 We are we're live and recording. Okay. Thank you for anyone who's out in the public waiting room for waiting patiently. We had a bit of a zoom glitch. But we are now on to the joint committee. Capital planning committee on March. All right. I have a question for you. And I have a question for a second. I have a question for fourth. And I have Sean will put up the agenda. What, while he's putting that up, because we're conducting this meeting virtually. I need to make sure that all the committee members can hear me and be heard. So I'm going to go. Across the screen as I can see it and just call out names. And let me know whether everything is working for you. you're going to be leaving early. And then I'm going to be leaving early. Mandy. Present. Tammy. Yes. Andy. Present. Carrie. Present. Okay. So that that, um, you know, the committee members are here. Carrie had let me know. I think Carrie, you said you're going to be leaving early. And then Peter is going to be joining late, but Nanny. Yes. We're going to be swapping. I'm going to leave around eight o'clock. We can go right into the first item on the agenda. We're doing police than fire than public works for those in the public. And we'll take a public comments after we go through all the presentations. And the councilors have a chance, the committee members have a chance to go back and forth with questions. This is being recorded. And we are posting the recording. So if anyone wants to go back and look at it, they can watch it and the minutes to the extent we can are going to put the zoom link also. So people can both look at the minutes and go backward. I just want to say one thing about the minutes. I sent a draft. I'm somewhat expanded draft on what Peter had done. To everyone tonight. Cause I wanted to make sure we captured the questions that we had asked. A last time Sean sent me a list of what he had in his notes. So if anyone sees that there was something that we wanted more information on that are not captured in the minutes, just please let us know. So in the minute, you'll see, we asked for more information on several different items last week. And we'll do that again. At the end of this meeting. And I'll try to try to get that list back to people. So I think we can go right into. The first group, Sean. Yeah. So please start going to be presenting first. So I'll turn it over to Scott. To walk us through his projects for this year. And then. See if there's any questions. Okay, great. Can everybody hear me well? Yes. I can. Thank you, Kathy. And to the rest of the. Joint capital planning committee. So I will be presenting. For the two items. Which amounts to six items for the police department. An item to. I T slash communications. And then for animal welfare. All or which under my purview. So starting off with the police department. Capital request. We have. On the list are four vehicles. Typically in a, in a, in a normal year. We would request three vehicles each year. And then every fourth year. We request four vehicles for replacement. Last year, I think everybody knows there was. Probably no capital. Items that were granted. So. This is a four year capital request for four vehicles. The project cost is $260,000. Which is $55,000 per vehicle with set up costs. These are all hybrid vehicles. Which is. A new request. We've all, we have hybrid vehicles in our fleet now. We have hybrid vehicles. This is the first time we've had a request for patrol vehicles. Which are hybrid, which is a good sign that there were transitioning in that direction. These will be placed. Four vehicles that. Typically we try and replace these vehicles around 100,000 miles. This will replace a 2013 vehicle. With 126,000 miles. A 2014 vehicle. With 90,000 miles. Which will be over 100,000 by the July 1st. Deadline. A 2017 vehicle that has a 102,000 miles on it currently. And then a 2001 vehicle, which has a 101,000 vehicle or excuse me. 101,000 miles on it as well. So those are the vehicles that will be replaced. If these are granted through the committee request. Again. The good news is that these are all going to be hybrid vehicles. This is relatively new when it comes to the patrol vehicles. So this is a good sign that. Ford GM and Dodge, which are the majority of the vehicles that. Submit bids to police vehicles are all transitioning over to hybrid vehicles. So we're finally getting to the point. Where we are transitioning to hybrid patrol vehicles. And then we're going to be able to. So we're finally getting to the point where we are transitioning to hybrid patrol vehicles. We've been many, many years where we've had hybrid for administrative vehicles. So that's a good sign. And Sean, you want me to just keep going with, with all our request. Yeah. Why don't you keep going through the rest of them and then we'll stop for questions. Okay. And then the second request is the replacement up to. Our in car video systems. This is, we've been, we've had in car video systems in our cruisers for 22 years now. We're, I think the first police department in Massachusetts that had in car video systems. So we continue to, to replace those as needed. And this is just a upgrade and replacement of older. Police systems that we've had in place for many, many years. This allows us, these systems allow us to video and audio capture all of our police stops, which protects both the police officers involved in the public and makes for good transparency. So this is something that we've been doing pretty consistent for the last. You know, 20 some odd years where. You know, it's like every other thing that involves it matters. They wear out a transition over to newer and better products. And so this is a upgrade and replacement of those systems. And from the police perspective. That is the only. Request we are making. We have additional requests from it. We have additional requests from the police department. We have additional requests from the police department. We have additional requests from the community. Slash communications and police. Which is an upgrade to our. Networking of. Our communication system. So this is a transition from. Telecommunication systems that we lease to now the. And let me make sure I get this correct. I'm going to go back to the, I'm going to go back to the radio communications, which involves a little bit of police. Slash fire. Last EMS. Most of those costs through the years have. Been lease equipment through. AT&T and that sort of thing. And I think most of the people are aware. That we are now currently switching over to a fiber optic network, which is ongoing as we speak. So this is part of that replacement system. And we're going to have to, we're going to have to, we're going to have to, we'll no longer necessitate that we lease this equipment, but we will now own this equipment. So the cost will be foreseen in that in the years to come. And then the only other item on the police. On, on which I oversee is the animal welfare. Budget. And that's a request for a replacement vehicle. For the driver. For the driver. And then we'll have to go back to that. And then we'll have to go back to that burn. She's got a vehicle that she's been driving. I think it's 12 years old. It's, it's breaking down. We've replaced a number of things on it. It's on its last leg to the point where we rarely let her drive. Any further than about 10 miles. From the station, because it's just kind of, it's rusting out. It's getting old. Um, you know, it's just, it's breaking down and it needs to be replaced. So those are the costs that are associated with her replacement vehicle. And, uh, that is for $55,000. So that's kind of where we're at. Yeah. And I'll just add one thing, um, for the animal control vehicle, we actually increased the amount a little bit from what was submitted, um, in hopes of making that vehicle a hybrid as well. I think that will depend on whether we can find the, the, that vehicle is a little different than police cruisers, right? Scott. So we'll have to see if we can find a hybrid version that works for what she does. Yeah. Correct, Sean. Um, Carol specifically requested a vehicle, um, she'll, she'll get mad if I say this, but you know, she's got an old pickup truck and sometimes she has to live animals either that are hurt or just need transportation and she has to lift them up to an end of the pickup truck. And she's, she's picked out the vehicle on her own, which is a, um, it's a small van type that you see will like be auto parts delivery vans. If that makes sense. Um, it's very small, but it has the sliding door on the side. So it's very easy to just lift, lift things into it in and out, whether it be cages or animals, that sort of thing. So I'm kind of taking the lead on Carol's request on this. So, um, why don't we, um, take questions, uh, comments. I'm looking, let me look, you can do it by raising your hand with the, the panelist button. And I think I will see them on the screen by, uh, Mandy. Andy can go first, cause I'm still formulating, but I didn't want to lose my chance with taking minutes. So can you let Andy go first and then I'll, I'll work on it. Go for it. And I, uh, I was probably going to be a minor point because I think that, uh, chief party probably responded to it, but I recall the last time, uh, there was discussion at JCPC meeting several years ago about the fact that, uh, we needed a new animal welfare, uh, vehicle, the, one of the major concerns was that it be the type of vehicle that, uh, Carol could lift a heavy animal too, or would have a mechanism to lift a heavy animal too so that she didn't endanger herself as she was trying to, um, assist the animal. It might be, uh, it's often danger. So it sounds like you've solved that problem and we just need to have a proper description of the vehicle built into the process of, um, acquisition. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, Andy. So one issue we're having is trying to, um, be consistent with new vehicle purchases, the one vehicle, uh, Carol's requesting, we haven't yet been able to find in a hybrid model, um, and there's a four cylinder model, which the difference isn't that big a deal. But I know we're trying to be very consistent in how we go move forward with vehicle purchases with hybrid. Um, so we're having a little bit of difficulty finding that specific model that she requested in a hybrid model, but, um, you know, we're working on it. I think we'll find something that the town will be agreeable and that is very cost saving. And again, the amount of driving Carol does this vehicle will outlast Carol, probably she'll hit me for saying that. But, um, her vehicles tend to last 10 years plus or at least the vehicle she's driving it, she's had for 10 years and that was purchase brand new for her. So, um, you know, it'll be cost saving no matter how we cut it. Mandy. Hey, I've got it there. Many of my questions, uh, chief, you answered regarding the animal welfare vehicle. So thank you for that. And thank you for coming in with a plan for hybrid options for the cruisers. I know, I think it was last year, but maybe it was the year before. I'm forgetting how far we got in our process last year. You talked about them coming out with hybrids and that you were really looking at them. So it's great to see that they did come out with them. Um, and that it, you believe that it's a possible way for us to actually go in terms of, um, you know, safety and usability and, and, you know, all of the stuff, you know, longevity and stuff that we look at in purchasing vehicles, um, in car video systems. And, you know, Paul's not going to be too surprised at some of my questions. And I don't expect full answers right now. Um, as you know, I'm a sponsor of a surveillance tech bylaw, um, in the council. So, um, you know, I'm looking at these and, and I have some questions that aren't necessarily JCPC related, but I'm going to take the opportunity. Um, and I don't need full on in depth answers, but I'm just curious about some stuff. Um, what is the policy on the use of these? You know, you, you mentioned, I think in your report that, um, they capture all police stops. So is it anytime the cars that the police officer is leaving the car to deal with someone in the public, they, the policy is to turn them on and do we have that written somewhere? Um, where does the officer have discretion? Um, and the other question I had was release and access really, you know, um, do we have a written policy on who, who in town has access to those videos? Um, and the data from them, who in the public or other government agencies can request access and the circumstances under which they might be given access. Um, I don't need to know what they are. I'm just curious whether we have those policies. So yeah, that's a great question. And I expected there would be some. So when it comes to the in car video, we have very specific policies on that and how they're used. The police officers themselves don't have access to when and when they can turn those on and off. So, um, once they turn the blue lights on and stuff, they go on and they don't have the ability to turn those off. And, um, they have very specific, um, we have very specific policies, um, on, you know, the audio and video distribution of that stuff. So most, most times it's used for, um, the district attorney's office when it involves, you know, drunk driving, arrest, that sort of things, um, we do get public requests from time to time for those. It is a public, um, it is a public document, so to speak. So if people want access to that, they have access to that. If somebody, for instance, we pulled you over and you got stopped for speeding and you wanted to see that you would have access to that. Um, it is not kept for longer than in Gabe. Correct me if I'm wrong. Is it 10 days? We have the storage capacity to hang on to it for a little bit longer than that. Um, uh, it's, it's actually 30 days that we can hang on to it and, um, again, just to reiterate what the chief was saying in terms of accessibility. When it's activated, the officers don't have any, there's no method for them to alter in any way. And we only have specific, uh, supervisors that do have access to the video recordings, uh, if they needed to be disseminated. Thank you for that. Appreciate it. You're welcome. Um, the other good news is we were notified and I'm going down the road because I know we've been talking about hybrid vehicles for a long time. But Ford Motor Company, which is our supplier of vehicles and others, um, they've notified us within three years. We'll probably be all electric. So I think that's a really good sign as well, which kind of shocked me. But we've been told that, um, they, they think within three years we will all be driving a fully electric patrol vehicle. So that's a good sign as well. Chief, if I could just add, uh, folks, um, myself and Doug Geary, who's in charge of our fleet, we went and tested out a lot of these hybrid vehicles and they've come a long way. Um, Ford has made a huge effort in really focusing on law enforcement vehicles with these hybrids. Uh, so they're really designed for police officers and its use. Um, they're really quite impressive in the chief is correct within three years. Uh, the technology is just going to advance dramatically in our favor. So I'm, I'm looking to see if there any, I have a couple of questions. So I'm just looking to see if anyone else's hand is up on, uh, one is on, uh, the public radio fiber, uh, chief living stone, and it may be one that has to rebate for later. But, um, as I read the short paragraph on it, um, we get a pretty good payback on this. You've, you've listed that it's $9,000 a year to rent it and the cost is in the 80 to 85,000. So, uh, what I want to know is it's, we're using UMass and the top, uh, top of the library, the way it was described, um, could this be even lower if we're tapping into what they're doing as part of their, um, uh, partnership with the town of Amherst. So Peter, Peter sent in, could it be 70,000? And I don't know what was behind his question of just throwing out another number. So, so it's sort of a question of, um, can we do more with the fact that they have a pretty sophisticated system and we're at least having a locational link up. Um, that was my question on that one. So if I understand it correctly, um, Kathy, it's are we paying something for the setup on the library system and can that be reduced through negotiations with town and gown? Is that basically what it is that? Um, Lindsey, you know, um, because we do coordinate a lot of our communications, we piggyback with the fire department and I know, um, our IT people and Lindsey work pretty close together. So Lindsey, is that something you would have an answer to? Yeah, I think so. Um, I've worked closely with, uh, Doug Geary and, um, Sean Hannon from IT on this project because it really is joint fire and police. Um, to answer your question in short, Kathy, I don't think there's any savings to be had there because I don't believe we're paying you masks for access there. All of the costs in the proposal are, uh, technical, you know, it's to buy equipment and, uh, things like that and the installation, I don't believe we're actually paying for the space. What we're actually buying is, as the chief said, all the radios currently for police and fire are hooked into, uh, phone lines, Verizon, or it used to be AT&T phone lines. Through an interface, in order to switch those radios over to the town's fiber that's being put in, um, you need a different interface. So for each radio, we have to get a different, think of it as a modem, basically, that goes from the radio to the now, uh, fiber network instead of the phone lines. And then the savings are realized because we no longer have to pay the outrageous monthly rental fees for those phone lines. The other part of this is right now the radios at the Tower Library for police are, um, basically out in the open in a, uh, HVAC room. UMass has a nice, uh, protected space up there, a radio room basically for their police department, and they're allowing Amherst police and Amherst fire, again, I believe at no charge to move their equipment into that room so it's better protected, has generator backup, etc. So Peter just joined us. Peter, I asked your question about $70,000, but I wasn't sure what was behind it. Just on, uh, is there any room for, on, on the, um, the radio fiber? So if you wanted to follow up, you would send that in to me. Yeah, no, I'm just looking at high-priced items and wondering if we payload, peel them back a little bit, um, are they still viable? It's a general question I'm, I'm curious about a lot of stuff, not just, uh, the police stuff. Yeah, I believe in this one, as that she said, this, this is based on an actual quote with our radio vendor Goose Town Communications to do the work necessary to move all the police and fire radio equipment, uh, over to the fiber from the phone lines. So we get that savings and move the equipment into the UMass, uh, hardened room up there. You know, just the, the savings, the $9,000 annual, that's out of operating budget, correct? I mean, somewhere, somewhere in the large town operating budgets, police and fire. I deferred to, um, John, I believe that's the case, yeah. Yeah, okay. Okay, uh, I think that was my main question, um, the, just on you listed your cars and the car replacements, one of them, I think you said only had 90,000 miles, but you're going for, maybe I misheard it, um, but you're going for replacement of four. So I just had a question of, is the judgment of which four, aside from mileage, are they at the point of falling apart, having frequent repairs, you know, on, on the fleet? Yes, Kathy. So