 Hey everybody tonight. We are debating whether or not Muhammad is a true prophet and we are starting right now with Shuaib's opening statement from the yes side. Thanks for being with us Shuaib. The floor is all yours Yeah, thank you very much for this platform. Anyways, by the way, my name is Baba Shuaib I'm here representing the Muslim side where I have to present if Muhammad is a true prophet Yeah So first of all about I was beloved in a shaitan or jim. I seek refuge with Allah against the Akash devil I start by quoting from the Quran chapter 7 verse 156 and I'm reading up to 157 in context It starts from above but to get the gist of what we are talking about today and God says and decree for Moses said and decree for us what is good in this world and in the hereafter indeed We are guided to you. He God said my punishment will strike whomever I will thereby But my mercy encompasses all things so I will decree it for those who are pious and give the charity And they are those who believe in our verses 157 who followed a messenger the online prophet whom they found written With them in the Torah and the gospel He commands them to kindness and forbid them from abomination and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibit for them The bad things and takes off their burden from them as well as the shackles which were upon them Therefore those who believe in him honor him support him and follow the light which was revealed along with him They are those who will be the successful So 158 tells the messenger to say oh you mankind I am a messenger of God to you all The one to whom belongs the demeanor of the heavens and the earth there is no God except him He gives life and causes death so believe in God and his messenger the online prophet Who believes in God and his words and follow him perhaps you will be guided now We can see clearly from this verses I quoted from the Quran basing the fact that he is a messenger and a prophet at the same time that that is Muhammad As said in Quran chapter 33 verse 40 Muhammad is not the father of anyone among your men But a messenger of God and the seal of the prophet and God is aware of all things Now when you go to Quran chapter 47 verse 2 He says as for those who believe and do good this and believe in what was revealed to Muhammad Which is the truth because he came with the truth from their Lord He will atone their baddies for them and improve their situation now According to the Bible when we go to first John chapter first John For chapter 4 verse 1 to verse 6 it tells us the criteria on how to know who is a true prophet and a false prophet So he says beloved believe not every spirit But try the spirit whether they are of God because many false prophets are gone out into the world Hereby know ye the spirit of God every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is calm in the flesh is of God which Muhammad does as we see in Quran chapter 19 verse 32 verse 34 and Verse 3 he says and every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is calm in the flesh is not of God and This is that of auntie this spirit is of Antichrist then he says and Where of ye have heard that issue come and even now already it is in the world That's for ye are of God little children and have overcome them Because greater is he that is in you and he that is in the world That's five. They are of the world therefore speak of the world and the world here them Verses we have God he that know God here to us he that is not of God He is not us hereby we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error So according to this criteria we can clearly see the spirit of truth Represent a true prophet while the spirit of error represent false prophet So by this criteria, we can clearly testify that Muhammad alaihi salam brought a book whereby Testifies that Jesus came in flesh and the criteria given in this verse is clearly say that if this Spirit confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is of God So when we go to John chapter 16 verse 12 to verse 15 He Jesus is saying I Jesus have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now How be it when he the spirit of truth is come He will guide you into all truth for he shall not speak of himself But whatsoever he shall hear that he shall speak and he shall show you things to come He shall glorify me for he shall receive of mine and shall share with unto you now Underline the word glorify it doesn't mean he's worshipping him now again Here then he says all things that the father had a mind Therefore said I that he shall take of mine and shall show it unto you So whatever Jesus brought into the gospels was given to Muhammad as well confirmed by the Quran Which we can see now when you go to Isaiah chapter 42 you read from verse 1 to verse 23 It gives you the prophecy of which prophet is coming But I give you the summary of it for the sake of time Isaiah chapter 42 verse 1 says behold my servant whom I uphold Mine elect in whom my soul delight I have put my spirit upon him He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles and we know clearly Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles Matthew chapter 15 verse 24 He says I was not sent back to the lost ship of Israel. So not to the Gentiles then Isaiah chapter 42 verse 19 Clearly says tells you in between says who is blind but my servants or death as my messenger that I sent Who is blind as he that is perfect and blind as the Lord servants So in to contest if you read from Isaiah 42 verse 1 up to verse 23 It gives you the gist of the prophet which was mentioned in the Bible So verse 23 says who among you will give ear to this who will hiking and hear for the time to come This is a prophecy. So in summary, I give you Isaiah chapter 28 verse 9 to verse 10 He says whom shall he this prophet? We are talking about whom shall he teach knowledge and whom shall he make to understand doctrine them that are waned from milk From the milk and drawn from the breast verse 10 for precept must be upon precept preset upon preset line up online line up online here a little and there a little for with Stumbering lips and another tongue will he speak to these people so it's not part of the children of Israel Then he says to whom he said this is the rest where with ye may cause the weary to rest and this is the refreshing Yet they will not hear but the word of the Lord was unto them preset upon preset preset upon preset Line up online line up online here a little and there a little that they might go and fall Backward and be broken and snared and taken so into context chapter 28 verse 9 to verse 18 Clearly gives you the gist of this prophet being spoken about so I'll hand it over to Mohammed so that he can finish off the rest. Thank you Be some blessings on the messengers and hello everybody. So just to carry on from what my colleague here, Baba Shri Abbas said I want to start off by the history of the Children of Israel, which is a simple story. God tasked the seed of Jacob and his descendants to make the truth apparent Through the people and the rest of humanity or the Gentiles about who the God of Abraham is This is why they are the chosen people Moses was sent to bring them out of the darknesses that they were in and supported them with a book from God Which would we know as the Torah the number of people that chose to uphold the covenant and tell the truth about God Started to dwindle over time and the Children of Israel Shifted the focus from we are the chosen people to guide towards God or tell the truth about God and life is about God to We are the chosen people and it's about us So God sent Jesus the Messiah to the children of Israel as a messenger To bring the truth back to God and make sure his followers to testify that they are to give the victory back to God Now over time instead of giving the victory to God the children of Israel that followed Jesus Started to give the victory to Jesus and again, no one was left to show the truth to the Gentiles So God as promised in the Bible sent a Gentile prophet To the Gentiles with God's words flowing from his mouth And gave them a way to get guided to the Lord of Abraham without the need of the children of Israel When somebody has the words of God flowing directly from his from him That in essence is the definition of Nebi in Arabic or Nebi in Hebrew or a prophet in English Now Muhammad just like Jesus peace be upon both of them Both spoke on behalf of God in the first person. So in John 14 14 Jesus said if you shall ask anything in my name I will do it and in 14 18 I will not leave you comfortless I will come to you and in 14 21 He has he that has my commandments and keeps them He is that loves me and he that loves me shall be loved of my father And I will love him and we will man and I will manifest myself to him Now in Quran chapter 2 159 The prophet and you have to put your mentality in the arabians where a man stood up and said indeed Those who conceal what we have revealed of the proofs and guidance After that watch after that which we have made clear in the book to the people Those are the ones whom God has cursed and they are cursed by the cursors Except those who repent and reform and make it known Then those then those are the ones whom I will forgive For I am the compassionate and the merciful and another example in chapters 36 60 Again prophet Muhammad stood up and said did I not make an agreement with you or children of adam That you shall not serve the devil that he is a clear enemy to you and that you should serve me That is the straight and narrow path or that's the straight path And I'm using the great Quran translation which is translated by mabashraib So so God has put his words directly into his prophets That's something that jesus did and that's something what prophet Muhammad did He's be upon them both another definition that is found inside the bible of what a prophet is Is in numbers 12 6 He said listen to my words when there is a prophet among you I the lord reveal myself to them in visions. I speak to them in dreams There are many examples in the quran where god is supporting Supporting Muhammad with visions that Muhammad told his followers said visions and then they came into flotation Finally, Muhammad prophesized the end of the arabian polytheistic culture From the start of his journey. He made it very clear that the land will be clear from polytheism And the victory will come back to god Just like how jesus said that the victory should go back to god Now the one and only lord that created the skies and earth Is the lord that Muhammad preached about and uh and gave the victory too Now in luke 24 19 when the disciples allegedly spoke with jesus about jesus They said he was a prophet powerful in word and deeds before god and all the people So now the thing that I would like my opponents to focus on here is the part about the deeds before god Prophet Muhammad practiced everything that he preached He gave everything he had to the world and both knowledge and material gain He took care of the orphans. He took care of the needy. He prayed often and consistently He purified himself externally and internally. He was soft spoken well mannered and god-fearing as he grew in power and influence He protected the community and he didn't chase to the worldly pleasures He was steadfast and he was sure of god's promises that most have came to pass We are waiting for the biggest promise promise, which is the day of judgment Now a prophecy that every prophet needs to convey Prophet Muhammad not only did he practice what he preached But what he preached is what what he preached to the Gentiles is what moses david jesus Peace be upon him preached to the children of israel Muhammad wasn't an outliner or an edge case for what the religion is telling you to do as a human being And prophet Muhammad was powerful in word and deed before god and all the people So I would like to now hand it over to uh our colleagues on the other side Thank you very much Muhammad for that opening as well and I want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate We hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from christian atheist muslim you name it We're glad that you're here if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up You don't want to miss them and a couple of quick housekeeping things Someone just told me and showed me a screenshot today in the comments. There's someone impersonating modern day debate It is not anybody associated with modern day debate if they are in the comments Trying to get you to contact them on what's app In order to Do a business deal so just to be sure you know that's not modern day debate Just to be crystal clear as well as want to let you know all of our guest or linked in the description box Do check out their links even if you disagree you might as well at least understand what you're disagreeing with And with that, thank you very much. David wood and avery the floor is all yours for your opening as well You hear me james. Yes All right. Well, uh that they took about 12 and a half minutes. So I think we get about the same amount of time so that'll work Uh, so thanks james and thank you mohammed and shuaib for defending your profit Not a lot of muslims are willing to do that nowadays. Uh, so was mohammed a true prophet I've been interacting with muslims for many years I'm going to give my general overview on this topic based on Past discussions with muslims and from reading and so on and then for the remainder of this debate We can focus on the points raised by our muslim friends tonight I can't think of a person Anywhere in all of history that I would trust less less than I trust mohammed. Uh, he checks more False profit boxes than any other false prophet could ever dream of so let's think of a few of the different kinds of ways We that we can examine the prophet of islam So we've got spiritual reliability Mohamed's first impression of his revelations was that they were demonic He became so depressed that he tried to commit suicide his wife and her cousin Soon convinced him that he wasn't possessed. He was a prophet But I would say that sometimes your first impression is the correct one Mohammed once delivered a revelation from the devil. These are the infamous satanic verses which promoted polytheism He said you could pray to pagan goddesses. He eventually came back and said In effect, the devil made me do it Apparently mohammed couldn't tell the difference between a revelation from god and a revelation from satan Mohammed once claimed that he was the victim of a magic spell that gave him delusional thoughts and false beliefs And if you read about how mohammed received his revelations, it sounds like something out of an exorcist Film he would collapse on the floor. He would sweat profusely even in the cold His face would turn red not someone I would trust as spiritually reliable I wouldn't trust him as morally reliable either. I'm not saying he was bad in every way There are things that I would agree with Mohammed on But this is a guy who according to muslim sources tortured a man for money He owned and traded black african slaves. He had sex with a nine-year-old girl He had at least nine wives at one time even though the Quran only allows four turns out Allah told him He could break the four wife limit pretty convenient He married the wife of his own adopted son after causing the divorce by lusting after her He got caught having sex with his slave girl and his wife hops his bed He was allowed to have sex with his slave girls, but his wives didn't want him doing it in their own beds So he swore by Allah that he would never do it again Until Allah told him to break his oath and to go back to having sex with his slave girl If you don't see anything strange here, I I'm just gonna have to disagree Mohammed's teachings are dangerous He told his followers that women are stupid and that their testimony is only half as reliable as a man's testimony And that most of the inhabitants of hell are women He told his followers that they could beat their wives into submission He told his followers that they could rape their female captives He told his followers to expel jews and christians from the arabian peninsula leaving only muslims Told his followers to violently subjugate jews and christians told his followers that they would eventually exterminate the jews And the polytheists had it even worse He plagiarized stories from jews christians and other groups We see this accusation raised against him over and over again in the Quran And when we read about dual carnain and the sleepers of the cave and jesus speaking as a baby and jesus giving life to clay birds and so on We know where these stories came from and they don't come from anything authentic. It's all plagiarism Mohammed promoted idolatrous pagan practices like walking circles around the Kaaba and kissing the black stone These were practices of the pagans that became part of Islam Mohammed affirmed the inspiration Preservation and authority of the jewish and christian scriptures despite contradicting those scriptures on basic fundamental doctrines Shuaib even quoted 7157 for us where Where we're told that that we can find Mohammed in the Torah and the gospel So Mohammed is affirming our scriptures and contradicting them Mohammed received a revelation telling him how Allah would kill him if he were to fabricate revelations He said Allah would sever his aorta and it's exactly how he died He died saying that he could feel his aorta being severed How did Mohammed sell all of this to his followers? By promising them an eternity of deflowering virgins in paradise. My goodness So we can examine the prophet hood of Mohammed from a lot of different directions But no matter which direction we go. He really looks like a false prophet The question is whether there's some great evidence that i'm Missing that somehow shows he's a true prophet and i'll turn it over to avari and ask him What he thinks about the case that our muslim friends presented Well, I would say that it was interesting david We got told that uh, the cry we can find the criteria of what a true prophet is And first john chapter four and so I wanted to read First john a little bit just to see what we find as a criteria of a true prophet and a true believer So we have first john chapter two verse 22 to 23. It says this it says Who is the liar? But he who denies that jesus is the christ This is the antichrist he who denies the father and the son No one who denies the son has the father Whoever confesses the son Has the father also so according to the criteria that not we we didn't bring this up But uh our friend shuaib he brought this up as a criteria for us to to see What a true prophet is and so when we quote the Quran in chapter 19 it says That no one can come to Allah except as a slave In chapter nine verses 30 30 and 31 it talks about how To utter that the son that the messiah is the son of god is is is is An abomination to Allah. It's something that's disgusting That the earth and the universe come to in the shatter they they cringe at such an utterance. It's Perverse the Quran says so according to the criteria that our muslim friends appealed to Muhammad would be a false prophet In first john chapter four. This is what he quoted specifically He quoted the first five verses which is beautiful, but if we could keep reading down This is what it says in verse 13 It says by this we know That we abide in him and he and us so it's about to give us the criteria of how we know You have the spirit of god versus the spirit of error that our brother mentioned earlier It says because he has given us his spirit And we have seen and testified that the father has sent his son To be the savior of the world Whoever confesses that jesus is the son of god God abides in him and he in god so What we have is according to the criteria that our muslim friends appointed to appeal to Muhammad is a clear false prophet according to this criteria. He denies the father He denies the son and therefore he's a false prophet according to this criteria We we had a quote in isaac 42 Um, and and that was interesting as well because in isaac 42 it talks about how the servant how how god Places his spirit on the servant now I wonder if this is in line with islam whether or not Allah has a spirit Because whenever you say that you know that the these scriptures are Appeared, you know affirming the prophethood of Muhammad You are affirming that these verses align with islamic doctrine They cannot you can't quote a scripture that goes against islamic doctrine and says yeah, it's a prophecy from Allah So I want to know from our muslim friends if it lines up that Allah has a spirit that he sent down and placed on On Muhammad it says that the servant of the lord will do miracles According to the Quran Muhammad did know miracles. He was just a warner in fact chapter 17 verse 59 says Nothing nothing stops us from giving you the signs doing the miracles except the fact that the people in the past disbelieve So Allah says we're not going to give you any signs because people disbelieved in the past Kind of convenient to me, but you know, that's what the verse says. So according to this He heals the blind. He brings them out of darkness. He Works miracles and we have this quote in Matthew chapter 12 that literally gives us the fulfillment of this applying it to Jesus right and so this I mean goes against what the Quran says it contradicts the characteristics of Muhammad so there's no way in the world this can be talking about Muhammad um John chapter 16 was quoted as a criteria to show that Jesus was speaking of the coming Prophet Ahmed that's that's Muhammad now. This is what's interesting about this Um that he said that Jesus will give him all that is his and he will continue his message But according to verse 7 of john chapter 16 Jesus says that if I do not go away Um, he will not come but if I go away I will send him So the question arises. Did jesus send Muhammad our muslim friends have to has to answer this now Here's what's interesting Is that we can't fall away and say that oh now this is corrupted Because they're saying that this john chapter 16 and john chapter 14 about the comforter is god's revelation is Allah's revelation And is the proof for Muhammad's prophethood So this is the injil that the Quran was affirming Saying that we can find the unlettered prophet written in our scriptures in our gospel This is the injil that they're pointing to so they're affirming that we actually have the injil today and we can find God's word his inspired word in the text Well according to god's inspired word in the text that they're appealing to It says that jesus is the one who sends the comforter If Muhammad is the comforter and jesus sends Muhammad That would make jesus the god of Muhammad since I believe that they believe that Allah is the one that sent Muhammad Uh, they quoted john chapter 14 uh, ironically Verses 13 and 14 where jesus says anyone who asks in my name I will do it if you ask me anything in my name I will do it so they quote a verse That's where jesus says that when he goes away believers all around the world Can pray to him can send the requests up to him He can hear all the prayers and he knows how to answer them and has the ability to answer whatever it is that they're asking Proving that jesus is omnipotent omnipresent all hearing all knowing all powerful And that he's god who can answer receive and answer prayers I I don't know why they would quote that but Uh, you know, that's that's a little tough and then continuing on about The spirit of truth who will come it says that the world cannot see him Uh, I believe that the world saw Muhammad people saw Muhammad arabia a lot of uh meccans definitely saw Muhammad and his sword Uh, uh, it says that that he dwells with the disciples Says that the disciples know him and he dwells with you and catch this will be in you So according to the verses that our muslim friends quote Muhammad Can't be seen by the world was never seen by the world Uh, Muhammad knew the disciples was with the disciples presently and then eventually when jesus sends Muhammad back now Muhammad will indwell the disciples and give them spiritual gifts and inspiration If you are going to quote these verses you have a lot of problems when it comes to islamic theology um luke 24 was quoted to show again some type of uh, uh, uh relevance relevance to Muhammad's prophethood but luke 24 Jesus himself says that it's according to the scriptures that the messiah should die suffer and rise again on the third day and that forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name Is this islam? Does this match the islamic message according to the quran jesus was not crucified It was me And he was crucified So if it was made to appear that jesus was crucified and it didn't happen yet jesus says that he was crucified dies by crucifixion raises again on the third day according to the scriptures And muhammad contradicts that then muhammad is a false prophet So what we see here is according to our muslim friends their own criteria that they appeal to Muhammad is a false prophet. Thank you guys so much Thank you very much for that opening as well and a couple of other housekeeping things folks If you haven't yet and you're enjoying this debate hit that like button As that tells youtube that you want to see more debates like this do it for yourself So the algorithm knows what to serve you in terms of what you enjoy We're going to read super chats during the qna But want to let people know we don't just read super chats during qna So you don't have to do a super chat sometimes when we're on limited time We only get to read super chats, but we do try to read Questions that are just standard questions if you tag me in chat as well and If you haven't yet Check out the modern day debate podcast. It's on every podcast app And with that we're going to jump into the open dialogue. Thank you very much gentlemen. The floor is all yours Well, I just want to open up by saying that Avery, I don't honestly I don't think you understood how a debate works because you were supposed to come with an opening statement And tell us about your position rather than to give a rebuttal on what we presented So you didn't present anything you just Took five minutes to talk about what we said but rather you didn't show anything from your end David on the other hand did bring show something, but I think you you at this point already failed the debate No, it's it's it's pretty common, uh, mohammed to use part of the opening since the burden of proof is on the person who brings the case It's pretty it's it's a it's a matter of choice to Use some of the opening statement time to issue a rebuttal so yeah, but then there's a disadvantage because then we would have had you to start and then we would have dealt with you That way that's why it's a disadvantage and you start with the opening remark and then we do the rebuttals But it's okay. I understand how to Yeah, I just wanted to point out if the if the burden of proof is on you We don't have to we don't have to make a positive case at all. We could just respond to your case But yeah, so we did a little mix but yeah your point point taken but but go ahead. What do you want to talk about? Well, actually my first question is to you is David. What is Islamic sources? What are Islamic sources? Well, there are a bunch you've got Sunni and Shia sources. So you've got the Quran and the Hadith would be the main sources. Uh, then you have uh, you can have you know tough seer and Um, the seer and so on but yeah, I did kind of a mix So to hear the word of man is the Islamic source when we're talking about theology and God It's not the actual scripture that came down Well, if you're talking about I mean if you're talking about I mean the vast majority of Muslims are Sunni Muslims So you're talking between 80 and 90 percent of Muslims are Sunni Muslims who would uh, take uh, who would take Um, like Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim the Sahih Sita and uh, basically any any Hadith that you can uh prove is sound They would take seriously and then of course you have the uh, the seer but yeah, I'm just I'm just this is If we're if we're making a case about Muhammad We have to go to the historical sources if we want to I mean put put it this way If we don't have historical sources or Islamic sources because there's a difference between historical sources and what man said And what you're considering as Islamic sources Because you're just appealing to the majority at this point because at the same time I can present What Unitarian Christians and red and letter Christians uh talk about Jesus and the same things that Christians Who reject the letters of all and who gave Paul in Christianity, which is the majority But obviously when it comes to Islamic standard, it's wrong So if you want us to appeal to Sunniism and Shiaism, which there's clear flaws in what they say which contradicts Islamic sources Then at that point you're making your own, uh, like how can I say you're making your own like, uh Case and then beating it so it doesn't make sense when it comes down when you don't know what Islamic sources are Well, if you want to reject sources, you can just say hey, David that whatever you said about Muhammad there I reject that source and we can just say, okay This would apply to uh through the vast majority of Muslims, but not necessarily I just that the point but that's how it goes Because you talked about suicide you talked about satanic versus about magic spells And then you put that as Muslim sources when they all contradict the Qur'an Because literally the Qur'an says those are not Muslim sources Those are things by the Sahih Al-Bakar that's not a Muslim source That is definitely not a Muslim source that is written by a people after the Qur'an The Qur'an is the Muslim source if you want to take there All right, and that's that's fine by the way, but I'll just I'll just say it's a it's a problem either way Because if we go with the sources, we have all these kinds of problems Uh, if you reject those sources, which you can and I've actually I've actually warmed up to the idea of I used to