 Good afternoon, good evening, and welcome to another episode of Working on Open Shift. And sometime... This is so awesome. We are an open culture that... It's actually a pretty decent company. Everybody has something to think about. On top of the Red Hat portfolio. Welcome to In the Cloud, the final episode for 2021. Hard to believe. I am your host, Stu Miniman. And I want to thank everybody for joining what a year 2020 and 2021 have been. A lot of things we're looking out to for 2022. For those that have watched me on video. I've gotten so many comments over the years of how natural I am behind the camera. And I want to bring you back to, you know, 11 years ago when I first joined the Cube. One of the things I really looked for was people that I knew, people that I respected. Those hallway conversations or just those industry conversations that we would have. How do we bring those out to the world in public? So, you know, not just private, but you know, hey, open up the world. That's part of what open source is. You develop in public. We have these conversations in public. And that's some of the things that we do in live streaming. And one of the first interviews that I ever did with the Cube is my guest today. So I'm happy to welcome to In the Clouds, Brian Graceley. Brian is a peer of mine at Red Hat. He does strategy for the OpenShift team. He is also the co-host of the Cloudcast. If you're in the Clouds and you don't listen to the Cloudcast podcast, you are missing out. I have learned so much over the years. People I've met, people I've reached out to in interviews, technologies I've learned to understand. It was the domino that clicked towards me getting my, you know, AWS CCP certification because I'd listened to A Cloud Guru first on Brian's program. So, Brian, thank you for joining me here for the final session of 2021. Yeah, Stu, it's great to be with you. It's, you know, kind of coming full circle here. Like you said, we started doing this. I was lucky enough to be a guest on your show 10, 11 years ago. It's great to be doing this again. Yeah, we've definitely, it's been awesome working with you again at Red Hat. As we said, we've intersected. I've been on your podcast. You've been on the videos with me. You co-hosted with me on theCUBE for a while. And now at Red Hat, you know, we've been trying to figure out ways that we can do more things together. So, hey, Brian, we got it done before the end of the year. Finally there. So in this episode, you know, typical end of year. First, we'll take a look back at 2021, some of the learnings we have, but we're going to spend a little bit more time looking forward. You and I both talked to a lot of customers. We've worked with, you know, a lot of people in the ecosystem. So what are the strategic things that we're looking out? What advice do we have for the practitioners out there? So let's first, Brian, look back. I guess let's only look back a couple of weeks first. You know, Amazon re-invent is really one of those, you know, items on the calendar that we usually circle and really helps be a rallying point to understand where we are in this whole journey with clouds. So I was there in person. You watched a lot of it online. I listened to your Sunday session where you did an analysis of it. But give us the thumbnail. What did you take away from re-invent this year? Yeah, it was obviously a very different show because AWS now has new leadership. So anytime you have a company who or really any organization who's had just a dominant, you know, trendsetter sort of leader, you know, to see a transition happen, you know, the first couple of things you're trying to figure out is, you know, what's going to be different? What's going to be new? And I think you had this sort of confluence of two things coming together. One was new leadership, but then I think the other thing is, you know, it's been 10 years since re-invent's been going on. And I think in terms of our technology kind of history, you know, if you think of the kind of classic crossing the chasm diagram that we show a lot of times, you know, we're sort of at that point of crossing the chasm. So, you know, not only is AWS going through leadership changes, but the community and companies and people that are using the public cloud have really shifted from, you know, maybe startups and purely web-centric companies, you know, cloud-only companies to, you know, a much broader set of enterprises and governments and, you know, use cases from around the world. So, you know, the shift not only was, you know, a different tone from a leadership perspective, but also a different tone from, you know, purely builders to much more of, you know, what's it going to take for enterprises to use the cloud more? Or what are, you know, what are the things that are changing, you know, what the edge looks like? What, you know, how AI and ML are going to become sort of hidden in the background of what's going on. So, it was a really interesting show, you know, partially because we're still, you know, not fully back to lots of people at events, but also, you know, just the amount of change and the timing of where we are as a complete, you know, industry versus, you know, one individual