typically, and that's where we kind of do the cutoff is at the 100,000 mile mark. And what we found is, we may get a little bit more miles out of them, um, you know, like I said, some of them have 126, 102. The things that tend, start tending to break down at 100,000 miles are the expensive items like transmissions and, and the engines themselves, because not only are there, um, 100 plus miles on them, but we also have to consider the idling time, which is typically about double of what the mileage is, you know, so if you're at a, uh, an accident scene, for instance, that vehicles running idling the same amount of time that it would be, you know, driving normally. So, um, you know, I can't give you a definitive answer that this is going to, you know, everything's going to break down at 100,000 miles, but typically where we, yeah, major breakdowns is a little bit over 100,000 miles, and it's usually high ticket items that are breaking down transmissions and engines. Do you have any, um, sense with a hybrid? We have a hybrid, um, and it has a lot more than 100,000, but the idling is different because you switch, you switch off the gas, but, um, about the longevity or there aren't too long, too soon on the mark to know it, that the things that tend to go are like the battery. You may have to replace a battery after a certain amount of time, so I just don't know whether what the switchover will mean about the frequency of replacement. And I don't either, um, we know, you know, these are hybrid electric, so yes, when they're idling, they're going to be running off electric battery. So I don't have an answer to that. It's going to be interesting to see how these, and maybe people who do own hybrid vehicles can get even me an idea. I'm not even sure if Ford knows how these, because there's a lot of items that are runoff, which are electric. You know, we have, we have the in-car video systems, we have computers, we have flashlights, we have AED, you know, life-saving equipment that are all hooked into this, you know, so there's a lot of equipment that's running off the batteries. The other thing that Ford does nice for police vehicles specific is it's all heavy duty braking systems and the crash systems are heavier duty than, so they're rated higher for front-end collision and rear-end collision, up to 80 miles per hours, which is different than what you and I can buy or purchase. So those are the types of things that are typically more expensive for us. Thank you. You're welcome. I don't have any other questions and I'm looking, I don't see any other hands up. So I think that does your, your items. Thank you very much. Okay, so next up is the fire department and before we go to them, I just wanted to point out one thing. I was speaking with Assistant Chief Stromgren earlier to yesterday, actually, and there's one section in the Capital Improvement Program where there's like the descriptions underneath the projects. And there's a section there that was from last year's request and it was actually updated for this year's request. So there's a place where Assistant Chief Stromgren will point out where it's different. It's in regards to the replacement schedule and how many we get, how much we are aiming for in terms of how long they will last. And so I just wanted to point that out before they get going. But with that, I will turn it over to Chief Nelson. All right, thanks. And Chief, I'll share the screen now for you for the. Okay, cool. Thanks. Yeah, as Sean said, what you have in your book is going to be a little different from what we wrote. Row, row, row. This is the most up to date for the version. So for us, we'll start off with our mobile rare radios. It's $45,000 class. And this is all, this is part of a multi-year project that we've been doing here for a while to replay places or radios that they reached the end, the end of their use. Their mobiles are the base radios that we put in our and right now, the one we're looking to replace is about 20 years old. And they're not really supported by their original manufacture. So another feature is that the big watchword actually since 9-9-9-9-11 has been in our upper building ability for us to speak speak to different A to A disease seems like. That's what you'll find in the new radio. So we're and we're looking to replace five or more. Next up, it's a $440,000 request to replace and ongoing placements schedule of our to have the Tech of Gear that's code helmet bone bunker pants boots at the event type of thing. Standard is 10, 10 years, 10-year replay placement. One of the things that we have to remain cognizant of is when we go out go out to train when we go go to the mass fire fire to the academy. They require that our that our gear is in is in is in compliance or we can't take part in training. And there's and you know there's there's wear there's tear there's just environment environmental factors sun, sun, sunlight as well that that will tend tend to break down material over a period of time. So and we've asked we've asked asked for the same same amount down down down down down through through the years stop the the up the up and down there have been some some years where where where we view you at all and somewhere where where where we haven't but we've seen where it it's good to get a consistent amount amount amount and what this this will do is allow allow allow allow to purchase about 15 sets of protective protective gear each each year and we and and then that key and that that will allow to stay stay on our our 1010 year because it's not just our permit force but we have our call for us our students students that that need that that that need here that's almost 100 per person now but our next next item is a our laptop laptop laptops for for our rub our and and our and and those it's about 15,000 thousand dollars already quest we use we use these to do our patient care care care care reports there they're we've been able so we can transmit transmit reports to the hospital plus it it takes care care of trans and many are bill billing in the information to to account accounting and and it's for data analysis as well we we we also run to our two front front line engines run run as per per per medic engines we can do everything that that we we can do in the let's accept transport so we so so we need we need to be able be able to do the same same same type type type of data data work that we would do on and and let's step be able to do that on on the on the on the firefighter fire so and we've been we've been we've been looking at at a three three year size of cycles every place placement size cycle they they get a lot of a lot a lot of work here and there out you know because we don't we don't we don't just just leave in the in the in the trucks will pull pull them out and they're right right there at the at the at the scene so lastly we're looking at uh we we we like like like like a place a place that and an engine or a pump pump or uh 400 150 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 three requests the stand standard is 200 200 200 200 20 years for and as for fire truck anti-type type type type type type type type fire truck the one we want to replace is a 1999 so it's about 20 22 year year year goals and uh as as as we've said you know 20 20 20 years is is is a separate life I I span for a front line as an engine and that and as as as we replace it the new new one would become our engine one which is here down down down and then and then then then we we shift shifted but shift shifting the next the next next the next one down to to to reserve and then for use by by our call for us and and our students students of course excuse me well now now when when the end of the interests of arrest and thank god Jesus you look as almost started talking about the new type technology with high high the high high risk what this truck truck truck could have is and it's called an anti-I I'd link technical technology we a lot of a lot of our our work it's not running going up and down down down down the street it's being on on on scene and I I think for time with this this would would do after after I said and said and said said period of time is it would shut shut the truck truck truck down and of course that's that's going to say save on fuel any and reduce reducing emissions so so that's that's something it's it's been slow to come to to the fire fire fire versus service but it's kind of coming it's kind of it's coming down down the road and one of the nice things about some something like this there's a state state bid bid list and some something like and it cuts down the our our acquisition time and just all all the rigor and all that that you'd have to have to go go go go again the the bid the bid the bid is all really set the bids specs are all all are all good because it's done it's done it's done by by by the state and then uh this is a chief strong strong gonna and own owns there here as well the kind if you need need to really dig down down down deep and into any of these three questions yeah I would just I'd like to expand on the its lighting technology a little bit because it's different than a hybrid like what they're talking about for the explorers first I just want to make a note chief living stone was answering the question about the reliability longevity of those vehicles I can't I can't because we have a nine before to escape here at the department it's our fire inspector vehicle and we've put the least amount of money into maintenance on that than any vehicle we have we've done oil changes tires once and I think we replace the regular battery not the hybrid battery once so it's been an incredibly reliable vehicle now that it's 12 years old so I guess that's a good sign the anti-idling technology for emergency large emergency vehicles unlike hybrids like the explorer for the police or the escape