 Well, I'm happy that you all, I feel like I'm at Comic-Con, we have to like line up before the panels. So hey, welcome. My name is Mike Demo, I'm gonna get to a buyer's slide. But first, we're Camp Toronto, sponsored by. These are the organizers, the wonderful organizers. You see them in the baby blue shirts. Without them, this camp wouldn't be able to happen. I've run these things, I know what it's like. So please make sure to say thanks to all them. Also thanks to all the sponsors, which the company I work for, Bold Good, is one of those sponsors. So definitely please support them, because we appreciate it. And without them, these camps wouldn't be able to happen, especially when the tickets are free and the sponsors really made it happen here. So with that. So now on to the talk. This talk is very casual. It's called Who Moved to My Editor, addressing Gutenberg's Facts and Fears. I give this talk for the first time at CMS Summit in Orlando. I'm very casual. So is anyone seen one of my talks before? Wow. OK. And you're still here. Amazing. So yeah. I'm very casual. So questions, comments, death threats, they're all welcome. And really, if you want to have a question or whatever, you can raise your hand. At the end, I hope to have a discussion, hopefully a lively discussion. If you want to fight it out, we have the ring in the center. So we can definitely deal with that. But this is a different talk that I kind of will talk about. I'm also going to talk about BoldGrid and how us and our plugins work. But first, the bioslide. I'm an evangelist for BoldGrid. My email is mikedemo at boldgrid.com. My Twitter, because Twitter is probably the best way to hold me, is MP Mike. My LinkedIn is Mike Demopolis, and my Facebook is MikeDemo42. So you have all that. What's an evangelist? Well, it's not religious-based. Which every taxi driver thinks it is. I travel around and I go to open-source events, just like this, because I have a passion for open-source and not just WordPress. Up until September, I was on the board of Juma. This is where everyone's like, ooh, how did he get in here? It was on the website, so you were fairly warned. But here's the thing, is I don't care what tools you use. And that's what I think I have a different perspective about Gutenberg, because I don't have the sky-est falling mentality. I have used the best tool for the job. So if that's WordPress, great, I love WordPress. I built thousands of WordPress sites. My full-time job is a WordPress evangelist. But if you want to use something else, that's great too. So we're gonna talk about WordPress and how this is all changing and some of this all stuff. So with that, this talk is based off of Spencer Johnson who moved my cheese, because this is who moved my editor. The quicker you let go of your old cheese the sooner you will find new cheese. Let's sink in for a minute. What's the old cheese? WordPress 4.9. What's the new cheese? That's up to you. That's up to you. It could be Gutenberg, could be a WordPress 5.0. By the way, pet peeve of mine. I really hope this Gutenberg thing dies and we start calling it just WordPress 5.0, because it's gonna be the editor. And WordPress 5.0, it's just the editor. And I really hope Gutenberg doesn't take a life of its own. I don't think that's gonna happen. I think it'll be Gutenberg forever. But at the end of the day, it's just a codename for the new editor. Our editor today is TinyMCE, the next editor, which by the way, same stock editor as Joomla, so in case you're wondering. Our stock editor today is TinyMCE. It's gonna be this Gutenberg thing. Okay, what does that mean? Anyone here a Disney fan? Okay, I'm probably the largest Disney fan you can imagine. I live in Minnesota and I'm in a Disney park at least once or twice a month. Yeah, I have annual passes on both coasts. You know, yeah, people are laughing like that's a joke, but it's really not. Yeah, that's $3,800 every year really hits home on those annual pass costs. For my wife and I, I am married. I found, well, I made a Disney fan out of her. So that happened. But anyway, this classic attractions. Does anybody remember the 20,000 Ligs under the sea attraction at the Magic Kings? Oh my God, yes, yeah, okay. So everyone has these classic attractions and I gave this talk the first time at a Disney conference so that's why this is Disney spin to it. So, and it's me, right? By the way, if you go to the bookstore, if they still exist, and you go to the Disney sects, the travel section, you go to Disney, almost every guidebook there I've contributed to. You can look at the index, find my name. It sounds very impressive. I have like a quote or like an editing credit or something, but I call my, I'm just a huge Disney fan. So there's all these classic attractions and it's these people, things that people love. So things like Misatoids, Wild Ride, Horizons