 Good morning, Gil. So yes, the financialization of everything. Yes, indeed. John's and I've been talking about that a lot. Yeah, it's, and it's so hard to see a way out. Once you're into it as deeply as we are. Yeah. Well, that's why I'm loving Graeber. Yeah, the book is wonderful. The book is wonderful at so many levels. And I saw one review before I started reading it that likened it to Darwin and Galileo. Yeah. And it's in its import and significance. I think it's that might not be an overreach. I mean, it's not written as tightly as Darwin. Well, it's, you know, years, but, but the, the, the sense of possibility that it opens, you know, to exactly the stuckness you're talking about, we're talking about the Graeber when grow book the dawn of everything. Because for me by, by presenting the enormous variety of human experience. And in and out an experimentation over, you know, tens of thousands of years it says to me, there's not just one way to be for two ways to be what you see me we seem to be stuck in this world. And that suggests, well, you know, we may not see the path, but we can start to see the possibility. Right, it certainly unfreezes the kind of lockstep logic that we've lived in. And that's a tremendous gift and the view that we think that the world went from simple hunter gatherers to complex societies. No, it's the other way around the hunter gatherers had a much more complicated life than we have. And we have locked ourselves into a rigid structure that prevents freedom and quality of life. Well that was a really happy place to drop into a conversation. Well time sir. Well, yeah, yeah. That's everything. Every time about the Graeber book. Yeah, exactly. Everything is done. And then the Graeber book but it's the Graeber when grow book. Yeah, we got to give the other David some credit here because this came out of their 10 years of conversation. And he's still alive and he's really smart. And so, and they had two other books planned so we'll see what when grow does with all that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And in case nobody started it. I read against the green a couple years ago by James Scott, who's still alive and in New York. I'm like, really want to meet him I kind of want to interview him and talk about these things because he convinced me of this thesis back then. And, and Scott in his introduction explains that he's not an expert in any one of these things but he took 10 years to write this book. And in the meantime, gave speeches went and talked to the anthropologists and the sociologists and the paleontologists and everybody else. And sort of vetted the thesis so that's really super interesting. Jerry you know if Scott has reviewed this book yet. I'm sure he's I don't know that he's written a review he was quoted in one of the reviews I just read, which made me very happy. And I think that he's in the bibliography of the book but I'm not sure. Well probably everybody is. That's true that's true it's a monster work. I'm working from home treat today just was lucky to find my way. Yeah, yeah. There's kind of a bunch of og me things to check in about and Pete I don't know if you'd like to have a go at talking a bit about some of the stuff you've done because I think it would be really nice for everybody here and then I can talk a little bit about leaving the room and sort of status on that and I can also report it on the story threading I did last week which might be interesting so I think there's a bunch of things we might hog the start of the call with for a sec. Just to just I think it's also kind of a good update for GM. As we go. So do you want to kick us kick us off. Good call. I would love that thanks. Yay. Eric said something interesting at the in the chat at the end of the last call, how do we, you know, how do we harvest this and collect it and so I took that as a challenge. And I said it would take many hours to do, and I foolishly thought it wouldn't take many hours to do afterwards, and it took many hours to do, but there you go. So any fun and challenging tough turns into right. So I was, I was really excited and happy with the way it came out so. Let me tell you a little bit about the status of it. What I did was work to capture a bunch of the last call. And I did capture a bunch of the content of the last call. I didn't complete that effort, even after six hours. The main thing I was working on was figuring out that how I would capture it. So that was ended up being very successful. I'll drop a link to this in the chat maybe I'll just do that right now so that you can play along at home a little bit. I'll put that in the Mademois chat later. So, one of the, one of the things I did was one of the problems I've had doing this before is that, well, it'd be nice if the call fed into this larger knowledge base of everything ever right. So that has always been kind of an intimidating prospect. What I did this time is like, how about if I make a what I called a hypertext knowledge workbook of just this call, and the topics there in right. So that's what I did. This one you're looking at a regular website. And this is not the best way to look at the thing that I've got this hypertext workbook. I'm going to switch over to something that's maybe a little bit less familiar, but a little bit more powerful and this is obsidian. So this page here is also this page here in my obsidian on my computer. If you, if you down here, there's a link to a zip file, you can, you can download all these files as a zip, and they're just plain text files. They're in Markdown. But Markdown, let me switch this real quick. Markdown looks a lot like text with a few extra things like the way you do links and stuff like that. But mostly it's just text. So don't, don't find that intimidating. I really, really was love as many people as can to download the zip file and just unzip it and poke through it. So what I did is I ended up deciding that these kind of calls get arranged into maybe I'll go to the homepage here. The homepage on, on this thing is always called read me. And it's the same as this. So these buttons up here help you navigate through to it's the same as these, these things here. Here are all your smiling wonderful faces. Each of these pages is not very well filled in because I didn't get to that. So there are a few pages that say this page needs more text. And later they'll accumulate more text. I did fill in mine because I happen to have this boilerplate elsewhere and other wikis. So I just grabbed it and copied it over. But the interesting thing is these calls come in books and organizations and people and resources and topics. And when I kind of got that organizational structure that there's not too many things and that you can always find the right place to put something. It made things a lot easier for me. So the books, most of the books we talked about last time are these computer lab dream machines, possible x glass be game great transformation. A lot of these are kind of the same things that we we've talked about over and over right so here's the Donna everything. This is a pretty good example of something that got filled in a little bit. So this I think is is. This is skill talking about it real quick standing and deeply important. Whenever you're compared it to Galileo and Darwin. So it was not too hard for me to find that and say that. Here actually, you know, this is what he said. This is another thing that I did with many of the topic and book and people pages. This is pulled straight out of Wikipedia. And here's a link to the Wikipedia page. So let me show you a couple more of those things if I go to topics. So we talked about some of these things are kind of standard stuff like great man theory or interest net or meme. And so I didn't, you know, we mentioned meme. We didn't really talk about it. This is another thing where it's got content from Wikipedia and that's all. But other things we actually had a new conversation about grace grabbed a really cool thing if you measure the feminine things you corrupt them. So I grabbed this is a copy paste from the transcript that grace grace said she attributed to Heather Heinz and Jerry and I haven't found Heather Heinz yet so we'll have to talk about that but in obsidian, I'm starting to play with these hashtags in the wiki they don't do anything in in here, they actually light up as tax and then over here, I can click on tag thing. These are all of the hashtags that I've included. This is going to turn into maybe not in this version of this workbook but it works like this in the future this will turn into kind of what we used to think of as the index in the back of a book right. So, oh wow we talked about it's an interdisciplinarity. What book is or what page is that on it's on the eight flux superpowers page. So, this is Jerry talking about the eight flux superpowers. This is a screen grab from the video when Jerry was talking about it because it's got a nice brain thing here. This text, I pulled off of this screen grab, but this text, which is kind of the same thing with a little bit of discussion by Jerry is this this all is copied out of the transcript cleaned up a little bit. So, to do all of this, and I'll kind of wrap this up pretty quick here. To do all of this, I started with the zoom chat. This is a more nicely formatted version of it thanks to Bentley Davis's tool. And I kind of went through this real fast and made a list of the topics and people and books and things like that. So, this is one of these table of contents pages. So then, another asset