 Good morning, and welcome to the sixth meeting in 2023 of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. Our first item of business is a decision to take some items in private, items four and five. Our members are content to do so. Our next item of business is the second evidence session of an inquiry into a just transition for the Grangemouth area. Industry is the second highest carbon emitting sector in Scotland after transport. There is currently a target for 2045 for Scotland to cut greenhouse gas emissions to net zero, and Grangemouth has a significant role to play in achieving that. The committee is wishing to look first of all at how we can support and incentivise and de-risk this transition, firstly in the Grangemouth area to benefit companies and individuals. Today's session will focus on the current workforce in Grangemouth and the skills needed to facilitate a just transition. I now welcome Cliff Bowen, executive councillor and Pat Rafferty, regional secretary from Unite the Union, Gordon MacGinnis, director of industry and networks, Ronnie Palin, regional skills planning lead for Central Scotland, Skills Development Scotland and Dominic Pritchard, national organiser for the GMB Union. As always, if members and witnesses can keep their questions and answers as concise as possible, that would be helpful. Prior to questions, I invite members to recognise my voluntary registration of Unite membership. Does anybody else wish to call Smith? I can refer to my voluntary registration as a member of Unite and the GMB. I am a member of Unite. If I could start with questions, I will come to Unite, first of all, or Cliff, whoever wishes to answer. The committee is looking at a just transition, and there is some debate around definitions of a just transition. What do you understand a just transition to mean, in particular in relation to Grangemouth? Is it principally about the plan? Is it about the wider economy? What is the understanding that the Government is about to publish a draft plan—that is due out in the spring—a draft plan for Grangemouth? Do we have a shared understanding of what a just transition will look like? That is a good question, because I suppose that the answer is twofold. What do you see as being just as far as a workforce is concerned? When you look at Grangemouth particularly, because it has such a big oil and gas workforce that is based around the Grangemouth area, and for Unite in general, we have a big membership that sits in the oil and gas offshore sector. The offshore sector is linked to Grangemouth because we have the Fortesfield Pipeline coming into the plant in Grangemouth. When we speak about a just transition, it is then about how can we ensure the longevity of the workers who are working in the new sectors in the sense of the ability to move from sector to sector. As renewables sector begins to grow and we create manufacturing bases in that sector, the skills that we have got with the oil and gas sector can move seamlessly into the new sectors that are then created. Part of that, of course, is with terms and conditions. If you get somebody that is earning £50,000 to £60,000, maybe a refinery or offshore, then what sort of job skill base can we transition into earning that sort of income in that quality of life? If you try to install a confidence in the oil and gas sector and oil and gas workforce that when we speak about a just transition, then there is a transition that is there, and it would be just—I do not know how you measure that. It is going to be difficult. For us, how you measure it would be if there are 31,000 people working directly offshore on an oil platform, and where does 31,000 people go in a just transition? How many people have been going to employment elsewhere within the economy of Scotland in different areas, in Grangemouth in particular? When we are focusing a bit on Grangemouth, if we are all driving electric cars and net zero, how do we get to a net zero and working along with employers to try to reach their targets? However, if we are no longer manufacturing the same liquidity going out of a refinery, and we have already seen 250 jobs being lost in the refinery, then what other jobs are going to get lost as we move to more and more electric cars? I do not think that we are flying about in electric planes or driving big trucks or things that do not have electric power yet. Hydrogen will be the thing for that. Where does that workforce go then in a just transition? For us, in a general sense, in a just transition, it has been coming difficult to try to install a confidence in, particularly in the oil and gas workforce, that there is something there that you can move to quite quickly within that transition. The just transition is probably moving at a faster pace than we are creating jobs. I do not think that we are creating enough jobs to keep pace with a just transition. The war in Ukraine and security supply has probably slowed things down within oil and gas for obvious reasons. At one point, my oil and gas was becoming a toxic term. I think that it is installing the confidence in the workforce about a just transition, but a just transition for us would be about moving from one sector to another sector and keeping that security of employment and trying to keep the terms and conditions that people have been being used to over the years. I will come to Dominic now. Similar to the question that Pat has addressed, what are the challenges of the barriers? Pat is describing the jobs that are a lack of confidence that jobs will move over. Is there a framework in place that people's skills can be transferred to other sectors? Are we at a stage at the moment where we are clear what those other sectors are? The evidence that we heard last week, there are quite a lot of energy sources or energy plans that are not yet developed or feasible or commercial. Is it clear where the workforce would move them to, what the just transition future looks like? To be quite honest, there is no clarity of where these men will go, men and women will go. Before I took up my role with GMB, I was one of those guys who worked on nights at Grange Mouthfifiner as a welder. Most of the workforce for these contractors is made up of short term transient workers. Myself have never qualified for redundancy money, so I have never had two years full employment from 63 this year. Since I left, since I served my time as a welder, I have never qualified for redundancy money, I have never had two years constant work. There is no confidence speaking to my members about a just transition. Before I came on to this part of my role in GMB for three years, I was in the offshore sector as well. Again, vast majorities of the offshore sector are made up of short term transient workers who are stood up and stood down as the work comes in and out. What happens again is that this just transition, if you want any further qualifications to move over to another sector, you pay for it yourself. Companies will not invest in their workforces because they are short term transient workers. There is a total lack of confidence in just transition right through the sector with the guys on the short floor. We have seen a thing here that Pat touched on, an electric vehicle. This morning, I was listening to the BBC as I was coming down for my shows and they were talking about how Jaguar Land Rover has got no facilities to make these electric batteries for their cars moving forward. These things are talking about sending them out to Spain and they are volatile to transport. These are the things that we have got to look at in this country before we actually know what we are doing with a just transition, as we move supposed to be away from oil and gas to green energy. We have also seen 177 men this week paid off at methyl, paid off on Monday. They were told that there is a 45 days notice, but if you all want to volunteer today, you can. Where is the just transition here? I think that other members will probably come to the situation in methyl and BiFab, but we did have hopes there. Looking back, it was a unique submission that said that when the new owners came in, there were promises to create upward of 1,000 jobs, but, as you have said, there has been recent redundancies at that yard. It is concerning if that is a microcosm of where the just transition is headed. I really hope that that is not, but that is a yard that was turned around to provide for the off-wind sector, and we have lost the industrial heart of that community through the years as a result of what has happened at BiFab. No doubt, Pat Sawyer, regarding Harland and Wolfe at methyl and Arlish, they both opposed tooth and nail joint trade union recognition. I opposed it. Myself and my senior officer went out one day, and we were basically insulted by a guy out there. That changed when the foreign labour work was not getting paid. Up until now, although they have in the agreement regular meetings with the trade unions, we have never had one. It is a yard where one day they had welding consumables for the welders to work, but the following week, they did not have grinding stones for the players to clean steel because they were not paying their bills up until the very fact that they had no toilet paper in the place one week. I was going to bring Pat in. There will be other members who will look at further questions on BiFab and that as an example, but part of achieving a just transition, there is obviously government policy, there is the role of trade unions, there is also business and industry. Do you feel that the business and industries that are based in Scotland are committed to this programme and that they have a shared understanding of what it means? I think that BiFab is probably a good example of where things start to collapse a bit when you are looking at trying to get work generated. That is no ordinary to governments. Sometimes employers need to invest and they need to put their hands in their pockets. We have seen that with the Canadians who took over the BiFab yards. There is a lack of investment within the yards and they are being prepared to put money up front themselves. The concerns clearly that we have met on in the Harlan and Wolfe yards now is that they are likely to concentrate on shipbuilding than they are in renewables and offshore. That is where their base comes from and it fits me in a portfolio across Ireland and the rest of the UK. We can see them being made within there as opposed to trying to bid for the big contracts. When you look at all the offshore wind contracts that have been done, sea green, NNG, we have got all of them five jackets. I think that we are struggling to get five jackets in the BiFab yards. We do not have the infrastructure in place that can compete in the global free marketplace where those contracts go. The big developers will get the contracts for difference, they will contract out to tier one contractors and that is where it all collapses. It goes in a global free marketplace and we cannot compete with it. We do not want to compete with a labour cost in any event in that, but we do not have the infrastructure. Today, there has been that lack of investment in the BiFab yards. Those wind farms that are on the seabed, the sea green project is the deepest offshore wind farm in the world. The technology that is getting done right now is globally leading. We are leading on it. Some of these are 59 metres deep. The BiFab yards do not have the drainage to even lift things at that size. It does link all the things that are connected in there. You need to manufacture basis supply chains to do that. We have got the green free ports now, so Fort Valley is one of the green free ports. You want to capitalise on that green free port. Of course, there will be concerns about whether you are just going to be shifting labour somewhere else in Scotland into a green free port. In that area, it suffers as a result of that. You hope that the green free ports generate new work coming internationally across the globe when it is creating new jobs. We have a big—Scotland is a big opportunity, but the difficulty will be where the manufacturing base is going to land. If it goes out to contracts for difference and things like that, then I am very sceptical. CS Wind and Mackrahanich went under in the liquidation only on-shore wind tower manufacture in the whole of the UK. The bit that you see on the ground is up there with the thingies. That was the only one in the UK in the Koreans' Command, took the company and ran it on the ground. We had to, to such a degree with the intraminterdicts, placed on the site to stop the masset and strip it on the site. When we talk about just transit, going back to just transitions again, then that does not install confidence in a workforce about—we have no hearing announcements taking place every other week about 500 jobs here. There might well be—I think I can see the Cromarty Firth has got a big opportunity to get involved. It might well be that it is just going to assemble things. Things are going to get manufactured elsewhere, come in on a big diesel power ship, and come in to Scotland and get assembled there in Empathood. I will have other members who will come in about green free ports and some of those broader issues. Okay, we will return to that and let other members—if that is okay. I will just ask a final question to SDS and I will invite Fiona Hyslop to come in. The climate skills emergency action plan was published in December 2020. I think that the Government has promised a fresh plan to come forward in 2023. What evaluation has been done of the 2020 initial plan and has it achieved the desired outcomes? It is quite short to be looking at a refresh from December 2020, but it is not much time to be looking at it. The climate emergency plan, when we took it at first, initially, SDS was going to focus on the areas of high-carbon employment, and the Government asked us to align with their own work around the climate emergency, so it became a very broad document. Through the work that we have done, we have tried to focus on the key areas. We have had two work packages, one looking at it in the right sound, but just defining what a green job is and getting some kind of definition around that. That report was published in November last year, so it tries to bring some sense to it, so it reckons that about 40 per cent of jobs in Scotland will be impacted by a transition to net zero in some way. That is either because there are going to be changes to existing job roles in terms of the technology that comes in. There are going to be completely new roles that emerge as technology is implemented, or there is going to be a requirement for more staff of a particular discipline. In one of the submissions to the committee, I think Select, which is the trade body for electricians, flagged that there was a demand for more electricians because of the technology heat pumps and ground source heat pumps for more technicians of that level. That has been a key piece of work. The other piece that we have been doing is looking at further and higher education in terms of the changes that they may need to make to some of their provision as we move on. I think that when it comes to investment in that space, probably both from a Government and from an SDS point of view, to make a real impact, we probably need a bit more investment into direct action into some of those areas that we have worked on, such as the greening of apprenticeships. We could do more in that space with a bit more resource, but we appreciate across the board that the public funds are under pressure. We have tried to adapt our programme to meet those needs. Government has indicated that it is going to do the refresh by the end of 2023, and we are working with the man and industry to help them in terms of that refresh programme. Last week—I will bring a few on in a second—we had four reports in. They were questioned about the job figure. Some of the frustration that has been expressed by the unions is about confidence in the workforce. There are lots of high numbers, although there will be 10,000 more jobs here. People struggle to see them being materialised. Do you, as an organisation, have your targets and job figures attached to the plans? Do you think that you have the confidence of the workforce? We are working in Scottish Enterprise, and Scottish Government made a submission on behalf of the Green's Mouth Future Industry Forum. We are working alongside them with that. It is probably too early, in my opinion, to be very specific about what the opportunities might be and when they might materialise. I think that we can only work alongside them. Pat made the point around oil and gas. I have done a lot of work with the sector when prices took a serious dip. Pat was right in terms of what was viewed as a toxic sector. That is where people were looking to move from that and come back to the kind of just transition element. That has changed, obviously, of what has happened in Ukraine and security supply. Therefore, I think that the life expectancy around Green's Mouth in terms of petrochemicals probably extends as well. That transition to the new technologies does not necessarily move it back, but there will need to be space on the Green's Mouth campus to utilise both existing and new technologies as they come in. Mr Palin, do you want to add anything? I think that Ms Hyslop has several line of questions. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Clearly, just transition is a massive area, and we will look at broader areas, but we want to focus on Green's Mouth to almost drill into it to give us an illustration. The committee has heard that we already have a fairly developed understanding of skills required for the next five years or so of the transition. Do you agree with that? And how confident are you that Scotland's skills system will provide the necessary skills in the right numbers at the right time to meet this anticipated demand? That is the short term for the next five years. If I can maybe come to you first, Gordon, from STS, and then I will come to the union representatives. I think, and again, the consultation accepted a response in from Forth Valley College. It is probably the college in Scotland that, from an industrial perspective, works closest with the range of industrial partners, a huge investment in the new campus. They deliver the biggest number of engineering apprenticeships for us. So, I think the complex is well-served from an academic point of view in terms of further education. It does have relationships into higher education, and it's about how those work over. So, I am confident over the next five years that there is a strong provision there. Beyond that, then, I think there's a degree of working with industry, trying to anticipate and plan for what happens next. So, how does hydrogen go from being a product to being able to service the domestic households, that type of thing? That's still evolving. The technology, we are not, I guess, technical experts. We need to engage with industry itself, so with Scottish gas, with the Scottish Power Energy Networks, and others like that, to understand how hydrogen-type systems will be implemented. Carbon capture and storage. As I explained to Ronnie, we made our first plan, first energy skills investment plan, probably 2012. We anticipated to be something like 18,000 people employed in carbon capture and storage at this stage. That investment from a UK government has never really came to realise those initial projects. So, there's still a whole industry that's going to develop and mature around that. Some of the skill sets will be similar, but we'll just be deployed into a different technology. For the next five years, from what you were saying earlier, you're probably focusing on electricians, heat pumps, that kind of area for the next five years. Is that good to say? I'm delivering the technical skills. Let's move on then a bit to what you've just been talking about. On fourth ports themselves, I've noted that after 2030, the requirements are less clear of what's needed. The new emerging technologies, as I said, with hydrogen in particular, might demand new skills. How confident are you that the Scottish skills system can put structures in place to identify and respond to potential emerging demands for skills in a timely manner? A lot of the focus is looking at young apprentices or new people coming in or younger people coming in to the college etc, but we need to get back to the just transition issue about what can be put in place for older workers. I think that we'll look at the organisations where that's worked really well. You get some deal at Scottish and Southern Energy and they've now published two reports, so a deep engagement with the workforce in terms of what that transition means for them as individuals and then what type of support do people want to move across from carbon intensive roles to greener roles. That's a really good example of where communication has come in, but also skills enhancement and support, because you're right that the workforce that's there is probably going to be the one that will be there in 10 years' time. That's a process of explaining the technologies, taking some of the fear factor out of it, and there's obviously going to be concerns around things like job security, so whatever comfort and assurance can be given around that, but all the indications are positive in terms of job growth. You asked about levels of confidence, so one of the challenges just now I think are around labour supply and availability of people, and less on the technical competence of our colleges and universities in terms of being able to support and work with people. I think we have a fantastic college estate across Scotland. I'd like to see it open a few more evenings a week and maybe even at a weekend, because that's when people have time to engage in learning and face-to-face stuff, and I think that's something that we need to look at, particularly for a site the size of Grangemouth through the concentration of workers in that area. Can I maybe come to unite first and then to Dominic? Any reflections on that on the short term but also on the longer term, and what does that mean for older workers? Part of what we want to do is come up with suggestions of what you think it should look like, and is that SSE model quite a good one, particularly for that way forward for maybe the Grangemouth area? Good morning, everybody. I can't tell you how happy I am to be here. I'm the executive councillor for Unite for the Sector, but I'm also the convener at any else in Grangemouth, so I live in Grangemouth and I've worked there for 31 years, so I'm pretty well stood to give the background and where we're heading and stuff. First of all, what I'd like to say is that people within our sector, but within Grangemouth particularly, we realise and recognise the need to decarbonise. We've been talking to that for a long time in this sector, and when I left the school 30 years ago and I fell into the refinery in Grangemouth, the life that this industry has given me has been, I would rip your arms off for it, a working-class kid for Grangemouth and the life that I've had. For me, my mission statement, if you like, is to try and encourage that and try and engender that for working-class kids in that area for the next 20, 30 years. We talk about just transitioning and we talk about skills and stuff. At Grangemouth, we talk about the Grangemouth site as being a net exporter of talent for the Varoian gas world and for chemicals, because of the highly skilled workforce that we have there. With transferable skills, it's pretty easy. We took all our lead conveners and activists from the chemicals, pharmaceuticals and refineries across the UK. Everybody talks about just transitioning and about carbon capture and hydrogen and stuff, but for me it's a lot of talk, but what does it mean? We went down to Imperial College in London and they've got a carbon capture storage facility there, because we wanted to understand exactly your point. We did a lot of work on mental health and you talked about just transition, so what does it mean for older workers? What does it mean for the workers who the GMB are talking about here? I can only talk to the people who work in the installations. That's more the contract workforce. I'm talking about the core workers that work on these sites and in my sector. So you talk about upskilling and the constant need to upskill all that, but what does that mean to somebody who is a mechanically-minded person? Everybody in this room has got a niche that they're good at, that they go to. Everybody around here, they'll be comfortable in the space that they work in. If you're a mechanically-minded person, you're a maintenance person. You like getting your hands and stuff. You like getting bolts and nuts and spanners and stuff. If you're an instrument person, you're a bit more analytical, electrical, different skillset again. If we're telling people who are electrically-minded, by the way, we need you to change. We need you to change, by the way, pretty quickly because I've never seen a change in my sector at such a rate of knots at the minute. Everything's changing day by day, so we're saying we need you to change there. What does that do to their mental health? What do we do with workers that can't upskill, that can't transition? We took all those key activists and we went to Imperial College and we had a look at Carmen Captur and it's pretty straightforward. Hydrogen is a by-product of a lot of the systems that we have at Grangemouth. We understand these things and I guess what I would say is this. If we move people from plant to plant, or me as a technician, if I was to move from an ethane plant to a benzene plant, for instance, all I need to understand as an engineer, as a technician, as an electrician, as a maintenance person, as what pressure is at it, what temperature is at it, what does it look like if it escapes, what do I need to know, is it toxic, is it a carcinogen? See once I understand that, you give me 36 months and I'll be able to run that plant for you. The transition to hydrogen, to carbon capture, to project acorn, for us as a workforce at Grangemouth, I'm not saying it's going to be simple because it's complex. Hydrogen is 1.2 billion investment in Grangemouth site, it's big cash, but these are jobs for the future. I'm the convener at FBS, which is the 40s pipeline system, which is the most critical piece of infrastructure, sorry if I'm preaching, if yous all know like it, but I'm just letting you know like it, for those who don't. It's the most critical piece of infrastructure for gas, oil and gas supply for the UK. We're open to 2045, we understand the need to decarbonise, we get it, but we are on this, we're doing this already, we have a Grangemouth energy network, so it's all these key young technicians and engineers who really really do, they're echoing the stuff that I've heard here about you know like, we had seen for a bit like people maybe wanting to leave our industry right, but now people are staying because we're going to be the ones that will decarbonise this and we've set up these teams right that go right look, this process here, can you go and have a look at that for us right and tell us how we can decarbonise that and we've got like 10 or 12 projects at the Grangemouth site already right that are going on at the minute that are decarbonising that site. So in terms of the future, you know it's long term, you know we have these targets for 2030, for 2045 and in terms of you know you asked about skills and about you know about older workers and stuff, it's actually just STEM stuff, you know that's all we really need, we need the investment for the colleges, you know we've got great apprenticeships and stuff like that, the apprentice programme we have is first class, the kids that we produce out of those apprenticeships, they're highly skilled people when they come out you know and they can trick, they could go and work anywhere on the planet at any time but they're staying at Grangemouth because they see the future there, you know you talk about acorn, you talk about carbon capture, hydrogen, it really is quite a simple transfer for us like what we do need is investment in infrastructure because what business is telling me up and down the country is you know we're willing to go and we're willing to invest in hydrogen but where is the infrastructure, if you take Germany for example there's an app you can get in your phone in terms of filling stations for your hydrogen cars, in Germany there's something like 90 hydrogen filling stations, in the UK there's 10 and there's only two works, so why would business go and invest all this money in hydrogen and 1.2 billion is a lot of cash right, that is a lot of real money that's going to go into Grangemouth site, that'll create these long term jobs for the future, good, well paid, manufacturing jobs that working class kids like me will be able to enjoy and put all that money back into the economy right, clean fuels, decarbonised but why are we going to do that if there's no plan for infrastructure and stuff, so we need a bit of that as well but terms of the skillset stuff and the just transition piece we're speaking at the minute for older workers, for newer workers it's not going to be that difficult for us as the truth of the matter and we've we've actually got quite a bright outlook at Grangemouth on this stuff and that's why I said to you I really welcome these conversations because we've been talking to us for a long time within Unite right and particularly in my sector but as a portonian who lives in the in the town really really welcomed pretty straightforward we're on the mental health stuff we get it we understand it but the transferability of skills will be quite simple for us we just need this pipeline of kids that are coming through for the Grangemouth area from the central belt if you like because we when the apprenticeship advert goes in the Falkirk Herald right I'm the best I'm everybody's best friend right because everybody wants their kids in there right people will tell you that people are turning away from an industry that's not what we see right we we get thousands of people applying for these apprenticeships because they understand there's a long-term future there and if you look through the lens of a decarbonised site which is where we're all trying to get there I grew up in Grangemouth Park grew up in Grangemouth right the the sky in Grangemouth when I was little was orange used to vibrate with the flares right we last year we've had some of the small the lowest flaring totals we've ever seen and we're also putting more money at the ground flares there so you know the emissions are cut all the time so the future's bright for that site like in terms of skills the pipeline if we just continue where we're going the STEM stuff I think there is some stuff we need to do with the schools my I have a 14 year old and he was picking his subjects last year and I spoke to his guidance teacher about green jobs green green energy green jobs green skills where is this stuff do you know like what should they be studying what science is it is it physics is it still chemistry is it biology is it general science is it environmental science because when I was at school it was physics and chemistry that was all you needed right never never worry about the rest of you want to go and work in my industry and the girl and god bless the teachers and the nurses that kept us afloat the working class people afloat during covid and stuff she didn't know what I was talking about she didn't understand what where I was going with the conversation about green skills and green energy so there's this disjoint between you know the education piece and what industry are telling telling us and I'll finish on this because I appreciate I've spoke about there like but I've been waiting for a long time for this tell when we went to imperial college right and this this will just illustrate my point right we had the imperial college it's the cream the real boffins right a science and stuff like that that we were dealing with all these young kids very enthused it was great to see and with a professor there with more letters after his name that you can get imagine Colin Hale like a very interesting guy so with them in the morning and with the cia the chemical industry association in the afternoon we