at Epcot, or 20,000 Ligs under the sea. And Disney closes them. I mean, I can't believe it. Their job is to serve me personally and my wants. Right? They're not a business that's making the best case for the most of their users, I mean customers or guests, as they call it. Sorry, users are the WordPress thing. That's weird. So, and they close them. And they've closed dozens and dozens of classic attractions. In fact, a lot of people are like, if Walt touched it, it's sacred. We can't close it. Well, in the WordPress world, well, if Matt touched it, then it must be sacred, right? So, and they close them and new stuff opens up. It happens all the time. All the time stuff's closed. What's in its place right now? It became Winnie the Pooh, then Matt closed. And now it's an aerial dark ride. And if you look at the rock work, you'll see a Nautilus in the Outland of the Rocks. And that's how they play homage to that. And then Mr. Toad's Wild Ride closed. I'm a huge, you know, a year with Frog and Toad fan. That closed in Disney World, still in Disneyland. And now it's Winnie the Pooh ride. And the only thing they do to acknowledge that is that Owl, there's a picture of Owl in the attraction getting the deed from Mr. Toad. So, they're closing all these classic things and I don't get it. Like, I like the old way. Why do we need new stuff? But then, they opened up new things, like Pandora, the world of Avatar at Disney World, which is amazing. It's like California to a garden as the galaxy ride. And I thought I liked Tower of Terror before, but this ride's amazing. It's like they know what they're doing. So, I keep looking at this and thinking, this is exactly what's going on with WordPress right now. And I remember when WordPress first started, was anyone here doing web design before CMSs became a big thing? Like, my first CMS was PHP Nuke. And then these big CMSs like WordPress, Joomla, Mombo, started coming in. I hate WordPress. I hate WordPress. Because how can we give control to the users to edit their content? That's the worst thing in the world. That is, why would we do that? That's why they hired me. I'm the expert and I can charge what I want because the client can't do it. Oh, you want to change that color? Great. That's gonna be 85 bucks. You want to add that photo? That's $100. This was what the web was. I started doing professional web development. I know you probably won't believe it based on looking at me, but I sold my first website and then I was, I remember, I remember the front page extension on the server and how annoying that was. I remember using Dreamweaver and having to use those extensions to manage a menu on a 500 page corporate site. It's like Christmas lights, one thing's out, they only go out, right? So, I hate WordPress is gonna ruin my business. This is actually something that Nathan Ingram, who does iThemes training, said, it's his quote. And he was so scared of WordPress. And we hear this many times, time and time again. I hate WordPress, it's gonna ruin my business. This new thing for WordPress is gonna ruin my business. The sky is falling, the world is ending. Gutenberg is gonna destroy everything and it's the end of the world. Well, this talk is to help you find new cheese, that cheese may be WordPress, I hope it's WordPress, it may be something else. You might like different types of cheese. I mean, that's a thing, right? Which by the, you might like vegan cheese. I don't, but you may. Which by the way, hamburger menus, I think we need vegan menus. So, there's too many hamburger menus in the world right now. Let's talk about my story real quick. I've started doing professional websites in the 90s. I dropped out of college, never completed university. I had a chance to go work for Disney, ended up at the corporate office and then I got for hospitality and then I started doing some data analysis and UI stuff with them, not UI, but some data analysis with them and then I had a chance to start my own studio, my own website, freelance 100% on my own. Hated it. I hated having to be singly responsible for my income. That was not what I enjoyed. But what I did enjoy was, then I ended up working some agencies, working for Fortune 500s, I've done marketing, all this cool stuff in charge of huge teams and I've been very lucky. But then I got my dream job. When I was working at the Jumla booth at HostingCon in New Orleans, I got my WordPress job. So I can thank Jumla for my WordPress job, which is funny. As I was volunteering at the Jumla booth and this new guy was like, who I know, was like, hey, I got this new thing called Bold Grid. We need an evangelist for it. We need someone to go around and meet the community. It's not sales, it's just community. And I'm like, I love people. They don't always love me, but we can deal with that part later. So my job is just travel around and