 No client has ever developed a product in 48 hours But you want us to develop a message to sell that product and explain it in a way that they'll encourage people to buy it Change behaviors and everything and you want us to develop that message in 48 hours Hello intelligent beings of this marvelous planet Welcome to the 42 courses podcast and thank you for being here Today we are honored to speak to Derek Walker who is the owner of advertising agency Brown and Browner Derek has worked in advertising for nearly 20 years on an enormous amount of impressive clients and accounts He's very active on twitter and linked in in the advertising community And is also currently working with the american advertising federation to help introduce advertising as a career choice for minority students As Derek states when he isn't rescuing small children and puppies He's hard at work helping to educate people to the power and benefit of advertising This podcast is jam packed full of Derek's wisdom realism and important messages for the copywriting community It's totally full of juicy goodness So welcome the fantastic Derek Walker. Hello. How are you? Hi, I'm really good. I'm so grateful to speak to you. Thank you for your time Thank you You are a bit of a copywriter guru on twitter and linked in Can you can you explain to the list is what what you what you get up to these days for clients? I'm old school So we do for clients. We do whatever the client needs I don't believe in specialization You know, there there was a time when copywriters and art directors had to learn the client's business Not that I know the business as well as the client, but I understand What's pertinent to me doing my job So, you know one day you're doing construction equipment next day you're doing Organic food You know It's and that was the joy of being in copywriting early on so when I opened the agency in 2009 I opened it under the old model You know, I don't specialize in clients. I've done cars, but I wouldn't specialize in cars because that's how cars get crappy we do work For whatever a client needs right now though, we are um Mainly focused on small and medium clients because I think the Mount Everest Is to take a client that isn't no and grow them into a mega brand You know, everybody's chasing I want procter and gamble. I want coke. I want apple. I want google whatever, but they're already huge What makes widen and shy it's so different as shy it took this little computer company called apple That nobody wanted because IBM was the big beast on the block And look at what shy and others have done with that apple Look at what this little independent shop in portland, oregon did what named widening kennedy did with nike They didn't get nike when nike was big They had nike when nike was nothing kids cried if their parents brought them nikes when when widening kennedy got it, you know We we if my parents bought me a 1990 and nike used to be 1999 They were cheap I'm like, no, I want to I want the the chucks from converse that you bought me Nike, oh, you know in kids would give you a hard time rappers were rappers were wearing puma and adidas And you brought me nike So think about what widen did to bring that so when I opened the agency I thought You know what I've worked on those brands that are established But I've never been able to work on a brand where we go from ground zero or close to ground zero and grow it out And i'm still chasing that and that's what we're chasing. We um, we do that okay, and I've seen your video in in the 42 courses the copywriting course And and you speak very eloquently about the the power of listening. Is this is this the most important or the most powerful tool for a for a copywriter It's a time I think linking listening and being curious So I guess Being curious leads you to be listened to listen Or does listening lead you to be curious? I don't know which one comes first Which you need both of those um, if you're not willing to learn how You know the massive amount of information that copywriters have to consume It's it's it's hard to explain the system think about it. We've got to read all this information about a client's product or service Then we have to think about their customer Or their potential customer We have to understand them and then we have to take what the client's saying And translate it into a message that that customer wants to hear or it's beneficial to the customer I don't know what we would call that it's not Not just translating but it's it's manipulating and discern it's a whole bunch of other kind of terms, but It starts with being curious if you are not curious then you don't dig deep enough But if you don't listen you don't hear the real The real notes that are in there There's that Ogilvy quote. I think isn't it who says that the The the great copywriters are the ones that are interested in in everything or the broadest range of things Yeah, which one of my friends said to see those copywriters the keepers of the most the the keepers of The most of useless knowledge until it's not useless, you know It's like you're sitting there and you're going why am I learning about this stuff and then later It's something pops up and you go. Oh, I know about this. Did you know the whale shark is you know? And it's like oh So, yeah, but It's really Amazing to consider In a world that we we we think um People are short attention span How much knowledge and information copywriters are just soaking in and I know this is about copywriting, but let me also say Good art directors do the exact same thing Because they're in the same meetings and they're there so I think to your question to answer your question Being curious and listening