 Welcome once again to the breakfast on Plos TV Africa. The questions and conversations concerning what happened in Iqoyi in Lagos on Monday, you know, continue of course to come left and right. The questions never end in basically. The Lagos State Governor yesterday of course made mention that there's a committee that has been set up, of course named certain members of the committee that would look into the incident and try to figure out exactly who should be held responsible and what exactly happened to prevent a you know another occurrence of such a very very terrible incident. We're speaking this morning with a concrete technologist. His name is Mr. Collins Balogun who has a lot of experience with regards architecture and building. Good morning Mr. Balogun. Thank you very much for joining us. Good morning guys. How are you guys doing today? Very well thank you. Yes we are. Alright so of course you know like I've said there's so many questions that you know need to be asked you know right from what may have led to this disaster of course there's going to be questions concerning you know is a 15 story building or it was meant to be a 15 story building and then eventually was pushed to 20 or 21. Everyone is you know asking these questions but I want you to speak with regards what you think could have led to the collapse of this building. Is it a failure of the structure? Is it a failure of the foundation? Failure of the type of materials that were used? Is it too much pressure that was placed? I really have no idea but let's have your views on what are the possible the possibilities you know that could have played out here. Okay good morning once again. I think it could be you know all those reasons stated and much more other reasons as a matter of fact there are a thousand and one reasons why a building you know can collapse but I will bring all the reasons you know and put it under just two reasons. The first one is ignorance the second one is greed. Ignorance and greed. Those are the two major reasons why you have building collapse. I mean you can now break all those down to you know so many technical, topographical and and approver reasons but the reasons you know for any building collapse can be summarized into two and they can be either greed or ignorant. Okay if we are talking about greed what could happen if that it simply means that okay the developer knows what to do but as a result of a managing cost or cost choose not to do it you know when we are talking of greed you know you know the approver processes you know you're supposed to get and you choose to you know have your way around it because you want to maximize profits or you want to you you want to cut corners and the other one which you call ignorant see building public building for especially a high-rise building requires a lot a whole lot of technical competence you bring in you know professionals when it is high rise when when your project is is a high rise maybe starting from even from third floors professionals has to be the one doing their job but unfortunately what do we have you know we have people who who realize so much on their level of experience been in this industry for 32 years then and I asked them have you ever seen an auxiliary nurse okay conducting surgery absolutely not have you have you ever seen a log farm clerk going to cut to cuts to defense and accuse it doesn't work you have to let professionals do their job from you know starting from the soy tests you know some of the things where the public do not know a building can collapse as a result of a poor or compromised soy tests I have seen it before because before you you put your building on the edge the techniques are consultant have to come and conduct what we call soy tests if they are conducting the choice soy test and the soy samples are not picked at random it could cause a problem and some of this company you know it sends you know an IT staff or NYC guys who doesn't have an experience to go and pick sample from the sides you know I've seen it happen before and because of these I always advise people that we consult for that always use two companies for your soy test one we do the primary soy test why the other cross-reference whatever the first one the okay because you know first charter can be different you may have maybe a plot of say 1000 square meters now and the soy strata of the soy structure it will have about five seven ten different soy structures and you want to do a uniform powers or different powers you know based on the soy test results all right so the soy test is number one it has to be comprehensively and for us it only done so if the first company you know conducted the conduct of the soy test you should I mean a hundred or 200,000 will not kill you for another soil test consultant so cross-reference whatever the person has done remember this is million dollars project yeah so you spending that amount of money will not be too much because failure or poor interpretation of soy structure you know can can can can lead to this okay well well so that's on you know on the soil level like because I'm completely ignorant with regards architectural and building terms but that's on the soil level as we go higher in this building what are the things that you know could also be be challenges you know I've seen that you know people also talk about you know the whether they use in metal metal poles or or they isn't bamboo you know to set up the the structure all the way up how important are these factors here and there right the next most important thing is the type of foundation the soy test with the timing the type of foundation you do meanwhile it is generally you know assumed that the higher your structure the deeper the foundation should be there are two types of foundation basically you know there are there is what we call a shallow foundation and there are deep foundation okay if you are going on high rise and you have a good soy