resource I've got is rough transcript. This is a machine that went through, you know, listen to the whole recording and typed it up for us basically. It does, you know, it does a 96% job means that there's a lot of problems with it but there's still, you know, there's still, there's still the bones of stuff here and you can skim through it and again make a list of stuff. To go back and clean up and then you can start to link things. Once you have that the backbone of the things in the call, then you can start to fill it in right so here's a link to Amy Levin's this is the Wikipedia thing. This is also Wikipedia thing I haven't done anything with nuclear energy or more. Hey, Marie. This, you know, someday I could kind of link topic nuclear energy to climate problem and climate problem responses. This again is a page where I could probably fill these in more a little bit from Wikipedia but this is something where you'll said, you know, we've got a plan for climate climate change. This is a place where it would be fun to annotate this up. So there you go. I'll post links. Please play with it please. When you download it. It's yours to keep forever is the way I think of it. You can make changes and send them back to me or you can make, you know, you can send me an email and say hey this is something you should add or please add my bio or please take me out of that I don't want to be in that list. But please play with it. And I'll keep doing, I'll keep doing this. This process, I won't necessarily do it for all of the OGM calls, but I'm happy to talk more about this process and especially teach other people how to contribute to do this by yourself and all that kind of stuff. Gil has some questions about infrastructure. I just want to add one comment or maybe two comments one. Wow, awesome. Like, like this post processing is phenomenal and like you could start to imagine lots of places it might go. Lots of ways it might weave into other sorts of things, etc, etc. So when you're creating are basically marked on files on GitHub so they're kind of openly available for for messing around with which is, you know, part of the objective here. Second thing is, so when you did a whole bunch of work here and when there's a page for Doug or Gil or Stacy in the thing you just created. So at this point, you can easily should we should be able to connect into existing pages for each of us which are managed by us in some distributed identity, you know what's our, what's our preferred profile, and then you link to that and awesome. And then somehow there's a chain of quotes that that person did in each of the different conversations that shows up as their trail thread trail thread, or something like that I don't know what that might look like but, but you just put in an enormous amount of work solo. And imagine if as a hive, we start, you know, working this together and each of us starts curating the stuff that we care about and the stuff that we're responsible for and the stuff that represents us and blah, blah, blah, blah. That gets really cool really fast. And Gil is going to ask you, which, if you're looking in the chat. Yeah, I did. Yeah, do you want to go ahead and address that and then we'll see if. Before I ask those questions. I've already asked I just want to say, thank you and deep bow of gratitude to you this is pretty awesome. And I like how you've organized and I'm curious how much time it took you because it seems this is a big lot of work after each call. It can't fall on one person. But it also can't be just idiosyncratically each of us doing it the way we want I mean it could be that but it would lose some value. Any thoughts on how this how this works going forward and then the questions in the chat. It's, I'll take that last one first. My, my wish. My wish is that during a call that we would, we would actually do the enact the process of digesting the call and making all the links that would slow the call way down. And that would mean that an hour and a half call would cover, you know, a quarter of what we covered before or a fifth or an eighth or something like that. Or the bad thing we don't know that's good or bad. I, yeah, I personally, I'm all in on that, that one. I think the, I think the process of processing what we've talked about. Even if it slows us down and we get to talk about fewer things in one call helps us go deeper and richer and get everybody on the same page better knowing more knowing, you know, there's a bunch of stuff that I learned pulling this together about Herman essay or, you know, you know, a bunch of stuff is like, Oh, wow, this is why, you know, Jerry's always talking about this book or whatever, right. So I would think that I that's my wish. I was talking with my buddy Wendy Elford about this. And, you know, I said, and I suggested that we do it this way. And, and she says, Pete, you and I both know that you and I love doing this, and probably nobody else really loves doing this. So that's not going to happen. So, another, you know, another, another fantasy or, or idea, another wish I had doing this, and I'm not. I'm going to say something about money, but, but not because I care about the money. You know, there's six hours of work here, I think it would be a little bit less we could maybe do it in four if we already had some of the material pulled together from other works that we've done before, but it's still a significant amount of work. And, and I had this image. This image of my head at the end of the call kind of like in church you pass the hat along and collect up, you know, enough money to pay one or two or four people to digest for four hours and produce an artifact. That's another way to do it. I think that that's kind of a miss balance. I don't think that's the best way to do it. I think the best way to do it is for everybody to do it together but so real quick, Otter does have a beautiful integration with zoom that lets you identify the speakers. I ended up starting with the script, which is a beautiful tool for editing transcripts at editing videos, you, it makes the transcript and then literally you edit the transcript like you're editing a text document and the video gets up and ends up getting edited for you. You don't really need to do that it turns out you don't really need to do that for this kind of call. You don't need to make a perfect transcript. And interestingly enough, it turned out that between the transcript what I ended up doing was downloading the video I've got it set up in BLC a video player, and it's really easy to switch back and forth to the right place. So I'm looking at the transcript. And then it's like, you know, somebody says something and then the name is garbled because the machine didn't understand it so I just scroll to that right place in the video and oh it's, you know, it's grace talking or it's Wendy talking or whatever. So I ended up not needing the speaker identification much in this process. A couple notes before I pass the mic to Wendy. One is that we I forgot that because on the Thursday calls we're using collective next zoom room still, which does give us an auto transcript which does contain the speakers so we actually had the active file which you might have been able to import into the script but I'm not sure, which might have given you a leg up Pete so that's kind of in the background, but also that also to note that in order to get auto integration with zoom you've got to be paying for the corporate account not the pro account which most of us who are paying zoom at all are the one you know that's what we've got so the auto integration doesn't actually come with that. And then there's a bunch of free tools that are emerging as zaps which are zoom applets that some of which just do free turn, most of which are not being charged for yet, but they will you can tell, because that's their business plan. But they're trying to track some attention that do AI note taking and a bunch of other stuff where we're thinking of playing with some of that but we don't want to get trapped in any proprietary tool which is one of the problems with the script which is it's super powerful, but it's a it's a private business that wants to wants to make a make a living doing that. But also labeling who the speakers are will probably be really useful and it's probably a feature we want to sort of turn on and off. In terms of seeing who spoke or what was said but but that metadata is actually like, I feel like, I feel like, I don't know, there's a weird thing where it wasn't important in this artifact it ended up not being important. The script for what it's worth usually does a good job of voice printing everybody. So it knows the voice prints, and you can tell it this voice print is Jerry or this voice print is Wendy and it just says Oh, all of that voice print is Wendy. On this particular recording it completely failed that didn't do that at all. So that's why I, you know, I might have ended up with speaker tags but for some reason to script failed. Real quick, I want to show another thing that I didn't show, which is a pretty graph visualization. And there's a couple things that it did to get this graph visualization. So Pete is back in obsidian and this is an obsidian plugin. It's actually one of the built in plugins. So it's a default thing there's another fancier graph visualizer which is a little bit more buggy but it does more stuff. So, so you can see because I've I've started linking things planning and plans is related to Dwight Eisenhower and Doug and the eight flux superpowers and climate