are great Then follow that with collaboration. I need that art director I need whatever partner we have because You need somebody that's going to go you may have missed this you know, um Some people believe the strategy serves that purpose. I I think sort of but not like an art director can for a copywriter because I'm focused on what said The art director is focused on the what's what's presented the visual part of And that takes a load off of the copyright. So there's some I think bernbach was brilliant in teaming up Copywriters and art directors and he may not get the full credit for it. But yeah, I think So you got curious and listening and then collaborate when when you are let's say you're In the middle of a big thing for a client a big creative thing Where do you go for inspiration? Okay, you've spoken. Yeah, you have to know the product You have to know the people you have to know the customers But on top of that or the side of that for inspiration Do you do you walk the city? Do you take photographs of copy that you see around or images? Where's your inspiration coming from? Sometimes we really need to get to the I like to see how the clients product lives in the world I like people watching So if you can Why wouldn't I go to A client store or a restaurant or company or factory or whatever Um Britain has I don't know if Europe has a version of undercover boss Yeah, you see we know it. You see me. You see the american version, right? Yeah. Yeah There's a lesson in marketing there That the individual running this company Has to go undercover To learn about his company or her company And when they get out there they find out how little they know So why wouldn't As a as a lonely copywriter Part of my inspiration is to actually sit and watch and listen You know I'm not a park kind of person So I'm not out in nature and Walking in Columbia, South Carolina is is not an option because Oh, it's hot here extremely hot. Um But I get out my people watch um I think We have to copywriters have to learn to be distracted Yeah You know you give me an assignment you give a copywriter an assignment you give a creative assignment and Sitting there and trying to go I'm gonna write this perfect line right now No Creative is like, uh, I I'm not you know, it creates like I'm not coming out Now if you put that person You can't make me do anything and creative is I think creative is alive I think of it as a creature So, you know, it's like, okay. I'm gonna go open the open the door and let creative out and creative like Did you ask me? You know, you sort of have to coax it out and I think That's why we ended up with ping pong tables pool tables all the distractions that people lament about now Is because you're sitting there and you're doing something else And your brain Works a different kind of way That part of your brain that's Working on the problem is still working, but it's working without you in the way So you're playing you're doing whatever you're sitting and you're sitting there That's why we have to be distracted. So you're sitting there. You're just doing whatever listening the music You can even be watching a movie And you ever you know, it's people go I was in the shower and it hit me Well, you're in the shower you weren't thinking I gotta write this line about me. I was you know, you're taking a shower you're driving And it hits you Because you're concentrated on driving. So the brain that part of your brain is actually working and we have unfortunately We have individuals that run agencies and creative departments who are not creative And don't understand how that process works So we are forcing people to sit at a desk for six or seven hours a day And you're by god, you're going to push out that creative line and you're going to push it out on time And creative is going that little creative being you just got this article that going no Not today So you get the work that's Not horrible, but it's not the right work It's acceptable and it's the bare minimum or it's a little above the bare minimum But that brilliant idea was like i'm not coming out. You can't make me These conditions are not what I you know So to your point, I'll throw on some gospel. I'll throw on some gospel music Because in my house my mom when she was cleaning the house Or when she was working on something she'd put on gospel music And she just would sing the song she knew And do a task So i'm sitting there and i'm on i'm i'm put on some music or r&b and i'm gone i'm singing the song and then i'll send it go Oh That's the line Yeah, I wish I wish we could say okay write 50 lines and you get it right I think that is the worst copywriting advice on the planet For me, it's I have two dogs. So when i'm walking it's been all the ideas come But I have to I have to write them in my phone immediately because I lose them I'm like, oh my god. What was that thing? Anyway, so to your point just then Derek, uh, what do you think is one of the some of the big Mistakes that copywriters can make or fall into the trap of First of all, it's um ego I give I give no no cares. I'm trying not to curse. I give no cares for your ego I don't need to know how smart you are how vast your vocabulary is How intelligent you are We know you're not writing to show me that You're writing to communicate So if the target audience isn't talking like that, why are you putting 15 set words? Where a five or a six set word could work and would be more real and you know That's the big one. I got to show you. I'm a great American. I'm a great writer. No If you can communicate what's the Einstein quote about genius is being able to explain the complicated simple Well, think about it most the too many copywriters that