company from a cloud perspective. Yeah, Brian, you and I could spend hours talking about this show. Right. You know, starting 10 years ago when the event started, small event, a lot of the public cloud back then was heavily weighted towards North America. So much has changed, of course, the global outlook. It's great to see some of the chat. We've got some people from across the globe. I saw somebody dialing in from Vietnam, saw, you know, a friend of ours, Michael Keen, who, you know, used to seeing, you know, in person at events many time. My quick takeaways on that is, number one, Amazon had a real focus on ecosystem and community. And it's one of those things that I think took a few years to gel. Back in the virtualization days, there was a certain core group of people that led a lot of the community efforts. There are lots of smaller communities, even though when I say smaller, it's that they're all huge communities, but it depends whether you're, you know, rallied around your language, rallied around, you know, use cases like you mentioned, AI. So there's such a broad spectrum of people at that show. Whereas I remember the second year of the show when I first went, it was, you know, gaming companies and web companies, you know, it was Amazon web services. It was to help you with your websites. Today it's every nook and corner of the world. And one of the things we're all looking at is, what will that next million cloud customers look like? And, you know, my pithy line is it is, hey, have we finally reached day two for AWS? It was a little bit more enterprising. There wasn't anything that made me go, oh my gosh, I just saw Lambda, you know, get launched. I just saw some amazing feature that's going to be, you know, transformative to thousands of companies, lots going on with, you know, the Graviton architecture and many things. But again, Amazon really sets the bar for the industry. And, you know, good way to, you know, really end up the year. Amazon's growth, the cloud growth in general is huge. We're at what, Brian? $120 billion annually between all of them. And Amazon's still sitting in the cat bird number one seat there. I mean, the other thing I think that was really interesting and you know this from, you know, having sat through a lot of the keynotes and obviously talking to a lot of the community and you mentioned ecosystem. I thought the other thing that was really interesting is a lot of times we sit through the keynote and you sort of wonder, okay, a new service is going to get announced. Does that basically mean the demise of some, you know, kind of beloved startup company because now they've become a native part of, you know, the Amazon cloud or some other cloud. And I think this was another sort of shifting thing that we saw was, you know, we're seeing, you know, number one, we didn't necessarily see that, which I think as you mentioned, signals something different about how they view the importance of their ecosystem, right? Supporting their ecosystem as opposed to maybe kind of more directly competing with them. But I think we've also seen, you know, a lot of these companies, a lot of times open source centric companies are becoming really, really successful on top of these clouds, right? So obviously, you know, we've seen a lot of success with the work that we do with OpenShift, which, you know, kind of our way of bringing Kubernetes to the marketplace on top of AWS, but also Azure and others. But we've seen, you know, MongoDB and Confluent and CockroachDB and a lot of these things that are open source, they came, they became services in the cloud and they're not only just coexisting with some other service that's native on the cloud but really thriving. And so I think, you know, we're starting to see a point of, you know, you can really differentiate with open source, not only in capabilities but also in... Well, Brian, my comment about the cloud moving to day two must have disrupted things because we had a little blip in the live streaming. So we're back. One more question for you to talk about 2021. Of course, the pandemic has had a real impact on everybody and what they're doing, both personally and professionally. We had an audience question, Sysadmin, Linux skills, what do I do to move forward? So maybe we can kind of mash those two together. One of those big questions we've been looking at, you know, the last five or 10 years. So what's your take on that? Yeah, I think it's sort of twofold. I think if you look at it from a personal perspective, so take, you know, the question of, you know, the person in the chat, you know, there's, you know, we've not only seen a lot of people who are changing jobs because they're looking for an opportunity that either fits them, you know, fits the way they're working now, whether it's working from home or just, you know, a new cloud skill, whatever that would be. And the great thing is like, there are so many really good online services, you know, that are helping with that. And like in the case of the Linux admin, you know, we've been running this program called Level Up for a little while now. We can maybe probably put a link to it, you know, in the chat somewhere. That's basically saying, hey, look, if