had the the executive guy for that the chief executive for there and he was telling us in the morning he says he says look we're worried we can't get we can't get kids to come into this industry and stuff like that like a that what business is telling us we're struggling to attract talent we then take all these key activists and conveners to imperial college we all these wee boffins right and I mean that they were they were superb right very enthused and stuff talking about all this stuff decarbonisation let's get after this stuff and they were running this plant and they were only kids right and they were up they were running pumps going on asking it stuff and they said to us when we were leaving can we give you our CVs right because we're struggling to get jobs right and I said I had a meeting with Ed Miliband Pat and I met with Ed Miliband and Birmingham to talk about exactly what we're talking about today right and and I said to him and I'll say it to you today how can it be that a union convener for arrangements right is having the conversation to try and join up imperial college cia and we can't get people we can't get jobs how can that be do you know so there's some just there's some we need something to join on that up and then if I use the illustration of me talking to my my kids guidance teacher there is this wee breakdown do you know we don't know what to be seen as a sunset industry we want to be seen as a sunrise do you know we want to be known as green workers right because we are going to decarbonise right people can protest and it's very laudable do you know like going on their shoulder roads and chucking stuff at paintings I get all that right I understand it all right and understand the frustration but we will be the ones that decarbonise it you know it'll be government it'll be employers and it'll be unions that will help to decarbonise and save the planet and then save the world okay thank you very much Cliff and that was definitely worth the wait as I hope from you and certainly that's what we want to do is to provide that spotlight on what is possible and how it can be done and thank you so much for that contribution we've learned a lot from that very briefly it's on the digital passport stuff because we are working a lot when it's about the clearly juicy about upskilling the older workforce within the oil and gas sector so we're doing a lot of work on the digital passport mainly concentrating just now on upstream and the offshore platforms but that's not stopped up to coming downstream and actually we're speaking now to any of us about being part of that digital passport so the transferable skills is there we can see that skills is required to move the oil and gas to to wind or to the timings and then upskill people to make that transition so we are looking at going downstream as well as upstream on that and Dominic if GMB is what you you are focusing more on short term and the concern that they have to pay for their training etc when we'll need the labour and we'll need their skills so what would you suggest in terms of what you did we've got a situation here where we've got a life school 1977 started my time as a welder a lot of kids at that time didn't get their their apprenticeships and whatever people went on to youth opportunity schemes and whatever people were lost full full generations were lost to training and apprenticeships a lot of guys but i went to school with that time community industry is semi skilled workers etc now we have a in the engineering and construction agreement with unite and ourselves our joint signatures too we have got a continuous improvement scheme there where guys who were semi skilled etc could move up into trades where training wasn't as academically onious as what you'd get an apprentice come in at 17 with so it was it's based more on core manual labour skills etc now the thing is is this apart from one engineering and construction companies in britain none of the rest of them have got proper facilities to train people they're relying on colleges etc now the thing is we're known the worst skill shortage in over 40 years at this moment in time these guys would be happy willing to be trained up but we don't have the facilities for them they also don't have any if they're they're struggling to get funding for them as well because although they pay the acitb levies everybody is drawing on that and the thing is is this if you do not use it for your industry it goes to other places so for tall set a company that mother won't be rich you maybe want to train people up don't have any way to send them but tesco can then take that funding to use it elsewhere so we're losing the funding what their levies are getting paid into as well and this is a thing that is happening right throughout the whole of industry engineering construction whether it is in there and grangemouth or elsewhere we have got guys in there who who could fill quite quickly the skill shortage ie pipe fitters mates who have been working alongside pipe fitters day in day out doing a lot of the work with the pipe fitter would have done but because he hasn't got the funding now he moved them on we're losing these the guys on the progressing and it's not filling the hole here for a skilled workforce that's very helpful i'm going to ask gordon if he could maybe respond to dominate as to how what is the solution and his skills about working on that and then my final question also to you as well my other question is we understand that the latest sexual skills assessment for the energy sector they expect the workforce to reduce by 2.5 per cent by 232 so what needs to be done to make sure there's sufficient opportunities in other sectors to offset this reduction and how can we ensure that these new opportunities will be highly skilled and highly quality jobs so you've got people who are prepared to move and train but can't get trained you know there's going to be a short fall in the future so how do you join up the dots with what dominix saying so part of what dominix described has been a short term contract work and i think that's a challenge certainly a challenge in terms of i think that some of that might change because the labour market is getting tighter so we've got evidence a company's shift in the balance of their core workforce to their contractors quite dramatically because when prices are going up and if they offer job security there's more liability or more likelihood that they will stick with the company who dominix describing though is a challenge in terms of people with a mid-set of skills and you're looking to skill them to probably below the apprenticeship you can do mature apprenticeships again it requires a resource to do that so that kind of mid skill set is probably a bit of a gap the colleges and we've been having discussions with the funding council that there's probably more we can do in that space particularly for those who are in shorter term contracts maybe not earning as much and i'm happy to follow up with dominix and have conversations with fourth valley to see if we could do something on a regional basis around that area government and it's within the inset strategy are looking at that kind of lifetime learning offer so we're working with colleagues in our sponsor division to look what that might look like in the future and that's presenting itself in different ways the need for that so touched in Cromarty so we've got a need for coded welders up there now that's short sharp training that says not a long course it says probably a week and then assessment and probably a cost for that but £2,000 currently there's nothing within the skill system that does that we don't have a career development loan system at anywhere in the UK now that would be able to tap into that to reimburs it so i think we need to look constructively at a whole range of things in it is perhaps making a contribution towards individuals that are going up skill themselves as opposed to paying for the full amount because it gets back to ideally be looking for employers if they're going to benefit from those enhanced skills for them to be contributing into that space as well so anyway we're hearing what we don't have what we want to do is what do we need and then that's part of what we'll have well there's one point there likes an engineer in the engineering and construction sector these guys what i was talking about there are what their their pay grade is grade three which is 20 less than this and an advanced craftsman so realistically speaking an advanced craftsman in our own grains mouth is 19 pounds 11 plus a second tier payment bonus so as you can see it's quite an attractive wage even as a semi-skilled operative in there so the financial part for that guy's wages because what he's actually doing is he's learning there is still getting paid at 20 less than the the craft advance craftsman so it isn't as if he's having to take a drop in wages at that point to get trained so we've no got a problem on the likes of the financial aspect there for the the actual operative where we have the problem here is getting these guys trained the only company that actually does it on any scale is Babcox they've got the bus of school down at Tipton where they take the guys in and they take them in and they give them so much of the training the likes of the welders are in there constantly they've been in there myself money of time and what i'm saying is the other guys get sent down for a block release for the likes of pipe fitting plating et cetera rigging and then they do a lot of on-site training so it isn't as if it's the financial financial side of it it's more the fact to get in these guys actual trainers with the likes of Balfour Beauty or Motherwall Bridge or companies like that it's not the financial side of it i'm very conscious that's been quite a long time so i love that i'm having back to the convener that's very helpful thank you thank you we do value the contributions this morning we have as myself and Fiona has up here to blame but we have used up 50 minutes of the session already so if i ask members to be concise some of the areas we've been quite broad in discussion so far some areas people intended to ask might already been covered but i'll come to Maggie Chapman to be followed by Colin Smyth thanks very much and good morning everyone thank you for joining us this morning i want to just pick up on a couple of points from Unites submission you've talked about the dress transition having to be worker-led and you've obviously talked about some of the the issues that that you face just now but i was wondering if you if you could just give us a little bit more detail about what worker leadership looks like what's missing what and what it is that we we can actually do to make sure that we get that worker-led dress transition i think i've never been so violently in agreement with an employer in all my life right when it comes to this stuff and it's it's you want that on the record no but we are you know like in this you know everybody like i said to you right at the start of my last submission everybody recognises the need to decarbonise right we get it and you know any loss clearly like Grangemouth if you're talking about Grangemouth needs to be they want to still be in business people live in the locale they want these good well paid jobs you know we people can talk about green jobs you know it's a green job to me isn't it delivering pizza on an electric bike right and there's a tenuous link to that but if i'll think about a green job it's a 30 year career 25 30 year career that's going to lift working class kids and i'm not quite saying in poverty you know but i live in Grangemouth and there are areas that are impoverished right and i'm not quite saying that i'm this isn't a tally wolf with me but i was a working class kid that probably didn't come from much and the house i stay in the car i drive the the future i've been able to give my kids a dript your arms off her and i think the job we work for us is to be able to keep that going and in terms of your point about about you know the how it works you know this is about worker voice right as well as Karen just be seen about you know industry trying to make cash because it's about worker voice and we have had discussions with the company at every single level in this you know i talk about this stuff all the time right i'm everybody's best pal the new this is just like apprenticeship week at Ineos right because it's at European Works Council level it's the way that Ineos is set up you know they are the owners and then they have a a guy who works for them a director a guy called Tom Crotty i've had discussions with this all the time Pat and I have met with him you know we've met with the Labour Party we're coming to speak to you to everybody here today and it's all with this joint aim of you know the country's still going to need the goods that we created Grangemouth right it's still going to need energy right if the thing we've learned about putting and stuff like that i mean just look at the way people's bills have been affected by these global issues that affect us so you talk about security supply and about energy and about all that stuff and and and a decarbonised world right that we can create through these changes at Grangemouth and our processes and our systems whether it be through electrification whether it be through carbon capture whether it be through this hydrogen plants and stuff we need to be at the centre of that and we really are you know like the employers are listening to you know they're listening to us we're talking at all levels you know we're out we're talking about to the younger workers we're convincing them there's a future for them you know you talk about apprenticeships these apprenticeships are first class you know and if we can continue you know through the schools and get into the schools and talk to these young kids coming through and saying like look there is a future for you here you know i mean these jobs i've got friends who are who are contractors my brother-in-law was a contractor for years right people are wanting these jobs right but if they don't know they're there you know like a fitter's mate a well-paid job you know a pipe fitter's mate they're well-paid jobs these but if the kids didn't know they're there they didn't know where to look and they didn't know where to go with their skillsets and stuff eh but but to come back to your point about the just transition and the involvement in that it's just key for them workers to be listening to and i think actually you know as an example of how this can move into different areas of the economy and different sectors i think the Grangemouth model we've got a pretty spot on this time like eh and i've been involved in this game for 31 years and i said to you right at the start i've worked with i was BP for 25 years and i didn't ever feel as engaged in a process as i do at the minute like eh i'm at the heart of all this stuff you know if i go to the company and ask for for informational and you know i said i'm coming here the day do you know i mean it's like what do you need do you know i mean like well we have this real joint-up approach right that says look how are we going to keep this site open for the next 23 years for everybody for the good everybody like eh and actually for the good of the sounds about ironically but for the good of the planet as well because you know the easiest thing for us to do right is to shut all these places down in the UK right and it will just import for China for India and all that stuff but everybody in this room recognizes that it's not the way to go about this right because they don't they don't it's regulated as we are with this stuff right so we are well up for decarbonisation like i've said to you right we've got these processes in place we've got all these if you want to know more about these projects that we've got on like eh we can get you a visit to the site if anybody wants to come you know we've got Ed Miliband coming on the 24th of March where we are a delegation for labour we'll talk to anybody about this stuff right because it's no part of political this because it's about the future of the planet and it's a future of