structure or a good soil you can go on a shallow foundation but you're going to increase number of pounds I mean these are all the work of structural engineers yeah even though I made concrete technologies I do not have the competence the competency I mean there are core professionals just as we have a medical world you have general practice doctor you have surgeon you have you know all sorts so a general practice surgeon I mean a general practice doctor it's not it's not it's not it's not requested or it's not required to do it is surgery you have a surgeon okay so and that's how it is and when you come to what people see as building that is what what you see from the first floor the second floor you know the the specialist also they are the one that's going to design the building meanwhile after you install it or pile you are going to do something what we call load tests on your pile okay it's just like you going to doctor now or I want to give you I want to give you a load to carry you know and I do a BMI test for you body mass in this tests that okay I want to see your height I want to see your phone framework and at the end of the day I will look at you okay you can only carry 2 kg load yes see everything you see above the soil we call it dead loads okay we call it dead loads so you have to do pressure you have to press your test your piles and see that it can actually carry the load you want to put on it now when you get to the surface these are all these are all the work of structural consultants and the law require that all those processes are documented see they are documented and cross-reference okay now when you now get to the first floor the second floor there are so many determinants but chief among getting number one the type of reinforcement you use is all it is also going to be specified by your structural consultants if they tell you use 22 you know 22 mm reinforcement bar a tonne can cost you like you know for purpose of a they can cost you 1200 but 15 mm bar will call you will cost you 650 11 mm bar can cost you 350 this is I mean those are the places that developers or people control yeah a cutting cost so if it's on the specification that use 15 mm you know reinforcement bar don't use 11 mm it has implication because they are the one that has done all the load calculation yeah but I'm sure that you know while they are investigating this you know they will be able to figure out the millimeter you know the bars you know that were used for this particular project and you definitely all of all of that is going to all of that is going to be done okay so let's look at another fact talking just as you have mentioned because we're just also trying to dig deep and understand what could be responsible for the collapse of that you know structure and building now on the other hand you have some quotas saying that there's always you know some compromise on the side of on the side of you know government official who should be you know who should give the approval who should give the go-ahead for these structures to be erected so what are your thoughts right now you have words on the street saying yes it's possible that maybe those agencies that are created by government to give you know the building permits the town planning and whatever you probably would have compromised and we would not be here I'd like to share your thoughts on that it writes for me personally I'll tell you these intention matters okay no matter how much of control you put in place if the party involved does not have good intention is very difficult you know for any government or anybody to do anything I mean you have a husband and wife at home and the husband seek go out to cheat or the wife seek well and the whole any of the even the spark we don't know why because intention okay what is most important is that the developer whosoever that is in charge of the project has a right intention I made mention of this right intention is the most paramount now on the you know on the side of the government I will say you know legal state government they have the the best or the most potent building control a paracetam in the whole of Nigeria they are doing a whole lot however you know just like when we watch what do you call it a plane has an accident they will investigate and learn from it and integrate lesson learned into the processes the government have to look at the whole process you know of a building approver end to end you know and they have to look at the processes again from my own experience and understanding if you want to build the high-rise building you have to invite the legal state and building collapse you know they will come and take your cube tests you know the structural engineer we have to submit reinforcement that is the tensile straight report for the reinforcement all of this has to be documented submitted to the government now the next question is at this thing really done that's number one number two are they you know are they are they are they are they done on site what I'm trying to say is that you know even when legal state building collapse about come to your site to pick sample to pick your concrete sample for instance they can make that batch to meet requirements okay and the subsequent one when these guys are left you know can be compromised and as I say intention matters okay but at the same time I think the government has to put in in put in place most stringent measure okay what I call checklist right for every from every step on the way you know they have to you know they have to be checking the building when they get to the second floor to tell them to stop and do an integrity test you know before they move on this is very important of course this the go ahead go ahead yes of course these are the primary responsibilities of our structural consultants and architect on the project when you design a building for instance as a consultant you take all these are all all these tests you know you