 Stanford University. Well, I think we're ready to go ahead and get started for this session. So if you could all take your seats. So I'm going to be your moderator today. So I am Sally Benson. I am a professor of energy, science, and engineering here at Stanford University. And I think quite a few of you know, but I was on leave for the last two years. I was working in Washington DC at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. And I had the amazing opportunity to be present while so much of the pioneering and game changing legislation was passed, the Inflation Reduction Act, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which together provide about half a trillion dollars to accelerate the energy transition. And it touches on all things, everything from solar panels and wind turbines and offshore wind to battery storage for vehicles and for grid storage and heat pumps and carbon capture. It really is a tremendously inclusive approach. And really this set of investments set the stage for an unprecedented decade of climate action. And I think that universities have an absolutely critical role to play in this. And if you think about what we're trying to do, that we are really undertaking an epic challenge globally to transform the energy system on the time scale of years. I don't think we can even really measure this in decades. And if you think about this, that it took us about a century and a half to build the incredible energy system that we have today. And now we're asking for really, really rapid change. And I think as we examined the energy system, that we realized that it wasn't just carbon that we needed to do work on, that as we look carefully, we identified inequities in terms of pollution burdens, in terms of access to the highest quality energy services, equity issues, regarded to access to new energy technologies that can be more affordable. At the same time, we recognized that resilience was more important than ever, partially punctuated by the real challenges associated with wildfires. But particularly in light of the fact that today about 20% of the energy we use comes from electricity. The end use energy is directly from electricity. As we move into the future, we can anticipate much more. 50, 60, 70, maybe even for some people, 100% of the energy we use will come from electricity. So reliability and resilience and all of that are really paramount. And at the same time, we realized that affordability of energy and energy services is really key. And that there are many people living in this country and around the world where the basic energy services are not affordable. So as we undertake this transition, keeping energy costs low or driving down costs is going to be so important. So we have a huge order ahead of us. And today, we have an absolutely fantastic panel to explore the question of how can universities best contribute to federal goals for decarbonization, resilience, affordability, and energy justice. So what we're going to do, a little run of show. So each of the panelists will quickly introduce themselves. They will say what organization they're from. Talk a little bit about their role in the energy transition and maybe a highlight of what they're excited about. So we'll do a brief round of that. Then we'll go into a panel discussion. We have a set of questions that we'll go through. And then we'll reserve the last part of this program for questions from you all. So that's the plan. So let's go ahead and get started and Tracy, could you introduce yourself? Certainly. So good morning, everybody. I'm Tracy LeBeau. I am administrator and CEO for Western Area Power Administration. For those of you who aren't totally familiar with us, we're a wholesale utility. But that's also a part of the Department of Energy. But like a lot of utilities, we solely rely on our rate payers and our customers to pay for what we do every day. I'm also a very proud member of the NERD Nation and also a proud member of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe of South Dakota. I come from an area and a community that significantly played a part in hydroelectricity development in the West. A lot of the lands that were inundated in the Dakotas along the Missouri River were not just even our ancestral lands, those were that lands that we were actively producing livestock, cattle ranching, agriculture, and a lot of its underwater right now. And so just an interesting perspective I can maybe bring to the conversation. So I think here I am about two generations later ahead of the power market administration that markets power from a lot of these hydroelectricity plants, and so like plot twist. So it's been very interesting. But I'm very proud of what we do. We own and operate about 17,000 miles of high voltage transmission through 15 Western states. As our name denotes, we market power from those dams. We market power from 57 dams throughout those 15 states. Our nameplate capacity, if we were to market all that, is about 10,000 megawatts. And we operate three balancing authorities. And I also just want to give a quick shout out. We were so fortunate this year to have some Schultz scholars last year here from Stanford work for our organization for this summer, did some really, really helpful work on wildfire mitigation and modeling, as well as asset management, modeling, and risk analysis. So thank you to Anna Clark and to Hugo. I know Hugo's in the audience today. I think just they asked us to talk real quickly about kind of the interesting, innovative things we're doing. The two that I could talk about real quick is that it's quite innovative. We recently installed