problem responses and trance bell and Dave stone. And the map the way it's set up. I've also got topics in green and people in gold and books in in red there. So you can say that you can also see that life is new couple players for club pairs of positive cartography corporate longitude, etc. This one, it's interesting that this one. Sometimes when the map gets a little bit more dense you start to get connections between things that you can, you know, like second and third order relationships I don't think it's just a kind of a coincidence that that this one relates that one. The, this is a pretty good map of the interconnection of kind of the topics. I dropped out in this. A couple major stars, and I'm going to put them back in there. So you can see that the table of contents pages for topics and people and books relates to all the topics. That map is also live. So if you click on a thing, or, you know, people is related to all the people. This is cute, but it's not very useful. I guess, you know, there's a time and place for this but the way had it before where you, you don't have these major hubs, you can drop those out and see the underlying structure better. Is there a link to this map? That map is interactive and obsidian. And you can, if you're running obsidian, it's, you just turn it on basically. So otherwise, no. I'm doing more flint and rocks than obsidian. Kevin, you just muted yourself accidentally. I just said I'm doing more flint and rocks than obsidian. Thanks. And one more thing before I pass the mic to Wendy because I think when you still want to probably jump in, which is some piece of this, I don't know how much of this peak because you've gone so far further than our initial conversations. OGM has a small grant from the Jim family foundation to stand up a podcast which I'll also check in about. And part of what he's working on is we call it project crowd, which is the automation of, hey, zoom says you've got a recording ready. Now what? And there's typically every time we do a call like this, I do a bunch of a little bit of manual labor to download the call, clip it a little bit, upload the call to YouTube, post about the call on our Mattermost channel, etc, etc. Add the link to my brain. There's a bunch of sort of manual labor. And Pete is trying to automate as much of that as possible and then put that in, you know, in the world as open scripts or some open Zappier scripts or some some other kind of tool that lets you skew or sequence a bunch of activities like this so that and I'll put this in the context of the podcast so that, for example, the weaving the world podcast will have episodes and then it will have shadow episodes or we're still trying to figure out nomenclature. But the idea that we will then do a lot of post processing about the episodes so that we can go deeper and sort of ask questions and slow things down. And so the wouldn't it be great if we slowed things down and collaborated doesn't have to happen during each live call. But I'm trying to build in this podcast with sort of separate kinds of episodes is the ability to slow down the clock a little bit and focus and ask questions and curate together after each episode. And we're like launching that now. So, and I understand that I'm being automated in the chat, which is actually pretty cool. I mean, April's not worried about my getting Alzheimer's because she figures she'll just talk to my brain in the future. Andy, we may have stolen all your thunder, but did you want to jump? Did not at all. That's totally fine. My question is already been answered because I wanted to see the graphy thing. Oh, perfect. Thank you. Can tell the path sometimes. And nicely done. And Pete, if somebody is in this, if somebody is connected to that could have repo through obsidian and can see the doc, they could easily use the plugin and play with it themselves correct. And I have to, I have to say, you don't even have to use GitHub. If you go to the zip link, you click on the zip, it's downloaded as, you know, unzip it, then you've got a director you can play with. The good thing is for being interactive, pushing changes back, but you don't have to start there. You can start with a zip file and a text editor, and you still get a lot of the value the graph visualizer you'd want to boot up obsidian, which I downloaded the obsidian note taker app. Is that what I should be downloading or is it an app. It is an app. Yeah. Obsidian.md. And so what do I do when I know that I, what, how do I find what you did. You download the zip file. That's in that link somewhere. I just do it on my iPad. Is that going to work? I mean, I got a man. You know, it would kind of work. I've never used the, the obsidian mobile apps. But if you, if you download it on a desktop, and then do the synchronization, the obsidian synchronization, then you'll be able to see it on your iPad actually. I haven't played with the iPad version at all. I don't know what it's like. I know a lot of people are still on laptops. That's fine. I should totally try that. That's a good idea. I'm using it on, on laptop iPad and iPhone sync works very well. The flexibility is a little bit less on the iOS devices, probably get used to a bowl. I just find that the bigger screen and the keys helps me play on the on the laptop more. I've been working with obsidian for a few months and Pete suggestion like it a lot. My question is, if Pete, if we, if, if, if I, you're suggesting that we download the zip file for each of these calls and we have it ourselves and if we monkey with it, nobody else sees those changes. So how do we have a shared editing experience around? You, you step up to the next level where we're synchronized through kit. Okay, will you at some point show us how to do that. Yeah, be happy to. Cool. Awesome. Any other thoughts, questions about Pete, what Pete just demoed and good. I mean, this is really fun because it feels like it feels like we've been stirring the OGM pot for a long time kind of making stone soup. And I'm beginning to see like there's a, there's a rotelly noodle over there and I see some beans and a little bit of sausage and whatever and like, there's a head of a shrimp. It smells good. Pardon, and it smells good, and it smells good. Exactly, exactly. So this, this is fun because we're starting to get somewhere with with tools process and a bunch of other things and see where it goes. And Pete, thank you for for connecting those I've also logged the first URL in my brain connected to this call connected to you cropping last week's call connected to last week's call connected to my map of last week's call which is a link we could connect to your map. And, you know, and ladder rinse repeat with anybody else who wants to take a swing at mapping recording riffing on all these kinds of things I'm reminded here that maybe a year ago, Max Harper, who is a Miro programming with took one of our transcripts and Miro as a dialogue basically a long, a long rectangle that showed people as smaller rectangles inside and then showed lines, like what what path of discourse took during that one call. Really interesting visualization, one of, you know, dozens of things one might do in these ways. So with that, I'll pause on this and then go to our regular check in routine, which is, we're not we're on the Thursday calls we used to check in every call and now we're alternating so next week. We're going on the matter most chat for this call we're going to decide on a topic on a focusing question for next week, and next week we'll spend our call on one, one question. I can probably find that Miro Wendy I'll find the link and put it in the chat unless Pete meets me to it. And, and so this week we'll go back to our normal routine which is I just wander through the gallery view in zoom and ask people to step in and say what sort of things have you been working on that are kind of OGM me. And Iris, thank you for joining us. Iris and I met recently had kind of a getting to know your conversation and I won't call on you first so that you can see what the pattern is. As we as we sort of check in it's not a, it's certainly not formal it's really simple, but why don't we go. Wendy Mark Karanza Julian. Hi everyone. Let's see in the last couple weeks, I have been focusing on updating my website to be able to point people to it so that it easily communicates the initiatives that I'm working on which is primarily front end user interface design to go on top of things like what Pete just created which is why I was so interested in the visual component. So trying to figure out how to do that across other platforms as well. So the primary project. Vincent's trove and Jonathan sand seriously, and we're trying to bring off the two together to create a user interface that's on top of trove that is a map view of all the data there so that's the project we've been working on. Basically it requires massaging the data in a way that when it gets exported and then imported into Kumu it displays the way you want it to so it's a little bit of noodling at the moment. Thanks. Awesome. Thanks Wendy. Mr Karanza then Julian then Eric. Yeah I can pass today. There's lots of people here. Sounds great. Julian Eric, Kevin Jones. I have three conferences coming up in the next two weeks. And right now I'm preparing presentations for those. The main one being the ogm topic related topic would be history and actual technicalities of storing 3D models and databases and making them accessible. Do you want to say a little bit more about the 3D models or I think, you know, a