engagement with them right sorry carry on Pat I mean Clifskine a good example of where you go a good engagement where we are an employer that wants to to reach you and actually listen to the workforce and how best you can make the transition we've got difficulties with other employers though and so there are no all like that and I wish there were and offshore particularly is difficult just because of the logistics of offshore and there is a huge workforce in oil and gas and offshore and the supply chains that they come through that the geef figures are about 200 000 upwards and supply chains that's linked to oil and gas so it's getting the type of models that that's happening and arrangements right now to happen across all the different sectors it's a challenge I think for us to try and achieve that and what can we do to help with that because because I think you right it is a challenge and if the model is working how can we transfer it across but but what's what's stopping it what are the barriers well I think you know you've got the fair work agenda and this they are that you know that's fundamental and you know within the the Government itself so I think we can you can apply political pressure on some of these employers to make sure that they are engaging with the workforce and they are engaging with the recognized trade unions that are representing that workforce so whatever political pressure you can apply through the fair work agenda that would be helpful for us okay thanks and Dominic you I mean you talked about the failure of companies to recognize trade unions what what other than political pressure what do you see as as our role in supporting in supporting that worker-led just transition well I think what I would say is this it's not just been companies but have actually been in the way of the unions in this country in Scotland at this moment in time because at the very start of this green energy was these biomass plants etc, Nullar Hill just along the road etc where the councils Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow every one of them put obstacles to having the recognized trade union agreement in their for engineering and construction every one of them and we've seen what I've seen crash every one of these these energy waste plants have been now I was actually that was one of the first jobs I was tasked with in the GMB at the time to link up with my colleagues within Unite up in Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh to try and get these these projects done under the the national agreements and politicians from all all colours kept telling us but as long as you pay the Scottish living wage that is fine we had foreign labour coming in here who were exploited totally exploited because they were in here as a cheap option and it also kept our members out of work up and down the country and this is the reasons why we have mistrust within just transition etc here because we've not seen anything at all we've not gained anything out of whatsoever up until and this is why we're sitting here they're now waiting to see what's actually going to happen and so how how do we make sure that the contracted workers the transient work force is actually brought into those conversations what what is it that we need to do to make sure that you are brought into those conversations realistically speaking what you should be doing is writing in national agreements into any any discussions whatsoever making it mandatory not just an invitation to us and then somebody then comes up when I try and give you an explanation of why it shouldn't happen now we brought national officers uh bernard mccally for unite the union and also stevy kemp and up to arbergine and we were we were met with resistance we were we took our own officers up to dindey for bldovie again we were met with resistance these councils were handing job handing these out to engineering procurement contractors who then brought people in to basically stop the unions and not have any engagement with them and they only they didn't only do it in scotland and i've done it right across britain so as i say you've got a transient workforce who have seen green energy jobs built in their doorsteps and we're being locked out not part of it okay now i'll i'll live in east end of glasgo and i couldn't get on that job at palmydy okay okay and i suppose um pattern dominant you you talked about bifab earlier can i just ask is there anything else given given the job losses that have happened over successive periods in the past what is it that the scotland government other national bodies of the public agencies need to do to prevent that kind of job loss um happening again at bifab or or or equivalent sites elsewhere well it's harland and wilf now bifab do not exist uh what you need is total investment to revamp these yards the end of the day these yards are i worked in methyl away back in the early 80s and when bifab was going on i was i was part of the gmb party to oppose that and when i walked into that yard i was absolutely shocked about how how felt it was whereas when it was rgc and we were building a big uh jackets for the north sea the place was in pristine condition it was still hard work because there wasn't a great deal investment in it but if anything it went back to what i've seen then and what i have seen this time when i was in it walking around it it's even worse these yards need a total revamp basically you have got places abroad building these jackets in specialised conditions the way you would like it is like these places it's a production line for rose race against the cheapest car you can get and that's where that's where uh harland and wilf are at this moment in time they're telling us what they're going to build a couple of barges but they're going to get off bell fast personally speaking with the workforce what they're leaving there i cannae see how they'll do it they're telling me the nun i've got the paperwork here 13 welders 13 plateers right away that's not a proper skills match because there should be two plateers to every welder at least so that's putting alarm ringing alarm bells in my mind i do not think that place will be open much longer it'll be moth bald it's just the country lacking investment for the years at the bifab yards it's just um other other countries have invested heavily in infrastructure to get ourselves into a position that they're ready for that marketplace coming their way the danger for us in scotland is have we missed that boat it's a ship sailed as far as that goes because you know as we've said about mackrahanish and cs wind in bifab it's just struggling to see even the bifab of methyl some of these some of these platforms now for offshore wind you need deep you need deep water you need deep water to put these jackets and i don't even think you've got deep water of methyl they could take some of these jackets they'd need to you know they'd need to dredge the water of methyl so chromory furth is probably deeper and you've got an opportunity of chromory furth but if you don't invest in chromory furth if you don't get acorn looking back to clarity speaking about egrangemouth if you kind of get acorn up and running and carbon capture taking place then that puts a blocker on hydrogen egrangemouth we need carbon capture depending on what hydrogen path you're going to go down if you go down blue hydrogen we need carbon capture we'd like to all go down green hydrogen but we're not quite the area for trying to get green hydrogen or pink hydrogen it's all these different colours of hydrogen in we're nuclear we're nuclear based hydrogen any else would like small nuclear i know that's just not going to harm but that's what they would like a small nuclear to be in there and then you get pink hydrogen coming through but if you don't make these capital investments you're going to miss that boat in the same way as you're missing the the whole offshore wind contracts we're not going to get we just don't have the infrastructure because i was in a good meetings with the non-region well minister two weeks ago talking about all the same stuff the same rhetoric i've gave you this morning and they get it you know we speak to our colleagues in industrial which is a global union federation that we that unite are part of and i mean you talked to the Germans they're miles ahead of us in terms of this stuff like and it's like i said to you lorona but you know industry is ready to hit the button on hydrogen right 1.2 billion pounds right is going to go into Grangemouth light on the back of hydrogen right and on the back of acorn but there's a real frustration there and they're also making a car this grain of deer car that they make right and there's a hydrogen one going to be coming in on the back shortly they're going to make an electric version then a hydrogen fuel cell version right but if you were to go and try and buy a hydrogen car today right in the UK you wouldn't buy one right because one you probably couldn't get one and two there's nowhere to fill up right in Germany you know they've got a thing in jet you speak i speak to my German colleagues right and and there's a a kind of mantra in Germany and a policy that says you know there'll no be a town or city in Germany there'll no be 30 kilometers away from a hydrogen filling station right and they're away they've got 90 right you can buy cars they have a hydrogen then who in the UK we talk about it and stuff and you better believe in in a global market right anyone's built this they built this plant back to the point here about the negative press and that that you get right anyone's built this plant within within Flanders right and they could have built it anywhere on the planet right but they built it in Flanders right and the the the rhetoric that you get right from certain from certain movements right is oh it's just another chemical plant right but it's not just another chemical plant right it's the first investment of that type within anywhere in Europe in the last 20 years right millions and millions of pounds thousands of jobs created right and it's going to be the first net zero cracker within Europe right so it's not a chemical plant it is a chemical plant but it's going to be a carbon free a carbon neutral chemical plant so what is it that we're trying to achieve do you know do we want jobs do we want well paid jobs do we want to decarbonise or do we just want to ship it on do you know because we're going to nobody likes a cold shower right and anybody and you know and that's no that's no a flippant comment there right but I mean everybody looks at their own fuel bills in their house at the minute right me my kids have never been too cold right right I mean I'm not saying they're frozen right but they're what about going dad get that heating on and I'm like are you joking my fuel bills have went up to about 800 quid and I didn't stay in a mansion right I've not got a massive house like hey but I went for 120 pounds to 800 pounds at the top end at all that's most sustainable right but if we didn't get this stuff right if I look at the deals that are getting done across the industry at the minute it's America under the IRA stuff that's going on over there because they're just like in use come in use come and global capital is going yep and it's china right you look at the deals that are getting done in china at the minute right and it's all about securing energy for the future if we didn't start to get this stuff right in this country as Pat has already said and he's called to the left I've already said we're not even starting blocks in this stuff like in gym they're all away everybody in europe's away like norways talking about it like they're all the vocal plans in place and like I said to we've got industry going just use infrastructure and we'll invest we need to get this right then. Jamie Harcaw Johnson I think must have a brief supplementary and then Colin Smyth yeah so it's just a brief round and I could come in on hydrogen but I'm not because we might be covered a bit more but on the infrastructure so Dominic I was just going to ask you is there a kind of slightly uncomfortable question perhaps that some of the facilities that we do have I mean because you know the macrohannish was I think previously vester and then obviously kind of move through are some of the facilities we do have simply not suitable for the level of work that we need to be doing we talked about I think eight jackets you know during the the oil and gas boomer than all three there were a lot there was a lot of investment in sites in particular in my region the highlands and islands some of those are still available but the some of the sites that we've got you know methyl or others are they really suitable for what for what we're doing or do we need to almost re-look and see where we can investigate essentially building factories basically the land but you've got in these places I would say need massive investment I worked on they can add to see it as well during the north sea booms as well I worked in the yards and whatever now again while they were turning platforms out and turning them out on time on budget and state of the art there were never any investment was going on to keep them always moving I can recall the tension leg platforms that came from Japan and ended up in the big bay because the weld fractures on them were phenomenal and we were working on them as well to repair them to get out now the thing is is this up busy making money up busy turning the things out the never ever had the foresight to bring in new measures to to make ourselves more efficient now again just on this because it came up well we're talking here about Cromarty Firth et cetera I worked up at Invergordon just as an ace were threatening to close a plant I get paid off it I was a shop steered by Babcock's ungrange mouth I was paid off and I went up to Invergordon I was one of a few people up in Invergordon who was actually paying income tax they were coming from all over the country on bogus self employed also as well my Gregor's boasted about having a totally non unionised workforce I've never engaged in part verify this within the North Sea sector either when the when the collective agreement get ripped up as you remember part we were sent we were sent round trying to get a collective agreement my Gregor's totally refused to engage with us so I've got concerns about them actually getting green energy jobs can I just but the point I was kind of making is what we've got at the moment in terms of the infrastructure is it going to be is it upscalable or is it that need to really look almost like a longer-term plan and so like if we want to be in this market then we've got to invest in new sites that can meet for the future you will have to you've only got to ship building at this moment in time in the Clyde where they're building naval warships et cetera at the same time they're filling places in to make totally covered fabrication units where you will bring a ship in there and build it in in undercover and this is the sort of things you will have to do moving forward because even it sounds silly paint guarantees they're telling you that these platforms won't let us for the next 25 30 years you cannot do that in the facilities but you've got there because that's another element into decommissioning we don't want decommissioning to to take place whether they're putting it they're taking the platforms putting them on a barge and sending them to India on a beach and 14 year old kids will dismantle them and put their lives across and that's what's happening I'm not making this up that's what's happening and we need decommissioning when it's taking place to be and but you need places that are for purpose for decommissioning and we don't we just don't have to I saw it delts by a lower port authority the work they're doing there thanks very much just in what you were part of saying there about decommissioning we actually had a situation down in the tea down at Hartlepool where of it's a lot of years back the ghost ships that we're going back and forward for America to hear where you come in to the able yard there to get dismantled because nobody knew actually what these things what they had been