have reversed that Genius is taking in the simple and making it complicated. I would be says doesn't either it's I don't I'm not interested if it's clever I'm only interested in cells Yeah And what cells is what cells is the human? I mean think about I don't know if you were in the states, but where's the beef It's such a simple line that doesn't say Our hamburgers are more beef than your than everybody else's hamburger. That's where's the beef It's not even a complete sentence It's the language of the street Yeah, um And I like like what you just said I'm going to show you two brands that figured that out three federal express international house of pancake and kentucky fried chicken The street always called federal express fedex international house of pancakes i-hop and kentucky fried chicken kfc It took all three of those brands Nearly a decade a minimum of a decade to figure out to go with the name that street had for and You're sitting there going Really, how much money did you pay to have that designed? You know You know, there are people on the street that you owe money to You pay some ad agency to do this But that's where a copywriter um That's where I think copywriters get it wrong. I I borrow from whatever you say as a client. I'm listening to the client um I don't need to reinvent it. I need to find out what you know And sometimes the client doesn't know what they know because they're so close to the product or the service and um The other I guess ego and arrogance go hand in hand. Yeah Um The arrogance is I have learned everything I need to learn. I don't need to learn anything else Oh, well, you know, um No other copywriter or writer is as good as I am so I don't need to study anybody else's writing Um, I think you know, I think it's it's not the technical part of it. It's not time management. It's not um organizational skills because You can't organize copyright And you can't manage the time and I know that's going to drive some people who run agencies crazy but Here's what we do not admit to How long does it take for you to come up with an idea? How much time do you spend on it? If we were making widgets The only time I'm working on the widget is when I'm sitting at my desk working on the widget Because we bill by the hour we're saying Bill every hour or every increment of an hour Where you're working on the idea But to your point when you're walking your dog, how much time did you Did you spend thinking about that idea that comes to you? You don't know because you weren't running a clock on and you didn't know that part of your brain was working Oh, how do you organize that? How do you measure that you can't? What we also can't do is though we can't tell anybody that that part is unmeasurable. So what happens is We've created copywriters who are stressing and going crazy because they know they've worked more hours more time But they don't know how much time because that portion of your brain that's working Is working without your knowledge So so how do you square that circle with with your agency brown and browner? How do you How do you build a client? Is it I'm going by the job? Uh-huh I don't build them by the hour And I don't make people keep up. I don't I don't track hours You know It's like, how do you know you're getting the most of them? if you think if you know the the scope of the work then first of all I think Telling creatives the budget and the time and I'm when I said budget. I'm talking about the time Because time is a budget when you tell them the budget They're keeping that clock in their head We only have 140 hours to work on You know that that ticker started You know I'm working so I don't believe you tell them that You tell them look How long do you think you need to to complete this task? You know, um We we bring in everybody that's going to work on the job And we Ask them. What's this going to take? And then we we come up with a figure. We're moving more towards um On its pay So there's a flat fee But then there's a percentage tied to any increase and it's an agreed upon increase between the client and the agency And it's historically it's based on historical sales or performances so If your growth from last For this quarter of last year and the year before was eight percent it averaged eight percent then Historically you can project that this growth is going to be eight percent Now if we run a camp we do the work in this quarter for this quarter and the growth is above eight percent Then we get a percentage of that that growth I love this way clients want us to have skin in the game It's you know, we got skin in the game. But what it does is it frees up my people not to have to worry about time Some people work better in the morning That's me Some folks work better in the afternoon But our business day is what time to what time? So I'm saying Here's the deadline The deadline is two weeks out I don't care how you get it get to the deadline You know, what's what's what's amazing to me is we set that deadline and then we want to tell people how to get there What if you let the creative just get there? And if the creative comes back to you later and goes I work the copyright it comes back to you and says I worked too hard on this. Okay, then then what we would now we've learned something See you're still getting your check as a copywriter. Yeah, I'm not docking your pay You know I'm not building the client anymore. What I'm saying is now we know the next time around that flat fee needs to be a Little higher Do you think there's something in it when people talk about, you know creatives need deadlines because as that deadline looms it it all start that that It all starts firing It is knee constraints period