 pillow your civic forum and we're going to be discussing city council tonight as we do the march up to marches town meeting day and I've got a special one tonight normally I do just people individually and I already did district one individually because we have an open seat but I thought it would be more interesting to do districts two and three together where we have two incumbent council people and we could dig a little bit deeper because both of them have the experience of sitting in council and barring any sort of massive right in will be retained on the next city council I hope to my extreme left so to speak is Jack McCullough and sitting to my lesser left is Ashley Hill district three district two how you guys doing great thanks for having us living the dream a living the dream of having a job that pays very little meetings has you in other organizations sitting as the token person Jeff which boards do you sit on the I'm sitting on a couple right now I'm the city council representative to the housing task force which is a natural thing for me because I served on the housing task force and shared the housing task force for many many years and I'm also on the ADA committee which ADA being Americans with Disability Act and where the city has really made a big commitment to bring all the city facilities into compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act we just within the last year hired a consultant to to study all our facilities and and we got a report from them and the next step of course is figuring out how to fund all the all the changes that need to be done actually what are you on so I am currently the council rep for the Community Justice Center here in Montpelier and I know the CJC has worked really hard over the last year to put together some additional grant requests to do some more programming in terms of offering communities of support for individuals and families who are struggling here in town and we do also serve a number of other municipalities as sort of part of our work as a hub here in Washington County and I also started worked with the council to put together the social and economic justice committee so I serve as the council representative on that committee as well and we just got our charter for lack of a lack of a better word approved by the council so what is the charge of that committee so it's I couldn't quote I couldn't quote it from memory but it's really a committee that I I pushed hard to form with the council and this council is very receptive to that to to really start breaking down some of the structural oppression that people of color and and other folks who are not often able to be present in the room for a myriad of reasons to really make sure that every voice is represented in the work that we're doing here in city government in Montpelier you know politics is a bit of a luxury to have the the privilege and the ability to serve and I want to be mindful that you know those of us who who have the ability and the resources to be on the council you know that takes away time from family and that takes away time from work and I really want to make sure that that our decision-making is informed from all perspectives and not just those who can show up and speak at meetings but making sure that you know we have committees who are keeping up on the work that the council is doing and thinking about you know consequences unintended consequences impact in ways other than just a budget or you know a sort of very literal public policy response or issue communications every year the city council will gather together and they'll do a mission retreat yes and they'll set a set of goals that will shape that year's console agenda basically and every year communications comes up doesn't it yes indeed it well I think it does you know I've only been to one of these so far but yes it's it's an important important thing you know how do we get information out to the public how do we get communication input from the public and the city has done some big things that are happening or in the process of happening so that people can go to the city's webpage we've got this system called Invisio that enables us to see the status of a bunch of the initiatives that the city is working on now I have to tell you I don't know how a resident would go to the city's city's webpage to find it but I believe that that's part of it too I know they're working on metrics on that and had spoken about that and the idea that the city can kind of grab a handle first on the symbols like demographics and things like that but down the line you'll actually be able to see much more of what the city is doing yeah in Invisio I think that's the purpose behind having it yeah just a couple of last meeting or maybe two meetings ago we had a discussion of what what measures we were going to look at for this matrix of community performance yeah it's an sort of like a census for a peculiar census yeah I believe also if again you guys know I don't but I believe we're doing a survey a community survey of some sort could you explain it a little bit yeah so I think one of the things you know as my appeal your sort of looks forward and starts to plan we have some big projects in the works in terms of housing you know growing the number of units that we have here in town you know one of the things that the city I think has really been sort of trying to figure out is who do we want to be going forward and so Mayor Watson actually came came to the council with a list of indicators you know and it's still a fluid list we're still working on that but really what we're hoping is you know for folks who were interested or you know who who may have an opportunity arise to be here in Montpelier to live here to work here you know to raise a family here you know we really wanted one place where people could go to find that information and so the the city survey will really sort of do that it'll give the survey that went out will give us part of that information and then we've identified partners in the area who also collect data in terms of health and wellness and a myriad of other issues that we're hoping to sort of put all together into a very digestible consumable data document for for anybody who's interested or anyone who has questions or wants to know more about our area they'll be able to come and check that out it should be up on the city website once it's all been done then but the other thing that I'll mention is that when we're putting together the budget Bill Fraser the city manager said that what he would like to do is have some money in the budget so we can actually do a survey of the