 The meeting of the Joint Caval Planning Committee for June 6th, 2019, at 8.35, and the purpose of this meeting is really to kind of think about the process that we had this year and what we would like to, what we like, what we didn't like, or would suggest to change, whichever way you want to put it, and at least do a broad outline of what it is that's processed for next year. So Shun and I did two different takes of what the questions are, and I ended up with very broad-struck questions. He ended up with some very important practical questions that get us, that sort of narrow it down to a much more specific planning process. So I don't know if at some point we should just go ahead and hand yours out too, because what I had suggested, wanted to suggest that we start talking about, at least for a couple minutes, is the questions of, as I just said, what we particularly liked about the process this year and what we would have done differently, and thoughts about how we are going to adjust the schedule, what lessons we learned or observed in the scheduling process, knowing that next year is going to be the first full year that this committee is operating under the new form of government. This year was a transition year. The other two issues that I had identified was that we need to talk a little bit about how this committee is going to be involved in the next stage of the planning for the large capital projects and the sequencing of the large capital projects. I'm going to hold that off to say anything more about for a few minutes. The other thing that I wanted to get a little bit of a sense of is how we communicated with the boards and committees that we represent and whether we should have more definition of what it is that we sort of use all of our collective role in doing that, because we are, you know, that has been a discussion prior, JCPC, is about treating this as a committee with home committees and that we have a communication responsibility. So, are there other ideas of major roadstrip issues that we would like to have discussed? So, if I may start with just, maybe we can go around a little bit, is to whether there's anything that was particularly good about this year's process or anything that you really wished had been different? Yeah. First of all, I think the materials provided for us were excellent. I think that for, particularly because two of us were really completely brand new to this process, and fortunately for the people from the library and the schools, you know, you'd been on JCPC in the past and also on those boards, so you knew the process, but from my perspective, if we had not had the overviews as a council of libraries and schools at the very beginning of our tenure, it would have been very difficult for us to jump into those issues and understand. So the materials fit into a pattern, if you will, of other information we had received prior to as a full council, but it does make me wonder whether or not there needs to be some level of orientation for JCPC regarding the full set of capital projects that maybe we're missing, so that people from the library who may not be as familiar with fire and DPW and police and so forth have more understanding of that. Just building on your comments, I also loved the materials and thought that they were very thorough. I have some ideas for tweaks for future, but we're talking about what worked well, but I would also second the idea of a more thorough orientation. I was brand new to the process, so I'm familiar with the schools budgets and the schools needs and just out of interest was vaguely familiar with library needs, but really was a steep learning curve on all of the other capital needs and really sort of felt that a loss as to what were the right questions to ask and what should I be paying attention to, so I think something, and that's not, Andy did spend some time with me sort of orienting and grounding me in materials from last year, so that was super helpful. I think some more in depth, just lexicon if you will, about sort of the process of capital and a glossary for newcomers to the process, I think, so that they're not learning during the discussions and the presentations, but sort of getting a more sound learning foundation before even hearing the presentations. Alex? So I would echo because two years ago when I was initially starting the same thing, and I think the hardest thing for me initially was didn't really fully understand so you got to the end and we started chopping things, so once you sort of gone through the process, I think you start to ask questions differently because you realize at the end you're going to have to prioritize and reorganize, and so I would echo making sure that people fully understand that the manager is going to present his budget at the end, he's going to make his cuts at the end, and then we're going to sort of discuss what he does, so I think understanding that process. I would also say that the thing I noticed this year was because we have town counselors, I assume that's partially part of the reason is that the discussions were in some cases a lot more in depth, which I don't think is a bad thing, but I think the process felt very rushed, no one ever had enough time, we were running over, and so I think it's good, but I think just from a macro level, we probably need to decide are our priorities the large projects or do we really want to be looking at things that $10,000 chairs, things like that, I mean what really is the charge of this board or this committee so that we can use our time efficiently, so I don't know what we ultimately decide, but I guess it just felt rushed to me this year in terms of some questions were a lot deeper, but then I felt like we skipped some things and we spent a lot less time into liberations than we have in the past, and so I just, and I think that's all just a matter of this being sort of a newer committee within slightly different charge possibly, and so I would just, I think we should just work out sort of the top level what our goals are. Yeah. I've been on JCPC for five years, and this was a very different process in part because everything has changed, but it was much more formal. We used to sit around the table downstairs with the Chief of Police and the Fire Chief, and you'd get much more of an informal conversation and you'd learn a lot more, and it would be an easier give and take, so I think that for me this was much more formal that they're sitting there and they're looking at everybody up here, and it can't necessarily be helped, but it was just a comment on how JCPC ran earlier versus this year for me, and I think, I don't know if they were more nervous. I think they were when I think back to when they would come in front of us on the table, it might have been up here at a table, but it usually was down in the downstairs room, but I think we need to figure out how to make them feel more comfortable so we can have more of an exchange, a conversation rather than this presentation and questions at them. I don't know how we can do that, but I think it made it harder to really find out information from them. That's just an observation. Well, I can, I can, because in the past I had had interaction with the JCPC and it always was much more, it was formed as an informal group, it was formed initially for the big projects that's now become the smaller projects as well. And when it was named in the charter, it got thrown into a different category of formality. And I know there's, I've heard other people kind of regret that that formality has been placed on JCPC, but it is part of it. Now, one of the nice things is that the downstairs meeting room, the first floor meeting room is being equipped with video camera and so forth. So if we think the room can hold us all, we actually could go back to more of a roundtable discussion. And that might get back to a little more of the informality and in-depth. So as one of the new members, I didn't know what to expect. And I think I'm going to echo that I felt the process seemed really rushed. And I think part of that might have been because of the transition, but I think part of it does go to different questions being asked, different sort of, sort of priorities by counselors versus library versus schools and what we as counselors might be thinking, what are we going to have to tell our committee now? And so I would love to see an earlier start. I don't even know whether that also means an earlier end, too. I know our finance committee that I don't sit on, I'm the nonfinance representative here. I think felt really rushed this year in budget as a whole. And part of that I think was because CPA, JCPC, you know, capital improvement plan, CPA and operating all came at the same time. And so if they can be split up and if it's logical to be split up, that might be good. My background is a charter commissioner. When we were looking at charters, the capital improvement plan, most charters have been presented by March 1. I think after going through this budget cycle, I now