I'm not going to pretend that a copywriter doesn't need. Oh, no that brief is You know what I curse about briefs But you need all those constraints in the brief No, you cannot curse in the ad No, you can show no nudity violence and sex and none of that I need you to have it done by now I win My problem is out of respect for the creatives I don't think anyone should be setting that deadline without the creators input No, it creates though. Okay. I'm right in the radio spot. I need three months And I'm looking at no You mean more realistic goal You know And I use radio because radio is a strictly copyrighted thing So, okay, I can do that in two two and a half weeks Okay Because And it's incumbent on me as the agency only to go back to the client say the client goes Well, why is it gonna take them two and a half weeks? How long did they take you to develop your product? Oh, it took us two years Three years five years, you know, no no client has ever developed a product in 48 hours Nobody But you want us to develop a message to sell that product and explain it in a way that they'll encourage people to buy it Change behaviors and everything and you want us to develop that message in 48 hours? No You know, but but part of that is on me as a leader to explain this Now I bring my creators along so that they can learn this because when they leave me They need to be able to defend Why it takes as long But do you do you get clients? I mean, uh, no, this is every copyrighted listening to this will understand that what you've just been explaining But would you get clients that will go? Okay, if you don't do it in 48 hours, I'm going elsewhere fine. Yeah Bye Yeah, okay um If you walked into a of any five star restaurants that Set down and say they make a souffle Souffle's take time You haven't ordered a head jet and called and made a you made a reservation, but you didn't tell them You wanted the souffle souffle takes an hour and a half two hours I don't know. I'm just doing that number out that work that number out So you sit down you go. I want a souffle, but I need to be out of here in 30 minutes What does the restaurant tell you? No There is power in us saying no and it's hard I'm not saying it's easy but there's power in saying no because We get ourselves in trouble When we say yes the things we know See if you say the client says I need that in 48 hours Then nothing can ever take longer than 48 hours with them. Now you're stuck So it's stuff that really and truly needs more than 48 hours You are now going to run yourself and rag it over Sure, you need the money, but all money ain't good money You're you're miserable Your your people are miserable. They're overworked and they're stressed For for what? You know As a copywriter, you know your manager or the CEO of the agency or whatever They're not thinking like this They're thinking we need we need to take this business win this business while they're small or win this first win the low hanging fruit Then we get the big stuff later Then later never comes Let's be totally honest How you how you allow people to treat you at the beginning of a relationship Is how you are going to be treated forever So Let's not even pretend they it ain't low hanging and easy you can My dad's drill instructor was a drill instructor in the army And he used to say it's always easier to go from hard to eat to soft But it's never easy to go from soft to hard So if I start off hard and I explain this to clients, I'm not for you if you think we're mcdonalds If you think you walk in here and get this in two and three minutes, no And clients try and I say well, why do you need this in 48 hours because we're blah blah blah blah blah right really Think about this now You know, and I'm not being funny or aggressive with I'm just saying I understand what you're trying to do, but really so And you have to there's some questions to be asked So if we give you a subpar work And it really is just to fill a void And you get it out there and you piss people off. What have you accomplished? It's better not to say anything than to say the wrong thing As copywriters and art directors and creatives we've lost that part of our business You know people want to be healed of cancer instantly, but what does the doctor tell you? You know, you there's no instant cure Yeah, so Yeah, I get that and and I think It's that compromising that has gotten us into trouble where deadlines are so tight And some agencies only have one copywriter for five art directors That poor copyright is overworked Um, or if they even have a copywriter on staff So We have got to learn to have some standards And to hold our standards It's not easy. You're gonna lose money. You know what I have repeatedly Gone to the wall about certain things with clients. I've won some I've lost them But we have never starved and I've never laid anyone off and we hadn't gone broke If you part of that part of that fear that these leaders have is an imaginary fear see I'm testing the water the clients are testing the water to see how far they can push us Our excuse my language, but our dumbasses don't realize we're being tested We think we're being mandated too. So we all we must do this to get the business As a client and just I'm gonna ask you this one as a client if you knew you could walk in and bully somebody And get what you wanted at a cheaper rate faster How much respect do you have for that person? That's a rest of the bottom, isn't it? Yeah How much so how why are they ever going to pay you your your rate? If they know they they can bully you around If they can beat you down, then I can beat you down on your rate I want copywriters to get paid what they are worth But I want them to