 Aloha, and good morning. I am Mark Shklav, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea. Today our program is titled A Tale of Two Citizenships, and my guest is Ray Tsuchiyama. Ray and I became friends in Hawaii in the 80s and the 90s, and then he disappeared from our islands for about 20 years. During that time, Ray worked in Japan. He's now back in Hawaii, and I'm very happy to have him with me today. Ray and I will discuss dual citizenship, an interesting subject that seems to come into the news every so often, most recently during the U.S. presidential election. And as in many of the programs that I have hosted on Law Across the Sea, there's a personal angle to this discussion, which will be unveiled as we progress, I think. Welcome, Ray. Good to see you. Good to see you again. First of all, what is dual citizenship? Well, I'll go to a document that I have, my passport of the United States of America. And through the passport, I show it around the world that I'm a citizen of the United States of America, wherever I go. And that people should kind of give me all kinds of benefits in the U.S. and rights. But in the passport on number 14, there's a section on dual citizens. It says a person who has the citizenship of more than one country at the same time is considered a dual citizen. A dual citizen may be subject to the laws of the other country that considers that person its citizen while in that country's jurisdiction, including conscription for military service. So the passport says you cannot be a dual citizen. It just says it defines a dual citizen and that just be aware of issues while you live in another country because you may be in the army of another country and that's maybe scary or something may happen to you. But it doesn't deny the fact that dual citizenship exists. In other words, it's a little bit vague and ambiguous in a way. It says this may happen. That's correct. And so this whole topic of dual citizenship is ambiguous and murky because there is no set of international laws. There's never been a convention that really sets forth for all the signatories. There have been people and countries getting together and discussing it but they're not signatories to some convention, like the Vienna convention, that kind of protected diplomats so they won't be killed by another country. So that area is still ambiguous. So in other words, you're kind of on your own if you are a citizen of two countries. Tell me, how do you become a citizen of two countries? How does that work? There's about three or four ways. One that you are born in a country. But that doesn't automatically make you a citizen. You have to be a born in a country that states that if you're born in that country, you get the citizenship of that country. That's number one. Like the U.S. or Canada. So you'd be a citizen of that country. That's correct. And that there are ways through parents, through one parent or two parents. But how do you become a dual? If you're born in one country, you might be considered a citizen of that country. That's right. Well, where does the dual? Where does the other country come in? Well, that you have a parent who is an Italian parent and another parent who's Swiss. So you get two nationalities through your mother and father, for example. And that you were born in the U.S., therefore, you get American citizenship also. And so those other two countries, they may say you are a citizen of that country just because of your parents. That's correct. That's correct. But again, it's a murky area because there's some countries that allow you to be a dual citizen. Others that explicitly say dual citizenship is not allowed, but they don't enforce that. Okay? So there are other countries that say you can be a dual citizen of these countries, and there's a list. But you can be a dual citizen of other countries. Okay. All right. So it is murky in a way, and there are other countries that say, going back to dual citizens, that if you have another passport, like Australia or Israel or some countries, that you cannot run for office of that country because you hold another passport or vote in a country. Okay. So a dual citizenship is somebody that was somehow gets born. Right. Right. And then through fate is born in a certain country, may be considered a citizen of that country, and then has a parent that may be a citizenship of another country. And so you have dual or maybe more than dual. Right. So going back to birth, the fact that I was born in Japan at the time of my birth, and my mother was a Japanese citizen at the time of my birth, had no bearing on me getting receiving Japanese citizenship. Because- Are you a Japanese citizen? No. Okay. And when you were born in Japan- Yes. Your mother was Japanese. Right. At the time of my birth, and I know she was there at the time, but the loss of Japan at that time was that it was through the father. Right. And your father was- Was a U.S. citizen. But he was a dual citizen until the war. But because of the World War II, you couldn't be in the U.S. Army and be a citizen of another enemy country. He renounced Japanese citizenship, and he was of course crossed out in Japan. And so he was in the U.S. Army for 20 years and he fought and was a loyal citizen. But again, the idea of matrilineal or patrilineal comes into play. And there are some countries like Israel and others that bestow citizenship only through the mother. Okay. Yeah. Because of course- I know biologically- You know who your mother is. I see. Who knows? Unless there's a DNA test, who your father is back then. It's interesting. But in