 All right, I'm gonna go ahead and kick us off. So hi, this is Larry Eames again and welcome to the help. I'm an accidental government information librarian webinar series or help for short. This series is brought to you by the American Library Association's government documents round table. And thank you so much for coming. You will be muted throughout this webinar, but we encourage you to participate in chat. If you don't see that chat window, you can click on the chat icon at the bottom of your screen. We also encourage you to add questions via the Q and A function throughout today's session. We'll save time for questions at the end and we encourage you to submit them as you think of them. If there are any technical issues, Samantha Hagar is on hand to help. She has dropped her contact info in the chat. If there are any of those issues, you can feel free to use chat to be in touch with her or both of us as the hosts. And worst case scenario, do remember that this session is being recorded and you'll be able to access it on our YouTube channel later. So we have plans for upcoming webinars. The information on our November webinar is forthcoming and in December, we'll be hearing from Gwen Sinclair and Kappana Shim from the University of Hawaii on Hawaiian government documents. And if you have ideas for topics that you would like to hear about or present on, please do let me know. I'm gonna drop my email in the chat here and you can feel free to be in touch. If you wanna see more of our past webinars, you can find those on our YouTube channel. Please give us a follow if you're a YouTube user. And if you wanna hear more about upcoming webinars, I've also dropped a link to join our mailing list also in that chat. So today's webinar is a matter of life and death, the evolution of vital records and statistics in the US. And our speakers today are Elizabeth Hayden and Molly Goldston. Elizabeth Hayden is the reference services and data librarian at the government and heritage library part of the state library of North Carolina. She began working at the state library in 2008. She is passionate about helping people understand documents, connecting them to their past. Before coming to the state library, she worked in public, community college, academic and special libraries. Molly Goldston is a reference services assistant at the state library of North Carolina's government and heritage library. In this role, she assists patrons in accessing resources related to North Carolina history, government culture and genealogy. Prior to joining the government and heritage library, she worked for libraries in the Department of Defense and the Environmental Protection Agency, as well as two public libraries. She earned her masters in library and information science from North Carolina Central University and a bachelor's degree in political science and German studies from North Carolina State University. I am gonna go ahead and stop my screen share and turn off my camera to let Elizabeth and Molly take it away. I hope you all can see the PowerPoint. So, hi, my work at the state library of North Carolina involves helping people with data and genealogy, which utilizes both sides of the US census, numbers and names. Names are published after 72 years. It's important in family research to use documentation to pin down when and where a person was. And this includes not only the census, but also birth and death records. We're frequently contacted by people wanting 18th and 19th century birth and death records. They're shocked when they learned that North Carolina did not start keeping these records until October, 1913. And I began thinking about this and found that North Carolina vital records began roughly at the same time as many other states. Sorry, just one minute. So, I asked myself, why were we so late and why didn't we gather more data earlier and how did vital registration evolve into what it is today? Molly and I will walk you through some of the highlights of the progression of vital statistics in the United States and take you on a quick tour of the evolution of these documents. In the early years in both Europe and America, religious institutions gathered information on christening's marriages and deaths. This is the London bills of mortality which summarize birth and death information from church and parish records from the late 1500s through the 16 and 1700s. These were published throughout those years but this is a compilation that was published at 1759. And they were influential to American scientists. In the 18th century, there was also growing interest in botanical and zoological taxonomy and social analysis began based on data already in Europe. Initially, colonists were not interested in this kind of information because everybody knew their neighbors and their community but as the population increased towns grew in the cities also epidemics broke out and the public became more interested. Early American newspaper editors realized that life and death was of interest to the public and published numbers from church and town records. Virginia and Massachusetts were early to establish the registration of marriages, births and deaths in the 1630s but these often fell by the wayside and were not enforced. And one of the first regular American newspapers the Boston newsletter published charts of people buried in Boston. And these charts separated information by race which is a theme throughout the periods we are talking about. List of deaths and burials during epidemics were of particular interest. Very few newspapers included births. In the 1720s, Dr. Zabdiel Boylston's promoted the inoculation of smallpox and that was a very unpopular subject with the public. There are many debates from about inoculation from religious and moral grounds. And he hoped that death numbers would help convince people to be inoculated. Benjamin Franklin put together estimates for his newspaper and for his almanacs as well. In the period after the Revolutionary War stimulated humanitarian concern for public health. And by 1833, five cities had regular registration of birth and death and those were Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and