work under the best conditions so that they can they can grow their careers And part of that is having a standard that goes, you know what? You're not slapping me around I've had one client. I've had one client actually where that's been a problem I had to stop the meeting and tell him you'll not talk to my people like that And he was worth a lot more money to us than I would care to admit That I would care to admit But I'm like look you can't do this And I have to say it in front of my people They need to understand I got their back And they also need to know there's a standard never in your life. Do you take this abuse from any human being? and in the exchange I could see that the client was testing us And he was a bully But he came to understand I'm not the one you don't bully And he stayed with us for another year or so and bless your heart if you leave after a year. I got my money My people did the work they needed to do but you didn't come in here and talk to them any time the way Copywriters have got to defend the craft as much as their bosses If you know that it's going to take you a little bit of time to do this Don't let somebody else set that deadline and come back and tell you Well, it shouldn't take that long You know, how how long does it take you to to make a cake? You know, yeah, you can make a cake in a microwave But really does anybody want to eat a cake that comes out of a microwave? Are the microwave people going to come after me on that one? You know, um It's so funny that we don't rush things I live in this I live in living in the us We're we're a car country I take my car and to get an oil change. It doesn't come out in 15 minutes It's two or three hours to get an oil change If I do the oil change myself is 20 minutes There's 102 degrees outside And there's no shade And my car is hot. I don't want to crawl up under the car to do this So I take that inconvenience for those of those two or three hours Do I go into that car place and yell and scream that it's taking two or three hours when I know it can be 20 minutes? No But the only people that are supposed to take that abuse on time are copywriters and art directors ad folk It's unrealistic. It's it's to your point. It's a race to the bottom. You know, I practice this as a copywriter Honestly, god, I today agencies and get the job and go. What's this? We need three radio spots and you want them in a week Lightly go and sit down next across my creative director and go. Have you looked at the deadline? It's like what did you know, you know, because think about it creative directors don't always Are so busy at some of these agencies. They're seeing so many briefs coming by. They're just signing the briefs and I'm like But we as copywriters don't understand that they may not have gone over all the details and realized that So I'm going there and I say no They're giving me a week To write 360 second spots and 330 second spots and 310 second spots Did you approve this? Because you do know I'm going to be working. You know, I don't know if I can do this To the look on your creative directors faces. It generally tells you that they didn't realize the scope of what they had signed Yeah And then, you know, then that's incumbent on the creative director to call up the people who submitted the brief and go That that deadline will not be met That's unreasonable If the brief doesn't have the right information and you realize that because you've read the brief and you're trying to make this work And you're you're realizing something's missing Coming on you to contact the person that wrote the brief as a copywriter It's incumbent on you to go to your supervisor as a copywriter and go This is missing something Just like if you are doing this and you discover something totally new and cool that isn't in the brief That the client didn't say but as you were doing the research into the brand you go, oh This is a cool idea And it may make the more money Do you sit on that as a copywriter or do you go to everybody else on the team and go I think we might have we might be going down the wrong path. Here's why Now if the team vetoes you cool go back and do what you you're assigned to do But but also hold on to the idea that whatever you discovered you may actually need to be out there I think We think copywriting is just writing And it isn't it's thinking And it's got to be thinking first on all aspects But but Derek you you're you're you're of a certain age You're a confident guy. You had a confidence building childhood that we spoke about before before we started and You know, what would you say to young copywriters or just getting into it? And then they've got these crazy pressured deadlines on them. Can they really stand up to their creative director and say no, this is I can't do it in this time They they have to say they have to start questioning the deadline Or they'll be slaving away forever You know If if you don't come to me and tell me it's a problem. How do I know as a boss there's a problem? Oh, yeah, I might get you may make me do it But once you tell your boss that this deadline is kind of is too short Now When the boss sees you are frazzled and hopefully and this is a question of whether or not you want to stay at that agency If that if that doing that job takes a toll on you physically and mentally And your boss doesn't give it down It's time to go They will work you to death And we have to come to that conclusion all bosses aren't great bosses But the really good ones and i'm just saying good i'm not even talking about great the good ones go Let me look at that damn deadline again Can I get them more days You know maybe three or four, but it's more days But do they know to get