Confucian countries, like South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, many countries in the East Asia, they think the same, therefore unfortunately it's a male-dominated system. Okay. Now, okay. So you're a person who is a citizen of two countries. Let's just take, for example, I'm a citizen of the United States plus another country. Recently in the news, something's come up about this, especially during the presidential election time. What was all that about? Well, the last presidential election was, of course, Ted Cruz, who was born in Canada of two parents who are U.S. citizens. And that the Constitution said that you had to be a natural born citizen. And Donald Trump, President Trump, made a big deal out of that. I recall that. Yeah. But Ted Cruz said he renounced Canadian citizenship in 2013, but he was born in Canada. And this is still a very kind of murky area for what happens if he became president, and this became an issue, and it's forced him out of office. Yeah. Well, President Trump also mentioned this about Obama, not being born in the United States. But in this case, if you were born in Canada, I always thought you had to be born in the United States to become president. And that was what President Trump was saying about Obama. He wasn't born in the United States, so he couldn't become president. But in this case, you have Cruz was a dual citizen because his parents were both U.S. and U.S. grants citizenship to children of U.S. citizens. That's correct. But he was born in Canada, so he was considered a dual citizen of Canada also. Well... Can he become president? Let's say... But again, that only is about presidential politics, also in the U.S. And say state politics, right? There was a case in California where Arnold Schwarzenegger was a U.S. citizen naturalized later in life, took it upon himself to take the oath of being naturalized, which states explicitly that you must reject any kinds of ties to princes, potentates, and other states. It's in there. But he was also a citizen of Austria. And he maintained that. He maintained that. And nobody cared, because there's no really law at the state level that you have to renounce other citizenship. And you go to other countries, for example, Japan. There was one or two, at least, prime ministers of Japan since World War II, who were born in China or Nigeria. But that was part of the Japanese Empire at that point, but it was outside Japan. But it was part of the empire of Japan. But that didn't mean anything to the Japanese. And there was a case in Germany of a minister who had U.K. and German citizenship. He is a minister of the Federal Republic of Germany. So laws in other countries, of course, are quite different. However, in Japan, there was a case with opposition party, Democratic party, Renho Murata. She's very popular right now. Yes, but she was originally a Taiwan citizen through her father and got Japanese citizenship after naturalization. And she held on to Taiwan citizenship until recently. And she renounced that. And now she's only a Japanese citizen. Right. There is a biblical phrase that you can't serve two masters that I've read and been reminded of many times, which seems to come up a lot with respect to this dual citizenship idea or concept. I think what Donald Trump was emphasizing when he talked about Cruz, and I think it had some effect on him. I think it did help his contest against Ted Cruz. And are there other politicians in the United States that have this same type of issue that could arise or has come up? But again, it's about presidential politics. And it's highly probable that there are Mexican American politicians in the Texas, you know, Arizona, New Mexico, Southern California that may have Mexican citizenship also. From the parents? From the parents or from being born in Mexico. But it's never been a huge issue, but it's a very complex issue because there are hundreds of thousands of probably Irish citizens who are also dual citizens in the U.S. And I don't want to delve into this a lot, but you see, it depends on what country you also have a dual citizenship. Several weeks ago, we had St. Patrick's Day. We had Irish flags. We had, you know, everybody was proud to be Irish and so forth. But imagine, you know, and Columbus Day, which is Italian Americans, you know, which was our enemy during World War II, but it's okay now. But imagine if one of our top senators or representatives who was of Japanese descent participating in the Japanese Foundation Day, Constitution Day, and so forth, and waving the Japanese flag, it is not culturally acceptable that much, still in America. It also kind of is a psychological barrier to those folks being elected, I think, when it's brought up and thrown at them. And I want to go back, and after our break, talk a little bit about your dad and what happened in World War II, and with respect to his dual citizenship. Okay? All right. Thank you. Looking to energize your Friday afternoon? Tune in to Stand the Energy Man at 12 noon. Aloha Friday here on Big Tech Hoyt. Hi, I'm Tim Apachella. I'm the host of Moving Hawaii Forward, a show dedicated to transportation issues and traffic issues here on Oahu. Join us every other Tuesday at 12 noon, and as we discuss how we try to solve our traffic headaches, not to include just the rail, but transit and carpooling and everything in between. So join us every other Tuesday, Moving Hawaii Forward. Thank you. Thank you for watching Think Tech. I'm Grace Chang, the new host for Global Connections. You can find me here live every Thursday at 1 p.m., where we'll be talking