couple. Okay, because the idea is you're used to history is text and pictures and art and photos of things and in my world universe view. You should be storing 3D and in fact this is what I did for Lego 25 years ago was to store 3D models of Lego bricks and sets and more than just the 3D models because those are static and we live in a world that's based on time. And so, in my view we need to be storing experiences so if you've ever played with VR, your whatever you did is different from whatever anybody else did in fact it's different from the next time you do it. So in my view, when we talk about history, all this stuff needs to be going in there not just photos of things. So the discussion at the web 3D, well the presentation at the web 3D conferences. Well okay it sounds great how do you do that and then that's that's the discussion is how do you do that. Cool. Thank you. You make me think that there ought to be a like a zoom Lego plugin that makes us all look like minifigs just. There are a lot of magically. There is. I saw one a couple years ago. So it'll make it that'll make a mini figure out of you. Yeah, and that'd be cool. Yeah, especially if you make it a requirement that everybody have a mini figure avatar instead of just the webcam. We could totally have like the Lego call. Okay, let's see if we can find that. Let's go Eric Kevin Allison. Yeah, well for my synagogue we use filters on zoom for perms so people put things on their nose and hair. That's cool. So what I want to show is a prototype that I worked all weekend on. But what I was doing was looking at one of Ted Nelson's designs. He calls it zigzag and let's just think long term if we could have a decentralized web with this type of data structure and multiple applications feeding into it so it's going to look old school but think in the future. Okay, so now let me share desktop. Okay, can people see my screen. Yes. Okay. So what we're looking at is Ted Nelson's demo of zigzag and he uses the royal families of Europe. So as you're scrolling through this list, you can see it in different ways. So there are dimensions at the top one two and three are the default dimensions, and I'm just going to show you what he demonstrates. So say you switch views. And what I want to show you is let's go to another. Okay, not the view I want to show you a different dimension on the x axis. Once I press X, it's going to bring up different dimensions and I can't have to move that. Okay, so I'm getting to the ones that he added some for my prototype. So here is Queen Victoria her birth date and death date, because I changed the x axis to date. And now let's change the y axis to a different dimension. So think of it as filtering the data so that only what's shown in the dimension is what's shown in here on the y axis and you have a z axis as well. So what he's showing here is that it has, if I change the x axis again. Okay, I want x axis to be marriage and y axis to be children but here I just have the opposite. So here are Victoria's children. And then you can go down and see Mary of Tech. So I'm trying to find Elizabeth, Elizabeth Bose Elizabeth the second and here's Charles. So now that's where the tree ends right now but let's add Diana. So I'm going to say new and go down here and he had two wives. So we're breaking this model all of a sudden so we have to add Diana. So the editing is a little klugey and this wouldn't Henry the eighth have forced this model to like at least yeah probably right but with Diana and Camila we have enough test data. Okay, so Diana had children and Camila had children from another person. So let's just do Diana's kids. So I'm going to click back in here and we're going to do a new in the map. Well, okay in the children dimension that's what I have on x. Okay, so now I do a click here new to the right. Okay, so there are two children of Diana, then we could add Harry and William and their wives and their kids so you get the idea. Okay, so I created a Jerry rig application. So what my instructions are here change x to the dimension OGM calls so I'm just scrolling. Okay, past it so let's get back to OGM calls, and then the why access will be attendees. So you see how it's tweening as you go. So here is a date October 21 and I just did some test data three people on that call. Sorry. Kevin is accidentally unmuting himself so I just remuted him. Okay, thanks. And I thank Hank for making me host before you had to go. So thinking dimensionally. So here is looking at your data in terms of calls and attendees. So that's like a high level view so like I made up a sample call with just the women and then another call of everybody just as a sample but on this one I expanded it further. So now I'm telling you put the transcript dimension on why. Okay, and then over here, I gave you more instructions put the chat on x and the thread on Z. Okay, so we'll put chat and then thread on the Z dimension. Here it is. Okay. So now it looks like a spreadsheet, but it's not really a spreadsheet it's just it's a really connections among multi dimensional data. Okay, so here's an example of a transcript where the computer thought I was saying kombucha but I was really drinking kombucha. So I edited it later and changed it here. And then these cells could be linked in other ways as well but there were rules about what you could link across that. Well, yeah, see a cell, think of it as an immutable object and it has like a right and a left, and then you could connect those to any other dimension. And so like you could have a right in multiple dimensions. So what I did was try to figure out how you would show a thread. So hi Stacy how are you and Stacy says good how are you. Well, what is she referring to some going to go in the Z dimension, and it was referring to time to when I said, how are you. And then Jerry came in and this fine thank you. Who am I thanking. I'm thanking Stacy, so I just navigated in the Z dimension and back. So that could be a three dimensional view open GL whatever you want but the data structure is what I'm talking about. I want to ask a question if you go back to Victoria. Yeah, can you also look at property. You know, I am the Duke of X the Earl of why can you add a property land power dimension to the people. You could add whatever dimensions you want. The structure is, however you design it. For example, looking down here. Yeah, I just clarified a transcript. So like I said something and then I clarified it with this text. And then Jerry asking a question. I'm responding with a video and like there's no column that says here. It could be like a video link. It's just deciding the structure as I go. So that could get messy if you don't do it right but it takes a while to think in this way. But look at this value here so like I said I met Ted Nelson and Jerry put a comment in the chat that says And this is the time stamp. So this could be a link to the YouTube video at that time to see what people were talking about while Jerry was typing. And then here is the Xanadu link that could be a link out to the web. And then here is Stacy with a disagreement where she says I had difficulty using it. So these types of rich links where we define what type of link it is, like you want to track different things like references to sources. So this could be another dimension, like a link type, but it's up to us so like this is just after trying various things I came up with this simple idea that I didn't want to complicate it too much with with linking. I felt that chat could be part of the transcript here. And then it's browsable like this. Okay. And then. Yeah, so an Eric. Yes, are you using vanilla zigzag suffer did you create that you sort of add to this. Yeah, this is Ted's demo that he has on his zigzag page. This was created in Finland. And it's called GZZ. So anyone could download and run his demo and I just extended it with a prototype for what we're looking for. And can this run on like like the data that he is building and dropping into a GitHub repo is marked on files. Could this be an alternate view on the same sets of data that has its own kind of metadata. Well, this software is old and not maintained anymore. You can import an XML file. I haven't figured out how to do that. But it's possible if you want to play around with these ideas. But the important thing is how do you think about your data in multiple dimensions, like which dimensions would make sense for you. And then what kind of visualization would work for you where you could rotate in and see, like maybe as you're looking at a cell, you might want to see what dimensions are available and then pick one in an easier way. And then he has different views of how you can navigate. But what I just want to show next is a spreadsheet of my idea for putting it on the decentralized web. So here it is. It's coming up. Yep. Yep. So this will be it. I just want to show what I was thinking. Okay, so I'm looking at a structure called hyper core. Let me just make it bigger. So the test data that we were looking at is here on the right. So I just mapped the transcript and sample chats and responses. And then I figured out what dimensions I would want to store. And the first thing is a list of dimensions. So a hyper core is just an append only log where you just keep adding data. So like if you have a dimension time, it would be, it would have an address on the web, which is like a 64 digit hex number. And but with that number, anybody who is looking for that hash will be able to find it across a decentralized network using the hyper core