where you pull to a traffic light and it you know shuts down the motor as you're probably aware and then kicks in again when it needs to for large emergency vehicles ambulances fire trucks it's a different concept it does not affect the driving time at all you're still driving under the diesel motor power but what happens is when you get to the scene and put it into park then the anti-idling technology kicks in ambulances fire trucks in particular can spend hours especially the firetrucks hours and hours idling on a scene and unless you're pumping water for the pumper you don't need that big diesel motor running so the anti-idling technology basically on the scene shuts down the diesel motor switches to the battery back up to run the emergency lights heat ace radios other equipment and of course monitors all those parameters and it kicks the motor back on again if necessary to bring the power back up to heat the AC etc the interesting thing about that type of technology is you would think the larger the vehicle the much much larger hybrid system you need and that's not really the case because you're not trying to move the vehicle down the road with this technology you're just trying to keep the lights the radios the heat and the AC going so for a large fire truck it really doesn't have to be that much bigger system than any ambulance the ambulance that we have on order right now that was an emergency procurement last fall you may remember because one of our ambulances died was unrepairable that is has been purchased with the anti idling technology so that will be here this summer that the idling part of it was purchased using grant money so we will have our first vehicle here this summer with that technology and as the chief said when we buy this fire truck we can incorporate the same technology the ladder truck that did not make it to capital this year but it's out there and the wings need to be replaced our 33 old ladder truck when we revisit that next year that can also have that same technology in it so we can as we buy new vehicles for the fleet we would look to add that to every vehicle to try to meet the town's goals thank you questions comments on the committee Andy has his hand raised Andy yeah hi thank you for the presentation this may be a question for Sean and not for the chief of the assistant chiefs where are we as far as our ability to charge any of the proposed purchases to the ambulance fund this year and has the ambulance fund been affected by the number of calls that we've had yeah so Sonia would probably be the best to answer that but I can speak to it a little bit so the the ambulance that we did by the the anti idling piece was from the grant but the rest of that ambulance was from the ambulance fund Sonia to take a look at that and determine that we had enough to to purchase it out of that fund and still have enough to support the budget coming up to the FY 22 so it was affected by the pandemic and I'm sure actually assistant chief Olmstead can speak to it a little bit he sees the volume on a day to day basis there's a couple things that play so when you mass left that affects the calls but then we also did a study and had some change to the to the rates that we use for billing so maybe assistant chief can speak to that a little bit more about what he's seen now yeah I mean the other question that goes with it obviously is that to the extent that these purchases are priorities for the town and recommended by the town manager unless money is available for the ambulance fund then needs to come out of the taxpayer portion of the capital budget which affects the entire plan so I just was trying to see how it all ran together yeah and one thing before I turn over to assistant chief so all of these are coming out of the taxpayer portion that the projects that were discussed the large pumper is there's a couple projects that are on there is slated for borrowing and that is one just so you probably saw it when you looked at the plan but that is one of the vehicles that we would potentially borrow I think I have it for five years and the projections because of the cost Jeff do you want to speak a little bit more about what we're doing I just want to make sure Andy's all set you know I was just going to point out that that kind of a vehicle probably is not legally permissible for the ambulance fund it's more of the some of the radio equipment that's been talked about maybe a portion of other vehicles but anyway thank you so just to kind of follow up yes the particularly the fall where the students weren't here at the colleges that definitely affected our call volume and we certainly see the uptick even with the limited number of students who've come back to campus you can already see the uptick of calls before COVID we'd switched over to a new billing fee structure and that had actually significantly raised some rates and brought us in better balance with most of their neighbors in the Hampshire county region ambulance services that were someone ours so it's been a little bit of an offset where the higher rates are being you know helping offset the lack of calls but it it'll be a little while before we sort of get back to our normal both volume and seeing all the benefits of the increased rates probably we're hoping to start getting some trend information you know if next year UMass comes back and full strength Jeff I don't think we've seen a full year yet with the new rates with things at at normal levels right no I think we started end of January February with the rates and then COVID comes in March the students go home you know shortly thereafter and don't come back after spring break and then we went through a period of time where people were pretty nervous about going to the hospital honestly in April and May and in bit of June I know we really want to go to the hospital so they didn't call us unless they really really needed to and then we didn't have the students in the fall so you do see those numbers affected by that but at the same time as soon as the students came back and their limited format there's certainly plenty of them live off campus as well you can see the volume starting to come back so there's a strong belief that you know next fall things will look a little more and I'll say normal but like they used to be looking for other questions I have one on a smaller item on the laptops it's $15,000 for three laptops which is relatively high for laptops depending on what the laptop has in them so I didn't know whether these are special come pre-programmed to have various kinds of connections and also a laptop versus a tablet if you're carrying it around outside so it's just it's a question on the technology that's being used so yeah we've as we've done this we've actually had a transition over to a different electronic reporting system and we actually need the same amount of money but actually need more laptops because as you see this was an unfunded request from last year the new EPR system doesn't need quite as much computing power that the old ones did and so those old ones were almost five were basically $5,000 a piece those were solid state circuitry military spec type of gray because of the wear and tear and I needed a computer that could almost basically run the system individually we switched over to one that is cloud based and needs a little less of that solid state circuitry but instead of needing three I need more like six because we usually have five amels is going the two EFR engines and would like to have a one spare so that we can sort of keep the system up and running because occasionally things break and you want to keep all the vehicles going and the electronics going so we can do patient care reports and the billing that's associated with that so we are looking at a tablet format that hopefully will be a little bit less but it's like I said instead of needing three that we needed last year I'm looking at really needing six I already have two two that are down and out completely one that's not working very well and the fact that we have a fifth ambulance is not in service because the engines blown has given me a little bit of a break on needing you know I can't replace that that laptop right now I don't have the means to do it so we're we're kind of hoping to hang on to July 1st to to make this all work okay thank you anyone else I don't I don't see any other questions so I my one request would be the one pager that you showed that had some additional information on it if we could just get it sent to Sean so we can we can send send send send that that would be great that would be great that would be great that would be great that would be great sure not a problem that'd be great thank you very much I think that's that's this batch right Sean so then we're on to now we're on to to the Department of Public Works Guilford are you there to there there he is maybe there yeah am I all right so got my two two screens going here just to make sure you get all everything in here so for our our capital we'll start with the actual roads and sidewalk type stuff our first request is stormwater management program this is a request actually our first one is transportation plan we actually have requested every few years of some of money to help with the transportation issues where we're working on using it for either some site work or survey work or some type of data collection we're asking for $50,000 for this year our next request is stormwater management program we've been asking for a small amount we had we didn't request anything last year and this coming year we're going to need to do actually do some actually sampling and testing of the waters that come out of our discharges so we put in a rough number of $100,000 for that that's basically to build our baseline for what we have to do next there's a from town from town