 Welcome to Breeder's Syndicate 2.0, where we explore the history of a clandestine scene. Researching everything from cannabis strain history, old smuggling tales from the first person perspective, to breeding science and news on current subculture. I'm your host, Matthew, and I'll occasionally be joined by my homey not so dog, Breeder and grower from Mendocino, to speak on these subjects and sometimes interview other participants. Our goal is to document this history before it's written by corporations and others who just weren't there. Let's start writing some wrongs. Welcome to the Underground. Welcome, Breeder Syndicate. I'm here with my buddy, Thousandfold, and we will be talking about why cookies is the beginning of the end of modern breeding. And maybe some ways that we can change that, hopefully fix that, and what composes some of these lines and why it's headed the directions it's gone. So yeah, thank you for joining me, Thousand. Hey, Matt. Yeah, so I guess what would make sense here is if we do a little recap of what the major components of the cookies family might be. Absolutely. So first off, I want to talk about what is cookies itself. And to talk about cookies, we also have to talk about another clone that came out around the same time, which was Cherry Pie. Also, animal cookies hit the scene at the same time, but it's much less relevant. It looks like more of a forum cookie sister. But for all intents and purposes, we need to talk about which cookies because there were multiple cookies cuts from cookie fam that people were growing around the same time. So we have the fin mint cut from cookie fam. My first introduction to cookies was what was called Girl Scout Cookies at the time, but later on became called the forum cut. Now the thin mint cut and the forum cut are two separate cuts. Cookie fam has always stated that the thin mint cut came before the forum cut. So when we refer to cookies in this episode, we are going to be referring to the thin mint cut proper unless we specify forum cookies. Now the thin mint cut was said to be an OG Kush that they had from Florida that they refer to as the flowrider OG. Cross to what is called the F1 Derb, which has been kind of a controversial, really rare cut that they don't really talk about too much. They don't really talk about what's in it. And when they do, it didn't make a lot of sense. And yeah, along that same time, we have the cherry pie that came out, which is my favorite of most of them. I might add that in. And that's supposedly a granddaddy purple cross to an F1 Derb. Granddaddy purple itself is an Urkel Salmon Creek Big Bud Hybrid, most likely made by Chris Yaki, who is no longer around to really ask about it. This is the best knowledge we have for this moment. The GDP is a very Urkel dominant expression itself. And a lot of people would confuse the two and they were passed interchangeably for a long time. But cherry pie does a good job of expressing some of the F1 Derb traits and the cherry, or I'm sorry, and the Urkel traits. And that's what you get with cherry pie. Cherry pie became a lot less important as cookie fan breeding carried on. Though at the time I'm mentioning it because it is very integral and often a lot of people confuse the genetics in cookies with the genetics in cherry pie. And a lot of that I think is because what became known as the forum cut seems to be showing traits from both the cherry pie and what cookie fam refers to as the thin mint or cookies. When you S1 or have, you know, hermed bag seed, self bag seed of forum cookies, you can find a lot of Urkel traits in it. And that's why that tells me that that is most likely a hybrid of these two and that cookie family probably was right when they were saying that thin mint came first. In all logic, it kind of works out that way for me. So those are the main basis for what we're going to be talking about. And again, the F1 Derb was kind of a rare clone. Me and CSI have been have been working with it, trying to figure it out. I worked at I worked with it really early on, made a few crosses and let it go. Mostly because there was no interest really in the F1 Derb. It wasn't really talked about a lot by by cookie fam so it didn't get the hype that all the other did. As someone who's a little bit, you know, far away, I didn't even know if F1 Derb was like a real thing. And I think that a lot of people thought that as well. I think, I think in America, it's the same way. People still argue on Instagram constantly like when me or CSI post a picture to be like, that's fake. That's not real. That's not a real thing. And like, yeah, it is. It's a real thing. It's been it's been the same cut that's been passed as F1 Derb since, since the beginning, since we got it. And we decided that we were going to cross it to some of these other cuts, be it the thin mint, we have that the F1 Derb being selfed. So we can see what other kind of traits are inside the F1 Derb because it is an interesting cut, very interesting cut. It's got swollen, bubbly, brax, a lot like cookies, right, like that's one of its main traits. It's very low yielding a lot like cookies. It's a little more airy, like, like a Durban would be as very anise, anise, anise type smells to it, which would be like root beer or black licorice has some gingerbread and some some urine type smells to it to be honest as after it cures. Does it bring the purple black leaves as well. It does have some purple traits to it, especially on the leaves, the stems early on in bed you can see those beautiful purple traits but yeah it does it does have some nice purple traits and it brings with it as well. I'm not sure 100% what it is but since he's German poison did have that black licorice in it. The gingerbread being an extension of that some of the pissiness I'm not sure. I would speculate but it would be going out on a limb for sure that maybe og was crossed into it very early on into the since Durban poison skunk one, and that that's what we get with the f wonder but that's pure speculation and it's only because of how the, the bud structure of all of it. The smells are very different from og kush. It's a long stretch from og kush. So it's very, very much speculation but the small leaves around the buds the way they look or very og kush. The resin production reminds me a lot of like a triangle and stuff like that. And again, I want to go back to the flowrider og as well since that's one of the main components. They've been grown side by side by not so growing triangle triangle kush and flowrider og side by side because for a long time we were wondering, since both of these cuts are early og kush cuts from Florida are they the same cut, you know where they just passed under different names. So it took a while but we were able to rejoin these cuts and have them grown side by side and by not those opinion they are not the same cut. They are definitely similar types of ogs, but because of specific traits a triangle has and specific traits the flowrider has which I'll leave that to not so to talk about in another show. We were able to tell that they are probably two different cuts and that that makes up the basis for what cookies is the directions it breeds. And again I would break it down to GDP oracle flowrider og kush which is really just an og kush. The F1 derb which is probably a Durban poison skunk one hybrid. And yeah I think that's the main components if I didn't miss any. So that's the first layer of the inbred pyramid. Yeah this is the first layer of the inbred pyramid and like at this layer I don't see a whole lot wrong. I don't see a whole lot wrong with the direction of breeding. When this hit the scene at the time when cookies popped up I remember looking at the pictures and cherry pie as well because I saw both at the same time. And I was like wow these are absolutely unique beautiful plants for their resin production, their budge structure shape, the bracts all of it. It was a very unique but I also thought there's no way this will ever be commercial because it is so low yielding. And that's why I took an interest in it because I was like this will never be commercial it will never catch on. So I took an interest in breeding with it and I tried to take it some new novel directions like instead of just making more of itself I wanted to see more of what it could bring to other existing things. And yeah those are the directions I was hoping it would go. And that most breeders have taken lines over the years and cut specifically clone onlys. And I can talk about maybe why the politics of that have changed and how the politics of changing sort of enabled this to happen right. Like for a long time feminized seeds were very almost demonized like religiously demonized. I was often told as were other femme breeders at the time in the mid 2000s that we were ruining the gene pool. This isn't the way God intended it to be. We were destroying the chromosome so it was permanently going to destroy cannabis gene pool. And basically it's just not how it's supposed to be. It's trash. It's a cheap way to breed. It's cheating. It's quick. There were so many different reasons of why people didn't like it. Against God. Against God was a real real thing and like it's still it's still something that people throw at me. Like it's not natural and I can go into why that's the worst argument out of all of them. But I mean in nature cannabis is naturally intersex. As humans we want we've bred away from that trait the intersex trait. We've done as best we can to remove that trait from the gene pool. However in nature it's there and man has removed it by reintroducing intersex traits. We're actually taking it back to where nature had it technically. You really want to get technical. Getting closer to God again. Right back closer to God you know that's where we want to be right. So yeah during those times it wasn't as proper. You didn't want people to know you were making fem seeds especially if you were. Whereas once we hit to about 2013 1415. Fem breeding became real popular as as growing became more popular in America and it wasn't just the old legacy growers and it was getting more popular as states became online and new growers were popping in. Then I seeds weren't a bad thing necessarily to these customers because they didn't want to deal with males in the first place and they weren't really concerned about chromosomes or genetics that hadn't come into play in their brain so. The marketing finally started to take hold on fem seeds. And because of that we started to see a lot of people making feminized crosses of cookies including myself. We would do self inbreeding of this cookies which you self reading of cherry pie. You know and then we'd make crosses of these and self these. And that's because it was more allowable and people weren't getting as much pushback. There were thousands of people doing the same thing with cookies and all the cookies hybrids. They weren't getting the pushback that we had seen for a decade prior. And I think this allowed. This this culture to take hold of selfing feminized seeds in the US to take hold. And in doing so took reading in a completely different direction than it had ever gone before. Yeah. So. From there. We have what what became known as the sunset sherbet. We have. Gelato. We have things like. Skittles pop up. We have. What's the other runs we have things like this all pop up the key line. So this is the next the next generation. This is the next generation of where most of the popularity. Took the cookies lines and when I say that there are so many breeders out there who have done unique novel things with cookies when it first came out made. Crazy crazy crosses I mean we even had like chocolate tie. Across the cookies we had like the 95 cents he star across the cookies. A lot of strawberry cookies early on just taking it different directions. But a lot of people were more interested in what they could do in their room with a tent. And some reversal spray. And just cookies. And what we started seeing pop up were the cookies s one revolution. The bag seed revolution. Cookies was so in demand you know six thousand a pound so people were trying to find any seeds they could find in the bags of wheat. And cookies did a good job of trying to remove those seeds like they really tried to pick the seeds out and I don't blame them because they didn't want the competitors. And that's when the marketing of fortune cookies they call things fortune cookies or you know cookies or whatever they wanted to call it to try to denounce any of the bag seed coming up. But people were finding their own bag seeds and giving it new names. They name it after themselves cookies like they call it riot cookies or whatever for that was just an example I didn't have that but. We also had people that were kind of tangentially friends with the cookie fam doing some work. And in that group there is a dude named Mario also referred to as sherbet ski. And he popularized something called sunset sherbet. We also have something he did called gelato and some of what comprises that stuff is something he had called the pink panties. Now I grew the pink panties cut for a while and I was trying to figure out what exactly it was online. There's not a lot of consistency about what it is some say it's a Burmese land race. Cross to no flow right to OG the flow right to OG. I find that hard to