think like Wow, I treat these sources as more reliable than than than some Muslims who are criticizing them But yes, I've seen that there are problems with with some of these sources Even though the vast majority of Muslims still believe in them But I wanted to say even if you reject these sources There's a problem because if we're asking whether Muhammad is a prophet It kind of helps it kind of helps to know who we're who we're talking about who we're investigating If we don't have reliable historical sources on him Then we don't know what we're talking about and you could just say any any sort of random person Is uh is a true prophet. Oh by the way Your criteria your criteria of measuring who jesus is is going back to the bible But when it comes down like to the gospels, but when we're going to come to the criteria of Muhammad We're going to go by what the jews said about Muhammad I'm talking about like people like abu huraira and all the other friends that people put on a pedestal Because they were forced to put on a pedestal but said contradicting remarks about Muhammad And they said things that god the word of god said that Muhammad did not do So when Muhammad says that these believers say that you are cursed and you're a magician and that you are possessed Then they go say oh, Muhammad was possessed So for people to repeat the lie just like how you guys repeat a lie This has been something that's evident in history that carries on time over time over time After the first 50 to 100 years after a major prophet appears Somewhere comes around tries to subvert the religion. This happened with every Abrahamic religion including yours when you're trying to When like when every wants to conflate what is Mentioned as a son in the bible But then they want to make it as a begotten son when david was mentioned as a son But he's not the begotten son of god But when you want to come back and you want to throw sources of what man said rather than show me in the quran Where Muhammad is not a prophet because you haven't done that you haven't quoted the quran Oh good good every yes, so so, um, Muhammad So the the Muhammad that's described in the hadith Would you say that this Muhammad that this that's described in the hadith that has these These suicide attempts that has these, you know, spells casted on him Be which means satanic verses that this would be a false prophet The person that's mentioned in the hadith is not the prophet that we follow Right So would you consider if if if Sunnis are appealing that that's Muhammad that that That would be a false prophet and that's described every if you want if you would like to debate Sunnis We can bring you Sunnis No, he's asking he's asking you a question I understand that but but the question that he's presenting it said if I say oh The prophet in the books that you're quoting is a fake prophet Then you're going to try to apply that back to me Oh, you see he might not believe it, but he's the fake prophet of everyone I'm being very clear the prophet that you're quoting is not the topic of the debate The topic of the debate is prophet Muhammad who's brought the quran. We're talking about the quran We're not talking about Sahih Bukhari. We're not talking about Sahih Muslim because we're saying the word sahih But they're not Sahih. They have no Authenticity nor do they have any any standing on the day of judgment. I'm not going to appeal to a man Just like how you appeal to a genocidal genocidal maniac crazy psychopath named Saul the apostate They wanted to kill a bunch of christians and they came back and said oh Well, I talked to Jesus and Jesus is the son of god. So now you have to believe me We don't follow the same kind of criteria So, please if you want to talk about the debate prophet Muhammad, let's stick with the quran, please So, okay, so this this what I'm confused about. I don't know why you couldn't answer the question It's very simple because we're bringing up Islamic sources and you say that you reject these Islamic sources, which is fine. So I'm asking you simply According to these Islamic sources or these sources you say is by men In the Muhammad that's described in these sources. You're saying it's fake. You don't follow that whatever That's not the guidance in the quran So would that be a false prophet in these hadiths narrations? Is that a false prophet? Yes or no, bro If the one the one in the hadith is not the one we use does it? So is the one in the hadith a false prophet that's all I want to know why are we talking about him We don't use that prophet. Let's talk about the prophet. We are here for don't ask us about the prophet We are not here for what kind of question is that every No, he's we are we are look let's listen We are here for a prophet of the quran If you want to justify your means by proving he's a false prophet go to the our book of authority That is the quran go to that book and prove to me where he's a false prophet or he's not a prophet Don't go to other sources. We are not here to represent others Well, should I have noticed notice what you just said we're here to talk about the quran Not other sources and yet you repeatedly repealed to other sources. You you try to show them from the bible So if you can go to outside sources, why can't we go to No, I'm debating. I'm debating with christians here. So I have Good, so when I'm debating with you, I have to use your book of authority and my book of authority Let's not go to other books which are not presented on the table If you want if you if you want to talk about the hadith we can bring you sunnis And sectarians Okay, who attached things to god that are not from god for you to have these Ridiculous debate that go no, but if you want to talk about prophet muhammad We're going to talk about your book, right? Which is the gospel the old testament and the new testament right and we're going to talk about our book We can define what a prophet is from the quran because god clearly defines what a Prophet is from the quran the prophets are sent as warners and and bring Clear missionaries get a book missionaries They get a book for god to judge between the people prophet muhammad did that But you will not take the definition that's in our book. So we have to Show from your own sources your sources that you believe in that he is a prophet But when you're going to come to us and say, hey, look harry potter This is his definition of what a prophet is. Well, you guys have to believe that no I'm not talking about buchari or muslim or tabari or all these people that have absolutely nothing to do with the word of god So that's why and that's why yeah, and that's why avary was was asking like if someone came and said Hey, I believe in jesus, but he's a jesus who was an alien from another planet and he uh, he uh, He he he tortured people for fun and and did all these things and so on and you say Hey, do you believe in that jesus? We say no, we don't believe in that. Well, no, no, we don't believe in that jesus We don't we don't so that's not that's not what you're like. He's he's asking you if the muhammad Of sunni islam that is based in large part on the hadith would be a false prophet Even though you don't believe in that in that you believe in the muhammad as defined by the karan. I am That is a question Muhammad, let me tackle that that is a question for the secti and as soon as the she has to answer you on that We're asking you Yeah, but you're asking this but that has nothing to do with the topic of today. We're trying to understand You believe in that? No, no our book of what? Okay, that's it. That's it. That's good. That's fine We don't believe in those books No, do we believe that the character that they're representing as our prophet and you asking that question You are trying to paint an image. Okay, where you are trying to use it against us that or the majority believes So technically you call him a fake prophet. So it goes back to you. This is uh an evil tactic So as god said and we're talking about the spirit of truth Let's come back to the truth that we have and the truth that is in between you now the quran said Very clearly that god brought down the quran and one of its purpose is to Show the things that the children of israel used to differ in So there was a lot of problems that happened by the children of israel because they wrote things down and said that it's from god when it's not from god For example in the old testament They say that erin worshiped the calv or built calv for them to worship the quran saying no He freed the prophet from such a thing. Okay, just like now in the children of israel They say anyone who was crucified has a curse from god. He's damned by god He is not a person of holiness Whoever is crucified and then you go in the new testament and say jesus was crucified So god was clearing his name saying no, he was not crucified and there was no damnation on the messiah of god That's what we want to stick to the brand and i'll talk about just to just to clarify So you're appealing to scriptures that you regard as uh false and uh and flawed and you're appealing to those as your case that Muhammad is a true prophet, but you reject them as corrupted But wait, let me let me answer that Uh, we just we just came here. Why are you pushing down a claim on us? We never made Did you hear? It sounded like it sounded like he was saying that the quran is coming to correct things from the uh And that the quran so in the in the gospels which you guys quoted to show that Muhammad is a prophet It says that jesus died by crucifixion He's saying that the the quran came to correct that claim So that would mean that our sources are wrong But you're appealing to sources that you say are wrong to show that Muhammad is a a true prophet So i'm just saying that's that's uh, that's a little weird saying. Hey, we don't believe that source that source Your book your book of authority is made up of uh, uh man made uh concept and then godly concept as well It's not only the worst of god and tired. We have men worse of men inside a book Which you can testify to that Okay, how do you distinguish between the words of god that you're appealing to to show that Muhammad is a prophet And the words of men that you reject as flawed and corrupt the criteria is clear Just like the verses i quoted with which are every misquoted a lot of things i said out of context Now if you take worse of god worse of god should be able to be confirmed Where the worst of god are confirmed by each other as always For instance, if we take a criteria of a prophet based on what the quran gives you It has to fit in every criteria which was in the past So if I go to your book of authority and I can access verses which falls in the same criteria That shows that this is the criteria god has actually Embedded into us now if you go and tell me that if I go to your bible And I think your bible is false and i'm trying to use it I never said your bible is false in the first place So the point is if it's false and then I will not even entirely go to quote universe to make a claim there I will just take it put it on the side and stick with the quran But the point is the quran is here to confirm certain things Not entirely Certain things which are true in your book but it doesn't mean the entirety of your book is is true So that is the point we are making it. Yeah, so I'd like to I'd like to hear from avry on this But but what I'm hearing is we say how do how do we know that Muhammad is a prophet and you say well The quran says that he's mentioned in the bible So you go to the bible and you find things and say this Well, no, no, that's not what I said I didn't say the quran says it's mentioned in the bible. No, you said I said the bible is the book of your authority whereby you quoted 7 157 7 1 that's quran. Yeah, torrent the gospel Okay, but he says whom they found written With them and their Torah and the gospel now if right now if we have to base this argument on the Torah of the gospel I can strike your books down and tell you that is not the authentic books you even have But then yes, we have some words in your books which are from God which I can testify to that. Yes I can Oh, why it keeps muting and unmuting. I don't I don't know what's going on here You say I think you're far away from the mic and the mic is not picking it up because it has like a little sensitive sensory Is it is it clearing my can you guys hear me clearly right now? Yeah, we can hear you. Yeah, good So so um, I was just curious on the subject about you know, because you guys quoted you guys quoted john to to uh, You know firm muhammad's prophethood Do you guys believe that these what these scriptures that you quoted in john are revelations of a law? It's a criteria based on your book of authority, right in the first place Wait, it's a criteria of what a prophet is based on your book of authority which we used But but here here every every even even if we do a test that it is uh revelation from god The explanation of what we are understanding is what being said is not aligned to what you're saying So when for example when you're saying he does not confirm the father prophet muhammad does confirm the father But we don't call him the father I'm asking a very straightforward question Do you believe that the verses that you quoted to affirm muhammad's prophethood Is revelation from a law? Yes or no some of it some of the yes, which of the verses are you talking about be specific That you guys quoted you guys believe that those are revelation of a law, correct? Which of the verses Once you quote the the the answer I gave david was clear enough I told him not the entirety of the your book is from god Save my entire deal But guys I didn't ask if my entire book is Allah's revelation I asked the verses that you quoted are those the Yes, or no Yeah, that is the one which falls in the criteria of the quran. Yes. Yes. Good According to the verses that you quoted. Do you believe Jesus sent muhammad? What again? I this goes back to my opening statement. I know what you're saying avry, but but I already told you this I already told you this in the opening statement So prophet muhammad every every we cannot hear you every your your your mic is breaking up We can't hear your statements But I think I understand what you're saying So when you're you're going back to the point when he said I will send him As in jesus was talking in first person that jesus sent muhammad But I will go back to my opening statement when muhammad was speaking in first person when muhammad stood up and he said Sir or worship me that is the straight and narrow path We're not told to worship muhammad when he's saying that I am I will forgive them and I am the most merciful I am the most compassionate that is muhammad talking on behalf of god in the first person So when jesus who is also in prophet just like prophet muhammad peace be upon both of them He said I will send him. He is speaking on the behalf of what you would consider the father Got it. So if he's speaking on behalf of what I would consider the father in that text jesus says if I do not go away I He will not come but if I go away I will send him. So are you saying that jesus is quoting the father saying that the father's going away not jesus Now, yeah, every you you mean he was saying who are you talking about a confoter? Are you talking about a spirit of truth? So the verse that you quoted jesus says that I will send him But according to so now according to muhammad jesus isn't really speaking of himself He's really quoting the father. So then according to muhammad It's not jesus that's going away. It's the father that's going away. Who will send the comforter Is that right? So that references I give Allah's the one that's going away They're talking about isiah, right? No, and john chapter six John chapter 16 Which is what suede quoted talking about the comforter Jesus says that I will send him I never I never spoke about a comforter She did you quoted john chapter you quoted john 16 as 16 verse what? Verses 12 to 13 about the comforter Where does where does he mention? I mentioned chapter 16 verse 12 to 15. He says spirit of truth Yeah, because jesus jesus says the comforter is the spirit of truth. Where give me a verse So go go to go to verse go to verse seven. Hold on. Let's uh, let's actually pull it up together Go to verse seven. Are you going to go 16 verse seven? Oh, yes, it's the same He doesn't he doesn't say that Let's see. Let's okay. I can read it. It absolutely does So nevertheless, I tell you the truth is to your advantage that I go away for if I do not go away The comforter the paraclete Will not come to you but if I will send him Yeah, where does it say spirit of truth in that verse? Uh, let let me let me break let me break it down because No, this is this is all one passage 14 through 16 are all one are all one passage So in in chapter 14 verse 16 And he said now I will ask the father and he will give you another advocate or comforter To help you and be with you forever the spirit of truth That's verse 17 the spirit of truth. And then you go down Um, and then he says that so notice he says the comforter is the spirit of truth And then in verse 26, wait, wait, wait, which verse are you saying that the comforter is the spirit of truth? Yes Tell me which verse which verse are you saying that let's crush it John chapter 14 verses 16 to 17 And I will ask the father and he will give you another advocate or comforter That's what's translated as comforter the the paraclete toss the paraclete to help you and be with you forever The spirit of the spirit of truth So Jesus even even which bible are you reading which version are you reading? He says even the spirit of truth. He doesn't say the comforter You can say even the spirit of truth I have a question if somebody says that god As or a person who is a christian turns away from the church no longer believes in god that god did he the god leave him The spirit of god leave him No, i'm asking you a simple question if someone turns away from the religion. Can't you say that god left him? No, no, no, no, he would you've never said the fact that this guy has turned away from god or god has left him He is no longer in the presence of god So it does not need to be a metaphysical explanation of what Jesus is saying here Is that I have to leave is that the grace of god has to leave the the the remembrance of god has to leave or the people being Like the people being submissive to god that notion had to leave Wait, you're saying you're saying that when you're saying that when jesus says I leave he's talking about all these other things I mean, no, he he's the entire idea about this is spoken parable the whole time Yeah, this is making no sense. He the the entire passage starts off with him telling his followers I'm going away and you're sad because i'm going away But I want you to know that it's good for you that i'm going away Because then I will send the comforter And so this entire passage is about him being crucified and resurrected and you're saying no He might be talking about we know exactly what he's talking about It's it's there's nothing confusing here about what he's talking about but but guys, uh, let me chime in here You see the paracletos is different from the spirit of truth Jesus says the period Jesus says the paracletos this year. He doesn't say he doesn't say the prayer You quoted chapter 14 verse 16 to 17. It doesn't say and I let me quote and I will ask the father And he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever the spirit of truth And We'll have to figure out later. I think it is true that if somebody else is speaking Avery's like not able to start The his mic won't send any Uh message so avria if you had something I wanted to give you a chance to say it. Yeah, am I good now? Yeah, and we'll go right to you. Should we uh, should I write it out? Yeah, that's that's weird. So so yeah, so You literally have the verse where Jesus explicitly says That the comforter the comparaclete is the spirit of truth And then you also have in john 15 verse 26. He says this But when the comforter comes whom I will send to you from the father The spirit of truth Who comes out of the father? He will bear witness about me Dude, there's no way around it. Say that again. Say say this again. Yeah Jesus says that he Will send the comforter the spirit of truth From the father who comes out of the father So do you guys so do you guys believe? Do you guys believe? Do you guys believe that Jesus? Sins Muhammad who comes out of Allah? By the permission of whom it is only the base Muhammad wait it is only based on the translation you are using we have different versions of translation of your bible Which doesn't translate the way you are. Yes. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Hey Shuai. I'm looking at the greek right now Yes, I'm looking at the greek right now. Yes, and it's uh, it's exactly what it says here I will ask the father. He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever the spirit of truth I don't like If you're finding that confusing I will ask the father He will give you another advocate or comforter to help you and be with you forever the spirit of truth Who's the spirit of truth chapter 14 john chapter 14 verse 26 clearly tells you who the comforter is Is the holy spirit, which is yes, it's all that's all the same the spirit The same No, no, no, it's not the same It's not the same Guys, no, no, it's a big difference. Look, there is no difference. Look, wait, maybe As you guys know, I like to keep things organic But I do want to just to be sure that we're not we're not speaking over each other too much Is let's jump into 30 second intervals. Okay. So I want to defer to Forgive me brother. I'm so sorry. It's Shuai, right? Yes Shuai, okay, so right patients We'll go to shuai first this time and then we'll go right over to david. So 30 seconds shuai the floor is yours Okay, thank you So I call that first john chapter four verse one to show the criteria of a spirit of truth according to the bible It says beloved believe not every spirit But try the spirits whether they are of god But because many false prophets are gone out of the world then he says here by Know ye the spirit of god So you see the criteria the spirit of god is going to be determined here Then we know who is the spirit of truth So every spirit that confesses that jesus christ is come in the flesh is of god Now when you read down words up to verse six, then it tells you we are of god He that know god here is he that is not of god. He has not us here by know We the spirit of truth from the end the spirit of error So by this criteria, you know, the spirit of truth is a true prophet While the spirit of error is a false prophet So hereby when you go to the verse i'm explaining earlier by telling you guys Her holy spirit is different from the spirit of truth chapter john chapter 14 That's about 60 seconds. We'll give the same to david 60 seconds david Yeah, so uh avar already pointed out you're you're you're saying you're talking about jesus christ coming in the flesh But john in first john as avar quoted tells you what he's talking about He's talking about the divine son and he says if you're rejecting that son You're rejecting both the father and the son so John defines what he's talking about you given an islamic interpretation which doesn't fit at all as for right This is not confusing. This is basic logic if a equals b and b equals c then a equals c john says in the passage you guys quote. That's why we're going here. You guys quoted this Jesus says i will ask the father. He will give you another advocate comforter to help you and be with you forever The spirit of truth One second i gotta i gotta give david the the last uh, sorry, give him an answer Then we'll go to you mohammed once david is done with his last 15 seconds here Yeah, don't change the subject Jesus says the comforter is the spirit of truth and then the comforter is the holy spirit if jesus Is i mean if the comforter is the spirit of truth and the spirit of i mean and the If the spirit of truth is the comforter and the comforter is the holy spirit Then the spirit is the then the spirit of god is the holy I mean the spirit of truth is the holy spirit if we're having trouble at that level if that if that's somehow confusing Then my goodness mohammed got 30 or what is it 60 seconds mohammed? I don't need the full 30 seconds The spirit of truth is a spirit speaking the truth The holy spirit comes with the angels to cause revelation not everybody who has a spirit of truth Speaking the truth has the holy spirit and be what does it mean that i will ask the father Okay, so he's asking for permission So later in the second verse that you quoted right the father will send Like i will send as in the i ask permission and the father from the father. He's coming from the father So the father has the priority by who he's coming from coming from the father by who one minute brother Look at it. I'm asking the father and the father will send. So does jesus commanded the father Wait, wait, wait, just the father sent so so just just let's let's put it all together You have jesus who asked the father and he will send you another comforter You have jesus saying that i will send you the comforter the spirit of truth from the father So you have both the father and jesus involved in sending the comforter Do you believe that both allah and jesus are involved in sending mohammed brother? Yes, jesus supplicated for god one listen Jesus supplicated to god god accepted the supplication. So i'm gonna ask the father the father said yes So because the supplication was accepted So it came because on behalf of jesus But it's only by the permission by the favor by the permission of god if god said no there is no mohammed You're just so twisted in your head that you want to give victory back to jesus when god literally Jesus himself right now as well as giving victory back to the father He's saying i will ask the father the father was said so jesus didn't send nobody. Thank you very much Okay, so this so this so this is what we have here ladies and gentlemen We just had mohammed admit that he does believe that jesus was involved With allah partnering with allah and sending mohammed He never said partner Oh What i want to do is i want to let's let's just because i appreciate your guys's passion It's It's a much more lively debate than a boring debate. So i like it that you guys are vigorous But i let's go with 60 seconds for Avery and then we'll give you a full 60 seconds to i think shu aib we haven't heard from you for a while We'll give you a full 60 seconds after that if you want to correct anything that avery said All right, thanks. Yeah, so so i asked you very specifically Do you believe that jesus and allah sent mohammed? You said yes And then you went to go on and then you went to go on and clarify What you mean that jesus by supplication is involved because of his supplication He's involved in sending mohammed my man. It says nothing about supplication. It says I will ask the father. He will send I will send him from the father. I will send him from the father I will send him from the father and guess what that mohammed comes out of allah He comes out of do you Like the way that this destroys his theology is crazy. Do you believe please answer this for me Do you believe that mohammed comes out of allah that that jesus and allah sent mohammed from out of allah Do you believe that everything came from god and we return to god, you know, that's not what i asked Do you believe that? No, i'm very split i'm a i'm a simple man I'm a simple man. I gave you a very did mohammed comes out of god Yes, because everything came out of god. Okay returns to god. I got you. I got you. All right, so you're so twisted in your head You're so twisted in your head changing the context of what i said But you call rest of these things which i'm not saying This is this is my little this is my little time man. Give me my little time to shine so look What we have here is we have both jesus and allah sent mohammed we have What's that mean? Oh, we have allah who sin Allah and jesus sin mohammed and mohammed comes out of allah I'm stuck fully love man. You have just left Islam. This is crazy to me But i'm a rest of this mom because Every every i don't tell me about leaving Uh, I hate to stop the screen share just that if we do the screen share It scrambles the screen on me. We'll definitely should we should i will give you a chance to share your screen Oh, I loved it. I loved it. It was right on there. It was right on the screen We'll give you a great english and greek. I think we've run out of time Avery and then we'll so we'll kick it over 60 seconds to shawai And if you'd like to share now go ahead shawai So this is this is the verse because it's all it's all about perspective John chapter 15 verse 26 now when you check where i'm highlighting this is it comes with a greek it says when When the uh, uh, this helper that's the paracletus whom I will send to you from their father Then there is a comma in between Then it says the spirit of truth who? From the father who goes forth from the father listen There's a difference here when jesus said the the helper whom he will send It is different statement from saying the spirit of truth Who goes forth from the father? You see two different separate instances here It is not like jesus sending the same spirit of truth You know no one is jesus saying the spirit of truth is still the paracletus I don't know which kind of english you're trying to present to us here But you are twisting west clearly and the verse is in front of us and it says this spirit of truth He will bear witness concerning me. So tell me how this if you say it's the holy spirit How does the old spirit bear witness of jesus bring us the evidence and show us how does he do that? Um, it's it's literally right there on the screen I will whom I will send Guys, this is all this this is this is all the same passage guys I don't I don't know how to even have a debate if words off the page are too confusing jesus says jesus Hey We didn't interrupt. I didn't interrupt. Yeah, there's a about another 50 seconds from david and then promise will go right to you Uh, mohammed for 60 seconds as well All right, so just to recap. I have no idea why this is confusing I will ask the father and he will give you another advocate or comforter to help uh to help you and be with you forever The spirit of truth comforter is the spirit of truth Same chapter a few verses later But the comforter the holy spirit whom the father will send in my name will teach you all things And will remind you of everything I said to you notice Jesus is saying the father sends but then in chapter 15 and chapter 16 as avry pointed out Jesus says I will send it's the father and the son Together sending the holy spirit just as at jesus baptism. It's the father and the holy spirit who together identify jesus These passages are thoroughly trinitarian. You can't understand them apart from the doctrine of the trinity And you're you're finding mohammed somehow in these passages. That's okay but if if mohammed is sent by Allah and the father and Jesus are the ones who send the comforter if you're saying that's mohammed then fine mohammed is sent by The father and the son which would make the father and the son Allah Okay, good over mohammed really quick. I just want to do a couple of quick First is that right after this debate. So this is a short debate folks stick around for all of it right after during this same livestream So you're already here for the second debate. You're at the right place We're gonna have a second short debate on whether or not Jesus was a muslim or is a muslim and Want to be sure that you know about that We will re-release each of these debates within 24 hours My hope is to release the first one tonight as a standard upload We're gonna chop them into two and then release them as their own standalone debates here on modern day debate But we're gonna kick it over to mohammed. There's one last housekeeping thing I was going to say but go ahead mohammed and I'll remember it Quick question. So when you guys said that which I didn't mean it in the way that you said it That jesus's application was part of the process of the helper being sent You said that that was me associating jesus to god and that I left islam, right? No, that's not what I said. What I said was is that you Left islam when you admit it that you believe that both all law and jesus were involved in sending mohammed You also left islam when you said that mohammed comes out of a law Every every I already told you something that's very simple. It's a yes or no I said jesus is part of the process of where the helper was sent because of supplication And you said that I left islam because I associated jesus to god Now you on the other hand, you're saying that jesus is associated to god So whatever the concept of you like unifying god or unitarian Understanding of a monotheist that god you yourself admit that associating jesus to god is not something that's supposed to be done in islamic standards One there is a verse that we repeat often when we're in trouble as god told us to say in the orhan We are from god and we will return to god We are from god and we will return to god. Where did mohammed come from other than from god? So yes, he did come from god I didn't leave islam for saying that and no jesus was part of the process because he was looking for out for humanity later Because idiots that want to lie and twist and say that god has a begotten son and the mother of god and all this nonsense God sends another refresher for the gentiles and for the rest of the world a billion people Living now nine billion people in total Understood the truth that's in the orhan and they could see the similar truth that's in your gospel And it's in the Torah So, please brother if you don't know what islamic sources are yet alone You're gonna come tell people that left islam when you don't even know what a monotheistic religion is Okay, good over to avery or avery. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to ask him something So you believe that we all come from god. Here's my question specifically. I'm very specific I'm not asking you if we come from god Do you come from do you come out of Allah? Yes or no I don't understand your semantics because someone is coming from someone. He came out of someone I don't understand what your semantic problem is. So you believe that we all come out of Allah If you're created from god, where did you come from? I'm just asking a sibling Do you because because adam was created from dust and clay and things of this nature and he breathed into him Okay, but the dust where did that come from? Okay. So it's it's the earth that he creates. Did the dust come from out of Allah? Wait, wait, did who created the matter? Wait, wait, wait simply simple simple Did the did the dust of the earth or did the earth come out of Allah? Oh, okay. So matter is not from god god. There's no no no And god is somewhere else. Please answer the question. Did the dust or the earth or matter does it come from out? Does it come out of Allah's own essence? Everything comes from god's essence Okay, so everything is Allah Pantheism, baby. Yo, man. Okay. So thank you. Thank you for answering. I appreciate it. So look, he's correct He's correcting us on what monotheism is. Oh, man. So this is what we have ladies and gentlemen what we have Hold on. We're gonna go just a little bit Avery will give you 15 seconds for and then we're gonna go to Muhammad for a full 60 seconds Yeah, yeah, yeah, so what we have ladies and gentlemen is that all everything is part of Allah Everything comes out of Allah. Everything is something of some things of Allah's essence This man has committed the highest Shirk innovation i've ever seen in my life I don't even know of you if i'm dating muslim if i'm uh debating muslims right now. I do not dating me You're not dating me one B. You know, you're not my dad. There is no power. There is no power There is no power. I know your type is of a liar's and losers There is no power except from god. You understand that there is no power except from god The reality is god So whatever you're seeing is an essence that came from god that comes back to god that god will judge Everyone has their individualism that is responsible for their free choice But I want to give my time back to shahab because it's shahab's turn to It really was i don't know. I know i'm not your type. I'm too beautiful And I know shahab is not your your type because he's too intelligent. So here you go They are they are playing the worst of semen things here. Mohammed. Don't don't mind every anyways every talk about you talk about spirits Muhammad never had spirit on him or whatever. That's that's what you said earlier on If you go to quran chapter 17 verse 85 it clearly mentioned the ruhu, which is the spirit Right and quran chapter 16 verse 102 talks about the spirit the holy spirit bringing down the book the quran To the prophet and quran chapter 58 verse 22 clearly says god supports the believers with the spirit from him Right and quran chapter 42 verse 52 clearly tells us that Muhammad was inspired with the spirit from god So if you are saying Muhammad never had any spirit of god with him I don't know where you got your point of view from but regardless also When I quoted my verses you try to quote some of the verses of the quran as a ribata trying to say What what I'm saying is not in line with what makes prophet Muhammad a true prophet So you even went to the extent by quoting chapter 9 verse 31 to 32 You you you went to quoted first john chapter 4 verse 18 concerning anti christ I'm not here to tell you about anti christ or anti this. I'm just giving you a criteria Which says that if any spirit which actually testifies that jesus came of flesh is of god Which Muhammad did we have verses to boast of that? Clearly where Muhammad actually testified that jesus came of flesh We are not here to give you criteria of who is an anti christ Who is not an anti christ the criteria is who is the spirit of truth That is a true prophet to give you the words of god and guidance. That's all So I don't know why you went out of the order my turn james Yep Oh, yeah, I just wanted to to recap here and this is really an illustration of the entire problem here You're saying, ah, we're not here to talk about the anti christ. No, you cited first john schwaib You cited first john and said aha this confirms Muhammad these these same these same book When it's the same book says that if you deny that jesus is the son Of the father then this is the spirit of anti christ. So that's what you we're just going to what you listed As your criteria then you go to the book of john Where I mean jesus the chapters I mean one the book starts off by identifying jesus as the word who was god who became flesh You get to chapter 14 where jesus calls himself the way the truth and the life titles of Jesus says that when he goes away, he can answer our prayers Jesus says it's good because he can go away and where he can answer prayers And he will go to the father and the father and the son together will send the comforter You say Muhammad is the comforter, which would mean that Muhammad is sent by the father and the son And since Muhammad was sent by Allah, this would make father and son together Allah and we're just saying if you if you're if you're claiming that jesus is involved in the way he says In the passage that you guys quoted with sending Muhammad Uh It just sounds very different from what we're familiar with in Islam Muhammad is involved in my guidance even though i'm getting guided by god So i'm not saying that Muhammad is the one who's guiding me and saying god is guiding me And you don't even know what partnership is i have a question for you to understand what partnership That's exactly what you're doing. I'm glad you understand the concept. But now did abraham did abraham Would he bow down to a son of god? What about isaac and ishmael isaac and uh jaco Would they also admit if they were alive today that jesus is the begotten son of god? And they would have to sit there and worship jesus. You know what? I love this question david This is actually you know what you're not far from the kingdom for asking that question I don't even think that it was you that that that got inspired with that question I think the father of in heaven told you to ask this question because this is beautiful because what we have is In john chapter 8 jesus literally says that abraham saw him met him and was glad when he saw him Worshiped him adored him and bowed to him. This is this is john chapter 8 This is john chapter 8 and this is the response of the jews is wait, you're not even 50 years old Have you seen abraham? You want to know what his response is? Before abraham was i am i love that you keep quoting verses that point to the deity of christ the sovereignty of christ And how muhammad is a false prophet dude. You're helping us. It's three against one right now, man But here's here's the thing. So you have like four imams, right? You're you're four books. How come it's only in john? Is there any other books that say that abraham you're the you're the guys We're quoting john because you guys quoted john We go that first we go that That the point is like what would the point you up in here is Guys, let's let's take let's do so just to be clear you guys can quote a source But we can't quote the exact same source back to you Let's stay on the topic like you're going you're drifting remember the topic is based on about muhammad brought it up Your your partner muhammad brought up abraham abry responded abry responded and you say no no no don't go there No, no, that's not what i said. That's not what i said. I said is what i'm saying is from the gospel saying the same thing Should i just one person Yeah, yeah, okay What i'm saying let's let's stick to the topic because we are we are drifting the main topic has to do with muhammad prophet muhammad and not jesus So like we are drifting away whilst our second debate has to do with jesus instead So let's let's Fick the focus so that we don't lose the the the train of what we are the chain of what we are discussing What i'm trying to say here is because every is like The game of seman thinks you are trying to play is you you're playing with words In such a way that if you you quote john chapter eight, right? I can ask you give me one verse from the old testament which abraham ever made reference of jesus Can you is this a real question? Yes, it's a real question. Oh, this is easy now No, that he made he mentioned christ You can give me way No, no, stop stop stop stop stop because i i that's this is not the game that i'm playing here So notice one you accused us of going off the subject and now you're you're going way off the Yeah, yeah, yeah, wait wait every every every then he said then he said hey Let's get away from the topic of jesus and get back on muhammad. So where did abraham talk about jesus wait what? No, no wait before i did that i say if that is Stop please because it's my time Let me make a statement before you start I'll give you a really quick is there and is there any argument from muhammad for muhammad here? I don't know i'll give you a really quick response from shuaib I want to give no no no i mean for muhammad If shuaib had a last or really quick tithy point you want to make i want to give it to you I only said if that is the game you are here to play then then i followed up with the question I'm not trying to tell you answer that then you said is that a real question So my point is if you want to play that game we can go there That's what i meant if it's not by force for you to answer if you want to answer fine But that's not the game i want us to play if you want us to play let's go That's that's what i meant by that So i have my saying let's stick to the topic of troop muhammad as a true prophet instead of drifting to something else What do you want to talk about as far as muhammad being a true prophet? I actually i actually have something david i actually have something because um If we're we're moving on okay, so i actually have something so if we're talking about muhammad being a true prophet We hold on what this might be a good time to jump into q&a i'm okay if you but i just we This is actually like we're right at the cusp of Tor i don't know opening up a brand new topic If we're gonna wrap up the dialogue, but if you want i'll defer to you guys I i want us to continue this one. Yeah, what's your yeah, what are you what are you saying and then they can respond to it You got it. Okay. Thanks. Thanks. So so uh muhammad in the quran gives us a uh a falsifiable You know test basically Um, it says that if you know this book is not from Allah you'll find it in many contradictions chapter 4 verse 82 You'll find many of them in there So we have in the quran where the quran over and over and which is why i believe that these these Gentlemen are quranists these people they they only follow the quran in the quran alone because the quran Doesn't need any outside help you have verses like chapter 6 verse 114 Uh of chapter 11 verse 1 chapter 12 verse 111 That says that the quran is fully detailed and explained it's verses are explained in detail And it that is it is a detailed Explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy for those who believe So the quran makes the claim about itself that it's fully detailed Fully explained No confusion. It's clear. You don't need any outside sources at all. Okay. Oh According to the quran for who okay according to the quran For who according to the quran So so this for who like the reader Yes, for who Whoever's reading the quran. No, he doesn't see that Okay, we'll go this the quran the quran isn't complete in detail. Is that what you're saying? He has to be specific with the verse so for who is it For who it just says it in chapter 6 in chapter 6 in chapter 6 verse 14 Does it say specific with the verse does it say for the yeah in chapter 6 verse 14 Or for the believers. Yeah in chapter 6 verse 14 verse 114. Does it say for who? Yeah, I'm asking you you are making the claim I could pull it up really quick. Let's see. Okay, I don't I don't think that I don't think that 6 114 says for who specifically But yeah, it does actually but go ahead. It does. I mean if it does, you know No, no, go ahead read it. I want you to read it a lot for everybody Know that it's the truth from the book. Go ahead. All right. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Let's get here. Let's get here and see All right, let's see if it says for who Shall I seek other than a law for judge When he it is who revealed to you The scripture fully explained Okay, those unto whom we gave the scripture know that it is revealed from your lord So be not of the waivers So if you're so your guys's point is that this is specifically it's specifically clear for believers For people who are given the book and don't all right cool. I'm cool. We're going with that So if it's clear for believers, then it's fully detailed understood and explained according to believe like if you're a believer You should have no questions. It should be perfectly clear. There's no missing details Okay, so I have a question about this in chapter 17 verse 1 it talks about this servant that he um You know that he took by night and to from one mosque to the other and stuff like this, right? He's blessed. My question is who is that servant and where did he take him? The context of the chapter 17 one minute. I will take that The context of chapter 17 verse one This is where context plays a major role You read from verse one to verse seven text you clearly is talking about the children of israel and first of all That is moses Peace be upon him So he says glory be to the one who made his seven travel at night from the sacred masjid that is a separate mosque to the farthest Mosque so if you say from where and to where it took him to the farthest mosque Around which we have blessed in order to show him some of our signs. Indeed. He is the here The seer for we give moses and we give moses the book and made it a guidance for the children Of israel that do not take a representative besides me So when you take The the notion whereby god used the word to show like to show signs to show something Just as he gave for example, prophet Muhammad in Quran chapter four verse one zero five Concerning what he has shown him. So it is by the book when he showed he as he showed moses as well So that's represent as a guidance for the children of israel. So the context is clear It is about moses and it's about the children of israel Okay, where did he take him? To the farthest mosque Where is that? That's what the verse says it doesn't give a specific location because that is not the point of the context there No, no, so the Quran says that it's fully detailed and explained that is the detail and you and you say Just to hear let's have every fully flesh it out And I promise would give you a full good amount of time to respond And then we've got to go into the q&a just because we are over for this first Well, we're almost over for this first debate and we haven't even done questions yet So go ahead every and then we'll go to Muhammad and then we do have to actually jump into the q&a Yeah, got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. So you said that it's perfectly detailed and explained for the believer So that means as a believer you should be able to give me the details that the Quran is talking about It should we have the details there So when you when it says that he took him from the sacred mosque to the furthest mosque My question is where is that? Okay, so every The book is detailed for the believers So the names of the prophets of the wives are not mentioned here There's other details about the prophet's life is not mentioned here It's because it's irrelevant to the believer the actual location and the mosque that is being questioned in question here It is not relevant to your faith So it's detailed in a sense where we know what happened with moses and why he moved moses from one mosque to the other mosque In the sense that he wanted to show him his signs That is the clear the clarity and the details that a believer requires to stay on the faith These questions that you're asking are not the details that you're you're understanding what a believer needs I don't need to know the name of the mosque nor do I need to know the location Nor do I need to know what ahad is nor do I need to know where the prophet's name the prophet's wife's names because it's not Impaired on the judgment It's not part of guidance. Yeah, by the way, by the way, every notice notice that they're saying this is about moses when 99.9 percent of muslims would say it's about Muhammad and the Quran claims to be clear According to according to god, you don't follow the majority. They're believers according to their believers. David. Don't forget It's clear. It's clear to them. David that uh, that this is about Muhammad according to those believers No, no, they no they said they yeah, yeah, so it's it's clear to these these guys are saying this about moses So they're there. So yeah, yeah Just like how 99% of christians understand you're making fun of us I want to give Muhammad it because I think there was a point made against Muhammad Just like how 99% of christians 99% 99% of christians say that jesus said oh hi god. It's me again Me can I please remove this bitter cup for myself? No, that's how ridiculous you guys sound So when you're gonna come compare us to 99% of what the ridiculousness of that comes out of them Which they have no proof you sound just like them Where you are the majority and the believers are the minority So you can make fun as much as you want on the day of judgment God is gonna say show me where it says Muhammad and show me where it says that this specific mosque that 99% of muslims That went with their own assumptions. It's just like you did did James I just wanted to clarify what we're saying because that's not exactly what we weren't saying ha ha ha you guys are the minority And and and almost almost all people who believe in the Quran disagree with you That wasn't the point the point was about what's brought up earlier that the Quran claims to be clear And yet at the same time you guys are saying that the incredibly vast majority of the people who've ever read it Are wrong about basics like whether they need additional books in addition to the Quran Who that who's being identified here in surah 17? And so the point is if 99.9 of people who ever read the book come to the wrong conclusion From what the text is actually saying Is it really all that clear that was the only and just 10 seconds right just just 10 seconds, please And the the the crux of this was that you guys said it's clear to the believers So you have different sets of believers who are coming to different conclusions This is our baba doesn't make this claim your book does so this is a problem for you guys man. Is it consistent? First we'll go to it sounds like shuaib you want to go first and then we'll give Muhammad a quick chance And then we've got to go to the q&a Yeah, so based on the verse ivory you quote a chapter 6 verse 14 We are not talking about you didn't mention anything about clarity there He didn't say is the book everything clear. That's not the question after 12 verse 11 I also quoted that says everything all things are detailed chapter 12 verse 11 11 So now the sealer yeah in everything we have Okay Now when you quoted the verse first of all before I answered you quoted chapter 6 verse 11 14 before quoting the other one But you are asking for duty then I ask for who then Specifically you were avoiding that till we went to the believers point now a believer is taking guidance So when it comes to types of guidance the book is detailed we have every detail we need for our guidance So that's why I keep asking for who but if you are trying to just base that argument on saying since the Quran is detailed It has to tell me the name of the wife of the prophet the name of this place this prophet when the name of this place The prophet was born that's not the detail we are talking about here You have to understand the context just to keep it pithy. Sorry for doing this to you But just because I want to give Muhammad a quick word and then we do have to go to the q&a No, let's try to finish this point. Let me ask you already went first Okay, so yeah, so every back to like what you're saying the people who are assuming things There's a priestess of position and pre understanding that is already imbued in them before they even open the book If someone comes out of the earth and never knew any of the history or nothing and open the book and read it He's not going to attach that to a Muhammad nor to the mosque that is in Jerusalem or the temple and that's in Jerusalem So this is where when you open the book without having these imbued Understandings that people have Put into the religion that people presuppose things Then you wouldn't come to the conclusions that 90 percent of the people come come come to because they did not ponder Nor do they think nor do they give the victory back to to the Quran There's a prophecy that proves that Muhammad is a prophet of god Where the prophet said that the messenger the messenger will say that the people took this Quran for Taken as you guys did as Islamic sources. You went to all other sources except the Quran. So you prove the We all like it right really quick housekeeping. Thank folks. I'm going to read through as many superchats I can but I'm frankly we just have so many I'm not going to be able to read all of them So if your super chat doesn't get read email me at modernatobate at gmail.com and I will pay you back I'll give you a refund for it because I am sorry because we do try to do that But I also want to get these guys out of here on time tonight So we're going to read some of them though for sure by the way, james james Either uh, if there could be like at the end where there's like a minute each or 30 seconds each or something like that to uh, sort of Summarize or something like that as a conclusion. That's cool I'm open to that. Let's just quickly. I'm going to quick run through these questions And then we'll do that and then we'll give you guys your closings Followed by a quick intermission and then folks if you did not see it in the live chat If you're maybe you're listening and you're just cleaning your room or something We are going to have a second debate tonight. So that's why I'm trying to like make this really fast And that's why I pushed us into q&a even though people were like Dang this conversation is so good and I 100% agree But is jesus a muslim is coming up next that's tonight So like next is in this very live stream. You're already where you need to be to watch it So this first one coming in from do appreciate it and war stevensson I don't know exactly what they're meaning by this. You see if a 54 year old uh I think now they call it. Uh, what is it maps? Minor attracted person or hello live next door to you. Would he be alive? Are they meaning like would you allow them to live next door to you in a nice way? Is that what they're saying? Yeah, but if I if I if I had to guess I don't think either one of these guys would be would so even though even though most Sunni I mean Sunni muslims who are familiar with their sources would read that Muhammad had a Child bride if these guys are rejecting Bukhari. I don't think they uh, I don't think they believe that Yeah, when god is saying for an orphan for them not to even get their possession until they reach the age of marriage And they have to have maturity in their head to get their possession. I'm not going to make a six year old Take a responsibility of the house. Obviously, that's wrong. It's obviously that's wrong Even their own books They're even their own books the sources that they claim you can place aisha at 18 years old and above Because of the time she was playing with the dolls when a certain revelation came up But you guys as muslim Islamophobes want to talk about how a blessed man that changed and revolutionized the life of many people You want to labor him as a pedophile Even though your books that the ones that you are scared of put a lot of profits as pedophiles as well So it's a nice attack. That's a lot Isaac where where where shows shows chapter and verse chapter and verse everyone. No, no Isaac chapter and verse Is just like how they're twisting verses chapter chapter versus that easy chapter books such and such chapter I had this conversation with you in the last chapter and verse where they pulled her three years old I understand you have chapter and verse That's But if we're gonna go into like I just we've already kind of covered extra ground beyond the question I just want to go then he went into that he went into that lie. That's right. Joshua. Joshua wooden says islam Side study what christians believe major straw man also does islam not also believe Trinity as an a la muhammad and the eternal speech of Allah the Quran Also, some schools of islam say that swearing is haram I can read through each of these if you need a reminder. We'll start with that first one. They say Muhammad doesn't islam have a trinity of its own namely Allah muhammad in the eternal speech of the Allah in the Quran If god wanted to destroy jesus and his mother and everyone in the world He would and if god wanted to destroy muhammad and his companions and everybody in the world He would muhammad is not free of god nor can you control god? So he's not an attached in a trinity with god and god is free of everybody So stop putting lower in god's grace and dominance. Thank you They also asked also some schools of islam say that swearing is haram. Is this true? And that's just a school of thought it has started to do with the Quran You've got this one coming in from do appreciate it Chris L says a muslim tried to tell me the bible in thessalonians 211 claims god lies Just like in Allah lies in the Quran He then tried claiming that also the Quran does not say Allah lies, but just simply plans I'm going to read thessalonians 211 in case it's Useful. I