 when you look at the challenges that we've got coming forward, when you're looking at, you know, increasing drought, floods, conflict and things, the very kind of fabric of life, things like food systems and food availability, they're going to start to become really scarce. And as beings, sentient beings, we have a choice either to kind of go down the route of like individualists and like, you know, hoarding and, and, you know, not sharing and hatred and division or we can be compassionate and, and come together and support one another through these challenges ahead. Sarah Greenfield Clark is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Sarah is a passionate change maker and advocate for people, power and radical collaboration. With Liam, she co-founded Climate 25 as an evolutionary not-for-profit focused on agility, pace and systems change. She is committed to lifelong learning and finding new ways to platform the voiceless amidst the climate change, ecological and humanitarian crisis. Prior to Climate 25, Sarah helped birth Extinction Rebellion with strategy, partnership and leading fundraising efforts. Sarah completed a distance learning MSC sustainability achieving a first in 2018. She has written for Huffington Post and helped coordinate and create green initiatives in her city of Chelmsford. Is that how you said? Chelmsford, yeah. Chelmsford. Sarah has two kids and in what little spare time she, she has, she's making an eco-energy efficient home with her husband using as many secondhand materials she can find and source. The way we know each other is a couple different ways. We have a mutual good friend, Laura Stein, a former of TEDx, creator and Boma Global and also Sarah received the 2018, I believe it was, Climate Reality Leader Training in Berlin from Al Gore's Climate Reality Project, of which many of my listeners know it was the Germany and Austria country manager from Al Gore and one of the first 50 people trained by Al Gore as a climate speaker in his ranch in Carthage, Tennessee. So I really appreciate you guys being here and Sarah welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. It's so good for you to be here and to take the time to speak with us today. So we came to know each other kind of in a roundabout way but you've been doing this for, for a while, not only through Al Gore's Climate Reality Training but also getting into the movement and, and raising awareness. What sparked you to, to make that leap or to, to make that jump into the activism and, and what you do? Yeah, it actually feels like it's not been very long since I've been involved in this. I was quite late to the party, I guess, in understanding how severe the crisis were and it wasn't until, I think, 2015 that my husband and I watched a documentary, a National Geographic one called Before the Flood by Fisher Stevens and the imagery and story just captivated us firstly and then, then just broke me solidly for about a week. I think I was grieving very, very deeply after watching that. We have two kids, as you mentioned in the intro there and so I have this kind of biological link to the future through them and I just couldn't, couldn't turn my back on this information. So the thing that I tend to do is explore and understand an issue like as much as I can and then figure out how best I can apply myself to the solution. So as you mentioned, I went back and did a post-grad in sustainability which was really broad, covered so much from, you know, basic climate science to the human aspect of this political, cultural system thinking, like what we eat, what we, how we live, how we, you know, how we get from A to B, absolutely everything and that, so that, that did that distance learning and as that was coming to an end, I felt two things. I felt really that we have as a species, humanity, we have the solutions, we have the technology, we have the human power, we have the finance to achieve this transition but for me the missing piece was the everyday ordinary citizens, the kind of awareness of how severe and how much of an emergency this really was because I had been in that bubble and just kind of conforming and not really questioning anything and so I imagined that there were many more people like me and extinction rebellion was forming then, that was 2018. I'm trying to think when the Berlin, the Al Gore thing crossed over, I think that would have been in my, my mission to learn as much as possible about this and to figure out how best I could contribute. It was either 2018 or 2017, my, my memory is fading as well, I think it was 2018. I remember, I remember being so excited, I think that was one of my first steps of like, okay, I need to, I can be a change maker and I remember like writing in and doing the application and not having like a history of this, a background of this at all and fully expecting to be rejected, I don't know why, just because, yeah, not, not kind of really having a background in it and just being so excited when I was accepted and it was such an intense, but really eye-opening few, few days and then, yeah, as I mentioned, then extinction rebellion was kind of forming and I think I'd found that through Facebook groups and