protocol. So if I had all these dimensions, I'm able to link them up and creates like an example of a rich link. So this is generic with these comments and it's a chat and it's a URL link or other types of links, the link types of comments disagreements. Okay, so this is just the technical way of one way of implementing it. And then I had to start figuring out, okay, well, how would I load all this data into memory? How would I select the latest version? And how would I show the transcript? This is the technical side for people who want to think about implementing it with newer technologies, but this is just a starting point. So it's essentially like building a database all over again, but on the web in a distributed way. And see these hypercores are replicated across peers. So like if Pete has one of these and I have another one, and we're seeding each other, like, but Pete is seeding seeding maybe the events and I'm seeding utterance. Then we can communicate it'll replicate whatever new events are added on Pete's side to my version of the events. So this is now what's called multi writer, and it's using a rebasing technology which will synchronize. Yep. So I think you're, you have already redlined the Geekometer on this call. And, but I love what you're showing us it's very OGM me. But you're also now treading into territory where I, I like I think I know what you just said but I'm actually not very sure. So we can then go back and ask questions and expand on in the future. Exactly, perfect. And it's really interesting because the thing the experiment and mirror that I mentioned that Max did a long time ago was a really, really, really simple, simple, simple version of something that you just showed us in, you know, Ted Nelson's tool to zigzag through the which turns into a bunch of other, you know, very interesting ways of seeing and connecting and then later navigating through the things that are happening in the world so so thank you for that. Let me pause and see who has questions or comments on what you just showed us. I just remember it's long term thinking with this. It's really cool. Awesome work, Eric. I like where it's going and I like, I like the idea of hooking, you know, hooking it up to more stuff. So congratulations. Good job. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you. And you made me think a bunch about what I like about using the brain, which is that it has a dimensionality that's like way less flexible than what you just showed like you can just kind of pick your pick your dimensions and sort of cruise through them. But the brain is kind of like this chalkboard that only does one kind of connection, except it's really expressive for me so so I like, you know, royalty the peerage kings and queens dukes and all that. I don't have all of them and in fact, crawling through UK history it's really really actually complicated and twisty I don't know how anybody ever memorizes that. I just put all the posts because one day I just decided let's put all the folks in and on the Wikipedia very conveniently at every Pope it says previous Pope next Pope. And there's Wikipedia pages for all of them so I kind of chased through that and then I did a really like connecting of the folks into their era, like the, you know, the the edict of not is over here and it happened in the city of not. So, you could do, you could crawl through the same set of data with this particular view, and it would, it would make another group of people happy, right. One of my beliefs about visualization is that a lot of us we split I don't and I don't know what the clusters are, but the brain for a small subset of the population the brain displays like really compelling and really works. And for a bunch of other people say, what was that tangle of stuff, but a different visualization might work for them and if we can separate the data from the visualizations and create a menu of options we might actually get more people using these kinds of tools and connecting things up. Yeah, so what I'm hoping to do is experiment with the data structures only and see what if I could get the recreation of that system with a new name on the decentralized web. And then then we could experiment with visualizations and people can write their own apps against it. But in terms of sense making think of the value if each person took a portion of the data and made their own sense connecting their own links and then they make it available for people to look at and comment on and link up. And then you, yeah, it's endless. And with a little bit of AI or machine learning connected to events and connected to what we're doing, much of the linking you just talked about and some of the correcting like come bookshop. Yeah, could be done out automatically and a lot of us improving and curating winds up starting to get automated nicely. And what goes with like life logging everything is that every little utterance winds up starting to seem important in the largest thing and you lose the week for the chat. Like it gets, it gets really hard you have to have some editorial judgment about what gets included and what doesn't, or at least what gets promoted to the foreground and what doesn't visit. Yeah, you know, the internet is full of chat and we still make our way through it. You have a combination of automation and curation that works for you. Yep, exactly. So thank you. That was a cool, cool demo. Yeah, let's go Kevin Doug Michael. I just want to, I've been doing some interesting things I want to follow up on Eric, but I'd love to see is have that applied to the British royal family back in a time of change like York versus by intention, and then look at the growth in fortified castles with at least 1000 acres and those 5,000 acres and see the York and the plantageness go back and forth. Get really deep around relationships there and then you have to look at who are the heirs that are on both sides and which which way the power shifted while you see the geography shift over 50 or 60 years and then there's lots of people who I'm in two different two to related Facebook groups because I really am into the Shakespearean histories and so a lot of people would add lots of stories onto that kind of thing. So it's a place where there's already a lot of people focusing and who want to know more. And, you know, with tourist things, etc. But you know, I don't think you might show that I've not seen anything in those things that shows that the power shift between plantageness and York's over time. And, and the value of each of their resources, so that would just be any kind of fun thing to I would want to play there. I would love to see that and there's also kind of a young discipline called digital humanities. It's really not that old. People doing everything from you know searching through literary texts and doing history and connecting it up and applying all of this cool geeky stuff to the humanities and it's brilliant. It's like really, really cool. A quick update on what I'm doing with this idea of a repair fund. We have a major tourist industry here in Asheville, North Carolina. It's founded on the Biltmore mansion, which is the largest house in the country and it's it's on an industrial scale that people have to come see, even though they feel bad about it because they just play around with the community and the shuttle gets nothing. So we created a repair fund that will be controlled by the silent community and the tourism development authorities really like it the Biltmore really likes it. And we've got two other cities and we're trying to do it in Chicago and Indianapolis around similar things where displacement and tourism and you're relieving liberal guilt and they're taking and they're letting the powerless have power so they feel good about it and then like police best show that they did the repair fund and that you know the self identifying virtue signaling and with product sales and the money is controlled by the community and it seems to be catching on pretty quickly. There's technical things I could talk about it in one of the places we're helping people in Cincinnati. Asheville, there's predatory housing folks who were trying to disrupt the already displaced communities and so we're setting up a land bank and figuring out how to do that. And Chicago in Baltimore is neighborhood land trusts, never investment trust that are trying to preserve black wall streets from predatory hedge funds and stuff so it's a similar kind of property values with the control going to the people. So it's catching on really quickly. And it turns out the authorities really like to signal that they're doing this stuff and they want to get out of the politics of letting government decide what reparations isn't bossy scholars who say it's only this, you just take this action. So anyone's kind of cool. Thanks Kevin. Anyone with thoughts comments on that. Yeah, when you were talking about doing more research on the British Royal families and specific things. See, I, I'm realizing there's a connection to data warehousing that you could because in companies they build dimensional models. And if you took all the this data and put it into a database and ran a cube against it, you could do that kind of deep analysis. So it's similar to something that's already out there but what I want to do is extend it in a way that it's available to everyone on the web. So awesome. Also, also I have a particular interest in like revolutions and military affairs Kevin and so the construction of castles changes significantly as cannons get