and you file them and submit them to to the government but in a situation where the recommendation as specifications of structural consultants are not being adhered to okay in such situation there's nothing they can do they can do or I mean the last the last thing they can do is to write okay the right that okay you did not add her or the sample we pick on these are at this particular floor does not some does not fall into our specification or the tensile strength or this the tensile strength of reinforcement you are using at this particular point in time falls short fall below therefore we cannot guarantee as add when they do that they absorb of any fault because actually the the responsibility is on the structural engineer what are these juncture let me say it's not just the structural engineer you know the admonitions of professionals for instance the cost estimators the architects and of course the concrete technologies okay we analyze concrete and tell and tell you okay at this particular point in time this are the type of concrete you'll be using okay self-tax and the next is concrete is a high-performance concrete you know and all of that but when all these are thrown away is it not come off it I've been doing this in 32 years before you were born but you know I've been doing this then things like this are in a vegetable all right mr. Balogu I also want you to tell us you know from your experience what you can tell from the way that this particular building collapsed I've also I've seen I think when I was watching the 9 11 investigation the analysis then you know we're speaking about you know if you're building collapses all the way down or crumbles on its on its own you know then there's certain ways or you know there's things that you can tell from that if it falls sideways there's also things that you can tell from that and maybe if it you know only collapses halfway I really have no idea but what can you tell from this particular one you know that could be the likely cause of the of the collapse because it seems to just have fallen all the way down on its on itself what can you tell would it be different or would be your analysis be different if the building had fallen sideways or anything okay I have not I've not done a deep operasica you know analysis of the video but what I can tell you is that building budget just wake up one morning and collapse okay except if it is bombed yes okay before a building collapsed you will have seen the sign right you'll have seen the sign you know you just like before you think you before you think you like you'll be palpitating you'll be sweating and one of the sign you see are structural cracks playing out in the building right because there are so many types of cracks that we have one we'll call a shrinkage cracks shrinkage cracks is a result of cracks that occur as a result of curing of your concrete or screeds or cementitious element that's shrinkage cracks we have airline cracks then we now have structural cracks structural cracks are those cracks that are both 5mm so the moment you are seeing cracks that are both in them on your concrete now not on the motor script this time around on your concrete you need to bring in professionals to investigate okay you need to bring in professionals to investigate but in so many cases what do you see when there are structural cracks you see people the patch it up right the patch it up some years ago someone called me you know about someone calls us regarding this and we just did a simple test and told him that is better you bring this building down this building is seeking and thank God the man is is is is a man who has good intention he brought down the building I mean the building is just on third floor what would we do when we go to that place we just does a broom of that there are scientific say you can you can use so to analyze if your structure is failing you know or not but we insert we inserted a broom and folded paper into those into those are cracks until this you know we forcefully inserted that three days we came back and checked low and behold the folded brooms of paper you know are loose in other world sentiment is still taking place yeah sentiment is taking place I mean this is I mean this is a street this is we pick this from streets or by experience so so this one from what you are saying you can necessarily tell what may have led to this one or these particular collapse if it is a bad structure about bad foundation poor building materials you know improper use of you know the the polls that you mentioned earlier it can be you can tell you know just by looking at the way that this one crashed or collapsed yeah I don't think there is anybody that can do that they have to do thorough investigation I mean and it is too early to just say okay it's as a result of our bad you know poor workmanship not adhering to specification or and all of that but based on what you have on you know informations you pick on the streets is possibly as a result of our assess loads I mean when a building is designed whosoever design a building you know have it have a reason or have something the might designing the building for instance I can design a building and say I want this building to last for 100 years I want this building to last for 300 years that will determine you know the type of parameters or the type of things I'm going to specify on such building but if a structural consultant design a building I say this building is going to be 15th floor or 14th floor and I design it to last for 200 years so and if it is taken to 21th floor it just like okay after I check your BMI I say you are going to carry 5 kg load and put 20 kg load on you I would I don't expect that if I said you are you are carrying 5 kg load and you are going to walk six kilometer if you carry 20 kg load you are going to walk walk less than two kilometer that's what I mean first just to analyze I want to believe that could have been what