transporting and also what they were made up of and and this is what is happening don't forget what these platforms were made away back in the early 60s fair the ones in Scotland early 60s early 70s in Scotland but other ones came in for other places at that time into the North Sea and God knows what will be in what will be in in them now the evidence we're hearing this morning is important to the committee and is interesting but we are trying to focus on Grangemouth when we will be pulling some of the discussion more pointedly back to the Grangemouth area Colin Smyth be followed by Colin Beattie sounds like a warning to me can you can can I just follow up the question I think the points about the need to invest in that infrastructure to avoid us making the mistakes with offshore wind that we made with onshore wind are incredibly well made who whose responsibility is that are we saying this this is government they need to take the direction and this is that is that what we're saying the industry doesn't seem to be delivering on it so is this about the government intervening more and I'm very struck I'm very struck in your submission part about the importance of an industrial strategy and really you know fulfilling the potential here what role would that play in tackling some of these issues we've got around the fact that infrastructure doesn't seem to be in place I mean thanks I did I did think that you will need government intervention in to to get the industrial strategy put in place and that infrastructure I think because this history is shown is that if you're just solely relying on industry itself to make the type of investments that you need to make in order to compete in that global marketplace it's just not going to harm it's not going to harm I can't see it so you know you do need that that sort of investment that other countries have done you know by by putting that infrastructure in place it's a chicken and egg scenario because I remember the by fab stuff and we lobbied very hard with SSC at the time we see green to get jackets put in there by five yards and I know the Scottish Government and yourself would have been involved in trying to do that but we couldn't we couldn't for the life is get them to put a jacket in it because it didn't need confidence the need confidence in the the business itself that was operating it and no confidence at all in the infrastructure so you do need to get an industrial strategy across Scotland that's saying like is this where is the economy moving and where is the future jobs coming from we know it's renewables and we know there's a huge marketplace we know there's a huge marketplace for for hydrogen if you've got hydrogen plant operating right now you can sell every bit either Germany will take a whole fee will take everybody and you could make a fortune with hydrogen plant just on the global marketplace let alone a domestic one which you could export is tremendous but unless you're good players the likes of any of us that are prepared to to put their their hands in pockets then it's going to be done to governments and maybe that's a joint thing between Scottish governments and Westminster because I don't think Westminster can just walk away from us in terms of a good nothing to do with us gov type thing when you're awarding these contracts through contracts of difference then I think you do need that investment and a strategy that fits in with the together here and I think that's right because as I say we were in Norway and we met with a Norwegian oil and energy minister and he said I think to us that surprise me but he said you know in terms of when the wind farms and stuff like that they're like look we're going to import them like we're not even we're not bothered about having the skills to make them right but their strategy is they want to have the I guess the brain power around about it you know how do you fix them how do you make them better and they're going to export that stuff you know they're going to specialise so their strategy is to specialise in that they're not so concerned about so you know if we look at bi farms stuff like that and all the stuff you've heard about jackets and why we know making this stuff in here well Norway are completely different right they're saying we're not bothered about all that stuff what we want to do is we're going to have the we're going to have the engineer to fix these things and we're going to sell that technology and we're going to specialise in that you know we're going to open up these centres of excellence where we're going to train our young working kids that are coming through and engineers and graduates and stuff and that's where we're going to specialise so you know you talk about strategy and the industrial strategy well they've got one of them like it so that they're already away and running on that stuff like it they're not they're not even bothered about making it they're just going to import it so and I think about you know where are we with all that stuff and I didn't see that you know when we talked to people about this stuff nobody nobody talks to us like that on that level eh so we definitely need to get ahead of the curve on that eh and work out what it is do we want to build them do we want to specialise are we got where are we going to go with that stuff eh? I remember in here evidence that was given at the time of BiFab and the CEO eh DJ Driver, the Canadian company that had the BiFab years at the time gave evidence we're all sitting here and he was getting examples of like Newfoundland in Canada eh he couldn't understand that you know they've got an offshore sector clearing eh off Newfoundland eh with oil and gas and any contracts and procurement that is awarded for then there must be a percentage of that gets manufactured in Newfoundland and if you don't manufacture that Newfoundland then there's heavy heavy fines that are put on the employers that don't abide by it and so there's this big penalty that sits there if you don't do it but the procurement process has got built in yet that if you're going to we're going to give you 151 tours you must manufacture X amount of that in this country that's all in there and you couldn't understand why and that's no it could do there was restrictions for Europe and all that at the time we you know but we're not in Europe in any longer but we're at it eh so that was the kind of thing but but that's how it operates elsewhere certainly to that perspective so you know how do you shift how can you make it possible that when you're getting 151 tours that you can politically ensure that some of that work and some of that you know supply chain is in here in Scotland for your selfish point of view in Scotland eh let alone within the UK then procurement's the thing but that's where it gets messy because you've got some of these contracts getting awarded to Westminster because it's Westminster that's getting the contracts for difference so they're getting it to to SSE or they're getting it to you know EDF or and saying to them there's 151 tours off the North Sea and then they get it and then they subcontract they subcontract they don't manufacture when tours the supply there is a supplier so they'll they'll subcontract it to tier 1 contractors and it all collapses so it's what powers does Scotland have within you know the powers within the Parliament that can stop that from taking place that says that we're going to give you all this work then we want an element of that we we couldn't manufacture it all anyway even if we wanted to we don't have the infrastructure to date but you need to look at that industrial strategy in terms of that what procurement how can you put in measures in place that guarantees work if you're going to be awarding these by Scotland where are we going to go with Scotland you know we've we've gave a lot of the seabed away now um to to various some countries i've got part of that seabed they're going to be putting one tours up there how do we make sure that we get that that work coming in here it's through the procurement process it's it i'll i'll get any bother from the convener if i start going on to supply chain development statements versus conditionality but i think there's a very well made point around around scotland can i just follow up on something from the gmb submission dominick um we've talked a lot about the importance of acorn to grains wealth and actually the importance of that project in terms of our jobs first just transition because of the opportunities that brings but i did know a concern in the gmb submission that hydrogen carbon catcher i've obviously got the potential to create jobs they're not going to replace the scale of the jobs that are going to be lost in the carbon intensive industry i mean do you have a view on what the difference will be between what we can create through acorn and carbon capture and hydrogen and what we've got at the moment um what is the what is the gap if you like i wouldn't i wouldn't yeah i've not got an actual figure there but what i'm saying is we've also got the carbon capture down at drax as well it's coming up now they've been talking about this carbon capture for god knows when i can remember peter head a way back early 2000s i remember a white rose as well down south as well because and these were going to be massive construction jobs at that time now it's what happens after that because as i say now this is actually going to go through pipelines into a seabed and whatever but again it's not after these plants are up and running it's what actually happens after that elixir we still we can recognise the elixir a grangemouth and that will still have work in it and other places will have work it's how we actually harness this moving on okay so it's effectively it's about delivering more opportunities over and above it's not it's not it's not a silver bullet effect what i'm saying is uh every every concept to make the environment cleaner is actually beneficial to the gmb i worked down at corrington many years ago when they were putting filterisation in there because the refumes etc now those two the the work that i took is really was all mechanical work which was uh which kept to our members gainfully employed it was a lot of welding plate and pipe work etc it was the same at folly refinery in south hampton massive uplifts of traditional boiler makers work and that would move forward as we move forward with these other plants that's going to be made the initial stuff would be there but again what we do not have in this country is pipe fabrication shops so it's where that's going to come from we've seen large modules coming in elixir in grangemouth is spain recently the furnaces that was getting done there because we do not have the facilities here and this is a consider again the supply chain again this is the thing here elixir it's all right having this if the in modular is the way to go where it comes it comes in and it's in you tie in the welds there etc building the plants but at the end of the day that might end up six months work here fab putting it in you've lost 18 months fabrication in this country where guys would have been working on that before it came out again we're infrastructures I think in terms of you know if you look any plant in grangemouth right where it's the kg plant where it's the benzene plant whatever right if the future is going to be hydrogen we're going to build these big plants right and this is just the start right as Pat said what does it look like after that right we're going to decarbonise the grangemouth site there right but then you're quickly going to move to once infrastructure is in place how we're going to fuel and how we're going to power the country right and these plants it's the same it's the same on any plant there for the contract workforce right they'll be able to come in and they'll be able to you know they'll have big shut downs they'll have big set piece activities you know we kind of get enough people at grade with it at the minute we've got three shut downs on the new we kind of get enough contractors that's the worry you know let's know that where's the work the worry at the moment is there's no enough people to do the work right we've got three at the one time how we quite go there I'm not sure but we are where we are a lot is due to Covid all that kind of stuff but so that that work will always be there and this is just the start of the you know if you want to talk about journeys right but it is the start of the journey because we're in a real shift this is a real a real moment in terms of energy you know the the scale and how quick this is moving and people are changing their opinions I'm you only have to look at BP right like no no no son it's like oh we actually are going to drill a little bit longer you know you'll Elon Musk was at that big conference in Norway the energy conference this is the electric electrification guy right this is what he does he sells electric cars right and and he's turning in and saying look you're going to need oil and gas for the next 20 years you're going to need exploration for the next 20 years so if he's telling you that we all need to be appreciative of the fact that it's still going to be here how do we decarbonise it it's going to be through you know hydrogen and it's going to be through a con so these plants this is just the start of this you know what does that look like going forward well that will depend on the decisions that are made at governmental level you know and how we legislate and infrastructure stuff that we put in place because you know dangerous a massive complex right you know and these plants are going to be there for a long time like a so there is going to be work for the contract workforce so there is still going to be this you know this fabric maintenance and the stuff that goes on because we're that highly regulated regulated you know and you need to do all this this painting that goes on and on the set and then you have the big set piece activities like a so there is going to be work going forward there and as I say it's just the start okay and the other and as I said earlier on we kind of get enough people at the minute and I guess that comes back to the bit that we spoke about right at the start about skills getting into these schools you know it's my son right it's Jude Bowen having this conversation about what do you want to be Jude right and he tells me he wants to play with Real Madrid and I says to him well that's fine right I'll be really happy if you play with Real Madrid but what is plan B right so what are the skills that we need for these you know for these green jobs you know and if it's hydrogen you know if he's going to go and work with SSE what what is it and that that that breaking the link there between the schools telling him what he needs today for these jobs like a so and I think if we can get all that right I think we'll be in a decent place better barcel won't have it that's fine okay thank you see me better play me better I'll bring in Colin Beattie to be followed by Michelle Thomson. Thank you. I've got a couple of areas I'd like to explore a wee bit and one of them is still about skills and you think we've done skills to death but there's an element of skills policies that I wanted to to talk about in previous inquiries over a period this committee has noted that some of the skills about many of the skills policies are geared towards younger workers and new entrants now that leaves a bit of a gap there perhaps and I just wondered what do we need to do to support the other workers that need upskilling and re-skilling I'm going to bring Ronnie in here he hasn't had much of a say so far so maybe he can comment on that well yeah I mean I guess from from our perspective so I sit on the skills work stream for the for the Grangemouth Future Industry Board and we're looking at all levels so we've just commissioned a piece of work there with with Optomat who are looking at the the sort of industry demand so that is looking at those existing workforce as well as new entrants and hopefully you know we'll look at both short medium and long term jobs and skills that are required so we're certainly doing it from a from an industry industry demand getting that evidence we'll look at the supply what provision we have specifically again to the Grangemouth area so that granularity based on some of the work Gordon mentioned around CSAP but this is now now drilling down into that Grangemouth level so from that that'll tease out hopefully where those gaps are and where we need to target our efforts in terms of upskilling Cliff's already mentioned that it should be easier transition in terms of the skills you know those jobs aren't that much different to you know it's a different feedstock but essentially the the job is essentially you know there'll be similarities with the skills and that transition should be should be easier but yeah a lot of focus will be on upskilling and reskilling I should imagine for for the existing workforce but would you agree at the moment many of the policies are focused on younger people and new entrants as opposed to more mature workers who need the upskilling certainly that I guess there's a more of a drive towards I guess young people are more interested in in in that green decarbonisation space so there has been a more interest more focus on apprenticeships for young young folk foundation apprenticeships and modern apprenticeships but the opportunities are now there you know the policy changed so that the opportunity there for existing workers to do apprenticeships as well but yeah I probably would agree there's a bit more focus on getting new entrants into the into the sectors Cliff gonna tell you you were you were very eloquent in your chatting about how how upskilling and so on was happening within Grangemouth but would you agree with what's been said about you know many of the policies are geared towards younger people rather than existing workforce more mature workers you know I think you know this at Grangemouth right and I'll speak to Grangemouth right because we've all these problems have always been here for us right in terms of skill and talent and because like I say people can work anywhere on the planet right I mean I could be in a rack tomorrow if I want to you know my next door mayor I was telling everyone just before we come in my next door neighbor works in a rack right I mean I could lift the phone to BP I've got plenty of contacts could go and be there month on month off in a rack tomorrow right a high level of transferability very highly skilled workforce I'm not just this isn't about Cliff bone being highly skilled right I mean the whole workforce right they could move no problem and we've over the years it was kind of recognised that we needed a bit more more probably more mature workers in if you like you know so we do at Grangemouth we do conversion courses and maybe this is somewhere you know I was going to touch on this at some point today anyway maybe the you know so we'll take you know like say for instance so my son's my friend's son at a minute he's just got a job in the refinery so he went and did a conversion course he'll do this conversion course he went for the interviews and he was a he was a fitter mate on site right so he understood about the permit conditions he understands about control the work he understands about working on a refinery right he's maybe not got all the academic qualifications on that but what we've seen is they're you know he has a certain skill set there that is actually pretty transferable so we'll go in we'll take these workers of that ilk and that skill set and we'll put them in a conversion course that says right do we want this guy or this guy to be a fitter or a process technician and this is what we'll do and so we've been doing that for a long time there like a and you tend to get more mature people going for these kind of roles in that way in that way I think I think it's difficult you know like I said at the start if you're asking me about mature workers the kind of elder workers within society it's hard to change and you know everybody likes what they do you know you're in this niche and it's like you're just comfortable in what you're doing it's what this example I gave earlier about upskilling and all that stuff but people do do it and we do offer that you know in terms of policy I'm not sure what you could do in terms of policy but certainly we could with investment through the college and if we wanted to open that up you know into into like the green skills you know what I mean so if you tell me like you know SSE for example if they need excellent operators there because people are crying out for this stuff right you know people are people I talked about talk about and people I represent and if I'm up and down the country you know at our executive council meetings and stuff like that people are looking for another 20 years employment right because they've got kids to feed and they've got kids to go to university and mortgages to pay and stuff it's real life this stuff so people are saying oh this is the new this is the new oil and gas right well how do I get to that well you can come into a conversion course or you can or or or but people just need to understand what that is and if we can get into the schools and if we can get into workplaces and you've got the examples there about the you know the pipe fitters mates and all that do you know what can we do for these people because they are highly skilled right just because you're a mate doesn't mean you've got a good a good skill set and actually they're the best place people would probably do these conversion courses like my friend son there because he's now he's now going to become a fully fledged operator within the refinery just that I think lessons that we've learned for the past even going back to the BP days is in how high you set the bar employers at times 10 they set the bar quite high so if you want to be a a process operator you need a master's degree on you know something that's there and it just excludes a whole raft of people that don't have that sort of academic qualification but actually they're very very capable of doing the job that you want to do so sometimes you need to lower the bar a bit in terms of you know the academic qualifications that you need they'll attract more people and matured people who maybe doesn't have the qualifications to step into that that type of an upskill and through the conversion courses I think there's a big problem in terms of there's a lot of languages can use those news about the guys in the men has male dominated at the sector so how do we get more women picking up these sort of positions that's there and get them involved there within the sector you know did he see a future within that sector that's there for them because we do have a distinct lack of women taking up these type of positions and it's how we diversify and bring their women through sorry just on this with the STEM stuff we're in the schools in the local schools talking and really you can imagine right that grains with energy network the thing I spoke about earlier on with all these young engineers and technicians you know we're in there and we're trying to encourage more diversity within the workforce of the UK because you get a more balanced view I guess and the science tells you you know you have all these different different people within a team I guess you know I mean you get different views on problem solving and stuff like that and certainly around about the STEM stuff and I know that my son certainly had it within the school from from these young engineers and they come in and they're showing you experiments in the class and you know they're really creating a spark for working class kids that are in these schools in that like a but we we always try and get young females to come into the workplace like a because as Pat says the other we'll have things like you know we have a subsector conferences and we're having a women's conference and stuff like that it's like trying to bring young girls in at a long foot and you can't even get people like in through the door never mind to get them to be reps right I mean that's a that's an uphill struggle like any never mind the male or female or whoever but certainly we do work on that like a like so with the STEM stuff like especially try to create that spark I guess for these working class kids Gordon I think you wanted to come in current policy is focused towards young people and I think we need to think more about those more mature workers and particularly those that have kind of missed the opportunities when they were we're younger the good default position is it's the employers that should train them that doesn't always happen as we've heard this morning and a reference I mentioned that earlier there is a work stand within the end set the economic transformation plan which is looking at a kind of lifetime skills offered but we'll get some further information from government colleagues and I'll pass that with you thank you don't give anything you want to add to that well as Gordon has recognised this we have got this sort of gap here for the older guys it's more I would say it again it's more of a funding what we what the guys need because a lot of it is on site learning and then it's getting instructors in to actually sign off books etc for these guys moving forward and in regards of females with any engineering and construction we do have them but again coming for the industry myself and the amount of time I spent away from home on short term contacts I'm not being sexist in any way loving in questionable digs etc when you could and whatever ended up to in a caravan and whatever so I had somewhere decent to go is it any wonder females wouldn't want to come in here this side of Grangemouth refinery working in there I get that the operators are home every night etc but realistically speaking while the engineering construction industry is setting short term works you will not get many females coming in here or they will come in and leave I think points have been well made I'd like to move on to a another area about SMEs in last week's evidence session the committee heard that there was a lack of systematic engagement with SMEs on planning for transition now obviously in the Grangemouth area there must be a huge number of SMEs that are feeding off the the Grangemouth complex because SMEs by virtue of their size virtually have a difficulty in giving time and investing into the process that could limit their ability to engage with the transition do you think there's any effective models of engagement that could address these constraints and enable it a better or greater participation because their participation is going to be absolutely vital in this maybe partner maybe I can ask you to kick off again it's a good question that I think for focusing on Grangemouth as the committee has there's maybe an opportunity to address that issue because of the green freeport situation it's been announced as a green freeport and what we would probably would like to see is potentially a sort of tripartite meetings then taking place where you've got government involvement the industries that's involved within the green port including the SMEs and the trade unions where you can get a tripartite meeting set up to you but how do we make the green port a place where you know you've got further future investment for us we have a trade union perspective how do we protect the workforce within that green freeport where there's no other driving doing our terms and conditions and you know collective bargaining and it just doesn't become a tax haven for corporate companies so you could create a platform through the green freeport in Grangemouth to create that tripartite and that tripartite could address the issues that you're speaking of for the SMEs that you know you're getting into all the the different you know transition there's a whole host of stuff you can speak about within the freeport area and just transitioning to Grangemouth will be a big one because of the nature of the Forth Valley. Dominic, do you have a view? I would say part's covered out there. Gordon? It's a big question. I think I would make the distinction between the SMEs that are part that have skin in the game in terms of being part of that industrial cluster and I think the Grangemouth future industry board that will be something that they will need to have consideration of for doing some work with the Scottish Enterprise just now who have an SME or a supply chain development programme for green energy so you'd expect some of that activity to be within the Grangemouth area. I think there's probably a wider issue about the wider community which is both businesses and individuals where there's a communication exercise to be undertaken about what the future is going to be that will play into the school system and I guess give some people some reassurance so I'd make a distinction between those that have got a stake in the game in terms of the future of the plant and the wider business community and we shouldn't forget about them. SMEs are very varied in terms of size. They can be from a few people up to 30, 40, 50 but they do employ the vast majority of people in Scotland in actual fact. Last figure I saw for the whole of Scotland that it may be dated now was 75% of workers were with SMEs and I don't doubt that it'll be reflected in the Grangemouth area but the problem is because of their size if you're a small businessman how do you squeeze out the time from trying to run your business in order to engage with planning for the transition which is absolutely essential that the part of and also the costs involved round it it's quite a difficult one. I think it is but I think like I said earlier on I think you talk about transferability within our sector and I think a lot of these SMEs and it's just been alluded to there they just you know they'll just changed you know I don't think you know if it's going to be hydrogen or other people are still going to need you know they're not going to need pumps you know they're going to need mobile compressors they're going to need deliveries of x y and z all the stuff that's been you know whether it's PPE whether it's some of the some of the SMEs that provide that for the site you know and all these subcontractors whether it's you know whether it's quotins whether it's paints whether it's all that stuff the industry just evolves you know and I think obviously they'll need some support they'll need some information but a lot of that's going to come as soon as the the gun gets fired on look we're going to go for this you know here's the infrastructure you know a government have said this is the plan then you'll get you know you'll get like the annual policies that will say right that here's the 1.2 billion for the plant this is what we need this is what we need that'll change up the stuff we need in terms of safety this is the quotins that we'll need for the pipeline this will be an industry just evolves around about that you know and now there may be investment there may be training and about that okay but these businesses will have those plans at the moment and you best people leaving these conversations will be happening at the moment because I mean I have a friend who owns a higher company right across for the chemical works right and he's all over this stuff do you know he'll be saying to me do you know like what do you need in terms is it still mobile compression is it what is it do you know that he's still going to need lighting towers it's all that stuff and the truth of the matter will be the answer will be yes because as I said to you these plants although it'll be a different technology and it'll be different stuff you're making it'll still be pumps it'll still be compressors it'll still be passive protection that you'll need it'll still be you know fabric maintenance and all that kind of stuff so although you're absolutely right you know the impact that it'll have and it is twofold you know like say for all the other businesses around about it but communities that you know and I see this you know because I represent all the refineries and all the big chemical plants throughout the land business just adapts to this stuff you know they're just and this is a good news story for them you know it's like there is investment there is a future right