 Hello Psych2Go viewers, our guest for today's livestream is Jonathan Decker. Jonathan is a licensed marriage and family therapist with a master's degree in family therapy and a bachelor's in psychology. He is the clinical director of the Trauma Healing Clinic Mended Light, and he is the founder and host of two amazing YouTube channels, Cinema Therapy and Mended Light. Welcome Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us today. Hello, and thank you for having me. Sorry, if you hear it, it sounds like my computer is dying. It's a driver issue, but we're good. It goes like for about 30 seconds when we start and then we're fine. See, now it's all in peace. No problem, you're good. I can't even hear it anymore. OK, good. That's good. So hello, thanks for having me today. Of course, I love your channel. I'm a big fan of both. They're amazing. And I just love how you combine media and movies with mental health. I think that's so interesting and unique. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's a I have this I have this intense love of cinema that wouldn't leave. You know, I decided to become a therapist instead of a filmmaker or an actor. And so I thought, well, I can leave this behind. And it just was there gnawing at me all the time. And I thought, what am I supposed to do with this? And my wife likes to say you have your passions for a reason, right? That if there's something inside you that won't leave you alone, then it's meant to it's meant to go out into the world or it's meant for you to create it just for yourself. But it can't just stay inside and not you got to do something with it. So this is what we did. I love that because it's very relatable. Other people feel like maybe they have to give up a hobby or something because of their career where you really don't have to. You can find ways of like incorporating it all. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So for starters, can you tell us what inspired inspired you to become a mental health content creator and a little bit about your background? Yeah, so I was born and raised in Arizona and had a very nurturing, empathetic mother. I mean, I have a very kindhearted father, but my empathy, my compassion, the the skills that I put to use in therapy are very much her. She didn't have a degree in counseling, but she was always the person that people called for a listening ear for good advice. And she was just naturally gifted at connecting with people and helping them to resolve their problems or helping them to feel seen and loved and heard. And I think I inherited that from her. But in high school, I, you know, made movies with my friends. And when I got to college, I thought, OK, do I go into film or do I go into therapy? And I decided to go into therapy. And so how did I start making content where I blend the two? It really came down to I used to use movie clips in presentations and I use movie clips in courses that I would teach in the community relationship courses. There's a course called How to Avoid Falling in Love with a Jerk based on the book, based on the book by the same name. I was a certified facilitator of that. But I would pepper it with clips from the office or, you know, clips from Star Wars or all sorts of stuff to drive home the points. And I saw really clearly that mental health constructs and theories and modalities, the language of academia, in my opinion, kind of suffocates the heart and soul of psychology. And what I mean by that is there's how and I don't mean to disparage academia, obviously, the research that people do helps millions of people. But I don't know your average person who is going to pick up a journal, an academic journal and really dig into it and and get what they need out of it. There has to be some sort of translation mechanism between academia and the mainstream. And when I was using movie clips to teach these concepts, I realized that that makes the abstract more concrete. People can see what it looks like, right? If they can see characters going through it, it's the reason why we connect so much to stories. It's the reason why we learn so much from the journeys of these characters is because we want to vicariously experience something that is healing for us or that is helpful for us. The issue with movies, of course, is that even when they get it right, they take something that takes years and condense it down to two hours. And so we have to be realistic about what the journey actually looks like. But that that's the power of it. And I feel like my talent and I don't say this with any sort of boasting because I think we all have talents and gifts and we all have weaknesses. And I've been to so many academic conferences where I thought. I could never come up with this level of research, this level of intricacy, this level of of quality, but I could probably present it better because I have a background in standup comedy, right? And so and so and so when it comes to taking this material and having it reach people in a way that lands, that that's kind of where this all came together. And Alan, who if you watch Cinema Therapy, he's my co-host, he's my best friend. We, you know, we were college roommates and I just knew we'd done some films together. He had, I knew I couldn't pull off a show because we're looking at creating basically a half an hour television show every week. But I knew he had the talent and he had the skills and he had the know-how from his years in the film industry to produce this thing. And I also knew he would be just we were good on camera together. And so that's where all this kind of came together. That's amazing because what you do is educational, but it's relatable. Like you make it in a way that's relatable and people can connect with it instead of it being like academic jargon kind of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's the idea is we're trying to entertain people into learning something. Oh, my gosh, that's my wife, Alicia. She calls it edutainment, right? That's that's our brand of what we're doing is edutainment. And I grew up with Bill Nye, the science guy. You know, I grew up with these other figures, Mr. Rogers, these people that you learn things, but you didn't it didn't feel like learning. And that's the thing is learning should be exciting. It