 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm honored to be joined by Gil Chiron Gil Welcome to the show Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So You are here to teach us about really the origins and history of reggae drumming, which You came to my attention from your very famous book DVD wicked beats, which is reggae rocksteady and Jamaican ska drumming Lessons, which is just I think very very well respected in the community. So I'm really really pumped to have you here awesome Thank you so much. Yeah, it's it's an honor to be here and it's it really is an honor to be a representative of this music and just Explain it to people and I love doing it. So I'm I'm excited to jump into this. Yeah, so it's it's funny because like Some people might think that like I should be talking to like a traditional Jamaican reggae drummer But I think it should be set up front that you are really really really passionate and very knowledgeable about this and that what's just kind of mind-blowing though is like You have done so many things which will really kind of dig deeper in at the end But like Dillinger escape plan Marilyn Manson Jerry Cantrell. I mean you've done a lot of film work You're all over the place, man Yeah, yeah, totally. It's it's funny even when I joined Dillinger. There was a lot of like Press behind my entrance of that band and for people that don't know the style of music that Dillinger is it has Nothing to do with Jamaican styles of music and now it's extremely extreme metal heavy music lots of time changes lots of blistering tempos so They they introduced me in the band and people knew me from this clip on YouTube doing like reggae rhythms And it was funny because they'd be like Dillinger got a reggae drummer. What's going on? That's hysterical. So yeah, yeah, it's funny, but it's Definitely even though I play everything and I really don't you know say that loosely I really do play everything and and I'm music is my life and I Can't hold myself down to one style. I've never wanted to be that kind of player. That was just an expert in one thing I always wanted to be like an expert in everything because I just loved it all and you know, I really feel like my my Education of the Jamaican styles of music and what I've been through Over the years and playing this music for you know, almost 30 years now and being around the community I I can say with confidence that I may I'm a good authority figure on the topic. Good. I love that. I like you're amongst fellow like obsessed Nerds who absolutely this is just you know, everything drumming is is is what we all love So you're amongst friends here. I love that. Well, Gil Why don't we jump right in and go back to the beginning and start with the origins of reggae drumming? Just a side note, especially for the listeners besides the Jamaican styles of music. I'm also a total jazz head So a lot of the comparisons that I make Explaining the Jamaican styles of music and the sub genres like you're gonna hear me throw a lot of jazz Comparisons and compare certain players or how things work musically to jazz. So let's start from the beginning and We start in Jamaica Basically before reggae came There's a lot of people think it's like just reggae and then everything is under the reggae genre, but it's not we start with ska and a Lot of people kind of think oh they heard of ska and like the 90s from bands from like Orange County or they heard of ska and like the early 80s from this two-tone movement and We'll get to all of that but that is not at all what started everything So when you go to 1950s Jamaica Before ska even started the musicians were highly influenced of course from what was happening in the States with Jazz with with blues with there's Afro-Cuban influence. There's Latin influence there were also Calypso styles and styles called Buru drumming which were Being played by a set of drummers on hand percussion as opposed to a drum set but then the Buru style really got coined by One man who we just have to just talk about and give props to and everybody needs to know who this man is his name is Lloyd nib and Lloyd was the godfather of pretty much all of these styles on the drum set and we will get to Lloyd in a minute so basically Before ska was coined in the late 50s into the early 60s The lot of the Jamaican bands were just playing like this combination of like doo-wop boogie woogie Kind of blue beat type shuffle grooves and that's what was happening on the drum set it was either like a straight kind of boogie woogie beat or a swung shuffle beat and That's why I always tell people it's so important to develop a strong shuffle in your playing Not only to develop a jazz feel but just other styles outside of jazz They're still so much implied that you can't get from just playing straight patterns Yeah, and like my buddy Stanton Moore We did a whole show together Several years ago where he talked about his New Orleans influence I talked about my Jamaican influence and how they both influenced each other But there's those that in in between the cracks type feel so That's another important thing that you can get from understanding straight for swung pulses So Lloyd is pretty much credited as the creator of the ska beat some other Jamaican musicians might say oh it was Winston Grenin. It was this guy. It was this guy, but I truly believe it was Lloyd His sound is undeniable his influence is undeniable Anybody that's ever played the music is Basically copying Lloyd. I know I do. It's like sure Anybody that understands traditional Jamaican ska and the feel of what became Everything after that it came from Lloyd nibb. So when you start with the with the very first style of music that came out of Jamaica it is ska and Ska at the