believe because of Burmese land race you know Thai Burmese that's a 24 weaker and you know 20 to 24 weaker. I mean if you're lucky maybe work line would be 14 weeks you know something like that but I'm not seeing that I did not know that. Can I just ask how widespread was the pink panties. Not at all. Not at all about like F1 Derb. It never despite it being in the parental lineage because of the people that were buying cookies gear and interested in it. At this point I had already kind of walked away I was not interested much in cookies proper people had already made a bunch of crosses with it it was already starting to be in. So I lost a lot of interest in it but I was interested in some of the parentage and F1 Derb and the panties were not widely passed. And again people would have had to have been into parentage to hunt these cuts and want these cuts. And like if you look up the parentage for pink panties it's not even really consistent. So like I can't imagine there being a lot of hype about something that like sounds like a Burmese land race cross to an OG like there wouldn't be a lot of interest in that. Yeah. Yeah. So with those two are kind of at the limits of what we we know for sure. Yeah for sure. And and like looking at it. I would guess and because I've read a few places that Burmese Kush was used or was in the room. That would fit a lot better with that than a Burmese land race. However, like what this looked like was some sort of blackberry hybrid. It was low potency a little airy. Not a ton of resin production a little fruity. And it's I've used it in projects but it's not something I would continue to use in projects. I was just interested to see how it's read with something that I know to see what else was in there. It was to me it's an odd choice to use in a popular line nonetheless it's supposedly what's in these lines in the in the sunset sure. The sunset sure supposedly was made in what I think the area of where he would made it was called sunset area, which is why it's called sunset sure. But there's also something called the green sure, which is probably what is the mom of Skittles and some sort of cherry pie hybrid or bag seat as best we know. It was often referred to as key lime pie and past this key lime pie really cool cut really cool cut really super resin is more narrow leaf like thin mint. But just resin and lots of gas a little bit of citrus but it's nice it's a really nice cut. But the sunset sure was completely different than the green sure. I'm not sure which came first but when we refer to sunset sure but we're not referring to the green sure. And I have a hard time pronouncing sherbet or sherbet because it's spelled sherbet there's no art. So just wanted to point that part out. People make a big deal of the fact that there's no R in that. Yeah, it drives me nuts. No R in that why people say sherbet. And then we have the gelato which for me is probably like personally in my opinion is the end of this tale. It's the end of the tale of cookies the end of the tale of breeding with cookies at least self breeding with cookies. It is the to me gelato 33 specifically that clone is a fine example of what happens when you in breed cookies and you keep trying to in breed it further. And why I say that is because I've actually self gelato 33 the clone and what you get when you self gelato 33 the clone is gelato 33. You get a very uniform in breadline of gelato 33 and it for people to know gelato 33 it's kind of gassy depending on how you grow it kind of gassy kind of grapey good yielding. Okay resin production but not as good as some of the other gelato is obviously better than most cuts. But the high is very to most people is what we would consider very bland boring, the 20 minutes kind of narcotic not to unique type high. And that's what I saw when in breeding gelato. And like I said 33. The reason I bring this up is because if you self like the 45 or the 41, you're still going to end up with a lot of the examples of what 33 looks like by doing that because it is the most common example. Of what you get from selfing those the hybrid of thin mince and sunset sherbet. And it seems like to me gelato is the clone that took hold the name. What people tended to use because you have like the aside gelato expression you have the mochi gelato expression like these are all different numbers that I'm not really super familiar with. You know, like, they're all these little takes that were supposedly different expressions of gelato or even bag self to bag seed of gelato popping up. And people have taken hold on these specific cuts and just keep in breeding them or crossing them to each other to make more new named gelato's. And to me that's what this market is and whether they're calling it gelato whether calling it sure whether they're calling it, you know, any number of things. It doesn't really matter because that's where we're at and that's why almost everything you're looking at looks the same wedding cake. Another one that people talk about to me is just what happens when you in breed oji kush, you get a shit load of wedding cake, a very bland kind of creamy. Some say cakey but I'd say like a creamy just bland hash plant type oji kush. Very frosty looks great, a little bit of purple to it but it's just in breeding oji kush over and over and over. What about runs and runs supposedly was a gelato 33 cross to either a reverse Skittles or a gelato 33 Hermione Skittles is never really been clearly stated. I made a gelato 33 z cube which is a Skittles back BX3 early on and there was some okay stuff in it but because there was an outcross in the z cube it was more variant. But watching what happens when you cross gelato 33 to Skittles itself the clone ends up being a lot of either Skittles, which is like citrus grapefruit to the extreme. Like, or you get more gelato and in bread cookies. But going in that Skittles direction, you really just get a lot of that citrus Skittles stuff. And while it's different than cookies proper and it's a different direction than gelato, because it's in bread cookie still in a way, even though there were some other outcrosses along the way, because it's in bread cookie still taking Skittles and further directions into itself. We'll just be get more Skittles more uniform versions of Skittles and if you love Skittles that's awesome but if you if you don't want a bunch of Skittles Terps and every single cross that you make or outcross, then it's like a kind of a bad direction to go. You know like Skittles is great for one off crosses but in bread it makes it a lot harder. Yeah, yeah, so you're kind of you're kind of getting to the summary of what I think cry baby mentioned in the chat yesterday, which was, quote unquote cookies gets worse the further down you go. Yeah. And that's that's a paraphrase I guess of what you were just describing. You know what actually, could you talk to some about the flow right at og and the triangle and the differences. I could I mean where do you I mean are we are we just going to pack are we just going to like patch this in at some point. Yep. I mean so do you want me to do you want me to start with the flow writer story. Yeah, they'd be great actually. Okay. So let's see it's it's it's going to be about 53 minutes and I guess yep. All right. So my my experience with the flow writer is is a little weird in the sense that I was growing a bunch of super skunk and super dog hybrids Maui chem dog, what people call the chem 91 these days and things of that nature, right. And I was bringing most of it down to the Bay to a friend of mine. And, you know, he unbeknownst to me at this point in the early 2000s, I really had no idea being stuck in Mendo that there was this like, like cushion craze that had started in LA, and that people were getting ridiculous pricing for cushions in LA. And so around spring 04. My buddy was like, I want you to stop growing everything that you're growing as far as for for commercial sale in California. And I want you to grow this. And I'll take every bit of it and you can give it to a couple close trusted friends, but I don't want it to get out and I want to make sure you give me all of it. Yeah. Right. And so I went down there to the Bay and I got this kush cut and I asked him what it was and he just said it was kush, the real kush. Later on I found out it ended up being what people know now as the flow rider. Yeah. But I got that in, you know, spring like probably April May of 04. Okay. Right. And I started growing quite a bit of it. I didn't realize he was giving me the exact same number that I was getting for everything else. I didn't realize at all that he was literally like getting it for low fours and flipping it for like mid sixes. Yeah. I just killed it. I was kind of getting jacked. But I didn't. But you know, I mean, at the same point, it's like, you know, I felt like it was, you know, I felt like the price I was getting was fair because it was comparable with everything else I was getting. And it was easy and whatnot. And so, you know. And then how long did it take you to get good at growing flow, right? Because kush at the time is new and it's kind of hard to grow. Um, it actually wasn't that hard for me to get good at growing it. That didn't take any time at all, to be honest. What did take some time was figuring out how to get it to yield well. Yeah. In your room, like I got high quality rips of it right away. But obviously, like most of the other stuff that I was growing wasn't necessarily like little bunch of little golf balls everywhere. Exactly. And so I had to, I had to take a different path into growing it. I kind of, we kind of realized that, like, it didn't yield very much unless you, unless you either a grew it really close together in high numbers. Or be, you know, topped it a bunch because it was so dense. No matter how many branches it had, it would kind of throw off golf ball, golf ball, golf ball, golf ball, golf ball. So if you figured out a way to get a bunch of branches that got good light, you'd get a bunch of golf balls and that added up. Yeah. It also seemed like it really liked having an expansive root system. I didn't realize that it wasn't nearly as strong of a rooted plant as other things in terms of watering. So like if you grew it, if you grew it hydro, you kind of like had to, you know, you almost wanted to grow it like on a root mat. Yeah. Something of that nature so that like the roots would all intertwine and grow out into one big thing. Yeah. Or if you grew it in like a fluffy, you know, peat moss perlite or cocoa perlite bed. Yeah. It really liked the roots growing out wide. You know, if you put it in a big pot by itself of any kind of heavy soil or something like that, it didn't drink that fast. Yeah. So you ended up running into issues where like it was difficult to water it as frequently as you might want. And clone. Difficult to clone. You know, and so I, and so that was, so that was basically like, that was my introduction. And you know, our, our buddy who lives down south bitter, you know, it turns out that I got it, you know, I got things relatively early compared to a lot of people. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, but I didn't have, I didn't really at that point in my life, I really wasn't leaving Mendo much, you know, or going much south past the bay. So I just didn't realize that there was this like massive boom going on down in Southern California. It took me a couple of years to sort that out. And it just so happens that the way that ties into cookie is that's the cut that all those guys were running. Yeah. You know, that's the cushion. Huh. What, what, what did you notice in the differences between triangle and the flow right? Exciting. You know, people always say, oh, it's just, it's just the triangle cut when they talk about it. It's definitely not. I, people might get mad at me for saying this or whatever, but I, I think the triangle might be like one of the better all around cushions. Yeah. But I don't think it's the best in like any one area. Okay. If that makes sense, like, yeah, it does a pretty good job of yielding. It's got a pretty good buzz. It's, it's, it, you know, it has, you know, good flavor and all that type of stuff. But it, but it, you know, I don't think it has like the nicest flavor or the nicest high, you know, or anything like that. I think it's just like an all around winner. Now, of course, like that's preference. So like people might be like, oh dude, you just don't know how to grow it right or you don't know this or that or whatever. But really, you know, to be perfectly honest, like, you know, the, the best tasting cushion I ever tried, you know, um, yielded like shit. Yeah. You know, like it was like a three quarters of a, of a, of a pound of light. Yeah. Which I guess when prices were crazy high, made sense for people. You know, um, which, which cut was that? It was, uh, it was that master cut. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but it, you know, it didn't like it also, it was dark. It wasn't very frosty. Um, you know, it didn't look nearly as nice as other ones. Um, you know, type of things. So I didn't really, I didn't really realize like what was going on as far as, um, you know, so I don't, I don't know. I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm an expert on like when exactly triangle Kush first made it to California. Sure. But I, you know, um, I don't, I didn't realize when, when, you know, like when I had flow rider. It's kind of like the same thing that I, with the sour, right? Was that I thought I had OG Kush. Yeah. I didn't realize that there was this mystery of like however many cuts that came out of Florida and then a bunch of s ones and then all these different things like all that info that like is maybe common to us now. I had no idea back then. Yeah. Right. So it was, that was the one that I ran for any number of years. Yeah. Right. And you know, I was told by that group that it came, um, direct from Florida to the bank. Yeah. And I didn't have any reason to, to disbelieve it at that point. Sure. You know, and you know, to be honest, I mean I now, now that we know way more than we did back then. Like I, you know, I don't know what it is. Yeah. But I mean, you're pretty sure that it's not triangle though. And well, the reason, the only reason why I'm pretty sure it's not triangle is because years later, I wanted to see if it was. Yeah. And triangle because of Ricky has a reasonably good like chain of, of provenance. Sure. In terms of there are people you can get it from that can trace how they got it and direct from Ricky bringing it to California. Absolutely. Or even sending it to California before he moved here. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, so, you know, so I grew it side by side. Yeah. With it. And it's not the same thing. Is it similar? Yes. And it's what's funny is like when you were in that era in Southern California when, when dispensaries would have like 25 different kinds of Kush. They were all kind of like variations on the theme. Yeah. It's like splitting hairs. Well, I mean, it's not, you know, they're not always, some of them are more earthy. Some of them are a little bit more lemony. You know, some of, I mean, there was variations amongst them. I just don't think that they were massive. I think a lot of it too was, was people growing in totally different methods and that also becoming like, oh, this is a different cut than yours. Let's compare the pictures. Totally. Sure. And so I think that, you know, I definitely think, you know, you could come up with differences, but it's kind of like, you know, when you see like a batch of kids or something that obviously came from the same parents. Yes. And they're different. They've got some different features. It's not like they're twins or anything like that, but they're definitely all peas from the same pod. Yeah. And so I've grown a ton of kush, both due to interest and due to the fact that it was so popular in California for so long, you know, but it get, and eventually for me, it gets hard to like keep more than two or three or four of them. I agree. Because you sort of, you sort of end up picking the ones that you like for whatever reason, you know, if you're a breeder, maybe you pick the ones you feel pass on the traits the right way. Yeah. So if you're a grower, you probably pick the ones that you're, that you're, you know, you're, you're broker or whatever is happiest with type of thing, you know, all that. And so, but the main thing with the flow rider is that I got it as OG. It was supposedly direct from Florida. And the person that gave it to me is the person that the thin mint accident happened in their room. Yeah. It's just, it's just the, the, and you know, and that, and I don't think that happened for, you know, good four plus years after I got it. Yeah. Right. Like, because so the flow rider was like, was, you know, it just, it just so happens that it's, it's the same cut. Yeah. That was in there. You know, now the other thing is I don't know that I've ever actually gotten a verified that I could be, that I could be totally, you know, sure of. I don't know that I've ever gotten like the first cut that came from Matt Bubba and Josh D that they brought to LA. Correct. Yeah. You know, so I can't compare it to that one. I do think that getting verification on that cut would be damn near impossible. I mean, if you talked, if you talked to Josh D or whatever, like he still has the same cut since 96. Yeah. But because of the, but because of the, the money and the rep and all that other stuff, do I believe it's alive? I think it's probably alive, but like, how would you tell it from one of the three or four SFB cuts? Or how would you tell it from this? Or how would you tell it from the first go? Like, you know, I mean, there's people that are like, this 92 is guaranteed it. Yeah. And this ghost is guaranteed it. And this SFV is guaranteed it. Right. And then you grow those three things next to each other and they're not the same plan. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's keep this more to the cookies thing. Do you have an, it's going to the thousand. What you got? Yeah. So I guess not. So it's a good moment to bring you in as well. So Matt obviously has been also like doing a little recap on the major components of the family. This is probably a good moment to zoom out and talk about the problem at large. Like going back to that cry baby quote of, it gets worse the further down you go with cookies. Yeah. Boy. What's your take on that? Cause I kind of given my take a little bit, but your takes going to be a different and different perspective. What's your thoughts on that in general? You know, what I think, what I think happened. Basically is, I mean, if we wanted to start at the end, you know, some bag seed fell out of some buds that they were people were rolling up into making joints and thin mint was found. Right. And it just so happens that once that was found. Okay. In the bay out of some weed that came from Mendo, you know, people's, you know, there's people in that group that kind of realized they might have had something special. Right. And it was kind of like cookies was sort of like, in my opinion, like the birth of the modern weed scene. Yeah. And what I mean by that is that like it was, it was kind of around the time that IG was really starting up in a way. And so you couldn't smell, you couldn't taste, you couldn't smoke, but you could see. Yeah. And it was visually, I mean, you'll remember Matt, think about, remember how stunning a blueberry was when those pictures were first posted on, you know, on the forums probably 10 years before that. Yeah. You know, the only thing you could see was visual and visually it was super appealing. And so you have a bunch of. Why do you think the demarcation started with Instagram and not at the forum stage since both were presenting pictures and you couldn't smell it? But I think you're right. Like there is a clear demarcation of when things changed. Because IG came about when everybody had started getting a smart phone in their hand. Yeah. It's a good point. Instead of being a desktop. Yeah. And probably the lack of long form, like writing as well. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and a lot of those times there was something, you know, the forums had already sort of had their heyday. And it's kind of like you had to like search them out and find them. Yeah. Type of thing. I mean, it's actually not that much different than, you know, some of the cookie stuff is like, it's also the first era where for decades, you know, people hid their face and hid their involvement and all that. And IG was sort of where people got famous by showing their face. That's correct. Yeah. That's very true. It didn't happen a lot in the forum. And so there was a lot of, that didn't really happen on a lot of the forums. It's not like you saw Sam Scuntman's face. Yeah. It's not like you saw DJ's face. You know, or, you know, the, or any of the people that got, you know, kind of famous back then. It was like you saw some weed pics maybe. But you also, because the way how wide the worldwide web was back then, you had to kind of, it was a little bit more niche. Do you think it had more to do also like coinciding with all the states going online and a bunch of new growers? Sure. I mean, when, when overgrow was going on, there was, when it, you know, when it first started, there was one, there was one medical state. Yeah. Which was California. Yeah. By the time IG was popping, there was a, there was the it was the whole West Coast. Yeah. And times had changed and penalties had gone way down. Yeah. And stuff like that. You know, I mean, really what, and this is, this isn't a diss on him, although we were making, we were joking earlier, but like, you know, every, you know, they, they got burner because of his connections to hip hop and stuff like that and various people he was hustling weed to to promote cookie. Yeah. And he became cookie. He did. Because, because he was the face associated with, you know, now did he have, did he have anything to do with any of the accidents or any of the breeding involved before that? No. No, but we had this. Seed one through 300 or one through 20, one through 80. Well, we did about, I think only like 15 strains, I was 15 seeds on this phenyl hunt. And the number 20 was just popping. When you plant. So we do have that quote from him about breeding. So look, from the very beginning. Okay. Like, and you can give, you can maybe give these guys great credit where, you know, there was a number of things that happened with cookie. One, you got to remember that at this point, Southern California, Los Angeles, all that had become very famous and semi synonymous with Cush. Absolutely. Right. There is just like sports or whatever else. Like, you know, giants, Dodgers or whatever in baseball or, you know, there's regional and especially city rivalries, you know, cookie was the first, like, you know, cookie was, was put the bay on the map. Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was bay area. It was found in the bay area. The people promoting it were all from the bay. It was something that everybody in the bay would, you know, uh, could, which, you know, goes kind of from San Jose to San Francisco to Oakland to, you know, it's kind of like a conglomerate of a bunch of little towns in a few cities. They all could get behind it. Yeah. Right. And so a factor of like IG and it was extreme like, because before, before cookie, you know, looks weren't really all that important in weed as long as it worked. Yeah. Cookie really ushered in the looks are incredibly important. Absolutely. And that persists to this day, you know, and a lot of breeding post cookie became what was visually attractive. And what people kind of found to be visually attractive was things that look like cookies, which is, It was dense. It was frosty. It looks like, I mean, what's funny is that is that if you look at it visually, you know, if you're like, Oh man, it's code. And the other part of it is if you have purplish buds or you have darker buds and you have a bunch of crystal on it, it makes those, that crystal pop. Yeah. Right. It makes it more visually, you know, and like really dense buds is you and I know often they don't have the same type of crystal as like sour diesel. Yeah. Because they don't have as much surface area that crystal to exist on with all the, like, you know, I call it hills and valleys or whatever, but with all the irregularly shaped. Yeah. If you get a perfectly shaped rock hard nugget, the whole thing looks like it's coated in crystal. It looks like it should be really dank. Yeah. You know, and then because there wasn't that much of it, it was going for high dollar. And then Burner gave it to Wiz Khalifa and he gave it to other hip hop artists and they started rapping about it. And they did a good job of making it a cultural thing. Yeah, for sure. And then they had a situation where they had the whole bay behind them because the whole bay had been desperate to like, I mean, the bay was has always been a massive conglomerate of weed hustling. Yeah. Because it's sort of the endpoint for where almost all the weed from the triangle flowed down into by the one on one. Humboldt, Trinity, Mendo, Sonoma, all that. You get on the one on one and you go to the bay, right? But this was the first thing that the bay could claim. Yeah. And that made a big difference. I think so. I would imagine so. You know, and you couldn't smell it. You couldn't smoke it. You couldn't, you know, you couldn't see what was up with it, but you could see it and visually it looked incredible. Yeah. And I think to this day, a lot of people are still breeding for, um, for looks. Yeah. I mean, so. Yeah. Earlier Matt said not so that the first generation, so to speak, of cookies work wasn't wasn't the worst, um, with respect to breeding. But it does get seem to get worse quote unquote, once you get to the later generations, like the gelatoes and rants. What is your take on the that kind of like more recent. Part of cookies. Um, gosh. Well, I'll say this. The people that made cookie famous were not the people that made cookie. Yeah. Right. So the problem is, is that, you know, the problem with cookie is that the people that ended up getting it and hyping it and making it work. They essentially had a cut. Yeah. They didn't have the parents. They didn't have the grandparents. And so cookie had been like a, a conglomeration in my opinion of accidents that happened over probably a seven to 10 year period. Yeah. Right. And, and, you know, the story is very common because, you know, you trace a lot of super famous