should be emotionally involving. It should be applicable in day to day life. And sometimes in our in our quest to. To be intelligent, we suck the life out of it, right? And so we're trying to put life back into it. I can relate to that being in grad school. Yeah, yeah. So thank you for that. So tell me, tell me really fast. What are you studying? A public administration. Oh, cool. And public policy. OK, there's a lot of good work that needs to be done there. Exactly. To make a major difference. Where are you studying? USC. Nice. OK. Yeah, I've been to USC campus before. And that's really nice. It's super nice. Yeah. And as I as our cause there, because the Gottmans were presenting. And yeah, no, I like to see a lot very cool. So awesome. Yeah. So let's do this thing. What do you got? Let's do this. OK, first starters, based on your expertise as a therapist, how do you define a toxic relationship in general? I think what makes we have to be careful because that word is thrown around so much now that anytime someone loses their temper or acts selfish for a time or is petty, we may be quick to label that relationship toxic. But if that's the case, all relationships are toxic and that's we're human. And I think the issue is speaking of that class, how to avoid falling in love with a jerk. What's the difference between a jerk and someone who acts like a jerk? It's it's consistency and degree, right? OK. And so a relationship to me is toxic. Not if it has not if it has ugly moments, but one, how consistent are things miserable? And prohibitive to growth and prohibitive to to what's the word I'm looking for? Self actualization and what makes a relationship toxic is do I feel we get into relationships to feel safe, respected and loved? And what happens if a relationship over a prolonged period of time we don't feel safe, respected and loved? And not only that, but there are people in the relationship who are not showing accountability or humility or willingness to change and effort to change. Right. And so a healthy I think we can say what's toxic by talking about what's not toxic. What's not toxic is a relationship where I feel supported in my dreams. What's not toxic is a relationship where I feel like I'm seen and understood and desired for who I am. What's not toxic is finding that sweet spot between I'm accepted for who I am, but I'm growing into a better version of me. Right. Oh, yeah. Because there's a difference between I am who I am, my tastes, my desires, my preferences, my interests. They are what they are, and I'll always be this person. But I can within that become the better version. And someone trying to say who you are doesn't work. Who you are needs to change on a fundamental level. Right. There's big difference. And I would say the second one is indicative of a toxic relationship. A toxic relationship looks like gaslighting. It looks like blame shifting, lies and manipulation. And a toxic relationship looks like. It's not just accountability. We need accountability, but we also need effort. And look, I've seen toxic relationships turn into healthy relationships. That's why I became a couples therapist. Right. I've seen that happen. I've had a hand in that happening. The hard part about that is people see toxic relationships turning into healthy relationships, so they stay in their toxic relationship and think, if I just hold on a little longer. And what I would say is you need to see sincere humility and accountability and effort to change if you're even going to consider staying. And then my last part of this multi-layered answer to your question is it's not it's consistency and it's degree because what I tell people the reason people stay in toxic relationships is because of the good things and the good times. The fact is very few people are all out monsters. Most people want to feel safe, loved and respected and they may go about it in maladaptive ways or they may have learned to be selfish or they may have learned to be hurtful. But we stay because in a toxic relationship, a toxic partner sometimes is sweet, sometimes is kind, sometimes is caring. And for some that's a deliberate manipulation and for others it is sincere. They just don't have their demons under control, right? And so what I tell people is it's not what they're like at their best, it's what they're like at their worst. Wow. Yeah, because we stay because of what they're like at their best, but and so that's, and that's the other question, like what are they like at their worst? Cause... Yeah. Listen, I've made a lot of mistakes in my marriage. There's something on our Mended Light channel, my wife and I are, we've got a new video series called Marriage Problems cause so many people just assume that we had this perfect idealic marriage and that we never fought and that we never, and so we created these new videos to say, well, we're gonna talk candidly, not to air our dirty laundry, but like what we struggle with and what we've learned from it. And so I've made a lot of mistakes in my marriage and I've made a lot of mistakes as a person. But one thing that I have going for me, Alicia says, is that I don't have a mean bone in my body. And so I remember one time I said to her, I'm sorry, I got so mad. And she said, when did you get mad? And I said about, about 10 minutes ago. And she says, that was you mad? And I said, yeah. And she goes, we're gonna be fine, right? So that was... Okay, yeah. So when it, again, you may have somebody who at their worst, they can be rude, condescending, critical, defensive with drawing, but is their worst abusive? Yeah. If their worst is actually abusive, it may not matter what their best is like. That's a good point. It's like, how do they treat you when they're upset? Do they still respect you? Do they cross your boundaries? That's a really good point. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for that. And honestly, I like that you approach it with empathy because even the people who are toxic or who are being like rude, you have to approach it with empathy because they probably have their own traumas. Most likely they do. Yeah. And I don't like to label people toxic even if it's the case because I feel like that denies with that label, it makes it harder for them to shake it. Whereas it's a lot healthier in my opinion to label a behavior as toxic. And I don't like to say, I mean, in cases of abuse, there's good and bad, but a lot of times if you tell a person their behavior is bad, they're gonna defend themselves and tell you why their behavior is good. And so I just like to ask the question, is it working? Most people will defend all day what they're doing is right. But if you ask them if it's working, most people can say, no, it's not. Yeah. And then at that point you can say, let's explore some other options, right? Let's explore some other ways of approaching this. Yeah, well, thank you for that. And I do like what you mentioned about maybe not labeling people because then people live up to that label, right? Yeah. Sometimes. Or it might make them feel like they want to, yeah. Like the fox in Zootopia, right? Right. If I'm always treated like a predator, then, or if I'm always treated like I'm bad, then I'm just gonna be that way. Cause, yeah. Anyways. Right. Thank you for that. And in terms of toxic behavior, in what ways, what are some examples of like crossing boundaries? And in any general sense, like friendships, romantic relationships, like what are some examples of crossing boundaries for people who maybe don't know? I think it's important to recognize, I'm gonna answer that, I'm gonna do a real quick detour that most people want to feel safe, loved and respected. And so most boundary violations are people making a desperate attempt to feel safe, love it and respected or reacting to not feeling that way. And so the best way to not cross over another person's boundaries is to do the work to feel safe, loved and respected by yourself. Because then you're not constantly, because I've been needy and I've been desperate and I've said and done things that were pathetic or rude or demanding, you know, younger me. And I realized it came from a place of insecurity. It came from a place of fear. And so one, when you're dealing with somebody who's crossing boundaries, I'll answer the question of what boundary violations look like, but it's important to draw your boundaries more firmly. And you don't need to judge the person in order to say for yourself, does this work for me or does it not work for me, right? You're not obligated to stay in any relationship. Even relationships like marriage, you know, in cases where, I'm not saying if it's hard leave, I'm saying in cases where you're trying to spend your life with somebody, right? Is this a relationship that is going to be, that is going to help you to become your highest and best self? So boundary violations look like, I mean, the easiest answer is you tell somebody what works for you and what doesn't and they trespass over it. Yeah. You tell somebody what you need to feel safe, loved and respected. And they say, well, what I want matters more. Because a healthy conversation is, oh, that's what you need to feel safe, loved and respected. That's not a fit for me because here's what I need to feel safe, loved and respected. Can we come to some sort of consensus or do we need to either end the relationship or adjust the nature of the relationship so it's now our friendship or with family members? You know, I have family members who are boundary crossers. If it were extreme or abusive, I would cut them out of my life even though they're family because no obligation is worth your mental and emotional health. But other people, I say, okay, we're gonna have a Sunday dinner relationship. You're not gonna get to know my darkest secrets because you cross the boundaries through gossip, right? Or I'm not gonna rely on you as my confidant or I'm not gonna call on you in my hour of need because you've shown that sometimes you'll be there and other times you say you'll be there and then you back out of the last minute, right? What you've shown me is that I can't trust you. Doesn't mean I stopped caring about you. It means now we have Sunday dinner relationship and we chitchat for a couple hours and it's fine and it's loving and it's genuine and it's sincere but it's not as profound as it could be because the trust isn't there. It's like keeping them at an arm's length. Yeah, and I guess I could go into, there are hundreds of examples of what a boundary violation looks like but I think the simple definition like I say is if you say this is what I need to feel safe, loved and respected and the other person repeatedly crosses that line without accountability or effort to change and it takes both because you can have someone who crosses your boundaries a thousand times and they keep telling you they're sorry but they're not trying to be different and I don't know that you need to stay there, right? Exactly, exactly. I like what you mentioned about like you can genuinely like a person but realize that they are not respecting you and that they're crossing your boundaries so you can't have a profound relationship with them. That doesn't mean you hate them, yeah. No, and I don't even have to judge them. I can just say, well, this is where they're at based on their life experiences and their choices. This is what they're able to bring to the table and what they're able to bring to the table makes me feel disrespected, unloved or unsafe. Right, I agree with that. So in terms of, well, I wanted to bring this up because I think this is important and something that people don't always want to talk about may trigger warning, we're going to talk about trauma but how does trauma result in people staying in toxic relationships even when they know they're unhealthy? So here's trauma is for some people it's my world used to feel safe. The people, the world around me, how I experienced life there was a lot of hope and a lot of stability and then that was ripped away by a traumatic act or a series of acts or incidents. For other people, they never had the original I feel safe or I felt safe, right? And so what ends up happening is now my life is fear and when I'm in an unhealthy relationship and I know it's unhealthy and I refuse to get out most often it's because I'm afraid. I'm afraid of what the other person would say or do to me if I tried to leave. I'm afraid of what the other person would say or do to themselves if I tried to leave or they've got me convinced or life experience has me convinced