geomagnetically induced current monitors as a proof of concept at two of our substations in the Dakotas. It act as an early warning system for geomagnetic disturbance and situational awareness. Those worked out very well. They were actually, this is one of the most active solar areas, active solar seasons, solar cycles for the last 11 years. So in addition to be concerned about drought and weather, terrestrially, we're also watching it extra terrestrially. I thought it was very cool. We did have some events that tripped and let us know right away that was going on before even our Southwest Power Pool did. So really interesting work that we're doing. I just wanted to share that with you guys today. Jean. Great. Thanks. Yep, Jean. Hi everyone. Jean Rod, for those of you who don't know me, I'm Jean Rodriguez. You will regret the day you met me because I am chatty, talky, and very interested in what you're doing. I'm here as a representative from the Department of Energy. My official title is that I am the Assistant Secretary of Energy for the Office of Electricity. That's a really long title for any business card. But what it really comes down to is the Office of Electricity focuses on three things, four, four effects. Thing number one is all the research, development, and demonstration funded by the Department of Energy using taxpayer dollars to help make the infrastructure, the poles, the wires, the components, the systems, the infrastructure out there, 21st century infrastructure so that we can actually achieve what Sally's talking about. But it's not just about things you can see and kick. The second element of the Office of Electricity focuses on everything to do with, we call it controls and communications, but that goes all the way from where power is generated through the transmission in organizations like Tracey's down through distribution into the homes and businesses where people operate. Because that is a key part, a key part, not just of understanding but being able to make full some use of a transformation in the energy system. And finally, we have a very muscular effort in our shop to advance grid scale energy storage so that we can quit having people wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth about, oh, we're getting to really high penetrations of renewable energy. And you know renewable energy, Dan, it's intermittent resource. The wind doesn't shine all the time. The wind doesn't blow. Well, grid scale storage with breakthroughs that we can accomplish right here in the United States with manufacturing and jobs created right here in the United States takes that argument completely off the table. So I told you, those are the three areas we focus on. Then there are really four impacts that are critical to us. And you're going to note, and I want you to take note, of the fact I'm not going to talk about justice and equity in these four things. And I'll tell you why. Reliability, resilience, security, and affordability. No matter who I talk to in Washington DC or what audience I stand in front of, I talk about reliability, resilience, security, and affordability. And the reason for that is this. No matter whether you have a pin on your lapel that says R or D or I, everyone agrees on those four things. So my focus is on these things that are foundational to actually allowing us to make investments in the operational changes that will get us to a more equitable system, not just affordable but equitable, a more just energy system, and one that really reflects and represents the best that the government can do for the American people. So that's my job, that's our role, and I'm really happy to be here, Sally. Fantastic, thanks. There's a lot of threads that we could pick up on that, but yeah, maybe just one yesterday in the event. I was talking about alignment, and I think you just gave the best description of alignment, trying to come up with a set of objectives that everyone agrees with, but at the same time accomplish all the goals. Absolutely. Anyway, thank you. Thank you for that. OK, Dan. Well, you just heard from Gene. He is chatty, but he's really, really smart. So you're lucky to have him up here. So thank you, Gene. I'm Dan Reicher. I'm a senior scholar at the Woods Institute, which is part of the door school here at Stanford. I served in the Clinton administration as assistant secretary for efficiency and renewables as the department's chief of staff and as the acting assistant secretary for policy. In the Obama administration, I served on the transition team and the secretary of energy advisory board. And I also served for several years at Google as director of climate energy initiatives. So I've been moving around in the public and private sectors. Very, very pleased to be here, Sally, and I'll turn things back to you. OK, well, thank you, Dan. OK, well, we're going to just jump right in. And the first thing we'll talk about are, what are the challenges that you think that university researchers can contribute to most? Because I can say everybody in this room is incredibly motivated to work on this problem, to make a real impact. So I'd love to hear your thoughts. And Gene, we're going to start with you. Sure. I actually, I usually don't use notes at all. But I actually talked to a lot of folks around the department before I came here. And I have three notes around that. So that I'm fair to everyone, I have taken everything that I heard and translated it into things that make sense to me. The first is this. So if you work at a university, especially in the research side, one of the things you get up in the morning and you look in the mirror, you're very proud