 Sudan's transitional justice with an organization called ACHPR, and it stands for African Commission on Human and People's Rights. And that definition, that acronym is going to be on the final exam. So I hope everybody wrote it down, yeah? Our guest today is Cynthia Ibali, and she is in Kampala, Uganda, right now as we speak. Thank you for joining us, Cynthia. Thanks for having me. So let's get a handle on, you know, first of all, your role with Project Expedite Justice. You're a lawyer. And what country are you from and what countries did you spend time educating yourself? So yes, I am a human rights lawyer based in Kampala, Uganda. I am, I am, I am Ugandan born and raised, but I did my higher education outside of Uganda. So I did my bachelors in South Africa with the University of Pretoria. I've done the postgraduate legal diploma with the Institute for Legal Practice and Development in Rwanda. And then fairly recently, but not really, I was my master's in masters of law in human rights with the Central European University in Budapest. Wow. It's been all over. Travel is broadening, they say, and certainly, you know, the statement of your training in Korea so far is a statement about the connection, so many African countries and the connection of Africa with Europe. So interesting. You know, in the U.S. and Hawaii, we don't, we don't really realize that. We don't, we don't really understand that. But the fact is the world is changing, Africa is changing. His relations with other places changing and your generation is changing. So my question to you, this is not a, this is not an easy one, okay, is all of that, why, why are you doing this? So I think I will sound a bit cliche, but my interest in law grew out of me wanting to help people using the law, knowing that law is quite a powerful tool when it comes to social justice and other issues. So that's why I started out in my law degree in South Africa. And as I was doing law at undergrad level, I then was exposed to human rights law. And again, based on my interest with using law to better people's lives, it just seemed like the perfect match. And so this is why I got into the human rights practice or area of interest. And since then I've never looked back, I've just built on my expertise in this area. This is why I then went on to do our masters in the area to refine my knowledge, gain more experience, especially in terms of a comparative experience with the European systems and the African systems. So it's the stint of not all my time in Europe. Wow. And you think you'll continue to do this for your whole life? For now, yes. That seems like a plan. Okay. Yeah. What's Africa like these days? We've done a number of shows with Project Expedite Justice with a number of people associated with it and looking at human rights and war crimes, if you like, all over Africa. We've also talked to Project Expedite Justice Associates in Latin America. And for that matter in Ukraine, which is kind of a hotspot of its own. So I'm just wondering, in your observation, vis-à-vis all of Africa, what's Africa like these days? And should we be concerned about the degradation of human rights there? Should we be encouraged by what you're doing? Are you making traction? Can we talk about that? What's African like these days? That's quite a wide question. Off the top of my head, I don't know why the first thing I was thinking about was the high fuel prices. But in relation to the human rights situation in Africa, I think it's quite varied. I'll start up with Sudan, because this is where I'm currently focused, is you're having the situation with continued anti-cool movements. So you have quite a number of protests that are still occurring against the military takeover or coup that happened in October 2021. Then you also have, most recently, we are receiving reports of communal violence in some parts of the country, in Blue Nile, most recently. But you also have experienced some conflicts in Darfur. Other than that, there's also, of course, the economic situation that's not getting any better since the high fuel prices. When you come down to Uganda where I'm based, there's a lot going on. So at the moment, it's definitely the economy situation that people are crying over, all of us are quite worried about. And yes, the economic situation should be overtaken. How does that work, Cynthia? What I mean is, so you have economic troubles. There are many places in the world today that have economic troubles. You're looking at human rights and violations of human rights. How do, in the macro picture, in the examination of the society, how do economic troubles, like high prices, inflation, price of gas and food and so forth, out of those things, lend themselves to violations of human rights? What's the dynamic on that? I think with the high prices, that kind of widens the poverty situation, the poverty gap, access to definitely food and access to food. Because high prices also drives up food prices. So that definitely puts strain on access to food. Access to health also affects it. Of course, with high prices, that means transportation, that means having to ferry medicines and stuff like that, increasing prices, so that also affects that. So how does it work? So my quality of life is not as good because of the economy. It's folding away from under me. I suppose I'm discouraged. I suppose I'm really unhappy. I suppose I'm angry. I want to blame somebody. I don't know who to blame. So I get out in the street and make a protest, if you will, and the protest. And if I'm off track, you tell me, the protest starts as peaceful. It's just a statement of unhappiness with the economy and with life. And then somewhere along the line, the government pushes back and it becomes more violent. And before you know it, you have violence on both sides. And then the whole system begins to deteriorate. And it winds up in violations of the human rights of the