that I can't thrive on my own. I can't survive on my own. I need to be taken care of even if it's by somebody who is hurtful and cruel. I recently read this book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Dr. I think it's Sue Carroll, I can't remember exactly her name but Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And in that book, she talks about most of our fear no matter what the surface of it is comes down to the same thing which is the feeling that I can't handle this and that's why we're afraid. And so the cure is to grow in confidence in your ability to handle things. For some it's self defense classes for others it's financial independence doing online courses or watching videos or whatever or for others is going to therapy and learning how to be emotionally independent. And you get to a place where, okay, I can be on my own now. I don't need this relationship to fulfill me or to feel taken care of. And the problem with abusers, one of many problems with abusers is they're keen on convincing the abused on their own inability to function, right? It's a form of gaslighting, your own inability to think, your own inability to reason, you need me, no one else will ever love you, these types of things. And of course it's not true. And so I really do think the more I do couples therapy and the more I do trauma therapy, the more I think the core of most of our problems is insecurity. Even arrogance and ego in egotistical behavior comes down to insecurity, right? If I have to posture and project how great I am and how in control I am and how I know everything and how I don't make mistakes or this isn't my fault or that's not my fault or look what you made me do. We, it comes across as strength, but it's a counterfeit, right? I'm afraid that people will see my weakness, including me, so I have to bury it so deep that I don't think I have it. Real confidence is owning your mistakes, real confidence is owning your weaknesses and real confidence is trusting in your ability to say, okay, I don't know how to do this, but I'm as capable as anybody and I can learn, right? Exactly. So why do people stay in abusive relationships? I think it's that, I think that's in, excuse me, I think it's that insecurity in a lot of cases and in some cases it's just plain, I don't feel physically safe if I try and leave, right? Like I just- Well, yeah, exactly. In some cases it's not the other, it's almost not the other person's decision, like they're in an abusive relationship or it's deep, like domestic violence. Other case, in other cases though, what you're trying to say or what I'm interpreting it as, are you trying to say it's like a, that fear stems from like a loss of control in some ways? Yeah. Yeah, like a loss of control and maybe a lack of self-love. It's definitely a lack of self-love and the loss of control thing is interesting because people try to counter that by controlling, people around them or controlling their circumstances, but the only thing you really can control and this is the power of it, I can control me. I can control my mind, I can control my emotions. And if it feels like I can't, it's because I haven't learned the right skills and practiced them enough. The fact is it's gonna be rough for a while trying to do that, but any of us can self-soothe, any of us can re-engage when we're calm and clear-headed, any of us can assess a situation and make strategies or any of us can also call in backup and use resources that are available to us to help us get into a good place. And so I'm interested that you said control because we do feel like our lives are out of control but the solution isn't what so many people do, which is to try and control their life or their environment. It's to control themselves, it's to master themselves. Exactly, so like a powerful tool is having a strong sense of self, essentially. It's like a barrier, like I know who I am and I'm not gonna let anyone break me. Yes, and to build on that, I know my worth, right? Wow, yeah, exactly. I know my worth, so a lot of people are in abusive relationships because they believe that's what they deserve. They believe they're trash or they believe that they're lesser or they believe all sorts of negative, false things about themselves. And what I like to tell people, and Alan actually said this in one of our episodes, all, quote him, he says, you're not that special. You're just a sack of meat and bones like the rest of us. And what he meant by that is we, because in the context, I know that sounds harsh, but what the context was is we all have strengths and we all have weaknesses. So either all of us have worth or none of us do because we're all basically the same. Like the strengths take different forms and the weaknesses take different forms. But most people aren't willing to say that their neighbor, their friend, their family member, their loved ones are worthless or that a stranger that they meet is worthless. But they believe that they're worthless. And so Alan's point is what makes you so special that everybody else has worth and you don't. I love that. So like we're all just sacks of meat doing the best we can. So either we all have worth or none of us do. And I choose to believe that we all do. In which case, I don't deserve to be treated poorly because no one does. Right? I don't deserve abuse or neglect because no one does. We all have that innate worth. Alicia and I have created this program because Mended Light is our other YouTube channel and cinema therapy exists kind of like that. The YouTube channel is the business, right? But Mended Light, that channel is kind of a gateway if people choose to get support for trauma. And we have a trauma recovery program and part of that is understanding and embracing your innate worth as a human being and just how crucial that is to- Finding your light. And that's where the name Mended Light comes from is the idea that we all have light within us that we can share, that we can shine, that we can use. And when you experience a trauma, when you experience abuse, when you experience a toxic relationship, oftentimes it feels like that light is flickering or dimming or going out. And so how do we mend that? That's where that name comes from. I love that. And honestly, since you're like the cinema