time when you think about what was happening politically Jamaica's independence in 1962 It was a very celebratory time. It was a happy time Which clearly reflects in the style of the music of ska So Lloyd told me the story that while he was recording tunes with coxswain with Clement Dodd at studio one Um coxswain just said let's change up the beat Let's let's try to give it a different feel because like I was saying Everything before that were like boogie woogie shuffles so Lloyd came up with the signature Inside-out groove of what a shuffle would be put it on the hi hats and became the ska beat in wicked beats I Demonstrate a very thorough breakdown of the ska pattern that I'm referring to so if if people aren't familiar with it you know, they can check it out, but No other style of drumming before Lloyd created this pattern Nobody else was doing this. So this drum pattern was essential it was it was a major factor in what created ska and Why ska feels the way it feels. It's a very it's a very dancey feel. It's very upbeat the Snare and the snare cross stick that scas pretty much especially traditional ska. It's always played with a cross stick It's not played later styles get into hitting the snare drum with a stick like a backbeat but this is a two and four cross stick and two and four bass drum in unison against a very fun open swishy swing hi-hat pulse and Then Lloyd would do all these fun accents which you hear are just like clearly influenced from Latin music and those those different cowbell kind of patterns that he pioneered on the hi-hat no other drummers were doing that before Lloyd nibb nobody in the States Nobody anywhere else that I know could take credit for what Lloyd was doing on the drum set in Creating this style and I even joke to some players that aren't familiar with what even the ska pattern sounds like or What these accents and writing the bell of the hi-hat sound like when you listen to rush and you listen to YYZ And you hear Neil Neil get to the ride and he's playing that pattern The broken up bell pattern. Yeah, that is a very staccato pattern and a rhythm that Lloyd would throw in his ska beat So even if he was just doing Swung like a like a eighth note feel he would play this cool bell pattern In so many of the tunes like one off the top of my head You can listen to simmer down, which is a classic ska tune I think came out in 64 and the lead singer on that is Bob Marley and that was before Bob was a Superstar this was early early the whalers. It wasn't even called Bob Marley in the whalers in the 60s It was just the whalers and it was Bunny whaler Peter Tosh and Bob Marley and all three lead singers You know became reggae icons and superstars And we just recently lost Bunny whaler. I had the honor Yeah, get getting to spend time with Bunny and just he was amazing But anyway Lloyd told me the story that Coxson was saying let's change up the beat. Let's do something That's different. That's our own and boom the ska beat was created on the spot right there and from then on Through that era of that music into the mid 60s It was a combination of Lloyd's signature ska groove and then still those kind of boogie woogie Blue beat I call them blue beat shuffles Where a guys guys are almost playing a us shuffle on the ride or the hi-hat But hitting that cross stick on two and four and unison with the bass drum Which is much different of a feel than drummers in the States were doing even with boogie woogie like you'd have guys playing four on the floor with the kick Versus just a unison cross stick and bass drum accent on two and four. It's a very different feel Yeah, for sure. Now, can I ask you to were they in the studio at this point with the I guess it would just be considered ska where they Applying as many, you know heavy reverbs and delays that reggae is kind of I say quote-unquote reggae You know overarching term that it's become famous for with like the the super long echo was that mean used yet? No No, not yet. Not yet that we'll get we'll we're gonna get to that but the the recordings of ska were very much Just pure it was live, you know, you'd hear some horns like out of tune It was just live these these guys were they were recording on the spot. It was like the wrecking crew They would just do these tunes They didn't spend all day on one song that Lloyd would tell me back in the day in the 60s He would do a session with coxswain and then as soon as he was done He'd run over to Duke Reads and then Prince Buster would see him driving in the street and say hey come to my studio after I got songs for you to do so that's awesome the thing is what people need to research the scottelites and the players in the scottelites all of them the The rhythm section both Lloyd's Lloyd Brevet and Lloyd nib and then you add Don Drummond on trombone Roland Alfonso Tommy McCook Ernest Ranglin on guitar Johnny Dizzy more on trumpet. So these guys were heavily influenced by jazz and you can hear that in their melodies and their solos They were telling you a story. They were melodic. It wasn't extremely technical But what it made up for in that respect it had all the feel and the expression in the world And that's another thing that drew me to the music not only the feel but what they had to say Yeah, you know, I love that early on you said that they were obviously influenced heavily by like, you know Western music and jazz and blues But like you also mentioned that then ska and then into the further, you know iterations of it influenced the whole rest of the world. So it's kind of this give and take of like They're they're taking things that motivate them in a certain way that that influence them in a certain way And then they give it right back and that changes the the face of