weed back to its origins and it's bag seat. Yeah. Right. And so whether that's sour diesel or whether that's cookie or whatever, there's bag seed and then there's different people at different times that had things that led to one thing led to another thing. The thing that about cookie that made it more difficult is that the people involved in my opinion did not want anyone going out there and remaking it better than what they had. Yeah. Yeah. That's for damn sure. It's my from, from the very beginning they had no, their own way of making this line to get themselves loot, make themselves famous and build a brand. Yeah. Yeah. They weren't trying to do like constructive breeding per se. Well, I just meant in the sense that like they didn't want anyone else out there to recreate it better than they were. Yeah. And they didn't want to give anyone credit before them who might have had a part in making it. You see what I'm saying? You have a, you have a loose collection of guys that's involved in different ways. There's no contracts. There's no organization. Everyone's trying to make it like this is their shop. Yeah. Right. So, um, so the problem with cookie like I mean, I mentioned, I can't remember. Maybe it was on. I can't remember whose post it was on, but I kind of view like, you know, when animal cookies came out, animal was kind of like, they took fin mint and they threw it on Kush, right? Yeah. And it was cookie, but it was cushy and it had some potency and all that, right? The problem that they faced is that they kept, they tried to make a whole family based on one cut. Yeah. And so they started in breeding really strongly. And I think what they did is they made mistakes in breeding early on. Because they were just learning about what they were up to, right? Mm-hmm. And they didn't know how to recover from those. Yeah. It would have taken knowing how to actually breed to recover. That's like, my main thing was that yes, people made crosses, but breeding is a totally different thing. Well, you also have to realize too that like, at the same point in time that this was all going on. Okay, because there was a number of things with cookie that were, you know, or let's just say components that we believe are in cookie over time. Yeah. That just happened that were herm accidents. Yeah. And in that era before, you know, pre-cookie, everything was still basically males and females. Yeah. And herm accidents. And then when they started breeding with cookies, right? That was sort of the beginning of the reversal era. Yeah. Right? I talked a bit about that in the beginning about how like during my era, reversals were really looked down on, but as we got into like the mid to late 2000s, even into like 2013, 14, because it was a bunch of new growers and spray was available to buy, it wasn't as like demonized as it was during our era. So a lot of people were able to do that and not get the pushback that we got at the beginning, if that makes sense. You know, and so they weren't really like really what they were doing is they had no interest in releasing accurate information. Yeah. What they had interest in is releasing things that they were going to make a bunch of money off the pounds of it. They were going to control who had it. They were going to get kickbacks and build a brand based off of it. You know, and and so that is very different from like our weed nerd of like, Oh, well, how exactly did it happen? Yeah, exactly. They had zero interest in being like, Oh, well, you know, it fell into our laps. That doesn't sound as good, right? You know, and then after it fell into our laps, we took the thin mint and we started doing stuff with that one cut. And they also had so many different phenotypes. Phenotypes. Well, the other part of it too is that, you know, when we talk about they, right? Different people in the very small circle that they were in had different bits and pieces of information. Sure. And they weren't exactly free to share with each other either. Yeah, I mean, there's still competition going on. Because nobody wanted to get cut out. Yeah. So it's not just like they were it's almost like with a lot of those guys, like the truth doesn't come out because it's more like a circular firing squad. Yeah. If somebody was to, if somebody was to like up and out, you know, it doesn't matter what member and point fingers at that member and lay out exactly what they did and didn't do right? That might even be all true. That person could point at them and release parts that they're not super enthused about other people knowing. It's kind of like the mutually assured destruction that we saw when dying breed became terpogs from dying breed. They just started carrying each other out publicly. There was a lot of, you know, and so, I mean, there's even a situation, you know, it's like where, you know, how you start mentioning names or whatever. One part about discussing cookie, to be frank, is that cookie now is a is a big clothing company and a, you know, a multi-state, an MSO, a multi-state operator that is very intent on when we get, goes fully federally legal getting bought out by somebody huge. Yeah. And there's an enormous amount of money involved in cookie. Indeed. You know? And there's people in cookie, you know, that are a pretty big part of, like, the formation of it, but maybe aren't represented nearly as well in terms of, like, stock position or whatever or, you know, within the company. You know? Yeah, for sure. Like, Burner had nothing to do with any of it. What? But, you know, but they picked him to do what he's very very good at. It must have been his looks. Which is promote. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's good at promoting things. He is very good at promoting things. He's good at hyping things up. He was good at getting the babe to be behind him because being behind him is being loyal to the babe. Yes. That's very true. You know? And then as a result of that, there was other members in cookie that got angry whenever. They just have this running joke that people when they went to buy cookie, you know, they bought their eighth, you know, in the bay at, like, the dispensaries or whatever, they thought that, like, it would have been hand-watered by Burner. Yeah, hand-selected and watered and manicured. You know? They, you know, and they actually, even they actually gave him the clothing company because they didn't want him to have the weed. Makes sense. But then they got angry because a clothing company has way less issues as far as finance or federal problems or anything like that. And all of a sudden, they're making a bunch of money selling $150 sweatshirts. Yep. And these other people are stuck running, you know, semi-gray area, 215-era warehouses. Yeah. Yeah. And they're making cash, but it's not like, you know, it's not banked money like a clothing brand. Exactly. And then when the money came in, when the investment capital came in, they wanted a frontman to promote it. Yeah. You know, like everybody, you know, like everybody sees Burner all over cookie and that's intentional because you don't want to see the people behind cookie. Yeah. Because they're just, they're just your normal old school. I wouldn't even say normal or old. I remember two of them were very young and kind of good-looking people, but they just happened to work with the feds. So they were put in the back. Yeah. Or, you know, they were younger people that were related to those older people. Exactly. And so as a result of that, they had access to investment capital. Mm-hmm. You know? And so now it's all about like the problem with cookies, when you talk about cookie, there's all distinct things. There's the cookie strain. And sherbet and all that, which like is right in our wheelhouse of like weed history and all that other type of stuff. But cookie today has very little to do with genetics. That's amazing. It's a clothing brand and it's a series of dispensaries. Yeah. And as you well know, this isn't any secret now, but almost all of their breeding is outsourced. I think that most people that watch this that are new do not know that part. That cookies proper doesn't make seeds. They have other places that make seeds, white-label seeds that they release under cookies. I mean, let's put it this way. Because it makes their MSO situation a lot simpler. Yeah. They don't even grow weed. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. That's the wild part. They don't. They have contracts with third parties. Yeah. Where they provide the strains and in some cases and they have the right of first refusal. Hmm. They don't grow weed. Cookies doesn't have big indoors or greenhouses or outsides or whatever. They contract with farmers. Right. What they control is the clothing line, the store and the Mylar's. The Mylar. That's funny. That's how you that's kind of how the RUNS people did it where it's not official unless it's in their Mylar. Yeah. They control. So touching weed makes your life a lot more complicated. It does. Because that's the federally illegal part. That's the sketchy part. That's the this. Having a clothing company and a dispensary where you're just not, you know, so you're brokering. You're brokering basically. Can I just interject here and say that I think this is a really good account of the social, historical, technological, commercial conditions for the emergence of cookies. But I kind of like to bring it back to the breeding side of things again and say another prompt from Crybaby was the importance of uniqueness in cannabis. And I think Matt, you wanted to raise NO5 Hayes as a good counter example. Yeah. So this is a perfect time for not to delve into this a little bit more. But a counter example maybe of a way of a strain or a project that was across of a few things like cookies, but went a completely different direction. One of the best examples for people to learn would be NO5 Hayes because it was a true F1 hybrid. Despite Hayes being a couple of lines of different Sativa types, generally speaking what an F1 hybrid is is taking two distinctly different genotypes and crossing them. And in this case Hayes and NO5 one being an Afghan one being a typically equatorial Sativa type crossing those two brings a lot of diversity and not only that we found that in real F1 hybrids some of the most amazing gold was found. You could talk about some of the NO5 Hayes different cuts and how they brought uniqueness versus what cookies is. Okay. So I've said this before I think but I think that NO5 Hayes is probably by far the most successful and impactful commercially available seedline that was ever created. Why did it not end up like cookies? Well, a number of reasons. First you know, Neville made the hybrid. And so there was one person that made the hybrid and he had the parents for years. It was cookie like like I said earlier cookie cookie was found in a bag seed. Yeah. The people that popularized cookie didn't have the parents. Right exactly. And it was it was accidentally made rather than intentionally made. Now the other thing about it. It's also entirely possible. I think it's likely although it can't be proven. I think it's likely that NO5 Hayes was an S1 Okay. Okay, where as you were mentioning before NO5 Hayes was an S1 of two vastly different genetics coming together. Okay, and so this could this could also tie into something else which you know we we've talked about before but bears repeating NO5 Hayes because it was so wild because it was it was two totally different things crossed together. It had a really low floor and a really high ceiling which meant that you could find absolute junk all the way to I mean there's still probably 8 or 12 cuts of NO5 Hayes that are hoarded that are 30 plus years old. I don't think there's another line out there where there's as many living cuts that are that old that are still kept because of their value and a major part of that too in why it differs from cookies because you know like we're talking about cookies you know gelato exists sure it exists all these little different nuances or takes on it even if they're hybrids but with the variation and the high floor low ceiling that NO5 Hayes had you were seeing variation in breeding again like you could take that NO5 Hayes direction one of those directions S1 it and still have tons of variants. Well maybe we should talk about this for a second. So cookie came about by one bag seed and then a tiny group of people trying to control its rise and not give people access to either the information or even the cut to do with what they wanted and NO5 Hayes was totally different there was people in America that found an amazing NO5 Hayes like say in New York or South Florida or something and they wouldn't share it and so some of those people that they couldn't get it from those dudes they just went over to Amsterdam and they bought the exact same seed line from Neville there was a 7 year period imagine if cookie came out and for 6 or 7 years after that you could go to the breeder where they found it and bought the exact same seed line and hunt yourself we're not exactly sure when NO5 died or the formula for NO5 Hayes ended but it seems like it ended in somewhere in the mid to late 90s but that literally means that there was a 7 or an 8 year period where even if you couldn't get a hold of the cut itself because it was held on too tight you could go buy 100 or 