to people around the islands or visiting the islands who are connected in various aspects of global affairs. So please tune in, and Aloha, and thanks for watching. All right. We are back with Ray Tsuchiyama talking about dual citizenship. And this topic has really, Ray, been the topic that we've talked about maybe thousands of years. You can't serve two masters, and now, through World War II, this came up. It seems to come up when people are fighting with each other, doesn't it? You're in war or elections. What happened to your dad? Tell me a little bit about that. I want to talk to him just in a second, but when you say history, if you go back to the annals of American law in 1795, there was a case of Talbert v. Janssen that the Supreme Court weighed in, and they decided that you could have dual citizenship, and this person had French and American citizenship. During the War of 1812, it was all about dual citizenship because the British came in and took American satyrs whom they believed were permanent British subjects, since they were originally British subjects today. And there are several countries out there, including Iran and Thailand, and another one that does not allow you to renounce citizenship. This goes on forever and ever. And so you're correct that dual citizenship came about as an issue during the start of World War I. And in fact, even in Hawaii, there was a German-American family that ran a company called Hackfelds. They were accused of being German sympathizers, and they held dual citizenship. And they renounced German citizenship, changed their name, their company to American factors. And they changed the name of their store to Liberty House. You see? You're exactly right. And of course, it didn't affect Japanese immigrants in Hawaii because Japan was an ally during World War I. And then right at the time of World War I, my father was born, 1915, in, on Maui in Kauhaui. So he was a U.S. citizen by birth. And his parents were? Japanese immigrants. So they held Japanese passports. Working on Maui. And sugar plantation. Sugar. They came from Kumamoto Prefecture. At the age of four, though, he was sent back to Japan to be educated. And he didn't come back to Maui until he, well, my grandfather passed away in an accident. So he came back and graduated from Maui High School, class of 37. But he had to learn English again. And he was technically a dual citizen because he was in the Koseki or a family register back in Japan. In Japan? Yes, next grade. But he was born in the U.S. What happened? So two came about and all of a sudden, because you're a dual citizen, you couldn't not be an enemy and walk around and be part of the U.S. army. You're absolutely right. So he renounced Japanese citizenship. And in Japan they crossed them out. And that's on the family register? Yes, it's crossed out. I've gotten a copy about 20 years ago. What happens with him is that his draft card changes from 1A, which is eligible for the draft immediately, is healthy and everything, to enemy alien, ineligible for the draft overnight. Although he was born in Waikomaui, a territory of Hawaii, which is part of the United States. And he was interned in Arkansas. Oh, really? Yeah. And then after a while he said it was really great meeting other Japanese speakers. He was young and had three square meters a day. But he got bored. So you have to think of a young man of that time. And so he volunteered for the army and then was in Camp Shelby, Mississippi for basic training. Amazing. There is the campus of Southern Mississippi, which was not integrated until the mid-60s. And then he went to Europe. Isn't it funny? Yeah. It's very ironic. Things about citizenship. Because African Americans were also U.S. citizens who were supposed to have 100% equality with all people in the U.S. Sometimes words make a difference, huh? Yeah, it's very ironic. What goes on in people's minds make a difference. So he went to Europe, came back, and during the Korean War he was back in Japan and I was born in Japan. So that's how I am. But your father was American. Yes. Your mother was Japanese, as you mentioned. Japan doesn't say if you're born here you're Japanese. At the time of my birth. What happens though, by the 70s and 80s there were a growing number of Japanese women marrying non-Japanese men. They couldn't bestow citizenship on their children. So the laws changed so that a mother could bestow citizenship on their children. So that was a big change. All right. Well, since I know this, how does that affect you and your family? My daughter was born in Honolulu. So she's a U.S. citizen and plus she's a U.S. citizen through me, a U.S. citizen. She couldn't have been born anywhere in the world. But she's a U.S. citizen through birth. But through her mother, who is a Japanese citizen, she became a Japanese citizen simultaneously. So that's just because of her mom? Yes. And she's a dual citizen of Japan and the United States? My daughter, yes. And how did the countries look at that type of situation? Not talking about your daughter specifically, but just in general. Now, the majority of dual citizens are through birth. That their Japanese parents were living in Los Angeles, Honolulu, San Francisco, New York. They happened to be there and their child was born automatically they're a U.S. citizen. So that's the majority of cases like that. And so they go back to Japan and have a U.S. passport for the future. And they, of course, have to file taxes. In the United States? No, outside U.S. Oh, okay. Well, we'll get that to a moment. So what happens to my daughter? Well, nothing really