music. It's just such a cool And Jamaica is a small country too. So it's it's really cool that they had such a huge impact People borrow from their influences all the time, you know, it's like everybody so many people have said, you know The best musicians steal and but the the difference is they make it their own and that's what Jamaica did They they took all of these styles. They fused them together and created their own Their own signature style, which then like you said influenced the rest of the world like we wouldn't have the police We wouldn't have the clash culture club You know, I'll get to all that more of the modern bands heavily influenced by Jamaican. So Back to the 60s. So now Now you're listening to this style of music that's super upbeat It feels great people can't stop dancing to it and now here comes the introduction To rock steady, which is the next style that started to come before reggae So you have all these People in the dances dancing and they want to break, you know, it's like give me a slow jam You know, you don't go to the club and then you're just always dancing to the same tempo You've got to change it up or Even in modern day you walk into a club whether it's like an edm thing or a hip hop thing or what or funk or disco As soon as that dj drops it or drops the tempo to a slower thing. Everyone's like, oh damn so That's that's basically when how rock steady came into play Where it was time to kind of slow things down and give it a cooler sound The characteristics of the bass and the guitar and the drums the whole rhythm section Vibe changed and it was such a perfect compliment and the really really deep Deep conscious stuff didn't come into play until reggae was coined Um scon rock steady. We're both happy music rock steady, you know lyrics It's almost similar to like 50s doo-wop. It's it's love songs and it's it's got such a cool sound and You know joe isaac's another Major pioneer as far as rock steady drumming goes. He was One of the house drummers for studio one That feel was the perfect balance and again you can say, okay What's the difference between scott drumming and rock rock steady drumming and there's a major major difference scott drumming had that Open pulse on the hi-hat that open closed pulse Kind of swung kind of straight the bell accents his Lloyd's Lloyd nibs fills were textbook like the vocabulary of scott drumming is just Lloyd all day The buru style of his drumming Which stanton actually called me about and said yo i'm blown away by the the buru stuff you're doing It's so slick and it just was awesome that He but I wasn't surprised that he noticed that I said awesome man. I said dude. I'm glad you're I'm glad you're loving that then So that's what even started the conversation. He was so intrigued by it. He's like man I've never even like heard that approach before and I just say it's Lloyd I got it from Lloyd and that's just straight up So it's so exciting in those fills. So the buru style drumming Which I mentioned earlier was played by a group of drummers playing different percussion instruments. Lloyd took the bass drum and the toms and the snare drum to create the whole group in on the kit and He incorporated that in between the scoff feel So when you go back and listen to anything Lloyd did with the scotta lights, you're going to hear right away These fills i'm talking about so in rock steady That wasn't so much there So it's more stripped down basically or it it was it was very stripped down rock steady It pretty much gave birth to the one drop which everyone credits to reggae But yeah, the in rock steady is that's when we said, okay, look Let's stop the swishy open high hats. Let's tighten up the high hats. Let's give a straight eighth note pulse It's gone. It's gone. It's come and then it's dancy. It's light Um, the carly barrett high hat, you know variations those those worn apart of the rock steady vibe rock steady was very stripped down Straightforward it's funny guys that come to me and they're like, yo I can't understand. I can't wrap my head around this reggae feel like I need to hit the bass drum on beat one So Yeah, they they kind of they kind of have to get used to this inside out Pulse it's cool. You just said that so inside out pulse really that's referring to obviously Basically flipping it where you're not playing on the one, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, so the one is empty And that's one of the myths of where the term one drop comes from there's and I love that We can talk about this now because there's a debate where people ask Do you count reggae on beat three of a bar or do you count it? Do you count it on two and four? No matter how fast it is or how slow it is it's one two three Four and I'm in that tempo. I'm counting that cross stick and kick on one two three Four and that's slow. We can get even slower if it's fast once two three four once boom Boom. Yeah, boom. So When I did the dvd, I was explaining You know one of the myths of it being called a one drop is because there's only one drop in the bar Which is on beat three and a lot of people connect to that when I talk to my jamaican influences about these styles of music They'll all say The same common thing The main difference between those three styles of ska rock steady and reggae Would be tempo It helps define what was going on. You have ska, which is your upbeat dancy rock steady, which Time to slow things down in the dance halls. It's a it's a cooler field to dance to Even in ska they one of the style of dancing is called skanking, you know and yeah what the What the guitar player is doing on up beats is Skanks the piano horns skanks on the upbeat So if they're all on up beats, then it's clearly two and four are your down beats