200 to 300 seeds of the exact same genetics and start hunting it yourself which is how all these phenos started happening because they weren't all bagged seeds and F1s off one cut like happened with cookie right? they could go find full sisters and so there wasn't one small group that had control over it and was like lying about what the genetics were you could literally go buy the exact same genetics from the dude so I think that's a major difference in itself and then obviously if if NO5 Hayes is a full F1 diversity in the line made by a male and a female like there's a lot more there's a lot, as you were saying before there's a lot more directions you can take it than a potential S1 bagged seed and bagged seed to bagged seed to bagged seeds sure it's a bag, yes now not every bagged seed that created cookies was an S1, some of them were hybrids sure it was just a vastly different it's almost like with cookie there was an intentional breeding in the beginning and then a few years later something hermed onto something else and then that thing got grown for a few years and then that thing hermed onto something else and then that thing got grown for a few years and then that thing hermed and then they found thin mint out of it and so it's just different and so as a result of that you know cookie and then beyond that I mean even after like NL5 haze stopped being a thing for a second in the sense that you couldn't get the exact seed line within a few years of that happening mango haze and nevels haze and super silver haze all came out and that dominated the scene again and still to this day like super silver haze, jack via amnesia haze dominate that scene to this day almost like cookies did over here and they have like literally kind of bred amnesia in the same directions like amnesia is amnesia no matter what you cross to it so you know you start looking at you start looking at Sherb or you start looking at gelato at all this different stuff and at some point in all of that they recross it directly back to the same cut most cookie breeding involves one cut it doesn't mean they might not have out-crossed it but once they out-cross it into something they typically hit it back again or the out-cross is usually already a component of what they were crossing it's else so what happened with you know with cookie or like let's put it this way nevel because he had parents and was able to make a massive amount of seeds he was able to take the line in all kinds of different directions cross it to different things and make completely new lines out of it that had their own thing where cookie all started from basically like one bag seed and so their method was crossing things back to that same thing popular and they wanted to reiterate it well they also came into it in different way like they never had the parents they didn't have the parents it might be a good point for me to ask and it's kind of like it's kind of a slightly different take but I'd like to hear from both of you were there any positives to come out of cookies like from any part of it like what do we get in terms of like lessons or things that are still useful and could be worked with well I mean I might have a different take on this than Matt cookies made in the weed world at least burner jiga shurbinsky powers up everybody basically but the guy who the accident happened in his room they all got extremely famous within weed world most of the time if you mention those people to anybody with a decent knowledge of modern weed history they know who you're talking about cookies created cookies started and it's probably that one cut led to one of the largest current brands in the United States were you going to say a thousand I was just going to say so yeah it's obviously benefited the individuals involved all the individuals involved cookies has a brand you know I won't say his real name but shurbinsky has an entire brand it's basically made their careers right and since that came out they've made an enormous amount of money marketing clothing marketing basic hybrids and then on top of that because cookie got so famous and the look became so popular Matt can speak to this a bit an enormous amount of new breeders decided I'm going to try to make my own variation on this theme and so for the next decade at least I would say 2010 to 2020 easily and maybe even a bit more the most common hybrid in cannabis is cookie some kind of cookie cross to some kind of cush yeah so is it charitable take framing of what you just said that cookies encouraged a whole bunch of people to get into making seats no I don't think that's true well because you know what I think happened there and this might be a little bit of a tangent but you know it used to be very very difficult to be an American seed breeder and have a market most people like say take DNA or somebody like that Americans who wanted to start a seed company they literally up they got a bunch of stuff from America and they moved to Amsterdam yeah Matt to throw people off his trail wasn't your first website .nl yeah I wanted people to think I was a Dutch company just in case so IG not only did IG explode you know cookie in the sense that like because it was so visually appealing it also gave a lot of small breeders a way to access customers a way to promote their seeds a way for a bunch of small hobbyists with garages to create a seed company and then market those seeds and then because in the in the in the 2010s and on 215 and all these medical places had happened so much there was this huge cup era mm-hmm okay of high time starting to throw lots of cups in California monthly cups monthly cups in California in Colorado and all these different places so then all of a sudden you had a situation where a lot of these small breeders not only could promote themselves on IG but they could buy a booth at one of these cups and it would almost be like a flea market gray area swat me mm-hmm where they could get in front of customers and start selling their package seeds to people I mean Matt and I joke that probably like 95% of today's breeders came up in that environment sure and so what are I wouldn't say 95 I would say 5% 95 came up in the environment of IG that's what I mean yeah like 95% of new breeders you know like we're you know maybe 5% those old schoolers deciding they finally could like do it a little bit more publicly and not just give it to friends and 95% of them were people that were like man I can I can get on IG I have 5,000 followers I 10,000 followers I can announce a drop I have a way to communicate with them I have a way to stay a little bit anonymous I can also get booths and go sell them directly and so part of cookie's popularity was because since cookie was the most popular thing when this was all going on the easiest thing for these new breeders to do was to use cookie in their hybrids yeah to gain popularity so it almost went hand in hand yeah I can see that you know like if it had happened 10 years before it would have been kush and diesel yeah that's really interesting from intersection I mean what about you Matt what do you see as possible positives coming up of cookies so I think like one of the biggest lessons we have with cookies like the positive I would take from it is learning that there is a way where at first it was learning a whole new method of advertising for people who sold seeds and adapted in a whole new environment in the first place so that in itself is a good thing because in a business that lasts a long time you always have to recreate yourself in some way shape or form to keep people interested and to keep your own interest cookies taught me a lot about how the market works and how the market works when a lot of money is thrown into an industry where there was not a ton of money especially coming from the American side there wasn't a lot of money put into marketing so we learned how that works and we also learned how it works when you take a specific line it is fairly new and run it into the ground 90 ways to Sunday and where that kind of takes the whole market and that people can be convinced that something is new and different even though it looks exactly the same as the last thing that was shown now I don't know if that's necessary for the better or worse but any new data points in my mind are good even if they are null data points or negative data points where it impacts the scene negatively I could make I could make a point to that too where I could say that I would say in the previous era to cookie mostly what drove popularity to a large degree was potency taste and scent especially in the sour era sour could look kind of funky and ugly it could have a lot of stick a lot of stent could be stemmy all that and people would crack open the bag and get a whiff of that nose and look up and say this will work right Cush became popular because it was very potent it had a distinctive gassy type nose that you could sort of roll around in your mouth after you hit it right a lot of people when they first experienced Cush they'd smoke it a little and then they'd realize that the aftertaste they could sort of like roll around on their tongue and it was very potent it got you more more known than a lot of the stuff that was around it at the time it was very cerebral high you know and so what cookies did is cookies which in my opinion still holds today today it's about testing and looks those are the top two primary considerations for breeding you know if you compare it to the Barbie era for women during a certain era women kind of changed the way that beauty looked from the era in the 60s when Barbie or 50s when Barbie popped up women were expected to kind of have this kind of figure in form and people got used to seeing this as what beauty is right and I think this kind of impacted what we became in that cookies had a very specific look and this became what was beautiful in cannabis which didn't necessarily represent the high or any of those other things but images what was important just like with the Barbie era and what we ended up was this is what most people's concept of beauty is in weed and what they expect to look like purple extremely resinous like lots of resin glands and stocks and you know dense dense purple nuggetry and that's what people expect of beauty of cannabis and it's defined in a way that it's very hard to change the market's idea of what real beauty is in cannabis in the high I mean the other part of it too is that you know it also sort of like brought along a little bit of the primacy of indoor because most of the cookie stuff was being grown in indoor grows and warehouses in the bay and people would try to take it and like put it outside or put it in depths or put it in full sun and it grew like crap you know but for someone that was growing a bunch of two foot tall plants on rock wool you know it worked and so I think what happened is is that because those people were interested in branding and marketing and all that they were perfectly fine with the look they were focusing the effect and once they lost the effect they didn't really have the skill set because that's not who they were to find it again there was a potential if things had gone in a slightly different way where they might have been able to like marry that look with a good effect but they just lost it early on they lost the effect of Oji Kush which was the best so they lost that effect and the look was easy to find but once you know as anybody knows if you start picking your winners based on testing and looks you'll quickly get to like a very kind of bland bud so this is a good moment I think to say in the last, in the first cookies episode that you two did you had a little thought experiment that was what can you do with cookies as a little breeding project right and I think what would be cool for now for today's episode is how would you what are possible reconstructions of it I'll have very different opinions than Matt so Matt can go first so if I was going to be reworking something very purple with lots of stocks that had oil filled heads for me is super important and a lot of people don't realize that in the cookie stuff like it's a lot of stocks but not a lot of oil in the heads which is why you don't get super terpy cookie stuff in my opinion you just don't so I would choose something that would be purple and as a man that loves purple myself I lean towards a potent blueberry if I were going to go this direction I would want it terpy a good Afghani blue type to take that over and maybe even in the direction of let's say a Bubba blueberry would even be a better direction for me and something that I could take in a hundred different directions keep breeding it and out crossing it and not have the inbred nature even though blueberry does have some inbred nature to it I would use blue bonnet because I already know that doesn't and kind of cheat that way and go up and make a very dense purple plant with tons of turps that's how I'd redo it I knew you were going to say that so I'm going to ask you what if you had to do it without the blue oh Jesus so I would probably go I would go deep chunk I would take it to the deep chunk route look at not so's face I know because deep chunk is not terpy and it's notoriously dominant in what you cross it to but I've also crossed it to things that is dominated by and only passes it's resin production with with