want to ask my christian friends. Does god lie? Question. It's it says therefore god sends them a strong delusion so that they may believe what is false. That's the second thalonians Yeah, you have a you find the same thing in the old testament that when people are rebelling Matter of fact, I think you can see it in the world in the world around us today that that people can be punished with a delusion as a form of punishment for rebellion, but but but james if you're saying if you're saying that If you're saying that there's a there's short time then Uh, some of these some of these questions are going to be Relevant to the topic and others aren't like like they're asking about They're also asking about Allah being the best of planners and some people say that's the best of deceivers and so on so But uh, we're talking about whether Muhammad's a true prophet. So I don't know I mean maybe none of them, but it seems like some of the questions are going off on On other issues. Yeah, that's fair off of topic Because I know they're gonna ask us 12 times about Aisha sauce me down says I'd skip it. Yes. Yes. So stuff like those if you guys are saying you reject the sources. I would say skip those Thank you. Gotcha some of these are Sauce me down says Will you ever get our christian dichotomy correct before interpreting? off of your own understanding I don't understand what they mean by dichotomy. They're referring to like christians having a dichotomy In their theology Yeah, I don't know what that means Okay, this one coming in from samir far saying says if jesus himself. Wow. Are these about Muhammad? Let's see. I'm reading. I'm doing a word search this one from sauce me down says Do you two believe galatians one? eight and nine Since gabriel gave Muhammad this grandiose new revelation Yeah, so just so everyone knows they're referring to galatians one, which says that if anyone comes with a different gospel He is to be eternally condemned and so I can already answer for them They're not they're not going to accept the apostle paul. So they would so I'm assuming they would reject that This one from christi nari Says to Muhammad. Okay. So they say did Allah say Vote be and it is Or is everything a part of him? Which isn't? well When he's saying to something be and it becomes that is when he has judged a matter if there is a matter to be judged and he Decided on that matter. He says be and it becomes now god calls himself the reality So everything is happening within the grasp from god within god in god Yes, he is not the actual creation itself god is a much bigger entity of infinity But we all come back to this infinity where we are judged after we are resurrected from our death You got it. I'm looking for any more that are about Muhammad per se Okay One way apologetics. Thank you. He's a question to muslim guess. How do you know what century muhammad Revealed the Quran in It wasn't muhammad who Was a question again muhammad revealed the quran I I understood it. They're asking if if you don't If you don't accept the other sources, how do you even know when the Quran was revealed to muhammad and when muhammad lived because Yeah, so I think that's but yeah, the point is there they are Point of history, but that's not part of our guidance Look, people are missing the point of the objective of the Quran What the Quran is actually here to do the Quran is actually here to give people guidance to god But it's not in the point where these are external issues where if you want to take it up as as a person We are interested in that that's up to you, but it's not part of our guidance So anything external to the Quran. We are not interested. We're not going to be asked about that on the day of judgment That's this one actually relevant Stupid beta energies as what miracles or fulfilled predictions are attributed to muhammad that support his claim to prophethood Oh, there are some in the Quran, uh, for instance, uh, Quran chapter 48 verse 27 There was a prophecy about they're going to have the conquest of makkah. It happened during his time Quran chapter 8 verse 43 to 34 God showed him a dream concerning a vision where they Dominates against the disbelievers. It happened at this time Quran chapter 44 verse 9 verse 15 God used the smoke to show him a sign when he's going to annihilate some of his people It happened at this time and Quran chapter 10 verse 46 to verse 49 prophesies about messengers to come for every nation which is still happening We are having messengers not prophets Messengers for every nation is still happening people delivering the message of the Quran Quran chapter 27 verse 82 talks about a tool Which will actually be able to tell people about the verses of god. We are in that time now. Yeah, so prophecies are there a lot This one from sauce me now and says muslims muslim guests Why would you believe in a prophet who sinned over a prophet before him who didn't sin? I think i understand his question Is that cheap? I think they're talking about jesus at this point. Yeah, no, I think he said I mean, I could james you might want to read it again, but I think it's saying Why would you believe in Muhammad who is told to repent of his sins in the Quran? when jesus is is Sinless, yeah, and after basically saying why would you prefer it exactly as david said? Okay, well, no, so every prophet had a different uh favor from god So the mother of mary. She prayed to god or sorry the yeah the mother of mary She prayed to god for god to protect her seed which is mary and The seed of mary from the devil So that was the favor of mary and her son that they would not be tempted by the devil and the devil would not have control over them Uh, but that does not apply to all the prophets the prophets can make mistakes when they do as god said in That even he told moses that the messengers are not they don't have fear when they're walking with god But only if they Caused some oppression and if they correct their ways they come back into the area of no fear So so prophet muhammad did not have the same favors as jesus But the book that came down to prophet muhammad is a lot easier to follow than the gospel Which you can still find god if you follow the gospel Exactly and to top out to put top up on that because also the difference is because jesus had the holy spirit with him Constantly unlike the difference between him and muhammad. He doesn't mean muhammad never had a spirit of god But we are talking about the holy spirit. That is the favor on him From stupid beta energy says how do islamic and non islamic sources differ on muhammad's Character and actions and what does this mean for his prophet hoods authenticity? Well to be honest is very sad Some of the stuff they wrote about the prophet is just not right I Think to understand who prophet muhammad is is actually drafted in the quran. This is where you get who he is Going external sources is like eventually you taking up evidences from his enemies because according to quran chapter 6 There's 112 to 113 Every prophet had enemies who? Who formulates the decorative speech against every prophet which eventually happened to prophet muhammad? And that is the fabrication whereby they can have Narrations such as marion 6s ogre sleeping with 11 wives doing, you know a lot of things which are out of out of Exactly. So External sources will confuse the narrative of who the prophet is yeah And and you could see in the quran there's a lot of parts where god is telling the prophet say like they do this Or they say this this is the answer But you see the prophet saying other things So when god is commanding them to say things that hadith is he's saying something else contrary. Yeah Just a few more and then we'll be jumping to those closings anwar sievenson. I don't understand this They say I told you Avery i'm not made of money destroy the ebonite what is The ebonites are they reject palm even I had a worshiping Never mind that one Yeah, you don't have to read everyone james Exactly Let's see the ne hitu says All right, we'll skip that one some of these i'm not sure what they mean and I have a bad feeling about them So i'm not going to read it. We're going to just skim through this one coming in from Did I see something really bad with that last one? All right, this one from Two seconds. I'm like What's the word frazzled? I'm just trying to get my bearings here again You're going to be struggling for the next debate james I'm almost there. This one they say The nae Well, that one's last xx wlz xx says Muhammad is repeatedly accused of being a plagiarist and taking legends of old We know for a fact that the Quran is full of apocryphal legends based on historical standards Would that make him false? Oh, actually, let me just let me just comment on this. I'm not even I'm not even using it to uh to attack But I just wanted to point out some I think the so The idea is that there are stories in the Quran and we actually have a pretty good idea where these stories come from And some of them come from sources that are no No one considers authentic like, you know dual car name finding, you know Heading out west and finding the place where the sun sets or or appear to set or something like that Whatever you want to say the sleepers of the cave and so on and Most muslims will say no those things happen But I have heard from a couple of muslims isa recently and shabir ali Who believe that the Quran can quote fables to teach lessons? So it's that the Quran isn't taking them as as a factual or historical It's quoting sources and shabir ali compared it to you know Someone could draw a moral lesson from like a marvel film or something like that and make a point But yeah, I was I was just uh, I'm not I'm not I just like to know these guys perspectives because that's what the question is about looks like Correct correct me if I'm wrong David, but isn't dual car name mentioned by name in daniel? Um, you had well, I'm not saying dual car name is fictional. I'm saying that the story about him Going going west and finding the place where the sun set and then finding the place Where the sun rises and then building this giant wall that keeps out the hordes of uh Gog and may gog and so on This comes from the glorious deeds of alexander and the alexander romances. We know that no one takes these as So dual car name alexander the great is a historical Person, but these stories are legends. They were circulating in the time of muhammad and we find them in the Quran. So So for some people so for some some Muslims would take that as as a problem and say no these these are actually happen Whereas shabir ali would say It doesn't need to have happened. You can still be drawing the point You can still be drawing a point out of something even that didn't happen But does this is opinion? Yeah, he said no, no, that's why I was asking your opinions Yeah, yeah Yeah, we we have Okay, moment if you want to speak you can you can just say something no No, go ahead to me to me as some people also attach dual car name to uh, cyrus the great This one from yeah last one and then one of those closings The name hits you says this debate is over without Let me know if i'm saying these wrong sahih hadith How can you know anything about muhammad since the Quran is not a book about muhammad Moment you want to take that or should I take? You go ahead Okay, uh People love People actually don't get the concept of wider Quran is here Quran is to serve as a book of guidance to mankind for mankind Right, it is not actually here to tell you about the personal life or biography of the prophet It does of course tells you about some parts of the prophet which is relevant to our our guidance But it is not here to tell you the entirely about his birth about his biography The main concept of the Quran coming here is to guide mankind towards God And even the prophet himself was asked to to lead the people to the guidance of God to invite people towards God So it's not mainly a book which is here to be telling you about Personal life of muhammad just as they have in the hadiths fabricated hadiths concerning him You understand So this is the missing link people are not getting they think the Quran is here to actually tell us about who muhammad is What what he's not not entirely know that James can I get 10 seconds? This might be a good opportunity for those closings. We want to have a full 30 seconds 30 seconds per person or something like that. Sure. Let's do it starting with muhammad So the point of the religion is on the day of judgment God is going to ask you that he gave you a set time in the world How did you make the world a better place? The Quran is giving you a shortcut on how to live your life And the prophet has given us the tools for us to be good upstanding Uh individuals now the things that people are pertaining into sahih bukhari and all this is literally the worship of the prophet They're just thinking about the prophet all day instead of thinking about god Now to us it is very clear that the prophet muhammad was sent from god with the spirit of truth And the holy spirit is because of the book that he came with There's a lot of prophecies that came that happened and it guided us to have A life where we are constantly In thinking about god the great the merciful We want to meet at the end our thoughts is not about muhammad and the companions Our thought is not about jesus or moses or date. It's just literally god and how he's affecting our world our day to day Thank you very much. We'll kick it over to Shuai Or is all yours Yeah, so in summary the the idea of uh, we being here trying to prove that the prophet is a true prophet is based on Also perspectives because whatever we try to quote from the christian bible or the quran It's at the end of the distance on perspective and what which each individual understands towards uh, the guidance So what we are here to achieve is actually to to present the argument whereby people can actually weigh up the options And see which one is more sensible and up for the take So that that is what I have to say and thank you to the audience as well for participating. Thank you Thank you. Shuai and we'll kick it over to we'll go left to right david flor is all yours Yeah, so um, we're we're asking whether muhammad's a true prophet and the case we basically got was that uh, muhammad is in the bible not surprisingly went there because that is the position of the quran But problem is you go to the bible and over and over again You find that muhammad was a false prophet They went to first john when according to first john muhammad was an antichrist They go to the gospel of john where father and son together send the comforter This is a trinitarian passage that completely flies in the face of islam Uh, they went there. We didn't really get into we didn't get into isaia, but they they quoted isaia 42 isaia 42 is one of One of four servant songs that are all talking about the same Servants and if you look at isaia 53 talks about this servant dying for the sins of others This flies in the face of islam So it's just a problem that they go to a book that completely contradicts islam as a defense of muhammad Not not only that but but we found a lot of moments here where our friends here or one of them at least left islam Committed shirk many times because of the theological problems You have when you quote the in jeo the gospel and try to plug muhammad in there you get Theology saying that jesus is is partnered with allah who sent muhammad who comes from out of Allah just like all of us and everything comes from out of Allah So it really just that theology is unclear as but the quran says it's clear for the believers Thank you very much gentlemen folks sit around are you guys okay with a four-minute intermission because I know we've gone a little We've gone about 26 minutes over You guys will okay with a quick form and we'll start right up here at I need at least eight minutes because I do have to pray That's fine with all of us. I'm sure sure works for me We'll be back in eight minutes folks Gentlemen you're dismissed for eight minutes Folks want to say thanks so much for being with us. If you haven't yet. Hey hit that like button Thank you so much for everybody who has already hit like we're at 566 which is spectacular for a live stream So we do appreciate it for real It does it's true It helps modern day debate and that's one way in which you got to say I got to give you a couple of announcements folks First, thank you so much for your support of modern day debate. We've had record growth and last month We shattered our previous record of like 5,000 new subscribers I want to say thank you guys for your support The debaters we want to say thank you to them. The reason this channel is growing like a weed It's amazing in terms of how fast it's growing is because of the high quality debaters we have on so They're linked in the below in the link the description box below Check out their links now. What are you waiting for folks? You can find David's and Avery's and Mohammed's and Shuaib's links in the description box right now. Check them out and want to say though We have indeed as I mentioned had record growth our previous High month. I think it was like maybe 5,000 or 7,000 subscribers We had in july when we were excited about that and we are we appreciate that but we're even more excited about the fact that last month The last 28 days it's been 16 and a half thousand subscribers so That's amazing. 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It's been like five years, but I will not come on here and push my views without an opposer, you know, somebody that's going to give me pushback We're a fully neutral plan a channel our platform Our desire is that everybody would have their fair shot to make their case on a level playing field That's what we think is important whether they be muslim christian atheist We don't have videos that are going to be like, oh man, like here's why islam is false or here's why christianity is false Or here's why atheism is false. Whatever blah blah blah blah Because we're like, hey if we're gonna have somebody make that statement or that case, whatever you want to call it Well, we're gonna have somebody opposing them as well So we do want to say thank you guys for all your support. Thank you to all of our christians supporting us out there Thank you to all of our muslims supporting us out there. Thank you to all of our atheists supporting us out there It isn't a an eclectic bunch. So we want to say we do appreciate that In terms of other housekeeping stuff. Oh, I do want to let you guys know It is I think it's and I don't know about this I don't get out much you guys can let me know to ibe and david I think and I like for real. I really don't know. I think that it's case though that abd O O L Is like a slur. Is that true? No, no It depends on how it's utilized. There's multiple meanings. It's just abdu like a seventh or some people can say slave You know, it depends on in the context you use it, but Some some people are called abdulla. Some people are called abdus salam. It goes on and on so Okay, well, thanks for letting me know that because sometimes I see it in chats And where the people are like all these abdulls they called you an abdull. Should I And and that's why I wanted to be sure because we don't want we don't want slurs But it sounds like it's not a slur. So, you know, I haven't banned anybody tonight for that But I did tell somebody said, hey, you know, I don't want you to say that here because we don't want anything that like, you know We don't want you to like attack a group but We're almost let's see we've got avery. You'll be back in a second, but I want to say thank you guys Oh, I wanted to ask a quick question. Uh, so I'm assuming since lots of lots of what goes into suni prayers comes From the hadith. How would how would your I mean, you don't have to tell me, but I was just wondering like how would your prayers differ from like what uh What a suni muslim is doing? Yeah, I want to give you a chance to answer but I think even your audio is just a little bit lower than when we were Beating before but we'll have to give you a chance to answer shuaib or muhammad Yeah, it differs a lot where because we take our guidance from the Quran. So Uh, I think I will tell you like 99 of what do we do differs from what they do Right and and david even in your own gospel jesus went up and prayed There was no detail. So the sunis their problem is they're so focused on structure that they made it into a chore Paced religion where there was no more relationship with god The point of the prayer it's an extended time where you prostrate where you're staying You recite the verses of god and you think about god And that connection keeps you away from the evil actions from being arrogant and you're constantly thinking of god That's the whole purpose of the prayer and it's supposed to be for like And I I'm being a hypocrite right now But it's supposed to be for like 30 minutes 40 minutes at the start at the end of the day But uh, I have my my excuse now So their their form of prayer is just uh, follow what the guy in the mosque is telling them to do and there is no connection No, I was asking because uh, I knew when uh, I don't know if you guys are familiar with them, but hams abdul malik um He's uh, he's a Quran only muslim. I knew i'm up in uh, new york Uh from brooklyn But uh, yeah, he was saying that he interprets Salah in general as As blessing so he I don't yeah, anyway, I'll just ask him for well, it can also be from a perspective right? Because according to quran chapter 17 verse 84 It acts according to his mother's and our lord knows who is best guided in the way So of course you can have the same faith with somebody but you can defy in some minut issues Which which is normal it happens in every denomination of faith. So it's normal And actually this is one thing that we push back against this and is they say oh We people who like reject the hadith we have different interpretations of what the text says But they themselves also have different interpretations because if you look at the tabiri There's a word that's often repeated The people of interpretation is different. So if there's this magic chain, they'd like to say that it leads back to the prophet Why did the prophet say different interpretation to different people when this is not the case We'll jump into the next debate Hey, uh, hey james, you said my volume was lower. Is it okay now? Definitely better. Yeah, we'll do a really quick audio I really think every you need either turn up the gain on your mic or bring it closer to because because zoom thinks like it goes by uh How does this sound is this any better? That sounds better. That's better. I still have to have a close file. Okay And that way you're not cut off from retouch. Yeah All right, what I'm going to do is just like we were as if we were during in the pre-screen Uh, or pre-stream like uh page I'm just going to start us off as if it's like that because this is going to be a separate upload So I'll edit this out later, but here I go. Uh, of course david and Avery you'll be going first. Which of the two of you would like to go first? No, this is whether jesus was a muslim That's right So you're the affirmative in both muhammad and shuaib. You get the advantage Going first We would like to go first. I think I think moment should I think this should go first, right? To show us why he's it cannot be a muslim then we can justify means because we started We started Yeah, I I generally prefer going going first But yeah, it's it's the affirmative position that that uh that builds a case first So if you're saying jesus was a muslim then Because in the first debate, uh, we justify the means of uh, you know The prophet And then the second debate you have to justify to us why he's not a muslim then we can come and justify the means I don't see anything wrong if you start first No, I disagree Because you're in the you're in the affirmative. I think that's just standard. That's just standard I think usually the affirmative goes first. I mean like if you want to give away Like I usually think that like being the first person is actually like an advantage Yeah, we yeah, we don't we don't know we're responding to as far as arguments. No, there's no advantage or disadvantage here I don't see why you think Well, I mean, it's gonna be weird because we don't we don't uh, we don't have a full Opening statement. I would like I'd like to but that's my point because they used our opening statements as a rebuttal Yeah, they are going to use exactly because you are waiting for us to say something before you can use our ways as As an evidence so which is that's that's the point of being the affirmative if the whoever's defending the claim Which in this case is was Muhammad a prophet No, but the question was uh, what is was jesus a muslim you build your case of jesus was a muslim and we we No, no, no, you can you can you can start by showing us evidence is why he's not a muslim. It's also okay also okay like that Then we can come in and show the proofs is that I don't see anything wrong if you also start Because there there are debates where the people are yeah, but there are debates where there's an agreement where the others I can start first So I kind of out of fairness I I mean the affirmative usually goes first to where I kind of lean that way to be honest like It just makes sense to me like Yeah, if you got I mean if you guys wanted to have a different debate on I don't know I don't even know how to word it or something like that where we had the affirmative Is jesus is jesus god for example is jesus god So that would be on us we would have to go first It would be weird it would be weird if the topic were is jesus god and then you guys went But we are still talking about jesus to us. It's a prophet It doesn't mean we we we are like we detest Jesus or something of course We also love jesus as well, but not in the same context you take jesus to be But the point is we are we are here to debate out of us and it's the same entity But then you have to tell us your perspective why he cannot be a muslim I don't see why this would be a problem if you start You can just the criteria why he cannot be a muslim. It's just it's just the negative position doesn't go first Yeah, it is just kind of like the the affirmative like that's just the default So I do want to just go that way like I Okay, I just want to arrange like I'm willing to host another Set of debates where you know forehand you say but this time you want it where yeah matter of fact We can we we can go we can go ahead and agree here that we can we can pick some other topics in the future Where we're on the affirmative and you guys are on the negative we'd be totally cool with that Of course because if we take two topics and then we are still being the one to defend our claims Then I don't see where you have. Yeah, that's that's that's what I'm saying We we will we I mean I'm assuming Avery's going to be fine with this But we would uh when we will have to figure out the topics But we will agree to two topics in the future where we are the affirmative and then we would go first and you guys could you guys go second I even host you guys next Friday If you guys want to do that it doesn't have to be But all right, well, let's just have the we'll do the uh, we'll have The uh affirmative be like if for real we'll carry out the promise that we yeah, maybe yeah Maybe wait Maybe we can chat right afterwards real quickly and see if there's any topics we can all agree on I don't think they're I don't think we'd have a problem coming up with some topics Mohammed and shuai do you have a preference on who goes first between the two of you? I'm Pressing you and I'm asserting that you guys go first I would have to ask right Yeah Okay, so Okay, so I will go first. So here I'm gonna do it just like that cold open before here I go Yes, just give us just give us 30 seconds. We talk on the back channel. Sure. Okay In that 30 seconds folks do want to remind you if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button We have plenty more debates coming up and maybe you have a friend who enjoys these topics folks for real it I check it out on the I constantly check the channel stats And I see that like each week we get thousands of shares So we do appreciate that so much that really helps like it's just that authentic like hey I enjoy this debate. Hey ryan. Hey andy. Hey logan. You might enjoy this too Hey barbara, whatever your friend's name is Highly encourage you hit that share button if you know somebody that enjoys topics like this All right, shuai sounds like you're cool going first or you want to switch to Mohammed Cool. All right. All right going three two one Hey everybody today we're debating whether or not Jesus is a muslim and we are starting right now With the yes side in particular shuai. Thanks for being with us. The floor is all yours Yeah, thank you so Now the topic is uh, is jesus a muslim, right? Uh, when we go to quran for instance quran chapter 27 verse 91 Uh, prophet Muhammad himself said what umero to anakuna minan muslim in that have been commanded to be of the muslims now What comes into play is people don't understand the notion of what the word muslim actually You know means because people have romanized it into english or when somebody says this guy is a muslim They just think is a you know a concept of sunni shia and that means a person a muslim That is not the case it's actually been romanized which in arabic means to subject or submit yourself to god So somebody who submits to god is a muslim and then whoever submits to god is part of what do we call the faith called islam That is the act of submission so quran chapter 27 verse 91 Shows us how muhammad claims to submit to have been commanded to submit to god and it didn't start from him We saw in quran chapter 2 verse 131 Abraham himself when god asked him to submit and he said i submit to the lord of the words Now when you go to james chapter 4 verse 7 That's uh, the christian brothers can actually uh testify for themselves. It says you should submit yourselves to god And reject the devil right