meet people. And I've met people for years and years and I've known people for decades. Like Joe Sonny, who is here, he's a local of Toronto. I probably met him over 10 years ago at one of the Jumla events. And now I'm starting to drag him to word camps and he's starting his first WordPress consultancy this year. So I mean, you're welcome WordPress. I got one Jumla person in, so there's that. But all in time and time again, I meet all these people that think that it's the end of the world and this is going to destroy everything. So Walt Disney said, times and conditions change so rapidly that we must keep our aim consistently focused on the future. We are so focused on going one direction and keeping it in the past. We always want to not have change. We don't think change is good. We think change is scary and we don't know why stuff has to change. I'll give you a decent example. So Jumla, when Jumla went from 1.0 to 1.5, I don't know if anyone remembers that or was using it back then, but they had something called a legacy plugin. And the legacy plugin allowed you to use classic plugins or extensions on the later versions of Jumla. Basically, it was their version of the classic editor. So you know who used the classic editor? People that used Jumla before the legacy plugin was the thing. You know who never used it once? Every new user into the project. Because really, imagine this and this is gonna happen with WordPress and it already is. You're new to WordPress or you're new to Jumla and you're like, okay, great. Oh hey, to use my theme, you gotta not stop using WordPress and you have to use this other thing. What's this other thing? Oh, it puts it back the old way. But why? Because it's the old way. If we don't keep up and it's a fine option but that's where the legacy plugin is not even an option anymore. Because it's like four versions ago. That's gonna happen. You gotta keep up with the future or you're gonna lose aim. And the editor's changed. Do we all think that? Who thinks the WordPress admin panel has stayed pretty the same the last, the whole cycle, last 10 years? Can anyone say that the admin hasn't changed a lot and you're happy with it? Yeah, it has changed a lot and every time. Every single time. I can point you to threads and GitHub repos and comments and tweets depending on how long ago it was. And blogger blogs and that every time, every one of these updates is gonna ruin everything. And for those of you that just need a reminder, this is every design change that we've had in WordPress from the beginning. This is not my video, I took this from YouTube. These are all the back end admins. So now we're in the fourth series, our current series. So that's from Themes to Call. And now, nope, nope. Next, next. This five point up. Change happens and every single time it's the end of the world. Does anyone here remember when the customizer came out? Does anyone remember how much everybody hated the customizer and how? I hate WordPress, it's gonna ruin my business. Dare we give people theme controls in this thing called a customizer. That's what they're hiring me for. Every single time, this is such a big issue. If you feel that giving clients control is gonna end your business, stop working in open source. I mean, why are you in open source? And if the answer is, is because it's free, that's a really bad answer. Open source, first of all, doesn't mean free as in beer. It means free as in speech. And the best analogy I heard is that WordPress is free like a new kitten is free. So there's always gonna be changes and Gutenberg is not gonna be the end of the world and WordPress five point out was just the next thing but there are options that we're gonna talk about it. Now, what is it gonna mean? What's it not gonna mean? Who here has tested the release candidate for WordPress five point out at all? Who here has tested the Gutenberg plugin? It's kind of been out. Yeah, okay. What are people's initial thoughts with what you've seen so far? You can raise your hand, shout it out, whatever. I will repeat what you guys say just for the camera and just FYI. Okay, somebody needs to say something. The direction. Okay, so your feedback, it's looking to you like, it's kind of taking what some of these page builders are doing and kind of bake it into the core experience. Any other thoughts? Yep, less than the page builders by a margin. Sure, so not quite as functional as the page builders as far as the macro control of the design and it's not quite as robust of a system. Paraphrasing. Is that what you guys say about us? Trumpian? True, we see way back and forth. That was his long set this time, if you see it shorter. I mean, we can always debate about that. Yeah, okay. There's a prior record. Excellent, great. One more and then I'm just trying to show, does anyone here like Gutenberg? I would love to see here