funds we're appropriate asking for $200,000 for sidewalk repairs around around town last year this money was used to reduce strong street summer street and we did a major repair on wood lot in the Amherst woods where there was some damage to the sidewalk there we started working on North Pleasant street last year but we didn't finish we ran out of the season we'll start on old North Pleasant Street this year we have a project to tie the sidewalks into Kendrick Park this year as well as we finish the Kendrick Park playground there's no crosswalk between the neighborhood to the west and the and the Kendrick Parks we're going to change the intersection at McClellan and old North Pleasant Street so we can have a crosswalk and sidewalks that lead to the park we also use part of this money last year to put the sidewalk in that runs across Kendrick Park now there's a nice wide sidewalk that goes from the east side to the west side so that's what we used last year and like I said old North Pleasant Street and the intersection at McClellan and old North Pleasant Street will be the first things we work on for this coming year which actually will be money actually will be 2021 money because our construction season runs different than your in the budget years we're still putting together the rest of the list for next this construction season I believe Amity Street will probably be on it will probably replace the sidewalks on Amity Street tie that in with the work that the gas company did on Amity Street as well our next request is road repair and this is this is town money for road repair there's 850,000 and that will be matched with the chapter 90 money which is also on the list if you'll see it's 841,000 for chapter 90 we're still finalizing the list of roads to do in the next construction season with this money so I'll have to send you that list week or so after we finalize what we're proposing to do we are asking for $450,000 to begin the final phases design for the North Amherst intersection we won't use all that $450,000 on the finalizing the design that money will be to finalize it and then there'll be some money to start construction if we actually get a good design and we're ready to go and it's approved the next next item on our list is every year we ask for $12,000 roughly to do street lighting or lamping it's basically going through and hitting the older older photo cells and older lamp structures and replacing them so that's the that's that list and then our vehicle list we're asking on the vehicle list we have three vehicles we're looking to replace one's a one ton dump that we use in the parks department this is the truck you see driving around very early in the morning picking up trash it goes out seven days a week picks up the trash the transmission starting to slip on it so if we keep the vehicle we're going to have to put money into a new transmission it's 12 years old and it has about it has 76,000 miles on it as of the first of this month that's the first truck we're asking for it also has a special lift in it that we take the trash body off and we can put a sander body or a dump body on it for snow plowing when we do snow plowing so it's not the same body on the back of the truck we'll keep the bodies we're just replacing the truck in the lift that goes on the truck the next truck is one of our big sanders the truck we're replacing is is a 2006 it's an international it has 90,000 miles on it it's not the most comfortable truck to drive and since we have some newer ones it doesn't get driven as much it only goes out for the major storms right now this truck that will that's being replaced is or this truck that we have is a tier two EPA tier two diesel engine so the newer truck will be a higher it'll be at least a tier four if not the tier five EPA required emissions on it and it will be a diesel the last truck we're looking to replace is our sweeper the sweeper is a 2004 it's 17 years old it only has 45,000 miles on it but the sweeper's job is not to go out and drive around a lot the sweeper goes out and putts along at three, four, five miles an hour sweeping and it actually has two engines on it it has the engine which moves the vehicle and runs part of the truck and it has a second engine which runs the sweeper apparatus sweeper apparatus engine has already been replaced once about halfway through its life we're going to have to replace that engine in another year or two if we keep the truck and then the sweeper has sort of a belt system and conveyor system which every five to six years has to be replaced inside the truck and we're up we're due for another replacement another two years the bigger trucks the sweeper and the international sander when we say we're going to buy one of those and those are authorized in the budget for 2022 it takes about 18 months for us to get that vehicle that's just the process lag inside the assembly plants now there is no longer the concept of just in time purchasing or manufacturing you can just in time purchase it but then it shows up once they just in time finish making it which is 18 months usually after you put the order in so those are our big our big items on the capital plan I don't think I've missed anything questions and I'll just add real quick that the the street sweeper is the other vehicle that is proposed as a borrowing so the the street sweeper and the fire truck would be sort of bundled in the the current plan and I'm looking for questions so I I can start out so I had several if if I'm I'm just making sure I don't oh Peter here's the end up Peter so yeah so everybody's favorite lightning ride road repair and resurfacing here we are again so 850,000 so that's the number one item on the cash capital list it's about a fifth of the the cash capital and this is a great example for me in terms of how I try and contribute here because I have absolutely no expertise in what you're talking about here so I can't really evaluate it there but so I just I just kind of want your generalized feedback that like say we knock this back to 700,000 would would our roads generally speaking still be safe and functional if if we put 700 in as opposed to 850 if you if you the easiest I guess the easiest way to say that is Henry street our estimate for paving Henry street is about $850,000 and that's paving Henry street all the way from market Hill Road all the way to the S curves where it turns into northeast street so at the prices that we have now you're just reducing the amount of length you can pave that answer your question better so okay so so you did that it like can cars still go down the road is it still a safe road to drive on is it still a safe road to drive on it's still a road to drive on there may be more potholes and there may be more delaminations going on and you may need to drive slower or else you're going to damage your vehicle and it's we have rough can I add to go for once you finish go for it and then I'll add to what you're saying we have roughly about a 20 to $22 million backlog we're doing another survey this year that's going to be part of what the work we do and we'll have a better number on our backlog but that's basically our backlog is about 20 22 million and so the one thing I was going to add is we've had a strategy for a few years now knowing that the four building projects are coming up that we wanted to make a major dent on the backlog of road projects and so there's been a big investment in roads the last two years and we maybe can get another year or two before some of those building projects start coming online you know if they get approved so one of the reasons why you see it where it is is because we have intentionally been trying to chip away at that backlog of roads before we have other other needs on the capital money in town and Peter did you have a follow-up on that question so I'm happy to come back okay Andy yeah actually this is follow-up on the same subject my understanding has always been that there are several factors that affect the town economically if we don't maintain our roads adequately and Chief Stromgren is here to respond possibly to some of it but one is that people who drive on roads and if there are problems that they encounter that we have failed to properly take care of there is the potential for insurance claims against the town the second thing is is that our equipment and particularly our heavy equipment which is generally fire department equipment school buses and some of the heavier DPW we're going to have wear and tear on those vehicles and that's going to come back to affect the town economically so for those reasons as well as for just trying to address concerns of our residents and what they think is an important measure for them of quality public service it's a real difficult decision to make to cut back on ongoing road maintenance program anyone else on roads because I have a question on something else but I want to stay on roads if there are other roads and or sidewalks I guess yes Peter yeah so I won't comment about road resurfacing until we get to the very end and we're wrapping everything up again but just to follow up on Andy's point I completely agree with Andy that this is this is an important investment that we need to make in the town and and LaShawn's planning is absolutely reasonable and makes sense what I'm trying to do in general though when I look at any of this stuff is see you know how far can we turn the knob down until we get to a real pain point because I think it's pretty clear on the operational budget this year and potentially the next X number of years with the four capital projects but the pain point is already there and so it's you know we we all value all of this stuff it's not a matter of should we do the roads of course we should do the roads it's it's it's where do we where do we strike that balance right so I'm not