of yourself. You're proud of yourself because in the university setting, in the university setting, there is a culture of inclusion and innovation that comes together. It's easy on a beautiful campus like here at Stanford. For those of us, and I spent, what, 24 years in the electric utility industry before I worked my way up to public service, in the electric utility industry, the culture of innovation and inclusion could use more help. And if we're serious about what a research institution, like Stanford can do, then we must ask ourselves, what more can be done here where the culture exists to migrate it into the actual power sector? Now, I will say, if you're actually serious about thinking about that, you won't say, well, we'll educate them by showing them how cool we are. Instead, you'll recognize that the business bottle of the electric utility sector is one that doesn't actually champion innovation. You'll recognize that the policies and the regulation, whoops, in the power sector, isn't one that actually helps this culture of inclusion. And you'll start thinking about how we can do the second thing, which is truly partner with stakeholders outside of the academic world to help migrate this culture. And then the third thing is this, I would be remiss if I didn't bring it up because it comes up so often in our world, is again, it's not really all about policies and programs and technology and operations. It's about people. And if we're serious about the transformation that's facing a Sally, we're going to have to figure out how research institutions that are really strong on interdisciplinary approaches to solving big problems, how we're going to help that migrate into the workforce. Because right now, the proud over a century of the American grid is built on an engineering and economics platform. And it really, really, really needs to expand in so many directions, including in an understanding of behavioral science, an understanding of how to make the current network that is the grid, which is devices and people and behaviors on the grid edge and in the control rooms, a better 21st century approach so that we can decarbonize not just the energy sector, but the whole of our economy. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. That was really fantastic. Yeah, I'll get back to you with a question on that. But let's move over to you, Tracy. Sure, I think I'm really excited for this initiative because I think one of the things that this could bring to the rest of us, hopefully, is some continuity. Administrations come and go. But I know that this effort is going to have some durability. And I think that's really important to the effort. Being able to gather stakeholders to listen and to learn, catalog best practices, maybe even catalyze some communities of practice and really identify what works now. I think as I was discussed a little bit in the last panel, I think one of the things I think we can all agree on is this is a once-a-generation opportunity. And we haven't done anything of this scale in terms of, and I'm talking to put on my transmission and utility hat here, we haven't done anything this big in decades. I speak of ourselves when we went and when we government went and engineered and built these dams throughout the West and all the transmission, all the attendant transmission. Some of our systems, I'm just speaking for WAPA, some of our systems are 40, 50, 60 years old now. Think about how long ago that was. And so one thing I do know, again, which they touched on in the last panel, we can do better. I think we've learned, we watched, we learned, and we can definitely do better in terms of including those communities, figuring out ways, looking at this from a community development lens as well, to really grow those communities so they're not passed through or fly over communities. We have some of the most disadvantaged and rural communities amongst our 700 rural customers throughout the West, and we do really, really well working with them. And part of it is because we live in all those communities. Our linemen live in those communities and they stay there. Somebody joked one day that said, we're a very sticky organization. Every day I sign certificates of appreciation and service. It's not that, it happens fairly often. I'm signing 40 year service certificates. I signed 45 year certificate service recently. So I think it's a testament to public service. I think it's a testament to people's belief in public power and the mission that we do and the value that hydroelectricity brings to communities and to the grid specifically as well. And so I think some of that continuity developing a lot of those best practices and cataloging them I think is really going to be interesting and important for us. And also help us think about, and so this is also kind of one of those what keeps you up at night questions and how can you guys help. The two things that really keep me up at night is weather in all of its forms, whether it's extreme storms or if it's drought or if it's wildfire. Those are very top of mind for us right now. And the other is kind of that intersection of IT and operational technology, IT and OT. We're digitalizing everything. Thank God, we still have linemen and folks that can go out and actually pull switches and stuff out there. But it's just the rapid pace of digitalization really creates some worrying vulnerabilities as well. So between cybersecurity and that intersection of that and securing our systems is something leading edge research and R&D would be really, this will be a great partnership. Yeah, well that's great. Both of you emphasize people so