those glands so I would go deep chunk cross to Tom Hill's haze because I've actually seen it done and it looks like cookies and it's kind of done a cheap nice that entire last minute might have just been to just to make Tom mad at him so we'll see what happens how about you not so what Tom's work needs is is to turn it permanently purple that's what he wants that's what he's after that's what he's after is this beautiful his whole career if he could just take his life work and make it purple for him he would just fall over and die I would say I mean I'll have a two part thing to it one is that because I come from a very different world than Matt in the 90's we would have we would have loved cookie okay because when you're growing gorilla and you're growing shade grown weed that doesn't get full sun and you're hiding it man's need is and stuff like that a strain that gets dense a strain that doesn't need very much light to get dense cookies is kind of famous for like not liking sun and not liking food yeah right so it would it would like a cookie type blind would be amazing if we ever had to go back to the man's need is because it would yield really well it likes being shade grown I mean there was people that got cookies early on that used to like grow tables of something else and then on the outskirts of that table where there was only partial light they would load it down with cookies yeah because it would still yield really well and they started getting amazing yields per light because cookies could kind of grow in half shape yeah so a strain that would do really well like that and stay short and dense up and look really pretty that you could grow like in not ideal conditions we would have loved back then as far as like where what you could do with it now how would you recreate it no recreate what would be the not not so cookies what would be the not so cookies yeah how would you make a purple well I mean that could be maybe giving up some of the some of the secret sauce or whatever of what was in it but I think if you were going to remake it you know the idea would be to try to keep it somewhat wide right so you know you know you had cushion right so you'd add some type of I would try to go with one of the ones that we think of is like an original like the flowrider or the TK you know if you could figure out which one was the actual one that Josh brought out just because it wouldn't be necessarily an S1 it would be a hybrid sure right so for instance to expand on that for a second a lot of people when they S1'd a lot of cush cuts the cush cuts that ended up being nice in those S1's kind of looked exactly like the mother cut yeah because those cuts were already bag seeds and then when you reverse like one of the hybrids say like what CSI did with the TK right all of a sudden you get a much wider variety of phenotypes that pop out of it right it's not just the good ones look exactly like the mom yeah I guess what I'm saying in a long winded way is I would try to create it without bottlenecking it because I think that's what ended up happening to it is it got bottlenecked way too early that's cheating what would you recreate it with without using the same components it's hard because you mentioned that you might cross it I can see why you use deep chunk take an adventure because you're trying to figure something short and dense that isn't cush and isn't bubble I almost went purple number one and really fucked it up and then you have a situation where it kind of has it has some how do you remake it without using cush without using any of the purple strains that were famous you don't even have to make it smell the same but it doesn't even have to smell taste or at the same height because that's not what people even judge because he's on anyways imagery how would you make something appear the same what route would you take without using the same components without using the same components I could hit you upside the head with an obvious purple right now you could use that's a purple afghan I mean the thing about it is is that if you want it to look the way that it looks I mean everything I think of I'm like oh it's kind of related to it in some way not necessarily because assume that it is made with what they say it's made with just Urkel and GDP and all that you know you know we there's actually I think I'm I think I had something to say and then it got like re-tangent we broke the robot we broke the robot I mean I was thinking you'd go Mendo perps cross to the Maui or something like that well that but the problem is that at least when it comes to certain branches of the family I think that's in there already yeah we haven't talked about that at all you know because that the problem is the biggest issue with cookie is that because everybody tries to muddy the waters on what's in it it's very difficult to get a straight answer out of any of them even if you've known some of them a really long time sure right and what they're going to do is if you if you start talking definitively about what you think in there they're going to jump on the parts that they that might be a little bit off that they disagree with they disagree with and then use that to discredit the whole thing you know and part of the reason why Matt's tried to get me to talk about cookie a lot and I have been hesitant to simply because you know like I said there's a branch of cookie that wants to be a multi-billion dollar corporation that gets gobbled up by somebody huge and all these people get payouts so it's really difficult to discuss cookie right because there's that element to it sure it's not just you're not just going to like anger a few people I think this whole episode is going to be that and as Matt well knows you know even on small people and when I say small I mean like smaller compared to like the cookie monolith or whatever you know a lot of the reason why Matt gets flack in public is because he outs somebody's truth and then they feel like that while it might be true it's also affecting their pocket book sure so the way that it doesn't affect their pocket book is by making everybody know that Matt right is a whole scumbag and you shouldn't believe anything that comes out of his mouth we have to discredit the messenger right at all costs and this is like 80% of your online battles and it's probably going to be this episode definitely ignited is you saying something that is generally well known amongst the small group of in the know type people in the cannabis community but you know maybe well known to the larger community yeah right like even though it might be well known within a few thousand people they don't want the larger can a community to hear that correct yeah so then they attack you like crazy you know you've seen this recently yourself like oh yeah it's not it makes it difficult and you know and some of these people have deeper pockets and more political power just have all the time in the world to be demons I will say that what's funny about it and I mentioned it before but like literally the person who the thin mint accident happened in their room is probably the least famous cookie person yeah yeah I'd say so you know it's probably the least yeah I can yeah and I can see why you know the stories always come back to this because cookies embodies a lot of what the industry is going through as a whole and typifies some of the current inclinations right of the industry for better or worse yeah big time and in the mystery of strains it definitely helps with that because mystery drives sales and there is some mystery to cookies like there is disagreements between what it is and what people say it is I mean there is a thing I posted on my IG a while back it's like a New Yorker cartoon and they were talking about history you know and I'm paraphrasing here but there's a guy that's like oh I remember it differently in a way that paints me in a positive light and gives me the credit yeah right and so that's the thing that Matt and I run into all the time with talking weed history the vast majority of people in weed are interested in history that makes them look good and buttresses their pocketbook or you know even with old timers whose history is decades ago their interest in the history is how can it benefit me today right now and in the future yeah there's a lot of that and you get these conversations that go on and the first conversation is pretty open and forward and then the next couple once they realize that there's some money or some rep to be made all of a sudden the story starts changing and people start getting huffy and angry about stuff and how dare you bring up that I contradicted myself a month before on the episode that we talked about it this is what I'm currently promoting yeah so it's like you know do I know the entire story inside and out with all details no but I'm not even sure the core people know the entire story inside and out because they all hid parts of it from one another intentionally yeah and so everybody has pieces like for instance the guy that the accident happened in he's been trying to recreate it using pieces that the other people didn't have or didn't know about because different people got brought in at different times you know and as I start talking about the truth and there's like big brands that are all going to be all pissed off at me oh yeah and their investors what do their investors want return on their investment ROI baby what do the people want to be rich and famous and have money yeah I mean Matt and I joke you know but this is very much this is very much a cookie phenomenon where you know most real breeders are somewhat antisocial maybe have a touch of the tism don't like to be that public and you know and the cookie era brought in weed celebrity yeah where all the sudden it became very important where some of these guys are at an art gallery in LA they're flying out to New York they're smoking joints dressed to the nines they're hiring photographers to literally make them look good and sexy and cool while they're checking out their plants I don't even know how you afford that but yeah you do that a lot they turn going to the garden into a photo op yeah they go to their friends gardens that they don't even own they look like a photo op that they're checking on their plants this is true Matt's laughing about it but like one of the things that if you start getting photographed in LA and then San Diego and in New York and flying around and at all these conferences and doing all this stuff all the time it's very obvious you're not actually growing to growers it's very obvious to growers it's very obvious because in order to do a good job you are married I don't know any of us who are able to take a vacation for more than two days without freaking out it's just what it is it's the life and so it's not like you can't leave ever or have some fun you can't time it to where like you can get a free week or a free 10 days or something like that here or there but what happened is is that a lot of these guys are the front man they are the promotion wing of this conglomerate right and they hire out the work yeah so that gives them the freedom a cool hat and to catch the smoke going around their face just so as they're standing outside the club you know and they're touring you know a lot of times they'll hook up with friends to go tour facilities and never mention it's not their facility yeah and so it gives people the sense that these guys have big things going on all over the place well yeah girls let them put e-cigarettes in their bum hole and make ads out of it what it is is that weed really wasn't ready for modern marketing techniques no so we were extremely susceptible to very basic modern marketing techniques and since there wasn't any celebrities we were very susceptible to all of these sort of new school celebrities and the way that you become a celebrity in weed is by being associated with OG that just so happened to be near some strain that became famous in my opinion that's the classic way to become famous and often times the person that speaks up publicly about it becomes the most well known even if they just got the cut relatively early it had nothing to do with it oh yeah you know I mean going back think about how much I mean this might get people this might get him mad at me or whatever but I don't care think about how intent Sam Gumpman was of being on all of the early forums and battling so that his view on what happened was the view oh yeah for sure and it wasn't like there was four or five other dudes that were all there that were competing with him no so eventually when you repeat something like that over and over and over again he gets pushed into the fabric of the tail yes and it's very hard to dislodge yeah it's like a turn to punch bowl just keeps popping back up you know and so you know but it's one of those things where now back then he didn't show his face and he would have different monikers on different on different forums yeah but everybody knew not everybody we knew you know I mean that's what we were talking about earlier but like there's a lot of stuff that's fairly common knowledge within a very relatively small group of weed insiders yeah that the public is totally ignorant of and that's kind of why I wanted to do this episode today because like a lot of the people coming in don't understand why