 Hello, Psych2Go viewers, I'm Michelle Rivas, host of Psychology Roundtable on Psych2Go. Our guest for today's live stream is April Simkins, Ambassador and Advocate for the National Alliance on Mental Illness, also known as NAMI. April is also the mother of 2019's Miss USA, Chesley-Christ, who tragically passed away from suicide in January of 2022. April's fierce advocacy is changing the lives of so many people by spreading the importance of mental health awareness and suicide prevention. Thank you for joining us today, April. It means so much to us. Thank you for having me, truly. Absolutely. So can you tell our viewers a little bit about yourself and your background? Sure. I have been actually in human resources for close to 30 years. And even now, I'm a Chief Human Resources Officer for a national organization, and I love it. My job requires me, actually, to go out and speak. And so being the outward face of our organization is part of my responsibility. I have a speaking career that spans about 15 years. I work with two speakers, agents, and I typically talk on topics like corporate culture, diversity, equity, inclusion, leadership. And I've always shared about mental health. That's extremely important. We need diversity in HR, for sure. And so because of the seat in which I sit, I owned my own consulting practice, actually, for about 18 years until I sold that company. And so worked with literally over 1,000 organizations in 15 different industries and had a chance to hear from business owners, but also from their teams. And so being able to really talk about what's impacting workers became my passion. And of course, after Chesley passed, my focus shifted a little bit more to talking about mental health and its intersectionality with culture, diversity, equity, inclusion, and leadership. Absolutely, and you can't talk about mental health without taking into account different factors, such as race or socioeconomic background. So thank you for that. Absolutely. Thank you. And your story is incredibly inspiring. You've demonstrated so much strength and grace in the face of losing your daughter, Chesley, to suicide more than a year ago. Can you tell our audience who Chesley was in a bit about her background? Chesley was absolutely an amazing, amazing woman. And sometimes it's still hard for me to talk about her in past tense. So there are times when I will talk about her in present tense because she is always with me. She is an incredible, just an incredible individual to have met her is to love her. She was from a very, very young age, academically gifted. And she took that with her all the way into adulthood. She was also an amazing athlete, a musician. She was a philanthropist. She supported her community. Many people know her list of accomplishments, which includes graduating cum laude from what was then the number one honors college in the country at the University of South Carolina and the Moore School of Business. She got her Juris Doctor and her MBA simultaneously from Wake Forest University and then went on to practice law, complex civil litigation, licensed to practice law in two states. She competed in several beauty pageants and of course went on to win the title of Miss USA in 2019. And after that became an extra TV news correspondent. She was amazingly smart, but incredibly humble. Just an incredible athlete. She still has records at the University of South Carolina in the triple jump. She was outspoken, but she was introverted. She was, you know, she had a solid athlete physique, but there was still something very beautiful and feminine about her. She just, honestly, she just encompassed so many amazing things. She literally had the most beautiful hair. Like the hair goals. The thing about Chesley is she was actually born bald. She did not have much hair at all. I remember vividly having to like gather up a few strands of her hair and I wrapped some Scotch tape around it and then I would like snap the barrette to scum. So yeah, and then her hair started growing and just kept growing. Absolutely. And she ballooned. Well, thank you for telling us about her because she truly was an incredible and amazing woman. So thank you. And then, you know, Chesley was known to be extremely bubbly and radiant. There was truly a glow about her. Like people could see that on screen. And not just because of her physical beauty, but like you mentioned, because of her beautiful personality. And so many people were shocked when the news of her passing emerged. For our viewers, can you explain what high functioning depression is and how it can be difficult to detect in someone? Yes, very difficult to detect. And you know, there's some nuances around the use of that phrase high functioning depression because there are many people who are battling depression who still show up for events and still show up for their life. But the difference with high functioning depression is that it's persistent. And it has actually sometimes referred to as persistent depressive disorder. It's just always there. It doesn't really have a lot of the ebb and flow like a chronic depression. And so because someone with high functioning depression has learned to live in that state, it is very difficult to detect if