 Alright everybody, thanks for being here. Our next speaker up, Caitlin Bowden, and she will be talking about fighting non-consensual pornography, the badass way. Take it away, Caitlin. Hello. So this is my first time talking at DEF CON or speaking to anyone here at Crypto Village. So thank you guys for having me. This is awesome. So I'm Caitlin. I am the CEO and founder of Badass, which a lot of people don't know. It actually means battling against demeaning and abusive selfie sharing. It's not just a word to use to describe us, but it has a little bit of a purpose, plus it's a little bit more news-friendly. So we do that. I just want to give everyone a heads up before I start. We're going to be talking about some things that, you know, it couldn't be triggering for some people. Some people could have experienced trauma similar to what I'm going to be talking about, and just want to give you the heads up that if you need to step out and take a minute, it's totally cool. But if you want to stick around and learn, that's cool too. Alright. So let's get started on how badass began. Now, a couple of years ago, I was in my mom's basement and I get a message from a friend that says, hey, you got these pictures online. I don't think you meant to have them online. Here's a link and I go and, you know, it led me to this website called a non-IB. I see, you know, the header where they call us sluts by state. I click and there's my high school. This is a tiny high school in northeast Ohio and there are people trading graduates from my high school like we're nothing like it's Pokemon cards. And I started realizing this is a thing. This is something that has happened to a lot more people and no one is talking about it. I had no idea this was a thing that existed. There is a whole subculture of people that get off on just trading news. And, you know, I just got really mad and I started contacting other victims. I would find them through social media using OSINT different search methods and reach out. And I'm like, hey, you know, I think if we maybe get together, we can actually do something about this. So we did. It's been two years. And, you know, in those two years, we have done more than I ever thought possible. We've, you know, helped shut down that website and non-IB. We, you know, worked with the police to make that happen, raise a lot of noise about it. We've helped get over, gosh, what are we up to, 20,000 photos down? Four victims. We've gotten quite a few arrests. We've empowered, you know, almost 3,000 at this point victims. We've helped them learn how to take their pictures down. And, you know, one of the things we want to do is we want to prevent it as well. So we, you know, go around to schools. We talk to kids. We talk to them about what consent means, what agency means, how to be, you know, safe online. We teach them about, you know, basic cybersecurity. A lot of people don't even understand, hey, don't use the same password for everything. I mean, basic things that we, you know, we know these things, but a lot of people don't. And that's something that, you know, we should change. All right, so how do we fight non-consensual pornography? If you notice, I throw a little Easter egg up there with the leads, but we fight it four ways, legislation, education, the empowerment of victims, and then tech. And tech covers a lot, but, you know, I just really wanted to use leads, so it worked. All right, the first one, legislation. So within a few months of starting badass, you know, we decided we're going to start calling senators. There were only a few of us, we were going to start calling senators, any elected official that would listen to us. And let's see if we can get a law in place. And it started working. I don't know how, I don't know how anyone was letting me do this at this point, but I worked with Senator Joe Shavone to bring a law to the state of Ohio. It's now in place. It criminalizes revenge porn, also known as NCP. But it, you know, we've also helped with the bad asses out in Montana recently got a law. And just recently I was down in Washington, D.C., introducing a federal law that would make it illegal across the United States. So here's a brief overview of the Ohio law. Now, I know, I don't know if we have any lawyers in the room at all, but there is a big problem with these laws. It, um, and that big problem is, is that there's an intense to harm clause. Basically, you have to prove that somebody means to harm someone else with the image, which is really hard to do. Proving somebody's intent behind their actions is incredibly difficult. Luckily, the federal law that we've introduced does not have that intent clause. So it's actually going to be really great for victims to be able to get some justice without having to deal with that whole intense thing. But hey, since you're all in this room, here's your intent, guys. You read it, you know now. If you share these pictures, you're going to harm someone. So don't do it. All right. So we're going to start with education. And we'll start off with the thing we hear most often. This would never be a problem if you just didn't take nudes. Now, that is the most victim-blamey, annoying statement, but we hear it every day. The issue isn't about taking nudes. One, there are about 13 different ways that somebody's nudes can end up online. Most of them have nothing to do with them taking the picture. We also deal with hidden cams. We deal with upskirting. We deal with deep fakes, deep nudes, photoshopped images, or somebody else taking the photo. I mean, these are very common things. There's not one way that