we have the take on cookies being just inbred garbage and why like when new seed makers and I definitely specify the difference between breeders and seed makers because there's a major difference when new seed makers like come to me and they're like hey check out this fucking forum cross to og I'm doing this is breaking this is going to break new ground and I just don't have a good response for them and sometimes I'm just like and maybe you should try something different because that's been done a hundred ways to Sunday and they don't get it I mean I don't you know I get hesitant to mention names on here because inevitably like it'll be a 15 second clip that gets cut out and the person will be waiting and I'm all angry but you know being that cookies and kush has been blended by lots and lots and lots of different people it is very unlikely that by blending these things you're going to come up with something truly new and unique exactly we have this running joke on the discord where like you know we'll post pictures of that new new and it looks like the same ultra dense frosted purplish cookie type weed that we've been seeing for the better part of the last 14 years I mean to me it doesn't matter if you call it jealousy if you call it cookies if you call it whatever cheetah piss whatever name they have for it today it's always some form of inbred and crossed cookies maybe with a single outcross somewhere in there to try to give it that it just doesn't do it I'll throw something else out there for a second you know and maybe this is controversial or what not but I actually respect okay burner and cookie going and trying to work with our buddy Bowdy and I'll tell you why okay the reason is is because that stuff is long overdue for someone to take it and to take it in a totally different direction they've already done the seed junkie they've already done the crisp compound they've already done as many variations on the theme as you can you can have other breeders out there being like I'm going to cross cherry pie to kush but not this kush you know like I mean they didn't really do it but really what cookies needs is like they can be like hey Bowdy cross it to this weird Cambodian you have take it somewhere way different you know what we want out of this cookie we want the cookie to bring down the flowering time and add some density to this larphe ass bullshit you know what I'm saying and take it from 18 weeks to 12 that's what we're looking for cookie needs to go in a totally different direction even if that direction is risky yeah right because do you think that the corporation itself has actually recognized this properly well the problem that they faced is that Bowdy and cookie are such different pieces of the canapai both fan bases were sort of insulted that the other one worked with the other one like it didn't go over well you know as soon as they announced the as soon as they announced the shit like our homie got mad black burner had to turn off comments you know it was basically like you know Luke Skywalker being like I'm in a bond with the empire but I'm not going to try to change them at all I'm not going to try to like save my dad or anything like that like they've won so I might as well hitch my horse to that guinea and go with it right and so it didn't go over very well but it's like if you want something that's not same same because it's almost like if I wanted to take it in a musical direction what cookie needs is cookie needs to go in a totally different genre direction yeah think about every music thing with music that's new and unique fast forward 10 or 15 years and there's a million bands making slight variations on the same theme but it's not new it's the same well traveled shit they're just trying to extract more money and then eventually the kids are like this isn't cool and they move on to something else and then they may dubstep and ruin it all well I mean if you want to look at it and I don't know if I've used this for example a bunch privately but I think one of the most important bands in my lifetime in America was Nirvana no check it out dude because I'm a little bit older than you alright before Nirvana came out everything in rock and everything on the radio and everything on MTV was poison deaf leopard winger enough's enough hair bands out the wazoo right that was all it was Cinderella you know like great white shark striper winger warrant and there are all variations on the same theme and then Nirvana comes out and those motherfuckers lost their job except for Bon Jovi and maybe one other like guns and roses and Bon Jovi survived everybody else died they were like this isn't cool anymore Motley Crew Motley Crew survived but what I'm saying is it went from literally dozens upon dozens of bands that were basically variations on the same theme to two or three surviving and the entire 90's post-Nirvana was different musically so you cannot like them but it was like after Nirvana every music executive went to Seattle and signed every single band they could find and everything after sounded like Eddie Vetter but they did because they realized that the mood had shifted yeah you weren't going to be able to get a big band in acid wash jeans and an entire bottle of Aquanet playing a huge heart shaped guitar yeah and you would have a rocking tune and then a power ballad you know like that formula was done they needed a new formula speaking of new formulas I wanted to get into this before we like totally forget it let me see how I bring it back but hold just one second let me let me just finish that thought what cookies needs okay is cookies absolutely needs to step out of its comfort zone and be like what are the qualities in this weed that we could add on to totally different weed that would then be the sum of its parts because or better than the sum of its parts because for the last 14 years they've been inbreeding and trying to create various variations on the same theme and now it's all cookies it's all gelato it's all runts which is cookies and gelato it's all the same incestuous family yeah and a million different names attached to it right and that's going to fade right so what people need to do is they need to take the useful parts of cookie and be like genetically what can we add like because cookies is so dense maybe we can add it to like some really fluffy stuff and like solidify it a little bit maybe we can add it to this maybe we can do this with it like they need to step out of their box they're not going to be able to keep just rebranding the same weed for the next 20 years I don't know exactly when people are going to move on from cookie but they will because they've moved on from every other fad or phase that we've ever had you know what I'm saying I mean imagine if like we were still listening to warrant yeah some people do it's horrible right but it's like but most people will listen to it it's like that's what they were listening to when they were in their teens in their 20s and it just reminds them of their youth that's true right it's like that's kind of how music goes it becomes like you know like it becomes for old people yeah what are the new kids into right so taking that you and CSI have been working on some things and some of them I've been working on it with like the F1 derp stuff we've been trying to go in and figure out some things with the F1 derp because it was so lauded by some and then some just basically said it didn't exist we wanted to see what happens when you cross this to your flow right of OG cut so he took that you guys crossed it and we're going to see what comes from that we also have the 56 day headband cut cross to the F1 derp to see how that direction goes with some kind of headband derp but mainly with UN CSI you had given him your LA Cush headband cut and we've talked about it I think there's a whole episode maybe even on it but if you want to talk about some of these crosses and how it'll cross to say the Bubba Cush the different Tams, the Bubble Gum second to go over a few of these sure I mean just so people know I've been sharing some of my CSI so prolific that I've been sharing some of my cuts with him and then we've been doing some you know some intentional breeding and then just like with every other breeding throw in some other stuff in there that you think right but so it's a mix of like making some cool seeds but it's also a mix of well I wonder can we recreate certain things right so as people know or don't know the 56 which a lot of people don't call it that a lot of people just call it straight headband or the murder cat that would be made by somebody else I despise that when Cush was really tightly controlled and worth a lot of money and so Cal there was this cut and there was because it was worth so much money and because LA is LA there was some violence around this cut and it ended up going to the Bay and they wanted to like work with it in the Bay but they didn't want to bring a bunch of heat that was occurring in Southern California up to them so they decided to rename it headband to throw people off the trail some people called it the 56 because it was done in roughly 8 weeks so it's kind of one of those cuts that a lot of people know is headband but it was one of, now you ask different people what it is and they'll be like oh well it was the Cush and that's why people get so upset at it that while it doesn't have my favorite Cush flavor it is by far the most potent Cush cut I know of yeah it's very good I got it in 06 there's other people that have it that got it from basically the same crew but it's floated around different people call it different things one of Matt's buddies has it there's a few other people that have had it and worked with it a little bit it is it is a really good extremely potent some people find it too potent to smoke which I know sounds like a lie but it has this thing which is strange for an indica but Matt experiences this sometimes it gives people extreme anxiety oh yeah they call it the fear the fucking fear it gets people high enough that they get nervous yeah so so we have that that was crossed to the F1 Derb we have the Flowrider OG crossed to the F1 Derb so those are basically what that is since the Flowrider I know for sure it's the Cush and Cookie because of when and who I got it from and what happened after that so the Flowrider crossed to F1 Derb is sort of like an attempt to mix some of the pure generations of strains that led to Cookie yeah maybe it's not the exact the claimed generation the claimed lineage to see if it really pans out yeah it's a little bit more it's an attempt to do some intentional work where you get a chunk of seeds that isn't just like one bag seed yeah and it's a way to look at I know CSI argues me on this all the time it is a way to check out the parentage whether he likes David or not you can see the expressions and traits of parents in those lines so technically you can see what the sisters and brothers would look like so I will say that I could explain some of it the F1 Derb is the way that it was named and what it is and how it all works it's been created intentionally mysterious yeah it was kind of the secret sauce to let out what was part of it yeah and so that could be a way to get some Cookie-like stuff and see what's going on now what's cool about the F1 Derb is that it has color and it has Terps and it has some unusual stuff like that going on hopefully by crossing it to the to the Flowrider and to the 56 you'd get some potency and some of that classic look to it so we'll see what happens with that the 56 is at the very early or one of the earliest Kush cuts to come out of LA and the Flowrider is another one of my favorites and it's another early one and it's definitely the one in Cookie alright how about your LA Kush Bubba Kush the headband Bubba Kush the LA like I've talked about it intensely it's one of my favorite diesel cuts so what the Bubba would probably add is it would probably shorten up the flowering time a lot of time some of these hybrids that people are running of the LA they can run 10, 11, 12, 13 weeks sometimes and so by crossing it to Bubba you're crossing it to something that's potent and it would hopefully maybe add a little density maybe shorten the flowering time and both cuts are pretty potent in different ways on their own we have one that we've seen quite a bit of which is the Indiana bubble gum reversed onto your LA Kush headband the Indiana bubble gum it's kind of a weird one in the sense that it smells strongly of bubble gum but I would say it's pretty fair to say that the taste doesn't translate yeah and the hybrids tend to not be as pink bubble gum depending on what you cross it to no but the main thing about the bubble gum that's really nice is it seems to be it's a really good indoor and outdoor plant it's extremely resistant to mold yeah and just the way that it stacks nugs on itself and the way that it's structure it's you know both in branching and buds as far as a production plant goes it's a big winner it's a killer production plant and so hopefully what it would do is it would make the LA a little bit more into a production plant but you would get some of those turps and some of that weird zippy high that comes along with the LA so then we get into let's just put these all in one kind of category even though it's three different cuts that may not even