better, etc, etc, etc. You know that there's a whole bunch of other stuff that shifts power between these families, you know, on the battlefield. They're only made to innovate with stirrups and his nights were able to push folks off their horses. And so I'll share it in the link that I have a have a link of actually let me just do a real quick. A little quick screen share. And I thought that's basically a different, different works that influence lots of people I think I've shared it on a call or two before here, but for me it was James Burke's connection series. Come on little brain. There we go. So for me it was James Burke's connection series which is very much like this conversation, and he would he would you know he would say hey, then there's the stirrup and all of a sudden when you show up on the stirrup you win some battles you win some territory, and it changes history. But then there's other influential books like Atlas shrugged. Oh my gosh, as we may think by Vannevar Bush, Star Trek and Star Wars, etc, etc, and clue train I have in on here as well. But for instance Ray and Charles aims the powers of 10 video influence a lot of people and each of these Indiana Jones I have on this list and I'm happy to add things to the list if anybody sees that I'm missing them I'll put the I'll put the link in. But I think for the creation of works is really important because some of them works really stick and change a lot of people's path and opinions. And with that let's go back to our check in. We've got Doug Michael Iris. Okay, the thing that's been on my mind a lot is what's happening with car 26. And what's striking to me is that the default is that the only way to get social changes by investing. And the problem with investing is of course it wants a profit, and the people who are looking for profit one guarantees on the project so even if the projects fail, they get paid off and meanwhile, wealth is still concentrating. It's amazing history as to how it is that cop ends up being purely financialized. There's no other dialogue really going on there. Anyway, that's my first thought. Second thought is I've been reading Arnold Toinby. And David Graber and pictures are broken, who wrote a wonderful book on cultural dynamics. And the three of them together give a very complex and compelling sense of why civilizations get into trouble, and by implication why we're in trouble. Anyway, that's it. Thank you. I'm good. So Iris has to leave shortly. Can I just flip you into the queue right to second. Exactly. My apologies I didn't realize you had to have the book, but please if you don't mind. Yeah, no worries. Well hi everybody. I received an invitation from Jerry a little while ago and it's nice to be here. I'm, I have to get shot and what's, what's going on but it's great. It's a big part in the next discussions. And my background is in information science, just for the record. And I've been doing, I mean, Jerry getting in touch with me because he read a blog I wrote about passive knowledge in doing my PhD about that's it knowledge and on a cat's word. I'm here at university. So, very fond of knowledge information science and, and all that. And we think from Europe actually because I live in new biennial Slovenia. So that's all for me for now. Oh thanks Iris and I just posted a link to the particular that particular post that had attracted my attention, which was about the concept of Bob. Which comes out of the knockout and by by is so the space of knowing and space of knowledge context context for knowledge space of knowing things like that. It's a lovely lovely concept. And I like to think that OGM is one of those sorts of things by is just be a Julian. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll put this concept. So actually, let me just do a quick screen share. So here's the kind of here's the the post there and Iris writes about their four types of bar. Cyber bar exercising by interacting bar and originating bar, you can read the post for background and then here's by itself, which is no knocker concept. I'm a little machine. There we go. So here's the, here's a kujiro no knocker, and the bunch of other things around it so shared space for relationships, knowledge management, Japanese culture, etc. And the Kenevan framework which some of us are familiar with that Dave Snowden created was a competitive response to the idea of bar. When when when Snowden read about by he's like, Oh my God, we're working on a bunch of stuff we need a cool name so he looked into Welsh, and found Kenevan which means the place of all our belongings. So, so next time you see Kenevan spelled this way C Y N E F I N realize that it's also kind of a competitive reply. Sorry, I have to leave. I'll be there longer next time. Thank you for being here really appreciate your, your being here. Bye. Bye. So now we have, could we have left that we haven't gone through Michael and Doug just went and I think that's it Stacy past. Michael floors yours. Well, I am not, not in a great spot right now so I'm not on video but I will check in got here late but have really been interested in what I heard and, and Eric, your presentation kind of set a lot of gears turning so that's really cool. It really looks interesting. I just wanted to endorse the event that that mark and Pete I think both posted. That's late today. And also wanted to mention, I see that Wendy had said something about solid. And there's a nice primer, you know, just easy and on solid just to talk with Ethan Zuckerman on his podcast remaking the internet. That's from a little ways back. And that podcast in general, I find is a great doorway into the work of a lot of different people. I just wanted to plug it for anybody who wasn't already familiar with it. It's remaking the internet reinventing the internet, excuse me with Ethan Zuckerman and it's on Apple podcasts but not on some of the other, like it's not on Spotify and I think I saw somewhere else that it wasn't. It's on site. I'm sorry if I can get to my computer, I'll post a link, but just wanted to add that. Yeah, and I don't, I don't have much of a check in today. No worries. Thank you. And is it today. Sorry. I think the secretary and Kalea Hamlin are also running an open space around Facebook and the Facebook papers and stuff like that I think that's sort of a leave Facebook movement or getting off Facebook for several days like a boy cat or Facebook something like that which is really interesting. And I just had a had a conflict and I couldn't couldn't join but I think that's today. I don't remember exactly. There's the Facebook movement which is coming up in a few days. Not unplug but log out of Facebook. So exactly log out of Facebook. That will help me find it because that's what I, that is what I put it under. They have a website log out of Facebook or something like that. It's the 12th, actually is the event. I think. And Yes, here it is. The Facebook log out, I guess it's called here's a logging off Facebook what comes next. Here's a link to the event. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah, nine, nine a.m. Pacific noon Eastern. I'm interested in metaverse Facebook papers, those kinds of issues for a second if we want to sort of checked in. And Julian, I would love if you metaverse. Yeah, I would love just to hear what your thoughts are on Facebook's announcements and renaming and all that. Because it seems to be in the air and in the sort of beat community is like, hey, wait a minute. What they just go do. And you've got a cat in the metaverse you're muted so we don't hear you right now. That's actually the cat averse. Okay, the other kitty was being a little rambunctious. Actually still is. My basic observation on whatever you want to call it is that I don't believe a company that's been doing evil for the last decade is going to change its stripes along with a name change. So in fact, in the work I do with XR I don't support Facebook products because I don't think many people know that when they, when you put on a Facebook VR device it's tracking your item with and monetizing that, and you have to agree to it. They've said that the meta they won't require that but the question is okay with them what are they going to require to think it's better to just avoid the situation entirely. And also wanted to point out that many people think metaverse is something that Facebook invented and this has been around since even Neil Stevenson says a burner revenge really brought the concept up in true names which was close to 40 years ago I think. It's not anything new it's just a massive marketing campaign done in such a way as to get lots of 1981. Oh that is 40 years. Yeah, yeah, well done. So, I view meta as a new marketing campaign from Facebook done in such a way as to generate lots of free publicity. Otherwise, not much else. Do you want to talk about what you want to do with that. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of articles about. Well, so Facebook Mark Zuckerberg's decides that they're going to do the metaverse a couple years ago but then if they decide they're going to get real about it for whatever reason, which is probably not, I don't think it's the real reason that they say. But then a bunch of people start writing about it so there's a lot of a lot of information about the metaverse so almost in an emergent fence since making way. I kind of want to set up a website that's just got, you know, here's, you know, here's 102050 hundred articles about, you know, the origins of the metaverse true names. There's no crash, you know, all the way up to, you know, what Oculus and, you know, Facebook and monetizing your, your eye tracking and all that kind of stuff so it just seems like there, there ought to be a resource where all that gets collected together. And I guess I haven't gotten to look for one maybe there's one already but in my hubris it's like, let's make a website, which is underneath it of course a massive looking. I think there's a wiki of it Ethan Zuckerman's article about hey I made a, hey Facebook I made a medivac back when does a really nice job of stepping through a whole bunch of them including a few very obscure ones. And the one. So, so, you know, so for years hence, those of us who have been thinking metaverse thoughts for 40 years are going to say, and by the way you should read that Ethan Zuckerman article right so. So here's a start of, here's a start of it. Exactly. So here's his, here's his piece, and he tells the story of how at, while he was at tripod. They basically skinned land to move, which was moves are multi user object oriented environments there was an era, believe it or not back in the day when muds and moves were really exciting. And we were all like, ooh, this is really cool. And I can relate. So, 1992 or so, in the operation center of netcom the biggest internet service provider at the time. Literally, all the, all the customer service wraps technical service wraps, the people that you would call on the phone, they were all logged into a mud. And that's how they, they shared information. And that's when, when you left for the day, you kind of needed to leave some state hey the pop and in Cincinnati is down. If anybody calls we're fixing it blah, blah. All of that state was in the mud, and literally you'd log into the mud and kind of read up on what was going on. And, and that's, it's the, you know, the collaboration mechanism that they used. It helped it. It helped that all those kids, they were all kids hired from the Midwest, brought to Silicon Valley with promises of big salaries for the Midwest and not big salaries in Silicon Valley so yeah, they could afford to pay rent and work at that's all. But it was a great learning experience for them. Yeah, Microsoft teams. I had a teams call yesterday and I was reminded what a crap piece of software teams is. It's like really like like makes zoom really look great. Like when you come back to zoom you're like true I can move windows around I can. I don't have a little menu that's lying on top of the presentation I'm trying to watch that I can't move or get rid of, etc, etc. It really depends if you're on a Mac or a PC, if you're on a PC. And you're hooked in through. Sure. Through the through the limbic system. No, it's so basically, you know, in a previous life career, I did SharePoint knowledge based systems. And basically, it's built on top of SharePoint, and it's amazingly powerful when you get deep into it I've seen online courses that were just absolutely amazing and beautiful, and for collaboration and participative learning. I haven't seen anything better. It's absolutely fantastic. Then again, I don't. I, I'm a Mac hater. Unfortunately, I work on a Mac every day at the archive. That sounds hard. But yeah, but I'm on a PC right now so I'll go back to my shaving. There we go. Yeah, you got the video instead of the audio. Cool. And, and you show no visible ticks or anything like that from having worked on SharePoint and, and I just I think I just tweeted a couple days ago because somebody had written something about Microsoft. And I sort of replied by saying, gosh, whenever somebody mentions they have to use SharePoint or teams I offer my sympathies and they always shrug and laugh and agree. So you have seen a much better side of all of that than I have seen. That's for sure. I'm used to, you know, that's, you know, my favorite OS is DOS. What, what, what, you know, what you can get done in it is amazing if. And basically, you know, like anything you invest in the learning curve. So let me just point out you can get lots done with cards too. You can get lots done with tinker toys as or Lego bricks, you know, or Lego bricks exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So when I joined Esther in whatever the hell a year that was 92, I guess. Her word processor was Zyrite, and Zyrite was the PC version of ATEX, which was the newsroom reporters used ATEX to submit their stories as slugs and ATEX had a little workflow process that it would submit it to editors and then it would show up in the in the type setting device in the newsroom. So Zyrite was like a PC knockoff of it, and it ran in in DOS basically so I had to learn to use Zyrite and Esther's calendar was in Zyrite as a shared file on our little drive. And so she had everything she was doing, including who was picking her up at the airport for each trip, you know, the phone number for hotel what time the pool opened, because Esther has to swim every morning. So all of that was encoded very, very compactly in Zyrite. And then once you've absorbed into your the back of your the base of your skull, like all the Zyrite keyboard commands it's like word star back in the day or name, you know, if you if you learn word processing before the simple wissy wig ones, you kind of embedded a bunch of commands really deep in your system, and you like them you're kind of like oh okay I just do and it's a little bit like your Bruce Lee fighting off ninjas. And those things are hard to shake and hard to get rid of so I, you know, Esther's finally I think she's finally offside right. I hope she's finally offside right but but those things are buried really quite deep. I just want to add that. And if you were unlucky enough to work at a newspaper as I was working at the Village Voice in the days of a text. You actually learn to design on a text, which was not fun. Yeah, here to you for HTML. Yeah, that's all. I used to manually do I mean, as I write did a little bit of primitive hyphenation. I mean, it could understand hyphens and set of words, but I used to have to go do widows orphans hyphens all that kind of stuff manually through the issue every time. And then of course if we change something early in the issue of cask, you know, it would ripple through and I'd have to redo it and fully. It reminds me also the first time I ever saw a page maker. I was working in St. Louis for a strategic management consulting group within price waterhouse and before hours at a computer store computer land maybe I don't know. But there was a guy from all this I guess who showed us page maker. And my first question to him when he was done with the demo is, oh cool that's great and when you split a column from page one to page five. Does it automatically at the top of the column on page five does the same continued from page one and then continue and he looks at me like what planet did you just drop off like we just launched this it doesn't do that yet. It's very funny, so we'll take what we can get. Any, we are now having a geek off in the, I was a, I was a pine user for what it's worth back in the day. And pine is a text editor that means pine is not Elm Elm is another word editor. Oh man. So, anybody want to go into one of the topics we put on the table or cop 26 this going on right now or should we wrap the call. What about the next call topic that we could do you mean we should do that with words in like real time like this, that could be a. I like it. Mark your net connection seems to be a little shaky right now you've, you've blurred into a strange caricature of yourself. But I would love to do that. Anybody want to propose some topics for next call. Maybe the next topic should be Tico. Oh God. Tico and three lines. I become interested in April's book about flux. Do you have you read it. I, oh, I read it. Who here has read it anybody. Stacy just got it from the library I know that I'm in the process of reading it and I really love it. And I don't usually sit down to read, so this is enjoyable. Cool. Hi bar. I'm cool and I'm, I could invite April to one of our calls or like next Thursday and maybe or I could represent for her because I'm I've read it a few times I would say and I'm in one of the chapters. One of her superpowers is start with trust which is based on a lot of the work that I've been doing on trust. And there they are from the notes that he just showed. I say this with all due respect, but you can substitute for April. What. All right, I'm going to remember that Stacy. There are some things in the introduction that just hit home and I'm not ready. I think we invited April and I'd love a chance to read the book a bit before, at least a bit, you know, before we have that conversation I think that would be fun. So, for me, I prefer not to do it next week and maybe the time after with a little forewarning that would be nice. That sounds cool and that also April's got way too many engagements right now she's like book wall to wall. So, you know, having her show up on a Thursday call will take a little bit of ranking but that'll buy us time to read the book. So, what are some of the topics that matter to people and, yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind talking a little bit about metaverse, you know, if, if, especially if Pete you're looking at putting a project together maybe we spend some time talking about what we're seeing what we're reading putting putting articles and things that we know about in the, in the chat stream and start to organize the organize it together. Just thought. I like that would be a lot piece sounds great. Yeah. One of