you've got Linux skills, Linux skills are really adaptable to containers, to Kubernetes, to a lot of this cloud native type of stuff, especially from an infrastructure perspective. So we've been really trying to sort of help, you know, lead those folks with RHEL skills, Linux skills and so forth into things that maybe are a little more aligned to not just infrastructure and security, but also, you know, building out of some of these new applications that companies are dealing with. So I think on the kind of personal individual side, you know, we are seeing a lot of people who take in the last year, year and a half, two years and have kind of reassessed. I think on the company side, you know, last year obviously was, everybody was kind of just in survival mode. You know, lots of things were changing for companies. Some things completely shutting down. Others growing like crazy. I think what we've seen since then, and especially this year was, you know, companies kind of had assessed what, you know, this sort of potentially new normal meant for what was going on in the business. And we, you know, and you talked about it, I think on a different webinar, like we sort of saw this trifurcation, right? We saw the companies who were really just trying to survive. So, you know, whether you were, you know, kind of, let's say, the hotel industry or airlines or something that were impacted because people weren't traveling. But then you had companies who looked at this and they said, I'm going to refocus what we do, try and go faster. You know, we're going to build some new applications because people are getting their food differently or they're interacting with us differently. And then you had this sort of third group which was just like massively explosive growth because their business was entirely online. And that was, you know, where people were, right? That's where the marketplace was. That's where data was being interacted. So, you know, this last year was really sort of, you were going to fit into one of those three categories and the behaviors between those were really different, depending on if you were going sort of like slow and recovery, medium fast and trying to adapt to things. Or, you know, this is our sweet spot. We're going to go into supersonic mode. Yeah, Brian, I love the framework that you laid out there as to the impact of it. You know, everybody had to make changes. I mean, if you were in the hotel or, you know, hospitality restaurant industries, you obviously needed to, you know, change things a little bit. You know, boy, the workforce challenges are something that, you know, is likely to, you know, drag into the next year. But you said some companies really accelerating what they're doing. We've seen lots of companies, you know, work with us as they're doing their cloud adoption. Some, you know, might have had some changes and some were slowed down. So, as we turn the page to 2022, what advice do you give to those three categories if we say, you know, hopefully we're going to the next stage of that new normal, as you said? Right. What advice do you give them looking forward to what they should focus on and what some of their opportunities are? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, in the simplest, if we use those sort of three buckets, if you will, you know, if you were in the, you know, heavily impacted, kind of trying to survive mode, you know, I think you're a lot of the, a lot of the guidance that I think people are really looking at is, you know, now that things are changed, whether they were changed, you wanted to drive or not, this has really given you a chance to reset some things that you've done. So, we've really seen kind of a doubling down of people looking at, how do I maybe automate things that we never automated before? Because either you're short-handed on people or maybe you're short-handed on budget that was there before. So, a lot looking at automation, simplification of things, maybe saying, hey, look, we don't have to do certain things anymore. So, you know, a lot of automation in that space. I think in the sort of middle category are the ones that, you know, are trying to figure out how do we start to adopt these new technologies? And these are ones where, you know, we've seen them say, hey, look, we have to build three or four new applications to do whatever that might be, right? It could be, you know, food delivery if you're in the grocery, you know, business or, you know, might be scale of certain things. And those are the ones that a lot of times have, for example, come to us and said, hey, we've heard that things like containers or Kubernetes or some of these new cloud native things could really help us. But, you know, maybe we hadn't invested in those over the last three or four years maybe as much as we could have or we wanted to. So, can you help us accelerate that? And then that's where, you know, platforms like, you know, what we deliver on top of AWS on top of Azure. So, you've heard of maybe something called ROSA, you know, Red Hat OpenShift on AWS or Azure Red Hat OpenShift where it's basically like, here's the technology, the technology you're trying to benefit of, but we'll manage it for you. We'll sort