someone's opinion on, okay. Can I get your opinion on Gutenberg? Okay. Which will be fine. That's why I'd like Gutenberg. Sure, so the paraphrase and I promise at the end, you'll all be able to share your voices because I don't have a horse in this fight. I really don't. Use the right tool for the job. That's, I'm passionate about that. Use the right tool for the job. If it's WordPress, great. If it's bold grid, even better but use the right tool for you guys on the job. So the paraphrase with that, that you tried bold grid and it broke a lot of stuff but you see some of the other possibilities like the API and the future vision thinking of it. That's very interesting. I'm gonna go back to Joomla just as an analogy just cause I know it. Does anyone here remember the Joomla 1.5 to 2.5 break? Yeah. Or the 2.5 to 3 migration that broke a lot of stuff? Right. So here's Joomla's side effect, right? So the is that they focus on technical improvements at the cost of the users. In my personal opinion, this is not an official project statement or anything. I'm not even in the project anymore but at the cost of the users because they're gonna push technical boundaries. Joomla was the first major open source CMS to mandate PHP 7. That's amazing from a security and performance point of view. You know what's not amazing for a user is when the host didn't have PHP 7 and there was a lot of them. So Gutenberg is kind of that first time this has really happened with WordPress where there's that line in the sand for technical reasons and other endeavors that there needs to be some sort of BC break. And I don't really consider about Gutenberg a BC break because there are still other options. They're not forcing you into Gutenberg. TinyMCE is not going away. Here's the hidden secret. TinyMCE cannot go away. It's in the core of WordPress. It might not be available to the editor as an editor but from a functionality standpoint unless they break a lot of backwards compatibility on the code level, TinyMCE is in WordPress core just because it's not necessarily the main editor doesn't mean its code is not in the project is what I was trying to say, which is my point. And to your point, classic editor which I will be talking about in a little bit has as a guaranteed minimum support of two years. What's TinyMCE? TinyMCE is the editor we have today. TinyMCE is a third-party editing tool. It's a separate open-source project that a lot of open-source systems such as Joomla and WordPress and a lot of other ones has adopted especially back when CMSs were really new as like, oh, that's a great editor. We're just going to take that and because it's open-source, they can. And a lot of projects took it. WordPress was one and there was a bunch of other ones as well, but TinyMCE is still in WordPress just because it's not in the editor just because the editor isn't available to you doesn't mean it's going away. And this is not the thing to fear. If you don't want to use Gutenberg, you don't have to. There are options. You can install, first of all, the classic editor. If you want your WordPress to stay all the same today, install the classic editor today when WordPress 5.0 updates, not a darn thing is going to change. I have 120 websites that are hospitals that I have on a freelance client before I took this job. I tested the heck out of the classic editor to 5.0 release candidate ramp. Not much happened. I told them, hey, be prepared to pay a really large bill. And I'm sad to say that bill's not coming. I'm really disappointed in that. Yes, if I converted them all to Gutenberg, to Gutenberg editor instead of the classic editor to TinyMCE, I could probably charge a lot of money. But I'm like, yeah, it's working. And they have a very specific use case, and they have lots of third-party database tie-ins and stuff. So for them, I'm just going to use classic press. And classic press, sorry, not classic press, classic editor, excuse me, classic editor. And that's fine. We're guaranteed a minimum or two-year support of that based on how the install numbers go. My guess, and this is my personal opinion, is that it's going to stay around for a lot longer. And here's the little secret that nobody talks about anymore. Wordpress is open source. You can make your own plugins. You know there are other editors today, besides TinyMCE on the plugin repo that you can buy and use for free? There's always going to be choices out there. You don't have to use Gutenberg if you don't want to. I recommend you try it. I recommend for new projects especially, you give it a fair shake. Because if you don't, in two years or a year, you're going to be left behind because every new user will eventually not even know what TinyMCE is. And you're just going to be the hipster that is focusing on classic WordPress. And I liked WordPress before it was cool and before all the