messages and things, didn't really know what that was about. So I went along to the first official kind of launch of extinction rebellion in October 2018 and just thought, okay, wow, this makes sense to me, like, just stopping people, just hitting pause and like, okay, this is a real issue, everybody needs to pay attention and be part of the, be part of the story of change, you know, it can't happen without people, if we're going to change everything, it's going to need everybody. And so, yeah, there was something there that just really aligned for me. I felt like it was a really safe space also to kind of bring in the emotional burden of knowing this, which is something that's being talked about more and more, but, you know, it's a heavy weight to kind of look into the client, the climate science and see the kind of predictions that are being laid out for us in the trajectory we're on. And so the thing for me that appealed was that regenerative culture piece of extinction rebellion, which is accepting all parts of us to come and making space for those emotions as well. I just have to say that it was the passion and the like the manpower, actually woman power as well, behind that early group of extinction rebellion curators, I guess, like curating us a new social movement was just incredible to be amongst. And I can't take credit for any of the planning from before that point, obviously, that I think it was about two years of research and things that went into the making before I joined in October. And the mentality was just like, if you see a need, roll your sleeves up, jump in and get all, you know, get involved, get organized. And so I asked, I met Gail, first of all, and asked where this is Gail Bradbrook, one of the co founders of extinction rebellion, asked her what what needed doing. And she tasked me with fundraising. And I've never, I've never been a fundraiser before, I've done like some local things for chance to try and get local initiatives, but nothing on that scale. So I, but there was a need. So, so I tried to do, I did my best there, like convened, I did that for about a year and convened a kind of team of volunteers to like figure out all of the different strategies for raising funds for a social movement, which we learned so much in that first year. And it was a really interesting time in 2018, 2019, because you had the rise of Fridays for Future as well. I actually met Greta in, on that October in, yeah, in 2018. And to see, to see all of these movements evolve and flourish. It was just magical to be a part of it really. Yeah, have you had any experience of like, have you been in like, have you been along to an action by either the climate strike? I've been, I've been along to Extinction Rebellion and to 350.org. So different movements for them. Obviously, tons of climate reality trainings, but also some action campaigns, some different marches and protests, almost all the Fridays for Future in, in Davos and in Hamburg, one in Berlin. So and a bunch of others, I've been doing this for, for quite some time. The reason I kind of asked about that intro, so as well, a little bit more about you to kind of get that out. But some of that, so not only your degree and sustainability, but also your training from Al Gore and what you've now experienced from that kind of, you kind of got into it, you know, right when it was getting hot and heavy and a lot of activism and a lot of people coming, bubbling to the surface now with this awakening, so to say, of what's going on and whether they saw a documentary, whether they read a book or heard a speech or were motivated through actions of community. Now, the last 12 months, we've experienced the pandemic that, which is all very much tied to, to climate and air quality and environment and, and we've experienced Black Lives Matters, we've experienced more things around Fridays for Future and even with Extinction Rebellion where people are like, what are we, what's going on now? What's this craziness, the inauguration in the United States and the Brexit and all the craziness in the world that's going on? Did that, any of that thing set you into a situation where you're like, oh, I want to crawl in a hole and go to sleep? Or were you prepared with any of that short experience where you said, boy, it's bubbling to the head, I have the tools, I know what to do and we're going to make it through this and we're going to come out on the other end stronger or even just keep going and we know what to do. And so basically, that question is, is how have you weathered this crazy time? For me, it's still going on. I'm in Humber, Germany and we're now in the, the next lockdown phase that probably will go, you know, mid-April or more, but the, you know, it's just, things aren't going to get back to normal. I don't want them to get back to normal, but how have you weathered it and what are your plans? What are your, what are your learnings during this period? Yeah, I think that's a really good question and I really love how you're, you're connecting all of these, what could be seen as disparate kind of issues. It, like what's going on now, it's completely interrelated, you know, when you think of ecology and