happens to my daughter. She has a Japanese passport and a U.S. passport. She enters Japan on a Japanese passport. She can stay there forever until she dies because she needs no visa, right? And then she comes to the U.S. with a U.S. passport. She can live here forever until she dies because she's a citizen. So that automatically travel residence is easier, right? But the people who are U.S. citizens like Boris Johnson, he was the current foreign minister. Yeah, foreign minister of the United Kingdom who was born in New York. He left New York. He was three years old. But he had to file taxes all during that time because he's a U.S. citizen. In the U.S.? No, no, no. Throughout the world. See, you never lived abroad as a U.S. citizen. But U.S. tax law is very onerous to expatriates. When you live, you don't realize this until you live abroad. And then you live in a country where there's a tax regime and then you have to file and if you have U.S. taxes, then you have to pay the balance to the U.S. government. Citizens of almost all European countries, Australia, Canada, pay nothing. No taxes on income sourced abroad, nothing. If they live abroad 300 days a year or whatever for a year. But Americans do. They have to file. Okay, so that may be a reason why you won't want to be an American citizen. That's correct. So there's been cases of Tina Turner was won recently in Switzerland. There's people, Mark Mobius, who had a hedge fund for many years. He researched that he had one grandfather who was a German citizen. He could return to Germany and get a German passport and so forth. So you're right. So that's why so many people renounce because of taxes. Because they're living abroad. So the tax issue comes up. If I'm a U.S. citizen, no matter where I live, I'm going to have to pay taxes to the U.S. And I think, wow, I don't want to do this. I want to just get rid of that and become a citizen of the other country where I belong. That's correct. So it's mostly those people who become a citizen and through their naturalization, through their spouse, or that they were born there, or the law of return for Germany, Israel, some countries. And it's very easy if you can prove that. And so that's what happens. Now, tell me, is there anything else that happens if you're a dual citizen? Well, there are, in sports, it's an issue. I'll give you an example. Right now, six or seven of the American or U.S. soccer team are dual citizens. They're mostly German. But they're good soccer players. They're terrific. They're terrific. But one is from Iceland, and he hasn't been in the U.S. since he was three years old. He was born in the U.S. But the others were born to German mothers and U.S. servicemen in Germany. They've never been to America. They don't speak English. But they're great soccer players, and they hold a U.S. passport. And there's another case of Naomi Osaka. Her father's Haitian, her mother, is Japanese. She is a Japanese citizen in the U.S., but she represents Japan in tennis tournaments. She does not speak Japanese. Mashu Baker won the gold medal for Japan in judo. He's a dual citizen. And then he chose Japan to represent. You see? You see what I mean? And there are others like runners or whatever that if you're on, there's a runner who had U.S.-Japan citizenship, but she wasn't good enough for the U.S. team, but she made it for the Japanese running team. So there may be some occasions when we don't care whether you're a dual citizen, as long as we win. Well, human nature tells us sometimes we care, but other times if we're winning, it's okay. But dual citizenship also, now I'm just talking about U.S. living abroad, during the earthquake. There were, the U.S. Embassy said we'll provide a free passage for you to get out of Japan. To Americans. Yeah, through U.S. citizens only. Suppose there was a terrible calamity in Hawaii, and a ship came to take away Japanese citizens back to Japan. My daughter would fit in that boat. Yeah. I won't. She can take me. That's great. But you see how, you don't think about it, it's like you're a naval. If it gets infected, you think about it, or there's hot water in you, oh, it's a good feeling, but you don't think about your naval. And most people who have dual citizenship or multiple citizenship don't really think about it until something really good or really bad happens. Example, if you have an Irish passport or a Canadian or Australian, the university's there top notch. You pay nothing. You send your children. In Ireland. Yeah, Ireland. Trinity College. University top, you pay nothing. Look, with the time we have left, why do we need duals? I mean, why can't we all just live together in peace and harmony in the world? What is your advice with respect to dual? What would you tell your family? I love my U.S. passport. If Japan came to me tomorrow and said they wanted me to do this, I'll think about it, but they've never come to me and said, Ray, we want you as a Japanese. I don't really care. I'm really comfortable. I love being an American. But you see, for some people, they have advantages, but there's some disadvantages also, military conscription. If you're a citizen of South Korea, Germany, Singapore, or Taiwan, if you're male, you have to report for service if you have a passport. But the world citizenship idea, Gary Davis, in the 50s and 60s traveled around the world with a world passport, but it's an idea that never came about. Well, look, Ray, thank you. This is a topic we can talk about and probably will again. Thank you very much for being my guest today. Good to see you. Thank you so much, Mark. Thank you.