population send out questions you what what are they like and not like about the city what would they like where they like to see us go and and so the plan is to do one and then maybe you know over the next few years build up enough of a fun to do another one so we're not it's not something we do every year but over time we'll get a picture on benchmark what people want and what how they think the city is doing which brings us of course when we're talking about things that we need to the question of affordability in this time Jack you've worked for years in housing you've worked on the housing task force is Montpelier getting less affordable and as if it does seem less affordable is that creating a more a less a more a less inclusive Montpelier simply because it's not as affordable yes and yes I can tell tell you that very easily when I moved to the Montpelier in 1983 on a legal aid lawyer's salary I was able to buy a house for $35,000 which was about twice my salary at that time there is no way you could do that now we know that people who work work in the service sector even professional sectors having or having a hard time buying houses and we know that rent is is very very high we have a rental vacancy rate that's almost zero where to have a healthy rental market it should be in the neighborhood of five to six percent and rents of newly developed market rate housing are up in the close coming close to $2,000 a month I haven't seen any 2,000 but I certainly heard of rents 1,700-1,750 a month and so that's a serious problem it's not the kind of city that I think we want so anything is this let me back that off is this a Vermont issue is this a national issue how what kind of issue are we addressing or as a localized issue to Montpelier I think I think it's really playing out everywhere right now I mean there's been data for years about you know how many hours of minimum wage work it would take to live in any city we'll just we'll take a national level of start I mean the data has been clear for years I think I remember seeing it in 2012 when I was still in law school and you would have to even essence work to full-time minimum wage jobs to simply provide the bare necessities in in Boston at that time and that's that's not even San Francisco or New York City or you know any any other larger cities and Montpelier isn't immune to that you know I've I am I think I'm still the only renter on the council I believe so and you know when I first moved to Montpelier it took a long time to to find an apartment and you know it was a rough apartment at that you know there it was a great location but it needed a lot of work it was an older house and in terms of weatherization that you know that was was not something that had been prioritized and so my roommate at the time and I in essence lived in two rooms for the winter because we couldn't afford to to heat the place and so you know I am I am very attuned to to what that rental market looks like and and it is very very difficult right now for renters and you know I think the the sort of the push to buy houses is is something that myself for sure and a number of my peers you know aren't really in a place in life where we can entertain that you know $35,000 I spent double that for a year of law school and I'll be paying those student loans basically a mortgage forever you know that's a that's a mortgage that only dies when you die so you know I think that the that there is a very different you know world out there for for you know people my age and and even I would say you know people in their mid 40s and 50s and and you know particularly when you get on up to to folks who are relying on you know social security or or any sort of fixed income program there are not a lot of options in this town and the hard part is when you when you are living on a very fixed income you need access to food and transportation and the only places where you can find affordable rents that sort of will work with your your very tight budget are not in places that that offer those sort of services so we're working on that you know we've as anyone who's been around Montpelier knows just within the last couple of years five years whatever we've we've seen some great developments in the housing market we have the conversion of the upstairs of 56 Barry Street where the senior center is to two apartments we've there were other apartments further down Barry Street yes yes we have the French block after being vacant for 80 years now occupied by tenants who would have had difficulty affording somewhere else we've got one Taylor Street which is the transit center with 30 apartments upstairs that's in construction now there's talk of housing project to be developed by the Episcopal Church unclear whether that's going to happen and I can tell you one thing that we have on the city council agenda meeting for next week is a proposal that we heard about at the housing task force last night to to fund development of accessory dwelling units what are those enabling someone to either build a freestanding structure or divide their house into add an apartment to their home and and the city is being asked to submit a community development application to to move forward with with this it's going to be on a pilot pilot study working with the Vermont State Housing Authority and it's it's a great opportunity to see well what what can we do with people my age and older who are living in big houses and they don't need all the space in those big houses and so what can they do to enable other people to live in those houses take off some of the burden of being in 3,000 square foot house that you don't need and generate some income Jack are there any infill spaces left in this town and in core Montpelier that you could actually construct a house in if you wished it's pretty limited we the city community development office studied that I'm thinking maybe 10 years or so ago and the it's it's pretty limited what about now this is again opening up a can of worms that's been for 15 years what about savings pasture and what about Ellen Goldman's land off on Terra Street is there any movement whatsoever you know I would say I would say that the city is open to hearing you know thoughts and plans I don't I'm not aware of anything that's you know sort of a done deal I think the important thing to remember is that those are privately owned properties and so you know we've had a good working relationship over the years in terms of their profitability depends on zoning right which I think I think you know we address that we were very mindful when we did the zoning rewrite the last go around and I know