image abuse can happen to a person. And they're all connected. These are all very serious crimes. They cause trauma to the victims that I think a lot of people overlook when they think about these sorts of things. Another thing that we've been doing with the education is going around to colleges. And we started going to take back the net where it's women online, you know, working to stop trauma, the sexual exploitation of people online, and, you know, how to prevent it. The next thing that we do, the second, or the first, or where was I? Second E of leads is empowerment. Now, I mentioned, you know, we've helped all these victims get their photos down, but we also teach them how to fight back. You know, we give them the tools that they would need in order to, you know, make sure this doesn't happen, to make sure that, you know, we collect the evidence and build a case. We've encountered a ton of, you know, responses from police that are not quite what we expected. Turns out they don't really know how to handle this sort of thing, especially, you know, in small town Ohio or, you know, any city that doesn't have a major, you know, police presence. So we actually teach the victims how to collect their own evidence, how to go through the EXIF data, how to, you know, we teach them everything they do that way that when they go into the police station, they're like, hey, I just did your job. Just please do the paperwork and get this guy. And that's really important. And when it happens to you, one of the worst feelings is how helpless you feel. But when it happens again, and you know that, hey, I can do something about this, it's not nearly as helpless. It's the most empowering feeling in the world. Mix that with knowing that there are thousands of people out there that have experienced the same thing you have. And suddenly, you go from a group of victims to, you know, this fierce ass gang that is ready to go out and, you know, just destroy an entire subculture that is harming people. And it's been really great. We've made some great friendships. And we've gotten to do some fun things. Another way that we empower victims is we give them a voice. We give them a platform. We are actively helping them go to their elected officials and help get these laws put in place. And a lot of people don't get the opportunity to do that, but we make sure they do because each of us has a voice. Our story counts, and that is something that, you know, needs to happen. These stories need to be told, and the light needs to be shined on something that has shined the dark for way too long. All right, so the one of the things, as far as tech, that we teach our victims is about OSINT. Now, this is something, you know, I didn't even know OSINT was a thing, actually, up until last year. I thought it was just really good at Googling. But yeah, no, we want to teach them the different things that they can use to hunt down the person that posted them. A lot of these websites, they make these people register, they have usernames, and if they have usernames, chances are they used it before, somewhere. Where can we find it? How can we tie it to that person? And we teach them how to do that, how to build a, you know, solid chain of evidence that can be used in a courtroom to prove, hey, this person with this username is actually the one that shared my images. Now, the other thing that we did, and I don't know if you guys have heard about this. With tech, we had a friend of ours develop something that could bypass the flood detection on that website I'd mentioned earlier, a non-IB. It could bypass the flood detection, and it could empower the victims to just go through and fill the entire image board up with pictures of Shrek. I mean, it's not hurting anyone. It's nobody, you know, nobody's getting exploited. He's not complaining. So we figured it wasn't going to be a big deal, you know, and we ended up getting knocking so many images off of that board that as soon as somebody would post a nude, it would just be dropped off. It would be gone because it just, we were able to start so many threads of Shrek. I mean, we thought it was creative. Kill a few boners and get some pictures down. So that's what we were doing as far as the tech. We also have some other things in the works, ways that we can notify victims, different methods that we can use to track pictures and where they go, and we also really, you know, one of our big things is educating victims and educating the public about ways they can stay safe with this, you know, and whether it is talking to a sex worker about, you know, how they can possibly watermark their nudes to make sure that they're not being shared or pirated somewhere else or, you know, teaching people about EXIF data and making sure that they're not, you know, accidentally sharing way more information than they want to just by sharing a picture with somebody they trust. And that's a big deal. A lot of people aren't learning these things. I feel like it's almost our responsibility to tell everybody how to stay safe online to really promote, you know, more, you know, strong past phrases and account security and things like that. So that's the four basic ways that we do things. And we, you know, it covers a lot, honestly. In two years, I was a bartender before I started badass. So it's not like I have some advanced college degree. It's not like I have any idea how laws work. I still don't. But we are getting things done. And this is just one little corner of online exploitation. There's a million and a half other things that are going on, you know, going on on the internet that