 It's my pleasure to introduce our first performer whose name is Clayton Valley, whose sign name is V, like this. He's deaf, he grew up in the Vermont, New Hampshire area, and now he lives in Washington, D.C., and works full-time as an instructor in their Department of Linguistics and Sign Language Interpreting at Gallaudet University. Please help me give a warm welcome to Clayton Valley. Thank you. Whoa, I'm thrilled at the size of this audience. Wow, thank you. I'd like to tell you a little bit more about myself, if I may. Like, how did I get into working with poetry and ASL, and how did I start creating this? When I was about 12, I'd have to say about 12, I was the classroom teacher, passed out a sheet, and I was totally fascinated by the images that were on this. Before we had written English, and I had struggled with it, of course, I really didn't feel I have a grasp of English, but that particular poem that she handed out that day, it really helped me understand. I was very surprised, and the author of this poem was Robert Frost. He's a very strong image maker, and he focuses on nature. Well, later on, I thought, why shouldn't I try writing poetry? So I thought I'd see what happened, and I went ahead. Oh, as I got writing, whew, it was awfully tough. I kept working and working, and when I got finished, I showed it to the instructor to see what she would think. I looked at her facial expression, and obviously lost all sorts of motivation. That all went away, and then much further down the road, I'd have to say, oh, when I was about 20, maybe 21, I had become a student in NTID at that time. And I felt a spark in me again. And from the time I was 12 to the time I was 21, I realized that there was this feeling. I felt kind of shy about writing poetry still. I gave it a try, but I just felt like it wasn't my medium. I didn't know what to do with it. And so I decided to put that on hold. And I thought to myself, why can't I see if I can sign poetry? And as I got going and experimenting, it was interesting. Did I tell my friends, though? Absolutely not. I kept it very closely guarded secret. And then later on, well, I'll explain later on later. So I gave up the written form. And around that time, I created the poem, My Favorite Summer House. This will be the first one. It was about 1971, 72, that era. So have you read this yet? OK, I'll be doing that first. And I'll want you to read it first because I'm not going to use a voice interpreter. I'm just going to perform it visually and see if that will make a difference for you to just see it visually and not have any oil input. So let me give you a minute or so to read this. OK, do you all have papers who want some? You want OK? Go on then. The title of this poem is My Old Summer House. Next, we have one titled The Windy Bright Morning. My first poem, My Favorite Old Summer House. Well, around the same time next year, the following year, it was 73 or 74. I wrote this poem. I really struggled with it and I gave it up. But then I started signing it and it started coming OK. What happened was that I got this terrible toothache. It was really giving me a lot of pain. And I told the dentist that I really wanted to fix. And he said, you're going to have to wait for tomorrow for an appointment. I said, oh, now it really hurts bad. But they said, oh, the schedule is full. So I was stuck. I had to wait till the following day. I didn't quite know what to do because I went to bed that night and my tooth was just pounding. You know what it's like. I can imagine I paced the floor and didn't know what to do to keep myself occupied, so I thought to myself, why don't I just practice this and try to develop? So this is the windy, bright morning. Have you read this yet? Why don't you go ahead and read it first? The topic of the title of the next poem is the Lonely, Sturdy Tree. Around the time that I wrote this, I was driving every day, commuting from one town to another from my home to work. That was around in, oh, 76. Oh, mainstream was just getting it started at that time. And it was just starting to spread. And at that time, I had a job teaching in a mainstream school. So I was commuting back and forth every day. Oh, and I was having the most terrible rouse with teachers there. And the teachers didn't seem to understand what I had to say. And I was extremely frustrated. I would explain myself all the day every day. I just seemed to have lots of confrontations. And on my way, I used to spot this tree standing alone and strong. And it really influenced me. And I felt I identified with that. So why don't you go ahead and read this now? OK, I would like to tell you how I happen to come up with the snowflake. The snowflake is my first experiment with actually signing a poem first and not having anything to do with a written form. And I totally created it in ASL and used the videotape. Before, I used to try to to write my poetry and help develop it that way. So the snowflake, I had a very interesting experience. I decided to take on a foster child whose parents could not take care of him because he was emotionally disturbed, deaf, withdrawn, and his parents just had no idea how to cope with him. And so they decided to give him up as a foster child and I decided to take him in. So the two of us went shopping one day and I was looking for shoes for him because his were in horrendous shape. You know, the toes were splitting out and everything. And he was so excitable. He was jumping all over the store. And I kept trying to keep him in his chair. He obviously didn't get out much. And so I was trying to keep him down. And every time I went to look for something, he'd pop out of his chair. So