suggesting that for some quality of life is impacted by the number of potholes but for some other people quality of life is impacted by what we're doing to the operations budget and not just the schools and the operational budgets in the town so that's just where I'm coming from from that point of view I'm not suggesting that this is an irresponsible proposal but you know budgeting is a harsh zero sum game and that's what we're here to do that's certainly a truth statement I have a question on two items first the small one transportation plan and then secondly the North Amherst intersection on transportation plan I just want to understand how this actually works so a couple years ago there was a resident capital request that was put in for a sidewalk study on East Pleasant Street and they first cross-checked with TAC to the transportation advisory committee and it was at the top of the list and then the discussion with you Guilford was it could be at $50,000 could do the study and it became part of the transportation plan for that year for that $50,000 I don't think that's been done that study so I want to know how how are the priorities set and it's written up in a JCPC report specifically for that year so is it on a back burner and going to happen is there a list for each of those $50,000 each year of what the most likely is and then is there some kind of rationale for when we shift so I'll start just on that one piece. So yes we do have $50,000 and we have it here marked to do the survey work for East Pleasant Street it's slid a bit in the schedule we've been working the original first priority for the TAC and I think they were still they were called attack then the transportation advisory committee was improving North Pleasant Street and we spent we spent some other money on that and we've actually been working on that plan and we're actually ready to bring those plans forward this year and actually start working on the improvements on North Pleasant Street so this year this year yes we have to push the East Pleasant Street survey out so we have that going the one thing that does happen is other other little projects little ones pop up the Pomeroy and 116 intersection we had another project that kind of emerged that we needed to work on in between those kind of step in there too and get in the way of us moving them all along but we got them all going and in East Pleasant Street is next to get some push on it the $50,000 you're voting for now the TAC will choose what they think their next priority is and we'll probably earmark that money towards working on that project and probably another project because the projects they have right now are a little smaller and scoped and doing a sidewalk all the way down East Pleasant Street so just on staying just on the East Pleasant Street as an example if we did that study the cost you had quoted in the $300,000 range to put in the sidewalk so if we do a study and then I look out over the next five years and see the sidewalk budgets dropping pretty dramatically from what you're asking for this year I think it was the one that's dropping so it's the interaction yeah so it's dropping to $75,000 and then $50,000 over the next several of them and when I'm looking out the five years so it's a question of how these interact that if one thing replaces another as one year it was the priority and then suddenly it wasn't the priority but how do we have a systematic way of this is what we're going to do next and make sure we budget for that next piece so East Pleasant Street wasn't a priority over North Pleasant Street North Pleasant Street was chosen first by the TAC to be their first priority project to work on East Pleasant was chosen as their second priority I think they have a third now too I don't have it off top of my head I have to look it up so it wasn't like one of them like it dropped off because it was replaced by another priority this this type of money we do have other projects to come into the queue we have to work on that push the projects back a little bit that is what does happen as we do East Pleasant we start coming up with a number we'll start proposing that number for the actual number that will be in the in the capital plan and based on how the spending is going we'll see if we have additional money to fit it into the capital plan we may have to take some of the road money we have now or some of the chapter 90 money we have now and move it towards the sidewalk to do that sidewalk project and a new less paving on a road and that is something we've done in the past so at this point in the game there is a lot you have kind of what the immediate ask is and then there's a a bit of a float in the future and we just try to keep a number out there and then we work towards that number as we move along okay okay thank you for that and now I have a question on the North Amherst intersection $450,000 is this year's ask and next year would be 1.8 million the way it's sitting in this capital plan so what is the 454 because as you know I mean we've been following this I'm up in North Amherst so just full disclosure and there's been several years ago there was a community meeting about what to do with North Amherst there were a couple vignettes or drawings move the streets around redirect them with traffic lights without with traffic circles with a mix of them then you had a survey another $40,000 survey on what could be done and so there's a lot of interest on what might be the current thinking and would we spend money on designing something before we went out to say this is what we're thinking of doing that's that's my basic question because it when I when we went and we got the mass works grant with proposal and we looked at the designs that had been proposed with that because there had been some engineering work it was not the same picture that was displayed to people about what we were thinking of doing there so so it's a question of does the plan for what we're going to do precede spending $450,000 to get to the detailed pieces a bit what you're doing with Palmer or Lane which is getting a lot of input before jumping in to say this is what we're going to do so it's that especially when I see the 1.8 million a year later and these Shawn these are listed as cash they weren't listed as grants no they are these are that was the one thing I was going to say real quick before Gilford answers your question is these are borrowings so both pieces so this doesn't take away from the current year's cash capital and these would have to go in front of the council for debt authorization before we had any money to spend anyway so I just wanted to clarify that these are both borrowings so if it pushes a little bit later it wouldn't matter because we have to go in for the council anyway for debt authorization but does that mean you're not going for the Pomeroy we working on that intersection is almost entirely grant funded because there was success that one there is no current I mean there's no funding in the capital plan for Pomeroy right so I'm just asking about why not really push hard for a grant as opposed to 1.8 million dollars even if it's borrowing I mean if I convert 1.8 and 450 it's what Peter's asking about it's pulling from cash capital because yeah no so we are so we actually did talk about that and we I think do want to push for a grant part of what that money could be used for is to help further a design and to get some community input but we did talk about that's again it's a borrowing and that's why it sort of spread over two years but we did talk about potentially going for a grant for that project as well but we are planning since it is a capital plan for five years we do have it on there that's being a project out there for us to consider Gover do you want to talk a little bit more about sort of the next steps with that so the next the next step you kind of you kind of broach the whole subject of where we are with it our next step is to pull everything back together and see what we have and see where we're going and then talk to people about where we want to go the issue is sort of like Sean says is and what I said earlier you're making the budget for 2022 we kind of have the construction season moving for 2022 at this time already you're authorizing money some of this money won't be spent until 2023 because it'll take us time to get there but we need to kind of have some number we know is a number we can use and some authorization at some point for funds to if it's not spent in the fall of 2021 2021 or the winter of 2022 to finish up plans or to get plans going we won't have anything if we if we really have time and we really want to push this one forward this year if we decide if the council decides they just want to put this project off and let it sit for a year and a half before we do anything else on it then you could slide this out another year and and set it up that way but we've kind of lined this up as to be the next intersection we look at after the Pomeroy at 116 asking the putting it on the plan and asking for a little money right now doesn't mean we're not going to apply for a grant if a grant comes up and or try to do that that's always in the back of our mind but if we don't plan for having money now and we just say yeah we'll apply for a grant and we don't get the grant then you're moving the project out more and more years so that's really kind of how it's that's this is actually amazingly this is one of the first times we've done it this way usually we design every everything and then we try to hope to find money now we're trying to lay out yes we need a little bit of money and we need we think this is how much it is and schedule it in and then as other things if other money comes available then we would replace the money the town's using is normally what we would do yeah I see both Mandy and