need to be dealt with. These need to be addressed. People need to stop being harmed these ways. And you have to hit it from all sides at the same time because if the minute that you move from one to the other, they're moving too. These websites, you know, they switch servers. They are switching their URLs. They're changing everything faster than we can keep up. There's new ones popping up every day. There's new methods being used. We have found these trading circles on Slack, Discord. Oh, gosh, I can't even think. I'm trying to list them all. There's so many. And the minute that we think we have a handle on one, it moves to the next. And it is very difficult. It really is like playing a game of whack-a-mole a lot of times. But I think that we're actually accomplishing something. I don't know. Y'all showed up here. So I guess people are liking what we're doing. So anyway, let's talk about how to sex safely because I'm not going to tell you you shouldn't do it. You just got to do it safely. It's your body. It's your agency. If you want to share that with somebody that you trust, you should be able to. I think that's important. It's what you want to do. Modesty empowers some. Nudity might empower someone else. It's not my place to judge. I'm just here to make sure that no one is being exploited and harmed. So first things first, when I said somebody you trust, I really meant someone you trust. Not somebody that is pressuring you. Obviously, if someone's pressuring you and you're not comfortable with it and they're still pressuring you, then they're probably not someone you want to send it to. They just sound like a jerk. So set your boundaries, stick to them. Now, my lawyer always says she is really grateful when somebody does this, and that is before sharing a picture with your partner, explicitly say through a text message, hey, I don't want anyone else to see this. Grab a screenshot. Your lawyer, whoever you hire, everyone will thank you. They know. You have it in writing. It's always good to have. Communication is key. Talk to the partner before sharing. One of the big things that people run across is being out in public. You're hanging out with your friends, and suddenly you're in a relationship and somebody just sends you a picture. They didn't tell you and you open it up and like, oh, it's a little awkward, slightly, but yeah, always ask. Get consent. Don't be sending unsolicited pictures. Make sure that that person knows that they're getting it. It's welcome and just get consent. It's important. The other thing is, and this is where my story had gone awry, is making sure that your partner is also able to keep their data secure. If they are not protecting their own pictures, their own information, how do you expect them to protect yours? I mean, I mentioned earlier that, you know, my pictures have been online. I had sent them to an ex-boyfriend. He was having a bad day at work. I'm like, I know how to make that better. And he was somebody that didn't even lock his phone. No passcode, nothing. And we broke up and I figured, you know, he would delete them. I asked him to, he didn't. But somebody actually went and stole his phone to get the pictures. And that is something that is really common. I keep talking about these circles where people like to trade these news and they make a game out of it. What is the craziest way I can acquire these pictures? Whether it's, you know, sneaking into the break room and sending, you know, getting ahold of their coworkers' phones and sending it to themselves. Whether it's figuring out a password, getting into the iCloud or your saved Snapchats. Whether it's catfishing, whether it's blackmail, whether it is buying old phones or accessories that people have sold to, you know, pawn shops or tech places, you know, used tech stores, whatever. They like to go through and find it and they build these databases of people by their full names. They collect them and then they retrade them over and over again. I'll give you Jessica for Jennifer. I'll give you this person for that person. If somebody drops five pictures of this girl, I'll drop two that I have that no one's seen before. Literally, we're Pokemon cards in these circles and so it is really important to make sure that not only you are keeping your pictures secure but that anyone else that might have them is also keeping them secure. You know, make that a deal breaker. Oh wait, you have shitty passwords? Never mind. Like, yeah. So this has never happened to somebody and there's a very good chance that a good majority of this room has had pictures shared with them without their consent. At last time I saw a study on it, it was up to 15%, I want to say, of Americans had their pictures shared without their consent or had their pictures threatened to be shared. So if it's happened to you, these are what we recommend that you do. Now the first thing I want to say before any of this is breathe. I promise you it's gonna be okay. You will get through this. You will survive. It is a body. It is sex. These are natural things and somebody's trying to shame you for natural things. That's a little ridiculous. But I promise you will get through this. Next thing you want to do is screenshot. Document everything. Even things you don't think are gonna be important. Get the header of the website, the URL. You want to get every bit of that page that you appear on. You never know what's gonna be useful. You never know if you're gonna see a username on there that you didn't expect to. You didn't know if you're gonna see a link that maybe you didn't notice the first time. Screenshot it. You