New Orleans. This is an interesting jug that's in the National Museum of History. It's British made and was sold commercially to Americans to commemorate the first census in 1790. And the 1790 census was used, gathered basic statistics for taxation and for representation. And of course, the census was taken every 10 years afterwards. Population figures were needed to warn England not underestimate America. Jefferson needed numbers for convincing the French of the economic potential of American markets. Unfortunately, the numbers fell low in the census and no standard form was made until 1830 before that, the marshals who do the enumeration made their own forms. But there was early interest in the census doing much more than counting and age and sex breakdowns expanded early on for free people. So this title sums up the ideals of scientists and physicians during especially the early 19th century. It's outline of rational system of society founded on demonstrable facts, developing the first principles of the science of human nature. Being the only effectual remedy for the evils experienced by the population of the world the gradual adoption of which would tranquilize the present agitated state of society and relieve it from moral and physical evil by removing the causes which produced them. So there was a great influence of moral and religious beliefs in the forefront in the minds of the scientists. The shift in medicine and science focused on the betterment of humanity by correcting supposed moral failings, particularly the evils of liquor. And also they focused on unhealthy environments in which some people lived. Statistical studies done mainly focused on the differences between races and ethnic groups. There was a rise in fraternal organizations and social well-being. There was rapid populations and social welfare including the temperance movement and anti-slavery movements. There was rapid population and industrial growth. And there were scientific and medical debates over the standards of health and the futures of the nation. The industrial revolution brought made more urbanized areas in closer living conditions and spread of diseases. There was also more hazardous work conditions, dirtier air and sewage running in the streets of large cities. As the nation expanded, there were difficulties in counting particularly on the Western frontier. It was sparsely populated and any kind of registration was impossible to enforce. At this time European statistical studies greatly increased and there was many statistical societies and governmental statistical departments were founded. There was not an established mythology yet which is the classification of diseases. But in 1837, the Boston Medical Society persuaded city council to adopt a nomenclature and require death certificates. 1840 census was interesting. There were high expectations for it to show 50 years of progress at 1790. There was hope that Americans could look at it with pride and see how much that we have prospered in 50 years. It was very much like the 1930 census. They did expand to gather information on war pensioners, education, occupations and in their terms, idiocy, insanity, but also commerce and industry. So instead of being a happy publication, we could, Americans could look at with pride. In one author's view, it was a fiasco. First of all, it was hard to get an enumeration. It also didn't help that the marshals who were enumerating could also throw someone in jail for not paying their taxes. Enumerators in turn in the territories felt underpaid considering the distance they had to travel to gather information. And there were so many more questions to ask. People were suspicious of why the government wanted to know so much. And another thing is the forms had 74 columns, many with tiny print. The 1840 census was also on the hills of Armistad in 1839. In 1841, President Harrison died in office. And then after that, the new president, former vice president, Tyler, clashed with Congress over banknotes and there was a mass resignation of cabinet members. There was also a feud over who would print the census. There were two different publishers identified. And, but they finally published it in 1842. What happened was it showed an epidemic of insanity among the African-American population in the North. Eric Jarvis, a physician specializing in psychiatric disorders and also who was influenced the questionnaires of the census was the first to note the problems in the census publicly. He noticed the numbers for a lunatic. In particular, he noticed the numbers for lunatics asylum in Worcester, Massachusetts to have 133 African-American lunatics where he knew from his personal knowledge that the inmates were white. And there were many areas in the North where it showed this epic of insanity where no African-Americans lived. The new data showed the high rate of insanity in the North, one in every 162 African-Americans were insane or an idiot. And this is their terms, not mine. And in Maine, it was one out of 14 compared to Southern states which was one in every 1558. This was used and interpreted by pro-slavery groups to show that freedom was harmful to African-Americans. And this notion was further spurred on by an article in the Southern Literary Messenger causing a deeper battle between the anti-and pro-slavery group which lasted decades. These statistics were also used to make Texas a slave state in 1845. But Jarvis was able to prove that the enumerators and those who tabulated the information got the columns mixed up. And if you look at this slide, you can see this area at the top. Those are the two columns, these are two sets of columns that are side by side for the white population and insanity and the African-American population. And then down at the bottom where it's highlighted those are the tabulations. And so even though he was able to prove the information was tabulated the wrong way, all efforts to retabulate and republish were rebuffed by Congress. But 1840 census was important because it made people question the sanctity of statistics but it also showed that statistics can lie. In 1850 there were news schedules one of which was the