are your back beats Instead of thinking of if you're counting it is a Beat three in the bar then two and four are now your up beats. You know what I mean? And they're not up beats anymore. Those are those are down beats. So Again, it's if the feels right and you're playing it with the right intention Then the debate isn't that hardcore But in reality, I like to say it and the way I count it off the way carly listen uh When you get to reggae those real deep slow like burning spear tunes or Or any of the slow bob marley tunes It's one two Bats Boom boom and we're in. Yeah, it's not one. He you don't hear carly going one two One two three four, you know, it's not like that. So no, we're keeping we're keeping the quarter nopal slow in reggae So I definitely like to say It's two and four. That's the traditional way It's starting faster and slowing it all the way down, but you're still playing it on two and four Yeah, and what what you just did there though kind of you mentioned it earlier, but I think it's There's the classic and I guess you said Lloyd nib it goes back to him He was like the prototype but those the fill in is very iconic where Even on like, you know very famous bob marley album or something you can start it and it's And then the next song is that dude The next song they're they're really I mean a lot of songs start with the fill in which is kind of an iconic thing Definitely and those fills are so signature and they start really from Lloyd carly will even say If if you was still here, I learned from watching Lloyd nib Slide done bars gonna say Santa's gonna say horse mouth is gonna say all these legendary reggae players Are all gonna say they were all under the school of Lloyd nib just like myself And that's where I developed a lot of my roles from even before I got like really deep into reggae I was kind of more into scoffers and all the phrasings and the fills That Lloyd was doing and the crack on the snare and the setups again A lot of those melodies, especially with the traditional scon the 60s They're very jazzy. So Lloyd was able to play As groovy and as swinging as hard as he was But have that attitude his cross stick. Oh my Lloyd taught me how to do the way he does his cross stick I've never seen anybody do it like that. I've Totally stole that from Lloyd like so much of that. I can't say enough about what I got from him But yes, those reggae fills for sure became just signature Yeah, especially when carly came out like there were other drummers that Did amazing things But carleton carly sound was I think the epitome of what anybody thinks of when they think of reggae drumming. So When you have these at this point three genres, we'll call it ska jamaican ska rock steady and reggae Would would one band who's playing ska not ever play rock steady or would these be You'd be playing all three genres in one night at the dance hall ska and rock steady were primarily grouped together I feel especially through the 60s And then reggae was kind of its own beast when that took over Now before we move further on into reggae just kind of like in this, you know Let's call it the origins What was like a drum setup like because again, Jamaica, it's not like you're in America where there's all these huge brands It's not even like you're in Europe where there's Massive manufacture like where would they Were there jamaican brands? Where would they be getting the drums? Would it be imports? How would that work? in the 60s They're they were playing, you know Old Ludwigs that you know Gretsch just whatever they could get their hands on the one important thing to realize too It's music from the ghetto So it's not like everyone was just like flossing the brand new drums and cymbals in the high end You know the ska sound and the rock steady sound was a wide open sound It was it was like a jazz whether it was a big band or a small group It had that kind of sound to it the snare Would have a crack the snare would ring it was open the cross stick would breathe it wouldn't sound completely Dead and gated and muffled um everything was open and natural and it really wasn't until reggae hit that You you hear the signature like put a chamois over the snare or the the heads are so Beat up and and broken that there's just like five layers of tape over the heads and everything's very but not only did that just work out because People were playing on the gear that they had but it also sonically defined this music where The space and the discipline as a player comes in to play where When you're listening to a lot of reggae records, especially roots reggae Everything is very tight in the drums. It's they're not ringing the toms aren't taking up, you know 10 bars after the fill is done It's the the snare will Will be either very dead And you're and fat sounding or it'll have the carly sound which almost sounds like a timbali And I even talk about that and I show two examples of different like this is my 60s era drum set full-on classic four piece open No, muffle then you get to reggae and now i'm dampening the head um the toms I usually use two different snares one a fat snare one a ring tight snare and a timbali also symbol wise There were guys that you know, we're playing on crack cymbals It's because there wasn't there wasn't the money to get Brand new cymbals or whatever was in the studio is what was being used on this record. So That also became another sound. You don't hear a lot of Big fills and then a cymbal crash every four bars in reggae that Again comes into play with the discipline of understanding that music There's this stereotype where you have to hit like a lot of splash cymbals and crashes and that's like That's a way more bastardized version of what people think reggae drumming is Then what