understand why those are presented by March 1 in general. And so maybe that's a good goal to look to that might elongate a budget process but spread it out for staff, for council, for everything. I did like the, I'm going to call it the resident request process. Instead of citizen, because you don't need to actually be a U.S. citizen to make a request, but I did like the process. I think we can do it better. But I think it's an important part of the process. I think it's an important part of bringing new knowledge or new desires and wants into what capital needs there are, either through us, but residents are going to have potentially different needs than staff and wants than staff. And I think it helps show us where those fall. So I want to keep it somehow. Probably better to be done before department I'd love to keep that process. So I thought about a couple of things. I think they've been touched on a little bit. I'll do the, I'll start with one that you just ended on and then go to the other one that I was thinking about. The citizen process has been evolving. This was really the second year. First year it was I think just literally the first year and we just got a few sidewalk requests and street requests and these, my street really needs to repair kind of thing. This year we got some more thoughtful and innovative kinds of suggestions, but they also tied into what various departments need to work on or are already working on and they need to be informed by professional staff if we're going to take them seriously is this is practical, this is impractical, this is what it would cost. So that the comments that have been made about the timetable of getting the citizen request process started a whole lot earlier seems to make sense if we're going to make it a useful process because then we can plug it back into the staff process. The other thing that is a very different topic and really hasn't been brought up is in the end, both this year and last year, for very legitimate and important reasons, we came to an agreement with a suggestion that came from Mr. Bachmann which was we need to really focus on the backlog of street and road repairs and that that should be a priority and should be guiding us through. But it seemed awkward that we went through that much of the process before figuring that out and if we were going to have a big piece of money that was going into a specific purpose that we knew earlier that the rest of the needs was going to fit into a smaller bucket. If we make a decision, this is a broad way because it's really a community decision that a major one or more major projects like some buildings are going to take up the priority and that we are going to allocate from the let's call it 10% that's going to be allocated to capital. We would take that money first off the top and we would know that that money has been committed because we've made the decision on the major project. At what point does something like roads become so large that it also ought to be taken off at the beginning of the process and not wait to the end of the process. You know, Andy, I've been thinking about this and I think you just gave me the clue I needed and that is at what point in the calendar year, the fiscal year, excuse me, the fiscal year are each of the different issues that come forward to JCPC ready and the reality is roads may be the one that's ready anytime and we could start with roads and sidewalks and come to some kind of, you know, I mean, we could start talking about that tomorrow. We're not going to. We could start talking about it tomorrow because whatever is there is still there that isn't going to get done this year and by the fall, we pretty much know what's not going to get done because your prime time for road repair is passed by the time you get deep into the fall. So part of what I've been wrestling is at what point will each of the major pieces of what comes into JCPC be ready for the committee to actually look at and I look to Paul, I look to the schools and the libraries and say, you know, we just got done discussing yours. Is it true that you would be able for us to have a discussion starting in September on that or would it be better to have libraries a little later because they need more time or schools a little later? For instance, because we're waiting on this very critical December 12th date for the school decision out of the Mass School Building Authority. So if part of what I think we need to figure out and have the town manager help us figure out is the order in which things could be ready to come forward to us. So I guess another thing that's in looking back that somewhat surprised me of this process is the level of detail and it shouldn't have surprised me because I sat on town meeting and I always saw the level of detail, but the level of detail meaning this particular truck or this particular rooms furniture and when we're looking at improving a five year plan, would it be if we're talking about taking major things off? Would it be easier for this committee to say we want to dedicate a hundred thousand or two hundred thousand dollars every year to vehicles? So bring us figure out how what the priority of vehicles is and and then plug into a five year plan, not this particular vehicle this year, this particular vehicle this year, but two hundred thousand vehicles every year for five years. I know we know how we have a lot of stuff like police vehicles that we hear a presentation on this year. We're doing three police vehicles. We probably don't need to hear that presentation every year if every year we're going to say three police vehicles, three police vehicles, four police vehicles. We could really better do a five year plan if we just know those are going to be standard things that come out every year and now what's left for sort of the unpredictable? Is there, I don't know whether that's a better way to do it or not better way, but would it be better for us to say as a JCPC and then leave up the decisions for which vehicles generally to the manager, but we're saying this many, this total amount of vehicles, this total amount of, you know, furniture, this it's another way to look at our role is larger groups. Yeah, I foresee one possible issue with that idea, which is that this committee's membership is going to change every year and to say, okay, we know that they're going to request three police vehicles every year. We don't need to discuss it, but there's going to be two or three new people every year and they're going to say, wait, why do we do it every year? What happens to the old ones? And I mean, I've seen it even with some of the fire department stuff, even just in the two years I've been here. Some of the same questions are getting asked because then their people are new and it was addressed before, but they didn't know that. Yeah. I guess my only comment about that is so some of the questions that I asked this year, I purposely asked because I knew there were new people and I knew they were going to have to consider things at the end of this cycle. That they may not realize that they were going to have to consider. And so, and many times I ask questions that I already know the answers to because you're trying to elicit responses so that everybody can contemplate. And so, I mean, I kind of agree with, with Mandy in a sense of, you know, I don't, if there were new people coming to the committee and I think it's very easy to say that there's a cycle for cars. There's a cycle for furniture. There's a, you know, whatever it looks like, that to me feels very explainable to, as part of the, if we create an orientation process for new JCPC members, maybe that's part of the packet. So I guess I just wouldn't discount that as something we look at. I think that's a solvable issue. I guess what I'm saying. So, and I don't know, I mean, Paul have a better sense of the answer to this. There seems to be a value to the people who come to us, is it for the, for Guilford to talk about the state of his equipment for Tim Nelson to be able to come and talk about the fire trucks and the challenges of continuing to function with that man, that the fire truck that he's talked about for as long as I can remember this committee and as we talked about that lighter truck the first time I was on the committee. Is it important that they have the opportunity to talk to some, to this group as a representative of the boards and committees we represent about those issues? So thank you. First a side note, Sonia was called out because she had the interview with a potential finance committee member and then realized or was told that there were going to be a multiple interviews so she may not be back this afternoon to this meeting and she's just sent me crying eyes because she really want to be part of this discussion or maybe didn't want to be part of that. I'm not sure which. So, so I do think that the, so you're hitting on a lot of really key things. Do you want to be very general about sort of what our priorities are as a community and or are we, are