aha so that and the devil will flee from you now Submitting or subjecting yourself to god stands in the same instance of what a muslim is you submit your will To the one and only god now when you go to quran chapter 2 verse 133 Is this or where you witness is when death? Appear to jacob when he said to his sons. What will you worship after me? They said we will worship your god and the god of your fathers Abraham ishmael and isik the one god for we are submit us to him Right so submitting to god automatically makes one What we call modern day we use the word muslim But when we say muslim it doesn't mean a sectarian muslim or somebody who follows the hadith concept of islam That is not what is muslim denote and again if we go to quran chapter 3 Verse 64 This is in in in a simple nutshell. This is what we invite all the people of the book The messenger was asked to say oh people of the book Let's come to equal time between s and u that we shall not worship except Allah. That is one god Neither shall we associate anything with him to say he has partners his trinity his days is that no Nor shall we take each other as lords because he is the lord of the green Universe is sufficient for us So we don't need to take each other as lords But if they turn away then say bear witness that we are submitters which in actual sense in arabic We will say muslim moon right so which means muslims now when we Pay attention to how the word had been coined in order to To to to sound like muslim is an english word coming back We have to understand a muslim is the one who submits to one god Who'd who actually submits his will to god so he does the will of god He follows the commandments of god right so this believer or this muslim who submits to god must also submit to Submit to the west of god that is the books of god and also believe in his messengers believe in his prophets and And whatever follows but to take these criteria these five criteria first of all I'm going to deal with which is believe in one god And also the will of god The commandments of god and also believe in his messengers and his prophets Now when we take for instance quran chapter 18 verse 110 These messengers when they come they tell you you have to Worship one god Then the will of god when we take quran chapter 5 verse 110 to 111 We saw how jesus submitted his will to god alone and he does the will of god above Now the commandments of god also quran chapter 21 verse 27 clearly tells us the messengers do not precede god in word But they act on his commands so they follow only the commands of god Which shows they submit to god which means they are inferior to god messengers now as a messenger we have Somebody like jesus also who is a messenger of god Submitting to the will of god So if you go to quran chapter 61 verse 6 of the quran he actually came to the children of isra As a messenger and prophesied to them about a messenger to come after him now as a prophet quran chapter 19 verse 30 He said he is the servant of god and that god has made him a prophet and has given him a book Now when you go The concept of one god for instance if you go to the bible you go to look chapter 18 Verse 19 where jesus said unto him why calleth though me good None is good save one that is god you go to mark 12 chapter Chapter 12 verse 29 to 30 and jesus answered him the first of all commandment is here Oh is read the lord our god is one lord and so goes up to verse 30 tells you you have to devote yourself entirely To god alone none else mark chapter 12 verse 32 likewise tells you there is only one god There's none but he matthew chapter 4 verse 10 likewise look chapter 4 verse 8 And then john chapter 5 verse 37 where he says and the father who sent me he has testified of me You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form So this jesus has uh the testimony of jesus is what god has actually given him so that he can give to the people Which way i can actually see that jesus is not god neither is he anything people are claiming that he is god so That means which means he submits to a higher authority Over him now the will of god John chapter 5 verse 30 clearly tells us that jesus said i can of my own self do nothing as i hear i judge and my judgment is just Because i seek not my own will so jesus didn't come to do his own will but the will of the father which sent him right So john chapter 14 verse 10 he tells us that believers Though not that i am in the father and the father in me the worse i speak on to you I speak not of myself. So jesus was not speaking his own point of view or opinions But the father that dwell in me he does the works So he goes again john chapter 12 verse 49 and 50 He says i have not spoken of myself but the father which sent me he gave me commandment What i should say and what i should speak so anything jesus Actually have to speak to the people is based on the commandment of god So we can see the will of god and also the commandment of god And then we can see also jesus being a messenger according to john chapter 8 verse 42 and john chapter Matthew chapter 15 verse 24 I was not sent but to the lost ship of isra Then look chapter 4 verse 43 Likewise, he said he said on to them. I must preach the kingdom of god to the seat To the other cities also therefore i am sent Right and he preached in the synagogue of galilee. So prophet as a prophet He is a prophet of nazareth according to john chapter 9 verse 17 He is a prophet they said he is a prophet and matthew chapter 21 verse 11 The multitude said this is jesus the prophet of nazareth of galilee Then we have look chapter 24 verse 19 and he said on to them what things they said on to him concerning jesus of nazareth Which was a prophet mighty indeed and where before god and all the people So look chapter 4 verse 24 He jesus said very I say on to you no prophet is accepted It's in own country just as jesus was not accepted by his people So the five criterias I gave which jesus falls through as a prophet And then as a messenger and then somebody who acts on the commandment of god Just as the verses I coded and then lastly Then he says matthew chapter 5 verse 17 to 18 think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophet I'm not come to destroy but to fulfill for very I say on to you till heaven and earth pass One jot or one detail shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled So jesus was only submitting to the will of god above and that is why we claim He is a muslim as a rabbinized word but in arabic a muslim is a submitter So jesus was only submitting to the will of god and none Everything he did wasn't from his own will by the will of god. So that is the criteria moment over to you Okay, so to carry on from all my peace and blessings to everybody Carrying on from what my friend said, uh, yes muslim the etymology of the word means one who has submitted His or her will to god So they follow and do what they're the will of their lord, uh, the god of abraham Now I know a lot of people Have the understanding in the west that muslim is Conflated with what sunnis and shia is and yes, jesus was not a sunni and he was not a shia Just like how ibrahim was not a sunni or a shia Now the problem is the burden in the west is for us to define what muslim and who allah is because these are words That also came up in the debate earlier Due to the problem of roman romanizing the two perspective respective words This debate would actually not happen in the middle east among arabic speakers Because the arabic speakers will quickly agree that jesus. Yes, he's a submitter and that he did submit to god now This debate is happening in the west. He's due to the ignorance and the romanizing of these words now If you look into job 22 21 This is where I believe elliphas was addressing job the verse says Submit to god and be at peace with him in this way prosperity will come to you Now if you take a look into the standard arabic bible s.a.b. The standard arabic bible in arabic, it says So and in the quranic terms it would be So but what i'm trying to explain is that a this verse is apparent in the quran And the other thing is the word aslam which is submit which comes from the word muslim So someone who does aslam or uslim Some of whom sorry in the past did aslam. He would be called a muslim So and then you see the word lilla which uh, I think every understands this there's the l which is the definite article because it's Submit to god the alif is dropped. So technically it's aslam the allah Just like in the quran it says Lillahu alhamd la allah alhamd to god is the The the praise so you can clearly see the word muslim and the word allah in the arabic bible So these are words that already existed prior to prophet muhammad and prior to the quran now I'm going to quote the same verse That uh, my uh, my uh, colleague My friend and colleague quoted which is john 530. I can't of my own self to nothing As I hear I judge and my judgment is judge Just because I seek not my own will but the will of the father which has sent me So so it's very clear that jesus has submitted his will back to god and he's doing the will of the lord Now I personally do not don't act on my will just like how shuaibah doesn't act on his own will We are called muslims there. There are pleasures in the world that would be nice to indulge in But if we do that then we are removed from the grace the purity and the commandments of god Uh, and thus we become diluted This is the same as jesus when he was tempted by the devil in the gospel When he was fasting, but jesus held Like held into the ropes of god and he did not dilute from the path now After one submits his will to god for him to become a believer They must uphold a certain degree and a certain standard for us submitters or an arabic muslims To to be defined as a believer and this was defined in the quran In chapter eight verse two to four That says the believers are those are only those whom when god is mentioned their heart are fearful And when his verses are recited to them they increase in faith and they rely on their lord The one who establishes the litany or the prayer and one for whom what what we have provided them They disperse those are the true believers for them are degrees at their lord's This statement alone defines jesus's ministry and the way he conducted himself as an example for the children of israel On how to be a believer and a submitter to god's will so essentially A devout christian can see that the teachings of what christ thought in their muslim counterparts Which logically concludes that jesus himself Conducted and taught was what the quran also taught in a mannerism Of him I mean in mannerism and the importance of humbleness the christians recognizing that Sorry, he was on around that 12 minute mark. We're probably at about 13 and a half. That was that was that was right around 13 Are you good there mohammed? uh So yeah, essentially the the main point is that you could see a lot of what Christ thought as what a muslim is in the quran so it concludes that Jesus was teaching how to be a muslim as he was a muslim himself or he's a submiter You got it. We're gonna kick it over to david and avery for their 13 minute opening as well It's about a split so to be about six and a half each Who want to remind you folks if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up in the future With that. Thank you very much gentlemen. The floor is all yours Thank you, james and uh, I'll probably give avery a little bit more time than I'm gonna take uh, and thank you Again, mohammed and shuaib for having this debate on such an important issue of disagreement between christians and muslims Uh, this is actually very very simple according to islam a muslim is someone Who submits to Allah? But this is supposed to be the Allah of Islam the Allah of Islam Is the Allah that we read about in the quran Did jesus submit to the Allah that we read about in the quran? There are all kinds of directions. We can go with this. Uh, we can point out things like The quran denies jesus's sacrificial death and resurrection But jesus said things like for even the son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom For many so jesus is laying down his life as a ransom for others That's mark 1045 and uh, there are tons of passages on jesus saying that he's going to die on the cross and rise from the dead Interestingly, some of them are passages that shuaib was quoting where if he just keep reading He would see all kinds of things that completely contradicts, uh, islam So shuaib quotes the gospels to prove his points even though the points he's quoting Uh, even though the passages he's quoting thoroughly contradict islam So for instance, he quoted uh luke 19 If you kept reading to verses, uh, 31 to 33 he would see Jesus took the 12 aside and told them we are going up to jesus and everything that is written by the prophets About the son of man will be fulfilled. He will be delivered over to the gentiles They will mock him insult him and spit on him They will flog him and kill him on the third day. He will rise again. So I I I kind of don't know what to do when people keep quoting passages where if you just keep reading it completely It completely destroys the point they're making Uh, so there are tons of places where jesus contradicts the koran and he therefore can't be submitting to the god who revealed the koran Uh, but i'm just going to focus on one core issue that shows jesus wasn't a muslim According to the koran the worst sin anyone can commit is shirk associating a partner With a law surah 19 says that the universe is about to rip apart when someone says that god has a son Makes no sense to claim that jesus was a devout muslim prophet if he and everyone around him Were committing the worst possible sin over and over again like a beating drum It just doesn't make sense to call jesus or his followers, uh muslims jesus was baptized by john the baptist and in matthew 3 when jesus comes out of the water The spirit of god descends as a dove and a voice out of the heavens proclaims This is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased Notice the father and the holy spirit together identify jesus as the son of god jesus repeatedly identifies himself As the son of god at his trial for instance in mark 14 Uh, uh, suede was quoting mark, uh in mark 14 the high priest asks jesus at his trial Are you the christ the son of the blessed one? Are you the christ the son of the blessed one jesus answers? I am and you shall see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds Of heaven they declared that this is blasphemy and that he uh, he has to be he has to be sentenced to death because of this In luke 1 the angel gabriel calls jesus the son of god In john 1 john the baptist who was a prophet according to both christianity and islam Says about jesus i myself have seen and have testified that this is the son of god At the end of john 1 the apostle nathaniel says to jesus rabbi you are the son of god You are the king of israel in matthew 16 jesus asks his disciples Who do you say that i am peter answers you are the christ the son of the living god jesus says that this was revealed jesus replies and says that this was revealed to peter by god So according to jesus god is the one who reveals to you that jesus is the son of the living god In matthew 14 jesus walks on water during a storm After stepping into the boat the wind stops and his disciples bow down and worship him Crying out you are certainly god's son In john 11 martha calls jesus the son of god and his crucifixion some of the romans called jesus the son of god Even demons would call jesus the son of god as he was casting them out of people and they were screaming So the father identifies jesus as the son of god jesus identifies himself as the son of god The holy spirit identifies jesus as the son of god the angel gabriel identifies jesus as the son of god The prophet john the baptist identifies jesus as the son of god jesus apostles identify him as the son of god martha identifies him as the son of god the romans identify him as the son of god Demons identify him as the son of god Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, pick a book over and over again Jesus is called the Son of God and our Muslim friends go to these very books to show that Jesus was a devout Muslim. Everyone in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who could possibly identify Jesus as the Son of God identifies him as the Son of God. 600 years later Muhammad the prophet of Islam comes along and tells his followers that the worst possible sin anyone can commit is claiming to be the Son of God or calling someone the Son of God. So according to Islam, according to the Quran is Jesus a Muslim someone who submits to the Allah of the Quran. Obviously not he's committing the worst possible sin over and over and so were everyone around him. But our Muslim friends have given us their perspective so Avery what do you think about their case? I think that the case to prove that Jesus a Muslim is interesting because what we have here is we have the meaning of Muslim that's given to us is that is whoever submits their will to God, whoever submits themselves to God, whoever believes in his books and whoever you know follows his commands, believes in his command. You submit to these things, you submit to God, you are a Muslim. Well by that definition if we're going with that because I'm gonna show you how ambiguous this is, you know one of the best Muslims according to this definition that I could ever think of is Paul the Apostle. Paul being a Pharisee, knew the scriptures, believed in the scriptures, submitted to the scriptures, submitted to God so much with so much zeal that he went after those who he thought were not submitting to the will of God and committing shirk against God by claiming that Jesus is the Divine Messiah who died for our sins and rose again on the third day. So I believe that by this definition Paul is amongst the best of Muslims if we're going just by someone who submits their will to God and submits his books, his revelation and things of this nature. Not just Paul, but me. I guess I am a Muslim. I believe in God. He's a triune God, infinite and you know there's no one beside him, no one other than him and he is magnificent in everything that he is. I submit to him in his revelations, I submit to his books, his commands. I am a Muslim. David, you're a Muslim. The 1,300 people in this chat who are monotheists who submit their will to God, you're Muslims. So that's how ambiguous this is and I don't think that they would agree with this. So if we're going to be, I mean honest with what it is to be a Muslim, it's believing and submitting to the a particular concept of God that we find described in the Quran, the God that it begins not and nor is he begotten, the God who is not a father to anyone in any sense, the God who has no children, has no partners, you know what I'm saying, the God who is not a Trinity, the God who is absolutely singular in his essence, the singular person. That's the God that you have to submit to in order to be a Muslim specifically. And so now we have this case here. Well, okay, if that's really the definition, then let's see if we love if Jesus that Jesus of Nazareth, the first century Jew, the Messiah, historically lines up with that concept of God, did he submit to the God who has no sons to the God who is absolutely singular in his essence to the God who has, you know, within himself, no one is with him. No family or anything of this nature. Is that the God that Jesus believed in and submitted to? And ironically, as what was mentioned, our Muslim friends quote, the Bible, they went to the Bible to substantiate this idea that Jesus is a Muslim. And it's mind boggling because the verses that they quote, as David said, literally destroy their position. Like, for example, Mark chapter 12 was quoted verse 29, where Jesus says, you know, that there's only one God and things of this nature. But earlier in Mark 12, starting the verse one to about 10, Jesus differentiates himself from the servants who are the prophets. It goes like this. He says gives the parable of the vineyard, the vineyard owner and the vineyard owner sends his servants who are the prophets to the people who that he loaned the land to, which is Jerusalem, which is Israel, the Jews. But they kept killing their his service, they kept killing the prophets, and he kept sending them and sending them, they kept killing them and abusing them and rejecting them. But then it says here, yet he had, he still had one to send. And it says here, a beloved son. So notice that the son is distinct from the servants. Why? He said, my beloved son, finally, he sent to them saying, they will respect my son. But those tenants said to one another, this is the air. Come, let us kill him and the inheritance will be ours. And they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others. So Jesus referring to himself is the son who is distinct from the servants, the prophets, who is the heir of the father of God, the heir of all things, right? The one who will receive all things that God owns, including the prophets. So Jesus is identifying himself as the owner of the prophets, the one who inherits all things creation and all. And this is who Jesus is saying he is in Mark 12. This absolute is this in Islamic teaching. Can you be a Muslim and claim that God is your father, that Allah is your father? Can you be a Muslim and claim that you are the son of Allah, the inheritor of Allah, the one who will receive all things that Allah owns, and that you including the prophets that you own the prophets. This is this. It's a tough, it's a tough dilemma to be in. So we're going, we're showing how ambiguous this definition of Muslim was that was given to us. If we narrow it down, we know it's specifically about the Islamic God. And when we go into passages, John chapter five was quoted, for example, John five, these guys, they said it, we didn't quote these, they did. They said Jesus submits his will to the father and John chapter five. Absolutely. It's true. But guess what else he says? He says that the father shows the son all things that he does. So there's nothing that the father does without the son. Does Allah ever work ever work alone? Does he always do things with the son? Guess what else? Jesus says that whatever the father does that the son does also. Jesus says that he can do whatever Allah can do. Also in John five, we haven't even left John five yet there's so much more to get to and John five he says that all may honor the son just as they honor the father. So my question would be how do you honor Allah? Is it through worship? Is it through your through a supplication? Jesus says that you have to honor him the same way you honor Allah. Is that Islamic? I don't think so. Well time. Thank you very much. We're going to jump into the open dialogue. Thanks so much for being with us folks. Don't forget to hit that like to let the YouTube algorithm know what to suggest more of to you. That gentleman the floor is all yours. Now every just I want to put it back a little bit. You said that the term Muslim is ambiguous. Yes, it is very ambiguous, especially in the Korean. God never says God says multiple times all believers, all people of the book, all disbelievers, all associators. So he never says all Muslims, because it is an ambiguous verse, ambiguous meaning where it covers many people. You're actually correcting the definition where anyone who is submitting to a monotheistic Lord, because there is only one God. So you want to play around with the words like father and Allah as if they're not equal, even though you have your definition of what a father is. Let's go with the Lord of the skies and the earth. There's only one entity that created the skies and the earth. It created this entity. He created the human. He understands the human. He told the human do this and don't do that. That is the Lord that we submit to. Now our perspective and what he can do and what he can't do. This is where we're opening it up for debate. But this Lord that I defined is the Lord of Abraham and anyone who submits to this Lord of Abraham and despite what associations they have with or they attach to him or however they're viewing him in a certain perspective, that is changing their theology. But it doesn't change how many gods there is. There's only one. So yes, you are right. You and David, if you are submitting to the Lord of the skies and the earth created this world, you by definition is a Muslim. So you concede it. By the way, you define what Muslim is on its ambiguity. You define what truly what Muslim means. Okay. And then you went into a specific. One second. I just wanted to ask for a couple of clarifications because I do want to understand your point before you move on to another one. But so you're saying that we, in your definition of Muslims as people who submit to God, that we would be, Avery and I would be Muslims just to clarify. I'm assuming you're going to say yes. But Sunnis, Shias, Sufis, these would all be Muslims and that they are submitting to God. But you would believe they're misguided in certain ways, but they would all be Muslims, right? They're Muslims, but they're not believers. They have not entered the faith and the belief. They've submitted that there's a God, but they're going to do whatever they want. So there's people that disbelieve there is no God. That's an atheist. That's a person that did not submit this as a criminal. And there's people that understand that God exists, but they want to purposely devout the way outside of the way of God. Those are devils. But then the submitter is, there's a God, there's a day of judgment. That's where it stands. So regarding us, you would say, would you say that we are Muslims, but not believers? You're a Muslim without, you're not believers and you have concepts of Shiref. God never refers to you as mushrikun. God refers to you as people who committing disbelief by the association, but he never called you a mushrik. By me, Christians were never called mushrik. But he's saying, hey, when you're saying God is a one over third, you're committing disbelief. When you're saying that Jesus is the son of God, you're committing disbelief. But he never said you are a mushrik, because a mushrik is much bigger than that concept. So yes, everyone in the world has some concepts in their Eman. They're associating things with God and in return, their life moves away from the clear path a little bit. And that's because it's not forgiven. So you're going to eat it either here in the world or here after. Some people are just completely gone. So I think it's interesting. You're a Muslim, I'm a Muslim. We're all Muslims. So it's a Muslim party here. But are you ready? He said, I still want to examine this. I still want to, we got to dig deep in this, man. So you said, for those who say that Jesus is the son of God, that they are, we're disbelievers for saying that, but we're still Muslims. So my question is, according to the verses that you quoted, is Jesus, he's a Muslim, but he's a disbeliever? Avery, to answer you very quickly, do you submit that God is controlling this world? That doesn't answer my question. I am going to answer your question. I'm asking you simply, simply yes or no. Do you accept that God is controlling this world and there's a G of judgment? Yes or no? Sure. So can you answer my question? So now to answer your question, you have been, just to, sounds like Avery has a question for you too. No, no, he said he's about to answer the question. So there's people that messed up in the religion prior to Jesus. Jesus came to fix the religion. After Jesus, people messed up in the religion. Muhammad came to fix the religion. That's not what I asked. Ask the Muhammad. People, no, I'm telling you. So when you're claiming that Jesus said that he is the begotten son of God, that is not something that Jesus would say. I didn't, okay, so let's, let's pause here for a second. You, I'm talking about the verses you quoted to prove to us in our Bible that Jesus is a Muslim. So I'm not talking about what you think is corrupted. I'm talking the parts that you quoted as if they're not corrupted. So you're talking to, to shy, but I quoted only two verses. Five thirty and twenty two twenty one. Exactly. And you said how to, you said out of your mouth, I heard you, it's recorded in your verses. You read that Jesus submits his will to the father as he hears he judges and he submits his will to the father. So Jesus in John five thirty in John chapter five says he's the son of God and he submits to his father. I'm going to ask again. So according to the verses you quoted is Jesus a Muslim, but a disbeliever? Five thirty. Jesus has said he submitted his will. People saying that he's the begotten son of God. That is something that Jesus did not say. No, no, no, no, no, let, let, let me clarify this, Avery, because yeah, I think he's missing the point. So he's not saying what you, what you believe or what Islam teaches. Avery is asking, since, since you quoted John chapter five verse thirty and that's where Jesus says that everything that the father does, he does and that you have to honor the son the same way you honor the father. He's, Avery is asking, is Jesus in this passage? Even if you believe, even if you believe it's corrupt, but is he in this passage a Muslim, but not a believer? Because he's saying that he's a son and you have to honor him the same way. But Dave, wait, Dave, the John chapter five verse thirty doesn't say what you just said. That's not the verse that we used. So what are you, what point are you making from that? Let's do, let's, Avery, wait, wait, wait, didn't Muhammad say he brought up John five thirty? Yeah, I brought John five thirty. No, no, no, both of you did. Both of you did. But it doesn't say anything about. It doesn't say what you are saying. It doesn't say what you, David, say. Yeah, we're talking, we're talking about the rest of the passage. Let me give it, let me just give a, a breakdown of what's actually going on in that passage. David, David, I promise, I understand what you're saying, but let me answer very quickly. So we do not, we do not subscribe that the gospel is a hundred percent truth. So we're not saying we're asking about according to the passage. David, we're quoting the things that are aligning with the truth and the things that are not aligning with the truth. We are here to help you corrected with the criteria which is the plan. So that's why that's why we're saying we're not saying we know you, we, yeah, we know you believe that Jesus said other things. We're saying according to this passage, would the person who is saying these things, saying that he does whatever the father does, someone who says that he's the one who raises the dead at the resurrection, someone who says that, that you have to honor him the same way you honor the father, this, where he says that he is the final judge of all mankind, would a person who said these things in this passage be a Muslim but not a believer? Two points. One, one, that I'll bring you back to an earlier debate where we had, where Jesus can, Jesus can speak in the first person, and then the other thing is just like how you're saying there's ambiguity with how the Son is defined. Yes, you know. Define one second, the Jews define the Son in a different way than you define the Son. David was a Son of God, there's Benel Elohim, the Sons of God, there's many Sons of God in the Bible. So when you're taking it as a begotten Son, that's when you went off course, but it doesn't necessary that Jesus was saying, I am the begotten Son. I, my father had a certain relationship with my mother and here I come without a father, and that's where it's the problem. Exactly, exactly. Dude, it's very simple man, we didn't ask you all of that, we don't need the fluff, seriously. Answer the question. Yeah, by your question, some questions. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, like I can't do this. Dude, it's very simple what David asked you and what I asked you, it's super simple. According to the text. Do you take the gospel 100% or just a little bit? That's what you're saying. It's very simple, very, very simple. Is this person who's claiming to be the Son of the Father, who can do whatever the Father does and is honored the same way the Father is honored, who raises the dead and judges at the day of judgment, is that person a Muslim but not a believer, yes or no? He's not a Muslim. Thank you. Whoa, Jesus, Jesus in, so Jesus in John chapter five is not a Muslim but you quote John chapter five to show that Jesus is a Muslim. I understand the context, look, wait, wait, one moment. Don't twist the issues here. Don't twist the issues. We're not the ones twisted. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, don't you twist it. No, no, no, don't interrupt. I won't try not to. Please, gentlemen, all right, we're going to go with Shuai for about one minute, then we'll go back going to Shuai. Every, you are playing the Saman things here. Look, Matthew chapter 24 verse 36, it tells you clearly Jesus says nobody knows the day of judgment, right? Now, if you are trying to base twist issues and base it on an issue to ask Muhammad a question by trying to put him in one corner, which with a contradictory question, that is nonsensical. What I'm trying to let you know right now is if you go to John chapter 20 verse 17, Jesus says, I ascend to my father, your father and to my God, your God. But if we understand and we quote certain passages where he's mentioned the father doesn't actually denote that he's the begotten son, but you are trying to put it in a nutshell by questioning Muhammad that, oh, if Jesus claims he's the son and he is this, he is this, does that make him a Muslim or a believer? But that is, that is a nonsensical type of question to ask. Base, look, base on chapter five, John chapter five verse 30, the passage we quoted, if you have to base it on exactly the context we quoted, it says, I can't of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge. So it means he is doing the wheel of the father. This is what we quoted as a reference. Beautiful. Take it over. Five seconds. Beautiful. Okay, good. Oh, hold on. I, sorry to, I just want to keep going back and forth between teams. Will I have you go right after Avery? Avery, 60 seconds. No, I, okay. Within the 60 seconds, please. Shoaib is, is Allah a father? Yes or no? He's not a father. Thank you. So if someone is claiming that Allah is their father, then they're not a Muslim. Correct? You have to understand the perspective on how he's using the word father. It doesn't matter. Father, is it biological? No, wait, wait, wait, wait, clarify the point first. Shoaib, okay. Shoaib, it's very visual father. No, please, please, let me just ask it. Let me, is Allah the father in any sense? No. Figuratively, allegorically, any sense? No, he's not. No, no, thank you. Okay, so does it matter? I don't have a question. Shoaib, I have a question. Wait, wait, please. It's the person that is defining the man. But if it was 60 seconds, I do want to give a chance to you for you to finish. And then we'll go right over to you, Muhammad. All right, thank you. So look, so you just, both of you just said that Allah is not a father in any sense. So it doesn't matter in what sense Jesus claims to be the son, whether it's begotten, whether it's allegorical, in any sense, if you claim to be the son of Allah, you're not a Muslim. I'll let my point there because I'll let you guys, you know, you do your thing. Hey, I just cooked yourself, man. Shraiba. No, we didn't. This is how we parted yourself. Shraiba, we have good chefs. We don't cook ourselves. Brothers, Shraiba is the person that's mentioned in John and its entirety. Was that Jesus speaking? Yes or no? Was the person in the whole, in the whole thing, just like how they're profiting the Hadith, is that Muhammad? Absolutely. Is the person that's quoted completely in John, the one that they're quoting was that Jesus in his entirety? Yes or no? Shraiba, yes or no? Shraiba. Yeah, Shraiba. Is that person Jesus or no? No, he's not. Hey, we win. Wow, we got it. Of course. They know that. They know that. They are trying to please them. That's how stupid you sound, Avery. The person that is completely in the John, the true quote, that is not Jesus completely speaking. And this is what you're doing late earlier. Oh, so the person that's in Sahih Muslim, is that not the Prophet then? If I said no, oh, we won. Exactly. The person that is saying that he, the son of a God, or that he came, he is equal with the Father, that is nothing from Jesus. And we're here to tell you that if you have submitted to the Lord of the world, the skies and the earth, you are saying complete blasphemy to put someone as weak as a human, as an equal to who created you and who can destroy you, who saved Jesus from the cross. Do you understand that? Jesus couldn't save himself. Yeah, so here's, here's the conversation. Here's the, here's the points we're trying to make. So in response to our discussion of John 5.30, Shuaib pointed out, he went to John 20, where Jesus says, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. So notice, even the verse itself, you guys both agreed would not be Islamic. And yet you're quoting it to defend your point that Jesus was a Muslim. But it's even crazier if you, if you keep, if you keep reading. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. If, yes, I'll read whatever I want. In verse 22, same passage, a couple of verses later, it says, Jesus breathed on them and said, received the Holy Spirit. Oh my goodness, that ties in with the last debate. But then just a few verses after that, a week later, his disciples were in the house again and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came in and stood among them and said, peace be with you. Then he said to Thomas, put your finger here, see my hands, reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting Shuaib and Muhammad and believe. Thomas said to him, my Lord and my God. Then Jesus said to him, because you have seen me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Our point is that you keep quoting passages to show that Jesus is a Muslim. And if you simply keep reading, there's no way he's a Muslim. So you're saying, ah, but the one verse that we agree with, that's the real Jesus. But the rest of it, which completely contradicts Islam. Though that's all just made up. That's not Jesus. That's not Jesus. Right. No, this passage, after passage, after passage, you quote, and literally all you have to do is read before it or after it. And it shows that Jesus can't possibly listen according to you. How many times in the Bible have you put the prophets in a light that is not true? So Aaron said that he built a different type. Notice changing the topic. No, no, no, no. I'm not changing the topic. Building a cow. Aaron, building a cow, everyone. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. He built a cow for people to be mushrix. And then Solomon, Solomon worshiped women and he also worshiped fake deities. So it's not very hard for these authors like Paul the Apostate, Saul the Apostate, that he wants to He's a Muslim. He's a Muslim. Keep in mind. Apparently. No, no, no. Because in your own book it says that if you kill an innocent soul, like you killed the whole world, how many innocent souls did he kill? Oh, and then all of a sudden he's a messenger. That's when you get eluded. That's in the talk. The Quran gets that from the talk. That's the Talmud. That's one of the problems from the last debate. The Muhammad didn't know what he was quoting. But guys, but guys, you don't read that. Your book, your book of authority, you've taken verses You said it. You said here's the chapter. We go with it. I'm sure I Wait, wait, wait, wait. You are taking our worst out of context. Like I keep saying That's ironic. That's ironic. I give him something. Oh, ironic. We're taking a lot of context. Oh, so you are doing the same thing. Okay. So the point is we're only going to what you do to Jesus. That's all. Okay. You let me Yeah. They're giving verses and we're quoting the context. Let's hear from Okay. Let's give it full 60 seconds to show. Yeah. Yeah. Aha. So what we are doing is when we quote passages from your book, we are quoting passages and showing you if we have to use logic to understand the concept you have in your book by that logic, this is how a force in the criteria of being a Muslim is submitted to God but you are taking all the chunks you have which you know some verses in your book are interpolated. They are not from God. Neither are they from Jesus. They are people's opinions. You are trying to add up to make a point. We are not using people's opinions in your book. We are quoting passages where Jesus is making references about who God is or what he is here to do. But then you just quote verses out of context and say we are making claims from the same book. Then what is the idea of the debate? The idea of the debate to go inside your book to make sense out of a passage where we can actually have it in the context of our own books to prove to the people. That's what we are doing. So it's not as if we believe in the entirety of your book. Now Can I say something here? David? Shuei Notice how my man and Muhammad this is for you too for both of you guys notice how we never quoted a single passage or talked about a single passage that you didn't quote yourself. We're only using the context of the passage that you use. That's it. So it's No, not true. If you're trying to say sorry if you're trying to say that we're taking your words out of context, bro. Like you might as well just not say anything. How about this? Don't quote the Bible anymore. Just give up on the Bible. Just admit that according to the Bible, Jesus is not a Muslim and try to use something else to prove it because you can't. According to the Bible and the passage is you guys go to you've already admitted Allah is not a father. A Muslim can't call a father and be a Muslim. Jesus says that that he's the son of God. And so therefore he can't be a Muslim. According to the passages y'all quote. So stop quoting the Bible. Try to use something else to prove that he wasn't. I think you need to understand something. We're quoting a certain verse and you go oh well carry on with the other bullshit. Exactly. Exactly. That's the problem. We're not talking about the other nonsense. Now here's the thing. God logic, Mr. Avery. So can you please now tell me that David is the son of God? Because if you go to Psalm 27, if you go to Psalm 27, he goes, I will proclaim the Lord's decree. He said to me, David, please. You are my son. Today I have become your father. So is David the son of God? David is the son of God which proves that he's not a Muslim. Yeah. So it's not a trinity. So now watch this. Not a trinity. But hold on. He doesn't get it. He doesn't get it. He doesn't get it at all. But but the audience gets it. Let me show you. Let me show you, Muhammad, how silly, how silly your procedure is here. So you only want to stick to... Wait, please. You only want to stick to... Yes or no. Is David a son of God? Oh, relax. Oh, my goodness. Please. Relax. Stay here. We let you talk. Yeah, we let you talk, bro. I just want to... It's a simple thing. Oh, my goodness. He's gonna let him break it down. Yeah, yeah. This is very simple. Is it yes or no? Is David a son of God? Dude, dude, dude. David is a son of God. Yes. Thank you for each of these. He's not a... And we're about to clarify things for you. Yes. And they're all contradicting Islam. All of them. All of them. Go ahead. So look. So David is a son of God. No, we're not. David is a son of God, which means David is not a Muslim. That's in the Psalms that your Koran says that is from God, that he wrote himself. Chapter 21 verse 105 of the Koran. Allah says in the Koran that he's the one who wrote the Psalms for David. So Allah is the one writing that David is his son. Stakfalillah. Look. We're going with your... That's your... Why not? Why not? You are misquoted in the Koran, bro. Please. I want to give you my points. I want to get to my point. So your whole procedure is let's forget all the surrounding verses. Only stick to the verses that we mentioned to Avery and David. Okay, let's do that. You quoted John 5.30. It simply says this, ladies and gentlemen, I can do nothing on my own as I hear I judge and my judgment is just because I seek not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. Period. Mohammed, who's speaking here? This is Jesus. How do you know that? How do you know? It's the submitter. Show me the verse where it says Jesus is speaking. This is not a gospel about Jesus? What? Show me where it's about gospel about Jesus. Is this a gospel about Jesus? Avery is pointing... No, Avery is pointing... Avery is pointing out that this is a passage. This is a passage. You're going to the last verse of a passage. How do you know that that verse is even Jesus because of the passage, but the passage completely contradicts Mohammed. David, because you have your whole... You have your whole document. Some of it is from Jesus and some of it is bullshit. So we have... We have... Yes, yes. If you can't... If you can't... If you can't... It's very simple. If you're saying... If you're saying... No, if you're saying verse 21 through 29 or not from Jesus, how do you know the next one is from Jesus? Because I have a criterion which is on his desk right there. I compare it to what the Quran says and the Quran supersedes the lies. Now, if you say that David is the Son of God, so David is also the first and last. Hey, son of God. And Abraham also submitted... Yeah, and then... So Abraham also submitted... I can explain that. And that David... I don't need your explanation. If you're going... Yes, you do. You absolutely do because you have no clue what you're talking about right now. And I can clarify it for you. You can walk away more knowledgeable than when you walked into this discussion. I can break it down. Just let me break it down. I'll break it down. If I can't break it down, then you can say, Hi, you're an idiot. You are an idiot. So the thing... Well, your prophet... Your prophet's a child molesting, murdering, rapist. I didn't talk about it. I didn't talk about it. You called names. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. All right, fine. You know what? We're name-calling. Name-calling. I apologize. I apologize. I apologize. I apologize. No, that's good. That's good. All right. We're good. We're good. We're good. We're good. We're good. No, we're good. We agree. We agree, James. We've settled the issue. Okay. So here's the thing. So if you're going to define what a son is by what Jesus said what a son is and then the word son is used by David, then we have to go by the same understanding. You can't come here and give me mental gymnastics how it's different. Okay. It's true. And can you please take the back, the words back you said about my prophet because I didn't insult any of your prophets? No, no, no, no. I ain't none of that. So... Ava, it's not about you, man. No, no, let him take the west back first. No, no. I took my words back. I apologize for David for calling him an idiot. That was out of line. I asked him. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. David, can you please take your words back? I'm not asking you to apologize. Just take the words back that you said about my prophet. Yeah. So I was only reacting to name-calling. So if we're agreeing we're not doing that, yes, I take it back. All right. So please, I want to touch on this because you completely ran away from the point. So you said to forget everything in the passages. You literally called it all that other nonsense. So we're only going to stick to the passages you quote. You said that you use your Quran as a criterion. So where in your Quran does it say that John 5.30 is Jesus speaking? Based on your question, doesn't mean we should give you direct answer based on the way you are questioning. You say where in the Quran does it say John 5.30? That is nonsensical. Oh, okay. So look, you know what, Shiref? I agree with that. Do you want to know why it's nonsensical? Because the claim was nonsensical. When asked who is speaking here and he says, well, we believe Jesus is speaking here because the Quran is the criterion. Okay, show me where the Quran tells you that this is Jesus speaking. You can't do it because it's nonsensical. Okay, every, every, every help us out. Let me, let me help us out. Who is speaking there? Let me land, please. Let me land. So I'm going only with, with Muhammad's criteria of, of, of hermeneutics, of exegesis. I'm going with, with Muhammad. So he said, get rid of all the other verses, only focus on the passages that we quoted. So he quoted only John 5.30, which he said. So tell me again, who is the one speaking who says, as I do nothing on my own, as I hear I judge, who is speaking? God logic, I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying is that when I am taking a document and I'm reading the document in its entirety, whether it's theology or outside of theology, even if it's the American constitution, I go put it back to my criterion, which is the Quran. So that means if the verses that are applying with the Quran, I will substitute that and I will accept from, from it. And the things that do not align with the Quran, I will overlook them. So the verse already clarifies or the passage gives us some context that Jesus is speaking and what it's about. The things that are pertaining to what a Muslim is, the definition of a Muslim, I use that to show you that Jesus himself described what a Muslim is. And then you went to talk about how he committed shirk and so therefore he cannot be a Muslim. But that's not the point that I'm addressing, because I don't believe that he said that. I know. So I'm going to say this and then I'm going to let David take the next point because this is important. Yeah, I basically, yeah, I want to let you finish and then he can respond. But I wanted to actually explain, because this is a common point, other people in the Bible are called sons of God. So how do we reconcile that with our claim that Jesus, I just want to clarify what we view for Muhammad and Shoaib. If they want to reject it, they can reject it. No, that clearly shows how contradicted he is. Guys, guys. No, go ahead, David. Yeah, thank you. So this is important. What we just noticed is that now all of a sudden, ladies and gentlemen, we're allowed to use the context to find out who the person that's speaking. So we see from the context that Jesus is speaking. Thanks a lot. So now, according to Muhammad, we can use the context, but then use the Quran, whatever disagrees with the Quran, falsehood, what agrees with it, that's in. That's good. But according to the context, who in the world is Jesus saying that he submits his will to? The father. Who is he saying that he hears from? The father, according to the context. So even John 5.30 proves that Jesus was not a Muslim based on the context. So you shouldn't quote it since the Quran is a criterion. John 5.30 should be out. That's my only point. You just helped me with that. Yeah, but necessarily using the word father in John 5.30, as you keep saying, we have I even go to chapter John 2017 to show you where he says, my father, your father, and my God, your God. What? Keep reading. I already pointed out this is the same passage identifies Jesus as Lord and God. No, it doesn't. I think he doesn't. No, no, it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. Yeah, it does. I already quoted it. Because the Jesus you are claiming doesn't even know the day of judgment. How can he be God? You're quoting John 20. In that passage, Jesus is calling my Lord and my God. Jesus knows the day of judgment. No, no, no. You're going to a different passage. We're happy to deal with passages. But notice every time. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, yeah. I'm asking you. You're changing your, no, I'm not because you're changing the subject. If you want to, if you want to deal with it. No, if you want to deal with this topic and then go on, that's fine. No, because you interrupted. No, you keep quoting a verse when we just keep reading and then you say, don't keep reading. You just said Jesus is God. That's the definition of ripping things out of contact. No, I said no. I said the passage you quoted calls Jesus my Lord and my God. The you brought that passage up. It does. It doesn't. It doesn't. You want me to read again? You want me to read again? I'm talking about the one. I'm going to read again. All right, let's break it into. Go ahead and read. You want to break it into. No, I'm speaking. Let me break it into maybe 60 minute intervals or 60 minutes. Okay. I'll take the first one. I'll take the first one. Let me finish first. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I just wanted to. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. You make a point. Aha. So he want, he's going to make a point and then I want to address the previous point. Don't believe me, 17. Jesus said unto her, touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my father. So if we have to go with the context of this verse, check clearly the words he used. But go to my breathing and say unto them, I ascend unto my father and your father and to my God and your God. Now, if you base on this logic of this verse, it clearly shows that Jesus is not claiming to be the begotten son of God, which means they can also be the same God can be their father and their father. So it's just a figment of speech. It doesn't necessarily mean he is the son of God as you guys are claiming. But bear in mind, your book, the Gospels you are using is the Gospels according to St. Luke, St. Matthew, St. John. These are people's opinion mixed up with the words of Jesus. You keep quoting them. All right, let me go and answer that. So a few, so just, so if you kept reading in the same passage, if you keep reading in the same passage, that's where you have just verse 28, just a few verses after what you quoted, Thomas said to him, my Lord and my God, Jesus told them, because you have seen me, you have believed. He counts this as belief, calling him my Lord and my God. But I did want to address this and it might be a few more seconds, but you guys can respond. There is this massive misunderstanding about son of God. In the Bible, God is Father and people can be sons of God in different senses. I'll go ahead and clarify them for you so you understand. Human beings in general are called children of God or offspring of God in a similar sense to what you guys were talking about earlier in the previous debate where we all come from God. So human beings in general can be called children of God that's Acts chapter 17. So in that sense, we can all be you guys are sons of God. Second, spirit beings are called sons of God. This is in Job 1. Angels are called sons of God. Third, the nation of Israel is called God's Son because God produces the nation. So he's the father of the nation. Fourth, the reigning Davidic king, so King David and those who were king after him, his descendants, they were called sons of God because they were put on the throne by God and they were to rule under God's authority as God's representative. Shoaib, you quoted Matthew 5 earlier and there you have that we can be called sons of God. Here it's people who sort of reflect God's nature will be called sons of God. It's a different sense. The idea is that we have a kind of family resemblance to God when we're serving God. So you have different senses in which God is a father and you have different senses in which we are the sons of God. What we're pointing out is there is a Son who is the Son of God in a very special sense similar to what Avery was pointing out earlier with the parable of the vineyard where prophets come along but then finally the Son comes and he's the one who inherits everything and has authority over everything and then we're pointing out that in John chapter 5 which you quoted if you read Jesus isn't saying hey I'm the Son of God and just in the sense that other people are the sons of or the sons of God. He's saying that he's the Son that you can't honor the Father you can't honor the Father unless you honor the Son by treating him the same way you treat the Father. This is where Jesus claims that he is going to raise the dead at the resurrection. This is where he claims that he's the final judge. So he's claiming to be in a special sense so you can't say well Jesus says he's the Son of God there's other sons of God therefore it's all the same sense. It's not the Bible is clear on this this is not difficult. Take it over to Muhammad. So yeah when you're talking about like the definition of what a Son of God is in the Bible you can see that it's inconsistent. So there are different in your ways of interpretation what a Son of God is. Now look if you want to refer to people as the children of God in that sense where there is no direct begetting that's on your curriculum. This is what God has revealed to you. God has told us that it's better to not save these kind of things because it can lead to these inconsistencies that you're finding in your book in a point where people are saying well no he's actually the Son of God where that's the mother of God. So this is where these issues arise from people not understanding what maybe even even let's hypothetically because I don't know neither do you. I hypothetically let's say that Jesus did refer to his Lord as the Father. Maybe that was for him in the sense that he understood it but he's not calling him his begotten that. I don't believe that he said that but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for saying that but you are causing transgression when you want to human like make God as if he came into a human form that's the only thing that the Quran is telling you we're not and when you're quoting Bible verses we're quoting the verses that we understand that would attract you to what we're telling you as if the truth from God we're not debating you to break your beat your days we're debating you so that we could free God and his messengers of the lies that are being said not by you by the people of became before you which you keep constantly repeating so you guys can laugh as much as you want but on the day of judgment God is going to say 530 didn't Jesus say that he's a submitter? yes okay in the story you can't be like oh well keep reading God keep reading God no he's a submitter he submitted his will to God that's what your verses say but you're debating which God did he submit to that's not the point of the debate as there's only one God your God and my God is one God so this is what we got here he just said that it doesn't matter what God you're talking about or who you submit to that is the point of the debate because being a Muslim well I think that you and Shoaib kind of differ on here because you say that you can have a different theology you could be a Muslim but not a believer you can have different theology I don't know if Shoaib has that same thought which is why he was like what I was asking you based on that is nonsensical because it was a nonsensical statement but here's the point when you look in the Bible and you see that God as a father in many different senses this proves that it's not talking about Allah which you guys agreed is not a father in any sense so please do not lose that point so you just prove to us that the God of the Bible the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the God that Jesus says is his own father the God that revealed himself to David and Moses and all of them claims to be a father in some sense and therefore none of these prophets are talking about the same God that you're talking about so according to your definition of Muslim they're Muslims but not believers Jesus is a Muslim but not a believer but Shuaib said now this Jesus in John 5 is not a Muslim so I you know I think that you guys handed this over to us on a silver platter man not really because you're so like you can't see that every your confusion is feeding you every your confusing narrative it is based on the Jesus you presented