there is some kind of major depression because they do appear to be coping very well. But that is unfortunately that ability to not be detected is part of that level of depression or that type of depression. You know, you won't see it. You likely won't see it or be able to detect it. There's many reasons why people with the spectrum of depression may not share it with someone and choose to keep it to themselves. High functioning depression because it doesn't where what we consider to be markers of depression, we just assume that person is perfectly fine and perfectly coping when an actuality they may not be. Exactly, thank you for explaining that perfectly. Chesley like so many others struggling with high functioning depression feel like they have to put on a mask often for like the world to see and they're unable to be vulnerable about what they're going through due to various reasons like you mentioned such as society or cultural expectations or even the stigma that's attached to seeking mental health treatment. So how do we fight that stigma so that more people feel comfortable about seeking health? You know, I love that you worded it that way. One distinction I wanna make about Chesley is there were some people who knew she was struggling. It just wasn't publicly known. It was not part of how she branded herself. For a number of reasons. If I rely solely on the words she left behind, she didn't want to burden someone with how she felt. And that is very common with people who either have depressive disorders or are battling high functioning depression. They feel like it's a burden for them and they don't want to burden someone else is kind of how they view it. You know, I think the way that we can begin to address that and help others to feel a little more comfortable is two-fold. One, we can't change others, but we can change ourself and there's so much power in just being kind and kindness for someone who is battling gives this measure of grace that makes it a little easier to not be okay when we extend a measure of kindness. And secondly, learn to be truthful ourselves. You know, we look at people who may be battling a mental illness and put the responsibility and onus on them to step forward and say, I'm struggling. When we, those of us who may not be struggling in that way aren't honest with how we're feeling. How many times do people say to you, hey, how are you doing? And you say, fine, when you know you're not fine or you know you're not okay or something's on your mind. So I think we all need to take that lesson in our own advice and be transparent with how we're feeling and it makes it easier for those who are struggling to also be forthcoming. Exactly, beautifully put. Thank you for that, April. And it's true, a lot of people, that stigma around it, not just cause people feel like they might be a burden but because of that horrible label of, you know, sometimes people will label someone crazy because they mentioned that they have depression or anxiety and that's extremely damaging. And so that's something that we need to, it's a societal problem, would you agree? Yes, I would. It comes from, you know, just lack of understanding. One, you know, one thing I've learned and talked about as a NAMI ambassador is that mental illness extends far beyond anxiety and depression and anxiety and depression is something that's more common, we feel that. But, you know, mental illness extends to those who are battling bipolar disorder, PTSD, OCD, eating disorders, it just extends beyond just those things and there's so much we don't know. We can't understand it. We are then reliant on that one individual to explain how they're feeling and there's a spectrum. And so it is easier for our brains to just say, this is bad, this is wrong, I don't wanna have to process this. When really we just need to give people space to just kind of be where they are and how they're feeling and the more we just give them space to do that, the more we're gonna break that stigma. It's okay to not be okay and we need to make that normal. Exactly, definitely. And, you know, another thing is you may not understand it but you can always approach it with empathy. There's no excuse to lack empathy when it comes to these situations. Even if you don't understand why the person's acting the way they are. 100%. And, you know, I see that happening in our everyday lives. I see it happening to people, celebrities on TV, especially. You know, we'll see someone, you know, we've all witnessed this, the cameras will pan in on someone who isn't smiling or looking gleeful. And then we've hit them with the barrage of how unappreciative they are of who they are and their status or something. And maybe they're just not okay in that moment. And that is where kindness and grace comes into play. Absolutely, you don't know what's going on behind closed doors. Absolutely. Thank you. And I wanted to know, April, how did you transform your pain into power despite dealing with such enormous grief? How did you find the strength to become an advocate for others? It was a hard, honestly. Living with grief is the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. And I remember, you know, not long ago, I think it's kind of during COVID, when