we supposed to be, is this committee supposed to dig down into the actual life cycle of a vehicle of a particular vehicle and then the other question that Andy wrote or it was raised is, is it important for department has to have an audience with somebody other than town manager to say we really want our fire truck or our conservation department pickup truck or something like that and while there's some value to that I think that it creates an uneven playing field because some people are really good presenters and they're they're very compelling and or have areas that they're really committed to and others are just not and I think what I rely on is the department heads and then weighing those things in terms of the value to the community of their capital requests. Some of the other things, so I think it's important to think about what is the role, why did JCPC get created and one of the things is to create communication among the three elected bodies to make sure capital is being allocated fairly amongst the three so that it's not just all going into one thing. The school and most community schools are really powerful in or the town is right, whatever it is and I think this is the creative communication and to build a unified language that you all share that says here's where our priorities are in terms of is this fair, does this fair feel fair to everyone. Just one other side note is on the residents recist slash citizens request. That's something I think we really have to work on because right now it's a couple two or three and we can do some work on those but if someone comes in with a dozen things or 22 things for the DPW or the schools or something, how much staff time are you going to expect us to devote to someone's idea that the department doesn't see as a priority? And so and I think that that figuring that where that is is going to be really important because I think the process this is involving residents of the community in the group decision making is really important but we usually have in the process is set up that that puts a little bit more onus on the resident to do the work and that's can feel again that creates an uneven playing field towards the resident because they don't have the resources or the knowledge. So getting that right and figuring out how that fits into the participatory budgeting commission process will be sort of interesting to see how that plays out in terms of timing. I think we have already had the conversations about plotting the sort of works work schedules of the schools because they have different they have a different timeframe because they have to hit the town meetings. The CPA JCPC and then operating because you're right. All this work is falling on counselors and on staff at the same time and it was not manageable. It was manageable but we it was not great to have that all happen and we want to establish sort of it would be great to establish a more coherent timeframe so that I don't know if the time the number of meetings I don't I think the number of means you had is probably equivalent to what has been had in the past. I haven't counted them so I don't know if it's the number of meetings but the timing of the meetings is worthwhile because everything was hitting at the same time and many people sit on the same committees so you're having double meetings. So those are my thoughts. First of all I'm very glad to see Kathy here. Oh I'm sorry. Go ahead Lynn keep going. I'm very glad to see Kathy here since Kathy is the council's representative on participatory budgeting and that is the commission and that is a group that has to take a piece of the charter and come back with a report to the council on whether and how we would do participatory budgeting. Okay and one of the issues in fact with JCPC and the ability of residents to submit requests in some ways that's like a kind of role that could happen in a participatory budgeting process so it's a very it's in there that's so that's just one thing I'm going to take a different tactic on something that people are going at and that is I think we owe it to the public to have a group that in fact does look at this stuff and looks at it at some level in detail. No other group does that. You know the schools do it for the schools and the library does it for the library. For the town council we would only do it as we look in a deep in depth into the budget every year and so even though town meeting would see some of this in the past come out of JCPC the reality is it was often a you know a one night maybe not even a full night and there is also the possibility that you have turnover in people both on staff and council and some history has to reside somewhere. Now it's not going to reside in JCPC but JCPC helps ensure that there is some public discussion of these other issues in the town that cost a lot of money that are part of our ongoing operation and as far as I know this is the only place that really gets discussed. So that's I don't I don't want to hear about the same fire truck every year on the other hand maybe we need to keep it out it out there so it's known. It's a small comment but going way back to I think Mandy Joe's earlier comment about bucketing things into some of the smaller items into big buckets. And I think the reference was in every year we're going to have vehicles so we don't need to talk about them and I would say actually it would be one thing to consider might be to still do those bucketing. We still talk about the buckets every year and we hear about sort of where the priorities are within the buckets but rather than talking about new sets of tables and chairs for the police station versus new furniture for Town Hall. We're just talking about furniture and then it's up to the town administrator to decide how to how to spend those funds throughout the year. And maybe it's a dollar thresholds that's a little bit higher that we that we talk about things on a on a one-off basis and and sort of group things like expenditures furniture is one vehicles might be one those those tend to be expensive but I do wonder if there's a way that we can sort of bucket them so that we're not drilling into the the state of the countertops in in the kitchen at the at the bang center. So that was my only thought there. You know the one observation that I offer those that each of the departments has multiple requests that cover a number of different areas so that you may get the fire department talking about safety equipment communications equipment and vehicles. We don't want to ask Chief Nelson to come three times to the committee. I would not be an efficient use of his time. That's the additional thing to just ponder. Yes, Alex. So I guess what my concern issue is is that I think we had a lot of meetings and we spent a lot of time talking about chairs and automobiles and things like that. But what I don't feel like happened is I don't know the priorities of JCPC relative to our large capital projects. I don't feel like I have a good sense of where we are over five years, 10 years. And so I don't have a problem talking about fire trucks. I don't I mean I'm I'm happy to have extra meetings to make that happen. But in the structure that we have I don't see us. I did my I didn't see us walking away with what I felt like we were trying to make our charge this year because I just don't think we had the time to do it. And so I don't mind being in the weeds as long as we still know what our charge is and that mean if I guess that's I mean do we do we create our own charge here? Is it already created for us? Are we at the macro level? Like for me the most important thing to define is what is our main charge? Is it to create the priorities for these large capital projects for the budget as a whole? And I think from there we can start deciding how much time we spend on individual pieces versus the whole picture because so I guess that's just the main thing I would put it. I'm happy to have extra meetings to do it. I just think that they come to me and because the charter speaks to the charge as much as anything does at this point. We passed a charge. We passed a charge but based on it came from the came from the charter. I mean it did. I'll comment on that. And then I had a different comment. Kind of relates to all of this. The Charter Commission put it in the charter because the Charter Commission felt having the three elected boards together to talk about capital including large capital but you know distribution of yearly capital was important for the reasons at least the yearly capital the manager did of not you know that it's fair between the different departments and all but then the Charter Commission also felt it was really necessary to have a place to talk about the large capital projects and so they wanted to ensure that there was a place in the charter that required some sort of capital talking. You know we put a finance committee into but we wanted to make sure capital didn't get pushed to the wayside. The council has adopted a charge. It was based mainly on