that there were some issues that are still outstanding we've been meaning we've had them on the agenda a few times but weather has prohibited Mike from being able to join us and it's not really conversation we can have without him so I know that there are a few requests to change things that I think have pretty much unanimous support is my understanding in terms of just some minor tweaks to make to to certain zones and particular requirements that I'm fairly confident the council is very open to hearing but in terms of development in the works I'm not aware of any but I know it's it's an ongoing conversation and has been for a long time you make a good point and certainly in working with the housing task force for many years we've pushed to make it possible to have development on Sabin's pasture and that is included in the in the zoning ordinance we passed to enable that to happen it's it's within the TIF district I believe and we and it's actually what a TIF district is please I can try the basic concept it TIF stands for tax increment financing and and the concept is that you have an area where the city thinks is is right for development and if a parcel is developed within the within the TIF district the it requires and it requires city infrastructure to make it happen sewers roads water service that kind of thing the the the taxes that are generated by that property above the previous value of the assessed value of the property go to paying for for the cost of those infrastructure improvements that are needed to make the development work and that's what's playing so that's the tax increment in the downtown discussion of the parking garage yes yeah part of it yeah right but what I was going to say with because it is staying on Sabin's pasture pasture for just a moment you know we're part of part of it is owned by the Vermont College of Fine Arts I know they're interested in doing some development we know that we have an economic development plan that was developed a couple of years ago and housing is one of the most important parts of that because the lack of housing that people can move to was a real impediment to do economic development now we have the the multi-user path going going by that area it's I think the time is ripe to start working on it it's it was actually looking at trying to encourage housing on Sabin's pasture is one of the things that was part of our priorities that grew out of our City Council retreat last year and and I'm sure it's going to be continue to be high on our list in terms of of housing when we talk about development in our town it goes beyond that the Montpelier Economic Development Corporation what is that and how did that come about and what what what is their relationship to things like Sabin's pasture yeah so the MDC is a relatively new creation here in town it's been I want to say three years three years and what the MDC really focuses on doing is cultivating those sort of relationships that it takes to bring businesses to Montpelier you know I don't think I've been shy over you know the last two years on the council in terms of how Montpelier handles taxes on businesses but I think that the MDC really serves a very important function in terms of reaching out to businesses who you know we know are looking for places or you know looking for space or or looking to move and and really sort of trying to assess what their needs are looking to see how Montpelier can meet those needs and really be a liaison I think between the business community and the city while also working you know with Montpelier alive to make sure that that residents are sort of factored into that equation as well so the distillery would be one example it would be yeah of that distillery out on Berry Street yeah yeah you know I I think and I've felt this way for a long time and and I've been the persistent no vote on on every request to abate taxes for businesses because I well I it's a multifaceted reason I'm not I'm not opposed to businesses coming here I welcome businesses coming here but I think that there are better ways for the city to incentivize relocating to Montpelier than by you know to use a bit of a flippant term corporate welfare you know we all work hard here in Montpelier and we all pay our fair share in taxes and I think that every entity that utilizes resources and infrastructure and benefits from being here really needs to contribute their share and I know that the argument is well they bring people here they contribute in other ways but you know when residents are going to get their tax bill or you know when rent is going to go up when your lease renews because property taxes have gone up I think it's incumbent upon us as the fiduciary respond you know those who are in a position of fiduciary responsibility to to the city and to our community to ensure that that everyone who's benefiting from those services is also contributing to make sure that they continue to function I do think that the city does a lot of great work in terms of supporting infrastructure development so that businesses can come I know with Caledonia spirits the city put up and is still in the process of completing some of the work that needs to be done in terms of infrastructure to really get Caledonia spirits to you know to opening but I really I struggle with the notion you know that that residents property taxes are going to go up but yet businesses who who may or may not have a plan you know one of the tax abatements that was granted was to allow a business to rebuild a contractor to rebuild and and I appreciate the significance of that because it's going to create new office space but there was no definite tenant in mind you know and and certainly it wasn't the full tax abatement but nonetheless you know businesses tend to have more access to resources than than residents do in terms of you know the long-term cost of being here and I feel pretty strongly that you know as someone who works really hard to be able to afford to live here and I know that my my friends and my neighbors do they work equally as hard to be able to afford to be here and it really grinds my gears sometimes to think that that you know there are people who who are relying on the things that all of us are paying for but that aren't contributing in in the same economic way that that the rest of us are expected to you are the persistent no vote I am yes sometimes yes sometimes no I think sometimes yes I think we've I think since I've been on the council I think we've had two stack tax stabilization requests and one of them was this office building proposal that came before us that I thought the developer made