there was a man who was watching this and he came over to me and started to talk to me. He indicated that he realized the child was deaf and I couldn't hear him. And he said, look at me, just watch. And he spoke to this little his child and the child spoke back to him. I thought, well, big deal. And then he said, just look at this. And he spoke to the child again and the boy looked up at him and he spoke again. Right. His child was deaf. But the father was so impressed that the child could speak. But that image really hit home to me. I was really unhappy that that was such a big deal for him. But this poem was developed after I had this experience. Are we all okay? Has everyone read it? Okay. The next one is entitled Dandelion. For me as well as others, I've looked for, I've found out things about myself and found out things about how I relate to culture. And this is what this poem is about. Have you read it? Okay. About in the back. Okay, this is our last one. And it's entitled The Cave. This is a brand spanking new one. I just finished writing it. Maybe the deaf among us have had serious discussions about implants. And there've been hot conversations about it. So The Cave is a story that's related to the topic of cochlear implants. Okay, I guess we're finished. And now three more. Am I interpreting Marie Brunei? Many thanks to Marie. Okay, now. Before we have the intermission, I just have a few things I'd like to say. Oh, Debbie. Hello. Debbie, I went to the bathroom and I have to admit I feel better. Okay. Oh, I didn't want to have to put up with feeling like I had to go through that whole presentation. Well, I'm the final presenter for today. And I have to warn you, my presentation is strongly focused on art. I'm going to be talking about the technical aspects of art. And I have to let you know that you need to readjust your thinking caps a bit. This is a bit of an experiment here. I have to let you know, so don't be scared of it. But I need to explain that this is partly science and partly art. And so you need to readjust your thinking so that art and science can work together to explain these phenomenon. Are you ready for that challenge? Ready to follow me? Okay. Around 1970, thereabouts, we started to notice the first original ASL poetry. In the past, some had been written English in English and then translated into ASL. But in the seven, around the 1970s, we finally started to see ASL poetry originally created in the language. Oh, and William Stokey in the 1960s, who was a hearing linguist, saw ASL and started to analyze it and had seen it labeled as bad English, but he really put that labeling aside and started to study it from a linguistic approach. And people started to laugh at him because he said it was a real language. They said he was crazy, but Stokey was persistent. He worked at it long and hard and researched further and dug and analyzed. And around 1965, or in the 1960s, as Ella pointed out, new philosophy began to spread. From the 60s on, we've found that ASL is a language. I really am not sure what happened up until that point. It was like the Dark Ages, but we have new research that has come along since that time. ASL poetry, by its nature, is difficult to define. In during high school, I was very frustrated by trying to analyze poetry and it was a very difficult subject for me. The educational system for the deaf had been in place, essentially, unchanged for 200 years, as Patrick said, and I agree with him. And we're still struggling under this old system. They teach children, first of all, reading, speech, writing, how to think, and how to sign, all in English. And they emphasize English to a great extent. They suppressed the creative urge in ASL. Some people really took off with it in ASL, but I think if children were taught using ASL, they really would develop their creativity. So they've been suppressed by the use of English all those years. Teachers have the goal of allowing the children to experience art by passing out poetry and literature, but the children are frustrated because they don't understand it. The teachers want them to analyze it and study it, but the children feel frustrated because they feel that they're always wrong. And so, as they leave class, they develop negative opinions about the whole subject. And when I've started to talk about poetry, I've noticed among my deaf friends that their facial expression has become very withdrawn and they just sort of nod, and it's very clear that they've had bad experiences. They're very turned off and very defensive. They don't want to hear about it, and they just want to get out of the whole subject. It's a very extreme reaction. Well, poetry, however you want to sign it, does not only depend on sound. It's wide open. You can use all of your five senses to experience poetry. It's wide open, and anything can happen. It isn't only limited to the sense of sound. Okay, I spotted what the problem was, and so I wanted to get into what was the nature of poetry. There is so much information to look at. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm talking about the nature of ASL poetry. I wanted to find out really what was in it. I didn't know what its characteristics were or what criteria one used to look at it. In written poetry, we can find rhyme and rhythm and lines and line division, but I couldn't see that in ASL poetry. First, I looked at English poetry. It's very good to know English as a second language, and I looked to see what was involved with poetry. What did it mean? And I found four important criteria. First of all, it was rhyme. Secondly, line division. Third, the stanzake form, meaning the way it's divided into verses and that form. And finally, the overall structure. I was wondering if perhaps ASL poetry also had this, if it could have perhaps rhyme, line division, and actually that was enough for me. That was enough to analyze. I just didn't want to even go into stanzake form or the overall form. I was wondering if you could divide ASL poetry into lines. And I asked other people and it seemed that there was just a beginning and an end to the poetry itself. And I was wondering, hmm, does it have any lines? I couldn't find any explanation of that. It was very clear where the lines ended in English, but how do we look at that in ASL? So I decided to analyze that aspect of it. Okay, so we have English and the power of English poetry seemed to depend on the hearing of it. Where does the power in ASL poetry come from? It comes from seeing it. And so it's parallel, it goes along the same path but in two different ways. In looking at the sounds that we find in poetry, in English, we see consonants and vowels. So they depend on that and by manipulation of consonants and vowels, you feel power. What about in ASL poetry? Well, I decided to study linguistics and take what I learned from studying English poetry and depended on that to try to analyze the ASL poetry I saw. There were two people by the names of Liddell and Johnson. Liddell, abbreviate that, L and J, who developed a notation system for analyzing sign language and notating it and putting down specific information which included facial expression, body movement, et cetera. So there were various divisions and signs similar to consonants and vowels. One was a hold and the other was a movement. These are two basic divisions. So we have consonants and vowels in English and we have a hold compared to a movement in sign language. So those seem to be the basis for examining this. We'd put together consonants and vowels to find words and how would we do the holds and the movements? Okay, yeah, this is a hold and sometimes we have a hold, a movement and then a hold, like brother. Just the simple sign of brother. There's a hold movement hold there. Let me explain that more clearly. From touching my forehead, that's a hold. My hand moving down is a movement coming down to the sign right, which is another hold. So there's a real Liddell and Johnson's notation system develops along the lines of the hold movement, hold type of notation. It's a lot of work to analyze different signs and I haven't used the whole thing but I've used parts of it to demonstrate my opinions. Okay, you've got the idea with notation here, right? Well, a problem occurs. Okay, I'd like to talk about citation form. We abbreviate that CF. So let me give you an example in English. Boy, it sounded different, right? Okay, that's the citation form or the dictionary definition of the word boy. That's how, if I asked for a word that meant that, I would use the word boy. So in prose, it means the use of everyday colloquial speech. We, it has a definition of poetry and explains the specifics, but anyway. I had to explain these different things using ASL for, oh, in ASL, prose, poetry and the citation form. There were the three different registers in language. Okay. Okay, I have several overheads. Let me see the first one. We'll show the citation form in prose of ASL. And let me demonstrate that now. Is it hard to see? I'm gonna go through and explain this. Okay, here we have the English gloss, okay? And the segments, meaning whether it's a hold or a movement. So it's divided into segments by that use. And in parentheses, we have strong. Oh, that means I'm using my dominant arm. People who are left-handed have, I have the dominant arm in their left hand. Okay, the movement is whether it's moving in a circular fashion, out and in from the body or left to right. Hand configuration means what specific type of handshape your hand is in. And these are all the same. The final category is non-manual signals. That's the use of facial expression, the use of eyebrows, the movement of the mouth, et cetera. And we show this in pictures and segments. And this looks like English here. I want to go, and so we're following the English structure. This is the citation form of ASL. I pointing to myself, the citation form of want, that's a dictionary meaning of want, the way you sign it. So you're pulling it in toward yourself. This is go to, this is the citation form of that. Store, okay. As you notice, we've divided these into separate categories. There's no hold in I, it's just a moving sign. It moves in and it holds when you arrive at your body. In order to figure this out, you'd kind of have to adjust your VCR so you could see this in slow motion. So it holds when it arrives on the body. And the handshape is if you had a number, you were holding up the number one. Okay, let me give you an example of this. For example, I could use a one or a two here. You see what I mean? So we're talking about handshape and it stays the same, it doesn't change. It remains the one handshape all the way in until it touches your body. Do you have a question? Okay, what these lines mean are it's a connected movement, meaning it's not halted. It's continuous. All right, there's separate concepts but they're connected by a movement. So one is all a continuous movement. See what I mean? There's a hold here and you draw it in toward yourself and you notice there are two different handshapes here. These are different. One is an open five and with the three dots over that five that indicates that the hand draws into a claw shape as you move it in. So these are actually two different handshapes that we're talking about from the beginning to the ending of this