the capital the Charter itself. And so that charge could be expanded either at the request you know council would have to pass it but JCCC could request expansion and a modification of it or you could go to the council and get the council to rewrite it by itself. What I was going to say about something else you just said and I'll stick it in before I'm done talking is one of the things that surprised me was we spent all this time looking at the individual requests and then it was like we got to the last meeting we're like we have to have our five-year plan that manager proposes here's what we're cutting and then we almost never talked about the reasons for that cutting versus that cutting and that seemed strange to me that it was like we spend all this time talking about what people want and then we spend almost no time doing the prioritization and just relying on the manager's prioritization and just saying well we're out of time sure and that seemed strange to me. Just a quick one. I think it's also very important that to remember that based on the charter and the previous and the charge that we are advisory to the town manager and that's a critical piece. The other thing and Kathy I'm going to come in just second actually I was going to suggest if you wanted to join the conversation you should just go place somewhere there's a microphone because you've your participation as the council's member of the participating budgetary budgetary Budgeting Commission is actually going to get really important in a few minutes. The piece that we were talking about with the process that happened getting to the end of the year and Mandy was just saying I think it was real and which is why I thought that if we're going to recognize that there's a big chunk that needs to be taken out for something that we do the big chunks first to the extent that we can so that we know what we're really dealing with and then we parse out the amount of time that we have afterwards my thought would be and I need to work with Sean about this a little bit as to when we can have a meaningful conversation about the big projects and how that works because ultimately this really is in my mind if we're going to say the 10% of the budget should go to capital how are we using it and how are we using it effectively and how are we meeting the needs of all of our major components and if we don't start there that it's where does it fall in how does it affect the budget what happens if you know we get what we wish which is that must be a saying hey guys you're in for next year to start a process and then all of a sudden we have to start putting money aside and we've already run into the had this process moving along when that news comes out so I've been sort of trying to think that through and then the last piece is what is the role of participatory budgeting why was it put in there how does it relate to the citizen requests and ultimately how much of that 10% is intended to go for that purpose you know we got we got it it's there the council in the end I think has the ability to say no not go forward but we needed to be an informed discussion so I just I'm not asking anything bit of Kathy if you have anything to offer please do okay I have a few comments that just build off on everything I was hearing one I think starting earlier and going longer would be a great idea and because you could also segment the focus discussion on the current year bring in CPA at some point early just to know what they're looking at too that was the other one that hit us on how it's interactive but then the piece I thought when you were saying you didn't at the very end have a much of a discussion of the final decisions you didn't also have much of a discussion of what five years look like you know let alone what 10 looks like but what is five years look like and so five years discussion at the beginning and the end I think would be what you know that that's a time period just dedicated because the interactive tool that Sean has been building to say suppose we have these projects brings that picture that we're looking at with five years with five million whole six million whole seven you know just some focus on what that looks like would be a time that you could do it you know suppose we keep roads up at a million dollars how much is left for everything else and the answer is not a lot so I just think it would be good because if you had just one time period you're just looking at that where you get the next year under control and now you're looking at two years is not very long but to say the second year out doesn't look very good didn't feel satisfactory to me last time that's the ending point you know so it could be a beginning point and an ending point in the cycle so on participatory budget I haven't thought a lot about it because it's the appointments just happen so there's never been a meeting but when I looked at what other to the extent it exists in other cities or towns they do set aside a part of the capital budget and the ones that have done it have hundred million dollar capital budgets or fifty million dollars so they can carve out you know they can carve out something that looks reasonable rather than let's carve out ten thousand dollars or twenty you know I mean so what are you going to do in the interaction with the residents request is clear so I think that's a discussion and I again looking at the budgets and then going over my shoulder look at Paul would we ever consider ten point five percent you know we're aiming for ten percent but is there a three year period where we might need to go higher with the allocation because two buildings are in front of us so I just think that kind of conversation needs to have a home somewhere and it can have a home in finance which looks across everything and it can have a home here which has representatives of all three places yes so I think Kathy mentioned two really important points one is I think the value of this committee is the big picture and talking about the we spent the year because we we had a truncated period of time we had to get this year done and we all understood that but I think if this committee spent the bulk of its time on the bigger picture five year plan outlook and not as much time as this truck or that truck I think the town would be better served in terms of forcing that broader discussion because it's a discussion that's easy to to punt on which is what we sort of did this year because we had to get this year's budget done but that forcing us and disciplining ourselves to have that longer term five slash ten year outlook is really helpful is really important to the town the second thing is when we talk about the major capital projects I'm a little confused about where that's going to live I've always thought that was going to live with the finance committee of this council versus JCPC but we need to have one home for that pro that primary discussion to be to be had because we can't be going to two different committees to talk about the tool or whatever it is that we're going to be talking about we need one clarity on where that discussion is going to happen and what's the proper venue and what which one is it needs to be informed and which one is going to be the decision maker on it so I think that that broader picture is something that if we spent more time on that bigger picture and less time on individual department to request I think we'd be the town would be better served yeah you know I'm sorry some I think town manager just sort of better worded where I was going with with two hundred thousand here two hundred thousand here which is what's our goal for capital spending in these large chunks facilities this that and I know they vary every year but do we really need to hear be advising him it should be this truck or that truck versus we really need to make an investment of this much every year in vehicles because we have so many and they get used so much so I think he said sort of what I was going that fairly well but I'm sorry so let me ask a question to Mandy and then I'll go to my other point but so wouldn't for instance when we do CPA we say because it's by state law we say X percentage has to go to recreation or Y percentage has to go to this are we looking at something like that where we across all the budget there's a cat tally for vehicles that say okay that's you know 10% of our budget every year and it's just it's a way to analyze our budget I mean it could be and it could be differing categories it could be so much should be at schools every year so much should be at library so much should be at town which is a different calculation than so much should be vehicles so much should be that looks like but I it might better serve the town if we're the here's how much we need is a town to be investing every year in building maintenance to keep our buildings maintained in road maintenance it's sort of where we are with roads at a million dollars in addition to chapter 90 is that's what we need to be doing to keep them or get them