happened here okay so until further investigation is gone I mean nobody professional cannot just lay hands on that said okay this is what caused you know this is what made the building to collapse all right so let's now talk about what is required I mean for instance I'm sure that a lot of persons would you know in the nearest future want to have you know such structures as an expert and a professional what procedures should be observed to erect such a structure okay thank you very much I'm the procedure is very simple use the professionals make I mean make yourself available of latest information out there for instance ensure that your building are what height okay ensure that your buildings are watertight ensure that would there are no water seepages so you have to use water proven additive ensure that you use concrete additive to increase the strength of your concrete is going to save your cost ensure that structural engineer or structural consultant is the one that view I mean is the one that design your building adhere to specification when you are there to specification and make use of structural consultant you have transferred the reason to them okay because this is not this is not this is not your your profession they are the one that are professional and when they advise you when you when you follow the advice if anything happened to the building you have transferred the list to prevent you know on the on this case now for if the structural consultant specification is adhered to then is the structural consultant that would be you have liable above all you have to be proactive think ahead okay what could have been because one of the thing I wanted to I wanted to see here now it also is that see when you bring in maybe a structure consult from it and it was a structural consultant from United States of course there are sound of both their international of course they are good but how about on standing the topography of Nigeria there are some things that are very particular to our own climate here which they may not understand which people who hear but they are over the years of practice you know they take in therefore therefore they can guide you through it so for whosoever that want to do the high rise you know we advise that they make use of professionals as for you know advice let professionals take the risk of it is as simple as that there's some people say always is very expensive and all of that if you need a professional you know a professional service then you expect that at least you are going to pay a little more you know if with buildings or concrete just as we used to say back in school concrete half life building half life building are just like human being okay you need to check them test them you know you know from time to time so if you want to build or your developer of our friends in the industry a lot of developers that are doing fantastic things and you know they come they go to professionals they ask for advice as a matter of fact some we put two three professionals you know on their on their side so that to avoid you know things like this because the truth is that what you are going to pay professional is very very minor compared to you know mopping the type of mess that has happened now yeah should we be not simply should there be concerns with regards the buildings next to the one that collapsed should those ones now also be looking or be watched very very closely you know because of what has happened of course I mean that is a truth I mean that the site is going to the government is going to seal up the site now it's not just the immediate building all the buildings around because I'm one of the one of the biggest enemy of any high-rise structure is vibration a level of vibration that the building collapse has cost now and adversely affect those around so and I'm very sure the government are going to do integrity tests on all the building and high-rise around I mean that is no brainer is going to be done and and and these aren't things that should be compromised or should be you know overlooked they are they are extremely important so valuable definitely now when you have vibrations that there is high tendency are going to have major cracks playing out okay so I mean there are a lot of parameters that government is going to the investigators the committee set up I went to they are going to check okay if you now have major cracks maybe the foundation of such building has been compromised as a result of the vibration or the impact or the fall of the the high-rise I mean the one that has happened yes there is no I mean there won't be any other option than to bring those buildings out all right so that there's something you know like you've rightly mentioned you're saying that Torah investigation is to be carried out you know to a certain what the cost what actually led to the collapse of that building and we're hoping that you know the government and you know those concern would you know walk up to that or would leave up to expectation right but let's also look at something that the state government has actually done in a bit to limit the frequency of collapse building or collapse incident in Lagos the government has decided to launch or rebrands I mean launch a rebranded certificate of completion and fitness that's to safeguard the lives of the people do you think that that's effective enough do you think that that particular action or this would actually help in solving the problems of collapse building and structures in the nearest future well I want to believe it but the truth of the matter you know just as I reiterate earlier on is the intention we are Nigerians and we know what is happening you know people can always have their way when the intention is not right I mean I landed this but this particular building was you know was closed or sealed off for some months what happened why was it reopened you know I mean you can say okay the integrity test is conducted