authentic reggae is like when you see me in a reggae setting and I know i'm not playing any ska I don't even use a ride cymbal like none None of the legends that I learned from are using Ride cymbals in roots reggae It's your it's you want it to be tight and you're playing the time on the hi hats that can be manipulated by opening and closing And how tight you're squeezing them but on a ride It's just so out of character To be doing that. I mean you don't really hear much ride in any of this music and but Everything you're saying is about it being like a part of the vibe. It's like you watch old videos or anything And it's like it's usually kind of a In a good way kind of a broken down looking drum set With cracked cymbals, but it's a part of the vibe and they're usually in like a studio with like 35 people standing around Yeah, you know, it's like it's a feel Uh, and it's just great very much and and that that's a good segue now to explain what now That we're jumping into reggae Naya bingi drumming is Such an important aspect The whole marriage between the rastafarian culture and naya bingi drumming This is a a very deep spiritual religious ceremony. That's happening and By the smoking and chanting And having these these drums Playing in a group it could be three drummers It could be 20 and it's heavy heavy heavy feeling And it's the heartbeat literally the heartbeat pattern of the bingi drumming boom boom. Yeah boom boom chat chat boom boom Boom boom and that tempo Can be faster. It could be slower. So It's a correlation a direct correlation of bingi drumming and fills and phrasing the lead drum the repeater the ket it's It's like hand in hand when you hear me play the bingi drum And the way I phrase fills on a bingi drum If I pick up sticks and play the drum set I'm gonna phrase fills that way too. So there's a vocabulary that gets established in a marriage So it's really important when you understand reggae drumming that you also Are aware of naya bingi drumming and how deep that is to me. It's kind of fascinating how Rastafarianism which is a religion is so closely tied to a music where it doesn't happen I mean you think of like gospel music or something here and you know around the world But and I'm sure there's tons of examples of it But when people think of and it might be incorrect, but when people think of reggae they typically think of Rastafarians and things like that like it's it's just a unique Um, how connected they are Is pretty wild. Yeah, so reggae you said 70s were we're basically entering that time and Things changed it obviously like you said it blew up and the world, you know kind of began to notice it Fair enough, right? Definitely. Definitely. You had just songs that an artist that were just undeniably Just touching the rest of the world But guys like chris blackwell and other key players that were able to bring awareness To these artists, you know that might not have ever been known outside of jamaica It was because of guys like chris blackwell that were able to say hey I'm going to introduce you guys To the to the rest of the world to the uk to the us like and that's when other people started paying attention And catching on to this is like turning into a form of almost pop music. Mm-hmm Yeah, like you said with like the police and those bands and like I mean, it's just I feel like it's that the skank It's the beat and that just really translates I mean, it's it's happy music that everyone likes to listen to obviously there's slower songs, but it's got such a good feel to it It's kind of um, you know, it's a no-brainer that it struck a chord with everyone Oh, yeah, even you know, the rolling stones and for sure with bob and peter tosh and just these world Like superstars working with these jamaican artists, but as far as what was happening with now drumming you had The roots reggae feel Which is the one drop and the stepper's pattern and the rockers pattern which I kind of coin I coined as a rockers pattern Because it feels like a rock beat So some guys will talk about rockers as a as a genre And that's fine. The way that I refer to rockers is taking the beat And you're not playing a one drop anymore Which would be for people that don't know the cross stick and the bass drum and unison on two and four or beat three however you feel it It's it's now playing like a rock beat where the bass drum, let's say for instance is on beat one and And three and your snare drums on two and four. So you have that that boof boof five boof five one two three four and then your skank so That's another style that now opened up the floodgates for the reggae feel Now you have stuff you can take from scott. You can take stuff from rock steady You can take stuff from roots reggae now. You got rockers style. You got the rubba dub style This is before rappers were rapping you had guys in jamaica It's called toasting it was just such a massive influence on the culture before we go too far further I want to you mentioned scientist Um, I grew up in high school loving. I think it was king tubby meets scientist um And i'm sure there's there the names of those like dub albums were awesome There's just so many like that Is now a good time in the timeline to maybe pause and talk about dub music and I I kind of think of it as engineers being the like Musicians the stars it's it's sort of a unique type of music which maybe is like a precursor in in uh, I don't want to offend anyone But maybe a cooler version of like modern djs dude check this out dub was the birth of the remix Uh-huh. Can you define dub before we go because maybe someone out there doesn't know so so lay it out as what it is first dub is the engineer manipulating a reggae tune to give the bass and drums even more in the forefront