mortality schedule. And this collected information about people who died within the calendar year before the census was taken. The information was provided by a physician. It included the name, age, sex, race, cause of death and the number of days in a physician's care. In the cell enslaved people were named and this provided rare documentation for genealogies researching enslaved people. There were mortality census in 1850 and 60 and 70 and they fell short as much as 40%. There was also an 1880 mortality schedule and in some states in 1885, many physicians felt inconvenienced by the record keeping and felt that it just got in the way of their job and they were not convinced. They did not buy into the tabulating. And even as late as 1903 the census was still trying to get physicians to push, they were trying to get a standard cause of death. And this 1903 chunk out of this publication, published by the Census Bureau for Physicians is trying to encourage physicians not putting that people died of old age or overwork but being more specific about a cause of death. And this was a constant battle. In 1850 and 1860 there were slave schedules and there were plans to add more questions to these schedules about the individuals who were enslaved. Southern Democrats did not want additional schedule additional questions about the institution of slavery. It was hoped that the new schedule would show name, age, sex, place of birth and the number of children whether alive or dead. And Congressman Andrew Butler, South Carolina and William King of Alabama successfully pushed to have these questions removed. They argued that it would be too many questions for the enumerator and deter from an accurate count. There's much division and argument and in the end Congress bowed to the protest slavery sentiments. And so the conflicts between the North and South deepened, businesses, associations, reformers all wanted different types of statistical data. There was also a rise in the insurance companies in the 19th century. And they wanted life expectancy figures. The temperance movement wanted numbers to show the number of children and mothers who suffered from drunken fathers. But social reformers and scientists still hoped for reform and saw great potential in the US census. So these are final statements. These are reports made to the adjunct general's office and it shows information for soldiers who died in service from 1862 to 1899. This is a precursor to the death certificate. They gave personal information such as the place date and calls of death and sometimes it listed birthplace and next to Ken and physical description. And this one is for an African American named William Bacchus from North Carolina. It shows that he was five, seven and a half and it shows his complexion. It tells that he was killed in action with hostile Indians in Hot Springs, Texas on October 28th, 1880. And it's a, it is what a lot of people hoped would be in place for the entire nation. The 1850 to 1900 years saw many changes in the US census and then in the other schedules too. But this is a population schedule. For the first time in 1850, the names of all three people are recorded. That includes children and everyone other than the head of household. It also shows that the population of everyone other than the head of household. It also asked for a place of birth and whether or not somebody marriage within the year. It on 1870 was significant because formerly enslaved people appeared by name for the very first time. They also began asking where parents were born if they were, if the parents were foreign born. 1880 added marital status. There was a further breakdown of disability and that nativity questions expanded greatly. 1890 had more expansion. There were questions about naturalization, the ability to speak English, the disability terms such as idiocy disappeared and electronic machine tabulation made the tabulation much faster. And in 1900, the same questions remained about nativity in English and these other former questions. But they also asked a number of children both who survived and did not and the number of years married. Also during this time period, it's a background to this time period. In 1859, the origin of species was published. The American Public Health Association was founded and health reformers were hungry for vital statistics. And in 1879, the American Public Health Association had a committee on vital statistics headed by John Shaw Billings and they published weekly vital statistic numbers and that were reported from 24 cities. The disadvantage of this was no forms were alike and there was still no classification. But this began to improve and eventually mortality reports came from 90 cities. During this time, Census Bureau created a uniform death certificate and pushed it often to no avail. In 1872, the American Public Health Association was established. In 1876 and 77, Robert Koch of Germany and Louis Pasteur made great advances in bacteriology and diseases. And so we began to view disease very differently. I'll say the first statistical abstract was published in 1878 and in 1880s, Jim Crow laws began to pass in states. Finally, by 1902, which was a couple of years after this, the US Census Bureau becomes permanent. But by the 1880s and 90s, medicine had shifted from tackling moral issues into proving help through germ theory. By 1880, many Americans were working in manufacturing, mining, trade, transportation or services. There were epidemics of cholera and yellow fever outbreaks. There were concerns about immigrants. One concern was about the birth rate of the white population being overtaken by the influx of immigrants. There is xenophobia, racism in the statistical studies because they focused on differences between race and ethnicity. But the public health movement did start and any kind of reform were faced with the problems of Western expansion, the Civil War, immigration, migration and often Congress. And it's interesting that all during this time from early on as a nation, we were able to keep very detailed real estate transactions. We also registered pedigree horses, dogs and cows and even cats, but that was long