are you sure it's not paper integrity tests right so like I said in this part of the world intention is number one thing when your intention is right if government put a stringent processes in place you ready to go through it even above and beyond what government put in place so number one is intention okay when Lagos government is saying they want to you know reevaluate and overhaul you know I think that that's necessary you know because there are there are still some some things that has to be integrated for instance in Istanbul in Germany say you don't you don't for in Waterlog area you you use waterproof concrete not just mass concrete and the level of waterproofing has you know there's a code that takes care of that yeah in this part of the world we do not have that yet but what we have if people have right intention of using it we are never going to have I mean we are never going to see the stack of a thing so let's assume the intention let's assume that the intention is going to be right do you think it will work do you think that that's you know we're curtailing collapsed building yes it will if the intention is right definitely it's going to work it will work I am I'm very certain of that look what I what I was telling some of my friends yesterday I said I'm leave us the government they need to do more you know when it comes to revenue generation you have no way of escape leave us state you cannot escape it but when it comes to preservation of life and property why are people escaping right so the government needs to do more yes they are doing a whole lot to let nobody deceive you the government of legal state they are doing a whole lot but they need to do more so they need to rejigo the processes put more control measures and if we don't have total elimination at least we better have reduced building collapse in Nigeria all right now let's look at what's currently is going on at the site I've been questioning you know the rescue efforts that are currently going on over there I'm sure you've also seen videos you've seen those clips and pictures do you think that it is done is being done the right way you know from what you're aware of do you think that there's more that they probably should be be doing in order to you know have a chance of saving lives well that's that's that's question is neither here nor there and expected and the reality we make use of what we have oh maybe in another climb that we have you know what you call it all sorts of paramedics in place you know you have you know helicopter sniffing dogs you know and all of such but what do we have you know yes it could be better you know I mean we can have all these things in place but we don't have them now and with the best they are doing we have to encourage them you know to do more I mean criticizing I said no no no this is rubbish this is the best you know based on the equipments and what is available you know and emergency rescue in Lagos has the phenomenon compare with other states okay so we have to give it up to we have to give it up to Lagos they are trying but can they do more the answer is yes right when you when you score three out of ten you know it's still a mark is better than those that don't that they didn't come to school at all so we need to encourage the government to do more can there be a better rescue procedure procedure the answer and particularly is yes the answer is yes but we need to encourage the government to do more absolutely you know and I'm really just hoping that we hear some good news because every single day that passes in every minute counts for those who are still buried under that rubble and fighting for a chance to stay alive every single minute that passes is very very important so I'm hoping that yes you know would encourage the government to continue to do what it should do but you know that there is some miracle and more people are brought out of that rubble alive the questions will continue you know and I know that we'll eventually also get to the question with regards Lagos state itself and the way that the the the these areas are set up with regards rescue and emergencies for for example when this happened on Monday I was in traffic in Iqoi when it happened and I know that it took an hour maybe up to two hours before proper rescue equipment eventually got there and and that's not encouraging in any way so a lot of these questions will continue to be asked you know somehow some way is there a little bit more that you can share with us concerning the quality of building materials that are found in Nigeria is this something that also is a problem that is not spoken about enough yeah the quality of building material of course is is one of the of the reason but I'm just like I tell people that ask me you know just like if you go to the market you can buy some clothes a yard with you 600 and there are clothes a yard will be 7,500 okay so I mean you can buy a car for half a million or a million buy a car for 20 25 million so but if you are the one that's going to you know choose specify that okay this is the quality of what I want when it comes to high-rise building government you know have a measure and expectation which is carried out by structural consultants for instance the reinforcement you know which is responsible for the tensile strength of the building before procurement or purchase of reinforcement that the structural consultants will insist that they pick sample of that reinforcement and one tests the strength and the lab okay and if it falls below the expected strength they are not going to use it okay so building material the quality of building material out there yes I mean niads that are poor there are good ones and there are premium okay there are people and that's how it is all over the world you know that's how it is but it the whosoever that is developing must now choose but at the same time you know there are modern technologies you know like concrete additives