and add effects and drops and filters to the horns or the vocals or the guitars or any top line things that were happening Would be affected or muted and really let the bass and drums shine and drive the track It's a remix and it's the engineer saying this is now my time to shine a lot of jamaican artists and producers We're releasing the a side would be the vocal version And the b side would be the dub version That's awesome So so there would be releases and that's why my group that i'm currently in gill miggs and roge We our formula is that we do our instrumental version and it's a dub But then we also get vocalists to come in and do a vocal version of the tune So we kind of start the other way around we start as a pure instrumental rhythm And then we get people to do a vocal after Instead of starting with the vocal version of a tune and then remixing that so But we're it's just like a complete salute to the jamaican culture And how things were working in the 70s with that and even before the 70s like when you have a A producer like king tubby or lee perry or scientist They're hearing a tune And they're saying Now i'm gonna remix this song And this is how i hear this remix But this is all before automation too. So you have to realize that The art form Of dub was These guys were like octopuses like they had to move a fader And do a mute and do a filter sweep and add a delay and add a reverb They're all doing this in real time. This isn't okay. Let's run it back and now do the delays on the snare Now let's run it back and put the filters on the hi-hats This is all being done in real time with analog gear the nobody else Taught these guys that they invented it now and for non engineer most people know this but automation obviously the gill just mentioned refers to Like you do a passive automation where you can ride the fader in like uh in like touch mode in pro tools or Latch or there's there's these modes where you're moving the faders and then you hit stop and it's gonna it's writing These moves you just made so every time you play it's going to be doing the exact same thing so obviously what you're referring to is is That that didn't exist. So like you get one pass through to get it right and oh crap We turn you know, it didn't it didn't take right or something like that. It's so important to say the octopus armor. You're moving everywhere It's like Exactly and and if something got messed up in the take and that's why actually that's pretty common you'll hear Like good mistakes or you'll hear like legendary hip-hop producers like like Rizzo from Wu Tang it's like he'll say oh that beat ended up being like a mistake Because something you know was in record mode and it shouldn't have been and it ended up blah blah blah But I kept it. So yeah, sometimes there's things that were like Good mistakes that were stuck on the track because they didn't go back and redo it. It was what you got at that time was what you got um Scientists now, you know, he's he's not afraid to use digital stuff. He he's very particular on what he'll work on What console he'll work on but he'll still record into pro tools But it's so fun to watch him like even with our stuff He'd do like two passes of each tune. So he do he do a dub and then When he heard it, he'd be a little more familiar with the tune And then he just run another one But it was it's such a pleasure to watch him and see how it's done So With with that dub influence people ask. Oh, is that the same as dubstep? It's like no dubstep is Dubstep is a totally different genre and style of music Of course, there's some influence from where dub came from But yeah that that again dub was really the birth Of of the remix. Yeah, and the the iconic like I mentioned before the super long the the snare delay Echo that will go for super long. There'd be I feel like there's always a lot of trumpet and horn involved in a lot of dub Um Those sounds and just these these the which I think that Those effects across the board Yeah As an engineer And as you are yourself and most now modern-day drummers have some engineering experience and all that stuff But it's just that really pushed forward engineering I feel like an adding effects and going like way over saturating everything and realizing wow, that sounds awesome You know keep it exactly there are no rules when it comes to that and it was the effects shine the guys using the effects shine um But again, like I tell purists or guys that are like I can't believe he muted that beautiful snare drum or I can't believe he killed those toms. It's like yo This is the sound. This is deliberate. It's it's not like oh We made a mistake sorry to the purists that are afraid to like do anything outside of The norm when I hear a king tubby mix I know it's they had their own sound like when when I hear max roach and tony williams I know who's who when I hear a tubby dub and a scientist dub and a prince jammy dub or a mad professor dub I know who's who they all had they all have their sound and their take on it And um, it's an amazing thing. But yeah, those filters and those delays. I'm I'm in love with that stuff I I can't get enough of that. Yeah, it's so analog and just awesome. But um Okay, so for the sake of time, let's chug forward here So we were in the 70s dub is happening obviously, but reggae Bands are popping up in the world that are influenced by it obviously the clash Um, but I don't think that those bands come off as like bastardizing that type of music because I love the clash. I love the police. I mean they they do it Well, yeah, do you know how reggae players felt about that happening their their style spreading to the rest of the world Yeah, I can't speak for everybody but from the ones that I know directly and and