people who started this peaceful protest. Is that the way, is that the MO of what happens? So yes, I think you've also kind of explained the situation in Sudan and how the protest started, especially in 2018. The rising fuel prices, which also caused rising basic commodities and people were fed up with, well, corruption, but then also is that government is not doing what it's supposed to, to look out for its citizens. And so people go to the streets to protest this, to voice their dissent against poor governance in general. And like you mentioned, they're peaceful. And they have, I think, largely been quite peaceful. And so when the security steps in is that you're pushing back with the use of force, you're shooting at unarmed protesters using tear gas, live ammunition, and so forth. And then beating, arresting, detaining. People are just peacefully protesting, peacefully asking for the government to take action, to intervene in the rights of prices and stuff like that. And so then you have a loss of lives. You have injuries that's affecting, of course, your health, especially if you're being, if you're maimed in the process. But then you also have, say, if it's loss of life, there's also probably breadwinners who are going, so that also affects households across. So it's different types of violations. People in the government, OK, they're the same nationality. They may be who knows, they may be brothers and sisters of the people in the street. And they know what life is like. They know what life is like in that community in the street. And is there no sympathy? Does the government not understand what you have just said? Does the government not understand how wrong it is to apply violence against peaceful protest? Don't they know better? From their rhetoric, it seems the come of us quite distant from realities on the grounds. We must also acknowledge they're quite privileged, given their positions in power and access to financial resources compared to people on the ground. So they're kind of offered from situations. That's what I think. Well, you know, the thing about privilege is very interesting. You know, COVID has had an interesting effect on the movie industry. The movie industry since COVID has become global. I mean, if you want to watch a movie here on Netflix or Prime, Amazon Prime, you can see a movie in most countries in the world. I mean, you can see a movie made in Tibet. You can see a movie made in Bulgaria, which we never heard of movies before. And here's the point. You can see a movie made in Africa in any number of countries in Africa. And those movies explore, because it's really interesting as a matter of entertainment and education for that matter. They explore this question of privilege of those who have it and those who don't. And there's a divide, is there not, in a number of countries, a number of unhappy countries in Africa between privilege and not privilege. Do people understand and recognize that? The moguls in Hollywood do. The movie makers understand it. But do people realize that it's not healthy to have a big divide between privilege? And I guess that means money and power, as you put it. And the ordinary fellow who works at an ordinary labor job, is the government interested in closing the gap? Is there a way for the government to do that? Well, I don't know if I can speak for everyone, but I would like to think that some people do. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that some people do recognize and are willing to close this gap, but then you also can't deny or deny, but ignore the fact that there's also a number of people who benefit. And I'm not sure. So they like the gap. They like the interview. Well, they like the gap, but if closing the gap kind of comes at an expense that they reduce money or something like that, their money, then they may be, they will definitely be a pushback from them. So I guess they like the comfort they're living in currently and change. Change is hard to accept. Yeah, well, that's true. And your generation has changed. And of course, in the US, we should understand this because we have our own gap, don't we? And you must see that in the media that we have our own divide. We have people who would like to be wealthy at the expense of everyone else. We have people who want to be racist because they think it gets them ahead and so forth. And so when you have this gap, when you have, call it the privilege gap or the wealth gap or the power gap, it's all the same. It leads to a deterioration of the social fabric. Do you agree with me? Yes, I do. So can we get to the root of this somehow? For example, if I took away all the inflation, if I provided food, jobs, if I fed money into the economy in Darfur, would this solve the problem? Would this alleviate the gap and therefore the protests and therefore the violence? What is the solution? I mean, don't you think we ought to go back to the root causes here and deal with them? Yes, we definitely need to. I think providing food, money, and all the resources is good. But there's also who controls the food, money, and resources. So the power structures and who controls how it's distributed. So I think we definitely need to address that as well. There's also tensions in terms of land, land as a resource. That's also and also how is that, how that is addressed in terms of fueling conflict will definitely be key in addressing the issues in Darfur amongst other things. Well, I've been going on a long time in Darfur. I mean, we're all getting old watching the problems in Darfur. And I wonder how long this is going to go on. And whether Project Expedite Justice can actually have a significant effect on the ultimate violations of human rights. So tell me how you contribute to the effort as an attorney in Kampala, the effort to alleviate violations of human rights in Darfur and in Sudan. So currently, we are supporting or working closely with groups in Sudan, including groups, Civil Society, I must say, and I'll be specific. Civil society, civil society in this sense, meaning human rights organizations that engage in documenting violations in Sudan, where providing capacity building or documentation to ensure that they meet highest standard, international standards. In this sense, hoping for future accountability in that whatever is collected would be used to advocate for accountability and help victims seek redress, hopefully, in the near future. And supporting also, say, seeking redress before regional bodies like the African Commission on Human and People's Rights, or the African Committee or experts on the rights and welfare of the child. I mentioned this too specifically because these bodies have a mandate to oversee the situation in Sudan. So how do you do that? Do you want to document it and you want to speak? I suppose you want to deliver a package, so to speak, to the African Commission. They're the ones you're speaking to. And today you're also speaking to me and anybody who watches this show. And I'm with you, Cynthia. I want to see you prevail. I want to see you make it for accountability by these people. But how do you get there? Does the Commission have the power to prosecute? Or is it limited to collecting information and attempting to make a sort of public statement and to embarrass the officials who have not conducted themselves in a humane way? So under its protective mandate, the Commission can receive what they call communications against parties to... Sorry, yes, parties to the African Chatter on Human and People's Rights. So just to backtrack the African Chatter on Human and People's Rights, which is a founding human rights instrument or treaty is what established the Commission. And so to answer your question, does it have the power to prosecute? It then have prosecutary powers, but it does have the power to adjudicate over cases that... How can I put it? Cases that allege, yes, that allege violations of rights in the African Chatter. So similar to what you would have with the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights if I got it correct. So it has a similar functionality. So you can hear what in our situation call them communications under its protective mandates, but they also possibility for fact-finding missions, but it would need approval from the African Union and also cooperation from the state party that it seeks to conduct its fact-finding mission. Yeah, we gotta stop these violations of human rights. It's really troublesome that we still have them in 2022 and we have them in various places in the world. And I mean, I wonder, let's have a case studies in here. I'm gonna have a case study. So suppose my family was killed or heard or named by security forces in Darfur for no good reason, because the government is insensitive and just puts down any disturbance with violence. So I want them to be accountable. Now, if I go to the commission, if I go to you as counsel, you're gonna do an investigation, you're gonna make a package of documents of affidavits, maybe videotapes, we here at Think Tech, we like videotapes. And you're gonna submit this package to the commission and maybe elsewhere. What is the commission going to do to achieve accountability? Can the commissioner, for example, go to the international court in the Hague? Can the commission go into the courts of Europe seeking redress against European organizations that have somehow supported this kind of violence and the governments that conduct this kind of violence? Can the individuals who are responsible, can they be fined? Can they go to jail by virtue of some prosecution elsewhere other than in the commission? I mean, what is my chance of achieving justice here? So if you come to me with your case, this case study, the first situation is like you said, I need to gather all the facts and the evidence, but I also need to inquire if you have tried to access remedies at a domestic level, because the African commission only comes in where there are no available remedies at the domestic level, or at least not available, but where you have finished exhausting remedies at the domestic level and then probably not satisfied with what you've got or haven't gotten a remedy and then you go to the African commission. But there are exceptions to the rule where the remedies aren't available, effective or sufficient is when you can then access the African commission. The African commission also is the communications procedure applies to countries that are party to the African charter. I just have to clarify. Which is not every country. Okay, just some countries belong to the African. Well, on the African continent, but I mean, we can't take a case against the US to the African commission. What about Sudan itself? Is it a party to the powder? Yes, it is. So this is why I say they have a mandate over Sudan or at least have jurisdiction to monitor the implementation of the African charter in Sudan. So yes, sorry. How do I get my justice? Do I get a check in the mail? Do I hear the news that the people who are responsible have paid a price of some kind? So once your communication is okay, it's admissible and it's decided on the merit, say you're successful, the commission issues recommendations. So a number of things are finding over violation say in this case, a violation or a right to life. And also a violation of the state party's obligations to the charter. So in this case, is that if there's no investigation that has happened, no prosecution leading to the, leading to the holding of perpetrators accountable it would also, it can also recommend payment of compensation. In some cases, the commission has actually recommended amounts to be paid to victims, but in this case, usually it's advisable that as you're stating your case, you request what kind of compensation you want. The commission has also recommended