you more days if you've never said anything part of this is Yes, you're young and you want to make a lot of money and you want to do this But guess what to make a lot of money you've got to be You can't be a sheep The sheep don't get paid well So so what what would be your if you had a billboard in every town for like copywriters Young copywriters out there. What would be your message on there? I know i'm putting an instant deadline on you No respect the craft respect the craft nice And in in respecting the craft you learn about the craft you understand what was done in the past You see the future you study about what the future of the craft is copywriting is changing We don't do as much print as we used to do But I think that's a lie I think social media is printed Unless you're on clubhouse Um, or or any of the voiceovers, but a voice voice on platforms, but think about it I cheat on twitter and and anybody that is hearing this follow me on twitter and notice I write headlines on twitter I open I I Consciously think about the opening line of a tweet Because I needed to stop you grab you and pull you in That's a damn hit Yeah, so you got to study the craft See what what works in print? Works in social media What works in radio and tv and let me tell you I I fear the day that good radio copywriters Discover social media They have been working for years in the radio medium really good radio writers With no visual and just sound effects of a voice Yeah Imagine what they can do with some of our social media platforms With long copywriters, and I'm talking about really good long copywriters discover blogging You know, so that's why you have to respect the craft you have to learn, you know It's not New versus old it's taking what's old and making it new again And using it to win So they respect the craft they study it They but they also understand their responsibility As a writer ask questions Be present in the meeting If somebody says do you want to attend the meeting and you really don't want to go? Guess what you've already lost the battle on when that deadline is set Yeah You know be in the meetings. Yeah, it's hard to work Learn the inside workings of team so I'm not going to my account service people Just to complain I go to the account service people go guess what I discovered You know and the account service what what account service person is unhappy that Someone comes to them with something cool about the client You know So we're talking about building relationships But what what we've done is we've put everybody in a silo So the copywriter is over there writing words They should be questioning and listening and and and and talking I sit my account. So I let my account service people sit in on on radio sessions When they don't need to be there I'll let the strategist sit in on radio sessions and tv production And all of that because you got to understand what a copywriter and an art director really do You know, they're sitting on set on tv or radio and they're actually Participating in the creation of the work. They're just not writing it or they should be all of that Even as a junior if you're not Turned into to starting those practices It's hard to do that when you're 20 10 5 10 15 years down the road. Yeah, you are she you know If you never say no You'll always be saying yes Hey, that's biblical I'm sorry, but it's it's it's the I disagree a friend of mine put out a blog the most powerful word in In businesses. Yes, and I I sent him an email going No, the most powerful word in in businesses. No Yeah You know, and I don't explain my nose And if you can learn that that's important if you say no to something don't attach a reason No, but no, but is a negotiation If you don't intend to negotiate on your note, just no Yeah Okay Derek I could talk to you for the whole weekend, but and I just ask you two quick fire questions to wrap it up because I'm taking up so much of your time If advertising left field questions, okay quick fire if advertising we're a food What kind of food is advertising? I am Okay I mean think about it's a whole mixture Different things that shouldn't work together You know with enough heat Yeah, it comes out and it's like oh so you're gonna throw chicken in there with shrimp and Mussels and this is gonna be good Oh, so you're gonna put peas in there rice This is a nightmare and you're gonna cook cook it out. Wait a minute. You're not gonna cook you're gonna cook the rice With all this and make it crunchy Yeah, so it's pie. Okay. Nice one big mess And final question. I asked everybody this but I have never been so excited to ask somebody And it's you so There's two options for you. You have to choose to fight between A horse sized duck or a duck sized or 100 duck sized horses Which do you choose to fight and why? Ducks are vicious animals I go with the horses that are duck sized Because I figure after the first 20 or 30 the rest of get the message But if you've ever faced a duck A regular duck side. No, those are mean animals horses. I mean come on a little duck sized horses You you by the time you weigh through all of them are gonna want to fight. I'm gonna take the horse sized ducks Very good. Duck sized horses Yeah Derek it's been such a joy to speak to you. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. A real gent Oh, yes, go ahead and enjoy Berlin, sir A real rallying cry to all copywriters from Derek Walker there Just to let you know that Derek is one of the many thought leaders along with some legends of advertising in our new course on Copywriting go to 42 courses calm and take a look inside the copywriting course to learn how to write words that sell Thank you so much for listening Until next time