Tammy had their hands up I didn't see which order they came in so um I have one one quick question about Pomeroy which is not listed in here is this something that was approved before and what's happening at the Pomeroy 116 intersection so we received a mass works grant for 1.5 million dollars for that intersection so that project right now is 100% funded by there's 100% funded by a grant from the state we do have to spend some engineering money and we'll spend that engineering money out of either chapter nine probably chapter 90 to get the engineering plans finished for that but that's almost all out of grants state grant money can you just briefly say what what you're doing there seeing as I live like right near Pomeroy Lane I'm just curious the proposal the proposal is to improve the intersection so we're going to be reaching out and talking to people and gathering information what do you like about the intersection which I think is a small list what you don't like about the intersection big list what do you do in the intersection why do you come to the village center what are you trying to do are you trying to just go to one one business or do you walk to one business and then walk to several other ones we need to know what people are doing there so we're going to try to collect all that information together and then we're going to look at ways to solve it and when we apply for the grant we put two choices in there we put putting a full intersection with turn lanes and traffic lights and we put a second option of using a roundabout to do this but the goal I mean the goal is to make improvements so people can use it and kind of bring that little village center to life a little bit so you can move around between the four corners and you'll comfortable moving around the four corners and that you want to be in the four corners well I'd like to have more cars going down Palmer Way to 116 instead of going 50 miles an hour down Middle Street to Bay Road so anything you can do to improve that to keep cars from going 50 miles an hour by my but down Middle Street which is not a great street it's been interesting that since the roundabouts at Bay Road people avoid the intersection at Palmer Way because it's easy to get around Bay Road now with those roundabouts but good I'm thankful for that and thank you for updating me I somehow missed that thanks Kathy let me just speak real quickly it's been assigned to the town services not reach committee of the council to look at the alternatives and there are public forums set up by the that committee for I believe March 25th and March 27th two different and there's going to be a lot of publicity to try and make sure that the community and particularly people who are in your district are aware of them so Kathy thank you and Tammy if if you didn't take notes and that we can send you that information so Mandy yes thank you thank you I think Kathy covered all my questions on the North Amherst intersection and the transportation plan so that's fantastic so I have one question that is an update on station road bridge I didn't see it in the five-year CIP I know we got a grant I believe the grant won't cover the whole thing but I know we're also seeking another grant but what's the timing on that in case we don't get that grant and we need more money in the capital improvement plan for it and the next one is street lights street lights can be very contentious sometimes you've recently heard from my husband about one that shines in our bedroom but you know what is our you know you talked about in this in the application for funding that there's a lot of people or there are requests for more lights for walking and streetscapes and biking and all so I'm curious where what what our process is for determining whether we put in a street light is it that if one person requests it on a street we get a street light or does there is there a study that goes on so that it doesn't automatically go in how do you remove a street light if some light sometimes the neighborhood or people determine is there any process for determining whether street lights are no longer necessary and then another question is when I started thinking about how often these street lights are on it's like half the year because many of the the winter months it's like 15 hours a day or more and in the summer months it's still a good 10 so are there you know and to talk about an example that is I'm at the end of a cul-de-sac there is no sidewalk on our cul-de-sac there is a street light at the end of the cul-de-sac not in the round part of this cul-de-sac you'd actually hit some trees if you weren't paying attention and drove towards the street light there's no one that walks there so do we look at when someone when the street light is potentially for car safety do we look at non-electrified options for that such as reflectors in the road or on the curbing or a reflective sign that would be illuminated by street by cars I say this because in Hawaii there is a very long and curvy road that goes up to the top of the volcano where people pilgrimage for sunsets and sunrises so you're either coming down in dark or going up in dark and there is not a single light on that road it is but it is bright as anything because it is entirely reflective and you could not drive off that road if you wanted to in terms of if you didn't lose control of your car and you're going slow enough because you're lit up like like a runway frankly so do we look at those options that are not electrified options when it's not needed for walking and if there is a policy who does it or if there's not a policy who should be doing it so that we make decisions that are you know logical for where we're trying to go on climate action but also safety and everything that's a lot it is sorry so I'll start with the policy there's an old select board policy that is why it's been the guide for street lights street lights were reduced about I've been here I've all been here almost 20 years and it was 20 so 40 years ago when people talk about the great two and a half debacle and people were laid off and street lights were turned off after that they the town count that select board came out with a a policy that said we'll have street lights in the in the downtown area the business areas will have them at the end of cul-de-sacs at the end intersections of streets and on curves in the road and so what we've been doing since we replaced all the older lights with new led lights is the majority of the lights we put in now are in either the downtown area to illuminate downtown are there in the major areas where pedestrians are mostly the the most most recent lights we put in were on north pleasant street so that's where we've been concentrating on no one is asked in a while in a long time to take one out so I don't know how we would tackle that one we do need to start thinking about what we do for the next generation of lights and our next upgrade our next major upgrade for lights do we go with the smart city connected city versions where the lights actually talk to each other and you can program them to dim themselves down you can program them to turn themselves off and then when a car approaches they can turn themselves on or pedestrian approaches they can turn themselves on those that conversation does need to be have at some point and that does lead directly into what you're talking about about the green communities and so forth I don't have a streetlight on my street and I love it I think I told your husband we have some new neighbors from San Diego and they leave their lights on all the time and we're like it's really kind of disturbing but for the outside outlying neighborhoods we do need to have that discussion at some time about what do you want to do for the next generation of lighting in town so that that's I hope I answered your question and that's kind of where we're going with street lighting I think I have one more and you did generally answer it and it's about the led lights that are going in I know we switched to leds in all street lights a while ago has that ever been reviewed in terms of whether people complained more with the leds or less and technology for leds has even improved dramatically but what's been going on with that in terms of blue leds are a little more blue than the yellow and all of that can you just talk a little bit about how you evaluate all of that as you're putting new in the most interesting thing is that we're getting more the lights have been almost in for 12 years now so we can convert into leds about 12 years ago maybe a little more the most interesting thing is that the people who are having concerns about them have we're actually here when the lights were put in originally and there were no complaints when the lights were put in originally it seems to be either everything else is darkening down so the street light is the only thing left that's lit up and that's causing a concern so it's really kind of an interesting it wasn't like we changed the lights and people were complaining a lot the complaints are started building now actually as people as either it's darker around the lights and the lights the only thing left it's kind of interesting could be more awareness about just light pollution in general too yes maybe and can you talk about station road or I don't know whether that's town manager Backelmoulner you kind of hoped you forgot so yes we have a we have a half million dollar grant from the state small bridge program to do station road bridge we've applied to another one we think we've been told we have a really really good chance so we're kind of we're kind of hanging in our hat on the fact we get this other grant to do this project so if we don't get that then we'll have to readjust and do something differently but it's roughly a 1.2 million dollar grant we applied for and