 This is Stink Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. Bingo! It's our energy policy forum show, Hawaii, the state of clean energy. Guess what Sharon Moriwaki co-chair of the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum is here with us today. It's co-host. I'm so happy about that. And we have Hawaiian Electric too. Okay. We have Brennan Morioka. He is the general manager, I get this right, the general manager of the electrification of transportation at Hawaii. Yeah. Just a lot of words. He keeps me busy. Okay. Actually, you can put it to music. Do you want to have me try that? Sure. Sure. You right there knows me. Maybe I'll hum along. Jimmy Yao. He is the director of electrification of transportation. No words. No words. Okay. Yeah. All right. And they know each other. Yeah. So we're here to sort of examine the continuum of developing electric transportation in Hawaii. And it has become a priority or a visible priority where everybody knows and everybody talks about it. And the question is to have it settled down so that when you're out there buying your next $70,000 SUV, maybe you think twice and get something electric. Hopefully. Yeah. So what's the condition of the state initiative on electrifying transportation? Well, you know, there continues to be a lot of discussion, right? I mean, a lot of people talking both at the state level, all four counties have entered the discussion about clean transportation. And there's different forms of clean transportation and not all of it is just having to be electric because there's other types of alternative fuels that are considered clean. But you know, Hawaiian Electric's focus is on the customer side where we can provide a service and that's on the electric side. So electric vehicles. And whenever people talk about electric EOT or electrification of transportation, most people automatically go to, well, it's about electric vehicles or electric cars. But EOT is far more than that. It's also about electric buses, electrifying operations on our harbors and the ports, electrifying equipment at the airports, you know, the ground service equipment that moves your baggage and the tug and toes that push the planes. But it's really looking at just the transportation sector because, you know, we talked in the past about how we talk about increasing our reliance or decreasing our reliance on imported fossil fuels, increasing our energy security. And we do that by the reduction of the use of gasoline or oil. And when people look at Hawaiian Electric, it's primarily, well, how do you, you know, reduce the amount of oil that you use to make electricity? And in the big picture, that only amounts to about 28% of the total petroleum used in Hawaii, whereas 61% of the petroleum used here in Hawaii is for transportation purposes. So if we're serious about energy security, if we're serious about providing a cleaner environment by reducing carbon emissions, we really need to kind of take a step back and start talking about where we might have the most impact. And that's in the transportation sector. So Hawaiian Electric, about a year and a half ago, really took that step forward. Hawaiian Electric's been working on electric vehicles for almost a little over a decade, which is also why you have Jimmy Yao here. He's probably our most experienced person at Hawaiian Electric working in the electric vehicle field. But Hawaiian Electric made that commitment on focusing on bringing the resources within the company to focus on electrification or transportation. How do we reach out to the transportation sector, which historically hasn't been a partner with the, or the energy sector. So it's kind of been nice for me to kind of marry some of my background in transportation with the, the energy sector. So, yeah, no, it's been a great experience so far. Yeah. So Jimmy, what is this about since you've been studying, you've been studying electric cars since 1922, wasn't it? Sure, okay. Yeah. You see that growing after this, and what, what are some of the changes? Well, definitely. I mean, if you look at what's happening, it's, it's, it's been a real great growth. So the first electric vehicle that mass-produced electric vehicle hit Hawaii in 2011, right? You bought your car in 2011, right? Yeah. You look at now, the state is over 7,000 electric vehicles registered. 7,000, okay. And then this year also, you saw, you see the growth pattern just electric vehicles. But this year, hopefully you've seen the press and, and the electric buses pilot running around town. So the sky's the limit here. There's going to be fits and starts though, because of the, you know, the, the money involved in the change. For example, I mean, it's just, it's just a, while you were talking, I was thinking that, you know, I first learned early on when I started getting involved with the Energy Policy Forum and Sharon, I realized, and this conversation with Peter Rasek who taught me a lot, that, that the nature of the utility has got to change around green energy in many ways. Many, many ways. It's a, it's a complete reorganization, a re, re, re-thinking, if you will. And you know, one of the things that you have to realize is that if you take all those cars out there, there's a million cars out there, and you make them all electric, then pretty much, aside from the guys who have special setups on their roofs, you're going to have to get your, your power for the car from the utility. And Right. If the utility is, is burning fossil fuel, then you, you really, you know, it's bad trade-off because you're burning fossil fuel to get the electricity. Is that really moving to green? It's not really. So, what, what that means is that in this transition, in this continuum we're talking about, you have to move the generating system to green also if you want to get where you want to go. And this, now this means that the utility more than you ever imagined has got to be green. And the utility has got to change to, you know, to wrap around these, these million cars. That's what we're talking about here. This is a major thing. Right. I hope you're a very young man because I think you have a, a long shore ahead of you, Brad. Well, I got, I got three kids in private school right now and then they got to go to college. So, I, I got to be working for a long time anyway, so I'll, I'll be around. Yeah. And no, but you're, you're absolutely right. And that's why electrification of transportation is just one aspect of a lot of the different things that the utility that Juan electric, Maui electric, Hoie electric light, we're all moving in the same direction to number one, achieve the 100% renewable portfolio that the state has set for 2045. Our goal is to hit that by 2040. And the utility has done what's called the grid modernization plan, which was approved by the PUC. We've submitted and got in the PUC approval for our power supply improvement plan also that has now been renamed into our integrated grid planning process. And all of that takes into account other types of initiatives and technology. So electrification of transportation is one, because everything is based on how do, how does the utility now, instead of burning oil to produce energy, how do we accept, either create on our own or accept from others clean renewable energy into the grid and service all of our customers. And so electrification of transportation is one, demand response is another initiative and technique or technology. And then also distributive energy, which is a lot of your solar and wind. Yeah. So it all plays into the transportation because if you're feeding electricity back to the grid, you know, the utility is essentially getting it from homeowners or wherever these utility scale affordable tech arrays that are growing up now. That is the source of power that would go to these cars. And it makes it possible. So you know, I can see the whole, I can visualize the whole thing is changing. And by 2040, that's a pretty ambitious goal. Yeah, we think so. But I think everything that the utility has been doing is really showing the kind of commitment and progress towards those goals. And so it's nice to be a part of that kind of initiative. I know a lot of people talk about, well, you know, we're trying to green up transportation, green up the kind of cars that we drive, but you're still burning fossil fuels and creating carbons, carbon particulates by the power that's generated in order to provide the electricity for those green cars, which is true today. But as we continue to see the utilities, the amount of renewable energies in the utilities portfolio, that is quickly ramping up pretty fast. So that scenario, that situation where it takes dirty energy to power these cars compared to clean energy not in the not so distant future, that argument is completely going to flip upside down. And so for us, we need to be ready for that. When we do have a system that is purely 100% renewable, we also want all the other things that are tied to it. You have to move on both sides of the equation. It can't be done in sequence. It needs to be done concurrently and together. And so that's how we're really attacking this situation. I see two things. One is the Moriwaki problem, which we mentioned earlier, which is getting a charging station in your condo, or your home, or in your neighborhood. And I think there's some obstacles to that. We should talk about it. I think really it's a critical piece in this puzzle, because you've got to encourage people. And one of the ways you encourage people is a lot of charging stations. And in Hawaii, we can do that. You know, Hawaii is really open to this. Not everybody, but a lot of people are open to it. And when you compare the number of people who are agreeable, amenable to green energy and paying for it here, as opposed to the mainland, hey, on the mainland, they're not nearly as excited about green energy as we are. We are really the leaders by attitude, anyway. And really that's why we talked about the road map that we submitted to the PUC in March. And the road map really tried to identify many of the obstacles towards electric vehicle adoption. And because our initial goal is, number one, increase the number of electric vehicles on our roads, so increase the adoption here in Hawaii, and also parlay that into greater benefits and savings to all of our customers, whether you own an EV or not. And so we've identified public outreach and education as one of the major things that we need to be tackling, because there's a lot of information out there that is either incorrect or just absent that people need to have in order to make more informed decisions when they're choosing to buy an EV or not. But also, how do we assist government and private sector entities that are looking to convert buses to the electric buses? Because there is a lot of momentum there. And then also, you know, where folks like Sharon who want to buy an EV or have an EV but live in a condominium unit who can't readily or easily have access to a charging unit. And so multi-unit dwellings, workplace charging are all things that we've identified as obstacles towards EV adoption where we want to work with our partners at the state level, the county level in the private sector on finding solutions for that. So that's kind of where we are right now in terms of trying to push these initiatives forward. But a lot of it is going to be establishing and creating those partnerships that, because we're not going to, it's a really a cock-hole thing, right? We're not going to be able to do it all by ourselves. There's many things that we can take the lead on, or we should take the lead on, but we need help. I see you guys as leaders on this. Absolutely. Who else, really? And we want to take the lead, but we also know that we need help. We're not going to be able to do it alone. We're going to need policy reforms. We're going to need people, statutes, organizations. It is legislation requiring that every new condo has charging stations for every owner who parks there. There's a lot of discussion right now on revising building codes, especially for new construction. There's talk about having to retrofit a lot of older stuff too. But I think we also need to approach it in a more balanced way also, because there are cost implications. We may have unintended consequences for various things that we think might be good. So a healthy discussion on a lot of this is very important. We can have it right here, friend. Absolutely. Hey, I've got a long time. We can do it. Jimmy, what do you think we need to get my wife to buy an electric vehicle? Because she's an old fashioned type, fossil fuel person. So it's actually really interesting. A lot of people in the EV industry say the no more way to get someone to believe electric vehicles get themselves in the driver's seat and try. Has your wife ever driven an electric vehicle before? No. Has she been in one? I don't know the answer. So I mean, it's amazingly when they get in, I think there's a misconception of what an electric vehicle is. But they're very quick. They're very quiet. They're very smooth. No oil in the garage. They're easy to maintain. So that's the number one thing to try to get. In fact, I think this weekend there's a ride and drive at Salt and Kakaako. You should bring her down. Yeah. Well, I've got to go to the charity road. The charity one. Visitor industry charity one, isn't it? I hope you're there, sure. Maybe you can always walk over to Salt and Kakaako. Salt and Kakaako. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure. Well, I think it's really interesting that the millennial generation, they believe in green energy, but they don't necessarily believe in cars. So you have an interesting kind of, you have different factors in play here. You have these what do you call it, car share arrangements, which some millennials and some other people too, not all of the whole world is millennials. I have trouble with that, but there it is, there you have it. But they like the car share thing because they don't need a car all the time. And parking is hard and traffic is hard. And you just get it when you want it and it's pretty appealing. Assuming you can get it when you want it. And I think that'll be more sophisticated, to be more software, allow you to do it. So all of a sudden, you have car ownership, maybe second in the backseat. And then you have Uber. I think Uber is a major force on this. I mean, some people swear by Uber, even though they're under attack in the city council. Watch Bill 35. Anyway, we'd like to put Uber out of town. But Uber is a factor. It's sort of like car share. You don't have to own a car. And some people just take Uber everywhere because it's half the price of a taxi. And it's available in one minute. It's amazing. It's like a magic wand. So that's another, and then of course, you have autonomous vehicles coming down the pike. Despite that accident with whoever, who did that? I think that was maybe Uber or Tesla, some accident. But I'm lying is that they're working hard to develop it now. And they're developing software that's going to be safe and reliable. And so when you put all that together, you get cars that you don't have to own and cars that you can snap your finger and it's there, like in the movies. And then it takes you wherever you tell it to take you. It's like miracles happening in our generation. I don't know how that's going to affect this, but it's going to have some effect. Sure. And all of that is really taking into consideration as a part of our electrification or transportation roadmap. We look at autonomous vehicles. We are looking at our partnerships with the TNC companies like Uber and Lyft. Car shares needs to be a part of that discussion and whether those cars can be electric cars as well. And how do we as a utility help service that by providing maybe public charging infrastructure? But we also need to look at the broad spectrum of the demographic of mobility. It's not just about the millennials, like you say. It's about all age groups and how they choose to go from one place to another. And just because you're older, maybe a senior citizen, that doesn't mean you can't participate in the electrification movement because that's where we have electric buses. Many seniors catch buses. Students catch buses. So if we can look at that kind of thing. And then when you talk about the millennials, their philosophy or their culture is a little different, right? It's a little bit more of the sharing environment or sharing culture where car share, ride share, have become more important to them, even bike share. So electric bicycles are also becoming very much more popular. Especially on the mainland, I think you're starting to see some of it trickled down here in Hawaii as well. So when we look at what we can electrify from a transportation perspective, we're looking at the whole gamut of things. So what is the road map? I like road maps. I'll give you a road map. A road map would take us to a place for rest once in a while, like a break. OK, so the road map so far has taken us to a place where we're going to have a break. So watch this. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. Living in this crazy world, so far up in the confusion, nothing is making sense for me. The host of Business in Hawaii. We broadcast every Thursday from 2 to 2.30, and we highlight successful businesses in Hawaii. Hawaii has some challenges. Most places do. But we have businesses here that have figured out how to make it work, and we learn their secrets, and we learn how they have made it successfully in Hawaii. Occasionally, we'll have organizations that come on and explain how they help these businesses to be successful, and we find that there's an awful lot of resources out there available to anybody in business to help them do better. So please tune in every Thursday from 2 to 2.30, here at the Think Tech Studios, and get educated. Oh, that was restful. That was a break. Now, we're back to Hawaii, the state of clean energy by the Energy Policy Forum with Brennan Morioka, Jimmy Yao, and also Sharon Moriwaki, co-chair, co-host. So you had some questions before the break. I did. And could you proceed with that, Ms. Co-Chair? I like roadmaps. I like planning ahead so that you know what you need to get to where you want to go. So I'd like to know, what is your road map, who was involved in it, and where is it supposed to go? What is the destination for your road map? Well, and the road map is really the result of a lot of collaboration by a number of stakeholders. Actually, when we do different presentations about electrification of transportation, one of the slides we like to show is one with all the different logos of all the different entities and businesses that were actually a part of our workshops, one-on-one meetings. And so we started late last year and started the process to really get feedback. We went in with almost a blank sheet of paper. I mean, we kind of had some ideas of what we thought we wanted in there, or our perception of what the challenges were. But we really wanted our partners to feel like they were the ones helping us develop it from scratch. And so we had a big workshop in November where we had almost 100 participants from a variety of sectors, energy sector, the utility sectors, car manufacturers, a lot of them in the transportation sectors. And so we had a really good dialogue. And we really asked the questions about what do you think needs to happen in order for greater adoption of electric vehicles to occur. And when we say vehicles, we're not just talking about just cars. We're talking about buses or larger vans and that kind of things. And so we worked through it through the end of the year. It's submitted in March. Came out with a number of really telling things was electrification and transportation, number one, helps in assisting the state achieve 100% RPS by helping with greater integration of renewable energy into our system. The second one is it helps to reduce or reduce our dependency on fossil fuels and provides a cleaner environment because the more electric vehicles we have on the road, the less carbon emissions, the less fuel we use. Therefore, you have greater energy security by less importation of fossil fuels. And it keeps it, lets us keep a lot of the money here as well, right? We talked a little bit about how much money actually goes or is exported out of the state just to purchase. Speaking of money, I don't think there are enough charging stations. And I think charging stations ought to be a profitable investment. In other words, if I have or buy a gas station, I should put a charging station on my gas station. There's a lot of points around the city, the state, where gas stations could serve the function of being both. And the question is, can I do that and make a return on my investment for the charging station, which is going to cost some money? Not only in the apparatus, the devices, but in wiring it, I suppose, and getting the power. So I've always felt that there should be some kind of thing in the legislature or in the business practice in the state, maybe something the utility could actually encourage somehow, where I could go with my buddies and form a hui or a tan emoji thing and buy a lot and either have an existing gas station on it or not. And then I go and I invest in charging stations on that location. Now, at first, I may not make any money at all. But if there are more than, what, 7,000 electric vehicles that need to charge as time goes by, if you get closer to 2040, I'll make more money. And there'll be competition, too, because the guy in the next block, I suppose, he could charge less than me and so forth. There's a whole range of possibilities here. But merely to have them every five miles is really not enough to encourage me and my wife to feel really comfortable in driving an electric car around town. Not only want to have no range anxiety, I want to be happy. I want to feel that I'm covered on every block, like with a gas station. So what can we do? Can we make a business model, a plan, an incentive, an encouragement for people to give them some return on their investment? I think it's kind of interesting the analogy of gas station to electric vehicles. So first, there's some analogies and there's some that aren't. So the interesting thing about electric vehicles is, as opposed to a gas car, you have to go to a gas station in public car. So with an electric vehicle, you can basically charge a car anywhere there's electricity. So there's a little bit of a paradigm shift there. So not every single person needs to go to some public destination to charge the car. There's a flexibility that they can charge at home. So most people right now charge at home. Is that right? Yeah. So the business case is a little bit different. But similar to us when we're putting in our DC fast charging stations for the public use, and similar to how the gas station models are. So gas stations now, they don't really make that much money off selling gasoline. It's really the synergy between the gasoline and the mini model that's paired with it. So some of the things that we try to look for are locations where there's a strip mall or something like that to give someone something to do. Because unlike gasoline, you're there for five minutes and then you're gone. Or the electric vehicle charging you're there for fast charging you're there typically maybe half an hour. So we would look for those opportunities. It is kind of interesting. So there are certain companies that have looked at electric vehicle charging and how it brings in customers. One of the big ones internationally is Target. So Target has. Yeah, Target stores. So they pair with a certain charging station manufacturer because they know for every minute a customer is in their store how much revenue it brings in. They also know typically how long a customer stays in that store. So what they do is they provide two hours of free charging if you want to charge because they'll bring in a certain amount of revenue. After two hours, they figure you're no longer there. If your car's still over there, then they charge you a certain amount of money because they figure you're at the other store. That's a good idea to control abuse. Right. So it's a little bit different, I think, when you look at the business case for electric vehicle charging. Yeah, this is a young group of guys that have, I forget the name of this operation, but they make a deal with the shopping centers. Volta, Volta. Wasn't it Volta? Volta, the one where you put ads on the show. We've had them on the show. Yeah, we have. And smart guys and they know how to make a deal with the shopping center and then put your shopping there, you put ads on there. And you can charge free. And nobody really stops you from leaving your car their whole day. And they get their revenue out of this gizmo where there's advertising. They get advertising revenue and they pay for the electricity. But I mean, there's lots of different business models. And I think the more models, the more people, the more investing, the more charging stations, the better we'll all feel, even if we're oversupplied at least for a while. So why don't the service stations, the problem is space. So if you had a service station with gas lead on one side and they may in 2045 go out of business with gas, then why not start developing EVs somewhere on the station lot so that you can transition into electricity? And actually there is a big movement by many of the petroleum companies to look at renewable and clean energy as well. Many of them have their own actual clean energy arms. And so they have begun some conversations with us. And so we have some discussions with them on some of their specific locations. I think some of them are, they're seeing the change and the reduction in amount of oil or gasoline that people are gonna be purchasing in the future and they wanna start changing their business model today. But also like Jimmy said, they also understand the behavior of electric vehicle drivers and they are gonna be parked there for a certain period of time. I'm probably not gonna wanna park someplace that doesn't have anything for me to do. So I'm gonna go and find a public charger that maybe has a retail store like a Starbucks. It's called the Starbucks model. And so many of the gasoline stations who do have these mini-marts, they are looking at what they can do to enhance that experience and then put a charger there because if they're gonna start attracting people to charge at their gas station instead of gas, they want them much like Target thinks that once you get into my store, you're gonna be sending money. Same thing for the gas station, right there. And you're not gonna be buying gas but you're gonna be spending money on Twinkies or whatever you're gonna, a hot dog or something. The funny thing is that technology will always change and move and get better, hopefully. So it's really interesting. You can get into that model and you can have the Starbucks kind of experience on the notion that it takes 20 minutes or something for a fast charger to fill up your tank. And then they could come out with a charger that would charge you in 30 seconds. And now you have the rug pulled out from under you on that model. But I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon. It might actually happen a lot sooner than you think. I mean, our fast chargers, like Jimmy said, charges a Nissan Leaf in about 30 minutes. The Europe and some places on the mainland are having them down to 10 minutes. Maybe their goal is to get it down to five. So what that does to the utility, we kind of need to figure that out too. So for us, it's a matter of understanding what the market is, where it is, and then how can we better plan to service our customers. Well, that's the role of utility in a whole initiative that's going green is to follow the technology, because it's always changing. And the customer, the range anxiety. So even another business you could start is a roving EV station, right? Because when you're on the road, there's AAA doesn't come to help you, right? And when I call, I say, oh no, we don't do that. But if you had a truck that goes around and it plugs you in, you charge for that. But at least you're not stranded on the highway. There's nothing you can do. But didn't you install something called Moby? I don't know if it's experimental or what. Moby is a product of free wire and it's a mobile charging unit. Right now, we have one at the airport trade center. It's a slower charge right now. You used to have a faster charging unit there, but they took it back to modify it. But yeah, the technology for that exists, that kind of technology is actually really rapidly changing and growing as well. Because the one that's out there is a fairly big unit. I mean, it's almost a size of a gas dispensary thing. So it's pretty big. Hard to carry it, right? But there are ones that are more like a five gallon or a two gallon fuel canister that most people are used to carrying around. And so that'll give you like a quick charge just enough to get you home. So you can charge your car if it's run on or back. What's it in your truck? Yeah, so technology is changing and so that means business opportunities also change as well. Oh, exciting. It is. And the question is to keep people advised of this so that they can change their attitude and they can get on the road. So you were talking in the break, I guess, it was about dealing with the public and trying to take the temperature of the public. What is the temperature of the public and what do you think the pressure points are? You know, the arguments or the actions you can take. For example, if I gave you a bigger credit, a resumption of the state credit for buying electric cars, I'm sure you'd see the charts shoot right up. Even my wife even. But we'll get in there, Jeff. We'll get in there, yeah. Have her on the show. We are, sure we will, yeah. So what do you think, what do we have to do to, you know, what's the condition of the public and what are the pressure points? I think there's two, one is obviously price and the second one is this concept of range of anxiety, how far can you drive? So as far as prices going, prices are getting lower. You know, horn electric or rolling out programs through us to lower the price. There's rebates and such through the dealership, through the car manufacturer to lower that initial price. The prices are going down. So the industry is saying that in the year 2025 there should be price parity between an electric vehicle and a gas car. So at some point, that whole issue hopefully should go away. The second part now is then the range anxiety. And I think some of that is misconception. So some of the earlier cars, they have a little bit lower range. It's still probably adequate for most people in Hawaii. But now, so Brandon just recently bought a 2018 car and it has 150 miles of range. So for most people, let's get it. That's a leaf, that's a leaf. I love the car. It's hugely, much more range than before. 150 compared to the early Leafs, which was about what, 77 miles. So I really don't have to charge every day. I can charge once every three or four days and still have more than adequate charge to get wherever I need to go during the day. And I live Kaniyohi, so it's not just a simple drive around town. That's better than my cell phone. Better than my watch even. So they can't retrofit the old cars. You have to just buy a new car. Even the batteries that you put in. So Sharon, I hate to tell you this. I always hate to tell you this, but I do tell you this pretty much every week. It's time for us to go now. Oh, it was too fast. And it's your job as a co-host to summarize everything that Brandon and Jimmy have said and try to bring a message out of it. Go now. Oh, well I'm really excited because I was there in the first time, putting it in a condo. But with having a roadmap and doing the kinds of things you're doing and really bringing transportation into clean energy, you folks are in the leadership role. So I really think, Jimmy, thank you for staying the course and Brandon for joining as general manager to bring the businesses involved. Because unless the businesses from all the sectors, I was going to ask about tracking industry as well, is how do you bring that to everybody is comfortable driving an EV and having that. Speaking at the Hawaii Transportation Association's annual conference to talk to all the heavy truckers about those opportunities in the future. Because they're the heavy users. But thank you and you have to come back, give us updates as you go along. Any time, I'm absolutely happy to come back. Okay, great. Thank you, Brandon Morioka, Jimmy Yao. Thank you so much, you guys. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Yeah.