what I've seen also in interviews or reading about They were they loved it. They were very into the influence like lee perry produced the clash went to jamaica and worked with lee perry And he actually kind of insulted How bad they were at reggae, which is funny, you know, like it's but at the same time They had a charm to their sound like when the clash plays reggae. It doesn't have to sound like sly and robbie It doesn't have to sound like the whalers. It doesn't have to sound like roots. Radix. They they had a charm You could tell they loved the music, but they played it. They're kind of sloppy punk punk rock way, but one very important bridge to talk about to getting there is the The era of two-tone ska. So from the late 70s The mid to late 70s. There was a strong of course jamaican relationship with the uk and a lot of those bands Were loving reggae, but they were also Filled with angst and punk rock energy So now you have two-tone ska, which is faster The driving beat of the bass drum through what I call a stepper's pattern. It's riding through And the guitar skinks are still there But the main the the primary bands that were a part of the two-tone movement The english beat the specials. Yeah, you read my mind madness The selector there's even a very iconic two-tone live album called dance craze And it's got all the checkerboard imagery and the two-tone and the scott the the skank and rude girl That is all Started from 60 scott influence, but now we're in the late 70s And like I said, they have reggae to choose from they have rock steady and scott It's all it's all been established already plus they're mixing it with punk I had the honor of playing with dave wakeling who was the lead singer of the english beat like Talk about another pioneer of that style of music that now i'm in his band for almost three years i'm young All the dudes in the band had like a nickname for me. They call me young drummy or or young buck and like it was amazing to play that style of music with the guy that Founded and created that style and for people that don't know the english beat You've heard their music in countless movies and radio Yeah all over the radio and even sting is wearing an english beat shirt in a couple police videos Like don't stand so close to me. You see the beat girl that iconic Beat rude girl, which is an influence from jamaica, but it's it was a very like uk thing Yeah, and the little hats just even the style exactly I saw them i saw The rx bandits open up for the english beat I was in high school. I mean it was years ago, but just unbelievable. I mean and That's another rx bandits or another modern band that uses that kind of reggae style. Um, which is that's the third wave. Yeah Yeah, exactly. So yeah that imagery and again you have the culture So with you know, you have the imagery a very strong rastafari then the last wave Of scott a hit which is referred to as third wave scott and you know bands in the 80s were playing third wave You had guys like bands like operation ivy um Skank and pickle like Oh man, there's just so many but then bands in the 90s That started to break on like commercial rock radio like bands like real big fish and of course no doubt So bands like no doubt really opened up another um Just kind of awareness to to reggae and scott because guen and interviews and and tom and all those and tony and adrian They would say we love scott. We love two tone scott. We love reggae. We love bands like fishbone like No doubt wouldn't exist our sound our style Would not exist if it wasn't for these bands that came before us and these styles of music And then there's cali roots reggae Which is that mixture of that kind of sublime sound and which now miguel from my group gillmigs and raj miguel who was part of that original sublime crew and kind of helping create that california Sound that people refer to so i've had i've had this amazing You know opportunity to work with so many of these legends and all the different eras of this these styles of music Well to keep it and and and then i mean unbelievable and just to back up to that third wave to keep it drum related I always think of a lot of orange county drums and percussion a lot of ocdp drums You know that was like which are amazing drums, but it's like that was the and i remember I remember looking it up one time like i think i was in like grade school I was like, you know, how much are these drums and i wanted to like piece it together and you could like kind of Price it out it was like oh the kid i want is seven thousand dollars or something right right like that but um And very clean and and like sharp honestly, maybe it's a contrast to like the original Gritty drum set of broken cymbals and stuff to then have this I mean, you know a travis barker. I know he's not reggae. You know what? I mean orange county like $15,000 drum set with sparkling a custom cymbals Right kind of a polar opposite side on on gear, but they had those you know Like adrian young with like the jelly bean kind of multicolored kit Um, yep. Yeah stylistically. It's different. I feel like the influence stort copeland had on drummers um, he single-handedly bridged like roots reggae to like two tone modern rock uh Almost progressive rock in a way. Um But the sound of his snare and then of course the splashes I think that's where a lot of people disconnect and They connect that with like authentic roots reggae But it's really like this strong stored copeland influence because the police was such a massive Band still just like their hits are played all the time everywhere And that drummer just like you'd hear carly with bob marley and carly wasn't the only drummer that played with bob marley He's definitely the most iconic and that sound is signature