kids were using it. Can anyone tell me what the mission of WordPress is? To democratize publishing. The mission does not say to make sure we leave it all the same for everybody to make you feel better. It's not a classic attraction. It's not untouchable. It is not this, we can't edit it and make it better because guess what? WordPress is meant for people to be able to get online and share their content easily. It's meant for everybody, not just for the hardcore developers or the end users. It's not the end of the world. Nobody says that when 5.0 comes out, you have to install Gutenberg day one. You may choose to do that and that's great. Test it first and then make your decisions. Choose to use the classic editor or not. Choose to use Gutenberg or not. Maybe use Gutenberg for new projects and leave the old stuff alone. Yeah? Editor, is guaranteed to be here for about two years? Yeah, January 1st, 2022, I believe, is the date they gave. I'm going off in memory, but yeah. 2021, yeah. January 1st, it's like two years and three weeks or something, but yeah. Okay, then what happens? We don't know because they said that they'll reassess at that, the project said they'll reassess at that time. So are we to take that between now and 2012, whatever it is, or 2021, we should be moving towards Gutenberg? That's what they want. Well, again, it's your decision. Even after that date, let's say in two years they stop supporting for the classic editor. You can still, TinyMCE already exists on the repo in other ways, you can get it in other ways. So you can just install a TinyMCE editor plugin and use that. You could also, I recommend over time, do start using the editor for your new projects because you can start to get to use, you can start to get used to it. My guess is they're going to support the classic editor long past that date. But at first, they were talking about in an official FAQ, only three months of support of the classic editor. As, and that was like what some people were saying, it was an official statement, but that's what people on the project was telling people. And now we have an official published at the minimum in two years. But there are other options too. Nobody says you have to use WordPress. There's classic press. Classic press is a fork of WordPress 4.9, which guarantees two years of security updates, same two-year problem. You're going to be on the same WordPress you know and love today. And it's going to be supported from a security point of view only. This is a third party fork. And a lot of people are scared of forks. A lot of people are saying, oh, it's anti WordPress to support forks, blah, blah, blah. You know WordPress was a fork of another project, right? It was a blogging system that got forked and became WordPress. Our code allows people to make it what they will. It's free as in speech. I am not advocating that everybody switches the classic press. I encourage you to please stick with what you have today. But if you are so adamantly against WordPress 5.0 that you don't want to use it, there's options. And it's the same WordPress you know and love today. I can't, I don't know if this project is going to survive or not. It might die in six months and you might be in a worse boat. And what's even worse about classic press is that WordPress 5.0 is going to go in one direction. Classic press is going to stay the same. And then new themes, new plugins won't be compatible because it's just going to be basically a refreshing of WordPress. But sometimes folks take a life of their own. I'm up for Mambo. See when here we met for Mambo. Mambo died in six months after Jumla Fort. The core team of Mambo left, started Jumla and six months later Mambo was non-existent. This is, I don't think this is going to happen with classic press, not in a long shot. But the code allows us to do this. So if you're so against it, no one's making you stay. So there are other options out there. So I recommend you do, oops, that's the next one. I recommend you will focus on Gutenberg and give it a fair shot. Make something with it. Because the Gutenberg that you remember today is not the Gutenberg that it was six months ago or a year ago or things like that. And it's the new editor. And if you don't want to use a new editor, that's fine, use the classic editor. If you don't want to use the classic editor, find a different editor. There's lots of options out there. But it's really kind of cool, the direction's going because it's making WordPress more accessible. And that's why I talk about our company, Page Builders. BoldGrid has a Page Builder, one of our nine plugins. Everyone's like, what's going to happen when Gutenberg comes out? I'm like, we're not really worried about it. Because it's just the next version of WordPress. We don't take you out of some proprietary system today and make you do our own thing. We