a good case that that he came within the criteria set forth in the in a policy that the no vote and it's long long enough ago that I don't remember all the details but the no vote was was the timber homes company that's the new place out Elm Street and one of the criteria for granting tax stabilization is a determination that this wouldn't happen but for the tax stabilization and and the company came to us and they were very forthright that they love the city of Montpelier they really wanted to move there their employer employees wanted to be here and they were going to be here doing the project and have bringing their business to the town whether we gave them the tax stabilization agreement or not that's brutal and so and so I think it's great that they're they're going to be here I think that they're going to be a good asset to the city but based on that I just didn't see how we could justify giving them the stabilization and one other thing about that is that another thing we have on our agenda is to look at the tax stabilization policy to see how we can how we can refine it to make it more do more of what we want let me talk about the TIF district and ask a little bit about that if our core downtown a lot of our core downtown is in the TIF district then the improvements that are made in that downtown will not go into the general fund they'll go into the TIF fund from what I gather to pay for infrastructure in that neighborhood doesn't that put more stress on residents who are paying taxes if a major portion of our downtown its future is already locked away in a TIF so I it's a very technical question and I TIF it's it's a really complex I don't even really know what to describe it it's a it's sort of this this plan that was hatched as a means to spark economic development but also sort of allow cities a bit of breathing room if you will to to be able to support and sustain that infrastructure and you know I I was reading the newspapers was many months ago before my grandfather had passed away and there was a brilliant article written in in the paper in the the town I grew up in about TIF districts and and they've been talking a lot about this and there was actually a TIF district one town over from where I grew up that failed and there was a really great breakdown in the paper about sort of what a TIF district means and it does take city resources but it uses them in a in a very different way and so my understanding albeit it's I'm sure it's an oversimplification is that it it doesn't mean that up front the the the additional tax burden would fall on the taxpayers the caveat is to me that if for some reason the economic upstart doesn't generate the revenues projected that I see no other place for that burden to fall but on the taxpayers and you know I don't I don't understand the inner workings of of sort of the way that the that the taxes are allocated or you know any any of that but what I do know is that the goal is that those investments from the city will in fact be made up for with any revenue generation to the grand list and that in theory at some point in the future and admittedly it is not the short-term future it is the very long-term future that that that grand list growth will then go back to the city once the debts and obligations have been satisfied that the city accrued as a result of its infrastructure investments and I can answer the question pretty you know a couple of different ways I agree with everything that Ashley said one is that the payment the TIFT district does not drain money or reduce the revenue that's already coming to the to the city so it's not it's not causing people's taxes to go up the the crucial factor that that we heard from our consultants who are preparing the TIFT district and as as we were being being called on to vote on it was that if you throw a bunch of money at projects under the theory that if you build it they will come that's a recipe for failure and that might have been what happened in in the town that you're talking about if if you have are you talking about Newport as well no no I grew up in on the New Hampshire's he goes with my grandparents and so I grew up in Dover and this was in Rochester right but I'm saying Newport that was there was exactly what happened right well there was also fraud to an extreme degree but but the the idea of just like sending a miles worth of water and sewer lines hoping that someone will come along and build at the end of those lines that would be a foolish investment if we had the the only time we would ever actually go forward and say yes we're going to make this investment within the TIFT district is if we had a developer already there ready to go and proceed with with their development and of course it is true that it's it's a city bond where we'd be the the voters have to vote on it and once they vote on it they're committing to to pay the bond even if the revenues aren't aren't there from the development but you know prudence dictates that you do that you make sure you do the develop you know the developments there before you put the infrastructure in the ground infrastructure in the ground is a good place to start into three water breaks water main breaks within a matter of a month I think it wasn't it more like two weeks five five or six in a month it could have been it was significant I know there was a council hearing on that yes can you talk to the public tonight about the state of water and sewer in this city and whether there's a possible crisis underneath those streets so I I don't know that the word I would use the word crisis I do agree that we have a significant amount of work ahead of us you know I know how hard DPW is working to to deal with these as they're coming up I we also were presented and I believe it's all available on the city website now I think we got it at at the meeting really or emailed just before but DPW put together a very comprehensive explanation along with some data about the number of breaks both over the last few years and very recent and you know the reality of the situation is that our infrastructure is aging significantly and with the the drastic temperature increase in drops that's causing things to well there's one there's one more reality the one that was most visible was the one on Saturday downtown was full and from what I gather for man it was the fact that it was so slushy that the storm sewers were jammed up so had the storm sewers not been jammed up we wouldn't have had a flood downtown that was circumstantial in a sense but it was still a break a significant right and one of the things that's kind of surprising is that it's not