one particular side sign. The right hand is strong or dominant. The left hand is the weaker one and over in the I portion of it you only use the right hand and not the left. Okay, Stokey made a similar type of notation here and so Stokey found several are developed a particular type of notation and it's kind of evolved to the point that it is now of Liddell's and Johnson's. The sign go to is very simple. It comes from a five that's closed into a closed O. The hold and then repeats itself. It moves out twice. It's the same hand shape and it's a double motion and both hands are the same shape and so it's notated that way both on the top line and in the lower lines. So this is in prose not in poetry and this is the citation form. If one were to ask how to sign I want to go to the store. This is what someone would tell you. Okay, the way deaf people tend to sign every day would be I want to go to the store in this fashion. Oh my, it's ASL prose but it's a colloquial use of everyday language. Everything is abbreviated. Before we saw the sign I but that's become mutated into the I being involved with this hand shape here. It's close and so this hand shape means I want built all in into one sign. So I want is this movement and then it combines further into going to the store. It flips around and becomes the store. The question is in terms of the placement in terms of the body where you would put the sign want go to store. Can you show a little bit more example of that please? That's a real good point. She said she wanted to know about the placement. We're not talking about the location that has been eliminated because we're only looking at these three criteria to analyze poetry. Let me tell you there are a lot more criteria and it fills several charts and let me tell you make your head spin to try to look at all of it. So I chose three important criteria for me to deal with. Okay, so you get the idea. Okay, we've got citation form in poetry and prose. Oh, we have citation form, we have prose form. Now do we have it in poetry? How can we look at poetry? Can we use the system? I decided that I had to see. I had already applied it to citation form and prose. Okay, poetry, my first step. Well, wait, hang on just a moment. I almost jumped ahead, I'm glad I checked my notes. Okay, with ASL poetry, a similar poet problem popped up when I went to analyze it. There were not many original poems to look at that were originally developed in ASL. I started working in analyzing poetry in 1984. I got $1,000 from the Stokey Scholarship Grant to begin analyzing and doing this. I had been struggling with myself to try to figure out whether I really wanted to jump into this and when I got the money it really pushed me into it. So in 84, oh, I didn't want to use my own poetry. I wanted to use a poetry of others. And I knew Ella and she was the only one I could come up with. And I was wondering if I should use mine, but it's the only other that I could really look at. So I started looking at both of them and it really wasn't a lot of fun. I kept looking at videotapes back and forth and back and forth and trying to analyze them and trying to find the criteria that I felt that I could really grasp onto. And so let me share with you what I started to find. Is this citation form or prose? Which are you speaking of right now? Well, I haven't looked at that yet. First I was looking at citation form and then prose. Well, citation form is like I want to go to the store. And then I looked at prose and documented that and showed how I could use this system. So now I was trying to apply this notation system to poetry to see if it would be useful. I picked a few lines of my own poetry and also of Ella's. And this is from my poem, The Snowflake, where I show the full tree and then the leaves falling and then the grass and that withering. And I felt that that was enough, a very, very simple part of my own poetry to look at. And with Ella's, I chose, I'm not, I hope you don't critique me on this, excuse me if I'm wrong with this. Okay, the first is Time Our Eternal and then The Sun Rises and Sets Eternally. I just chose that brief segment of her work and that was enough. And now let me explain this to you. This notation is just to indicate the tree. There's no movement. Both of them are five hand shapes. So we see five and they're both holds, there's no movement. And the eyebrows are raised and the lips are pursed through this whole time. See the lips and the eyebrows are raised that indicates the subject of the tree. And my eye gaze is looking at what I'm signing for the whole duration of this particular phrase. And my body is shifted to the right. Okay, that's what all of that means. So now let's move over here to the leaves. First we have the tree and then we show the leaves and the eyebrows are still raised and the lips are still pursed and my body is still facing the signing. So those carry through to the next segment. And as the tree is up and then I shake my head, stick up my tongue a little bit and show the leaves have fallen off the tree. The T.H. indicates my tongue is slightly out and the negative means that my head is shaking back and forth. Here we have the tree and the leaves that have fallen and then we move and we see the grass that is not waving but has withered and died. And this is the sign here for grass. It's the five hand shape. And here again the brows are raised and the lips are pursed as I'm showing you the subject of the grass. And as we move over to the next segment and I show it waving, I have the same facial expression and then as it withers, it's exactly the same as it was before. You get a negative head shake with the tongue