now bands in the two tone ska and the third wave ska They're now like well, wait a minute. We have this modern gear We're playing loud distorted guitars We're playing with rock bands and punk bands and we're fusing punk and rock into this style with a reggae and a ska influence Let's just do our thing with it And of course the sound of the snares and the cymbals had to cut that that was another influence now you're competing with like Big distortion guitars and like a marching band of horns blowing, you know Yeah, and I mean with stewart copeland you gotta It's like it gets like a caveat of like He's also like a virtuoso Amazing not that these other guys aren't but he's special stewart copeland as a drummer is just like His ability is Very very very high. I mean in in that era of just like he he's up there with the best of him For sure for sure. So that's worth Worth noting. Yeah, completely So getting to you and the modern, you know, what you're doing, which is being basically a great ambassador to Reggae music and like I said at the very beginning Where people may think why aren't you getting like a traditional Jamaican reggae drummer? It's like I think now everyone understands that gill is A real deal traditional reggae drummer. Um, so I mean, it's out there wicked beats is out there. Where can people Like where can people get it all that good stuff? I mean, I I feel like that was unless unless I'm jumping the gun But that was like an unbelievable and it's not over, right? Yeah to back up a little bit and say you said the third wave It's still people are still playing reggae all the time. I mean and scott. It's it's still going Yeah, and and then the marriage to hip hop and dance hall and you know, there's And the electronic influence in the electronic era So I feel like we covered a lot of ground of course There was a lot of other stuff I could have mentioned a lot of other names I could have mentioned this was a great conversation to understand where things came from How they developed and and with me not even being behind a drum set like ideally I can do I can do this conversation sitting behind a drum set and literally like playing everything for you But um, it's important to educate people just like I said with jazz There's a big difference of how you're going to play in a bebop group in a bebop setting Then you would in a big band or if you're playing a ballad with brushes Then you're not just going to you know step all over the song and and play busy and fill things up It's the discipline and reggae for a drummer is such a huge part of understanding the feel of it Um, because and that's one last thing I'd even want to end with where drummers might say oh That's easy. You're just doing the same thing over and over again Good point. It's so much deeper and it's so much more than that Plus, there's a lot of variations that are really difficult So I hope this gets people to want to dig in and kind of check out these pioneers that i'm talking about and Even carlton barrett like the the magic of his hi-hat patterns I I refer to carly as the tony williams of reggae like What he did his phrasings his setups his sound god It's you know, it's it's no different than studying a pioneer like bonham with rock and elvin jones with jazz It's carly and loyd those guys. They all need to be studied equally The cool thing is is I mean, uh, there's so many great genres of music out there, but it's it's reggae and All of these sub categories gem like scott all this it's really fun to listen to for everyone So it's like, you know your wife or husband or girlfriend or parents Like most people like reggae, you know what I mean like most people enjoy that kind of music Where is if you're listening to like, um, well as a former as a member of dillinger escape plan before Your mom might not like dillinger escape plan as much, you know That's a little heavy. Yeah, it's harsh exactly and and there's a time and a place because look I'm not always in the mood to hear that kind of music let alone play it So whatever mood you're in let that cater to what you want to listen to i'm i'm not always going to listen to dillinger and No, dillinger is awesome though. I mean, I should say that as a kid I got a second hand copy of uh calculating infinity and it's just like, you know, it's nuts. It's not it's insane It's it's it's totally nuts and and it's amazing and it's some it's musicianship at its highest level and Some people might hear it and like say it's unlistenable But any musician with any kind of technical understanding would say That is almost impossible to play perfectly set. It is extremely hard to play but but because reggae comes off as Quote unquote easier doesn't mean that it's it is easier. It just means it's I mean, it's a different feel It's a different vibe which which it takes a lot of skill for a man like you to have Those are two extremes. So you've you've got it figured out for sure. Thank you. Appreciate it. Absolutely. Well, um, you can go to gillondrums.com g i l on drums.com or gill sharon s h a r o m e Dot com Gil this is just awesome everyone should check out wicked beats And gill's latest project gill miggs and roge Um On that note gill. Thank you so much, man. I mean we kind of met through instagram and just sort of Went back and forth and i'm so happy to have you on the show Dude, thank you. Thank you again and thanks to the listeners. I hope you guys enjoyed this all my socials are just at gill sharon Hit me if you guys have any questions or want to know more about this and you can keep an eye out for all the other projects I have In reggae and everything else I do outside of reggae Awesome. Thank you gill. Take care. Thanks If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning