 Okay, I'm Calling the finance committee meeting to order on December 17 2019 at 2 40 p.m. On the snowy day, and I want to thank The members of the committee we have four council members which constitutes a quorum and two of the three Resident members and I appreciate everybody being here under the weather conditions we have but I'm also pleased that we don't have to schedule another meeting until next year and that we can now Go and enjoy the holidays also as I had informed everybody in the committee by email and pleased that we council acted favorably on a number of Issues and shallowness now we have five member all five members from the council president so Again, thank you all for being here We don't have to deal with the guidelines because the guidelines were proved without any changes and President will be sending them to the Recipients including the people who are to get copies. So that's all done and Kendrick Park CPA proposal order was approved and the Hickory Ridge Proposal was also approved. So We have several things that are out of the way. There are three things that I want to concentrate on And they're gonna take I think the most significant piece of time and I want to try and do this by four o'clock so that we can all get out of here and Have plenty of daylight to get where we need to go but a process to complete our work on assessing the affordable housing priorities policy The percent for art by-law and the committee charge which we have the responsibilities or request from the GOL committee to get back to them with our comments about the committee charge So those are the three major items Kathy worked on a Jumping down for a second meeting schedule for 2020 Kathy has a proposed Schedule that she was going to send to all members of the committee that takes us Through what period? It takes us up to June and everyone should have it. I forwarded it by email What I did is went through Council meetings the Monday meetings and picked the Tuesday after each of those meetings and then as people had been alerted earlier By Andy when we get to May We are at least anticipating we would be meeting weekly as often as twice a week. So I didn't give specific May dates Andy other than to put May in as to when last year my memory is we met on Tuesday and Thursday But I think we were also flexible Depending on because departments were coming in so sometimes we didn't always do it in 2 30 in the afternoon Sometimes we did it another time slot. So may is Not pegged specifically to council meetings But everyone did everyone receive it? It was just sent literally as we were sitting here so Let me just say a couple things on it One of its most important thing is to get the first three or four meetings In everybody's calendar and make sure that they're okay, and we can always come back and talk about the remainder of the dates In a later date, so let me just tell you that they're January 7 and 28 February 11 and 25th and so I Guess the most immediate question is whether those four dates are problems for anyone and Yes, I'm gonna be in China on Jan 7th On which date Jan 7th, I'll be back on the 14th You do a lot of good traveling Wrecking up those miles I guess That too Okay, so Yeah, the there's one of the April dates that's listed. I will not be in town, but We don't even know who's going to be chair of the committee at that point and I Don't think it's I think we can postpone discussion of that. So let's go on to the things that are most Vital to talk about today I Do want to make sure that within the next 30 minutes that we get back to The committee charge because I want to make sure that Sonya is here for the discussion of the committee charge Since we have the chair of the hearts Commission here When I Is it okay if we talk about percent for art for a few minutes and I also want Sonya to be here for that discussion So those the those are the ones we need her most for I think So Kathy or can you give us the introduction to launch us and then we'll talk about the question of what are the Financial implications and how to measure what information we need in order to provide a report Thanks, Andy. I was chair of the ad hoc committee that was asked to take a look at the original draft bylaw that town meeting had endorsed and Revised it pending discussions both Some issues that it had run into in the Massachusetts Legislature of carryover funds that there wasn't a clear way to do that and we were a committee of five people three from the council and two from the arts Commission and bill worked closely with me and actually he Did all the scribing as we went through and agreed on changes and were reformatting and So what what I think you've got copies of the original bylaw as it was written and then the revision And a report from our committee that describes the major changes that we made That weren't just editing or Streamlining wording so I think I'll just highlight a few of those And then open it for questions or comments and bill should feel free to add something I miss We we actually had the benefit of our bylaws Committee that's been looking at all the town by losses but have been going through our bylaws and kind of formatting them to look a particular way, so we tried to get as close as we could to How those were formatted and set up so so I'm just going to go through the major changes in each of the key sections The purpose has remained the same as it was written But we added economic as well as cultural Vitility to its purpose on why we're would we think it makes sense to present be investing in art And we have a lot of studies that have shown that that is a key issue of bringing people into town of Building a sense of community, so it's not just that it's beautiful, but it also enhances the life livelihood of the town So we basically just added the words economic vitality to it the key Significant substantive changes we change the threshold to a million dollars and what So before a project would be considered as eligible For the percent for art being added to it It has to be at least a million dollars of new construction And this means the significant thing about that is that these would generally be financed with debt So it would go out over time and the project would be integrated with the construction project itself So we're part of its design either attached to order in it And so we would pay it be paying off the point five percent over time rather than in one chunk And this avoids needing to accumulate funds, you know If we had smaller pieces that each one was not enough to do anything Significant with art and then we'd pull them and it can and it can attach the money Directly to the project in definitions We mainly were cleaning up definitions But we tried to make it clear and we just have to double check with Sonya and then with Paul that we did this that When we're talking about what the percent gets applied to in terms of money It's our general fund money. So if a project was half funded by grants It would just be the general fund share or if it was in one of our special funds It wouldn't apply. So it is just the general fund part that the town would be doing it We made it clear The Charter makes the town manager the appointing authority for any multi-body body This the art jury was originally listed as being appointed by the art commission So we changed the appointing authority to the town manager and we actually thought that was a really good idea Because it we want this to be endorsed by the town and be part of the larger town So on funding as I mentioned at the start by raising the threshold to a million dollars The funding would mainly Would only actually be coming out of bonds and we eliminated the wording that said we're going to earmark some of this money for Maintenance because that would have had to be part of an ongoing operating