just use the default editor in TinyMCE. We're taking WordPress. Whatever brings more people involved in the WordPress is the best thing out there. Can anyone tell me what the most popular website building tool on the internet is right now, like most popular content management system? It's actually WordPress. Can anyone guess what number two is? Yes? The most square space? Yep, can anyone guess what number three is? Yep, can anyone guess what number four is? Weebly. Then Joomla, then Drupal. Think about that. The second, third and fourth most popular systems that build on the internet today are closed source systems, not open source. So we need to be on whatever brings people into our fold. If people are open source, they own their content. It democratizes publishing. It allows people to have the power to own their content because content is freedom of speech. We are not building just web stores to sell widgets. We're enabling people to have the freedom to have their own life, make their own income. And open source allows people to do that. And things like page builders have to keep up. Things like burgers have to keep up. And here's my tongue in cheek answer to that, is we've had blocks before they were cool. So we have thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of block designs. So we're kind of excited about this new thing because blocks are there, yep. Why is Squarespace so popular? It's easy, less than an hour and a half you can create a basic website. The average mom and pop person, they're looking to just have the turnkey options. Because WordPress is not easy to the average person. Is it one of the easier CMSs out there? Yes, yes, yes, yes. But imagine if you've never logged in before. You don't know where to go. You don't know how to install a theme. You don't know how to add a menu. And that all takes a learning curve. So our company, Bold Grid, we've built tools to help that onboarding process. Which says, okay, we'll help you install the theme automatically, make your menus, and then slowly ramp you into WordPress. But there are very easy user experiences. Wix, Weebly, and Squarespace, from a user experience standpoint, has done some pretty good things. And we're taking some of those ideas for what Gutenberg is today. And what the vision long term is, because we're trying to help people create their own content. Yeah? Would you say that when you Squarespace, the page designs, if it guffs up, is just pretty or that WordPress, or is it really very... I mean, themes are themes. You can find pretty, I can find ugly ass themes in Squarespace, and super pretty ones in Squarespace, just like I can find those in WordPress or anything else. I just think I talk to people, and this is, we've seen this journey, right? Because Bolivar has done some studies that through hosting companies, 60 per... Was it 60? Yeah. 60% of people that install WordPress for the first time cancel their hosting accounts in 30 days. 60%. Because our tools are mostly for hosting companies to offer to their customers. And why do people get a WordPress for the first time? Because they have that friend, neighbor, colleague, maybe people in this room, they're like, oh, hey, Bill. Bill, I'm gonna do this new thing. I'm gonna do this Bitcoin cyber currency thing. I don't know anything about it. I need to make me a website. No, I don't want to mess with you. Just go to WordPress, it's easy, you figure it out. Then they find WordPress hosting, and then they're like, oh my God, I don't know what to do when I'm in here. And then they're like, oh, remember that Wix ad I saw on the subway, or on the Super Bowl or whatever. Oh, it took an hour and a half. I'm not thinking about the fact, I'm gonna pay 75 bucks for the rest of my life, and I don't own my content. And that's the danger is that people will be, are locked to these systems, and they don't know what they're buying. So the more we can make content that they own accessible, the better. So page builders, there's a lot of page builders that are Gutenberg ready today. There's a lot that aren't, that need the classic press editor, but they're all gonna migrate over time. And if you wanna use a page builder, great, use a page builder, talk to your page builder, say, hey, what are your plans for Gutenberg? And they might say, you know, you might get some answers today that are like, oh, Gutenberg, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then in a year from now, they have to catch up, but they won't. Because remember, let's look at our Joomla example. Who used the legacy plugin? Only people that are the hipster Joomla people, not the new people. Same thing's gonna happen for Gutenberg, yeah. At some point, I need to be careful because they've changed their terms a lot, a lot. Some of the proprietary page builders don't give you rights to your content. I'm not saying