before people. Can you advance the slide, Beth? Okay, so Beth provided some historical context for us for what was occurring in society up until the mid 1800s and 1900s that helped pave the way for birth and death certificates, particularly movements to enumerate the population through the federal census, as well as developments in the area of medicine and public health. But vital records were not used only for health reasons. They are also used for legal documentation. And another movement that was going on during this time concurrently with these other initiatives was that of child labor reform. So the importance of age as a social category began to emerge following the Civil War. And even until the early 20th century, child labor was commonly used in textile mills and other industries. And the concept of childhood as a stage of life was developed alongside other institutions like the military, education and judicial systems who started to use age as a factor. But despite efforts to regulate labor by age, there was little enforcement as children's ages were difficult to determine without official documentation. And oftentimes parents were complicit in fabricating the ages of their children so that they could also work and contribute to the family. So advocates for birth records and birth certificates argued that they were one way to enforce child labor laws that protected children from entering the workforce in what were often dangerous and unhealthy conditions at such a young age. So this brings us into the 20th century. So in addition to birth records being used as legal documentation to protect children, they were also necessary for adults in order to receive benefits from social security and other social initiatives that were created in the 1930s through President Roosevelt's New Deal program. Birth certificates were also the official proof of citizenship for all defense industry workers during the Second World War. And another outcome of World War II was the desire to create a better national system for collecting this information to create valuable statistics. So federal functions and vital statistics were officially granted in 1944 with the Public Health Act which gave legislative authority for the federal government to collect vital statistics which also helped create the national office of vital statistics. Some of the challenges that the enumerators of the federal census faced, vital record keepers also faced. So Beth touched on a couple of these. So I won't go into too much detail, but another example of a challenge that was going on was controversy even among the medical experts during this time. So in one group you have the sanitary reformers and they believe the effects of industrialization and urbanization led to increased deaths and illnesses and they called for policies to improve water, sanitation and overall hygiene. They were big advocates for vital records as they used the statistics from the information to educate the public and policymakers on what was going on. But in another group you had who was called the Quarantineers and they argue that the diseases could be cured from self-isolation alone and were spread from animals and incoming ships from other countries. And while they weren't necessarily opposed to vital records, they did not help contribute to the progress of the vital records movement. You see to the right, that's an article published in 1913 by Cressy Wilbur who was a prominent statistician during this time. And he argued that one of the greatest challenges to collecting vital statistics nationally was the lack of consistency and uniformity. Every state and every region used a different form and different collection methods. Everyone was trained differently on how to collect those information. And like Beth said, the momentum behind the vital records movement wane to the Civil War as the focus of the country and the resources focused on the war. But one outcome, the war did end up increasing interest in public hygiene as soldiers died not only from fighting but from disease as well. So knowing which state a year has records on file is important for researchers who are studying genealogy, public health, history, sociology and more. These records can provide a snapshot of what was occurring in an area at a specific time in history. As you heard in the beginning, North Carolina started in 1913 but it varies from state to state. The table on the left hand side comes from the National Center for Health Statistics and it shows how the implementation of vital record keeping varied. For example, Massachusetts started registering deaths and births in 1841 while Illinois didn't start until 1916. I keep in mind these states refer to the records, statewide records that are on file for the entire area. So towns and counties in certain states may have kept records far earlier. And as we know, some of the colonies like Massachusetts, they did have some legislation early on in the 1600s for collecting these records by the government. The most recent addition to this list is the US territory, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands in 1946. In the second column, you have a second set of dates and these dates refer to what's called the registration area which was a concept also developed by John Shaw Billings in the 1880s. And this was proposed as a solution to collecting data on a national level. So the registration area was composed of cities and states where vital registration systems were already in place. So those years represent the gradual increase of states being added to the national level. And today, the legal authority to record birth deaths and other vital records which can include marriage and divorce records resides within 57 jurisdictions. So that includes all 50 states, two cities, Washington DC and New York City and five US territories. To counter what Chrissy Wilbur argued was one of the most serious problems facing this movement which was a lack of uniformity and consistency. A national standard certificate form for each vital event was developed for adoption by the states. So that eliminated a lot of the confusion when different regions would produce their