caught up or maintained that's more of the big picture and if we're not there we we recognize as a town we're falling behind maybe that's where we should be looking at with jcpc of how much do we need to invest in the school budget every year capital wise to keep schools maintained and their capital needs met and then also allocations of how much do we need to invest in vehicles or in facilities or equipment in general I don't I don't know what likes that I don't know exactly what it looks like but maybe that can be the benefit of this committee is trying to figure that out I I I had another point though I wanted to go back and something Paul brought up Alex I guess perhaps this is starting to gel for me I mean I guess what I'm hearing is I mean it sounds like what ideally would happen is you know the finance committee is going to put the you know what the priorities are relative to the large capital projects which ideally would then be given to us as a committee so we understand the priorities and then what our task really is is to look at the five-year ten-year plan understanding okay once once these large capital projects are in place right here's our pot of money that we have once the roads are here's the pot that we have which then really does put us back to this truck that truck in a certain sense because that's really what we're doing is trying to figure out one long range how do we maintain sort of to Mandy's point how do we how much I guess sort of a multi faceted process right here's here's what the five years look like here the major projects and the priorities and then here's what we need to maintain schools libraries fire et cetera and then given the restricted amount of funds that discussion then becomes what's our priority with the limited funds relative to maintaining what we have and buying new I mean that's kind of what I'm hearing which is I mean good if that's I mean if that's what we all agree is what we're doing I don't think that's a bad thing I just think I think I'm just looking for clarity so I know what we're doing yeah go ahead so I think Paul you know we've had this debate a couple of times now about where do the large capital projects rest and ultimately they rest with the council because we have to vote the money or we have to decide to go out for an override on the other hand I I personally just and I think all of us do value the fact that there is a group that has a conversation that includes the library and the schools and so maybe one way to resolve that is that a certain number of meetings or the recognition than a certain at some point in time JCPC meets with finance and I just did a quick calculation it's 13 people it's no bigger than the council and that we at least look at this stuff together so that there is a voice at the table representing library and um and the and the schools rep but recognize that ultimately it's finances recommendation to the council I'm just I'm just trying to come up with a way that gives us the best of both worlds and yet doesn't cause lots more meetings yeah that was just trying to think through your 13 and so we're talking about the to expanded council committee finance committee yeah go ahead and there's something to help um so I really like what Mr. Backelman described as a as a high-level process for getting us to to stay focused on the five-year plan and the big picture as as our role is primarily and I what I think I I actually don't like the idea of setting targets because that leaves us vulnerable to a particular year where there's going to be significant demands from one department and then we're handcuffed and not able to to do that prioritization and it will make it difficult so I think you know thinking through how how we want to honor that that that interest without sort of codifying that into strict guidelines and and minimums like we do what we have with the CPA um but the one one thought and in terms of the process I love the idea of hearing a presentation upfront that sort of that puts the five-year perspective um on the table as well as the high level what does it look like and in execution in year one so the the upcoming fiscal year and what are the big highlights and features big expenditures in that one year and five-year plan then go through um have all of the material ready and and the presentation so that we have that detail up front and we can read and learn on our own and then use our meetings really to focus in on the the those big picture those big ticket items as well as any other questions that the committee might have and then focus our time at the end um with really doing that prioritization now that we've had our questions answered we understand the big picture in the long-term um perspective I think you know the the upfront and then wrap it up I can really help contextualize it for um especially new members on the committee yeah um stuff for a second uh there are a couple things of my own one is that um you sort of we're referring to this in a way this forms that we receive early in the process from each of the departments that here's a listing of our needs our priorities for each of the items and you know where it's you know it um here's in the description of what it is and what's need in itself is a valuable piece I wonder um always whether um the amount of time we spend essentially hearing an oral presentation of the forms as opposed to just getting the forms and having the forms well presented well thought out and um is a good use of our time um second thing that I wanted to just add is and it was referenced a little bit by Kathy I just wanted to touch on it a little bit further the relationship between CPA and this committee and the finance committee it was really not been well defined and I think we now have an opportunity is a new form of government to go back and rethink that um and um Kathy and I had a couple of conversations and um about playing uh the athletic fields um and um I assume it's okay for me to go with this um in you know we all know what's going on with the athletic fields I don't have to repeat that but there is the possibility of using some CPA funds to do some of the work for the athletic fields there are there is a limitation in this um CPA statute on one peculiar aspect which is you can't use it for anything that involves artificial turf but um otherwise it is a legitimate CPA expense and um our taxpayers who are paying taxes for something and uh where where how can we get that be involved in that discussion with CPA early enough that we can have it be a more dynamic piece of discussion um I think that's something that uh we need to be working on in the um process and the last thing I just wanted to say is there was a number of people have come to be over the past month and said asked essentially this question can we afford all these big projects? and my answer always comes out as yes but and um the but is but we have to make some decisions about how how big the big projects are and what the sequence is and um I think that is a discussion that um as we're getting to a point um where we are now where we may need to start having that discussion within a forum that involves um trustees and uh members of the school committee and I'm not sure that there is another forum that's logical for that Andy sorry no I I have one I want to address what Kathy said about 10.5% versus 10% and then I have a random CPA question that just popped into my mind when you said ball fields um I think this committee could be the place that an appropriate conversation or recommendation advisory could be on in order to if the FinCom saying here's our capital priorities and what that's going to take out of the capital budget and we're seeing the nitty gritty of capital needs on the smaller level and you know where this committee could say hey in order to not fall too far behind and in order to afford these projects our recommendation or advice to the town manager is to figure out a way to up that to 10.5 or 11 and I know that all that upping from 7 or wherever we started every year has been really hampering the operating side of the budget um but maybe this is the committee that that conversation or some sort of recommendation about how to handle the capital and what in the short term or five years that portion of the whole tax revenue needs to be of course that's just advice um but maybe this is the place to have that portion of the conversation or part of that conversation random CPA question many of those fields are technically owned by the regional school committee not all of them and the region has four towns in it but they're technically located in Amherst could CPA money from the other three towns actually be used for that? so we've got a very very sort of preliminary um I don't know if I call it opinion but sort of thought that possibly um because the other three towns all have CPA as well um but I think if that's the right way to go we have to get a much more detailed look at it but this the thing that Andy heard which is again can't be used for the