of, you know, be your learning curve, if you will, to get up to speed on it really quickly. We've got, you know, SRE teams built into the service that are going to help sort of accelerate your teams onboarding and so forth. And in those cases, it's, you know, those things make a lot of sense because it's, we know what we need to do. We're not necessarily prepared for it, but we don't get a choice anymore. We get a chance to leapfrog some stuff. And then I think for the ones that are crazy, you know, they're dealing with some stuff that maybe they understand the scale piece of it, but, you know, security at scale is challenging. Management at scale is challenging. You know, that's where some of the technologies that we have around, you know, advanced cluster security, advanced cluster management that are designed to deal with scale, to deal with software supply chain security, things that are, you know, making headlines are things that people are really looking into is, you know, how growth isn't stifled by, you know, one, you know, one bad day with a hacker and we're in the newspaper and, you know, the community loses trust with us or the public loses trust with us because they heard that, you know, data was breached or something like that. So lots of different options at the stages. I think it's A, it's realizing which of those buckets are we realistically in. And then the great news is there's, you know, there's a bunch of different options depending on, you know, what we're trying just to emphasize one of the things that you mentioned from a security standpoint, of course, we have certain things that we do at the platform level with Linux and with OpenShift, the Kubernetes native security, the acquisition Red Hat made earlier this year of Stack Rocks. But boy, you know, all year I've been talking about how important security is and, you know, we couldn't get through the year without another massive exploit. You know, the last week everyone's thinking about the log forge or sometimes it's pronounced log for J exploit there. Anybody using Java, which the cloud runs a lot of Java our customers run a lot of Java. Good news I've seen from a Red Hat standpoint, it looks like there's been minimal impact for the products that we have and our product set, but we're working closely with customers to help work through there and our broad ecosystem for that. So security always is one of those top items. Brian, what else? What are some of the big challenge that you see when you're talking to customers? What are the things that are stopping them from taking advantage of some of those opportunities that they might see out there in the future? Yeah, I think it's a couple things. It's always people in process is always typically a slower barrier than hey, is there technology to help me? So, you know, I think what we're probably going to start seeing is, you know, because we are going through a lot of people churning through jobs is companies I think may end up coming back to saying, look, we're going to have to invest more in the people that have these skill sets that we have. And again, this is why we've we see things in phases. We saw we've seen a lot of things in terms of simpler to consume technology training, right? Kubernetes by example, things that we've done, learn.openshift.com, you know, trying to make it really simple, really free, very easy. But, you know, this last year has really put a lot of pressure on, right? It's made a lot of things more digital than maybe they had been in the past. So that's always a challenge. And I think, like I said, this thing, you know, the joke has always been that the greatest sort of digital transformation wasn't, you know, by the CIO's office, it was because of COVID. But I think, you know, a lot of companies that we talked to are saying, look, I'm going to use this as an opportunity to be that change agent, to drive some of these changes that have been lingering or were hard to do because people said, well, you know, maybe it will, maybe it won't. So that's there. And then I think the other thing is, you know, we've talked about hybrid cloud and multi-cloud for a long time. Red Hat is a company and sometimes it was easy to say, well, you know, our take on the cloud is going to be this and the clouds are all the same. And so we'll just pick one that we like. And I think the cloud providers have really developed their own personalities. You know, some are more kind of primitive oriented, if you will. Others are, you know, kind of a mix of enterprise and collaboration. Others are, you know, very data centric. So I think their personalities are kind of putting some optionality for companies to look at. And they're trying to figure out, okay, maybe I'm not going to be picking just one. We've already done that with sass. You know, but the second order effect of that is, how are we then going to manage it? How are we going to find some way to do things consistently? How do we make sure that, you know, this team over here doesn't create a bunch of technical debt that this team over here can't keep up with. So I think just the nature of the cloud providers' offerings and their personalities and their way of going to market, you know, has brought