necessarily the oldest pipes that have that have failed you know the out on Elm Street it was pipes from the 1970s which believe it or not are not the oldest water mains in the city and still pretty old and what the presentation we had from the public works director was that there was a period where the city was making water main using these water mains I think it's called high ductile steel and where they used to be cast iron right they used to be cast iron they went to this high ductile steel and and the issue is that there it's prone to corrosion in the clay soils that we have in Montpelier so so it's a problem where it seemed like it came all once this this last month we didn't really have we we're not above the the ongoing norm we're all we always have some water main leaks and and the city has to respond to them as as we can we also all well sort of but you can't anticipate where these are going to happen we don't know where they're going to happen but we also have a capital improvement plan to to address it by by replacing water mains on a schedule based on the best judgment of of where they need to be replaced you don't necessarily get there before there's a leak but it's not we are not and people should understand that we're not spending so much money on fixing water main breaks that we don't have enough money to to do the ongoing maintenance and replacement now I hope that I'm not going to misspeak on this I believe that you were in council when we started to put aside money to get to stable maintenance on the streets I think that it had been put in place the year before and so I I want to say I think the first budget cycle that I went through was really the first time where there were allocated dedicated funds to to for it I think $500,000 that is that is over time that is the the plan and I had raised this issue at council at the at the council meeting I had actually asked that the issue be on the agenda because I received so many notes from residents sort of about like what does this mean what is the city doing to respond to this you know one of the things and and I think Tom has raised this a number of times Tom being Tom McCartle city from our DPW director yeah we toured the water treatment plant not the water resource recovery plant but up on the hill where all of our drinking water is processed and one of the challenges that Tom talked about and I think it even came up this go around with one of the recent water main breaks was that a lot of the mains were laid before people really started keeping track of where the mains ran and and what was attached to what and so sometimes you've got DPW folks out there just trying to ascertain even where the break is because they might not have a complete map that was Northfield Street right because those pipes were laid back in the the early 1920s I think is is when that could be some of them date back to and and so a lot of records were lost over time and and so you've got folks out there on days where it is well below freezing actually walked into town the morning we had the the major break in downtown and part of it was the storm drains but the other part was it was cold oh wake old and it I mean it started to freeze within minutes and just sort of keeping up with that plus you've got more water flowing in and and so I think you know it's there's a lot of moving parts to it it's a very significant part of the work we need to do a significant new expense coming in the following years that we really not going to get federal money for because every city in town has this problem right I mean I don't know I don't know that I'd be comfortable even sort of betting on federal money of any sort of significance given the sort of uncertainty that that we're experiencing with the federal government alone you know I I do I I know that the city has a plan I I raise some concern about the sort of timeframe for that plan understanding that there is significant planning that has to go into this we saw that with the Northfield Street project that had been in the works for a long while getting contractors making sure that all of the materials are are in place and that you know residents that that we've communicated effectively to residents what will happen but you know emergencies happen and I think that that's one of the things that we need to start being more mindful of as we plan and budget because you know two major water main breaks like that in downtown Montpelier there were a couple businesses closed for days and and so that impacts not only obviously their interest but that also really impacts our small city that that hosts up to 20,000 people I think on any given day and you know that's a significant expense but another way to answer to look at it is that for some of the major big projects that we're talking about where there's a big big water main that needs work it's it's likely to be done as part of a major highway project and a lot of a lot of our main so our main roads are are eligible for state and federal transportation matches and so it makes sense to do that all at once you know you're doing the road you're doing the water well that was Elm Street and that was Northfield in theory yeah exactly right now I live next to Harrison which isn't federally funded and that one took a long time simply because the path to amplify on your point the pipe was going like this then all of a sudden the pipe zigzag across the street went like that no one knew that that would ever be the case right yep so one has to wonder how many Harrison streets there are sitting in this town yeah I think it's you know it is a significant I think it's a significant amount of work that's going to have to go into planning that and you know living on East state you know we've had a few of those major breaks where I was walking up the hill one afternoon over the summer and all of a sudden there is literally a water just shooting out of the middle of the street I've never seen anything like it before and you know those are those are the things where you know we I think Bill and Sue and city staff have have responded very quickly very efficiently you know all of that information was on Facebook as soon as you know within minutes really but but in terms of planning for that I I'm a little concerned that you know some of the more major arteries into town you know those aren't those aren't planned to be redone for a couple more years and some of those areas have experienced significant outages as a result of the water that's that's significant it is oh it definitely is you actually mentioned the the city water treatment plant I'll just say if anyone if you