turf piece so what exactly could be used for also needs more analysis and how much that would be? I I have another CPA question and that is we can't be the only town that would like to use artificial turf and CPA money is this something we should discuss with our legislature legislators? I mean I'm all for nature but there is a point where this money is taxpayers money and it needs to be used for the needs of the town and if turf artificial turf is what we need and I'm sure other towns with playing fields would like to consider the same thing I think that's probably worth it and the good thing is there are enough needs of the field of the fields that there's other things to use that CPA money for too you know if you've seen the fields there's other needs as well so hopefully there'll be enough other stuff if we can't figure out a legislative way there's enough other possible uses for that money. So the question of increasing from ten to ten and a half percent one is the consequences of doing that and which I think we all understand and the other is the budget coordinating group which is really I think was intended to look at that be the coordinated place for discussion and so we we do need to be thinking about that other group too but as we you know maybe because I've been on the finance committee and this committee and you know we heard some very impassioned statements from like the library director and the superintendent about what their concerns were and what limits came about because of what their operating budget increases were nobody asked them the additional question which is but what about your capital needs and how do you balance those but it is it is a difficult question and BCG is probably the place for that discussion needs to initially happen and then it needs to get back into a larger process whether it be the council finance go back to the finance committee and then to the council I don't know yet but it is there is that additional group that's an important group that is specified in the charter Alex so I just wanted to transition to a more processed granular level in terms of for next year and I know some of the things that we talked about and I don't think this year I think we have in past years but this year we didn't get a sort of starting spreadsheet which again gets to that whole beginning end process there was also conversation about us having a better understanding of funding sources so even though we get these sheets up front some department heads will say oh I might be able to get a grant here a grant there but I don't think it's consistent across the board that we always have an understanding of possible other funds that are available for projects that are presented to us and I think that would be helpful to have some sort of consistent format or expectation so we know what the possibilities are oh also I on the spreadsheet I know one of the things that is drives me insane every year is we have this great little spreadsheet that sets everything out and then the final presentation we get bundles things up together and so sort of tracking that becomes difficult because you have to wind up adding all the it to see and figure out it so I don't know if we could come up with something consistent from start to finish so that that end piece isn't so difficult to track down each line item and figure out where things were dropped or not drop that would be that would be great can you clarify that a little bit more I think I'm talking about but this is the example yeah so what happens is I believe IT is broken down by each department generally there's sort of like a bucket and then there's you know school blah blah but then when we get the final sheet with the town manager's recommendation that we approve they all get bundled up yeah so when so basically when you go to see when I go and check line item by line item it's one the order changes so you can't just go straight across and then two there are certain things I think IT is one of them where they get bundled back together and I mean maybe that's what the very end looks like but just for our purposes of discussion it just winds up being hard to sort of track everything so I think that what we need to do is sort of now figure out what our next steps are in planning a process for next year so it's a very good conversation lots of different threads two major things I think I heard that I don't think is necessarily resolved I think this group needs to decide whether it wants to be the prioritizing body or if it wants to be sort of the goal setting body and then the prioritizing happens before it gets here to some extent or not at this level because I think this board has done a lot of or this committee has done a lot of the prioritizing but I heard threads that maybe that's not the direction you want to go at least at the very micro level and then the other thing and maybe this is a council decision or town manager decision at some point is I think there needs to be a clarity around the sort of the decision making process for the big capital projects and what information is needed where that information comes from who makes the recommendations I think formalizing what that looks like at some point would provide a lot of clarity to us to find this committee to everybody and that could be like a first step once the budgets are done over the summer or something like that but I think having a again formalizing what that decision matrix or tree looks like and where the different committees fit into that would be good I totally agree especially on the second one and you know perhaps Paul and Sonia and you and myself and maybe Mandy Joe as vice president of the council or even a slightly larger group might sit and have that conversation and set up that decision tree but I think that would be very important I want to go back to your first point though and that is the goals versus the priorities I find it a whole lot easier if the town manager comes forward with here's what's needed and we come back with a conversation that sets up some priorities I maybe there is a goal in here but in fact the council early in the fall or in late in the fall does set up some guidelines if you will for the next year's budget and however we're going to do that this part of it has to be done in time for that to be considered when the council sets up those guidelines I just you know the of the clustering you know I thought also needed to come from the town manager you know can we I'll use vehicles because we already rolled to the million million million you know can we live with name the number of vehicles and then I'll figure out if every other year it's going to be more in this department or more in that department because when you go forward I've been trying to go forward modeling things that doesn't look very pretty going forward even if I say we postponed everything what if we do a half of them next year you know so just trying to think that way because you're better in if it's not schools library town but there's some amount of building we're going to have to do and we're not sure exactly it might this year it might be the high back because when you go back and you get the remainders you see how tight our budget is and I did this in a district one meeting with residents just walking them through the tough decisions and people got it right away when you said you know here's the total amount we did this and this and this is how much is left they understood what the town decisions were you know that they weren't going to ever be easy so it's just a useful way to look forward and then you still have the each year discussion about you know what's what and where is this year's allocation but you have some sense of going forward and I think that's it's not easy to do but it's somewhat easy to do when you do your five year spreadsheet yeah I think again I think that would if that's the process we use next year that the next five years looks very different so I think the way it is now departments put fill up the five years the ten years we don't go through and like sift through then say yeah not going to do that it's really used to kind of put out what so that people are thinking about what the different needs are but we don't sort of do a pre prioritization of that before it gets here if we did I think those next again those next five years would not look nearly as bad as they currently look because pretty much as everything's on there I'm glad this came up because one of the questions I had earlier was when we when departments do come forward I don't know the extent to which they are asked but Paul I'm looking to you to present if you will almost their five year plan in a more strategic way than maybe they have I just don't know but I wonder if this could in fact be part of the expectations back to the department heads that they really think strategically about their five next five years they want to do ten that's fine but five is probably a scope that is more reasonably dealt with and so that when we are looking at the