coming out. I know it's a little difficult to read but I just want you to see the bottom part here. That these were repeated exactly as they were before. Did you notice that? They're exactly the same. And when I saw that, I had to ask myself, hmm, is this line division? Could be. Now we'll take a look at Ella's work. Okay, this is Ella's poem called The Circle of Life. Yesterday I believe she performed this. So it's The Circle of Life showing time passing and the hour going on eternally. And it's the same motion through all three signs. It's a circular motion. The hand shape however varies. First we have a T circling, then a one hand shape and then an A. She doesn't emphasize the hand shape but I seem to tend to. She seems to more make use of the repetition of movement but her facial expression is a different story. Her brows are raised and she's looking at what she's assigning. And the brows are raised. Oh, no, excuse me. Oh, wrong, I was wrong, excuse me. And she's not looking at what she's signing in the first sign. The second sign, she shifts and looks at what her hands are doing. And then in the third sign, she's back to looking out at her audience for the sign eternal. Here we have the sun in this line going around from sunrise to sunset eternally. And the hand shape again is differing with each individual segment but her facial expression remains the same as it was before. Her eyebrows are lifted and down and then looking at the sign and then looking back out of the audience again. So her shift in gaze is occurring the same way as before. So again, I have to ask, is this the ASL definition of line division? As you see here, we have a direct mapping from one line to the next. Does anything depend on the expression itself? I'm gonna move on to explain that a little bit later. Okay, so how do you know when is the end of a line? So let me try to explain that now. Can you see me? Can we raise the lights just a little please? Can we bring the lights up on the stage? Is that better? Fine, is that better for everybody? Okay, thank you very much. Okay, can you see this now still? Okay. Okay, great, thanks. Okay, how do we know a line has ended? So, hold it, hold it. I really wanna make this clear. We really need a spot, please, on Clayton and preserve that light that we have with the overhead. Is that better? Now can everybody see that as well? Thank you very much. Wonderful, perfect. Okay, let's just keep it right there. Okay, great. Okay, my question of line division, I seem to notice this going on but I needed to find some proof of where this line was ending. The handshape in the different lines looked continuous but how did I know that a particular line was over with by looking at the movement and seeing that the final handshape was the same? Hold on. Both of them had a downward movement so they're both moving down. The leaves are falling down and the grass is withering down and we know that this is where the line ends. We hope. And now let's look at Ella's. I think we'll see the same thing. Her movement is continuous so we've gotta see how do we know where this line ends? How can we possibly decipher that? We can find the line termination by looking at the handshape movement. The movement is continuous but the handshape stays the same. Ella and I seem to use different devices to show the end of our lines. I used movement and her handshape repeated and so that we know that's the end of her line. So the handshape is the same and so that's what we mean by line termination. Is everything okay? Are you all clear on this? Great. I found all of these interesting things and I'll tell you, I started to get more and more excited about it and I was a little nervous because I wasn't quite sure what I was finding was valid and I started asking different people and most people seem to agree with me and most of the poets here are very well versed and I'm planning on talking to you all about this concept later. Yes? I'm curious about something. Because of Ella's explanation about that, about linguistics, I'm wondering does this mean that we can't really analyze the poetry adequately because it seems like it strains the language in a way so I'm really interested to find that you're saying we can analyze the poetry and that there is a way to do this and that we can adequately linguistically analyze what we're doing. Yes, that's true. I believe that we can. Yes? I wanna explain. I didn't say that you couldn't analyze linguistics of it. I just said that you can't really apply the same rules of linguistics to ASL sometimes that have been applied to English and I think that you have to analyze the style. You can analyze poetry, you can analyze linguistics but they tend to have different parameters to use. Yeah, I'm borrowing some of these techniques to analyze English, to analyze the poetry that we find in ASL. Okay. Okay, I found all of these interesting phenomenon and then I went back to English. Remember we talked about consonants and vowels? And how they repeat and there's also repetition in American sign language and I wanted to see how these compared. Well, this is one line from an English poet and I noticed the repetition of the consonant M in mother, months, and meadows. This technique is called alliteration and I didn't really know what to call the repetition I found in an ASL poetry and here's another line from a poetry in English and this is a repetition of a vowel sound and this is called assonance and I thought this was very interesting so I stole the idea of alliteration but I couldn't really apply it to ASL. It was a different type of approach so I needed to come up with some different idea so I came up with what