much. And when I think about the utility industry in particular and reliability, which you started your list with that that often I think people who provide these services for communities that they don't get enough thanks. And I was so happy to hear that you were writing with their certificate because I have appreciation. The only time you hear from anybody is when something goes wrong. Like how many people wake up and say, oh, my electricity work today, I'm gonna write note to the utility thanking them. They don't, right? So they only hear about the bad things. And so I think that really contributes to being risk averse. And it's just not utilities, it's also building management. It's anybody who maintains infrastructure does not get rewarded for things that go wrong. So I think that that's so deep. And if you talk about the culture of people who've been there for 45 years, something that might have happened 30 years ago, not only did it happen to that individual, but that individual who now is respected tells that same story. So the lore of, well, you'll pay a big price for taking risks. So I think that we have a lot of work to do to recognize that people have been rewarded for things that we're now asking them to do differently. May I add one thing to that Sally and not to extend the conversation too much, but everyone in this room, let's be honest. When you flip the light switch, your expectation is the lights come on instantaneously. And that's a good thing. It's a testament to over a century of an engineering marvel that nobody understands or appreciates well enough. But you know what I fear? Is our ability to just take that for granted, take that for granted, has created a complacency about the need to continue to invest and change and evolve. Everything to do about the energy ecosystem. And again, it's the university researchers, that ecosystem that is unafraid to take a really hard look about what needs to be done. And that should underscore everything that Ernest and Stanford's research arm writ large focuses on. We're not working on a platform in which when you go to the hill, as I often do, the folks there, no matter what's on their pin, are thinking about what investments need to be made to modernize the grid, to be able to achieve the levels of decarbonization, resilience, affordability, and energy justice that this country and the people of this country deserve. Thanks. Okay, Dan, over to you. So let me follow up on these great remarks, particularly Jean, and actually Sally asked us three questions to pull together. And I'm gonna try to quickly pull those together. What challenges can universities successfully address? How can universities facilitate collaboration among very diverse parties? And what are some real world examples of all of this? Stanford through the Woods Institute, part of the door school here, has a process called the uncommon dialogue that's designed to bring diverse parties together around tough sustainability issues. And the uncommon dialogue, I think, taps three really good things that universities can do in this regard. Applying deep substance to complex issues, having a range of viewpoints, not just a single viewpoint as many organizations do, and bringing multiple tools to the table to help reach consensus. So Stanford checks all three of these boxes, and particularly on tough sustainability issues around this program called the uncommon dialogue. I was at the Stanford Law and Business Schools for eight years where I ran a program on energy policy and finance. I then moved over to the door school of the Woods Institute a few years ago, and I became very intrigued with this uncommon dialogue program, and I thought to myself, tough sustainability issues, what's the oldest one in the United States, and it is the battle between dam builders and river conservationists that goes all the way back to John Muir and the Hatshatchee Valley. I said, well, that's an easy one. Let's see if we can take that one on. So to make a long story short, we launched an uncommon dialogue bringing the National Hydropower Association, the big group representing the hydropower industry, and the biggest NGO on river conservation called American Rivers, plus lots and lots of other companies and organizations. We brought them together, sat them down, and said, you know, what are we gonna do with those almost 100,000 dams in the United States that are in such disarray in many respects? We've got so many things to do with them, but we reached a deal. Built around what we call the three R's, rehabilitate some of those dams for safety, retrofit some of them for power, because it turns out only about 2% of US dams make electricity, and remove a bunch of these dams for both safety and conservation reasons. New York Times wrote a wonderful piece on what we put together, and we went to Capitol Hill. This was a moment where just after President Biden was elected, and the second word out of his mouth was infrastructure. Our coalition went to Capitol Hill as the bipartisan infrastructure law was being negotiated, and lo and behold, we got 2.3 billion BS and Boyd dollars to implement our agreement. And that's going forward right now, built equally around each of those three R's spread across multiple federal agencies. We also sat down and negotiated a really tough issue, which is how to improve the licensing, re-licensing, and what's called license surrender for hydropower dams. We're way behind on all of that. It goes way back to the 1930s in the Federal Power Act. Believe it or not, we reached an agreement across industry, NGOs, tribes. We went to Capitol Hill, and there is pending now in the