or anyone else has the opportunity to go out there and tour the plant it is well worth it there I learned a lot the operator of our of our city water plant is incredibly competent and committed dedicated to the work and that's really true across the board of the one of the things that I had a chance to do in early on in my year on the council so far is to visit a whole bunch of city facilities the public works garage the cemetery the water department and the fire department and across the board we have great people working for the city who are dedicated to providing great service for our residents and I just can never say enough about how dedicated and competent our employees are we're at our debt limit right now City Council sets a certain target for municipal debt and we've reached that limit at this point of where past consoles felt comfortable and they're borrowing what you're thinking on a recreation center because that would really extend that deficit significantly are there numbers that are being thrown around we received some preliminary numbers at our at our last meeting when we went through the presentation with the consultant firm that we had brought on to sort of do the the investigatory study on this to me those are the kinds of projects that government is is built to invest in I really believe that rec centers and as a kid who grew up you know that's where I went to summer camp because they had scholarships for low-income families and you know that was that was the option that's where you went and to me those investments those sort of infrastructure investments and I don't see those as just infrastructure investments I think those are social investments as well I think that those are the places where we need to invest and I is that a 500,000 dollar investment is that a million dollar investment keep going keep going yeah it depends on what we're looking at one of the things that our consultants did was look at a range of options from basically fixing up the rec center to where it can be used ADA standards and make it full functionality to bringing the second floor back able to be used for various activities all the way up to the idea of an indoor pool and which other people have talked about and there's a tremendous range from like a million to two million dollars up to 20 25 million would represent twice the city has anyone mentioned that well one of the part of this report was a survey of of Montpelier residents and when when people got to the point of saying you know what this putting in a indoor pool would cost you know 350 or $400 increase on the median property tax bill there was not a lot of support for that well and and I would also I mean they're you know they're still an increase I think no matter how we cut it there there would be some assumption of debt in order to either one retrofit the existing Berry Street facility or you know purchasing a new facility and and working with that you know I don't think there was any support on the council for a $25 million bond there was I think there was a lot of support expressed for looking at options in terms of restoring and repairing the Berry Street building which I don't I don't think the numbers came in at between one and four million dollars something like that two and five but a lot of that really depends on what the priorities are for that space you know I love the idea of having a pool but when what I see in terms of a property tax increase you know bill to a property owner of you know 350 to $400 in terms of rental increases that is significant with the model that they were using was a recreation center in New Hampshire where three or $400 on the property tax just simply gets the building built you still have to belong to that building and pay another two or 300 for your family so it seems like those piggybacked figures to actually use it when don't we have a pool up at first in fitness it's fairly close by and we have recreation equipment up at Planet Fitness for $10 a month that's all gonna be part of go ahead well I think I'm playing devil's apple right well and I think that those are certainly opportunities that are available to some folks but I'm not interested in building any more opportunities that are only available to some folks I want to start building opportunity for every single person in our community regardless of their economic situation regardless of their ability to drive or to find private transportation to get to places and and so to me really finding a place in town that works boy is there land sufficient for that well you know Jack was saying that that in terms of infill there really isn't a lot of empty land in town to construct some place new but I don't know that it has to be new construction necessarily I think that there are ways to partner for the city to partner with existing places so we've got this building that is very centrally located there's kids in and out of there after school every day you know I used to live right next door to the rec center it's busy on the weekends you know and that to me is really the lifeblood of what Montpelier is to the young people that are here and to to frankly anybody who wants to do those things and it's proximate to the other end of the spectrum right to the senior center yeah and you know so we have options I don't I don't see this as we have to bond 25 million and get everything we want or we have to just stick with the building on Berry Street and invest in that I really see this as an opportunity for the city to want to explore public transportation what is the city going to do how if we as a community decide that the Berry Street facility isn't where we want to invest okay I can respect that but I want to know what the plan is to make sure that every single person who can access Berry Street is going to be able to access whatever alternative the city comes up is this a multi year planning project absolutely yes we're most definitely yeah we're gonna hear no no decisions have been made the most important thing that people need to understand is no decisions have been made and we are expecting people to to come out and tell us what what their views are and what they're willing to pay for you know because we've I think we've all heard from the people who want the indoor pool and those who are in that group are very very enthusiastic about what they want but that's one segment of the population we want to hear from well the survey tells you something it sure I haven't seen the survey but the survey was a scientific survey from what I gather and it'll be on if it's not already it'll be on the city's webpage well and I think too though