be sisters chem D, chem number one and the dog chem 91 well I'll start with the D because it's been growing out a lot it was so nice I loved it and it makes me happy that a lot of people have tagged me and stuff or sent me or sent me tales or pictures of their experiences with it there are two of my favorite cuts and it seems like it produces a whole bunch of gassy highly potent plants that have a decent amount of variety within them I would say I would say turps gassy type somewhat a little bit skunky turps tend to come out quite a bit and potency seems to be very common to find which isn't surprising because they're two of my favorite smokes and so that one we've seen actually quite a bit of and I'm pretty stoked on it how about the chem one the chem one I'm curious about that I think people would find interesting because it's by far the least circulated surviving chem it never went very far it is a 12 to 13 week very sativa looking you know very sativa looking long spears big spears chunky takes a long time 12-13 weeks that type of thing and so by crossing it to the LA anywhere from 10 to 11 weeks easily you're probably going to get a big stretchy long flowering plant with a good amount of potency and it's most people don't get to try the chem one very much so it's kind of uncirculated to a large degree so that's kind of that one I think and the dog 91 chem you know the dog is pretty famous for making things look like itself mm-hmm very true reading I would expect some phenos that look dog-like to some degree but it also is one of the most consistent things that passes potency and the LA is probably in my top five as far as potent effects this one I can't easily imagine this one but they have very different potent effects LA kind of has like this zippy somewhat uncomfortable like sometimes confusing or slightly nervous buzz where the 91 has like a very warm relaxing energetic buzz so we'll see how that one combines Mendo perps cross to your headband now this is a very not so I mean both of those things I've had for a couple of decades so they're crosses of two of my oldest longest held things I would expect that one would be extremely variable yeah the Mendo perps itself has a very wide variation even within the S1s yeah so I would expect a wide variety of colors what Mendo perps has in spades is terpenes of a wide variety of types and a wide variety of different colors and the LA has potency and is very diesel like so I would also add that there's a good chance if you grow out enough of these seeds that you can find what people would classify as skunk skunk perps S1s at about a 10% range that expression is in there there's skunk at about a 10% range there's skunk and cushiness in Mendo P out of anything we've mentioned so far I think that one might have the widest range of phenotypes but within it you could probably find some real gems Obama Kush a famous cut up in Oregon and Humboldt area Obama Kush is Bubba Kush by Mendo P so it probably won't be as crazy wide as the thing we just talked about but it'll probably do you could probably take my comments about LA by Bubba and LA by purple and sort of combine them and itself is a hybrid I would expect the Bubba kind of breeds like Bubba you know but a lot of purple Bubba diesel yeah purple Bubba diesel would be a good way to look at and the crazy thing about Mendo perps I will say is that it's not just perps when you grow up to S1s you see everything from black to purple to lavender to burgundy to green it has a lot of different you know like when I say burgundy ones that are straight red like very red so who knows what kind of looks could get mixed into there and the last but not least certainly not least is the headband triangle which has also been growing out of time and I smoke a lot of yeah that one people have sent me stuff of that you know not like I don't think I've gotten any actual samples but pictures and various things you know that's basically going to be a sour kush you know but it's probably a sour kush that's made out of the triangle has kind of a wider genetic base than a lot of kushes do and the LA is probably a different sour than most people are used to smoking so it's probably a different take on those flavors yeah and I will I put those up there with blueberry is probably my top favorite smokes if I can smoke all the time granted sour and OG combine in many different ways but I tend to like most sour OGs that I've come across as far as the high yeah I mean it's two of the it's the two lines that were the most famous in terms of like fads prior to cookie probably the sour and the sour sort of overlapped if you were you know who knows how many different hybrids we would have gotten of all that stuff if it would have been during the prime of the reversal era yeah for sure you know because it's prime was a little bit before that didn't mean it still didn't happen on occasion yeah you know but but you know huh on this note I was curious you know y'all talked about the 56 day is that one hard to reverse and would it be interesting to see the LA and the 56 all OGs are hard to reverse and all diesels are hard to reverse pure OG types that are very lanky I mean that's why thousandfold you don't see on the market a bunch of diesel type as once because often it fails or people don't get what they consider to be a sellable amount of seed commercially viable yeah like they're like oh I went through this whole effort to do it and I got 200 seeds and I actually don't want to sell any of them because I just went through all that effort and I want to see what's in them or if you wanted to sell them to make your money back you'd have to sell them at 500 a pack and people just slip when you do that like it's yeah you know a lot of times I'll interject this too what also drove a lot of the early reversal seed sales when the thing boomed like I was talking about maybe an hour ago on the show is people couldn't get a hold of certain cookie cuts or the skittles cuts or this cut or that cut you know so people were able to reverse them and sell s ones and sell hybrids and sell them for a lot per pack because it was the only way you could get access to the genetics yeah I mean think about like when think about Matt when dying breed first was selling at EC and nobody could get a hold of skittles right they were selling literally everything that they could cross the skittles for 300 to 500 300 to 600 a pack but they wouldn't have been able to do that if people would have been able to get the cut exactly you know so it's like he talked enough I was just going to say I only brought it up because I think you were in the chat yesterday as well not so when someone was like oh why isn't there like an LA sour I'm like think historically those two have not been able to be reversed for like very easy I mean even like take CSI all the seeds of TK that he sold were his third try yeah he completely failed the first two times and even the third try was a failure by his standards he got about 10 percent maybe 15 percent of the amount of seeds that he would normally want to get from a project like that and now one thing I keep pointing out and I want to want to stress on this was that these projects that you guys worked on they weren't they weren't done all at once each of those reversals was done individually a different spot so this is a project done over years and lots of space and lots of time it's not just like I hit him one and done project it's there's a lot of time and energy put into this stuff so mad props on that I'm stoked for finally available able to make it available and we're going to start the drop on Friday at 4pm for Patreon Pacific on June 23rd and for everyone else 8pm if there's anything left because they are I'll say one more thing too is when it comes to breeding projects that I'm involved in I I would say that I lean much more towards things that interest me or things that I think people might be able to take into an interesting direction rather than like what's very popular in the moment and I think might just sell out really fast you know and so as a result of that you know like I'm always looking for stuff that people could take in a new and different direction and especially mostly the primary thing is like hopefully stuff that people will like the smoke yeah effect the effect very much so I don't think you have any problems with this drop with that no definitely not is there anything else we wanted to get in that we had written down thousand or is this a wrap no I think we're more or less there all right is there anything else you wanted to get in not so it's been a few weeks since we've had you glad to see you again I'm back second but we're going to put him back in until we reach 10k so if you want to see him and keep seeing him subscribe I'll be back I mean it is I will say that you know it is one of the things about doing content that Matt and I have learned is that when you start doing weekly content like anything else it's a grind always and you're trying you know after you know it's like you've got X amount of subjects you find interesting and then you get into this mode of like well what do people want to talk about what do people want to hear about what's new right and you know talking how we talk about canna history and trying to bring out truth sometimes it causes ripples in the force absolutely and Matt has you know I generally speaking avoid most of the ripples Matt is the one that gets crashed by the waves so to speak but we did some stuff recently where I bore the full brunt of said ripples and you know it's not as easy or painless to talk about all these different subjects there's a wider amount of people out there who just want to hear truth you know or they want to hear versions of stories or this or that or whatever else and I think we do Matt and I think it's really important to get that kind of stuff out there but you're always dancing this line about like you know what's public what's private what's you know what's what's appropriate to be said you know you know what history is pertinent what's more salacious you know and then you get people that want to just drive the narrative in a way that is what we consider to be inaccurate but benefits them and so we fight against pushback well we both you know we appreciate you both very much and I think over time it becomes more and more obvious to people just how complex and scary some of these politics can get what I will say in addition to that is that for all the bull it does make me think that some of what we say matters and that we are having an impact on people and that people are nervous about our impact you know because if it was if we were totally irrelevant it wouldn't matter it would be words in the wind no and we're growing and growing big time well I mean it's just you know it's a lot of like what's funny about it is that I'm a naturally diplomatic person and so it's like people get mad sometimes people get real mad at me about certain things and I'm like man what if I just would have just vented it all out you know I learned a long time ago a lot of people think I'm just completely sort of just say everything we discuss like is this pertinent to the story is it fair is it okay to let that out you know like is this person deserved to be air-holed even though they're probably good people and maybe lied about a few things like all these things go into account and we don't just air-hole everyone it's not how it works no and so it's like really you know and it also is it's also a difficult time in weed and for people like Matt and myself who have dedicated basically their entire adult life to this subculture there's been a lot of rapid changes happening and there's a lot of good people in canna right now who are looking around trying to figure out how do I fit where do I fit how do I navigate this weird new place yeah and I think you guys are holding up you know a beacon and it's it helps all right I think this is a wrap I mean not so thank you for coming and joining us on quick notice and with that I just have one quote from cookie fam that I think and with that it's a wrap thank you everyone for joining us be sure to check out the drop visit our patreon discord if you want to get in early on the drop because there might not be nothing left after that and that was double negatives but I mean it and thank you thousand for helping us keep this along and keep it on track because we are so ADHD tangent prone and this has a ton of help you're very welcome it's an honor thank you everyone and Matt treated me with kid gloves today because he didn't mention any weird truck stop humor anything like that oh my god he didn't I'm gonna you know he's like not so he's been gone for a few weeks I'm gonna be kind I'm sure they've been building up inside of him and he probably had to bite his tongue multiple times during the I'm just letting you feel safe bro I'm letting you feel safe before the trap snaps so I appreciate that all right very happy to have you guys thank you guys peace want to sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link tree or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast and most importantly the quality is top notch I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicategear.com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our union of breeders and growers come check it out