squarespace specifically. You need to check the terms because it varies by country and company. I haven't checked recently, I'm not a lawyer. But even when they do, the data export they give you is so useless unless you really know what you're doing. Yeah. It depends on the company. I have seen terms of use way in the past. That's probably changed. That some of them, they don't own the content or they have the right to monetize it or whatever. That's depends what tier you're on. If you're on some of their free tiers where they put ads in your site, then it's more of a Facebook situation sometimes where Facebook has the right to monetize your content but you might own certain things of it. But some of the old terms did say that they owned it but I have not looked at them recently and I'm not an attorney, so please don't take that as gospel. My whole point is I want people to have full control. So maybe I rights. The website was designed by Squarespace and so they wanted to take the previous owners off the website and put the new owners on and Squarespace said, sure, you're naming me. You're basically holding this Canadian company, Ransom. So the Canadian company said, well, you know what, I'll build my own and Squarespace said, okay. To be fair. So there's quite a legal battle going on. To be fair, that is probably in compliance with the terms that original company signed up for but a lot of people don't want to personalize it, right? I have one more slide and we have 10 minutes for questions. Just try this and then it's transferred. But I'll be in the hallway and they're gonna beat me up later, I promise. So Bill Gates said, quote, the sky is not falling, Luden Gutenberg or not, I don't care. Your neighbor? Actually, the quote is, the sky is not falling, Luden Gutenberg, I don't care, Bill Gates by Mike Demo. At the end of the day, figure it out. Gutenberg is an amazing advancement of WordPress. I believe it's gonna be good for the project. Trust me, I've been in Jumla when we broke backwards compatibility majorly, majorly talking full rebuilds from the ground up. Nothing, you know, twice. And I've had to tell bank clients, yeah, you know that $50,000 website and we have 150 bank clients. Yeah, you need to pay us another 25 to convert to the newest version of Jumla. And then a year and a half, then two and a half years later, hey, guess what happened again? Gutenberg is just a blip and what's WordPress is gonna become and the future of it is what I think's amazing. And if you don't know the new editor, that's fine, where's the plastic editor? The sky's not falling and you're not just gonna push back death another two years. And guess what? The new editor's gonna change and evolve. Figure out what's best for you, best for your clients and best for your sites and do it. But don't refuse to learn something just because you don't like it. I think it's prudent to focus on your existing clients, keeping them maintained and then figuring out if you wanna migrate them or not but spend some time and make the best decision. And at the end of the day, WordPress and it's just one option and figure out the best option for you. I think it's amazing option, but with that, we have time for like six minutes of questions. Yeah. So, can you speak to today how my plugins break because they haven't basically caught up? It depends how those plugins interact with WordPress. If the plugins interact with the editor, you may have some issues, so you need to test it. Other plugins don't touch the editor at all. They might do things like just on the non-page or post level. If it doesn't touch the plugin. Content or, I mean, they'll touch my. Those all touch your editor through short codes? Yeah. Some short, yeah. So, the whole, the cool thing about Gutenberg from my developer point of view is the, here's the vision. Short codes are kind of a pain, right? Because you have 80 short codes on a page and like two paragraphs of content. The idea with Gutenberg, one of the things is you don't, it's faster because you don't have to parse the short codes. As a plugin developer, you can just make the content in a block and stick it in there and not have to go through the short code workaround which really has just been a workaround through TinyMCE, but we've all kind of adopted we all know it's not the best strategy on the plugin developer level. It kind of takes out that. Some of them will be ready day one. Some of them will not be. You need to talk, you need to check with your plugin developers. They should say on their website or their blog or just ask them. I really wish the plugin repo had like a flag for Gutenberg compatible. I think that would be so much easier so that you could filter your plugins. I've made that, you know, I think that would be very useful. And when you choose plugins, the best thing I can recommend is make sure