that one of the important pieces is you know we hear from the people who can show up and those are really important voices to to hear from in terms of how we are going to plan our work but I think we also need to be very proactive about sort of asking we need to put ourselves out there as city officials and and as city government to sort of make sure that that we're not only hearing from people who are putting themselves out because the work that we do as a city in the services that we offer impact every single person here whether they can show up to our meetings or whether they you know are are invited to come out to another thing but I think there are great opportunities for people who are working in those in those you know working at the rec center for example like hey why don't you mind taking this really quick survey or you know really getting a feel for the people who are using this space who might not be the ones who are able to show up at meetings or or may have a different perception about what the needs are rather than just inviting those who who can come in or choose to come in to share their perspective actually you just mentioned something that I think is very important it's a limited segment of the population who actually come out to meetings and talk to us about what they want one of the things that we put in the budget this year for the first time was some funding for for child care people who come to city council meetings for public meetings and it's we'll see how it how it goes but it's a recognition that there are you know if if you're a single parent and you've got there are barriers couple of kids it makes it harder to get out and be heard at meetings I'm gonna frame this gently for the elephant in the room of the parking garage and we waited this long to talk about it a behemoth why did we end up with a 13th hour fight why did we end up with after this thing went before the voters it's still being fought was that a fault in the process or is that just land policy and regulation in Vermont invites fights you know I'm everybody knows how I voted on the parking garage did you vote on the park I voted no why I opposed it and it's not to say that I oppose the the creation of a parking garage I personally and sort of in my capacity as a representative for a significant number of folks here in Montpelier felt like this project was not the project that the city needed to shoulder as part of the TIF district to me you know do we have a need for parking absolutely we absolutely do but the the question to me is bigger than that and one I am I am all about transparency in the decision making process and you know there were meetings and the city put put out the list of meetings that that occurred on this topic I personally would have preferred you know starting these meetings and the sort of proposal process much much sooner I think the other piece here is that the the private entity so the the capital Plaza you know they're a business they are not a city entity they're not subject to open meeting laws and all of those other things that that government is and that's one of the things to me that I really struggle with about public-private partnerships is that there's there is a significant need for transparency in government but business partners don't share that same requirement and a change like this in downtown Montpelier is major it it will change the the way that that you see your community and you know one of the things that I think could have been handled better by all of us it was the sort of process by which all of a sudden the the plans changed and the designs changed and to me I want I want public input on all of those things so that we reach a place so that we get to a yes by having lots of different opinions at the table and people weighing in I want Jack to weigh in because Jack voted yes I voted yes I to answer your previous question is this just the nature of land policy in Vermont I think it largely is I think we see a lot of circumstances where the decision is made and then all the there it's always subject to challenge and you know that's a healthy part of our democracy that people can challenge decisions that their government is making I voted yes because in my judgment and this goes back for many years I've lived here since 1983 and for that entire time people have been talking about how important how much we need more parking in in downtown as recent as far back as night as 2015 where we the city had a study for what was needed for economic development in the center of city top of the list was another hotel and a parking structure basically right where they're going now and there are suggestions well maybe it should go somewhere else I don't think those are were feasible suggestions so what I see coming out of this is economic development will have people coming into the city and parking their cars in the parking garage and leaving them there and spending their money in the restaurants and stores downtown was there a process question that that led up perhaps as as he was indicating that led to a group of people being feeling somewhat excluded it's hard for me to say it hard for me to endorse that idea because the the people who are challenging the decision were not at our meetings saying I don't think we're going in the right direction or or staying it should be fixed or should be stopped we didn't we didn't hear that except from a pretty small handful of people during the meetings that were that were held and there were a lot of meetings you know the city has been posting the count of the meetings and public hearings and well I guess one thing that I that that was not clear to me and I'm a relatively well informed member of our community and and you know on the council you know I remember when the the big ribbon-cutting ceremony happened at the Capitol Plaza and the governor was there and you know the the Bashara family spoke about what this would mean for Montpelier there was no and I scoured all of the press releases and all of the news coverage I wasn't able to attend said to work but there was nothing in there that that said the expectation was that that the city would be building the parking garage and that the Bashara family would be building the hotel and you know one of the things that I really struggle with is the city tried the city in I think is 2013 came forward with a plan you know saying we need another hotel here and the Bashara is lobbied hard against that and now it's I think that they announced in 2017 that that enough you know that another hotel was coming and then they would own it and when asked about that the answer was