institutional and legal reform. So it has made recommendations. Oh, this is very important, yeah. Yes, it has made recommendations to state parties in that regard. And so that's definitely important in ensuring non-recurrence of violations and also addressing deficiencies at domestic levels. So is it successful in the sense that, you're observing this and you understand the trouble people have and the need for sort of an overarching organization beyond the remedies available in any one country, you need many countries to have a charter and a commission like this. And that's actually, it sounds to me like that's pretty good because it has a moral overton to it. But my question to you is, is it doing what you hope it would do? Is it achieving the accountability? Is it achieving social justice, economic justice, privilege justice, all that? And it's recommendations for reform, are they being accepted? Is it recommendations or compensation to individuals? Are they being paid? So my question is it, how successful is the commission in all of the ways you have seen it operate? And let me go one step further. If you were to suggest to the commission today changes that would make it more successful, what would you suggest? Okay, so is it successful? I'd like to think to an extent yes, in terms of, and it also depends on what victims are seeking or whatever approaches or commission. But I would like to say yes, based off of the decisions it has granted or handed down especially in relation to Sudan, there have been some very, very promising but successful decisions when it comes to protection of human rights defenders who have been tortured in the past, but also recognizing issues in terms of with the immunity provisions in Sudan's law that hinder accountability for, especially where you have security and police as perpetrators of violence. So what would you say to them? Let's assume it's you and the members of the commission and they say, Cynthia, what do you think we should do to be more effective? What's your answer? Well, I guess I would say reduce, try and address the period of time it takes to decide on a case. I understand the commission is quite understaffed and they're also resource contrates, but also the commission is, not I think, it is on the continent outside of domestic remedies. It's the next place that many victims in Africa could go to seek redress or accountability for violations they suffered, especially where these states are either unwilling or unable to address violations domestically. It's the most accessible if I could say it in the way that, well, we have a commission, but we also have the African court, but to access the African court, there's a number of high bills, especially for individuals and civil society NGOs who represent many victims on the continent. With the African commission, there's not this hindrance. So it's that anyone can access the commission. That's pretty valuable. Are the country courts doing a good job? Or I mean, it seems to me that if you have to have a commission and you do have to have a commission, it means that at least some countries are not doing a good job. Well, because you know, country courts implement domestic law. So yes, but then also are also a way to implement decisions or at least international standards that states ascribe, is that the what, ascribed to? Yeah, but what about you, Cynthia? Do you appear in country court cases? No, I don't. Not at the moment. I don't appear in country court cases. I just probably follow proceedings and then come in, should one seek to access regional systems? So, you know, one last area I'd like to discuss, we're at a time, but I'd like to discuss this with you. You know, it strikes me that Africa in general, some countries are changing quicker than other countries. Some countries are more enlightened than other countries nonetheless, but in general, Africa is changing and the relationships of Africa and other places in the world are becoming closer and more conscious and, you know, maybe even more successful. And so the question I put to you is, you know, are you one of only a small number of lawyers in Kampala or other cities around, you know, Central Africa that are doing this? Or is this a generational movement where people like you for the same reasons that are your reasons want to help achieve accountability in good government? I'd like to say it's growing. I think we're quite a number of lawyers or even human rights defenders who are assisting victims access regional mechanisms. So it's quite a growing number. I wouldn't say we're a few. Quite many interested in what regional systems have to offer. It's not just at the African level, but there's also at the sub-regional level. So let's say, for example, with the East African community, you have the East African Court of Justice. So a number of lawyers are also making use of sub-regional courts like East African Court of Justice or in the West African region, you have the ECOAS courts to pursue human rights cases. So, yeah, I think it's, we're definitely using the various avenues we have at our disposal to seek good governance and accountability. These are principles that states have, I mean, signed on to. And so we are definitely using this to hold them to their word, if I could say that. Good, well, let me say, and I say this to the people who are doing similar work in Ukraine. You're not just representing your ostensible clients, so to speak, you're really representing the whole world at achieving a better moral standing, a better world order. So I admire you for that and I wish we could spend more time. And I'd like to fly right over to Kampala and meet you in person and say hi. But that may not happen right away. Thank you, Cynthia. Cynthia Ibalia with Project Expedite just as an attorney working in Kampala on matters arising out of the events in Sudan. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.