want to talk to somebody about what's happening? If you're not comfortable talking to a partner or a parent or a friend, we have a website. I'll put it up at the end. You can always email us. No judgments. We're nice. I promise. Next thing you want to do is file a report with police. Even if you're not in a state that has laws, and there are still eight states out there where it's totally legal for somebody to share nudes with someone else. It doesn't matter if they're, as long as the person is overage, there is no consequence whatsoever. But even if that's the case, you still want to file a report. You still want to make sure that that is on record. That's how we get laws passed. Enough people complain. People get loud. Then that's how things happen. Now, once a report is filed, you want to give the police a little bit of time. Anyone that has ever worked with law enforcement, you know that these work, things go a lot slower than you would expect. We've had cases that we've helped out on that have gone two plus years. And that's just collecting the evidence. Just before it goes to trial, we're not talking about court dates being pushed off. That is just to collect the evidence to get to grand jury. And it's going to take a while, especially if it's an image of an adult that tends to be a lot lower on their list. One of the things that we deal with a lot is images of child abuse. So those tend to move a little bit faster, and then that's a couple of years. Because there's a lot, you know, they have to go and find all the other victims and find out what else is out there. And then obviously, you know, you can contact us. We will help. This is what we do. So, yeah. These are, you know, just things that you can do to make sure that you're safe. Things that if this has happened to you, you can do to fight back. And one of the things I always want to talk about is how to be a good bystander with this sort of thing. You know, say you're hanging out with your friends and one of them says, hey, oh my gosh, look what's so and so sent to me. I mean, that's, so many people just blow that off. Like it's nothing. But really what that's doing is contributing to an entire, you know, an entire behavior that is absolutely unacceptable. And one of the things that I think as a society that we need to change is really start calling each other out when we see bad behavior. It doesn't matter if it's your friend. It doesn't matter if it's somebody that you care about. Be like, dude, that's shitty. Do not be showing that picture to this person. Don't, that's not what you should do. Delete that. I'm going to go tell her. That's not that hard. It's what needs to happen. I think that's more of a societal issue. But that is something that we all need to think about. You know, how can we, each as individuals, do something to make the world a little bit better? So, all right. It looks like we've reached the end. I am very happy to do any questions, answers. If anyone wants to, you know, talk or have any questions of anything. Hey, everybody. Sorry. We're going to do questions up in the middle here. Please walk up to the mic. I will be mic. And we have plenty of time for questions. So my only request is please walk up. The only reason I ask is if we start playing past the talking stick, it'll turn into that beach ball at high school graduation. That's fair. No worries. How do you handle working with law enforcement either uneducated or unwilling to help victims? It's actually incredibly common where they're uneducated and unwilling. A lot of the police haven't caught up with the internet yet at all. They don't even know how to begin to handle it. They don't know how to even approach it. We've also had to deal with police that don't think that this is something that should be a crime. I had an office the other day that insisted that because the victim was married to a partner, even though they had been separated for two years, that what he did was solely legal. Posted a full name on a website that was coming up in Google searches, but it is legal. And I mean, I don't know if this is the right way to go about handling those situations, but usually going and taking the time to sit down with them and explain, one, what the laws are, how they can do, you know, start to approach their investigation, that helps. I also yell, that helps. I can be a little scary. But it's something that we come across a lot. Police don't necessarily know what the laws are in their state. They don't know that, you know, in Ohio that it is illegal for people to share pictures of adults. If it's not a child, and when I say child, I mean prepubescent, we've had issues with police even investigating teenage pictures of like big issues where they say, it's too much work. We can't prove how old they were in that picture. So this is something that we come across, and each case is going to be different. So I have a question. I don't know if you've been aware of the comments between CloudFare and HN and how they finally got banned. And I was wondering, how did you feel that will trickle down to what you were doing in fighting and CP, and if you think it will help, you push for those kinds of websites that are completely just like, you know, First Amendment, we refuse to do anything. And do you think that the decision by CloudFare to finally get rid of HN will help you and Badass Army in using that kind of technique to shut down these websites? Do you think it's going to be a hindrance, like the end of, you know, in the long run, or it's going to actually help? I think the fact that CloudFare is starting to take a stance on where they feel as a private company, the differences between free speech and harming others is, I mean, yes, it took this long for them to do anything about HN and they ignored many, many requests from a lot of people about some very serious crimes that were happening. That's something we've been dealing with a while. We've been reporting child abuse images to them forever and we were having issues with them handling that. I think it is a private company's, you know, responsibility to start maintaining a, you know, a code of conduct, in a way. I can't think of the word right now. It's that day. But to enforce their own terms of service, to make some rules, and to have some morals. Yes, there is some gray area when it comes to free speech and what that means to different people, but that's something that more companies need to take a look at and see where their line is. Because I was just wondering if you think it will make it easier because it took them, like, 40 people dead for them to do anything. And you know, because I've worked battling CPV on the internet as well in my own time and I know how hard it is and I just want to know if you think that now that it's not going to take us, like our community, wait until somebody gets killed over this for them to do something. I just want to know if you think that's going to help or if it's going to help for us not having to wait until somebody gets completely slaughtered through this for companies like that to just do it without giving us the run around forever like they have. I fully agree. I think it's ridiculous that it is taking people's lives ending in order to get somebody to pay attention. But I also think it's one of the reasons that that's happening is not necessarily because somebody's lives ended. That's not how that's, that's not what happened. What happened is people got outraged enough and it looked bad for their PR. And that's what needs to happen in order for them to do anything. If they could have kept it quiet that it was on HN and that they had been hosting it, if they could have just made that go away, then guess what? Cloudflare would still be covering them. It'd be fine. You need to be loud. You need to make noise and get people pissed off. There's a lot of anger in this world and it can do things. Okay, so I don't necessarily have a question but more of an observation. Would that be okay? Yeah. All right. So this is DEF CON and this is a massive gathering of hackers and information security professionals who has taken it upon themselves to guard the information. And it could be any information. It could be like simple as like personally identifiable information. It could be state secrets with the potential to kill a small population. We've taken it upon ourselves to guard this. So when someone decides to like leak nudes of other people, I would have to ask myself, could the perpetrator of those crimes really be trusted to carry out the duties of protecting others' information right there? So when we look at these perpetrators and what they do, we can't just simply look at it as merely a offense against one individual but rather as a threat to an entire community right there. But that's just my two cents. No, you're very right. Thank you. Thank you. Really, that was great. Thank you. So obviously you guys deal with, you know, CP and you can't tell me that you don't come across forms daily of these images being shared with some really, really, really, really disgusting stuff with them. How do you and everyone else have, I guess the mental fortitude to handle this on a day-to-day basis? Tequila? You know, we tried to do it once. Okay. We, you know, we are a team and I am so grateful for the fact that I do have a great team. They're right over here, guys. Everybody wave, stand up. We all know each other. And there's more of us. There, you know, we're global. We have a constant, sometimes infuriating group chat that is just going on 24-7. And we call each other out on things. We talk to each other. Hey, you're not, you're not doing okay. Why don't you go take a nap? Why don't you go take a night off? And we have to do that. I am comfortable enough to say I see a therapist. You have to. I've gone and I've helped out with CP cases where I've had to go and help with the evidence when they collected the laptops and things like that and go through and help the police decide, okay, well, can we contact this victim? Can we contact that victim and help them build a case? And gosh, there were a few days where I went through thousands and thousands of images of child stuff. Just nonstop for eight hours. And that's what you have to do. And you don't forget that and it does take a mental toll on you. But I know that in the end it's going to be for the best. Mostly that's what really pushes it and keeps the mental fortitude going is, you know, yes, this sucks for me, but I get to go make a change. So that's important. Hi. So thank you for the talk. I unfortunately missed like some parts of it. I got lost. Anyway, so my question is like you mentioned that the team is global and I was wondering like what's the status right now about working with other countries, like especially those countries that these kinds of things are shameful and just swept under the rug with people like dealing with these things throughout their lives and they're like so ashamed to like even talk about it. Well, we, it's been come global just because more people have found out about us and reached out. There are certain parts of the world that that's not an option. There's no way that they're finding out about us. One, you know, either it's because they don't have access to our website or any of our press, things like that. We have tried to reach out as much as we can. And as far as the other countries where it is really shameful, actually Marley the other day she said something that really hit home with me and that is that we get to decide where our private where our private parts are. Like you get to distance for some people it's their shoulders. They don't want their shoulders on the internet. For some people it's their breasts, you know, it's their whole body. Everybody has their limit and what to them is privates might not be the same for someone else. And so we've been dealing with a lot of countries where the cultural difference is very big. Where an ankle is considered racier than, you know, what a pair of boobs here in America. So in those countries we are mostly just trying to catch up and learn those cultural differences and reach out to victims and find out what these consequences are and see where the, you know, interest lies as far as making sure that we can get some laws in place. So it's a huge issue. Over in South Korea they had spy cams in bathrooms that were going on. It was thousands and thousands of pictures of women going to the bathroom were being uploaded and the women, you know, they rose up and said we're not going to do this anymore. It was like the badass army but just out of, everyone was just angry. It was actually really cool but down in South America there is nothing getting done at all. We've been trying. There are no laws even in talks of happening but I think that's something we're going to be working toward here very soon. Hi, I'm wondering about like what the civil law landscape looks like for this like in places where maybe you can't actually criminally like prosecute the perpetrator. Have there been successes in like suing the shit out of them for emotional distress? Yes, there have been. We always want to recommend if you don't have the option for a criminal suit to work on a civil suit. We have a lot of lawyers that we connect with that'll work either pro bono or at least at a discounted rate or just for a portion of the win of the money once. We recommend people do that. There have been a lot of successful cases. There was just one. I want to say it was $10 million. So there's money and sometimes with some people, the criminal repercussions are not going to be as big as when you hit them in the wallet. So we always recommend people do that. At the very least getting a lawyer having them being able to write a letter is enough to scare someone into removing the pictures that they've put up. So there's been a lot of settlements a lot. And most of the time they settle because you know it's really ironic these guys that share these pictures they really don't like people to find out they share them. They don't like being exposed. I mean who would have thought? But they usually will settle to keep it quiet and settlements are usually around five figures. We have a couple more. Line on up people. I know standing can be a drag. So please, we're so good for time with the speaker. So I just wonder what is your turnaround time for if images are posted and you guys start sending letters. What's your turnaround time for getting those images removed? The other follow up also is once an image goes to a famous site how hard is it to then track everywhere else that's picked it up? Well the first question about what our turnaround time is, it all depends on the website. We have websites that we work with that will get it down pretty much instantly like within an hour or two of us sending a letter. There are some that will take a week. It depends on what site, whether or not they've talked to us how serious they are about making sure this isn't being shared on their sites and how responsive they are to DMCAs. And then the second one was how do we make sure it's not anywhere else? Google image search is a wonderful thing. A lot of people don't know how to use it. I didn't when it first happened to me. But that does help a lot. Also knowing where to look. You know, once people talk to us, we usually recommend hey, you might want to check this site. Here's this search engine that's going to go through 4chan. Look for things that are going to, if it's out there anywhere else. So it's kind of a crapshoot. Sometimes you find it, sometimes you don't. But we do our best to make sure we can. So you were mentioning that the sites would be like reliant to take action. And so when you catch a guy sharing something that is like non-consensual is the guy the only one that is held accountable for? Or for example does the page also has responsibility for that? And also another question is when you mentioned the case that the guy didn't share the pictures per se, but he got hacked, is he also held accountable for it? Or only like the first person? Well let's start with the first question as to whether or not websites are being held accountable. And that's actually a hot topic right now. There is something in the CDA. It's a law that basically says that websites are not being held accountable for what the users do with it. And a lot of sites have been hiding behind that. Basically if someone shares a picture of you that you don't like or slanders you on Facebook, you can't go Sue Mark Zuckerberg. But more and more it's a statute called CDA 230 and more and more people are fighting against that and making some changes. There's a lawyer out in New York named Kerry Goldberg who has been raging against CDA 230 and she's setting precedence to possibly have it removed. I'm not saying