own forms. There was also the Model State Vital Statistics Act and regulations document which was first created in the 1950s and has since been revised a few times and that is available for states to use and to adopt into their own state general statutes in order to promote and maintain nationwide uniformity in the system of vital statistics. So now that all states and territories are participating this kind of brings us to the present and we can dive into how it's organized because it's really an all hands on deck system that requires coordination and cooperation between healthcare facilities and all levels of government. Although much of the responsibility ultimately lies with the state, all levels play a role and contribute to the success of this system. So vital records and reports originate with private citizens. So these are the people who are giving birth, being born, family members, of folks who have passed away but it's up to the healthcare attendants, physicians, midwives, funeral directors, they are legally responsible to document, file and submit the birth and death certificates to a local office. So these are defined in state laws. So it could be a little different from state to state but again, most states kind of adhere to that model state act. So they're all pretty similar in the statutes. There are penalties for non-compliance also provided by the statute but the problem of enforcement and people not participating is not as much an issue today as it was early on. So local offices, this could be county, it could be a town or a city. Again, it depends on the state but they are responsible for collecting the records and ensuring that birth and death certificates are complete before sending them to the state. The state division of vital statistics offices which are usually part of the Health and Human Services agency or department, they're responsible for developing and maintaining state and local procedures, enforcing, ensuring the law is enforced and producing state level vital statistics available for researchers and policymakers and the public. And the state office is the final stop before the data is submitted to the federal government. So any last clarifications or corrections that need to be made should really be done at the state level. So once they get to the federal government, they go to the National Center for Health Statistics which was formally the National Office of Vital Statistics that was developed in the 1940s and they are part of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention. And they're the federal component that receives copies of all the certificates and they're legally mandated to collect the vital statistics from the states annually. They also compile and analyze information and publish reports that can inform healthcare decision-making, they can identify resource needs in different parts of the country. Some key health indicators produced by the national system and even the state systems include pregnancy and infant outcomes, risk factors for adverse pregnancy outcomes, life expectancy and leading causes of death among others. Another key player at the federal level is the National Association for Public Health Statistics and Information Systems. And they're actually a national nonprofit that work on behalf of the states and they really ensure a smooth flow of records between the state and the federal agency. They also advocate on behalf of the public and private individuals to ensure that those records privacy rights are protected. There's obviously a lot of publicly identifying information in those records. So they work on behalf of the public as well. So as we can see, the vital records movement took many years, even centuries if you go back to the colonies and for them in the United States, plus the ongoing efforts of scientists, politicians, statisticians and more to develop a modern streamlined process for documenting these significant life events. They can be used as legal documentation, proof of citizenship, they can be used in court cases to prove family ties and for estate records. They can be used by genealogists for historical research and they're often mostly used for health researchers as well to identify public health needs. Today's statistics continue to offer value as they address ongoing and emerging health crises such as COVID-19 and the drug overdose epidemic in the United States. Despite overcoming many of the historical challenges, the system needs continual refinement as new technology and data collection methods are developed. Even today, vital records are not always filled out completely or accurately, which can lead to poor quality data. And previously studies have shown that this occurs, the poor quality data can often occur in populations in lower socioeconomic status. So that's still something that needs to be worked on among these groups. The National Center for Health Statistics Division of Vital Statistics is undergoing efforts to modernize the current system. There's technologies such as automated coding system and platforms that integrate with electronic health records that will help increase the speed of data compilation and improve the ability to disseminate the data in a timely manner, excuse me. They also offer interactive online data access tools, which is great for researchers, downloadable public use data files and a data visualization gallery. The map on the right is an example of something that comes from their website and that's a screenshot, but it's very interactive. If you go in, you can filter, you know, this particular set of data by state or county, you can create your own tables with different sets of data as well. And lastly, although they have become kind of the norm in the United States, birth and death certificates and other parts of the world, there are still countries that do not have comprehensive registration systems in place. According to UNICEF, the United Nations Children's Fund, one in four children under the age of five do not officially exist. So of course these children exist, but that means they do not have any type of official birth record or birth certificate. And that statement just demonstrates how valuable vital records are in today's society. And we thought it would also be interesting for those who are interested in international government documents, because many countries collect this information as well. But without this type of birth certificate, it can be difficult to protect the rights of children and their access to universal social services. So we just provided a really quick overview. I know that was a lot of information and a lot of dates and history and facts. But thank you so much for joining us. And I'll pass it back to Larry to see if we have any questions or anything to add. Thank you both so much. I really appreciate that. I definitely was thinking back to some of my own genealogical research that I've done with North Carolina records and how stymied I got. So the chat and Q&A are both open for questions, but I do kind of want to kick us off with maybe one of my own, which is what tips do you have for people who are starting out with vital records and genealogical research? So somebody who's kind of coming to you and saying, I'm trying to do a family history and that doesn't really have anything more than that in the research inquiry. What kind of tips do you have for someone like that or for a librarian who might encounter someone like that? Beth, did you want to say something? So the first thing we do is ask if the person knows of, well, using the US census is usually the first step because it puts a person in a place and time and that's absolutely the first step. And if they lived between 1790 and 1940 because 1940 is the last census to come out, 1950 will come out April 1st, 2022. And if they are in the 20th century and looking for birth and death records, birth certificates are not public information, but birth records, there are some that are accessible. So those are actually the first steps I recommend. Yeah, and places to look for those. So some of those records or indexes of those records could be on databases like Ancestry. But if you do have enough information, you can contact like the County Register of Deeds. And so that's why it's important to know kind of all the levels of government that go into it and all the different dates because it could be at the state archives, it could be at the county level if it was before the official statewide registration date. So you got to look a few different places to find that out. Another thing is if you, especially before the 20th century, it's essential to know, to have an idea of what the laws of the state were that govern the registration. Yeah, I think that's really accurate. I really appreciate how you both tied the different levels of government together in this presentation. And we're getting some comments in the chat about what an excellent presentation it was. Thank you. Not seeing any questions come in yet, but I did prepare a few of my own, of course, as we were going along. One of the things that I kind of drew on as a theme throughout your presentation was the fact that this data is not a political, people are involved in creating data, therefore people's opinions get into data. What tips do you have for people who sort of need to convey that message to users of these kinds of data? The most difficult thing, well, for genealogy is to research African-American ancestry because of the institution of slavery where African-Americans have been oppressed in record keeping. And especially going back before 1870, 1870, the 1870 census is very, very difficult. And so it's very important for people to know about those stumbling blocks. And that's definitely due to views of race. And I think with more of the modern data, I think I mentioned briefly, there have been studies where different races and different populations of socioeconomic status, that data is not always accurate. And some of the reasoning behind that, some of the healthcare, it boils down to different, like you said, people, they may not have had the same training as other areas or other populations. And so there's still the lack of consistency that was prominent early on, that lack of consistency, that's still kind of an issue today. So yeah, I mean, just keeping that in mind, I think for people who are researching that, they do the best to have the best quality data, but take it with a grain of salt or looking at the historical context of the time as well. Right on, yeah, thank you. Not, I'm not seeing any questions that you all were so comprehensive, like I super get that. And maybe I'll close with my last question, which is, so like we love the census, we know about the census, we love it. What's your favorite like sleeper source for vital statistics that maybe people wouldn't think of immediately? My favorite source are cohabitation bonds. And in the South, it was the union of a man and woman and enslaved people that was not recognized by law, but after the civil war, they were required to register their marriage and they provide a great deal of information. Another thing I love are bastard bonds. I don't know if you've heard of this, but there was a time in which it was quite obvious if a woman was pregnant and not married and she was required to name a name. So that that child would not become a burden to the community. And in the gentleman she named was required to put up some money for the care of that child. And I think those are fascinating. I think that took some of my favorite too, but Bible records, that's also another place to look if there wasn't a traditional birth certificate or death certificate available, can be another place. Awesome, thank you so much. I did not know about bastard bonds. That's also just like such a great name for a source. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for presenting today and thank you all attendees for joining. I'm gonna drop our links in the chat again. So to join our mailing list, check out our webpage and check out our YouTube page with all of those past webinars. And don't forget to like and subscribe, of course, as you start to poke around in those. So yeah, thank you all so much for joining us and we will see you in November for our next webinar. Details forthcoming. Thank you. Thank you.