i'm going to build that new office or i'm going to build x y or z or i'm going to take on more apprentices or or or or or I think once we get some clear policy in terms of where we're going infrastructure wise and stuff and is it hydrogen and we're going to get project acorn everybody tells us we are but you know we need to know we are you know and I think for the grades of sight and for the area once we get that hydrogen plant built you know I think people are just evolving about that yeah Rory just finally do you see a role for SDS there yeah certainly so just on the on the SME side of things we work quite closely through the skills groups and SMEs do give up the time to come along to those to those groups to voice where their skills gaps are particular notes around companies like Celtic renewables who take the whiskey waste and turn that into a biodiesel again different stage because they've now reached that manufacturing stage but earlier companies like my algae who are taking algae waste and using that as a biofuel as well these see the need to you know obviously pick up those workers the challenge for them is holding on to them so once they've invested in skills and training you know do they disappear to aninos or further north to Aberdeen and so that's why they see the need to to invest because they need they need those skills but there is a there is a voice I do take not not all SMEs will will will voice the concerns but certainly we've we've definitely helped on that front yeah so that's okay thank you okay thank you Michelle Thompson followed by Gordon MacDonald thank you and of course there's a rule in these committees the longer it takes for you to ask a question the higher the probability it's already been asked so I'm just going to pick up on a couple of things first of all Gordon it was you yourself that made the point about the local community and also obviously both Cliff and Pat will be across this as well there are still pockets of the local community particularly in Grangemouth who feel that they there's some of the good work that's going on even going back to BT days to be honest never mind any of us despite all the work that any of us have done in the community I would say feel as though that they've been kind of left behind so I suppose a question is and I'm aware I should say as well the very good work that goes on in a number of parties to try and pull us together but despite that where are the gaps you can see that should be plugged to make sure that the local community of Grangemouth can share in the bright vision that you in particular Cliff have set out going forward as part of a just transition so probably if the three of you could give some thoughts about that community within the Grangemouth area you can reflect back a bit but I'm long enough in the tooth the you know Grangemouth resident to remember back to when we had social clubs and you know the BP social club we had the ICI social club we had the docker's club we had snooker teams we had darts teams we had all these kind of social interaction where big employers within the area actually engaged within the communities and gave something back to the communities who put up a lot over the years as you were saying my reflex that's going off in Grangemouth but you see less and less that we don't have a BP club anywhere we don't have an ICI or an ICI club and all these things are disappearing and it was a good way for employers to actually reach out to communities and make the communities feel part and parcel and get some reward if you like for for being on the doorstep so big plants like any of us so I think work needs to be done in that sense about how do you reach out to the communities you know I think you could have like tune hall meetings you know you could organise tune hall meetings in Grangemouth to say that we're going to have a tune hall meeting discuss just transition you can have a panel sitting on that maybe we'd be more than happy she or cliff and I'd be more than happy sit on that panel you could have somebody if any of us you could have you know local councillors but ever sit on the panel and have sort of the regular type conversations that engages the community across there to say well here's where we are and this is what hydrogen is I think if you spoke to people and talked to them about hydrogen they'll just go need disrespect but it'll go because if you say blue hydrogen you say pink hydrogen you know the wonder what the hell you're talking about but and I think the Grangemouth community would welcome it I'm pretty sure that they would welcome that type of dialogue and welcome that kind of conversation and I'll let you bring the community along with you so it's a no brainer I think for employers sitting there and look I think as with everything right I think probably any else has accompanied or shelled herself in this space do you know Pat and I were reflecting on the way through you know so what we did what we do at Grangemouth for example I'll give you a couple of examples one is you know a number of years ago during Covid actually like a week we get like a kind of Christmas payment like for a walk out of a curry and a couple of beers right Christmas night out type of thing 25 pound ahead I'm not getting much of a curry nowadays right now but anyway it's still 25 pounds right that you could put towards it right and it's appreciated for the company right but what we did was we as a collective workers there we said right look why do we know donate this to charity right because what difference is 25 we're well paid in the industry right what difference is 25 pound mean to make to us and as I say I was being flippant there but you'll not get much for 25 quite the end if you're going for a curry and that right so what we did was we we clubbed all that together and there's a kind of core wee group there and what we do is we give we give we donated our bonus and it was matched by the company right the company put this money in and we donated it to the local there's a local charity the kerstry bank project in Grangemouth right right so and we get it here you know and one of the lines I got through one of the girls at work there is some of these working-class kids he's underprivileged kids in Grangemouth there's a hundred of them and I says hundreds a pretty robust number why is it a hundred and she says well we need to stop counting a hundred because we can't help everybody right there's not so much we can do she's some of these kids almost even get Christmas chicken at dinner time on Christmas day like a never made a chicken dinner and that resonated was right so we we donate this this Christmas bonus to here and I was matched that right so they end up getting like some like 12 granders and I think we gave them this year you know I'm out and and I said to my boss I was like we should really get this out in the press you know and it's not about it's not about us it's not about the bonus it's not really about any loss I guess it's about waking people up to the fact that within their communities and grade was I wouldn't say it's over affluent but you know people are well played you know we have we have the green amber and red you know within the within the school asset and one of the local school school board I couldn't believe it when I had but we heard the you know the three pockets of different levels of affluence I guess or poverty whatever way you want to look at it and we donate it to these kids like a and it's about letting people within that community know that there are people struggling within your communities right so we do that and we go over and now and this is the first year we've probably advertised it better than other do you know it was in the daily record it was in the folk of herald it was on twitter and stuff like that so there is stuff that we also have a thing where you can go employees can come do you know if they do like I'm a bb officer I must spare time you know like so you can apply for a wee grant financials that says like look could you get us fit more strips and stuff like that like that so there is stuff like that that goes on just everybody's busy right you know and and we have a committee that looks at that stuff so any employee I sit in the committee right along with management and we say right so you would come along and say look I'm in the the girl guides or or I do a kayaking club or a mountain biking club it's amazing what people get up to in their spare time right you'll learn about people right but loads of people are doing fantastic stuff within the community right and we'll go along we'll get them cash and we'll try and match it you know you also have the the facility at Little Carsh where all the football teams are there I mean that's all BP oh I'm going back there like it's any loss but it was BP on but it's any loss on now and that's been leased to the the guy who runs that place that facility guy Stevie Barrow is a local businessman who does loads of great work in the community fantastic work he gave me a free pitch for the boys we gave last week actually like so we could take all these working class kids probably did I get to play football and we go along and we get up for nothing and stuff but he gets to rent that I'm not going to go into the details of that but it's a reduced rate that anyone's given them that like so there's a lot of stuff that goes on listen the world has changed right you've not got social clubs anymore no and I'm like Pat we used to have the BP gallery do you know all that kind of stuff you'd the eyesight club I grew up in these places like there was bowling teams there was hockey teams all that kind of stuff and the world has changed you know four dozen more that kind of stuff the world has moved on but lots of stuff there as Pat says could we do more could anybody do more I probably suggest we probably could but we're certainly on that journey no we are doing stuff we probably didn't sell it as well like a benefits of the just transition you know whatever it that will just enable us to be there longer you know and it's probably you know I know that certainly my CEO at FPS he's offered you know like so things like if schools are struggling you know like in terms of if it's a heating's breaking down or stuff like can we use our contract partners at Grangemouth to go out and go and help we've certainly done stuff with the Kersey bank we're getting them moved at the moment we're moving them through the Poundshratures place in Grangemouth we're moving to Charlotte and Das so we're doing all the work in the background with the councils because actually these people are volunteers it's a charity what do they know about buildings and what do they know about building regs and all that stuff because actually what we did was we're going to we're giving them a lot of money right it's a lot of cash I think it's probably about £40,000 because what what they said to us was there's working class mothers in this area that didn't know how to boil an egg to feed their kids which is incredible right they don't know how to cook they kind of cook beans and I'm saying beans and they're like no I'm telling you right this is the truth this is the this is where we live this is in your town right so I went to my CEO and I says look there must be something we can do here right so what so what we've done is we're helping them to move to the facility at Charlotte and Das we're going to put a kitchen in in pound stretchers and we're going to have the the chef it's Aramac and that within the Grangemouth site they were going to go down and give lessons but we're moving up the Charlotte and Das now and we're going to do that we're going to invite all these working class mothers in to come in they're going to we're going to furnish it out you know the CBRE and that they're going to come in and they're going to do all the work fit it out and they also are going to obviously pay for that they'll use the contracts as fit this place out they'll have the chef going down to help these working class mothers to boil an egg can you imagine right but this is what we're having to do in the community that we'll have in and they're doing all that stuff big cash you know tens of thousands of pounds here right people and that's out with the people who work for the business people are doing this in the in the general on business time as well as the day job it's like we've taken people for the finance team say look can you go and work with this charity in the locale and go and help this and then get it up and running get it on its two feet and then what a legacy that is so there is loads of stuff going on could we do more everybody could always do more I guess for the local communities but we are there and we are responsible and doing loads of stuff would you underprivilege kids in that area so well thank you for that Ronnie I wanted to make up new it came up earlier about from a skills perspective again I know there's a lot of work going on to make sure that girls in particular can participate because you know just transition surely part of it has to be that over half of the population actually has some skin in the game part that can you give us a kind of latest position in terms of your active development to ensure that women and girls are at the just transition party well specifically for for Grangemouth so SDS again co-chair the skills work stream with fuel change and fuel change have some great initiatives around the region in terms of taking apprenticeships and exist on the existing workforce on a on a challenge journey related to a to a green green initiative and again many of that involves females to get them sorry to to raise awareness of the jobs and the types of jobs that are available but also the challenges that are facing in terms of that just transition other initiatives like DYW will take take females through that sort of stem getting females into stem we have the women returners program as well specifically around around that those areas and then more generically there is the green jobs workforce academy again around the careers that are on offer again seems to be more more interest from the from the female side in terms of those those types of roles you know perceptions are of the chemical industry in terms of being a dirty industry with the stacks and around Ineos and and now it's changing the perceptions into a greener cleaner sort of jobs and I think that'll attract more females into the industry as well what I hear you describing is are some good initiatives are underway but what I'm less clear is to what extent ensuring women and girls are at the heart of a just transition from now as a fundamental policy of sds which is slightly different to good stuff going on so is it absolutely at the heart of the scoop pick up on the policies I've gotten I think we will work with government there's a draft energy strategy in just transition plan that's for consultation just now we're actively engaged in that dialogue I think we need to go beyond the activities to actually start measuring real numbers in terms of the good impacts that we we make there's still that gender bias in terms of where people will go but it's a bit like Cliff was touching on earlier the guidance teachers and their guiding staff understanding the options and choices that young people should be making to actually help them in that in that path and I think we've still got more work to do in that in that area okay thank you Gordon MacDonald do you wish to come in with questions just a couple of questions it's been a really interesting conversation unfortunately most of the questions I was going to ask have been covered but I've got two very quick questions one for sds most people's perception of green jobs is about renewable energy, electrical transport or energy efficiency and we had a submission from select that said that in 2022-23 saw the largest of our number of apprentices and adult trainees recruited into our industry however the number of available places funded by sds falls short of our needs can you give us a background to that is it a capacity issue is that funding issue you know what is what's driving that I'm earlier funding issue the introduction of the apprenticeship levy in which is