that they're updated regularly. When you look at the last update, if it's more than six months ago, probably don't choose that plugin because maybe that developer isn't supporting it anymore. And I always recommend the paid version of every plugin just so that when you ask them questions, like, hey, gonna support Gutenberg, it's important to me, you have more clout. I see a lot of hands. I know you were reading you and then you, so. I'm an end user. I didn't drop it like that long ago. I have a person I work with who's not in the room who handles all the other stuff. Yeah. And like you were saying, Church is a lot of money for it. I'd like to use Gutenberg, he doesn't want to use it. I would sit down and ask him why. Ask him what's the reason. Okay, and say that's a fair thing and say, okay, that's cool. Let's do the classic editor for now, but I do want to switch to the new editor long term. So let's make a plan to maybe in six months, nine months, you figure out the timeline to overtime because as new plugins come out, it's gonna become more easier to find Gutenberg-compatible plugins. You, sorry. Yeah, Drupal is, yeah. You actually made your Drupal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so there's a Gutenberg version of the editor with Drupal because you remember TinyMCE was really common and Gutenberg, it's all open source. The cool part is people can take this thing and use it in other places. So, you ma'am, I think the biggest, I think the biggest advantage for new people into WordPress, I'm gonna get to the question, for new people into WordPress, I think it's easier for people to visualize how something may lay out. It makes it easier to figure out how layout tools work to some extent. Also, what I like about it is you can, as a developer, you can make blocks, four minutes left, you can make blocks that then the content people can focus on and it really, it makes things like advanced custom fields not as necessary, but advanced custom fields is Gutenberg-compatible, by the way, so if you're using that, don't worry. So, I just think it makes it easier for people to visualize what might be in it. It's more of a front-end experience without having to do a front-end editor. That's my personal opinion on it. Yes. Yes, stage it, stage, stage, stage. And if you don't know how to stage, there are plugins to help you stage. Bold Grid has a free staging plugin that you can stage without having to have a separate hosting account or anything. Bold Grid staging. Bold Grid staging. It's not that fancy of a name. Your host may offer staging. Ask your host if you have a staging environment. If you want to test locally, local by flywheel is an amazing local test tool. Just test it before you go all in. And if you do go all in, have the classic editor installed unless you're 100% sure. And then so you can roll back in things and back up, back up, back up. That's just good for all things, just back up in general. I have time for like two questions. Yes, sir? Yeah, I'm good. Staging is essential, in my opinion, staging is essential for no matter what you're doing. If you're, it depends how you're doing your staging. Some staging, there are staging plugins out there that every time you update something, it takes it back up and then puts it into a staged environment instantly. And then you can just do a spot check, you have the site's good, press a button and then it gets merged. If you're doing major changes, then staging can take longer. But if you're just staging, just, okay, I'm gonna try this one thing, stage it, then push it. I'm a big fan of micro changes and not changing a bunch at once. So I always up do, I always stage with like one update at a time. And then cross check. That's my process, it might not work for you. But there are ways to stage. And if you don't stage at least, please back up before you do any changes or updates or anything because then you can roll back and know how to roll back your backups. Because a lot of people, they have these backups that they haven't tested and they're like, oh, the backup doesn't work. Well, that sucks. Last question and you've been waiting patiently. Yeah, so you said, yeah, very, yeah. I think Gutenberg is working through it as an engine or is it completely on the side when Gutenberg is working through it? I am not a core developer on the WordPress team. My understanding, I'm a community guide that knows enough to be dangerous. I am, you know, so. It's as far as a confusion. Yeah. It's just another editor. So Tiny MC is still there, but it's not using the Tiny MC hooks, but that stuff has to be in there for other backwards compatibility reasons. So, of how they interact with it, but it's not like it's not in the core because you're using one. Okay. Well, thank you so much. You can find me in the hall, beat me up out there. I appreciate it. Thank you.