I call handshake rhyme. And in American sign language poetry I've come up with also movement path rhyme. The repetition of facial expressions I abbreviate as NMS to mean non-manual signals rhyme. I was trying to think if there was a fourth one it's still a little sticky I'm not sure that you'll all quite agree with me or not but I'm proposing that we can also come up with something called line division rhyme. It might sound a little awkward but it seems that we can find divisions where things are repeated. And so I'm definitely open to discussion on this last one. The first three I think are fairly clear but the last one is poetry. In prose or in poetry there are several different names for it in English and I was wondering if there was also the same thing in ASL. When I got into the whole subject though it was a really tough one. I decided to hold up my investigation of that because some people who are very very knowledgeable about rhythm may want to analyze that. I think that might be a little bit over my head. Okay so that's my explanation of that. And in conclusion I wanna tell you that my goal for all of us and I think all of our goals is that ASL poetry or ASL art can start to spread and grow and we can look at it and talk about it and teach these things to future generations so it can be handed down for them. That's all, thank you. Do we have any questions from the audience? I'm interested in what you said about rhythm and rhyme. I understand your concepts but it makes me ruminate about a few things. The word itself, rhyme, I feel like that is so bound in the sounds of poetry and English poetry. Perhaps that's an incorrect term to use and I wonder, you know, native Indian-American poetry it's a whole separate language that's very iconic and perhaps we can use a different sort of word for that. Do those sorts of languages have a rhyme do you think? Two, maybe we can't but maybe we need to coin a new term. Perhaps we can come up with something new to apply to this. That's real interesting, the use of the word rhyme, that particular word, I can borrow it from English and use it for a similar idea because they both mean repetition. They have the same meaning so I've just borrowed the word rhythm as a repetition of movement and I've noticed that in ASL poetry, I'm sure you can notice a certain rhythm to it or to an image but I'm not exactly sure how to define it and how to set it up. I really tell you, I've struggled with it and tried to find its identity and it's very complex. The Navajo poetry that we've seen, does that have a different rhythm? Well like you, I'm not real familiar with this area. I was wondering about pausing and the different rhythms that we see with the whole movement hold and I do understand that you, that we need to analyze this concept more but when you were talking about the movement or the circular movement of hour and hour and time and time, did you count how much time, how much duration was involved in the movements to compare with how many movements were used in continuously or how many movements were used with the concept of the sun moving in that poem? Yeah, that was an incredible amount of work so I avoided the rhythm. I was trying to use a stopwatch to check how long things were moving and you need data in order to study this and we checked out the patterns and I would notice certain things occurring and it was an incredible amount of work. Let me tell you, I was just overwhelmed. I was counting the one, two, three, one, two, three to try to set up some sort of rhythm pattern there and moving from slow to fast and at the same time I really wasn't quite aware of that but now as I'm talking to you it's starting to make a little bit more sense. I have a question for you and for Ella. Now the two of you are poets and I realized that the two of you choose your signs quite carefully to incorporate into your poetry. Now I wonder if this means do you match the signs to match the rhyme and the rhythm that you want particularly or how do you come up with these that you want to use? Well I don't know, maybe Ella would like to respond for herself but it's real interesting. First of all I come up with a poetry itself and when it's all done and I feel inside that it's exactly right in it it says what I want it to say. Then, well I don't know always where it comes from. Ella I'm not sure where your poetry comes from. Well for me I do remember when I was wondering what to use for a particular poem. Especially the one that I showed where I was using a ring hand shape. Now of course for the wedding poem I did want to show the movement. I had the concept I wanted and I wanted to match the duration of time. I wanted certain things that I definitely wanted to incorporate the movement, the idea of wedding bands and the time eternally and those sorts of ideas the sun. I knew certain shapes that I did want to incorporate so I chose them very carefully on purpose. Those were the things I had in mind but I couldn't get much more precise about that until I never really analyzed it until later on. Yeah you're right we seem to pick particular hand shapes but the facial expression I really don't think about. You know it just sort of happens and you have it. And you know that really hit me hard when I realized that it just occurred naturally. I don't notice my facial expressions when I do it either. It just seems to be inherent in the signs. I'm curious about rhyme, that word in English. My feeling is that it's so bound in the phonetic sounds of the language and in ASL poetry I'm a little non-plus. I don't think it's similar. Okay it's real interesting rhyme. For me to borrow that term it's the same as what Debbie said. Looking in the dictionary to find what the answer and the answer said repetition of movement for rhyme. That's right on. That's exactly to the point. There's the movement of sound which is the rhyme that we're familiar with but actually rhyme just means repetition of movement so the answer was right there in the dictionary. I was so relieved. We have sound movement and we have visual movement and it's just the same thing but applied differently. I'm curious sometimes with me and my work and I notice in others as well. I use very strong images or characters that I want to portray. Maybe somebody that I'm meeting and I notice a person, maybe a farmer. I notice this image and it ingrains itself upon my memory and then I process that. Now later perhaps I'm in a different situation but the same person's there. I use that image again later in another situation. Ah, that image appears once more. Now what I'm curious is what would you call something like that? Seems to be popping up over and over again. Oh, wait a minute. I didn't really catch that real well. Could you repeat that please? Okay, it's like, It's a little deep. Okay, it's like come down on stage. Come down on stage, Peter and Matthew's saying. Okay, okay, I'm walking down the street. Whoa, somebody jostles me on either side. Oh, it's this old farmer, this old man who sort of looks a little bit disgruntled at me. I keep walking around. Maybe I go into a baseball game. I sit down on the bleachers, get ready to enjoy myself. Excuse me, excuse me. And there's a gentleman lets me get by and I walk down the bleachers a little bit longer. Later on, this man catches my eye. It's the same man that I saw before jostled me on the street. So this recurring image, what would you call that? Would you call that some sort of rhyme since it's a recurring character? Okay, I see what you mean now. Whoa, I'm a little blown away here. That's a real interesting thing that you bring up. I'd like to explain real clearly. I look at videotapes completely from beginning to end and then I can catch certain things as I'm going through and then I can start to explain them. When you give me something here, I'm sort of taking it back because I can't watch you again and again to see what you're doing. Now, with Peter Cook's explanation of what he just did, it looks like a visual expression. I tend to come up with things very quickly and what he just did didn't seem really like signed to me. That was more my ASL and I think it's using more of a classifier imagery and it seems that it's a shady delineation of category there but in poetry, when we analyze the signs, that's what we're talking about with ASL poetry. It seems to be different. If we analyze Peter Cook's work, that seems to be a whole different form, a whole different set of rules for his particular kind of work. Okay, I think I eliminated some very important information here. Okay, of these four categories, handshapes, movement, facial expression, these three. We might emphasize non-manual signals or emphasize handshake but they're real different and they explain different things. Does that help explain it? Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, look. They're all so different so it depends upon how much emphasis you place on in a particular one. You know, you may use all of them and you may mix them all up and find them in different combinations. Ah, excuse me for interrupting but suppose you see something with no facial expression. Would you call that poetry? If you're absolutely blank face, excuse me, poetry, poetry, poetry, however you want to sign it or spell it, is that poetry without any facial expression? If it was done on purpose, sure, I would call that poetry. You'd have to if the person's a lousy signer and that's the reason they don't incorporate those features, then I wouldn't call it poetry. Okay, yeah, so why not? Why can't you call that poetry? No, but I'd like to make a comment about something. My personal opinion and for my personal perspective is I depend on the spoken word, spoken word and sound and it must be perfect. It must be absolutely perfect for it to be that particular kind of poetry and it must be understandable as well. So it must have both of those restrictions fulfilled for the sound. Now, if we're looking at a pantomime and gesture, perhaps those are different sorts of things to add to the movement parameters that you're talking about. If things are scrambled and they're wrong, then the signed word won't be understood. Now, sound itself has rhythm and has rhyme. Now, I understand from your lecture that perhaps what you're saying is that poetry in sign language has a sort of a rhyme too and that's what I'm understanding from what you've said today so far. Right, right, I'd like to respond. But can all four of those parameters you mentioned be included at the same time? I'm feeling that as we go through all the different things that you talked about, it seems like all the linguistics are there, but I wonder if all these things happen at the same time. Do all these parameters always happen? If you look at the signed cat, do all four of those parameters, are they all in evidence at the same moment as we sign these? I'm wondering, you know, it seems that they have all these characteristics, but the words itself, you know, if you try to analyze it, I'm not sure. It seems to, I would tend to disagree. It doesn't seem like all these elements are always there in sound. Now, sign always does have that element of movement. It has the character, it has the movement, the hand shape. But it doesn't seem to, I mean, I do see that all the things you've shown this afternoon do seem to be in evidence, but I wonder if all those things are there at all times. You may be wondering what we're talking about here. This is from Stokey's notation, up to the current notation, Lydell and Johnson. Stokey's time, he believed that hand shape movement, etc., all occurred at the same time. They were all simultaneous. And then his research has shown an understanding that it's different. Lydell and Johnson have found that it does not occur simultaneously. Like with brother, do all these happen simultaneously? No. The sign brother has three separate pieces to it, a hold, a movement, and a hold. And the hand shape is different as well. We don't have all of these things occurring simultaneously. So we can divide them up and segment them, and it shows a sequence. It's the same with other languages. So that's what Lydell and Johnson's point was. Right, but see, I disagree with that idea, and it seems a little convoluted to me. It must be a raging battle, huh? Debbie's asking, now, about your talking about line division. If I can, the rules of line division apply to, from a hearing point, can it also apply to my work? If I look in terms of a sentence or a line, suppose I'm using an image that I'm signing, and I use it in stanzas of two, and I have the images reiterating, such as the leaves falling or something like that. Now, would that be considered one line or two lines? Is that what you mean? Yes, exactly. I've seen your work, and I've seen everyone's work, and you all have these characteristics. I've been noticing them in all of you. It just takes a lot more analysis to explain it in depth. Sure is, like a scientific research. Really, really. It's really a rare art to do all this scientific analyzation of it. Do you feel that this kind of research will help you and perhaps preserve our poetry more, or perhaps use it on videotape? Would you prefer videotaping this? Yeah, I didn't quite catch that. Okay, do you feel that videotape will help us preserve it? It's like, maybe we'd be able to develop a new way to document more accurately the things that you're discovering. Okay, I understand your question. First of all, we need to develop the poetry and then videotape it and look for all of these things that occur. Is that what you're saying? We'll see, I'm curious. When you choose to put down the rules or... This really is a good tool to use, it seems like. When we discuss rhyme, we find that it's there, but it may be difficult to tease out and hard to see specifically. I've felt it all at sea with this for a long time when I first started researching this. And then I found that I needed a different tool or whatever when I started... See, when I started looking at the overall picture, this is only just one speck of information in the whole field that we could study. So there's just one area that we're looking at here. Ooh, I'm a little overwhelmed here. Okay, I've gotten your point. I thought I was totally lost here. I'm a little nervous. Okay, now I understand. Oh, that brings to mind so many ideas. If one pops up, there's no time to run to the closest video camera, so I would try to write it down, of course, not write it down in this type of notation. Maybe two or three words to help me capture that idea and help me remember what it is. Like, for example, oh, I don't know, like... Oh, the cave that I recently performed on Thursday night. That cave to me, and I simply put down the word cave, and that helped me remember my whole concept. I still could remember essentially what I was doing and just to jot down that simple word, you know, spur in my memory. So it seems like it's an incredibly complex system to use for the notation. Okay, later when I find time, I will sit down in front of a video camera and videotape myself. Does putting down this sort of notation help you remember it or is it just for research purposes or what? Oh, no, no, I guess I was really off the point there. The notation is simply for research purposes. So really putting it down isn't the point? Excuse me, could you repeat that question again, Matthew's saying I need to shadow it? I'm lost, I'll tell you honestly. Maybe she hasn't answered for you. Alice says, would you mind if I respond to that question? I have an answer for that. Somebody asked me that question at noon and asked me if I'm able to write down the poetry if I just gloss it or if I use a certain kind of notation to transcribe it, to put that on paper and what would I call that? And what do I put down to help remember me? And I simply use gloss. Everybody has their own, you know, but for me I use that, I use a gloss translation and if we're doing that, really I do. And that's my personal preference, of course. Now, using it to create poetry, I'm not sure that might be a different thing. Okay, yeah, they're really separate issues. The analysis and the scientific approach is afterward. The art is different. You know, the art is when I come up with the idea and I might write down a gloss or videotape myself. But the use of the notation is to study it afterwards and when I put them both together, then I can find the rhyme and how do I prove this by the use of the notation and by mapping it out and seeing what falls through. So this is the scientific approach to study this. I think what you was just asking, do you think it's possible that perhaps in the future somebody might come up with a more expedient way to notate signs and maybe they'll develop some sort of system of symbols that can do that. Now, in real life, everyday conversation, can that ever be put down? I feel like it's incredibly complex and impossible to do. Maybe it's possible, but somebody would have to devise some way