there was a woman who was on a talent show and she was battling cancer and she was dying from cancer. And she's saying this beautiful song about being okay, even though clearly she was in a state of decline. And she said something I thought was really profound. And she said, you know, life is never going to be perfect. It's just not designed to be that way. We have to learn how to live in the imperfection. And I feel like that is almost a motto for me. I have to just learn to live in this place of partnering with grief. It just doesn't leave me. There are moments when I feel like I could, you know, take on the world. And then there are moments when I'm just, I can't climb out of bed. And I've learned to accept that that is the way life is gonna be. But it will not stop me from living. Amazing. That's so powerful. And it is so true, like grief, depression, those things, ebb and flow. It's not something that just goes away, like some magical cure pill or anything like that. Like it's learning to understand that this is a part of life. And you know, how do I cope? How do I deal? But also there's going to be happy moments too. It's not always going to be this way. Yeah. 100%. And you know, I saw this meme not too long ago that I thought was absolutely brilliant. And it said, we are not a machine. And it showed all the different places on a scale where your best could land. And today my best might just be getting out of bed and getting dressed and coming down and responding to a few emails. And tomorrow my best might be stepping on a stage in front of thousands of people to deliver a keynote address. I've accepted that my best isn't going to look the same every single day. And that's okay. That is the part of learning to be in the space of not being okay. Exactly. That's so powerful. That is so true. Sometimes I feel that way. Like I only have the energy to get up and brush my hair and brush my teeth. And that's it. Like it's just a bad day. And then the next day I'm here doing an interview with an incredible person like you. And you know, honestly, Michelle when we let our best kind of ebb and flow we stop comparing every single day to our best day. That's just, you know, it's just not attainable because there's so many life factors that play into how we're feeling at that moment or that day. And so just accept, I'm gonna do my best today and your best may look different today than it did yesterday, then it will tomorrow. Exactly. And comparing yourself to others and, you know that's, that's poisonous. Yes. Yes. 100% comparison really is the thief of joy. You just have to live your life. Thank you for that. And then, so I was going to ask what are some coping strategies that you, that you have developed that have helped you manage grief? One of the hardest that I've really had to work with my counselor on is learning to just feel what I feel. And that I think was most difficult. As a mom, I have six children. I married, I have my own small business on the side. I work a day job. It's very easy for me to learn how to kind of tuck my own feelings and emotions away, put them to the side because they got to focus on something else or my children need something or I've got to deliver on a deadline. And so that became almost a coping mechanism to not feel what I feel and to allow myself to compartmentalize and put that on a shelf for a moment. But now I've changed that script and I allow myself to feel what I feel. If I'm feeling happy, I will gafal laugh. I will laugh till I cry and it feels so good. And in those moments when I am just stricken with grief of missing Chesley desperately, I allow myself to feel that. I weep, I cry, I talk to my husband and all of that's kind of new for me. So I think one of the things I've learned to do is feel what I feel. Another thing that I've learned to do is practicing self-care, which is something else that, it's not that I didn't practice self-care but I've learned now to do it without the feeling of guilt. Yes, it is due for me and it's okay to do for me. Exercising boundaries, learning to say no and be okay with it. And I feel like I have to apologize or explain. Making sure that I continue to see my counselor focusing on getting sleep. I mean, so many things that I've done, ancillary that just helped take care of me. I've looked in so many areas where you can just support your brain and your mental health in general, like getting good sleep, like good nutrition, moving your body, all of those things help as well. Exactly, and that is so important. And you mentioned something really vital, which is you shouldn't feel guilt for extra practicing self-care, right? Why do you think so many people feel guilt around that? Like just forgetting the sleep that they need or for doing things for themselves. You know, I can't speak for everyone. I know that I felt guilt with self-care because I always felt like that's something that I should be doing something for someone else. You know, I need to be doing blank for one of my children or, you know, just to sit still that would self-care sometimes does look like relaxing and relaxing when I know there's laundry that needs to be done or there's dishes that need to be done. It's just really, it's hard to do that or just