the articles like I, I've got in my list now some tabs or something like that but it's, it's about, here's the right way to do a metaverse. So, I, it's an interesting, you know, it's an interesting happenstance, kind of like COVID happening or, or something like that it's like, okay so some billionaire some multi billionaire decided he's going to drop $10 billion on this thing that he's going to screw up so to kind of gather around and, and teach people, you know, what it really means. Yeah, the, the, the valence he's stealing and, and the right way to do it, as opposed to the Facebook way to do it. Do you do you envision in my head I'm already envisioning it would be the same structure as what you just put together for the OGM call from last week. Yeah, is that what you're picturing to. Okay. Yeah. I've been pondering doing a short medium post or something like that about this metaverse thing with a bunch of thoughts, and also the idea that the metaverse I would like to inhabit let's pretend Zuckerberg hadn't said all these things and talked about the metaverse so much. So let's try to rewind your brains to the, the pure metaverse pre the owning. It looks a lot like where OGM is aiming that that that a little avatar world where you can buy the sweater that that ladies walking by with is not a world I want to inhabit, but a place where we can share what we know, and curate it so that it better represents what we do next and why and whatever else is actually a thing I'm apparently devoting a whole bunch of my life energy to so I'm trying to figure out how to communicate that properly in an article that says there is a possibility of a really interesting metaverse out there's just not the one that Zuckerberg painted. Right, it has it has astonishingly little resonance and relate and resemblance to the one that Zuckerberg painted which is dangerous boring and cumbersome. Yeah. Okay good so topic chosen, we're going to talk next week about the metaverse, I love it. And this gives us some incentive to pre pack whatever it is we want to do about the topic so let's let's post that on the OGM calls channel on matter most so that we like everybody and then let's offer up riffs connections screen shares whatever anybody wants to do on the topic for this reading list, and if I'm, if I'm lucky I will. I will have written the post I just talked about. So let me just share screen here to the thought in my brain. So I'm, I'm collecting up a bunch of reviews articles critiques of this so I've got Zuckerberg declares the metaverse opposite to Facebook papers which is, you know the bad month to be another bad month to be Mark Zuckerberg, and then the meta the renaming of the rebranding of the Facebook umbrella organization to meta etc, and other kinds of things there so I'll post a link to this nexus in the chat. Like this. Cool. Any other thoughts, any or any any closing thoughts for today or reflections on where we to geeky today was this an okay check and call I mean, I feel like we saw a lot of stuff that we don't normally get to see. And that it was geeky because we saw geeky sort of stuff which is cool. But I think maybe some people who like to come in and just hearing what people are up to. It might have been a little too much heat factor but I don't mind I think that's important to let it go, go in which direction. I appreciate that it didn't dominate the entire 90 minutes, you know, but I appreciate hearing it because conceptually everything weeds together so, and not even though Eric, you know I don't live in that world, and, but I completely understood what you were thinking, right and and appreciated, particularly this, you know, the fact that the z axis exists and the filtering exists and I get where that goes. So even though I can't live in that world with you, I completely appreciate the work that you're doing and how you're thinking it through and and and that's exciting so I think it all has a has a piece in the puzzle and appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. And also, just to riff on that. One of the things I'm trying to figure out how to explain or how to steer toward is the idea of like a view master kind of app, where, as you click on the view master, the way you look at the same sort of data changes and you can you can then choose and zigzag and Eric your is awesome I've never seen it demoed that nicely. And that the zigzag is a particular way of walking through data, you know, through paths and dimensions and that means you have to declare dimensions and make those links but it's really rich. A different way of viewing the world might be, you know, the web diagram that Pete was demonstrating that obsidian can generate, and then a different one or something else and finding your way to the right. And a different one would be 3D objects in space which Julian's working on. And how to find your way to the best representation for the moment, I think is a really interesting question. Like how do we pick our way through, how do we become aware of the varieties of representation because lots of people specialize, or they find one they like and they get hooked on that and they're kind of done. They're aware of a lot of the other ways of walking through data and information and and mark what you said about sort of where the archive is heading about. Hey, how do we add value to the information how do we make it more accessible in different ways instead of just storing it. That's really, really interesting here. And for me that like the view master is a really primitive metaphor to say, what if there was a frame within which applications played nicely, and then you could start to choose and pick and navigate, which way you go. No, I haven't been able. I was going to kick in here modern equivalent that would be Google cardboard. If anybody needs when a couple of dozen sitting in the box on the advantage of a Google cardboard over view masters that the view masters were taken from a fixed viewpoint and the interactive. Remember, some months ago I showed my 3D knowledge navigator. And in fact, if you're viewing that on a cardboard when you when you tap on the screen it actually means move to the node that I'm looking at currently. So, because you can of course, move your head around with a cardboard right now looks around different places in the network, but that was the one navigation mechanism I was able to come up with quickly. And again, if anybody needs a Google cardboard I'll send you one because I've got a carton full of them. And Julian, I totally realize the weaknesses of the view master analogy. It's just that every almost everybody used to view master as a child at some point or found one in the attic or something like that so it's a really common thing. And not that many people know what a Google cardboard is so. Yeah, there's some in my library. I've got a couple in my drawer assembled and just sitting there going, Why does nobody use me. Wendy. I'd love one. I think that would be cool. Thank you. And to me this is exactly what I've been picturing to in terms of the visual right we need some sort of standard visual that really rests on the decentralized Web in the sense that you know apps can it or it can be an app in which the data comes in from all over but then has some sort of standardized viewing capability right so we can start to make sense of this and we're not having to learn different software all the time. Oh, one thing I should mention is that the view master company themselves did in a cardboard app some years ago. I think it's just continued now. Love that. So that's kind of where we're aiming. I mean that's that's a piece of how we're trying to work our way through this thing. So, so we have a topic for next week. We had a lovely call. And Michael is holding up a damn view master. Well done. Well done, Michael. Thank you. I'm feeling some nostalgia at the moment. Yeah. Does everybody know what the term nostalgia means. Oops. So, nostalgia is what East Germans felt after the fall of the wall. When some of them were like, damn, I kind of miss the old crappy times in the DDR, because they used to call hostess East in German. And so I'll study, I'll study is actually the German word is what they called their nostalgia for the previous times before capitalism had eaten their world entirely. We haven't seen the movie Goodbye Lenin. Highly has anybody watched Goodbye Lenin. Only one of us okay premise premise is this young this young very sweet guys mom has been in a coma for a while. And so sorry she goes into a coma she's very very sick. She slips into a coma right as the wall falls. She wakes up and the wall is down and everybody's in the streets and everybody got rid of their old DDR furniture and they're running around. And the doctor says to this young guy, if your mom has a big shock of the system she might die. You can't let her know that the wall has fallen that the DDR is gone. So he proceeds to reenact the DVR. He then, and sorry for the plot spoiler, but it's so cute. He then reenacts the TV newscasts that the DVR was known for and all of that. It's all in Goodbye Lenin. It's a lovely movie. And hilarious. Yeah, yeah, it's very it's really what like the premise is good is really good. And the actual work of the movie is excellent. Also, there's a series called the movies that made us that is the backstory behind a lot of famous movies that I just sort of watched a bit of like at night to get sleep it's really excellent. With that, off to our days. Thank you very much. See you soon. Thanks for co thinking and co being.