the hybrid cloud, multi-cloud discussion, maybe back to the sort of center that maybe had to drift a few, you know, drifted a little bit the last couple of years. Yeah, we all know it's, I've said it too many times, right? And the only constant in our industry is change. You've got on your bookshelf behind you one of my favorite books on change, Switch by the Heath Brothers. So, you know, really good understanding not from, you know, the technology change, but how do I look at change? What is me? What is the path I'm on? You know, what's the ecosystem as a whole? Just great book to read. We've got a question in from the audience actually talking about one of my favorite topics, which is our site reliability engineering team. They asked specifically about, you know, how much programming experiences needed. Just a quick anecdote of just in the conversations I had at ReInvent I spoke to a lot of companies and when they talked about what they're doing in the cloud it wasn't, hey, I've got a lot of infrastructure people that want to manage a platform. It's, I've got 10, 100, a thousand developers. How do I accelerate what they're doing? And of course having to learn docker compose and all the container and cluster in, oh my gosh, Kubernetes pieces isn't necessarily something that is differentiated lifting. You know, we want to get rid of that when we go to the cloud. So that's the SRE team you mentioned Arrow and Rosa and what we do with OpenShift Dedicated also on Google. That is a way for, as a company to say I'm going to shift that burden to my cloud provider and Red Hat and you can manage more of that. Brian, I don't know if you can answer the specific SRE question. I've loved talking to our SRE team. I've been on some calls with them. I definitely love highlighting that. Do you know a little bit about their background? What's the bar to get it to become something like that? Yeah, I mean, I think so, you know, to a certain extent because SRE is going to have a lot of similar skill sets to what you have with what we used to call DevOps sort of Linux sysadmin types of skill sets. So certain amount of scripting, certain amount of understanding how complex system works. I think the biggest thing is it's less about like are you a world-class sort of developer? I think there's a mindset sometimes that the SRE teams are offloading writing code from developers or off, you know, building applications. I think the reality is we tend to call it site reliability engineering, but I think the mindset that you really have to have is sort of success and reliability engineering, right? You're trying to make the onboarding of applications, the lifecycle of applications successful and so it's less about like do I know a specific skill set is, you know, can you really be thinking about I have a fairly frequently changing environment as opposed to maybe very static environments before and what's needed to make that successful, right? So it's more than anything probably less sort of depth of skill, you know, you are super deep in one thing. It's probably a little more of kind of, you know, jack of several trades, right? You're not afraid to interact with the CI and CD systems because, you know, that's where, you know, you're sort of inputs coming. You're not worried about interacting with certain amounts of security because as we've seen this last week and other things, right? You've got to make sure the systems are well patched and taken care of but, you know, just like we saw with containers and Kubernetes a lot of these things build on skill sets that are fundamental around Linux, Linux, Java, those things and so we often find, you know, a lot of the really good SREs come from those sort of sys admin types of backgrounds. You're just now putting them in a situation in which, you know, the change rate is maybe a little more frequent than it was in sort of traditional IT and you just sort of change your mindset from, you know, stability to success in a more, you know, change frequent environment if you will. Yeah, Brian, you talked about that mindset. You talked to a lot of customers if you bumped into a CEO of a big enterprise company and they're doing their strategic planning for 2022, what's the quick thing that you would want to talk to them about to maybe start moving them down and making the changes that they need to be successful in the new year? Yeah, you know, if you do get a chance in one of those scenarios, you better be sort of quick into the point. I think it's two things. One, on the business side of things, it's, you know, how well prepared are you for your business to be disrupted and disrupted through technology. So, you know, what that means is, you know, are you investing in the technologies that are going to help you reach your customers in new ways, right? They're going to be, you know, touchless ways, digitally, you know, fully digital ways, those types of things. So, are you investing or are you prepared for that? Because whether you are or not, that's coming. We're seeing money invested it, you know, by VCs, they're investing more than really ever before. And then the flip side of that is, you know, are you prepared to lose 25% of your best technology talent this