get up and go for a walk when I know that, you know, there's some vacuum that needs to be done. But I've had to learn to stop doing that. I think also, especially, and I bring this up a lot, as moms, we could judge so much. You know, you can do so much for your children and then society will label you as living through your children. If you back off and do for you, you get labeled as a bad mom who is neglecting your children. And so there's that pull and push. It happens in the workplace. You know, we work and become workaholics and that's frowned on. But then if you take long vacations, people just assume that you've got a luxury job because you can, you know, go take a vacation. And so I think that that adds to guilt we may feel for self-care, but you have to do it anyway. And learning about guilt, that was a, that's a process. Yeah, it's a part of the healing process too, right? It really is. Yeah. Thank you. I'm gonna switch over to our audience segment where we answer your viewer questions. I'm really excited. And so the first one is from Sam. Sam asks, I'm struggling with anxiety and depression and I'm afraid to tell my parents that I'm seeking treatment out of fear of them judging me or labeling me crazy. How should I know about this in April? There's a few things that I would say, Sam. First, if you're not already working with a counselor, work with a counselor because they can help give you the words you need based on the language you use with your parents or those close to you to make it safe. Second, decide beforehand how much you want to share. I can say as a parent, sometimes it is scary when you see your child struggling with something that you don't feel you can help them with. And so it does become easier as a parent to put up these defenses of not understanding. So determine on the front side, if you don't feel it's 100% safe, determine what you're going to share and let that be a longer-term process. So I feel like you have to share everything all at once. Thank you for that. And then the next question is from Jenny. She asks, April, you mentioned the intersection between race and mental health. How can we support more African-American women with their mental health? That's a great question. It really is a great question. And I've talked a lot about this, actually, this intersectionality of mental health and the Black community, especially as Black women. It is hard if you look at the racial structure, even in our country, there's an imbalance that Black people will feel. And then Black women being a double minority coming right out of the chute makes it even harder. And so there is this need to show more strength. And unfortunately, we can be our worst enemy in trying to mask that or being fearful of accepting help because of the stigma that may come along of feeling like you're not as strong or you're weak or you need help. And I can also tell you religion and faith is so permeated through the Black community that you're sometimes made to feel like if you have a mental illness or a mental health challenge that you're not spiritual enough or you're not prayed up enough or there's something wrong with your connection. And so it's easy to hide. I would say that the best way you can help Black women is to exude grace, dignity, and empathy. And the more you do that, the easier it is to just be in the space that we're in without having to feel like we need to put on a mask. Thank you for that, April. And then our next question is from Brianna. She asked, April, do you think that mental health classes should be mandatory in high schools and colleges? What do you think about that? Should it be a new policy? I don't know that we should make mental health classes mandatory. I do think that mental health education should be incorporated into every subject. It should become its own filter. Secondly, I would say getting mental health certified, mental health first aid certified should be something that we require of some students. Student athletes, I think, is great. There may be other student organizations that wanna adopt that as a criteria. I got my mental health first aid certification this year along with my emotional CPR certification. And they became game changers for me, someone who's talked about mental health for decades. That really helped you understand not just the spectrum of mental illness, but how to approach someone, how to talk to someone, and most importantly, how to listen to someone. So I think that's really, really important. It's not that I'm opposed to teaching mental health. I think we have to be careful with who is teaching that. And do we have a budget to put that level of professional on staff in our school systems? Thank you. And then, so we got a question from Eli. He asks, April, I recently lost a loved one to cancer a few months ago. How do I make my friends and loved ones understand that I'm just not in the mood to go out clubbing or to make myself available to them? First of all, I'm so sorry to hear that. Declaring your space is really important. And the expectation sometimes that people will understand is difficult. I'm sure, I shouldn't say I'm sure, but my guess is that they are trying in their own way to help you and maybe don't realize that