to ask a question I'm telling you it's not a Muslim but if you are saying I said the 530 John chapter 530 is not a Muslim I used that to present my argument in the first place I'm not saying that it's not a Muslim that that's a contradictory statement here you're using that's not what I said it is based on the question you were asking Muhammad that is what I said not the verse I quoted the verse I quoted was to actually stipulate use that to stipulate my argument to just show you that this is the criteria we are using to just show you why he's a Muslim is submitted to God that's why let me say very simply anybody that says he's a son of God or he's a God he is not a submitter and he's a heritage right okay so you don't believe so Jesus so Jesus well one second one second let me finish the fuck in the passages you quote okay Jesus is Jesus is not a submitter and he's a heritage David here we go how's it a lot we just want to go ahead go ahead and go ahead debate debate over debate over you're making a strong it's over but this is go ahead go ahead Muhammad it's over but no it isn't over because the person that you are calling Jesus isn't the Jesus that I'm talking about you gave this to Jesus do you understand me I didn't give you this Jesus my mom I'm giving you just two seconds let me finish the point before you okay go ahead I'll let you finish but I'm about to expose you again go ahead so you're not exposing anything except you're like you're flying your mentality the thing that is very clear that anyone who claims that he is the son of God he is no longer submitted to the God of Abraham so it's impossible for a prophet of God to say that he is the begotten son of God so the lies that you're attributing to Jesus is not from Jesus you call Jesus the son of God Jesus did not call himself a son of God and thus he stayed a Muslim you're the one who's committing a disbelief and if you're saying that someone who's saying that God has a son is no longer a submitter to God then you guys just took yourself out of the fold of the religion and the creed of Abraham all right thank you so much so when you're celebrating on the day of judgment you're not going to celebrate very long okay thank you I'm actually going to be celebrating for eternity actually but listen there's about almost 1200 people watching now when you guys get a chance clip the part earlier in the beginning in their opening statements when they were reading out these verses and Muhammad himself said based on John 530 see Jesus submitted his will to the Father he's a Muslim you out of your own mouth said that he submits his will to the Father so guess what according to you Muhammad Jesus is not a submitter the Jesus you presented to us is not a submitter he's a heretic and he's not a Muslim the debate is over I don't know what even we're doing I'm using a communication language I'm using a language you would understand I don't think he is the Father nor do I subscribe into the Father I use your book against you but yes the debate is over because you already admitted that Jesus submitted his will to the Father the Father is Allah end of story thank you very much every Christian Arab will tell you the same thing the Father is Allah Jesus submitted his will to Allah because they speak Arabic Allah is not different they even call Jesus Allah just this is where you're every every every I'm listening to the issue I go ahead according to you is Jesus the first and last Son of God he's the first born Son of God in the sense that he is the he has preeminence over all creation and and he calls himself and he calls himself the first and the last in Revelation 1 then how come Exodus chapter 4 verse 22 claim that Israel is my first Son we just explained we I just I literally just explained it it uses different senses if I say so and so is the Father so it is no no no no no let me no no no you see let me explain if I say I am if I say I am the Father of five sons that's one thing if I say so and so is the Father of modern medicine that's a different if I say these are the founding fathers of the country I'm using Father in a different sense you guys are somehow saying that there is there's no way to use Father and Son in a different sense that is insane but how the Bible uses it in different ways and you're saying no you can't do that of course you can it's not my opinion but it's all over the Bible it's all over the Bible where did Jesus tell you this just just just really quick too on top of this so it doesn't say first Son it says first born and the term first born as David has just explained and as I explained and as we both can he go to the vest if we use together we'll we're speaking at the same time go to the vest literally that's the nation the nation he brought forth go to the vest exactly oh my show it show it respectfully Avery you're going to a different topic I said go to the vest they brought it up wow you guys brought it up where does the Bible David I'm off topic just to okay you're off topic but just because yeah over and over again they bring up a topic we respond and we're off topic we're off topic once in a while I gotta quick jump it yeah good we might actually this it's an opportunity to go to Q&A but I know you guys still have some threads you might want to draw together or different threads yeah we could we could I don't know we could go to Q&A and then and then have conclusions in the end but I mean I'm just one guy so everyone gets a vote here everybody else are there any like thoughts that you still feel like hey I want to flesh this out a bit yeah we've done SS we've done SS of the time so let's let's just go speak up skip up yeah so we found out where the bible is defining the different sons for us to understand or is it David's understanding that David's understanding the church fathers or is it the Jews understanding no no no no it it explains it what about his understanding when it when it okay I never mind I want to answer this one coming in from we're going to jump in I want to say thanks for your questions this one coming in from stupid beta energy says how do historical and archaeological sources about Jesus from his era align with the Islamic view of them as a Muslim so she's asking for historical and archaeological sources that suggest that Jesus is a Muslim that doesn't go with historical reference submission is about between you and God so it's not like an historic thing that people can just use history historical things to just tell you this is what shows that he said he said it's a Muslim it's about what the scriptures say concerning the faith that is what you denote what a prophet or a messenger of God represents the base based on that we are denoting that this entity is a Muslim but it's not based on other historical evidences no yeah I would I would say that by the by the time Jesus rises from the dead there are two categories of people there are people who are rejecting him they're doomed according to Islam because they're rejecting a prophet and there are people who are bowing down and worshiping him as Lord they're doomed so the the takeaway message for his followers as we read in the scriptures is that he's the divine Son of God who died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead if that wasn't what he preached then he is the worst communicator in all of history and he was a miserable failure according to Islam you got it this one coming in from Joshua wooden says how many prophecies in the Quran how many prophecies in the Bible Torah and Gospel the Quran affirms the Torah and the Gospel yes they rear told to believe that they are from God but as Shraib as as believing in something doesn't necessary that you have to follow it there are prophecies that are in the Bible that we've seen come to life there's prophecies in the Quran that we've seen come to life you got this and also and also the understanding of what the actual Torah and the Gospel are is not according to the saints that we see of course most of this thing things are interpolated not the entirely what is referenced in the Quran to be the authentic source coming from God according to Quran chapter three verse three to verse four the Torah and the Gospel referenced there the genuity of it now doesn't exist in the books the acclaiming they have and yet a law says no one can change his words this one Anwar Stevenson thanks so much I don't know if this is meant to this is a just came in they said it didn't Jesus call a can of night lady a dog is this in something earlier in reference to like this no it's got nothing to do with anything we're talking about okay it's yeah and we we also like me as a person who believes in Jesus I should denounce those words I don't think he called anybody a dog this one from Michael Darwin says Christian means Christ follower Muhammad believed Jesus was a prophet so in a sense Muhammad was a Christian too isn't this the same argument never lot at all of course I could even I could even I could even don't you have to say don't you have to say that for you to be a Christian you must believe that Jesus died on the cross so for him not believing that Jesus died on the cross it's no longer Christian as you guys do you guys are laughing you're making our exact point right so you take actually you take you take Christian if you just mean follower of Jesus you guys admit that you guys are the ones who said that Jesus is that Jesus played a role in sending Muhammad so you could say that he's a Christian notice as soon as that was brought up you start saying no there are all these other requirements for being a Christian that's what we're saying about a Muslim he can't just say where's the etymology and leave out all the requirements for actually being a Muslim here's the thing so Muhammad is not a Christian and Jesus himself was not a Christian Muhammad was a Christian and all the sources were corrupted I'll just go to all the verses in the Qur'an that fit with it fine that fit with Christianity that's what we're gonna do that all the and I'll say all the rest were corrupted Dave Dave do that this is not a Christian can you do that oh sure sure the Qur'an says that Jesus is the word of Allah but we know what that means according to John 1 1 which you guys keep quoting the book of John that means that he is God so Jesus is God ball game Muhammad was a devout was a devout Christian and his and the Qur'an is corrupted by later Muslims so this is what we have so this is what we have David we have we have Muhammad who was a Christian but not a believer you know yeah he's a Christian but not a believer he's a Christian but not a believer all right let's go and and he followed Jesus that is also not a Christian but he followed Jesus who sent him according to you guys guys so does Jesus know the day of judgment well I mean according to the Qur'an according to the Qur'an he's God according to your book according to so prove it then prove it Dave Dave you said he knows I just said it so it's according to the Qur'an he's God and no give me according to the Bible give me a word of Allah he's a word of Allah give me a verse where he knows the day of judgment he's a word of Allah John chapter 16 John chapter 16 verse 30 he just conceded John chapter 16 verse 30 that his Bible is incorrect but he just quoted the Qur'an and he said that Jesus would know the hour but his Bible says that no we're showing like he doesn't know when the hour we're showing because Muhammad is a Christian Avery is trying and it's got that Mike issue go ahead Avery no yeah yeah yeah it's just you know according to their theology according to the Qur'an Jesus is the divine word of God so he knows all things according to John chapter 16 verses 31 and down Jesus says that he knows all things so of course he knows the hour so let's move on to the next question you said according to the Qur'an he says is the divine word of God we just really we've got so many questions I want to rush they just they just said appreciate it Zayn says Muhammad just admitted the term Muslim is ambiguous in the Qur'an oops yep no it's not oops it's very clear that in the Qur'an a Muslim can be from the people of the book it can be from other monotheistic religions and it can be from the followers of Muhammad it was let me chime in it was based on Avery's claim Muhammad admitted and Avery's claim not claiming that the Qur'an is ambiguous is what Avery said that's why Muhammad approved that and said yes according to you it's ambiguous but here's what we have guys here's what we have guys our opponents admitted that the Qur'an is the word of God so they have now become Muslim no no only the parts only the no only the parts we agree with that were stolen from Christian sources because Muhammad was a devout Christian so you agree the Qur'an is from the God so you agree those parts are from God the parts the parts that Muhammad copied the parts that Muhammad copied from Jews and Christians but late yeah but no no no that's the real that's the real word of God and then his followers corrupted it Avery Avery chance Avery I think you had something to say no yeah that was a flat out lie the saying that he did not say that yes the the the term Muslim in the Qur'an is ambiguous no he he said it in the Qur'an he didn't say based off what I said he said based off the Qur'an I was right that the term that the term Muslim is ambiguous so please do not misrepresent me or your partner this is coming there is a replay there is a replay we watch Al-Mah and Mah and says Jesus was a Muslim means he would have condoned your prophet Muhammad's actions Muhammad who let's see this isn't per se about Jesus this I just want to keep it more on test Trinity Matrix thank you your super stickers appreciate your support nobody's been more excited about this debate than Trinity Matrix also DJ Roll if I'm saying it right says if you pick and choose what to believe about Jesus how do you know anything about him what about his language where he preached or where he was born you know normally people are just interested in the things which are not part of what we call guidance like people are so interested in for instance the Greek Bible the Bible they have the New Testament is mainly based on Greek right now of course Jesus himself wasn't a Greek but the point is people will now try to base emphasis so much emphasis trying to make points which is irrelevant that the idea is what actually does Jesus have to offer that is what people should pay attention to not not necessarily what he did what he ate what he did is irrelevant do you got it this one coming in from do appreciate it hello outsider says of course Yahweh is the biological father virgin birth the quote-unquote seed of the woman wasn't literally Mary's seed David I don't think you agree that Jesus is I mean the God is the biological no I don't yeah we would we would we would agree on that what whatever we're talking about with Son of God it is not in a biological sense so I think we'd be on the same page there some of your far saints says David all you've done quoting other verses is to refute John 5 30 is proof in all caps that your book is full of contradictions proof that it was nullified thank you no uh so yeah this is actually a perfect opportunity to break it down so a Muslim will go to verse 30 by myself I can do nothing and say ha ha that lines up with Islam they won't back up to see what Jesus is actually responding to you can go back to verse 17 where the entire conversation the entire point Jesus is making is there's a debate among the rabbis whether God works on the Sabbath because Allah I mean Allah Yahweh God whatever you want to say upholds and sustains the universe so is that is that work and so the rabbis said yes God Yahweh Allah whatever you want to say actually works on the Sabbath so the rule applies to human beings then Jesus in verse 17 says the father is working and I work too and they flip out and say he's claiming to be another God he's claiming to be another God he's claiming to be an additional God what are they saying they're accusing Jesus of polytheism Jesus goes through this entire passage is him saying I'm distinct with the father but as I separate as if I'm a separate God I'm not I can't do anything by myself everything I do I am one with the father so he breaks down that he's the final judge he breaks down that God the father shows him all things that he does and that he does the same things likewise he breaks down that he's the final judge over all humanity he says that you can't honor the father without under honoring the son in the exact same way the entire point of the passage is that he is divine but not a separate deity and so when he says I can do nothing of myself the if you read the entire passage the entire point is that he's not separate he's one with the father but shares his nature and attributes the Muslim goes to just the last little part ignores everything that comes before it and says see this is Islam and it flies in the face of Islam yes he doesn't know the deity of judgment no changing this topic but here's the thing it's not even changing the topics you what you said at the start is actually something that is what we're taught about he when Jesus said that the father works on a Saturday he's telling the Jews that he did not rest on the Sabbath that God does not need rest he did not sit and rest on that he got tired so if God doesn't rest and he keeps working throughout the whole week me as a believer I'm going to follow the Lord the example of my Lord and work on a Saturday so this is why the Sabbath is not endured on you or on Muslims it's the people that differed about Abraham and said that God rested on a Sunday so it's not necessarily that he is attaching himself to to God but rather taking God as an example I seen God bring the water down and break the trees up I took a bucket and put water on a seed and the tree came up so I learned from my God uh you want me to respond you want me to respond to that James or yes this is a whole different topic you want me to respond to that James if you want really quick yeah yeah so uh when it talks about God resting from the day that means he he does the work of creating the universe he does the work of creating the universe and stops but so he rested from his work of creating the universe then can then then you have the work of upholding and sustaining the universe he gives to man the Sabbath and Jesus says I'm not I'm not under that because since the father is working I work too he's putting himself in the same category with God and they flip out understandably what are you talking about you're saying hey we all have to follow the Sabbath you don't because you're like the father they lost their mind if this if this was Jesus if this was Jesus claiming claiming to be a devout Muslim he is the absolute worst communicator in history with the possible exceptions of uh of Allah and Muhammad who somehow never mean what they say so because you don't uphold the Sabbath Joshua I hate to do that we just got so many Joshua Wooden says Arabic is the sister language derived from Hebrew and Aramaic came 600 years before Arabic was even made this one from one way apologetic says question for Muslims Philippians 2 verse 9 through 11 state every knee will bow every tongue will confess to Jesus will you bow and confess to Jesus the Muslim in which sense of like because there's no clarity the question in which sense bow bow and confess to Jesus in which sense that you've already said that there can't be different senses of different words so I mean of the same when when did we say that when I pointed out the different uses of the word father and son in the bible and you said no it can only mean one thing no no no we didn't say it means one thing we just said that is according to your opinion you are trying to explain that's what we said is that we did never say it only means one thing no this one from do appreciate it save souls says if Jesus is Muslim wouldn't that make the Quran verse that says on this day I perfected your religion a contradiction no it's all based on the context because in it in the Quran Quran text we're stating to 14 if you read in the Quran it tells you all the prophets were submitters to God they were practicing the same faith the same Dean so it is not as if when Muhammad when Muhammad was told this day I've perfected the religion it is based on Muhammad and his people at a time because he received Islam in the gradual process it wasn't as if he had it in complete form directly where he can just practice Islam it was based on inspiration and revelation so it was based on context and the timeline of his people he stole that it doesn't mean Islam wasn't completing even in the time of Abraham or Moses or Jesus now it was interesting that when a verse is brought up you went to the context which apparently is the method with the Quran but we can't do it with the bible yeah but that's the issue the Quran came to correct the bible so we don't do we don't doubt what the Quran is saying but we're doubting some of the stuff what the bible is saying not a single verse of the Quran that says that and we don't we don't get confused by the verses of the Quran like you do with the bible you don't 99.9% of Muslims disagree with your interpretation of the Quran you don't get confused I don't represent them okay so all eight of you who agree you're united in your interpretation the whole starting the whole starting five that agree you know the whole starting no problem no problem about that we are not here to represent the majority right you are literally representing what the scholars wrote about what Jesus said we are going exactly with what Muhammad said and then you're gonna make fun of it you're gonna make fun of it I hate to do it light towel says Muslim guests in john 2017 why did Jesus tell Mary quote don't cling to me for I have not yet ascended to the father this is a little advance but reads Luke 2439 who said this who's this directed towards to the Muslim guest to okay and I'm looking at 2439 so 2439 it's talking about the ascension but go you go well what was the question again okay look yeah I think I think I understood I'm not positive James so you can correct me if I'm wrong they're asking about when Jesus said he was going to ascend to the father and then you compare it and it's actually him ascending in Luke 24 oh yeah yeah we were drawing it was just drawing a point from the statement by saying he said my father your father my god your god so it was based on the statement we used there is what we use for the argument it wasn't like I'm saying I believe in that statement that this is what he actually said it is based on the argument for the sake of argument I use as a reference point that's all you guys agree that Jesus that's crazy his father is your father right like he equated them to everybody yes god is all of our fathers you too even if you don't know it just Jesus is the son in a very different sense which means he's not a muscle correct and and neither are we yeah he's on the father too so you guys believe Jesus is a man right yeah that that that's that's part of the doctrine of the incarnation yes and prophesied in the old testament so he was circumcised okay good this one coming in from Danny Davis says question Jesus taught his followers to pray beginning with quote our father was he a Muslim at that moment also did Shuaib carry quote I don't understand what that means I didn't hear the last thing did he carry what carry a coat carry a coat I don't know what that means but yeah the you can answer yeah there's the first part mentions isn't Shuaib a carried I carried what like a coat like a jacket a jacket did he carry a coat I don't understand what that means I don't know if it was like I'm thinking of like yeah he could just answer the first part we don't understand I don't know what that means and I'm a shake I don't know what that means anyways can you kindly repeat the the first part of the criticism Jesus taught his followers to pray beginning with quote our father was he a Muslim at that moment are the our okay so the person is based on that question based on the bible on that statement saying our father then we have to now ask David to explain to us what is meant by the father is it biological is it you know non-literal then we can answer the question so Dave help up but but you guys you guys agree that a law is not the father in any sense right based on the Quran so no matter so no the point is no matter what Jesus is talking about the question that is said listen the questioner doesn't say I should give any reference from the Quran now to answer from the Quran it is an open ended question so it means you have to help our first before we can answer if it's yes or no so help me out is it a literal father biological whatever non-literal what type of father is it again all kinds of different senses if you mean by if you if you're taking biological as the standard then no it would not be literal in that sense but in that in in that verse Jesus has asked how should we pray and he says here's how you should pray you should pray our father in heaven so no that would not be a biological father so in that understanding if that father is not biological and it's not a blasphemous concept of father then I agree there's no problem with that there's no there no any concept any statement of Allah being the father is blasphemous according to you guys earlier according to the Quran you cannot come to Allah except no no wait wait wait wait let me please let me finish because I've been quiet according to the Quran you cannot come to Allah except as a slave you can't come to him as a father in any sense you guys agreed to this earlier so please stop asking in what sense is he the son or no wait wait if you already negated any sense so it's over no we negated with what do you mean any sense we just said Quran doesn't make it clean that's what we told you the Quran doesn't give us the chance to say father that is what we said but we didn't say the Quran negates something does it negates what it does it literally negates it says hey I don't think you don't have children of God okay look it says they say that Allah has a son far be it from him it doesn't be fit his majesty the earth and the universe quake and they you know they shudder at such an utterance you none can come to Allah in the heavens or the earth can't come to the most beneficent except as a slave it's a negation it's a full negation okay every according to you does God has a becutting son yes oh good enough that's what that's what what's the difference between what's the difference between a begotten son and a biological son so the begotten son of Jesus he's the begotten son in the sense that he is the unique son of God monognes is the word so he's the unique son of God in that he shares the same essence as the father that's what begotten or monognes means when it comes to Jesus but that is contradiction when it comes to biological when it comes to biological and humans amongst humans it means that I had you know I done my thing with my wife and we bore a son yeah that's my biological child but that's but hold on hold on now you're defining words you define begotten exactly shame on you for defining words no no no but that's what I'm saying you define the word that's what you do man that's how you communicate every you just said he says it's a man you just you just literally said what begotten means Shuei do you mean really not no definition that doesn't attach to the word that's the point so what's the difference between begotten and biological when they're literally like synonyms they work with each other father and son are not are not biological open up the dictionary apart from begotten means or is English not part of Christianity we're using we're using biblical you're using your own Sembantik Sembantik Sembantik yeah Sembantik yeah Mohammed the Bible uses the term for begotten although some point out that it can be translated as unique what we're pointing out that is that no one interpreted that as biological so he can't mean you're saying oh this can only mean biological we're saying no one no one thought it meant biological see you're you're you're look look no no you're you're looking at this and saying hey you know a father begets a son therefore if we say that Jesus is the begotten from the father we must be saying biological because we're like copying human procreation no we're the you and I are created in the image of God we're the copy of an eternal relationship within the divine nature we're the copy you're a source that says this in English language that begotten doesn't mean reproduction not when we're talking about what the bible breaks down man this isn't but we're using English language buddy I hate to do this but you have to go to the next one Christina Marie says question for Shuaib do you agree with Mohammed that a disbeliever can be a Muslim or do you feel that reduces being a Muslim to nothing how do you submit to a God you don't believe in a disbeliever being a Muslim I think that's not what Mohammed said I think that this question has been twisted no it's a twisted form a disbeliever the moment the person is classified as a disbeliever that's not a person who is a Muslim anymore you understand so that's exactly no no no in other way around there's a misunderstanding here so the point is no every stop interrupting so the point is the point is a disbeliever the moment the person is classified as a disbeliever that is out of coverage area of being a submitter to God because he rejects God entirely that's what makes him a disbeliever he disbelieves in God you understand so the based on the question the person is asking if that is the case no the person cannot be classified as a Muslim all right thank you so thank you so much it's about me it's about me let me also answer it's for us to respond it's for us to respond my host no the question was directed to me yes and we can and I can respond as the as the opposite side so okay no responding to your comment again this is the second time that you contradicted Muhammad and misrepresented his words he literally said and he repeated this please