spreadsheet it reflects that. Yeah so I think in the past it's been more of a top down approach what can we afford and what can we do versus a bottom up approach which is what the department heads want but I think that's right that we don't spend as much time with our individual department heads about their five year plan although they do come forward with their five year plans during the budget process. When we get the forms from the departments and they here's one for the particular item and they say how important it is there isn't a consistency of how that prioritization is done across departments so in the end it's very difficult because if the department's honest about it then it helps you at least you can read their priorities into it if everything is urgent and the world is going to die if we don't get it then you don't have any priorities out of it. So let's get back for a moment to the big projects because I think that they're all inevitably on our minds. I think that probably is something that is a shared process but the role of something that some way of making sure that all of the elected bodies have an ability to participate in the discussion at least and be informed about the discussion. I hope we don't lose that but we do need to move forward in a methodical method and I think that the other problem that we've all been having is that we don't control the process entirely as MSBA keeps reminding us and the Mass Board of Library Commissioners put us in line where they put us in line. Our ability to get land to start moving the town projects along is something that we relied on exterior forces but it's all going to come together at some point. We're going to have to then deal with it. That's where it's going to get tight so we need to have a process. I would suggest I guess that we try and see if we can get to an agreement on a smaller group or a way that we can take today's discussion and come up with a proposed process for the next year and then get discussion of it because we're certainly not going to get there by 10 o'clock. Yes. I just wanted to comment on the capital projects because as we saw in the school budget the repairs needed for Fort River and Wildwood going forward and trying to figure out what we can afford or what we can put off. We talked about renting something in case we get the building project and the same thing is true in the library. I mean if we are not funded we have huge capital expenditures that we've put off. So I think that it's really important whenever this discussion comes about capital projects, the issue going forward is if we get the funding then what happens? But if the town doesn't approve the funding there's huge expenses for the schools and for the library. So I think that's got to be part of the discussion of the capital projects. So process, getting back to the thing I think that we've come in with some broad stroke. One is that we need to make this more of a year-round process so that we get started earlier and that it not be something that's episodic. I think that we want to spread it out and get a little bit out of the weeds and be looking at a bigger picture view of what the capital plan is and leave it to professional staff to figure out how the weeds get worked out. We've recognized that the major projects need to be a part of it and the citizen participation. So we need to get that sequenced in a proper time that we can sort of deal with it. A point was made by the way on the citizen process that if we get a whole lot of requests that it can overwhelm the staff and that's not a healthy thing to happen. But frankly getting the application date a whole lot earlier will help us make the decision as to how to deal with the requests when they come in. So I think it would be helpful to just get it in early so that at least we know what we're dealing with as opposed to let it come later and get socked on. I had one thought on that too because it's something we use at the schools once and I think they might have used it in Cambridge as well. There's different programs out there where people could put out projects and then other people can vote on them or prioritize them or like them. And then if we ever get to a situation where again there's an overwhelming number of projects we could say well the top five most supported projects, the top ten most supported projects based on sort of the public's support for each of those proposals. It's just an idea, I know we've used it again for certain different types of feedback topics at the school, on the school side. They might have an application for this. If it ever gets to that point where there's a ton of citizen requests. Of course that's what the participatory budgeting commission. Yes, Mandy. I was going to say you just described Cambridge participatory budgeting process. I think that's where we might have got it then. One of the questions I had about the resident requests is what's the timeline for CPA requests because some of those come from residents. Many of them come from staff and nonprofits but some come from residents. Is there a way we could align those two dates so that sort of anything a resident can do in terms of capital requests is do at the same time? Maybe, I don't know whether aligning the application or the applying documents would work too because they're separate things. But is that something we could do that that might be early enough for us too? I just don't know what their timeline is. Yeah, that clearly could happen and that's I think the intent. What I've hear people saying is that we should probably surface the citizen request earlier in the fiscal year, the fiscal budget making process. So they can be funneled to the proper place to be funded. And so I just want to sort of capture some of the things I think you were saying so we can sort of, everybody, what I'm hearing is that A, we want to definitely start the process earlier clearly that we want to, and in starting the process earlier, the goal is to focus on the bigger picture, IE five year capital goals at the beginning, sort of what Kathy had said. And then integrate the JCPC and CPAC processes. So they align and flow into the decision making process for JCPC and also the citizen participation process as well. So those three, the JCPC, CPAC and citizen participation all integrate well into the CPAC process integrates well into the JCPC process, which integrates well into the budget setting process. When Andy said year round, it sort of gave me shivers because I don't think of this as a committee that meets year round, but it sort of has a beginning and then an end during a certain period of months that it has to work in. But I think one of the things might be is that staff can work on a proposed timeframe timeline with we integrate, we can map out the libraries process, we know what their process is, schools process. And then get all those timelines aligned and then submit those per consideration by the council or whoever you'd like to consider that. This is a timing question. So we have elections at the beginning of November. When do the school committee and library people get sworn in? I think if I remember the charter right January, the first Monday in January for all elected bodies. So no matter which way we take this on this coming year, we could have a change of membership halfway through. But I think that's the case for the school committee. Well, this year it will be the different case for the school committee because they start their budget process. We all started budget processes earlier. Okay. I'm not sure how that fit in. Okay. I just wanted to make sure we all understand that. Whoops. Mandy mentioned that in some towns March one is a goal for the capital side. Is that feasible? You know, if not match one. So if we were starting earlier, the capital piece of the next fiscal year could be decided on separate from the operating budget. Well, the charter is pretty explicit that it has to be submitted by May 1st. It doesn't say it has to be submitted on May 1st. But I mean, you know, I speak for myself, but I can't speak for future managers. The charter is clear that it should be submitted on May 1st. Sure. I know we got May 1st as the drop dead date. The question was if we tried to start earlier on capital, could we finish earlier? Could we finish by March 1st, March 15th? Well, to the point where we might have new members every January 1st? Every other. So if you go with that, then that means every other year you'd have roughly, if we met every Thursday, the way we do now, seven or eight meetings to do the process, right? You'd start January, hopefully the first Thursday. There's some holidays mixed in there. You could have January and February, basically, to do the whole capital planning process. So would seven or eight meetings be enough to do that every other year, potentially, if you have new members again on JCPC over the year? Does that make sense in terms of the time? I guess I'm not sure why it has to go with if membership changed every other year