guy, it's funny when you were talking about like we accept the love we think we deserve, that's like perks of being a wallflower. Yes, yes. We accept the love we think we deserve. You know, what's funny is I hadn't seen that movie until last year, because we did it for an episode. And, but I have been teaching that principle. And that's the thing is good ideas don't really originate from any one person. Right. You know, anytime I say something that people think of that was wise or helpful, they're like, did you come up with that? I'm like, kind of. I'm sure others have had that thought. And the only reason I had the thought is because I've read and watched and listened to the thoughts and learnings of so many other people that have stimulated my brain, right? So. Exactly. And do you think going off of that concept of we accept the love we think we deserve, do you think it's almost subconscious sometimes like triggered by maybe traumas or just a subconscious thing. It's not always something that people are aware of. Oh yeah. I think there's a huge disconnect sometimes between our logic and our emotion and what we think and what we feel. Because if you look at brain biology, right? And you look at neural pathways and how these things develop across time, you can have light bulb moments and insights when you grow and mature. But in a high pressure situation or in an emotional situation, you're going to default to childhood. You're going to default to the emotional like, so if I was raised by abusive parents, I may believe I'm worthless and when there's a problem or somebody else is angry, I caused it, right? And I can learn as an adult, excuse me, I might sneeze here on the air. I'm gonna be looking at the lights. It's okay. Excuse me. Bless you. Thank you. I may learn as an adult. No, of course a child's not responsible for the behavior of their parents, right? And no, of course I'm not worthless because everybody has worth. And I may accept that on a logical level, but on the deeper level, emotionally I still feel like I'm worthless because that's what I had from childhood. And so how do we merge the two? Is being aware, is bringing the subconscious into the conscious. Is when you feel triggered, when you feel overwhelmed or flooded or sad or self-loathing, to not just accept your subjective feelings as objective reality, right? And so to be able to say, okay, I feel worthless and that feels 100% true to me, but just because I feel it's true does that mean it actually is true, right? And to be able to challenge it and say, what am I gonna replace that with? I like to compare neural pathways and your psych to go audience knows all about neural pathways, I imagine. Some places I have to explain this more, which is fine, but I like to compare them to hiking trails in the brain, right? And the more a trail gets hiked on, the more well-worn it is, the more naturally, in this case, the neurons, but the more naturally the hikers just tend to gravitate that way. And to create a new trail takes a lot of work and you're naturally gonna gravitate towards what was there before until you use the new trail enough that the old one gets grown over from this use, right? And the brush and everything in the grass covers it. And it's the same way with our thoughts and with our feelings about ourselves. And so it's not enough to have a light bulb moment in most cases. You have to follow up that light bulb moment with continually shepherding the brain, right? Towards the new trail. And towards, I had this insight about who I am and who I want to be in my relationship with the world. And I know it's true cognitively, but emotionally I find myself struggling to believe it. And it just takes practice of deliberate redirecting. And so that's why lists are really handy, like the negative thoughts and the positive thoughts and what you're gonna replace with. And it's not just replacing a negative thought with a positive thought, because if the positive thought is BS, then your brain's gonna reject it. You have to replace it. You have to replace it with a positive thought that's real. And sometimes the positive thought that's real is I can be better. Because if you try and say, let's say I have a problem screaming at my kids, I could tell myself, well, I'm a great dad all day long, but the brain's gonna reject that because it has all of this evidence of these negative experiences. But the positive thought I can replace it with is I have every power within me to be different. And that's empowering. That is empowering. I agree with that. You have to, I think that what people need to understand that a lot of the times, having a strong self identity and strong sense of self and self love is a journey. It's a process. It's not just something that's like this. I mean, maybe for some people it's easy, but for most of us it's a process of learning and it's practice like what you mentioned. Yeah, and self love isn't selfish. And sometimes selfish behaviors, we act selfishly in the name of self love, but what is self love? It's recognizing that other people matter. If I'm going to be there for other people, I have to be there for myself first so I have something in the tank. Like just recently I started disciplining myself to get up because I was feeling old and out of shape and it wasn't the aesthetics of how I looked. It was more just how I felt, right? And I found myself grumpy and irritable and having a hard time focusing. And so lately I've been prioritizing, getting up early and going to the gym. And I tell people exercise for sanity, not for vanity. Like swimsuit season, whatever, the psychologically the reason to exercise is so you're sharp and so you're calm and so you're at peace and so you have the discipline. And just that one simple act has completely changed. It's not completely, that's an exaggeration. It's majorly changed my relationships. It's changed the level of whether I feel resentment towards the people in my life for taking my time, which I shouldn't because I chose to have them in my life. But if I'm not taking care of myself, their very existence is a burden, which they're not. But you know what I mean? And that's, and let me be clear, they're not a burden but I could feel that way about them if I'm not looking after myself. And the beautiful