don't let me let's let him just finish really quick and we'll give you a chance Muhammad we'll give you maybe maybe about another 20 seconds if you can yeah definitely so he definitely said and he repeated it we and we repeated it and and laughed at it because it was so funny that you're you can be a Muslim but a disbeliever because your theology doesn't match with Islam but you submit you're a believer a Muslim so thank you Shoaib for exposing Muhammad and showing that his reasoning is faulty you I said go ahead and I will repeat it that people have our submitters they're Muslims that are committing acts of disbelief doesn't make them disbelievers so for example God told us okay drinking is bad don't drink it's forbidden for you to eat pork make it even easier it's forbidden for you to eat pork I can still submit to God try to work with God and be submissive to God but then if I eat pork purposely I committed disbelief at that point that I don't believe in God's verses but it does not necessitate that now I am no longer a submitter it's I'm committing disbelief if you keep constantly committing disbelief and then you completely leave the book of God now you're a disbeliever things are not binary Avery there's a scale the more you commit the more you're gonna eat that's how it works so you're taking me out of context all right I again as you do with your Bible all right good so my appeal to the audience make sure you guys clip it go back to the part where you repeated this go to the part where we laughed and then come right here because this is gonna be a good one there's a ring of realm who appreciate it Allianz says Isaiah 9 6 says Jesus is named everlasting father in all caps is Jesus his own father or is Jesus a father in another sense yeah good good point because notice here again we see the use of father over and over again in very different senses right there you have a son it says a child for unto us a child is born unto us a son is given so he's a child that's referring to his human nature the son is referring to his divine nature and he shall be called wonderful counselor mighty god everlasting father prince of peace so does that make him God the father no the same passage refers to him as the son but as far as being the creator you can go back to John 1 where everything is created through Jesus then yes he's the father of creation in that sense like all Yahweh is the father and that includes father son and holy spirit so father son holy spirit in terms of being creator creating us Yahweh is the father in terms of relationship within the trinity yeah you've got father son and holy spirit yeah so just so just so just to be just to be clear with this so this does not mean that Jesus is the person of the father yeah it shows that it's talking about his attribute of being the source of eternal life and the source of creation okay so he's not the person the father but he is the source of eternal life another rendition of this in the Hebrew is father of eternity so yeah a good breakdown hope that's clear for you guys you got it we actually don't have too many more left so if you can bear with me is thank you very much for your super jack question J box 12 says question from Mohammed and Shuaib where in the Quran do you find the criteria by which you are to judge interpret scripture they're saying like how does the Quran inform you on how you should go about interpreting scripture when you take the kid chapter three verse seven of the Quran which is an essential pattern understanding how the verses of the Quran work in terms of finding interpretation he says he God is the one who has revealed the book to you of which are precise there there they are the source of the book like they made up main source of the book while other signs are similar as for those in whose has his deviation they will then follow what is similar there of seeking discord and seeking its interpretation but they do not know its interpretation except God and there's a comma in the English as well as those deeply rooted in knowledge right so this do those deeply rooted in knowledge they will now say we believe in it all is from our Lord but only those of intelligence will remember no so it tells us clearly the part of the people who actually take the interpretations because of their deviance was the those deeply rooted in knowledge which clearly tells us that you have to actually critically study the scriptures and the scripture to know what it actually says before you take it up to follow as he says in Quran chapter 17 verse 36 that do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge so by this you have to let the Quran do the talking by actually adhering to the clarifications God gives instead of adhering to what the opinion of people that is how to understand how to take up interpretations from the Quran this one from Dredz says the passage from Muhammad keeps quoting from is when Allah is speaking to the Bedouin the Bedouin were believers cause Allah said they had no faith no I think he's quoting the verse where God says don't say you've believed say you've submitted and when the faith enters your heart and then at that point you're a believer because you have to first submit to God then you have to understand what it means to trust God cause the word iman in Arabic comes from the new word of emin which is security and safety so after you submit to the Lord you have to find security and safety in him that he is handling everything he's the one who's taking care of everything whatever befalls you is by his permission whatever good comes to you is from him whatever things that are mishap is from your own doing at that way you have submitted that it's all in God's hand you may peace and then now when you have the faith in your heart you're a believer you got it this one coming in from dredd says it makes no sense that those who'd be identifying with the quote unquote true faith would use the same word as those prescribed as faithless shalom and peace of Christ to my brothers fighting for Yahweh say it makes no sense that those who'd be identifying with the true faith would use the same word as those prescribed as faithless is that I don't know what that's talking is that talking about using the word Muslim and applying it to like people who like follow the crowd and people guessing that's what I'm guessing again God refers to the people who are completely in belief and following the Qur'an as believers and submitters is something of a different degree and maybe try to correct me yeah there's there's a different level to that there's a submission level and then there's a believer level that the believer level is actually those who actually practice the core of the faith a submission level is just you actually acknowledge and submit to the will of one god but you might not necessarily be a practitioner of the faith even though you submit to God right so then we have believers who actually practice the faith in its entirety by doing what they are commanded so Qur'an chapter 2 verse 8 among the people are those who say we believe in God on the last day but they are not actually believers because they don't do the works of that just as my brothers here God logic and David Wood can testify from James chapter 2 verse 20 and I think verse 26 faith without works is dead if you have faith and you don't do the works of the faith your faith is useless so the level of believers submission is at a different levels this one going in from to make this world a better place this one from lightel says my question earlier was messed up they said Jesus said in John 2017 don't cling to me after his resurrection they say Muslims why did Christ say in Luke 2439 quote look at my hands and my feet it is I myself touch me and see a ghost that does not have flesh and bones as you see I have this is after the resurrection obviously who is it directed to I think I think it's asking so in the in the gospel of John and again I'm not sure about this I think it's I think the question is asking in the gospel of John when he says he's going to ascend to his father this is after his death and resurrection and then the questioner ties it into Luke where he's saying look at my hands and my feet showing that he was crucified and I'm guessing you guys since you don't believe in the crucifixion you're just going to think that these parts were fabricated or something of course we believe these are the concepts Quran came to correct so we don't believe in that concept no lamb lam m-i-m mean exactly when you take the alphabet of the Quran they are signs like symbols of the Quran for instance if you take Quran chapter 27 verse 1 it gives you the similar example by saying it mentioned and then tells you these are signs of the Quran and the clear book so these are signs symbols using the Quran to denote because unlike other books or man-made books Quran is unique on its own having these initials just to denote the symbols of the Quran and there's no special meaning to say oh it means this or that no two more Joshua Pinkham and folks please no more questions no we can't read anymore you got these last two Joshua Pinkham says Jesus revealed himself to Nicodemus John 3 said no one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven the son of man could someone read Proverbs 30 verse 4 I think that's where it says what is God's name what is God's son's name I might be wrong about that but let me check they say Yahweh is God Jesus is Yahweh let me look Proverbs 30 David do you agree that Jesus is Yahweh? I don't think you would associate Jesus to Yahweh would you? or Avery? sorry oh Jesus is Yahweh yeah I was so wrong it says Proverbs 30 verse 4 says who has ascended to heaven and come down who has gathered the wind in his fists and oh as you know it's verse 5 it says what is his name what is his son's name yeah you're in the right ballpark there James so you associate Yahweh to both the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit yes the Christian view is that is that Yahweh is an eternal is eternally triune he exists from all eternity so you can reject that but that is that that's the Christian view so Yahweh is all three personas in one probably persons in one essence oh okay guys so who is the actual Savior Jesus or the the the Father according to your understanding is it the Father the Father the Son and the Spirit are all the Savior but Isaiah 43 11 says I and even I am the Lord that's right and besides me there is no Savior I say because because Yahweh is one God that consists of three distinct persons so but we don't we don't get that understanding from the Old Testament you definitely do you definitely get that from the Old Testament give me give me give me a verse this is another debate but if you want to have this discussion if you want to have this discussion happy to I just said a verse I didn't say discussion of this yeah but you're starting a discussion that we love is question on we're agreeing to debate we're agreeing to have a debate on this yep this one from Rocco says if Jesus Christ the Son is also the Father did Christ the Son always exist as the Father or did the Father create a new essence of itself that is Christ Jesus he is the Father but also isn't what yeah so so this is a this is another Quran only Muslim and so his question already you know the first part of his question is Jesus the Father the answers no so that councils out the rest of that time that that question you wasted your money bro this is a you said you said is part of the Trinity he's a part of the God the God is that what you said earlier to me say God had so so is Jesus God or not you don't know Jesus you don't know Jesus is God and in Christianity I'm asking you yes father's father's father's father's father you're gonna you're gonna repeat just you're gonna you're gonna repeat yourself six times I'm asking you yeah yeah go go back and watch it because we kind of we kind of went through this yeah I'm asking you for clarity I just it's just a picture right away he's not within within within the divine nature you have Father Son and Holy Spirit Jesus is the Son that that's that's what he is in the Trinity when we're talking about creating the universe Father in that sense as as you guys were talking about that that everything comes from Allah we say Father in that sense yes Jesus is Father of eternity all things are created through Jesus so yeah David I love this your opinion because it's not from coming from Jesus or Paul or anybody read Philippians 2 is brought up earlier read just read just read John chapter 1 you guys quoted the Gospel of John a bunch just read John chapter 1 read Genesis because Jesus Jesus and the Father as one they're not equal and you can start you can start at Genesis chapter 1 exactly David can I can I just first if I replace the the name of Father in the Bible and put Jesus just would the context still be okay and it would make sense yes or no okay if you're if you're if you're referring to God the Father then no you couldn't you couldn't replace that with with Jesus so they're not cool they're not the same person different persons you're gonna you're gonna keep repeating yourself David I promise you just gonna keep guys talking about difference personal I'm talking about are we done are we done because is that we are done I do have to I do have to say folks sorry I gave you a warning that we can't read any more questions feel free to email me at moderate a debate closer remarks and and and feel feel free to keep kicking in the super chats James deserves it yep good stuff James 30 second closing remarks while you get those protect if you guys want 30 seconds I'm open to it you guys want okay we let's see we started well we'll do the same order we started with so given that Muhammad and Shoaib Shoaib do you want to get us started and then we'll move from right on the screen to left namely Shoaib Muhammad then Avery then David yeah I would like to say to the view that viewers thank you also for being present and this is you can see the what we presented for and let for those who have the intelligence and the logic to actually decipher and see for themselves which one is more sensible and which one is non-sensical and what they have to pick up and follow as guidance we are here to present the the evidence is we have we are not saying we know more than them or don't they know more than us but we have to present for what the scriptures say so people can take up what they can benefit and you can see what happened and how how the game of semantics were played and so on but I can say kudos to my brothers here David Wood and GodLogic and also you're yourself James Kahn's thank you for hosting us and hopefully we get to meet again thank you thank you go ahead Muhammad well one thing is the the debate topic was definitely interesting I think there is a verse in the Quran and says that how people are witnessing upon themselves a disbelief like the common committing disbelief and our opponents unfortunately when they could prove that Jesus was not a submitter to the father that was something that was exciting for them but this is not something that's going to be helpful for them on a day of judgment the whole purpose of the religion from Christians Jewish and the Muslim side for us to make this world a better place for everybody for all of the humanity yes we are discussing things on how that's achieved and that's achieved by completely submitting total mindset mind power everything back to the Lord mighty if the Christians refer to him as the father we refer to him as the God the the Jews refer to him as Yahweh which in Arabic is the everlasting creature the everlasting being so that is essentially why we're here to make the world a better place and Jesus taught us how to do that just like how Muhammad taught us to do that by submission thank you 30 seconds for every yeah guys we saw a lot of flip-flopping we saw a lot of contradictions we saw a lot of misrepresentation we we had the Muslims admit openly that there's no way in the world that Allah is a father in any sense and also made the statement that whoever claims that Jesus is the Son of God is not a submitter and a heretic yet they quoted verses that said where Jesus himself says that he is the Son and God is the Father so therefore Jesus is not a Muslim he's not a submitter he's a heretic according to these guys they gave us the debate it was over a long time ago floor is yours David all right well uh pretty simple according to the Quran Christians are supposed to judge by the gospel we know what that means the Quran says we have it and requires us to judge by it and to live according to it we saw where our Muslim friends go when they want to explain what the gospel teaches and there's no passage they could they could go to where we can't just read in the same passage before it or after it and find that it doesn't line up with Islam so if the Quran is sending us to the gospel and the gospel contradicts the Quran I don't think we can say Jesus is a Muslim because Islam is just an incoherent position time with that want to say thanks so much for watching folks appreciate all of your questions thank you to the speakers they're the lifeblood of the channel do check out their links in the description box right now what are you waiting for even if you disagree it's a great opportunity you might as well at least understand well what you disagree with and last but not least if you 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youtube which for me like frankly we're not ashamed of wanting to grow like we never thought it was like bad I think sometimes youtubers are like oh you know like we don't care if we grow like we just do it for fun and I'm like well I do it both for fun because I love it but also frankly we think we're providing something of value which is a fair platform that's our goal is to provide a neutral platform so that everybody has their chance to make their case on a level playing field that's important that's what we all want no matter what walk of life we're from we'd all agree that we might say well you know like I'd like to see my side have its strongest case but you know you want it to be done on a neutral like a fair channel and we try to be fair as moderators we want to give everybody the you know equal amount of time and also we want to be fair in the sense that we want to say hey I know that a lot of people are like well James are you ever have you ever thought about like putting out your own like videos and like no I'm not going to do that because modern day to be we always want to preserve this for the long run where it's just debates if there's anybody making a case where you know if I were if somebody were to if I were to make a case somebody will be opposing me it'll be a debate so we want to say thank you guys for your support we're excited about the future Zen 2011 I see you there amazing thanks for your support I see you there in the live chat Salam Stucey am I saying it right glad that you're with us Bill Mandalay thanks for coming by Billy Dev glad to have you here Becca happy to have you here on the old live chat Joshua Andrews I see you there in the old live chat thanks for coming by says after watching this debate another hundred thousand let's see we appreciate you being here Joshua and mint any am I saying it right mint any thanks for being with us as well as amazing I gotta tell you thank you guys for all your support hundred or was it a thousand likes in a stream thank you guys for going to going to bat for us we appreciate that is that does for real it's another form of engagement just like comments and the like which I gotta give you a reminder about comments is that engagement does make this video rank more highly so if somebody types in Muslim Christian bait this video is more likely to pop up as the first one if it has more like so you are actually in a real way you are helping more people see this debate if you thought your side came out strong hey great reason to hit like so more people will see it the other thing is if you hit subscribe or like you're telling the algorithm hey send me more of this like this is the kind of stuff I really enjoy like this gives me a lot of pleasure that lets youtube know what to serve you more of which for me when I'm on youtube I know that I don't know am I the only one that still has this uh was guilty pleasure and I watch prank phone call youtube channels David would before the stream told me that he used to do that 15 or 20 years ago so I'm not the only one but my friends I can tell you I always hit like on my favorite videos on youtube and I'm very serious about this I really do try to like if I really like a video like I do purposely hit like because I'm thinking like okay I hope this sends a message to the algorithm to send me more of this because I just enjoy it that much I've got to say this debate was huge I it's been a while that for this topic both of these topics sustained 1400 live viewers that's crazy I think that's more than at our September event when we hosted so I mean it's just been tonight people were polled about these debates tonight so thank you guys for your support let's see Zen 2011 says you are guilty so am I thank you for that I uh I have more mistakes than I care to admit in fact oh okay that reminds you I did earlier and I just trailed off I mentioned comments uh it's not about comments like you know you can say what you want within reason we're pretty like easy going we don't want you to feel like you're walking on eggshells right is when it comes to comments this video is I think I'm going to put it on private which I kind of I'm like do I want to do that the only reason that I think I'll do that is because this debate got major just crazy love by that I mean like yeah 1400 like probably an average of like 1300 people watching the whole the whole night like four hours that's really good thank you for watching also a thousand likes during the stream that's huge so yeah this video would perform really well and so I'm like I don't know if I want to just like not like let that kind of like give it a good strong start in the algorithm but I will also take each debate basically I'll take this download it and so I actually think what I'll probably do is I'll keep this up and then I'm going to download the debates at this stream cut it in half so that each debate is its own standalone video and then re-release those on our standard footage or standard debates so just want to let you know originally I was going to tell you like just want to let you know you won't be able to find this video for a little bit that's not actually true because I'm just thinking right now I'm like I'm just gonna keep all three of them up YouTube it like in a way it's kind of like I'm not quite supposed to do that because you know YouTube is kind of like well but it is kind of like in a way we're kind of re-uploading chunks which is actually okay like YouTube just they call it like the pillar method you have this big huge piece of content your huge pillar this debate and then you chip pieces off of it and upload those that's what we're doing it's just that they're instead of it being chipping off two pieces we're breaking the pillar in half and then but yeah uh Houston Euler says doing that will delete the chat window that's right I do want to keep the chat window up too because some people if they didn't get their super chat read they may take solos am I saying that right define solace they might they may find solace comfort in the fact that their super chat is still going to be seen here on the live stream so I don't and want to say you guys it's always fun I enjoy this more than you know uh so many debate I could just go on and on about how many debaters will help this channel so I appreciate all the debaters that were on tonight they obviously have helped us a ton just by being here we are excited about debates in the future we're going to probably try at least for the next couple of weeks we're going to try to be a little bit more like there will be maybe like two debates per week and thanks for your feedback samir and you're right about that I am sorry about that it wasn't purposeful that there were more questions that I read for the muslims and so I do apologize for that so samir I will say that I should have done a better job of that I'm sorry um it was a tough I think next time I'm gonna ask the debaters because we're supposed to do three hours tonight and which is you know long already you know for debaters to put that much time into it and then it ended up being four so man these guys really gave the shirt off their back and in the retrospect I think I would have trying to think of how to handle this frankly I think I probably would have asked for longer in the first place although even then with four hours but I will work on that samir so I will I will find a solution to where we make it more balanced so uh and I yeah I apologize because I know I read it I remember I read your second question but I don't know if I I don't know if I read your first and I don't think I read your third so I do apologize for that samir I owe you let me for real like let me know in a future debate you can say hey bro you missed one of my super chats in the past or two of my super chats can you read this normal chat as a super chat like let me know I'll make it up to you because I'm sorry about that um but yeah I am we're excited about the future it's a little bit late here it's 1015 for me I know that you guys are uh hugely nervous that can you do two separate streams then have the first stream to be a raid of the second stream yeah we could maybe do that um it's a possibility yeah it's actually a good idea I see that they say what you mean I hadn't even thought of that that's clever it's a different way to do it I'd have to think about it but yeah anyway hopefully yeah I'm just so tired I'm gonna I gotta go and I also have to move some stuff around I want to say thank you guys for your support alivia you guys make this fun thank you guys for your positivity uh for every hater of which we do have some haters you'd be surprised you should have seen one of the comments I read last week I was like oh my gosh that person hates me I've like never saw such a scathing cynical nasty comment in my life it was so bad uh but the point is for every hater there are like 100 of you like that are super positive and supportive so thank you guys for being that way because you guys make up for it and then some like you make up for it by tenfold so thank you guys I love you guys um it's always fun keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable summer I see you there in the live chat says have a good night james thank you summer we'll connect soon I hope your uh applications go well but yeah thanks guys for your support uh exciting stuff we're excited about the future you know what we've got a ton of new talent we want to have on in modern day debate and yes so we've got a lot of cool stuff coming up so thank you guys appreciate your support thanks dev for your kind words uh thank you guys love you guys we'll see you at the next one I should I I never mentioned I should mention it let me fix this I'm gonna see if I can excuse me one thing that maybe you'd get a kick out of I don't know you guys can tell me is that you can see this right here on screen we do have these epic channel memberships and patreon summer row says like I got rejected don't worry summer if you're determined you can you I know it sounds like I'm unsympathetic my heart goes out to you because I know it's hard I've been through that my first round of doctoral applications all got rejected and then I got a masters that springboarded me into a doctoral program so uh if you're determined if you really want it I'm you're definitely smart enough I absolutely believe in you man so I hope you're not discouraged I know that I was super discouraged though so my heart goes out to you if you are discouraged it's normal I don't blame you but at the same time like don't give up because you know you can do it if you want to so and as I mentioned folks the bottom right of your screen patreon and channel memberships you might be thinking like wow what are the perks James well you know for example the bottom right of your screen those are our patreon and channel member supporters going through the scroll there you can see it there but also if you're kind of like oh man when you guys turn on slow mode in the live chat well if you have a channel membership you actually are immune from the slow mode in the live chat did you know that it's pretty cool so if there is a slow mode on and you have a membership like you won't be slowed down if you want you can send every single second you can send some lewd and lascivious message in the live chat if you want but yes thank you guys for your support love you guys and then yeah oh I forgot to mention though that the patreon is linked in the description box below and channel memberships all you have to do is click join right below this video it's usually in the area where you find the subscribe button but yeah I want to say thank you guys for your support you guys make this fun summer row says thanks for the support James definitely in high spirit still well good I'm glad that's encouraging be excited about the future there are huge opportunities to come and it's it's exciting I can tell you as an old man I'm 36 I'm pushing 37 and I could tell you this life is exciting in terms of like sometimes it just sometimes it throws you these like crazy cool fun surprises and you know you just keep working and that's the thing it's like people talk about luck it's like yeah it's true there's such a thing as luck but you know what you're gonna be way more likely to catch good luck if you're just out there trying over and over and over like that's what like so in a way it's kind of like almost what forces you to kind of grab hold of luck in a weird way if you just it's really it's about how you put it in the language but anyway thanks for your support love you guys we'll see you the next one keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and we'll see you next time