like waterproofing additives you know like injections silane silane silane injections into concrete and building that is good that can help all right there are quality building material in the market and there are fake the choice is on everyone that want to build either you go for fake or for quality of course I know that government have a role to play by regulating ensuring that the quality of building material brought to the market you know meet a particular level of you know the level of quality but at the same time the choice is on everyone that want to build to act much as possible to you know to go for the quality one and how do you go for the quality one before you buy ask for the for certificates you know the certificate of quality ISO or SO or SON also picks yeah and also pick sample go to lab or go to lab and have them tested okay for us now for every cement we bought we have to pick sample we go and do lab analysis before the string jets are quality control in our facility before we bring them in because I mean fun enough the quality of the quality varies right the quality varies so once is one of thing weekly thing monthly thing no every batch thing every batch we subject them to quality test if it passes we take that mean it does not pass we get them to also ever the supply even to the sand the silica sand we get we get them to string that quality you know measurement and this is what you are going to recommend for everyone of us I mean you have to do this this is the only way you can get in you can get here you can get quality material into your into your project okay so like I'm just to you know both your point again I know that you have mentioned that yes government has a role of regulating and then you also have it on those who are building developers and all of that to ensure that they get the right material but at whose end do we control at whose end should we stop it at whose end should we ensure that we don't get to this point so should it be on the part of government or on the people who should we you know at whose end should all of this stop at okay I mean there are there are sequence to be oversight function primary functions okay the government is a regulatory the big the big boss the regulatory body but the consultant is there to ensure that government regulatory expectations are carried out right they are carried out for instance now with great concrete by mega mega pasca MPs okay when they say if you're if it is designed that okay your concrete for the mother's lab the grand slab it has to be 30 MP the consultant will give you for you to achieve 30 MP this is a cement requirement this is the sand this is granite requirement if you follow that requirement you are going to meet it and the specification still say that when you follow those requirements take your cube test and go to the lab okay go to the lab and ensure that that particular requirement is met so where did it stop is end to end primary primary oversight secondary oversight but they are all expectations and specifications so right from the government to the consultant to the everybody have road to play okay all right but with the time that we have left I would like that you share with us the questions that the lego state government should be asking to get to the bottom of this who should be you know questioned what questions should be asked and what you know are the things that should be looked into with regards this incident yes I mean the government have taken the right step but uh bringing uh bringing in bringing in bringing in uh community okay bringing in community you know and it's going to be consistent of professionals okay structural uh structural consultants people that have experience in the industry so that's what that's like what is most uh what is most important okay because everybody have their own area of expertise for instance the jewel please guy they're going to take samples of the soil and and actually go and re-evaluate then from that they will know oh okay this um what do you call it these are these piles are not deep enough okay the piles are not deep enough based on this soil test are they lose soils are they lose me soil what is the CBR ratio of the soil you know is the foundation right so all of this I mean is very very deep is very very deep so all of these are going to be put um they're going to be put into concentration in the course of our you know in the course of their investigation so it's not what we can just say okay it's just going to be one person it's going to be the committee I want to believe we involve concrete technologies structural engineers you know architects um geotechnics um you know that is the soil engineers and all of that so everybody will face their area of co-competence and they are going to agglomerate these reports and come out with the total um the final findings okay well we would of course continue to follow this story um as it develops and of course um we're looking forward to bringing you back when more questions emerge that need to be to be answered uh Collins Balogu a concrete technologist thank you very much for spending your time with us just uh Thursday morning and of course I'm sure that you also wish that uh there's more people found you know in that rubble alive um and of course we end this somehow somewhere on a on a good note thank you very much once again we are hopeful thank you very much absolutely and this is where we will be uh wrapping up the conversation this morning it's a really really sad event here in Lagos and we will continue to follow up and of course give you updates as often as they emerge uh right there from eco e if you missed out on any of the discussions we had this morning remember where to catch up it's simply a plus to the africa on facebook and instagram same with our youtube channel at plus to the africa and the plus to the africa lifestyle i am osaogi og mong and i am messia buppo to have a great first thing