year, right? And, you know, that's sort of the other reality of this great what are we calling it? The great sort of, you know, job changing of 2021 and 2022 and 2020. The big quit it sometimes called the big innovation, you know, absolutely. And what that really means is not, you know, you're not a good shop, people don't like working for you, but the reality of that is, you know, do you have, A, are you taking care of your best engineering talent? Are you giving them opportunities to train as several people have asked on here to learn new skills? But more so, you know, are you looking for ways to bring in new talent? Do you have mentorship programs so senior engineers can teach junior engineers? Because again, you know, we probably won't last forever that 25% of the workforce is flipping over. But, you know, for the next maybe couple of years there's a distinct possibility that's a reality. So, you know, those two things in the technology category for me would be my elevator pitch is, how are you preparing for it? Are you aware that that's the severity of what's going on? And, you know, I think for CEOs, they get, you know, you connect those dots and they're going to understand how that's going to impact their top and bottom line. Yeah, absolutely, Brian. I think, you know, I doing Red Hat a little over a year ago and in the time that I've been here, we've added over 2,000 incremental headcount to the company. So that fight for talent is real. Something we see, you know, are the ecosystems that are in especially in the clouds, they're all hiring like mad and, yeah, what skills do I need? What things do I need to work on? And we always had to worry about what if somebody, you know, left or got hit by a bus. So we need to make sure, you know, that the business is scalable. If you go back to, you know, reading the Phoenix project, it was, you know, what if that key engineer that's the bottleneck, you know, how do we, you know, open things up to be able to make change fast and we need, therefore, to have a distributed organization just like our code is being more distributed. Yeah, awesome. Well, hey, Brian, we've covered so much here. I guess last thing, you know, on a personal note, you know, I've known you a long time, Brian. You're a barbecue pit master. You are a rampant podcaster. Any big things that, you know, you changed what you were doing this last year. You're not traveling all over the globe. I mean, I used to, you and I used to talk about some of the crazy places that you'd be going to meet with customers and now, you know, you and the family, you can either be there and you've got a nice place that you sometimes have a better view of activity. So give us a little bit of, you know, you personally and what you've been doing and maybe, you know, have things change for you as to how you think about travel in the future. Yeah, I, yeah, you're right. I mean, I used to travel probably 200, 250,000 miles a year. There was a part of me that loved seeing the world and then when that stops, you start to, you know, you start to make, you know, reconnecting with family. I've got some kids that are getting, you know, closer to college age than high school age. So that introduces a whole new dynamic of how you think about the next couple of years. I mean, I think I've tried to do a couple of things. I mean, you know me, I'm always sort of just habitually curious in the technology space. I've tried to do a couple of things. I've tried to, you know, learn a little bit, build a little bit of skill around my sort of coding and development skills. So I've been trying to do some work around Python and some things around data. That's kind of a continuing conversation that we have with customers. So, you know, wanting to better understand what they go through in that space, you know, and then I think the other thing is I, you know, we mentioned this at the beginning, like I'm always somebody who contextually likes to put things, you know, like historically in context, right? So we've been around this industry long enough that we've seen certain things repeat but then, you know, the things that repeat aren't always the same in the same way as they were before. And so I've really been trying to, you know, what I call, you know, Sunday perspectives. One of the things I do on the podcast is just, you know, how did we get to hear what lessons did we learn over the last five years, you know, three years, two years? Do we think those same sort of lessons will repeat themselves given, you know, the new context of the cloud or given the new context of, you know, how much people are defaulting to open source and, you know, so I've been trying to push myself to think a little more about not this week or this month or kind of what's right in front of me but, you know, put it in a little bigger context and figure out, you know, can we relearn some lessons, can we avoid some mistakes and you know, so doing those types of things beyond just, you know, trying to be a good family person and all those things. Yeah. Awesome. Brian, thank you. So we do have, I'll try to answer real quick, there's a question in the chat about OpenShift and CoreOS and I'll bring it back to Brian. Before we even did