thing about loving yourself, like truly loving yourself, is it allows you to love others more completely. Wow, that's powerful. Could you say that again for everyone in the room? Sure. Sorry, I've got the air vent right underneath me and it's blowing dust particles. That's okay. The best part of loving yourself, of truly loving yourself empowers you to love others. It's like a tool to love others more profoundly, deeply and wholly, right? Yes, because if your life is all about loving others, what I've discovered is sometimes you do that because you want others to validate you or see you as a good person or you want the kickback of their appreciation or their gratitude. And so it's not genuine real love. It's kind of selfish. Whereas if I don't need others to feel that need for me, if I genuinely feel it for myself, then anything they give me in reciprocation is a bonus and it's a wonderful thing. But even if they never do, I know who I am. And it helps me to make sure that my love is actual love instead of I'm quid pro quo, right? More people pleasing. Yeah, yeah. This is only tangentially related to toxic relationships but I think it's talking about how to build a healthy relationship. So we're still on that one. Absolutely. I mean, the positive and the negative, right? This is perfect. So now we're gonna go to the audience question segment. So the first question I have is from Sierra. She asks, what's the best way to intervene when someone you love is in a toxic relationship? You know, that word intervention, we usually use it to mean that you're not able to manage your own life anymore and for your own good, we're taking the reins of your free will from you. And I'm not saying that's never the right thing to do. I'm saying you gotta be careful because most often that'll backfire. Most often what's gonna happen is if you try and intervene and sabotage a relationship, you're gonna lose your ability to connect with influence be there for that person and they're gonna go deeper into the abusive relationship. The best way to intervene is just to speak your mind. One of my favorite phrases, not in therapy as much, but just in like my personal relationships with people is I'm gonna say this once and then I'm gonna leave it alone. Because generally speaking, I don't like to intervene in people's lives unless they invite me to, right? In therapy, I've got the invitation. Excuse me, I got a little sniffle now. In therapy, I've got the invitation. In personal lives, it's harder because you can be interpreted as a know-it-all who's sick and there knows where it doesn't belong, right? Speaking of which, excuse me. And so what I like to say is I'm gonna say this once and I'm gonna leave it alone. I'm also coming at this from my own perspective so take that for what it's worth. I'm concerned and here's why. And then speak your piece. And you can even own up front. Like you could strip away any reason for defensiveness. You could say things like, I may not have all the information. I only have my perspective. Like things like that decrease and diminish people's need to push back against you and increase that they're gonna hear you. And then I would just say, I want you to know like out of respect for you, I'm not gonna beat this drum because you're a grown person, you can make your own choices. I also want you to know that if this ever goes sideways or if you ever decide to be done with this relationship, I don't want you to feel like I'm gonna say I told you so or give you a hard time. Whether you stay in this relationship or not, I'm your ride or die. Like I'm here for you. So don't hesitate to use me. You're not a burden. I love that phrase, you're not a burden. I love that, yeah. Cause so many people don't reach out for help cause they don't wanna be a burden. And what I tell those people is, why would you deny someone the chance to love you, right? That's so true. Cause if they're your friend, they want to be there for you, right? If they're your friend or family, and by family, I mean that in terms of closeness and love, not blood cause you can have family that's not really family and you can have friends that are definitely family. Wow, yeah, that's true. I'm blessed to have both, but like if they're truly family, they want to be there for you. One of the hardest things for me is my mom had a lot of health problems before she passed away and she kept them from the kids, a lot of them from the kids, even though we were adults. And I remember that made me so mad cause she wanted to protect us and spare us and didn't want us to worry. And I'm like, we're worried anyways. And we're adults, we don't need you to take care of us anymore. You're denying us the opportunity to be there for you the way you were there for us. I remember I told her this and then we had a few years where she started to let me know more of all the stuff she was going through and it was good. Like even though she passed away, I was glad to have the time to be there for her. So anybody who's watching this don't underestimate people's desire to be there for you. That's so beautiful because healing happens on both sides in that situation. Like you guys were able to heal but also your mom as well. Yeah. I apologize, folks. I have ADHD and so I go off on tangents. Don't apologize. No, you're giving amazing advice. Okay, thank you. I do feel like I keep straying from the topic because I'm like, oh, this might be helpful or oh, that might be helpful, but. When it comes to our YouTube channels, afterwards we film these episodes or we film these videos and then we go over them and Alan has ADHD too and so our poor editors. Like afterwards we're like, yeah, let's get rid of all of this, let's keep this and it feels more streamlined but if you ever actually interact with Alan or I it's a bit more all over the place. When you're an expert and you're full of advice and knowledge, it can be hard because you just want to put it all out there, right? You're kind to say so and thank you that is, no, there's truth to that. Like just want to help. Yeah, of course. And so Brianna asks, how do you recognize toxic traits in yourself? This is a great question. Okay, and Brianna and everybody else because I've been meandering, I'm going to start giving shorter answers so I can get