well who better than than us to own it and you know and I appreciate from a business standpoint that answer because you know that businesses need to make money to survive and to continue to do what they do but I also feel like there is a lot of value in in starting those community conversations at the outset you know sort of okay the city has decided that this is what we're going to do and you know I'm a litigator by day so I dig my heels in and Jack you're a lawyer you know how it goes you know when you've got your position and and you know you are you are in your role as an advocate you know you figure out a way to to get to some place and present your case and I would never stick you guys with this because you're two lawyers and I'm not late for is it too late for the two sides to mediate something reasonable I would I would love to see some conversations happen I've engaged in conversations with some of the opponents I would I would love to see a way to come out of this so that the parking garage can be built because I think it's going to benefit the city but if there are suggestions that that other people have to to make it more congenial to their view of downtown I think I think the council would be open to trying to figure that out well I would I really welcome you guys and thank you for being here tonight both of you are running on a post so you don't have to be here talking I don't know about that I mean elections are won and lost by literally one vote but I do thank you and and I think we're well represented in both district two and district three by having you both on console well thank you for having us I want to say one more thing and that's get out and vote yes know that all of the races are not contested there was one thing that I didn't bring up that I want to spend two more minutes and I'm sorry it's on me the charter change yes what would one of which one the new one the the one that deals with energy sure would one of you to explain that very quickly that's on me sorry yeah so the proposal on the ballot is language that we would take to the legislature that would allow the city to explore creating energy efficiency standards I know that there was an article a piece on CAX where a lot of it sounded as though that was sort of a done deal but I this to me is really the beginning of that conversation this simply gives the city the ability to explore the drafting of ordinances if the legislature approves the charter change the city is looking for the authority from the voters to request that the legislature accept the proposal to amend the charter and then what would happen is a long series of community conversations to talk about what those requirements could look like how they should be structured if we should even structure them I think that opens the conversation opens the conversation and that's a public process again one of the things that I think is is pretty important Kate Stevenson from the energy committee had a post in front porch forum today I think and she said look we have a net zero goal and if you're if you're gonna set a goal and then hope to get to it you're gonna need to start taking some steps in that direction and addressing the ability of to create energy efficiency standards is one of the things that we need to start moving on if we're gonna get that you're talking about municipal energy efficiency standards well and I think in community community yeah privately owned property and developments new developments so communications transfer absolutely central when you're talking about people's own property yeah and that's something I know that the city's been working on and I think things have improved exponentially even in my time on the council and I think in the world that we live in it's a lot easier to get information out it's just a matter for me of making sure that people are consuming that information and I think a lot of that means that we're gonna have to retool our approach to how we're how we're talking about issues and how we're you know publicizing that these are the things that are you know that the council is taking up and you know we've we've asked for an opinion about sort of what an electronic message board could could look like you know in conjunction with public meeting laws and things like that because I really do I like Richard said you know voting is literally the most important thing that you can do and you know that's that's one way one way for us to sort of get the pulse of our community you know Jack and I and and every other member of the council we're engaged you know we hear from folks all the time we do our best to keep up with emails but there are so many some days and you know it's really hard for us to to keep up with all of that and and then you know on top of that it's it's trying to keep on top of of what's next and and how people are interacting with us we got to be better about it so if this charter change were to be accepted by the voters it would go on to the council's goals well we would in order we are it we already have a goal of this net zero it's achieving energy so this would be a ways to to get to that goal if the legislature itself approved so it's not it's even if the voters vote yay and the legislature has to approve it because we're a charter town correct so any charter change for municipality has to go through the legislature and you know that it could be an uphill battle there you know it's never really a done deal I think until that that last vote in the legislature's cast you know so so this is the starting point that we are literally at like point a1 with having this on the well I would say a1 was getting you know the council to approve it and and warning it on the ballot step 2 will be the election step a2 and then you know we'll see where it goes from there but we already have some charter changes that have been passed by the voters that are waiting in the legislature and and there's some some important important things we've got the plastic bag ban which was not one of the not on the list but but but the other thing is the is the non-citizen voting in municipal elections and and so the legislature is going to decide whether to approve those now after a false ending and say thank you so much for watching this watch all the other ones the one with Jim Murphy talking about the school budget is a very good show the one with Anne Watson talking about the city budget every one of these is good get on on town meeting day and do vote because your vote does mean something but more get into the habit of voting because that's the lifeblood of our democracy on every level thank you for watching