Senate a bipartisan bill on how you'd improve licensing, re-licensing, and license surrender. And I'm relatively optimistic that might actually happen, and that would be a big, big deal. Meanwhile, in 2022, the head of the Solar Energy Industries Association, a woman named Abby Ross Hopper, approached me and said, we like what you did with dams and conservation. We've got a real problem citing big solar, utility-scale solar. We're fighting about it all over the country. So we got six of the biggest solar developers. We got NGOs led by the Nature Conservancy, sat down, and 20 months later, this past October, we reached a major agreement on how big solar developers, the land conservation community, tribes, labor, could really put some oil in the gears of building big solar projects, hundreds, thousands of megawatts. It's built around not the three Rs, but the three Cs, climate, conservation, and community. And again, led by SEA and the Nature Conservancy. We're organizing six working groups right now that's gonna take off with the heavy work that's gotta be done in areas like utility-scale solar siting, community engagement, energy and ag technologies, the role of information technology in all of this. It's really, as we've heard already, very important. Finally, the first output actually of the solar uncommon dialogue was a recognition that one of the keys to building big solar, of course, is building even bigger transmission. How are you gonna get it to market? But that turns out to be even harder than siting big solar. So we decided to carve that off, and this past summer, we launched the third uncommon dialogue on transmission siting and cost allocation. Really, really, really hard. Imagine getting agreement about a 700 mile transmission line across three states that makes siting big solar look easy. But we're plugging away on that one, and we're relatively optimistic about it. So that's all I got to say. Thank you so much. Okay, well, thanks. So to Tracy and Jean, we just heard a great example of something that worked. It's spectacular, Dan, really, what you accomplished. Can you give us some other examples of what you think has worked with universities trying to tackle some of these issues? Sure, I'll go first. And in a way that's transparent and obvious, I will give credit to Slack here at Stanford. One of the things, and again, to be fair, again, I have four pages of notes from everybody who all had ideas about this. So I have shown them to you so I can tell everybody. Everybody saw them. Everybody in the room saw them, and they all agreed. But there's something that Slack has worked on recently that actually echoes some of the impact and influence of the work of the uncommon dialogues. So as we think about the energy system of the future, we know an awful lot about generation. We know an awful lot about transmission, and we all know a ton about the distribution network. In fact, we know so much about these things. There are all kinds of folks who make their living pointing at all the problems and flaws and stuff that get in the way of any change whatsoever. Do you know where nobody knows an awful lot? Where we don't know an awful lot is closest to home, or closest to the business. It's how do we make, how do we make all those devices and all those people and all the decisions that are being made pass the meter a reliable, resilient, secure energy resource. Something that can be forecast, something that can be countered on, something that you even have visibility of. Well, in California, one of the places I'm very proud of, we're actually starting in the regulatory community to figure out how to do transmission distribution planning in an integrated fashion so that you can start looking at this as a resource. But Tracy, or my, oops, sorry about that, my friends at Southern California Edison where I used to work years ago, would tell you that before we can make investments to in that resource instead of either additional transmission capacity or reconductoring to get more bang for the buck in existing pathways, or this or that or the other, we need to actually understand in real time, we're talking nanosecond time, what the impact of that grid edge resource will be. And that's something Slack is actually doing some cutting edge work on. Because they're looking, everyone's heard the old business saw it, you get what you measure, right? Oh well, you just have to put the right key indicators in place and people will respond to it. That is wrong. You know, in the energy sector, you know what you get? You get what you model. Because it's the modeling that drives investment decisions. It's the modeling that allows regulators and policy makers to say, yeah, I'm gonna take my magic beans and put them on that demand side. So the work Slack is doing is building an overlay of socioeconomic modeling that goes on top of engineering modeling that allows us to use the electric vehicles in our garages, the devices in our homes and businesses, and the decisions we make, whether financially driven or for some other reason about how to use energy, to allow all of us to be part of that work. And I will tell you this. That's a huge success not because of the research. It's a huge success because of something that Dan was just bringing up. It starts the uncommon dialogue of bringing different voices, different perspectives to the table to understand how to both get impact and influence in the grid going forward. So Kudos to Stanford on that. Keep it up, but do more. Thanks, so a great example. Tracy. Ditto. I was gonna actually use Slack as a great example of the good work that they're doing, particularly in grid simulations and so forth. But what I really, really liked about that effort that was announced in December, I like that they partnered with Hitachi. I like that they partnered, just brought in partners to do this from industry and from just a nice diversity of viewpoint on it. And one of the things I would encourage and what we really enjoy seeing is not just the inclusion of the industry member organizations, which are good, but also those of us who are actually working the grid. We have got a couple of initiatives that we're considering right now like how and possibly some proof of concept worked around AI and it's how we can use that to make more efficient our grid operations. So that's how, you know, help our dispatchers make decisions a little bit more efficiently. And one of the, you know, so we had a lot of modelers out there talking and they were like getting all excited and then finally they said, oh, maybe we talked to somebody who was actually with like hands on the grid. And so we got invited into the party. And, but I saw, I think that, you know, that kind of does two things, not only just the proof of concept how this work in like a real situation, but also for our utility folks out there, you know, who are a lot of our dispatchers, our folks who, you know, work on our communication systems and all parts of our, you know, transformers and all of that, to get them, you know, exposed to this is what these types of new tools and new ways of thinking is also, I think, very exciting for them. And so more of that, please, as well. Okay, terrific. You know, what we're gonna do is we're gonna open it up for questions, but then at the very end, I'm gonna come back for a quick little lightning statement from each of you. And it will be your advice for effective interaction with stakeholders. But hold that thought, because now we're gonna open this up to questions from the audience. So I just raise your hand. I do believe there are people with mics running around and don't be shy. All right, how you doing everyone? My name's Chris Lawrence, I'm with, I'm an alum of the Office of Electricity and I currently work for Tracy at WAPA. Not a question, but more of a plug. Electric plug, pun intended. I'm hilarious. Anyway, Tracy's currently regretting all of her hiring decisions, current electric. That's the second pun. Anyway, I wanna put in a plug in, second to only what Holmes was saying about Arun Majamdar's gravitational pull is the Department of Energy's tremendous power, third pun, as a convening authority. Bringing together experts to have conversations and I'm sure somewhere in Gene's four pages of notes, he has notes about the Electricity Advisory Committee. It's one example of a Federal Advisory Committee Act committee and I know when you think innovation, you think the Federal Advisory Committee Act. Now, I will say that that is one committee that has academic people on it, Link Heesling for examples on there, but those committees are at every level of government. There's about 30th of the Department of Energy. Arun is the chairman of the one that actually advises Secretary Graham Holm called the Secretary of Energy Advisory Board, which Professor Reicher was mentioning, but also the president has his own as well and I would encourage everyone in academia and across the board to pay attention to what all of those committees are doing because they are open. They bring in tremendous voices throughout every aspect of academia, industry, to have these conversations on a constant basis, providing recommendations to people in all levels of government. So I would encourage everyone, especially here at Stanford and all universities to look at what all that work is going on because these are tremendous conversations happening in real time that you could all be involved in. So I would just put that note out there. And Arun and I spent many a night arguing over CF and those were some fun conversations. So I just want to say that. Thank you. Okay, thank you for that comment. Okay, comments, questions. Do we have more? Oh, you have to ask a question. This is an incredible group of people. I think they've made that point. So much to offer. David Victor has one over here. I'll go first and then we have David. But thank you so much for the phenomenal panel and folks, this is an opportunity to ask questions. Don't remain silent. So one of my key questions is what advice would you provide to the researchers and students that will be engaging in earnest as means and one idea to support indeed the federal goals for the carbonization, resilience and the transition to environmental justice? So with that, it's a big question, but if there is one piece of advice, I would love to hear from you what that would be. Thank you. I'll start. Don't let your perceived role define your contribution. The federal objectives, the federal goals for de-carb, for resilience, reliability, security, affordability, for energy justice, for equity, they're not the government's goals. They're the people's goals. So for anyone who is, thanks to Chris, anyone who is brave enough to contribute and to be part of talking to us, you're the voices we listen to. It's not people in suits and clip-on ties like me. It's the folks who are actually rolling up their sleeves to try to do something about it. And Jean mentioned bravery. I'll tell you, when we put the river conservation folks together with the dam builders at the beginning of the hydropower on Common Dialogue, it was the coldest room I have ever been in. They really had never spoken to each other in a way for decades and decades. It took two and a half years, but they really