budget So we're assuming to the extent the project itself is maintained this would be maintained and The commission would be paying attention to not trying to commission art that was going to fall apart right away Or you know would pay attention to likely maintenance costs. We also have all for better ways of summarizing it an escape clause that if for some reason we're in a crisis we're in a major Crunch we allow for the town council to either eliminated on a project by project basis or lower the threshold from the point five percent and There's no more references to special funds because we don't have to accumulate them We also make it clear in Responsibilities under the art commission section that the art commission will be working closely Both with the overall town there's a plan for the whole town on art It's not just one off each time and it would be involving public discussions But then when the construction project is underway before it's underway working closely to avoid any delay Related to the art projects that if it can't get funded up in time. We can't pick it It could just be cancelled because we wouldn't want the project to delay the larger construction project And this was raised by a couple of the reviewers of the original So we want the timing to work and it clarifies that throughout the intention would be that the art Commission would be working closely with the town manager So I think those are the summary of the key changes we made almost everything was trying to rearrange words if a paragraph was six sentences long and we found some Redundant wording. We just trimmed it down unless it was substantive. So I'm gonna stop there Bill And is there anything else you think we should I missed and this was unanimous In terms of both the specific changes in the final draft And I I want to know that the former chair of the public art commission who was the author of the original by-law Set with us throughout as a member of the public But we paid attention to any concerns he might have had and he was pleased with this as an outcome You know, so he didn't come away with feeling like his You know, I think I've been an author of some things you kind of watch some interior your work Apart and then you don't like the result But I think he looked he was pleased with the result and it was a very a productive and Sonia set with us throughout and Was extremely helpful on saying you just can't do that or if you want to do it this way it can only be done in a Certain way, so we we did want to make sure we addressed the funding side since that was the thing that Stole that last time that we couldn't really set up funds in the way. We were envisioning it wouldn't work So I am that is the summary of what you have before you So questions Go ahead Thank you for that work. I think I think you summed up your changes really well I'm very easy to understand My two questions are one maintenance. I think it's a big assumption To include the maintenance of the art in the building of building maintenance. I'm just throwing that out there and then two I think the funding is a huge portion of this and I'm just curious if we're not in An economic crunch right now with three major building projects What would constitute an economic crunch such that? It might be proposed to town council to lower the percentage for art I just do a Bounce on the second and I think you know it may be a next meeting date Sonia could show us but if you if you Assume a 20 year or a 30 year debt and you're putting 0.5% on 10 million or on 30 million and then spreading it across households it it amounts to a Dollars rather than multiple dollars per year So that's the issue we were looking at is trying because the point five is so low and spreading it out and the interest rates are low Right now, so I think the the notion with these this investment You might want to choose wisely But it's not adding very much to it and it could potentially be done even within The overall construction project if the design said one of the things we want to have is this apps with a fountain in it or a seating area or or a statue as you're coming in But but yes, it clearly is money But on 30 million dollars It would not be adding that much on an annual basis in terms of taking tax dollars away from other projects So so that I think will always be an issue. I mean it isn't it isn't a net zero Yeah, I guess my I understand what you're saying I guess my point is if we're asking people at some point to do override and People are already feeling an economic crunch personally that's That's an issue And I understand that it's a small amount. It's over a long period of time I'm just I'm just wondering like is it interest rates that like if this was It was we're approaching a higher interest rate or I mean, I just would like to know and I think people would be interested in that I Do know from the experience that the state went through because they had a similar bylaw When they hit bad economy and had to go into rainy day funds is when they got rid of it the issue that I think you're raising About You know hitting people with four new capital investments, whether they be construction renovation or major major repairs The reality is this is only on the construction It it the way it's written it does Leave it quite vague and leaves it to the town council to decide That is good and bad, you know, it's like I can drive a truck through this At the same time You know, I don't think that any of us want to adopt a bylaw That basically we don't intend to follow I think that it's the idea is to adopt a bylaw we think is responsible and Follow so let me just Preface any and say I think the I think the committee did a terrific job Being very familiar with the earlier Bylaw which had one major piece that was totally unworkable From a financial standpoint and this is basically Brought it into a place where it's workable. We can understand this bylaw and it also gives us an opportunity If we feel we are not in sound financial times For us to say Yes, we're gonna go ahead and build building acts but building acts Which by the way is Not particularly itself a very artful looking building Because those kinds of buildings aren't very artful To save money, we're not gonna do art there. Okay, we're it's often a field. It's behind trees it's not a place that many people are gonna go to and You know, it's a way to cut down on this and if we cut down on this We might be able to do something else in that building that would benefit more people like having a Community room so I'm feeling like this bylaw the way it is presently presented to us Gives us those points of flexibility now. Am I wrong? Actually, there's one piece that I wanted to add to to respond to that as a member of the ad hoc committee We put in a provision that's in the definitions that It only applies to publicly accessible buildings and that was sort of if you're building a building that nobody from the public is going to be visiting and it's in the middle of Isolated place that nobody is going to see that that's not publicly accessible that if the exterior of the building is People are going to drive by frequently That's publicly accessible. It's a building that people are going to go to and attend. That's publicly accessible But if we had built the DPW building in the location that was talked about in the middle of a field That was far from any street That may not have fit that definition So we did add that piece in there the reason that I was pleased with the idea of Having a provision in there For the council to be able to make an exception is just to create that possibility If it was necessary, but I don't and didn't anticipate that it ever would be necessary But what I did not want to see happen is to put the council in a position of having to decide We can't afford to do it. So we have to repeal the bylaw so that by Creating a process that is less than repeal We preserve the bylaw if we ever get into the financial bind Not that I think given the amounts that it's likely to happen The one thing that I did want to touch base on getting back to Sonia's point Sonia had raised is that My understanding that in order to be able to do this is a bond Is a part of the overall project for which you're submitting funding as she explained it And I'm not I'm looking at you so that you I don't put words in your mouth that you don't want to own Is that It has to be done as an overall part of the construction project And if it's not done this in the overall part of the construction project It is for example something that's going to be done separately and later that That may not be permissible That's correct and So I just wanted to make sure that that understanding was just out there so that we'd get there I know that the prior finance committee had talked about the prior bylaw and because Mary Lou Had explained that in a prior one of our previous meetings And what she said was is that the position of the previous finance committee was That it should not be done from that It should just be built in as part of the ongoing capital budgets And That obviously is always an alternative I think that the reason that we didn't put in it is ad hoc committee and I'll turn this back to Kathy if I don't to to supplement is that when you get to the costing out it's going to be Let that that's could be a Significant expenditure in a single year from the capital fund and it was contrary to the idea of trying to spread out the cost so that It would not have a significant effect on any single year Yeah, shall me I Really really liked the way you all changed it. So thank you very much and I think adding to what I'm hearing there I was wondering if there's a way to capture the indirect indirect benefits that we Get from the from this kind of art. Maybe more people visiting or tourism or Because I was reading this and I just want to read this line because I thought it was so impactful Maybe I'm speaking I am sort of speaking to the choir here, but preaching to the choir Whatever anyways, so I just wanted to read the statement which says it's by Americans for the arts public art network And they say public art stimulates learning and thought about art in society about our interconnected lives and about the social Sphere as a whole and I think we can really bring a sense of community who we are Values when we don't just build art. That's beautiful But we do it in a meaningful way that reflects and is a way of us coming together. In fact there's something called Open what is it? Open living rooms that you can have events around these pieces of art where people can sort of connect and come together and You know, so it's really about revitalizing our Community and creating that shared sense of who we are I think it's a very powerful thing and given that it's that we all made it. It's spread over 30 years It comes to $5,000 per year I think unless we're in, you know, of course we can assess project to project But I think it's a really valuable addition to our town And if the commission could create a database of the art that's been created Then once we have enough we can maybe create brochures and put them up on our website for even tourism And so for like people to come in and make it a central part of our town Well, we do have a lovely art pamphlet right now, which is on the website I think it's outdoor art and I spoke to somebody who'd been on that committee and She told me that the DPW had in fact done maintenance of it and enjoyed doing the maintenance and in fact had Helped position rocks and boulders so that that's some of the maintenance that could happen I just want to say that I was very very happy when I read through the report I guess it was yesterday and I wanted to say that I deliberately did not want to be on the commission because I am so Positively in favor of more public art that I thought if people who are more skeptical Financially were on it that their report would be believed and have having a lot more weight There are a couple of questions. I did have which is at one point I sent sent had a little Paper that I brought to a meeting on this which said that I hoped that there would be emphasis on local artists and That the people in the buildings should have some I wouldn't say okay, but buy-in in it because part of this is the public art is an expression of values of the community and I Just don't want us to get so far ahead of a lot of people in the community with something Which is like totally cutting-edge that they would love someplace else, but the people who? Live in the town or live working that building are unhappy with so just keeping it very much Related to the people in the town and expressing the values and the history and the culture of the town I just do a quick response, but Bill might like to to I think Our sense as we talked and you don't want to write it in too much of a straight hold in a bylaw Is what the Public Art Commission will be doing is trying to do a vision of what art? We want where it could be and so when the opportunities come up, but then get that kind of buy-in You know what what I've seen in examples of other cities is exactly like that sometimes the artwork is Celebrating the type of work that's being done by the people who inhabit the building or it's bringing people to the outside So that was the notion I Think if we wanted You know how I'll let bill respond more on the local artist point But I think the idea definitely was that the town would have an opportunity to understand What might be possible and do some feedback on it and then certainly the the people who are surrounding it You wouldn't do a necessarily the same thing at a school that you would do Near a fire station, but they could be sure so they'll maybe you want to say something about Local or you know how you envision because the Public Art Commission actually would be in charge of Making this happen. Yes. Thank you William K's and 32 Golden Rod Circle chair of the Public Art Commission. Thank you for having me Thank you for all the work of the ad hoc committee for Sonya so Certainly stakeholder buy-in is a it's a huge part of our process when we did electrify amhurst We you know reached out to business owners got the DPW on board And I will say thanks to the DPW who's always been a big supporter of the arts in town and helped out whenever they could Local artists is a little bit of a trickier issue in as much as we want the best project we can get on these sites So we certainly will reach out to as we always do and draw from the pool of amazing talent here But I would love to see a national call even an international call. I mean We want our local artists to be in that mix and we will really push to have them included and have their projects considered But I think in the end it's it's about having the strongest possible project That's going to inspire, you know, the students in the school the visitors to town the DPW workers You know the the entire region and show them that Amherst can be a center for the arts So what I'm thinking is this I appreciate the conversation and getting back to Sharon's point for a few minutes ago I think it would be Important is important that when we put together our final report back to the council About the proposed by-law that we have the numbers that you were talking about and how much it's going to cost to Per year to pay back either if it's done On funds that are going to be repaid from the general fund On an annual basis coming out of the the capital portion of the fund Because it's that would affect Other things that could be done or need to be done within the capital fund I think that the the answer is going to be that it's fairly small but we need to quantify that and present it so that both we're comfortable with it and That we can give those numbers to show that we've done due diligence in our work to the community And the same thing is true for the debt exclusion I actually did because we have the ability to do it with Sean Mingana's worksheet because you can click it on and off the Percent for art and then you can figure it out for each amount for buildings of various Costs so that's actually pretty much available to us with a little bit of playing around with His spreadsheet program The But I think we can we need to provide that information and we need to provide it for several levels of building in several levels of Property value on which tax is being paid to to demonstrate I think that it is a small amount but That's a judgment call. We have to be comfortable with after having the numbers right in front of us so my suggestion would be that We Try and get that in for our next meeting that information and That we then try and see if we can get a report outlined and together and Be able to just move forward with the chair I Think that's a really good point and I think I think once you have those figures then then when you talk about the Economic vitality that it can bring to a region you have you have real numbers like for this amount This is this is the kind of you know, especially when you're talking about getting international like opening up to international artists I think that's us. That's a really strong statement And argument for this that you can make to people and thank you again for this I'm I'm I'm certainly for this personally, so Okay, and as far as shall any I think I appreciate your point and I Don't know Quite frankly how to do the quantification of it. Certainly the principal can be stated but unless we can find information from Somebody who's done a study. I don't know how to do it ourselves just to say How many people would it would it bring to town? Because we have the the additional pieces of public art since we already have some significant public art Sure, I think you just answered your question sort of I think the more The more you draw people to town. This just becomes another layer of public art I know that the bid is working on trying to like bring aspects of the era Carl into town and the Hitchcock Center into town and just the more layers of Art that you can bring into town to you know Have people start thinking about this area in a different way or an enhanced way. I think So Certainly will include it. Yes small way We that would make that is measurable is the number of clicks on the website like if you have the Public art highlighted because I did look at what Dorothy was saying, but it sort of tucked away It's not in any of the main searches So if you have public, you know Something fancy that catches people's attention and it's there and then we could just measure how many people are clicking to that clicking that Yes Yeah, I've been silent Mainly because I've agreed with pretty much everything that people said and I did want to thank the ad hoc committee. I think it's a really good Draft by law and I think it answered all my concerns about the original one. So, thank you Okay, so anything else on this subject No, but I really want to thank Bill because he did a lot of the heavy lifting on this And he was fun to work with and then I I live up in North Amherst near the Mill River Recreation area and I was walking out to the trail system and there's in this incredible sculpture That's a salamander or something curled up over in the corner that winds around with circles I said, you know about this and he said, oh, yeah We put it in and I get that was one of the you know I thought we don't often know what's been done out there and it was a sort of a discovery and Way off but people would come over over to the corner, you know So what it did to that park was something and Sharon in terms of maintenance I think it's can be there forever because it's a rock, you know I mean the way they did it was thoughtful and that who's gonna go over there and keep spoocing it up But but that will be a long term since we don't spooce up our buildings. We're gonna have to worry about Whatever we put in Yeah, there's a similar sculpture actually near the baseball fields over at the Mill River recreation area In the salamander is the one that's a Cushman common This is the one I was no river. I saw Cushman too, but no rivers got the it's not the salamander though It's not it's a new body salamander, but I don't think public art commission put those in I have to check into the history Okay, well, I don't know who put it in but I love it. Yeah. Yeah, the salamander I think about all the time because I live across the street from Cushman common the So let's go on and talk about the committee charge because I wanted to get that done before Sonia has to go I think what we were going to do is Do the quantification have Probably Kathy maybe take the lead on doing a report from the committee that captures what we talked about if she's willing and I have my notes that I can share with her and Anybody else who has something that they want to share with her certainly could do so if she's willing to do that and Then we would come back with the with the information on the Quantification and Sonia may need to help with the bonds that are not Dead exclusion if we're going to use the program for the dead exclusion part Then we'll have a report and I think we'll vote on the report. We won't vote today Anything else on that's in Kathy is that okay? So absolutely. Okay, so bill. Thank you We're gonna go into all the things you're welcome to stay but you know that we're now passing to the next time Yes, just another small point. It might be worth making keep creating a database of local I've seen some other towns do that where they maintain a database of local artists That's something we're working on with the cultural district and Jeff Kravitz, so it's very much in conversation It's a little tricky and it costs money, so But if you guys want to help us find some money for that that'd be great. Thank you The Committee charge question I wanted to get to quit before Sonia had to go and I'm some conscious of time for that reason The committee charge itself is fairly straightforward a lot of it is actually based upon the Charter and quotes Charter sections where the committee and the Charter intersect but we are asked to Comment and see if there's any changes that we want to propose to the charge so I wanted to Ask that question, but the other thing that needed to be noted is that the GL committee in addition to asking us and all committees to review their charges also is raised the question of having the audit committees Functions merged into the finance committee and I think that that's actually a much more Tricky issue. I think Dorothy's our member on that committee. Yes and The Question is whether it makes sense to do that and whether we have the capacity to take on the amount of work There are two aspects of the odd committee and Dorothy can tell us a little bit about how much time she's observed It's bending but one is to meet with the auditor at the end of the process and the others the audit auditor selection assignment which is Provided for in the Charter Well the last part we haven't done yet So at present the meetings have not been arduous. There were very few of them Things were explained to us. We looked at them. We thought about them Pats the chair of that committee. It hasn't had a meeting in a while because we were waiting for I guess the present auditor to complete the work and Then we also have to try to choose another one. Isn't a lean aren't you on that committee? Or you've been to all the meetings. I've come to your meetings, but I'm not on the committee So from my position of inexperience because we haven't finished the process I Don't see why the finance committee couldn't do it. I Guess my first question is is there any is it just a question of workload? Or is there any perceived conflict of interest in having the finance committee also do the audit? I'm gonna ask you actually Lynn from her experience with other Agencies to talk about the second and then I'll come back to the first the time question because I have the experience of having served on the Prior audit committee in our former form of government for a number of years I've served on finance committee for the Armour Survival Center, which in their case they also do the audit and Separately I serve as the chair of the audit committee for the Girl Scouts of Central and Western Mass and In that case their bylaws require that there be a separate audit committee and that that audit committee Not be members that the chair of that audit committee not be a member of the board So they see the audit in that case is really Overseeing if you will providing oversight in a way that We think of all audits doing that, but they separate it make it even one step removed I've talked to both auditors in of those two different organizations about this and On neither occasion have any of them said it definitely has to be this way or the other They've said it's a preference, and it's not a requirement. So As far as the amount of time it takes Generally, we would just meet once a year in the sun on for a number of years that I was on it and we would get the Audit in advance so we'd have a chance to look at it and then the auditor would review it with us and Sort of give an overview and respond to questions there was a In the under the prior arrangement it was sort of split into a number of categories So there was a member of the finance committee member the select board A member of the school committee a member of the library trustees and a member of the public and And The I mean that it really was the preparation for the one meeting in the one meeting per year The selection of the auditor was not Delegated to that committee, which is different from the current process because That's Provided for in the charter that it's council responsibility, so it has to be a council committee to assist Sonya I had asked to just let us know Whether we're missing something by not having a member of the school committee and a member of the library trustees currently serving on the audit committee and I So I really don't think it'll be a problem because school committee members can come to the finance committee member and Give their comments on the audit if they have any generally for all the years. I've done it There's really not been a whole lot of Questioning our management letters have always been clean that's usually where you get most of the dialogue at audit committees when there's on management letter comments and Better ways that we could do things or some like that, but as far as the finances themselves those are pretty straightforward and There really hasn't been a whole lot of questions about that. So I don't think Personally that it would affect too much to not have library members or I'm not saying that I'm not trying to say that we don't need them or anything, but I'm just I don't think it should affect this at all I believe the Charter is silent on that issue As to whether the audit committee should include People from library and the schools, but I can check that Yes, I Think it makes sense to bring it into finance and then my question was I mean we're a Relatively large committee counting our Resident members so we could have a subgroup of us if it's requires extra meetings be Working on it at least I would think we would be able to Do that and so that I'm gonna phrase that as a question. Could we do that? So would it be when we're specifically focused on audit? Could we say here's a Subcommittee of our committee that's gonna meet or would it be a full call for the full committee? Or could we make that decision down the road? Generally in the past the audit committee was just There to review the audit of the auditors it just basically the auditor is presenting it to the fine to the audit committee And then everyone would go back to their respective boards and give their report. So it's not There's not a lot of work to it I don't I see it only being one meeting a year Maybe to just assign the engagement letter since that's no longer the town manager that does that this year I know we're supposed to go out and bid for it I'm dragging my feet on that one for many reasons but Other than that, it's it's really not labor-intensive. There's not a lot once once the audit is done. It's done Basically says we have to have an independent audit it says it has to be done by an outsider obviously and the town manager shall include in the annual budget the sum to cover that and The town clerk is supposed to court the clerk of the town of the council is supposed to coordinate the individual or firm selected Does she know that? No, not that I'm aware of and The audit needs to come to The town council and the town manager no way to be much quick. I don't see this as a big deal I also on the two committees. I'm on that do audits. We actually do get involved in the selection of a new audit firm Sonia in meeting with the audit committee has talked about the difficulty of this in Western Mass Where there's really only two firms who do municipal audits You know, I remember when we set up the separate audit committee when I read the charter language We didn't have to do that We just decided to because we didn't want the whole council to have to sit in on this so it it sounds like it's easy just to Fold it into what finance Our present audit committee Has somebody on it who's in fact the chair is not a member of the finance committee. Is that a plus or a minus? President audit committee only has one finance committee member on it I Mean we can so it means is there a point to having Non-finance committee members on the audit committee. That's that's my question Again that goes back to the two different examples. I gave you some non-profits Only have like one finance committee member on it other non-profits don't I think that the we're having this conversation a little bit in a vacuum because GOL is looking at the various committees and with some general guidance guidance or guidelines they're trying to come up with ways to reduce the burden of work on counselors and Therefore also trying to reduce the number of committees When they get done with that They're therefore needs to be a Survey done well doesn't need to be a survey, but that's the practice that I personally established a survey done of Counselors to say which committees would you like to be on so there could even be changes of membership on Finance committee any other committee? Yeah, I don't yeah, Sonya. I will say Past audit committees have always been really hard to pull together every year because they only met once a year And it was hard to get somebody from each of the other Committees and an at-large member in there. So a lot of times there's no quorum. There was never a quorum Requirement or anything. I would think it would be a much easier process just to schedule it into a finance committee meeting myself There is some benefit to The audit is different from looking at a budget they're very different documents and but When you're talking about the financial health of the town, it's an important measure so that there is some logic to putting it within the finance committee and The other thing that I was getting back to from the beginning is Sonya and I were talking about it the auditors usually Our current auditors usually pick one particular part of town government to do a more extensive review and I Recalled at least one time that there was school revolving funds was the Topic of the day so that the schools did get reviewed and this Sonya reminded me The library is there because while their expenditures are paid by the library and audited by the library other than personnel the personnel was run through the town and And We we provide the personnel services so that that aspect of it is subject to the audit It's Do we want to just see if there's what somebody wants to make a motion to recommend Or not recommend having the audit function assigned to this committee I'll make I'll make a motion that we fold audit into finance. I think it's a great idea Okay, so we have motions made seconded. I don't think further discussions necessary, but if there is any and I don't know Because we would want The entire committee to be a part of it because that gets us in The benefit of having somebody who's not on the three people who are not on the council potentially there This I'm willing to take on that additional role What you're asking? Yeah Okay, so let's say just if we have a vote since we have much on the floor all in favor indicate by raising hands I think I I so it's unanimous 5-0 And is there any other Why did we do this So that we can just keep moving take a little one last look at the charge and I will also let Mary Lou know this and If I haven't heard anything else within a couple of days That there's other aspects of the charge that people want to raise to either clarify or include exclude Otherwise I will let GLL know that we've completed our discussion and that we're okay with The charge as is with that one change so and if there's Something that somebody spots Then I will tell them that we're still gonna Work on it a little bit longer, but let them know the piece about the audit nonetheless That's fine. I don't know Where GLL is with regard to other conversations regarding the finance committee meeting a finance committee at one point I had heard some other Comment and frankly I never fully understood it But there may be a point in time where once GLL Comes back with their proposed changes in the charges that we may want to look back again at The finance committee charge. I hadn't heard anything from them As far as things that they wanted to that they had spotted in advance to change other than the one we talked about It was vague and it referred to something like restricting us to municipal finance And I I'm like going okay. What does that mean? So and I haven't heard anything from it since Okay As I said, I think the Charter defines us so clearly that it's sort of Hard to imagine where you go with that Anything else and people want to talk about them? Because the other thing we work. Yes, I think the Present charge of the finance committee with the three members of the community Just in our discussion of the audit I think that the idea of some Bringing another perspective while being familiar with what the finance committee is doing yet bringing in other perspectives Gives that that sense of objectivity that I think that we were looking for so I think that the charge is very good as it is Yeah, and I think that I hope that the GL is consulting the rest of the audit committee because They're in the midst of work and It's also would they like to finish the current audit and would they like to finish the selection process? Yes? Glad you brought that up. I wanted to make everybody aware that the this audit probably will not be done until the end of January mid-February we have to wait for outside agencies to get their reports into us and stuff We're waiting for numbers in Hampshire County retirement. That's usually the hold up last couple of years It's been March that the audits done because of that. So I think The auditors have everything they need and now they have to pull it all together. So Probably be early February It'll just let you know one other thing and then I'm going to go to the housing Policy so we can get going if you have to go understand the piece that Guess oh, I know it was OPEB the prior finance committee representative on The audit committee in the old form of government was for many years was in Iraq Sharma in an Iraq Took ownership in that dual capacity over the OPEB issue and the one place that there actually is some significant overlap in our needing to understand OPEB is Because it appears in the audit is quantified in the audit and there was a real advantage to having his Being in both roles So I just pointed that out because we Puts all of us into a higher level of understanding about what's an important but not easy. Yes Since you brought up OPEB. I want to make everybody aware that our Normal actuary that we've been using for the last couple of years Dan Sherman is retiring. So we were need to go out to bid for a new actuary at the same time just so you know Yeah, I think we probably need to have a conversation at a later date as to whether the choice of the actuary is an executive function or In which case it's really From the town manager's role to choose the actuary But I'm not I think actuary and audit are Two different things Yeah, I don't think that there's anything in the charter about it and so it is a consultant to It's something we probably need to talk to have a conversation with Paul about To just get that clarified before we Could complete the process It just is another note on the audit. I mean if I don't is the audit Targeting any one particular area this year You're trying to remember which two departments we went on. I'm pretty sure it's the second floor Okay, and I can't remember the second one, but I will Is it library or schools? Okay, so but it's just as an example It seems remember I'm senior center since we have a new administrator She wanted it to be looked at so it may be that on the day that we actually review the audit we invite People who represent those areas into the audit meeting or something? However, you and Paul would agree to do that our Paul of course would be there That's fine. Usually if there are findings or suggestions that are in the management letter They're well aware of it in their responses in there So right that would be fine. Exactly. Okay So anything else on audit if that looks like a few minutes about housing and then I think that we can probably Conclude the meeting so that we can Meet our goal of getting out of here by four o'clock so that everybody has a chance to get home. Yes, okay I know we we jumped over financial indicators, and I don't want to have a stay longer Longer than four o'clock, but I missed the four towns meeting on schools And so looked at the material just before I came here and then looked at our target increases, so I'm wondering whether on January 6 we might come back to We So I'll tell you what I saw it's if we said let's try have our guideline be two and a half percent And then I open up the school budget, and it says wages and are going up by two point eight and Health insurance is going up by seven percent. I'm thinking huh That looks to me like someone's good that group is going to have to really tighten their budget So I don't know whether that became part of the discussion on Saturday on December 7th and Or not, okay, I'll answer that really quickly and We can come back to it at the next meeting the But the answer is no it did not come up in that context But a different piece that was related came up because we did talk about What it would be for a level services budget and applied against the Various methods, and there was a chart that was put forward in that the Agreement last year there was a two-year agreement Which you know the question was whether all four towns are still going to support the The two-year agreement Moves us to 40 percent number in 40 percent Actually brings us out of balance by $70,000 7-0 and We recognize