mid-process. I don't think it would be as long as some people continue. So if you were starting in September or October, I don't know what the start date is rather than telescoping it just to January. Sure. It's a logistical question. It's not a, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to have this problem regardless because it's just the way of the cycle because council elections are going to be happening every other year once it gets going. And council will be on that same schedule and you're going to have to start the budget process in a logical time of the year because it all works into a fiscal year. So every city must have this problem and must deal with it. And it's not much different from the reality of the town meetings that you develop a budget to present to a town meeting where for us a third of the members I weren't even elected until a few weeks before they were supposed to consider it. Yeah. Very few communities have a body like this. This is a unique body. Most of it is, you know, it just dates through the executive and then gets plopped in front of the council. I think this is a much healthier process because it does include the elected bodies from all three bodies. So and when I said year round, I wasn't thinking that there was going to be active meetings on a year round basis by any means, but I didn't want to have the it impossible for this group to meet if there was something significant. For example, on the major project discussion that there's no no forum to have it come together. That was all I was thinking. Just want to make you a little bit less. So so where is that major? Where do you want that major project discussion to happen here or at finance committee? That's kind of important, I think. Yeah, I think I'm not sure. Like, Be interested in other discussion on this. Ultimately, I think it is a council question. I think that ultimately a council question that should logically come through the council's finance committee, but to not have this forum where you have the opportunity for members of the library trustees and school committee to participate and give input early enough in the process that it'd be meaningful input would be a real loss. I think that's that's technically. So I'd like to go back to the idea that we have a joint meeting of finance and JCPC. And then the other thing that I want to go back to is an older tradition of the town. There was a council and that is at some point we might have to have a meeting of the three boards. That's around capital. I think that's when I first met Mr. Bachman was the four boards. Back then there was a separate for finance committee. That was a committee of town meeting and we don't have such a body anymore. It's basically the library, the schools and the town. I think the four boards meeting that was called the four boards meeting, which was finance committee select board school committee and board of library trustees happened every October, typically. And I think that still probably would be in the process expectation that that was three of you. Maybe that's a date we're working to. Yeah. But in the past that meeting has not really been a give and take. It's just been a presentation of the budget situation for the coming fiscal year. Right. That meeting, I'm sorry. That meeting was intended to say here's what the projected revenue looks like for the budget. Here's what we can expect. So as the three groups start to build their budgets, you say we think we can afford two percent or one and a half percent for increases. So it's just to present multiple years analysis of where revenue has been and things like that and what it might look like. And then from there, the finance committee in the select board at that time now would be the council I think would set sort of goals for what we should all set our budgets to, but what we can afford. I was referring to what was the three boards and one committee meeting that dealt strictly with capital. And it was back when Sandy Puller, the model, he was no longer with the town, was first presented in its rough early form. Okay. And I'm wondering if sometime along with that other meeting that you're talking about around the general operating budget that we need to have a similar time when all three boards meet about capital. About about the large capital projects, not the whole capital, just large capital. Okay, I'm sorry. That only happened that one time. And I mean, it's the standard process and it was got to be fairly recognized because. Miss O'Keefe was into routines that it always be the Thursday of Columbus Day now, Indigenous Peoples Week. And that it was a goal to have a specific time where an initial presentation would be made about financial projections for the next year. And then it went to the finance committee to set out what we're always termed preliminary guidelines with the understanding that the word preliminary has a meaning. And but it gave some initial guidance as to what the budget development should look like for each of the components that we're doing separate budgets. And the budget coordinating group was set up as being a forum for all of the boards to have to be able to come together to talk about needed adjustments in recognizing the preliminary was the word meant to be. And that was what the process historically has been. I don't think that there's a great degree of interest in substantially changing that as a construct. My details as far as the you know that that meeting that Linda's referring to was done one time to sort of help us to understand how we could afford all of the projects together. And that was a very specific meeting for a very specific purpose and might need to happen again. How about if I work maybe with you know see who who are the logical people. But if Sean has a little bit of time to work within Paul and what your thoughts are about it. To try and see if we can come up with a little bit more of a specific plan for the next year that flows out of this very valuable discussion and then send it out for comments. And I think that we have to be very careful as to how we get comments back so we don't trump on any open meeting law problem. But certainly we want to share it back and if we have to meet sometime for an organizational meeting for the next year. That is the beginning process but at least get us moving to try and encapsulate this and see if we can take the lessons that we've observed and bring them forward in a logical way that works for the next year. Alex if you have time and since your vice chair. And separately I guess Sonia Paul. Sean and I should meet and talk about kind of our timeline on and the process for the big capital developer develop a draft and take it to the council. So I have one other thing that I have to bring up in a second but is there anything else on today's major discussion. Sorry would you like that to come to the finance committee first that process and input on the big capital. Yes and we are going to talk about it the next finance committee meeting anyway that is the agenda for next week is so we were going to report back on today's discussion and talk about from the finance committees observations about capital in the process. And take that and then after that meeting develop this timeline. Yes. Can we just agree that the chair can approve the minutes that Anthony's provided and have them filed. So we don't have to go further. So move. So there's now a motion. Yeah. Didn't you already move and approve that weeks ago. Like two meetings ago. I think we did. I've already posted those minutes when you sent them back because I thought you already. Okay. I withdraw my motion. Thank you. You do have the entire month of March though that still needs to be approved. Yeah. Four meetings in March. Okay. Then you should work on that. Okay. Sure. I mean I'll talk to you about it at the end of the meeting after we adjourn. Anything else that people will erase as far as the meeting itself. Yes. So staying on the topic of minutes I thought it for because of the when you miss a meeting or otherwise that it would be helpful to post draft minutes. Because we're meeting so frequently and it was a lot of times we wouldn't even get them the couple days before. So coming into the next weekly meeting they have no idea what the conversation was the week before. Especially if we're not approving them at every single meeting like that. So it's hard to stay up on top of things. And I don't know from an open meeting law perspective if that's okay. I presume if the tape of the video is posted the discussion is out there in public. So is there a way to have a sort of written documentation to go along with that as well in a draft format. It's a matter of our ability to get minutes produced. The open meeting law does encourage let's use that word draft minutes. And certainly from the council side we're trying to move that process more quickly for ourselves. Anything else if not we adjourn. To adjourn. I'll second. So all favor. Okay. We have an agreement to adjourn at 10 minutes after 10.