you're not ready for that kind of help that you will ask or you will speak out when you are ready to re-enter who you maybe were at another point in your life. And if you are permanently changed, like I tell people, I'm not the April that I was before my daughter passed. I'm learning this new April because I'm living with a different kind of pain. I have been very clear with where my boundaries are. The things that I cannot handle, I'm very clear with a no and taught them to respect my no. Thank you. And then our next question is from Joel Demetrius Johnson. What is the most important thing to tell people who are new to their diagnosis of depression? This is such an amazing question because a lot of people who are newly diagnosed, it's so fresh to them and it could be very upsetting at first. They don't really know what to do about it. So what's your tip on that, April? I would say first of all, you're not alone. That there is lots of help and there is a community of support available connect with that community. There's something about depression and I can tell you that I struggle with depression before Tesla passed and it compounded itself after she passed and then got mixed with PTSD and other things that I've had to learn now to live with. And being in a community where people understand the language you will now use or the feelings that you will try to describe is so important. I talk about NAMI a lot. NAMI is a national organization and the one great thing about NAMI is they have physical locations over a thousand all throughout the country. You can visit them at NAMI.org and find a location near you. They do peer to peer counseling, family to family counseling because the diagnosis of mental illness impacts the entire family. And I love that they have that peer to peer so we can all talk about how we're feeling around that diagnosis. So that is the one thing I would say is find your community. Thank you for that. I agree. You have to have a support system. How has a support system helped you, April? Oh, tremendously. My circle got real tight after Tesla passed because I needed people who would give me space to not be okay. And those people who I've kept closest to me give me that space. And so that's great. I've learned to say no. I am a national speaker. And as a matter of fact, I just finished about a 10-day stretch of speaking on the road from a class at Harvard University to the national difference of state legislators and others. And it can be sometimes draining. And so I've learned to speak up for myself and say, no, I'm not gonna be able to join you for dinner. I need to go back to my room and just decompress and be alone for a little bit. And I'm perfectly fine to say that and just go and be by myself. So having a circle has helped, but also learning to speak for myself has helped me. It's called boundaries, right? Just, you know. Yes. Yeah, and anyone who violates your boundaries shouldn't be in your life, right? Like, you know. Absolutely. And you know, I'm glad that you said that. And another thing that I will share because family's hard, it's difficult. And we want our families to understand and we want our close friends to understand. Sometimes they just won't understand. And that's why connecting with people who understand is so important. You don't have to eliminate those people from your circle, but where you are now is gonna require a different kind of support. And so that's why I say, reach out into a community of people who understand. Includes. 100%. Well, that concludes our audience segment. So now I just wanted to ask you, April, what are your next up projects with NAMI and what are you doing next with your mental health initiatives? Thank you so much for asking. We're getting ready to start a podcast. It'll tick off at the first of the year. We're really gonna broaden the conversations around mental health. As I mentioned, I'm in human resources, have been for about 30 years. So they're gonna focus a little bit more on managing mental health in the workplace, but also how we manage mental health outside of work and in our regular lives. So I'm looking forward to kicking that off next year. I've got some other cool projects that you'll hear more about in the middle of the year. Aside from that, I'm going to continue stepping into big spaces to open up conversations about mental health. That's amazing. Are you gonna be at the Miss Universe pageant this upcoming year? You know, I'm not planning to right now, but that can always change. I absolutely adore every single person at the Miss Universe organization. They are a family to me, like no other. And Chesley's, Miss USA Sisters, the way they have embraced me and supported me and taken care of me. I feel like I've got like a larger group of children now that they love on. And so I don't know that I'll be there this year, but they are very, very close and near and dear to my heart. That's amazing and you deserve that support. So that's just amazing to hear. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, April. It was amazing. We'll look out for that podcast and all of your initiatives with Nami. And thank you to our viewers for your amazing questions and for joining us today. Have a great day, everyone.