that the website should always be held accountable like Facebook. I don't think you should be able to Sue Mark Zuckerberg because someone slandered you. But I think that having some consequences for the websites knowingly hosting illegal content is something that should happen. There needs to be some sort of consequences there deterrent. And the second question was now in my case where you know if a boyfriend had his cell phone stolen or if a guy is hacked depending on the investigation honestly because we've had police that they're just going to go for the first person they find that they can arrest for this crime. They're not going to follow through, they're not going to find out if that person was really hacked they're just going to say well we know it came from them. And we've run into that it really there is no way that these things go. I don't think that somebody I think it all depends on each individual case really. Hi. I've got more of a comment than a question but first of all I want to thank you for everything that you and your team are doing around this. You know there's a lot of bad things on the internet and I think it shows a lot of great character and fortitude for you and your team to take these horrendous things that happen to you and turn it into something positive. I've got two teenage daughters and I have a talk to them about the website and the work you're doing and you know it's unfortunate that I have to have these conversations with them but better to have them informed and empowered than ignorant so thank you. Thank you. Keep doing keep keep talking to your daughters. Keeping that communication open and talking to them about these difficult things is the best thing you can do to make sure this doesn't happen to them really. Thank you. Back with another question has SESTA FOSTA impacted any of this? All right well that's gonna I'm gonna answer that in two ways actually right behind you you've got like the SESTA FOSTA expert that's out all right there and we are doing a meet up a little bit later over in the Sin City room and we're gonna be covering a lot of that but when it comes to SESTA FOSTA what it's been coming down to is it should be getting used for what we do but the issue is everybody's going after the low hanging fruit of sex workers rather than it being used to really you know help people that are being exploited they're using it to shut down consensual sex workers and I think that's really wrong it's not being used the way it should it needs to be remedied that's for sure hi, hi so I thought one of the questions that I had that I thought would be really great maybe for people in this room to be more aware of is as someone who also works like in sex technology what have been some of the double standards that you've faced of just you know being professionally invalidated with the work that you do in terms of using sex tech and using OSINT and kind of solidifying yourself as like this security professional and for everything that you've accomplished and like I don't know maybe if you could just share some of those double standards with us so we can see how we can all be more aware and be more supportive of the victims that you help and also your entire team oh well some of the double standards that we've encountered have been obviously you know there's a little bit of the gender double standards that is a really common thing that I know that we all know is an issue in this industry and that's something that we I think a lot of people are working on and hopefully going you know changing I hear that this is the most gender equal DEF CON as far as attendance that has happened yet so that's I mean we're working on the just that part now when it comes to what you were saying about you know not just a double standard but like some of the things that we've heard based on being you know people that are pros we're sex positive we support sex workers we want to help make sure that they are not having their pictures spread all over with their real names and we do experience a lot of flak from that I get a lot of email I think a lot of it's really in a way they don't need these guys don't even realize that they're you know complimenting me I was called uh oh gosh what was it I had somebody said I was like the white knight of sluts and horrors what oh yeah we have that I have a trophy for that one I had that my friends had that made but yeah we get um people that get really angry and they say that you know you're promoting promiscuity you're promoting slutty because heaven forbid anyone promote women enjoying sex it's a little it's ridiculous but it's something that we do see quite a bit um but I also want to mention when I talk about double standards and things like that that it's not just women I use a lot of gender language when I talk about this but it happens to men extremely frequently um there's a lot of black mailing scams out there with the cam girls and suddenly they've got a picture of you um you know having fun with the cam girl I think that's how they word it in the emails they use but it's just traumatic for men it's a extra danger to the LGBT you know that whole community of being outed without their permission it is um it's not just women it's a majority women but it's not that's for sure I mentioned that earlier but the whole double standard thing had me reminded me um but yeah no we definitely do see a double standard when it comes to uh promoting sex not promoting sex work but helping support sex workers and fighting for them we see that a lot so any other questions alright thank you so much thank you for having me