we're hoping we do get it so Peter has had his hand up Paul did you want to just speak to this point first and I think it's important so many people are under the impression oh the temporary bridge will last forever it can last a long time but ultimately mass DOT is going to require us to put a permanent bridge in and I think it's just you know fair to say that their standards are going to be different than what the temporary bridge is there and so it's going to be a lot different looking when we have to do this replacement is that accurate go for yes it's going to be it's going to be a nice large bridge Peter yes so on the North Amherst intersection and streetscape on and this idea that if we don't allocate this money now and next year this two and a quarter million of borrowing and then if we don't get a grant then it pushes it out a number of years I mean just my comment on that I guess mostly to Mr. Backelman since this committee is advisory to Mr. Backelman is that that's I would submit that that's something we should reasonably consider and that would be suboptimal and that would disappoint people and that would be pain but but what you know in the grander context of the rest of the capital that we're talking about here and the capital products we're talking about and the operational budget it's not about what are all the reasonable things that we can do it's where do we spread the pain right and if we have such a constraint on on borrowing and its impact and trying to get community support not just for the four capital projects but for the things like Mr. Morgana mentioned about trying to get this the roads paved before we before we hit that all these different values I find it pretty hard to justify something that we might get a grant for right something that I would consider a luxury and it's again it's not because it's not something we should do but we kind of have to accept that I think as a community and be transparent about but the pain is coming if we're going to do these projects and it's not a matter of avoiding the pain it's a matter of where are we going to intentionally take the hit and this is a kind of a large item but that would be up for consideration for that kind of thing so no Mandy it looks like your hand came back up it did I paged down on my questions and I have one question about the tree and ground one-tongue dump truck with a plow on the capital plan we were given that one looked like it was an $80,000 request and then like four lines lower there was a one ton dump truck four by four with plow same description as the first one on tree and grounds but for highway that was $60,000 for FY23 and I'm trying to figure out why those numbers aren't the same why the tree and ground one throughout the whole capital improvement plan is $80,000 and the highway one throughout the whole capital improvement program is $60,000 when they're described the exact same way yeah Gilbert and I can look at that we tried to look in those out years and and make the vehicles consistent across different areas but if if we missed that one we can update it we did update the plow figures this year so is it $60,000 or $80,000 because the $80,000 is in this current fiscal year but the $60,000 on the out year which would if it's really $60,000 would find us $20,000 in this fiscal year no it's really most recently was updated so it might it may lose us $20,000 in the out years Gilbert are those the same exact type of truck they're they're roughly the same truck so the $60,000 is a price we had two three years ago and the $80,000 is the current price all right so we will update that for the version you guys get at the end for your discussion and and all the smaller trucks just say you know they're all they're all gasoline powered there there is no hybrids and we actually we actually got rid of our last hybrid recently they're all gasoline powered unfortunately and so Tesla can figure out how to put a plow frame on the front of his Tesla pickup truck I don't see one out there yet Mandy yeah sorry that that reminded me though if Ford they have recently touted an intention to move their entire fleet f150s all of it f3 whatever they are even bigger ones to all electric will that if that happens and it's like within three years or something or five years or some really quick number if that actually happens will that potentially allow us to be buying some of these trucks these four by four one ton trucks or or some of the smaller ones that maybe aren't one ton trucks fully electric or hybrid possibly we'll be able to do that the only the only issue with our trucks is and if you look at the my if you look at the spreadsheet that was included the vehicles you'll see our mileage is are so variable when we're driving a truck from the facility to a job site and then we work at the job site and drive back we get much better gas mileage then we do if we put a plow on it and push snow with the truck so what we're seeing on the construction and the construction side is that they're coming up with electrical vehicles there's actually a small electrical excavator available right now it only works for it only works for eight hours and then you have to stop and recharge it for a snowstorm we can't have a vehicle that stops at eight hours I think what we're going to find is that for these heavier vehicles there's going to be some type of improved hybrid hybrid type vehicle that does it or maybe one of the companies that's working on the hydrogen fuel cells will actually they'll actually be shifting more to hydrogen based fuel instead of a gasoline or diesel based fuel it's going to it's interesting the next five years is going to change how we have vehicles thank you so any other questions and I I think it would be useful go for it you said verbally what the on the North Amherst intersection just to have you write a little bit of more of a narrative of what you would do with that money as opposed to thorough design because I think people were on Pomeroy Lane people like the idea that the design of the specific is going to come after the discussions not preceded which buys people in so it is a big price tag and if we're not quite ready to have that it feels like that's an item that could potentially move one of the issues I don't know how much this is being propelled by a potential large development coming in up here and increasing the traffic problems and we don't know yet it's this thing called the eruptor and if we don't know yet how real that is although they're saying it's real and that would suddenly increase traffic through an intersection that's already problematic but again just something more on it that would ease people's fears rather than raise alarm bells that there's already been a decision on what to do I can do that there truly hasn't been a decision and the biggest piece of the cost will be is if we decide that we want to do another traffic study based on the change in the intersection we've made now we put one the new temporary light in do we want to study that do we want to gather data from that that would be something that we would spend part of that money on yeah no way would we spend $450,000 on it but that's the one that's the one thing that's out there that does need to be wrapped up the other issue is we gotta get rid of the the gas station who's gonna get rid of the gas station and this would probably part of this money and not all of it would go towards removing the gas station as well so there's prep work that can be this money can go to as well as just tidying things up and then talking to people about we put the new light in things seem to be working better they're working better than they did when there was just this type of light we've done a few other things those things have improved that would probably be the only thing we would do with this money until we actually get to the point where people have made some hard and fast decisions we're going with this type of intersection or this type of intersection and the new lights you had told us the new lights can count correct it can count cars, people, bicycles it can count cars it does cars really well we haven't purchased and installed the part that does the people and the bicycles yet okay because the students were on because of the pandemic and students really aren't moving around very much down there we kind of put that cost off okay okay thank you other questions seeing none I'm going to just quickly look to see whether we have no public attendees so since there are there's no one in the audience unless someone plans on phoning in I think we have completed tonight's agenda is that correct Sean so so again out there have we decided are we going to vote on minutes are we just are you just going to approve them people were comfortable with me approving them but I sent you this last set so you could see if there was anything missing if people would like to actually spend time during a meeting redoing minutes be happy to do that otherwise we can just keep this as a record and now that we have the recordings coming up it should be easier to capture I think we're trying to capture both the comments and answers that were given that goes beyond what we came up with the exhibit so I think that was a plan around minutes unless anyone would like to bring minutes onto agenda for a discussion I'm just looking around to see whether anyone is saying they want to make it as an agenda we certainly can next time we're we're posting the draft minutes so we won't be in the rears of having no minutes I don't see any though looking at everyone I think we're done for the evening and thank you all for staying with us to this late hour especially people who were coming from another meeting into this meeting or coming from a long week of meetings so we'll see you all next week thank you very much we are adjourned thank you