applied to private public and and voluntary sector has created a significant demand so places like Glasgow health board for example will pay six million pounds in their apprenticeship levy in a year police scotland fire service will all be paying into the levy so rightly they look to see if they can take a share of that back we are probably facing the situation over the next two years which we've articulated to government and it's an impact from Covid and some of the qualification framework slowing down where less people were qualified with a bit of a spike around things like construction and engineering which were disrupted the most and in terms of apprenticeship our contingent liability because we'll get 36,000, 38,000 in training just now so whilst we'll get 25,000 stats just still getting this flow of people through so we're going to face a bit of a tsunami in terms of the financial cost of that suppressed activity through through Covid and that's what we'll need to face over the next two years so we're probably whilst pre Covid we're at 30,000 we're heading towards 30,000 stats we're probably going to be at 25, 25 and a half and there is an increased demand coming through particularly in areas like aerospace, defence, marine we're going for a meeting with government and we met with Mr Hepburn last week so a lot of engineering companies I want to bounce back the electricians in particular are unique because they are in a closed shop for them at a better term they certify their own people so they've got a great handle on the number of people who are active in the labour market at any time and they can see the numbers retiring and they can see the numbers for emigrating so I think that to be congratulated in terms of that industry demand coming forward but I think we will have a shortfall and available funds to support not just them but a number of other employers at this time and we're working with the government colleagues to try and address those issues. Okay thanks very much for that and my last questions to Dominic, on your submission your very last paragraph said the fourth report will not result in improved economic benefits for the current workforce or future workforce at Grangemouth can you elaborate on that? Unless things change, what would you expect to change? Well again we're needing massive investment to bring not only young apprentices to but also adults through as well. It's very clear we're sitting in the worst skill shortage in 40 years. People are going in at this moment in time there's contractors leaving Grangemouth on a daily basis. I'm actually going to meet one of one of Scotch's colleagues in a minute and at Torr Nesham I go down there and what we'll be doing is starting to plan and balloting the contractors at Grangemouth are finer and so every week obviously I've got to have records of what I'm going to intend to balloting and the amount of guys that are leaving there they're now and are leaving in vast swathes because they're going to other places again to get better money and what they're on at this moment in time. So unless things change to keep these guys here it's just going to be problematic all the way through. As we said earlier, just transition's got to be what it says, a just transition where everybody moves on. Both unions have been hearing this phrase for years and years, onshore and offshore and whatever and nothing's changed. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you. Graham Simpson Jewish to ask a few questions. Yeah, I think it's been a fascinating session. I've enjoyed all your contributions but I've got to pick you out Cliff because I think you've been a fantastic advert for your employer actually. I know you're not here to represent them but they've not yet agreed to come before the committee. You've painted them in a really good light. I think that they've got absolutely nothing to worry about by coming here. You've painted a very good picture. We are going to visit them so if you find out the date it would be good to see you on that visit. You've all mentioned particularly the union guys this need for investment in infrastructure and it struck me that when governments introduced policy, industry leads so you know government can do things and then the investment will follow so I'm just wondering if you've got any ideas any thoughts on on what actually needs to happen to persuade likes of any of us to to invest more in hydrogen. I think it's about you know public transport, you know hydrogen fuel-sailed bus buses and you know and whether we do aviation and all that stuff you know is the appetite there to go after this stuff because if it is the appetite will certainly be there to invest and to get involved in that stuff you know particularly around about your public transport and stuff like that and we all know the benefits you know we've seen the studies you know we've had a look at the studies ourselves you know and you say I've been a great advert for the employer but I'm actually it's a great advert for Grangewood you know with this stuff like I said to you I mean you know if there was an issue here like you would know right because I'm as honest as the days long I've tell you there's a there's a there would be any disparity in terms of where we're trying to go like a but it is really a joined up approach like I said you know and I just want to keep Grangewood open and clearly you know there's a portfolio and I want Grangewood to be open you know I want all these benefits like I said to you I would rip your arms off when I was leaving school I think I wanted to play with the armoured as well like a I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do like a but 30 years worth of being down there and the benefits that I've enjoyed it there and the benefits I've seen for the local community as well and if we can do that you know for my kids for my next door neighbours kids whoever you know that's why I'm here to promote Grangewood like a because as I say we recognise the need to decarbonise a nobody has to tell us a we're on it and we're doing it but in terms of policy it is round about that stuff you know it is about you know is it busses is it busses so what does that look like how many buses is it like how many routes are we talking about like a we're going to increase them into buses are we going to decrease them into trains what does all that look like and let's have a let's have a real vision of what the future for Scotland transport network looks like and UK right but we're talking about Grangemouth today right what does it look like is it more buses is it less buses is it more trains what does that look like you know is it going to be you know it will be going to increase the look at the success of bus lanes have been you know for taxis and for buses and stuff like that you know my sister uses a bus now to come into Edinburgh like and we do like she's younger than me and we do laugh like a because I remember my granny getting the bus to Edinburgh right but she says cliff is brilliant you know I go in the bus you know there's wi-fi you know you can kick back you don't have to worry you're not stuck in traffic you know so if that is the future what does that look like so that so that industry can then model you know whether it's an SME and it's a great point about the minute because I think sometimes we forget about the SMEs but the stats that we had earlier on like that we all know what they look like you know and if that is going to be the way that we're going ahead just let us know but let's get on with it I guess is the you know fair point of view because I think you've heard that a number of times like a let's say it's like we've been talking about this for a long time like a but industry's keen now just to get on with this stuff and as representatives of the workers who work for industry we're keen to see that joined up approach as well. It goes back to the procurement process again you know it's a bit like the the field of dreams you know build it and they will come and if you've got procurement processes that's saying that you know this is going to generate work and that work needs to be here industry will develop itself to make sure it's in a place to to one new type of contracts and be there procurement's got a big role to play in this whole just transition process. Yeah but is it not about I mean Cliff you you you speak a bit of the situation in Germany where they're putting in hydrogen filling stations should we call them that so if you were to do that here here in Scotland or throughout the UK that that creates a market doesn't it but it's what what comes first and I guess that that needs to be the the conversations that you have with I guess with the owner like a you know and like I say they're there I mean Richard's guy in Britain you've heard all the rhetoric around the world like a but certainly big on UK manufacturing big on investing in the UK and like I said to you these companies can go anywhere and they are you know massive deals in the UK the US last last month massive deals in China but they are big on UK and they're big on the future of Grangemouth like a so you know if we can have that conversation at that level within the company that says right look what does this look like because they're certainly having it at the UK level you know and this is where Miliband's engaging now you know and we can see where things are seem to be shifting on the political landscape you know and Labour are really in listening mode in terms of that so what does that look like but look I'm not here it's not here about Labour SNP Conservatives it's not about that this is about Grangemouth today and for me it's about the future of this country's energy network it's about the future of decarbonising Grangemouth because I've got two kids right and I didn't want them to be living a planet that's uninhabitable do you know what I mean like that but we're still going to need energy and you know this is about just transition it needs to be just but it needs to be done the right way measured way and as Pat says you know it really is about and it's an interesting question right right I guess it's like this for anything right it's about electrification right it's like you know we've got to have electric cars you know that well what happens if you stay in a high-rise flat in the middle of Flamingoven right I mean you know I mean me and my wife laugh about this right because I can't plug my phone in in my house to charge it right right for three minutes right I turn my back and my kids have stole the charger right can you imagine what it's like if you go four or five cars to it like fight for the one thing you go to your work in the morning it's flat right but what do you do if you're like a working-class family in a high-rise flat and there's from six or seventy in there like a how are we going to do that right so I think certainly in terms of that whole dynamic about what is it we need to do we need to get sit down and have a serious conversation that says right look these are the plans what can you do for us like it and in it they'll be all over that and I'll say because they are just waiting and that's at a UK and the Scottish level let's say look this is what it looks like right we'll fill that gap we can fill that market because the investment is there like I say £1.2 billion for that hydrogen plant I mean that's massive investment that's bigger than any other for senior grade with it yeah there is another factor to grade with it but we've no spoke about at all in here and it's petrol china and petrol china's involvement in the refinery itself is 51% yet and so whilst we speak about any else petrol china is a big investor within grangemouth and it's about what is the plans of petrol china going forward and it's sort of short medium and long term I don't believe petrol china is going to go anywhere in the foreseeable future because of the price of oil and the refinery is making shed loads of money right now as you know the oil and gas sector is but it's once you get beyond that and things that to settled in you know where does petrol china go and I think that's just something that you need to speak to within any else and within petrol china to make sure that petrol china is in the same wavelength as any else is in moving the site forward and I think you know there's a question about free ports earlier on through one of your colleagues and I think iron it you know there is listen there's concerns about free ports because we've seen them before right we understand what the pitfalls can be for workers rights and stuff like that we get it you know but in conjunction with a lot your colleagues you know like we've done a lot of work on this we miss our maths and I like and we've had all these discussions and more varied our concerns on on free ports on the green port but actually ironically I think it could be good for the refinery you know at grangemouth you know it's probably going to extend its life cycle a bit because they're like just in terms of tax breaks and how we can work all that kind of stuff and we'll see where that goes like a but that's not to say you know we're sitting here like you know naive to the the pitfalls of the free port issue like a but but that's absolutely right you know there was I've never seen margins like it in 31 years the money that refineries are making is incredible at the minute but you better believe in every refinery in this country there is chat now about hydrogen because everybody sees you know that clearly refining as it is has now got a future right but it has under clean cleaner fuels right and if that's going to be hydrogen and carbon based and you look carbon captured based and we're seeing that right across every every piece of investment that's going in whether it's sr at stanlow or whether it's doing folly tens in millions hundreds in millions of pounds being invested in cleaner fuels and decarbonisation and stuff like that so that's all happening and it's all around the bit free port areas that are coming like this so yeah that's fine thank you that brings us to the end of this morning's evidence session thank you very much for panelists for sharing your views this morning I think it's been mentioned we will be visiting the grange mouse that's due to be on the 20th of march so we'll be doing the committee will take a visit and if there is evidence that you've not been able to provide this morning please do feel free to provide written evidence to the inquiry as we move through the next few weeks. Mr Bowen, did you want? Just getting my pay. Oh right sorry I thought you had more to contribute there but that's so I'll just briefly suspend the meeting to allow the witnesses to leave thank you which is consideration of an SSI and the committee has invited to note the diligence against earnings variation Scotland regulations 2023. The purpose of this instrument is to update the figures contained in part 3 of the debtors Scotland act 1987 relating to how much money an individual is allowed to keep before any payment can be taken from wages to recover debts and then sets the scale of what payments can be taken above that level so these regulations increase protection for those in debt because it raises the threshold beneath which reductions may not be taken from earnings by arrestment. While members are being invited to note the instrument this morning they will be aware that we've received some representation so I am minded to perhaps write to the government requesting if they have any future plans recognising the current economic situation that's faced by many we do recognise that the instrument this morning does ease that situation does change some of the thresholds but we have had representation that perhaps more could be done in future years and if members are happy I'll write to the government I'd also note that the social justice and social security committee recently carried out an inquiry into these matters as well so that it's something the government is aware of the parliament has an interest in so if members are content to note and agree that a letter will be sent along those lines thank you I will now that concludes the public part of the meeting and we'll move into private session