that because we had been Supporting the consensus agreement of last year is the community But we were sort of in the odd position that the number that we were supporting was actually out of sync a little bit with the two and a half percent and We all I did make a point very strongly to the four towns that The two and a half percent is not a easy for us to begin with because we're it involves a million dollar projected Deficit in the budget, which of course we hope to close as the budget process develops We don't know that that's the outcome so that this That that amount adds to it The focus of the discussion which would drive up costs is That At least one other town She was very was saying that they don't know that their town meeting would support anything other than the statutory method in the statutory method is much more consequential effect on Amherst and So the the tensions within the room were around The assessment methodology not the budget Okay, thanks The housing I Thought about the housing and I'll just tell you where I came up with is I felt that it was important to think about how to frame the discussion and I Came up with trying to look at it in in several different ways, but Mostly to try and look at what I'd say the positives and the negatives of having a policy are and I think we all recognize that the importance of the housing goal and the Is a part of it and some of the other things that we talked about as far as the Feeling of Needing to You have quality housing and dispersed housing which your issues that I think were raised by Dorothy In prior in our prior discussion But when we get to the cost side of it, I'd come up with a longer list one was Is a hard goal reasonable when you define the number of units and then what we know about the cost and The staff time that's involved with making it happen and whether a hard goal is a reasonable approach for the town as opposed to would I Call them or an aspirational goal that we're trying to reach in a direction but that we don't put numbers on it to the point that the numbers tie us up and With with significant financial consequence to get information about that We had talked about The costs that we have known from prior projects for how much it costs to develop the average affordable unit And What's that base? Adjusted for inflation. Can we come up with them a projected number and what is it going to cost us? I think the question that we talked about was Everybody says we'll see pack is the big source of funding for housing, which is why we had the chair of that committee here and CPA committee and the Question that was raised by several people in this committee was other demands for CPA funds and Our goal that we also have put forward to try and Have CPA pick up capital costs to the extent that it's legally permitted Remissible for them to do so in order to relieve pressure especially during the time of when we're talking about so many major projects at the same time and That there was actually I think we had some language in the guidelines about that too Seizing One of the things that I've always felt is that we recognize that the success that we've had in prior housing projects is Trying to just seize opportunities and The other thing I asked Chris Breistrup to report back to us at the next meeting And she said she would give it some thought and talk to Nate Malloy Was how much staff time gets involved in these various projects because I know there was a tremendous amount of staff time that got put into North Square and Out of the planning department and to get to where we are where with the number of affordable units She pointed out that that's actually true on several other projects that she mentioned including gas from Square and 132 Northampton Road so I Wanted her to think about how much staff time was involved in these various proposals and Whether that's something we should quantify But I don't know if there are other things that We've thought about I was trying to not Delve into too many of the housing issues That Are not financial as I was doing the outline, but we had some good list we had a really good discussion about it and One of the most significant one was about other populations that can't afford housing and Working people who are Starter families and people who are starting out their careers for the examples and the other group is homeless Yes What the zoning subcommittee the they have been seeming to be concentrating more on Two things one is the inclusionary zoning by-law which they would hope to get added so that it's not the town doing paying for the affordable housing, but that it would be developers doing a 10% say and the other one was the missing middle which is the people you're referring to and Thinking of the Possible ways that you could make that easier and I guess they would I think Maria was gonna is gonna get for report on supplemental dwellings and on making it easier for owner-occupied houses to have auxiliary apartments So That's kind of like not coming in and taking our CPA dollars I think you're making a very good point if some of that money can in fact go to help on the capital projects I think that should be something that we should be considering So it's missing middle in the second thing you were the inclusionary zoning by-law which would say for example as in The new housing on University Drive Where it's just kind of done and it's part of the I don't I don't know what the trade-off is and what the Those rules have to be made clear. They're not they're not there yet But that it would be developers would just automatically include some affordable housing so that we don't build up this big lack I just want to go back to the CPA issue and because I I realized that Any group would love to have some Place where they get a guarantee of a certain percentage of money. I don't care whether it's for housing or for Art or for whatever. I mean, it's like, you know, it's a dream and My biggest concern is because I've actually heard that we may be in line for some significant increase in CPA dollars and if we are in line for some significant increase in CPA dollars and We would end up doing a percentage to me that encourages perhaps not choosing best projects or wise projects it just encourages spending for the sake of Housing so I really want to re-emphasize that issue that I do not approve or personally support the idea that any group gets some automatic percentage of Any kind of fun? I'll build on that a little bit and it might I guess one of my overarching questions is I don't mind the idea of trying to think through housing policies sort of a guiding policy with some principles in it and my Original set of questions where I didn't know enough to figure out how to figure out the pieces Including the pieces of to what extent as new Buildings are being built in town. Is it incorporated in developers and we're dense development of someone doing a unit But I found these tables that have been given to us quite revealing in terms of More bang for the buck in terms of units. It looks like some of the owner-occupied habitat houses In the amount of CPA money we put in was significantly less than some of the others You know or renovations so I think in thinking very Strategically and analytically so it's not that you've got a money, but just spend it but spend it really wisely And justify why we're spending it here and not there and I'm not sure I'm new as people know I'm new to town government and I'm certainly new to watching CPA But I'm not sure there's been that outside work that would give them a framework to be able to be Um Constructively critical about what comes to them, you know, because it's they have to there They're sort of a push to spend out the amount of money. They have based on the proposals So weed out the weakest of the proposals and look