to more of the questions. So I apologize, I don't mind if you're tilted. How can you recognize, learn about them? So the book is how to avoid falling in love with a jerk. By Dr. John Van Epp, I taught that course in the community and I can tell you how many people came to that course because they thought they dated a bunch of jerks and then they're like, I just realized taking this course that I'm the jerk and I have work to do. So I think learning about the traits and then here's the really hard one listening to people when they tell you because oftentimes they're speaking to the behavior and you're speaking to your intentions, right? And so when someone tells you that you're being a jerk or when someone tells you that what you're doing is toxic or harmful, you're probably quick to say, no, it's not because you know that your intentions are quite the opposite, right? It's like the mother in, what's the, seeing red, no, turning red, the Disney, if you've seen that, it's like the mother in turning red or in everything everywhere all at once, the same thing, where these mothers can't for a long time see themselves as toxic and even sometimes abusive because their heart's in the right place and they can't imagine that what they're doing is causing harm. Oh wow, that's a great point. And so how do you recognize toxic traits in yourself? I've never met a person who was displaying toxic behaviors who at least early on saw that their behaviors were toxic. All of them thought, I'm doing good, I'm trying to help, this is needed, this is right, right? Yeah. So I think we need to listen to other people and that doesn't mean that if someone says something, you just accept it as truth but you shouldn't dismiss it out of hand either. I've learned, I've always seen myself as a good person because I am a good person. Like I try and do right by others and I try and help and I try and be kind and compassionate but something I've learned the past couple of years in my marriage, speaking of the video series I'm doing with my wife on Men to Light right now is I had major blind spots of selfishness and dishonesty and they started with being dishonest with myself and because I believed myself to be such a good person when she told me, when my wife told me, I'm like, what the hell are you even talking about? Who are you talking to? Like what is this? This isn't me and it took a long time for me like to clear the cobwebs of my own perspective and see hers and so. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's the ability to self-reflect as well like always reminding yourself, okay, I mean there are things that I do wrong I need to assess myself. I wanted you to see this John though, Oni said, my mom has breast cancer and did something similar to us. So your random gem helped me out a lot. Thank you, John. Thank you. Thank you, Oni girl. And please give, your mom doesn't know me. So if I say give my love to your mother she'll be like, who's that and who cares? She'll be like, thanks, but give my love to your mother. She could watch this. Which sounds like a schoolyard insult now that I hear it coming out of my mouth. Anyways, we'll keep moving. Okay. Okay. Before you go to next question, the tricky thing about self-reflection is even that could be taken to an extreme where now it's a neurosis and you're obsessively thinking, did I do the right thing? Did I say the right thing? Are my motivations right? And then here's the thing about mental health guys. We're all messed up in one way or another, right? It's just different from person to person. And when people say, this is what I think and feel is that normal. I always tell them the same thing which is there's no such thing as normal. So just embrace our collective beauty and our collective brokenness and then we just work through it as best we can. Exactly. Do you see this one? I wanted to highlight it. I do. Nurran asks, how do I distance myself from someone who is being too toxic? I always feel like I'm hurting them even though it's hurting me by staying around that energy. Which I think we can all relate to that. It can be so hard to leave. Um, here's what I would say. It will hurt them. But your job isn't to spare the people you love pain. I'm reminded of Marlon in finding Nemo when he's like, I promise that I would never let anything happen to him. And Dory says, well, that's a funny thing to promise. If you'd never let anything happen to him then nothing will ever happen to him. The fact is relationships are a gamble. And C.S. Lewis and others have said that pain is the price that we pay to experience love, right? And you can live without, you can't really live without pain, but you can minimize pain by living without love. But then what's the quality of life with that, right? Exactly. And so if you're in a relationship with someone and it's toxic and it's demeaning to your, let me find the exact phrase because I like this phrase a lot. A prolonged, I've heard someone say like, what's just cause for breaking up or just cause for divorce? It's a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship that is destructive of a person's dignity as a human being. If being in this relationship is destructive of your dignity, I applaud you for your selfless concern for the other person, but this is a virtue turned into a vice, right? That level of selfless sacrifice comes to an extreme where it's now something that not only hurts you, but let's say you don't really care too much about it hurting you, you're worried about the other person, well, it's hurting them cause they're now with somebody who every day wishes they weren't, right? And so I know a lot of media references, but staying in the police, if you love someone set them free, I think that staying means nothing unless someone's free to leave. And so you have to make yourself free to leave. If this relationship isn't going to work, it's a mercy to end it sooner rather than later. Yeah, and pain is a part of life, but it's knowing when to walk away. And so I like that point that you made cause you can't completely avoid pain, right? I mean, it's just a part of the human experience, right? Yeah, and the person that you're with that you're concerned about, maybe this will be the wake-up call they need. Exactly. They'll always regret hurting you and losing you, but now they're like, oh, this is what happens when I act like this. Sometimes people change. Sometimes they dig deeper into their bitterness and their views on the world, but that's not really up to you. Mm-hmm, exactly. And so this is gonna be the last question, the last audience question. How can you help someone who's a narcissist but doesn't realize it when you talk with them about it and then they get mad? Oh, wow. It's a loaded question. It is a loaded question. Okay, there's a shorter version and a longer version. The shorter version is remove the expectation from yourself that it's your duty to, well, I was gonna say duty to help them, but I'll actually change that to strip yourself of expectations of outcomes. There is no one right way, and there are people that you could do everything right. You could do it in the healthiest way possible and there's too many walls there. There's too many walls of self-protection. In the case of a narcissist, there's this fear of if I am wrong or if I've made mistakes, then that's weakness. And so I can't be wrong and I can't make mistakes. And so someone like that, you're fighting this endless battle to get them to acknowledge that they've done wrong, that they've made a mistake, that they're flawed and they are deeply, deeply invested in not coming to that conclusion. And so they'll fight you tooth and nail. And so the question to ask yourself is not, how can I get them to see it? The question to ask yourself is, what is my side? What is out of human kindness, what can I say so that at least this thought is planted in their mind that they may recall later, that it may come back to them later and help them. You can say to someone like that, and I guess you said they're a narcissist and they won't see it even when you tell them, well, maybe you don't tell them they're a narcissist because they don't see themselves as a narcissist so they're gonna reject that. And it's maybe try a different approach of talking about is this working? Like, okay, let me tell you the behavior of yours that hurts me and pushes me away and makes me not want to be around you. And you can tell me what you're trying to accomplish with that behavior and then I'll tell you what you can do that would actually give you that result, right? So essentially remove the labels and just discuss the behavior. Yeah, love that. Yeah, it's more effective. Yeah, so thank you. These are great questions. Yeah, amazing. We have amazing viewers. So thank you for those questions to everyone watching. And so these are gonna be the last questions it's mental health awareness month. And so I just wanted to ask what's your mental health professional? How do we eliminate the stigma around seeking mental health treatment? I think the more we talk about it, the more we talk about it personally, not using third-person language talking about somebody else going to therapy, that here's the, I guess here's the hard thing. I can't ask this as a therapist but I can't ask this as a person. As a therapist, I could never ask one of my clients to speak publicly about going to therapy, right? Because I don't have the right to ask them that. What I can say is that the people who do normalize it. Karen Gillan or Gillan, I can't remember her last name but she plays Nebula in Guardians of the Galaxy. She's also in the Jumanji movies. She did a post recently that just, I loved it so much. And my geeky therapist heart just loved this post. She shared a screenshot of a day that she was filming Guardians of the Galaxy in full Nebula makeup. And she forgot that she had a couples therapy session with her husband. And so she didn't have time to take the makeup off. Like she rushed from the set and it was virtual. And so like they scratched out the therapist's face. But it's her and her husband and then a therapist with the face scratched out. And she's in couples therapy as Nebula with the makeup, right? Oh my God. Oh, wow. She's devoted though. She's like, I'm gonna do both. And it's a funny story. But she also said, hey, my husband and I go to couples therapy and I have no problem owning that before the world that that's a healthy, beautiful thing to do. And there are quite a few celebrities who do that. At Mended Light, we have merch that says going to therapy is cool. Like on water bottles and stickers and decals and stuff. I love that. But just the idea of, we don't find shame in going to the dentist. My teeth needed work. We don't find shame in going to a cardiologist, right? But for some reason, when it comes to the brain or when it comes to the heart, figuratively speaking, there's all sorts of shame around that. Like strong people shouldn't have to go. But I think we're moving past the age of stoicism where you can't acknowledge vulnerability, where you can't acknowledge mistakes, where you can't acknowledge struggles. That that's human. And the more any of us do it, like I've gone to therapy. I'll tell you that right now. I'm the therapist and I've gone to therapy. I'm the therapist and I've needed to work on my marriage. Right? Like life is hard. Emotions are hard. The mental illness is hard. And no one's immune. Even if you called me an expert, like the fact is it's really easy. It's relatively easy when it's not my life, when it's not my emotions, when it's not my issues. I'm frankly pretty good at what I do. And I'm not saying like I've got this terrible family life or anything like that. Like I love my wife, I love my kids. What I'm saying is we've all got struggles and we need to normalize that so that it's not scary to talk about. Because people feel alone when they can't, when they feel like nobody else is going through this. Or they think everyone who's going through this is super messed up. And so I guess I'm just one of these messed up people. And that's why I tell everyone to embrace that we're all messed up. It's just, it just looks different from person to person. And their strength and power and vulnerability. And I think people need to remember that. And so thank you so much, Jonathan, for being here. We really appreciate it. Thank you for all of the viewers for asking their questions. And I hope that everyone has an amazing day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. Take care. Thank you.