interviews together, you and I both worked on the architecture of what was Vblock, you know, the original, you know, converged infrastructure and one of those questions, discussions you get all the time is like, wait, can I change some of these pieces? The not competition had about the original Vblock was you can get it in any color you want as long as it's black, like saying it was a Ford Model T, but there's a reason that you build certain things, there's the reliability and all the testing. When OpenShift went from OpenShift 3 to OpenShift 4, Linux and Kubernetes are a single, you know, instance, you know, that's how it works and everything else is operators that goes on top of it. So, you know, the question, Brian, is everybody says, hey, I want to, I love OpenShift, I want to be able to do it without the Linux, you know, do you have a pithy response for us? Yeah, I mean, I think I'll give it this. The reason OpenShift is where it is today that the sort of tight integration between the underlying Linux and OpenShift really wasn't because we wanted to make them things those tightly tied together. It was really because when we did it as a more disaggregated type of thing, even though it was tied to RHEL previously, customers really kind of struggled with it and it was partially because the technologies were new but it was because organizations weren't, you know, the Linux team was separate from the Kubernetes team and we just found that, you know, kind of tying the two things together. Again, you're sort of hiding the Linux, if you will, when you're doing containers but from an operations perspective, we just saw a far, far higher success rate when we saw those two things kind of be in lockstep in terms of upgrades, in terms of security patching and so it really was driven by our desire to see more and more customers successful. You know, there's still an option. I mean, if you really, really, really love OpenShift and you really, really say, hey, look, I just, I don't necessarily want that Linux model under the covers. You know, there is some flexibility of, you know, bring your own Linux, if you will, on the host side and also the OKD project. You know, if you're purely looking for an open source thing that you have a little more tweakability with, the OKD, which is the upstream of OpenShift still gives you some flexibility there as well with things like CentOS and some other options. So ultimately the goal, make you more successful, make it less complicated but if you, you know, if you want all those bells and whistles and knobs, there are other options in there for you as well. Yeah, Brian, absolutely. The struggle that we've always had is, wait, do I want all those geek knobs? Do I want to be able to configure everything? You know, the original sin in the data center was I'm going to make a temple for every application and I'm going to spend all my time doing all those bells and whistles and adjusting. If I go to the cloud, they still have some things I can just, but hey, the SREs that we mentioned, they manage a bunch of them. So OpenShift can be manipulated, can be flexible. There's that balance that we need to strike. Awesome. Brian, so much more we can go into. I want to give a quick plug. We do have lots of other live streaming shows. We actually just launched a new landing page to hopefully make it easier for you to find all of them. So it's red.ht slash live streaming. It's usually Tuesday, Wednesdays and Thursdays. Some shows are weekly, some are bi-weekly, some are monthly. This one is bi-weekly. Lots of good guests coming in the new year. Please reach out, let me know if there's anybody more that you want to see on the program. I'm reaching out to a lot of our ecosystem. They are looking for practitioners that are willing to tell their stories as to what they've gone through in their transformation because learning from your peers, we know is one of the best ways for you to learn. One of the things I love at Red Hat is our customers. Using OpenSource, they're often open about what they do. And no longer keeping things private. Oh my gosh, my IT is my IP. But we're going to learn from our peers. We're going to all help lift everything up. IT in general, security especially. So lots of good stuff coming in 22. So Brian, always good to talk to you. Definitely looking forward to seeing you in person as we've got some meetings for some of the strategic planning and we'll definitely have to find more ways to create content next year. Yeah, absolutely. Happy holidays to everybody. Happy New Year and we'll see you in 2022. Alright and thank you everyone for joining. Please do tune back in 2022. You can mark it as I said, it's usually every other week on Thursdays. Usually 11 o'clock eastern. Sometimes we'll adjust the timing a little bit. But if you check out the YouTube or that link that we just shared for Red Hat live streaming, there's a calendar on there for everything. So I'm Stu Miniman. Feel free to reach out to me on Twitter or any other ways for your feedback is always welcome. Do appreciate. Hope we got to most of the questions that came in the chat and we will see you in 2022. Thank you and appreciate you joining us in your journey in the clouds.