what you've got rather than try to get My hope would be the town would try to get way too many proposals coming in So then you winnow it down to the best of them rather than say well we got 15 and we can fund 13 You know, it's I'd like to have a bigger set of buckets. So you could say if there are these four Put them up against some screen and and this information I know it's just coming in as twist of pieces, but it's it's pretty revealing as you look toward this Per unit and I know, you know, we're we're apples and oranges because sometimes it's a repair of a place and sometimes it's building something new So so I don't know where we go with this Andy But I thought some of the questions we asked have prompted the beginning of a flow of information That since my background is go think like a wonk and work worse some numbers out You know, like what would I think might be a policy in terms of a framework without Saying is it 200 units is it 100 units? But how do we spend our money? Wisely where some opportunities are of our own making some we have to wait for a developer Want to build something in town before we can say 10% of those are 5% belong to affordable So that's just um That's just a general statement And I like some of the habitat things because they're not so pegged to unless you're under a hundred percent of poverty You could be a working Family with a slightly higher income and you're putting sweat equity into your home And so you really care about it. It's a different way of thinking. It's a more permanent We're bringing people into town that want to be here and they're working hard. So I think this The impetus to start this inquiry has produced some really useful information So I I don't know whether we say within six months. We'd like to think this through what CRC doing Where do we go with this would be the question? Well, CRC already has submitted the report theirs was more in reaction to the particular proposal and I'm thinking suppose we The council wanted to think this through, you know, like we have had one before us. Where might we want to? How might we want to shape something without a timeline like could be 12 months from now? We we have been kind of thinking It's different kind of levers Where do we think the problems are the most? How would we target? What if we could when the opportunities arise? so that's The way I think about this as we start to get the pieces of information Yes, shall me Building on what you said, I think I would like to see us use this information in terms of You know, what is the cost of course? But it was interesting to see that some of the cost was more like cash going out of CPA and the other is Cost like of lost revenue or taxes. So how do you know? They're not the same like the North Square we It's 2.8 million over 10 years, but we're also getting from them yearly Taxes on the remaining stuff. So it's you know So like finding the creating criteria and then is it make multifamily? Is it, you know, like habitat where there's more community aspect? Is it? Disper you know in Integrated not like we have all just affordable housing in one place, but it's integrated mixed income Buildings so we create maybe guidelines or criteria and then guidelines for what our Priorities might be based on all using all of this information I think that would be a great idea for the town council or for the finance or whoever someone to figure out Dorothy yes, the list of a present all The affordable housing that we have already. I was going over that again this morning and I have a thousand questions. I don't understand the the numbers the cost per unit varies Hugely, so I really would like to have either Housing person from the town or a builder or some people who know what those numbers mean and why Somebody this unit costs 11,000 and that unit cost a hundred nine thousand Because I think that's really kind of the information that we need It's because I was adding up the number of units. I'm trying to figure out which ones are there any owner-occupied there were a couple and there were some that wasn't clear what they were and rental and So right now I just feel we're working in the dark. So I think we need better information some of the Probably could sit down and tell you a little bit about my own knowledge of it But I'm not going to do that now because I want to I'm looking at the clock the Habitat ones for example a lot of times there it's a Combined effort that has a Non-profit in addition to habitat that's worked together to come up with the land and the habitat construction proposal and then it all comes together with some financial assistance from CPA so that there's a concerted effort, that's what I referred to as seizing opportunities because They would come to us Is Really all of the ones that we've been successful on it's others coming to us. We didn't got to to send to Jones to say hey, why don't you find a non-profit housing developer and build your property? She came up with the idea of building her property and looking for a non-profit Developer and for the housing piece was beacon and So Each one of them when you go back to it It was not something that arose from the town or from a town the town housing committee it arose from Somebody who saw an opportunity and went after it The which is why I think that we Creating a goal Puts pressure on us to do something that we've never done before Why don't I try and see if I can do it do a little bit of a draft on this and I'm going to see if I can do a couple things one is to see if we can get Nate Malloy to come into our next meeting and Nate is someone who put together those charts. So he's the logical person to see if he's comfortable present Answering the question that you're raising Dorothy and he can tell us about some of the projects and more detailed information about the projects that have been developed and Then and I think that that in combination with whatever Chris breast strip might tell us about the amount of staff time that's been involved in prior projects and that she might project for future projects and the capacity of her department to take on that this work that's being Described in here is I think would be helpful Are there other pieces that we should be going out for immediate investigation on? And otherwise, I think I'd start the draft and get everybody in for the next meeting Just one comment after as a result of this discussion with Nate and Chris maybe we could make a list of Things that seemed more as you'd say more bang for your buck more efficient ways of providing lower-income housing or modern-income housing As opposed to the ones that are more expensive I mean, there may be some really wonderful things about some of the more expensive so we'd have some idea of of Why you would make this choice of this approach over that approach? I think it's a good point. I think it's been actually that's a Was raised in some of our prior discussion and I think it's a logical follow-up so I mean So all of that is there anything else that somebody wants to say on this topic right now is if not Just real quickly on what would also some of the ginger the major capital investments process next steps The anything you want to take up on that today very quickly the comment period Online remains open through December 20th And then the consultants will incorporate that along with the feedback we got at the actual listening sessions and so it's possible that by the time we beat on 7th of January, we will have that feedback Okay And I think that that since there's no public to make public comment. There's nothing else that we have on the agenda so I think I can just by agreement declare adjournment at five minutes after four and thank Amherst media for being with us today and And happy holidays and thank you all for being here. I'm a tough day Thank you