warmed up. And they warmed up so much that we had a couple of them who went on canoe trips together and they become big buddies. The top hydropower lawyer in Washington, DC and the top lawyer for the river conservation community have become really good friends. So get them at the table. Don't be afraid of putting real adversaries at the table, but put the right information in front of them, give them options, and who knows? Some good things could come out the other end. Yeah, what do you think? Sure, I think I wouldn't, I'm not gonna be presumptuous enough. I mean, on the academia side or the R&D side, everybody, you guys know what you're doing on that part of it. But really, I think maybe teeing off a little bit of what Dan was talking about. You know, bringing folks that you might not automatically think of to the dialogue is gonna be really, really important. And that is, I hope, in addition to all the other universities that's involved in this, also bringing in unions. They're gonna be a massive part of this effort going forward, now on going forward, bringing together different stakeholders across the spectrum and really at the local levels if you can, because really the infrastructure where we hit the wall is, it's not, I mean, we have plenty of issues on the federal side that we can always do better, but it's really, it's state line siding committees. It's local, you know, it's local county permitting, and I'm not gonna say that it's bad, it's just, it takes time, and when you have that local connection is when you really can do some good things. So, you know, just like, you know, just make sure, you know, the idea of like helicoptering into communities is not gonna, it's not gonna work. We really need to get very local and very focused on local. And I think that's the only, you know, the, I was talking in a room yesterday, I'm like, it's hearts and minds. We need a hearts and minds campaign. We haven't done big infrastructure like this, like I said, in decades. And so we're really gonna take that type of approach. The people, again, Sally, the people approach, thinking about who's really gonna benefit, finding those benefits, and investing in local communities so people will stay there. And so it's not just, you know, dropping a royalty check and leaving, and what you really leave is a bunch of resentment at the end of the day. So creating jobs and creating those types of opportunities for, you know, for folks, I think is gonna be, and bringing them in to the conversation on the front end, it's just good business these days. So. Okay, terrific. Well, I promised you'd get a very quick final remark, particularly around on the how, how to engage. You know, if you haven't been doing that, that's a big, scary frontier. So maybe Dan will start with you. Be inclusive, you know. The Department of Energy needs to be at the table. I'll tell you this. She came in quite quietly, but the Secretary of Energy came into our near done negotiation and she really made a difference in the solar one. The grid edge, as Gene talked about, you gotta pull people in from there. The core generators, as Tracy talked about, and the big dollars, big, big dollars, unprecedented dollars we've got right now in Washington, D.C. from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and from the Inflation Reduction Act. We haven't seen any money like this ever. This is the moment. Be inclusive. My quick and dirty, it's just a steal from Chris who talked about the power of convening and Dan who talked about the uncommon dialogue. You can do no wrong if you listen to those two guys. A case in point around what seems like an intractable issue, the supply chain woes facing the electric utility industry. Came home to roost in a way that everyone's noticing around distribution transformers, those cans that you see locally that help to get power at the stage it is to what your house or home or business needs. We convened the distribution transformer manufacturers, all the stakeholders from the production of the steel that goes into them and alternatives that are there and the utility sector put them all around the table and then brought in our partners in the US government from the Department of Labor, Department of Commerce, National Security and had one of Dan's uncomfortable but productive uncommon dialogues. The power of convening is just about recognizing that you're not smart enough, you're not strong enough to do it all yourself. If you wanna have an enduring impact, you better bring in all the stakeholders and have them be part of the solution. Thank you and you get the last word. Awesome, so you guys have covered it great. I think what was mentioned earlier that really resonated with me as well is just the importance of also bringing in private sector. This is an unprecedented amount of funding that's available out there, but it's gonna take the private capital to really come in and make this work. And so I think in the West, what we do know is we've got such complexity with water and power. We have such rural areas and a big presence of public power and member-owned utilities that we have to work with. So not just talking to IOUs, but talking to public power, talking to PMAs, talking to everybody, bringing them to the table. I think what we have not done well in the United States, which the West of the world does, is public-private partnerships. And I just don't see how this happens in the West without bringing public-private together. And so just keeping that in mind that they're equally important part of this puzzle. Yeah, well, terrific. Thank you all. That was fantastic. Let's please thank the panelists.