how we intensively farm, you know, animals and things, of course, pandemics have been predicted for, for a while now and the advice has been there and, and we haven't seen that change. So of course, this is the outcome. And again, with, you know, Black Lives Matter, you, you see time and time again, communities of people of black and brown origin, they are, have contributed least to the crisis and to the destructive ways of living, but they're at the front lines of those, you know, of the, the, the devastating effects of climate breakdown. So, and it's very core ecology, ecological balance is about justice and is about kind of equity, not just for humans, but for other species, plant species and animals like everything needs to change. So firstly, love that you're seeing that, that parallel. And I think in response to coping mechanisms, for me, it's about having people that you can talk to. I remember before I finish my, my Masters in Sustainability, I use the, I don't know what you call it in other countries, but there's like a chaplaincy service within the university. So if you're having, if you're struggling with your mental health, you can go and seek support. And the person that I went to, it's a really bizarre kind of backwards thing. But so the person that you go to, you're going, okay, I'm really struggling like with all of this data and the predictions and the trajectory we're on, you know, this isn't, this is very real. And this is a very real threat. And I'm concerned about my kids. And the, the professional, the counselling professional hadn't had any experience. She didn't have that context that she, she really didn't know how to best support me. She was absolutely fantastic, amazing woman and just deeply, I found value from those sessions in a different way. But what, what I decided was to try and find more people that felt like me and try and find practitioners who were working in this space who could provide the right support. So I set up a Facebook group. I think it's called Eco, Climate Grief and Eco Anxiety Hub for concerned citizens, like a ridiculous name. I didn't know what to call it. But yeah, I created this and just started to kind of see more people come forward, really battling with the sadness and the grief and the fear and, and in doing, in finding those people that you can talk with very, really authentically, you, you find like, I don't know, just find more hope and find more positivity just having had those conversations. And so the same thing can be applied really to, you know, this isolation period with COVID, it's finding ways. And that's, you know, digitally connecting through a Facebook group. And for all its sins of negativity and hate and fake news and things, there's still a place for digital community done right, in my opinion. And that's, that's what I've, that's the resource that I've leaned heavily on, I think, to weather me through the various different kind of highs and lows. Yeah, I mean, we created this climate 2025 completely remotely digitally. So this was, we're about coming up to a year now. And so it was kind of formed just before COVID really took hold, started kind of planned for this new not-for-profit back in, I think December 2019. And then kind of, so we've never, we've never had a place. So we've always, we've grown quite quickly in this first year from just the directors and now to about six or seven employees and then contract researchers and things. And so we all convene on a Zoom like this. And it's, it's quite bizarre having like such a deeply connected, authentically communicating team, but actually never having met these people in person. So yeah, I think that, you know, people that you can talk to and be real with is the way forward for me. Can you tell me how you came up with the name 2025, what the thinking is behind it, what the core function of what 2025 does, what they hope to do, think a little bit more about Yeah, I'd love to. I actually can't take credit for the, the naming of it. But for me, we've gone back and forth. For me, what it embodies is the, the kind of drawdown and the, the time scales that we're working with. So it's really easy. We've seen politicians kick these things into the long grass. And it's really easy to set targets way in the future and think that somebody else's problem. So for me, the climate 2025 means a drawdown of my resources, my energy, my focus, intensively working now here and now today, because anything that we do, the sooner we do things, the better the outcomes going to be on so many levels, like on a humanitarian level, but also financially it's going to cost more to solve these problems later down the line than it is to invest in time and resources now. So for me, yeah, that, that, that means a lot. It means that I'm, I'm committed to this intensely. Unlikely, I think in a conversation we've had before, it's really hard to shut out work. Like this is a permanent reality. And so sometimes I work, you know, six, seven days a week on this because it needs it. It needs it now. Yeah. So for me, it kind of embodies everything that we feel about this urgency and about change now and not kicking this down, down the line for somebody else to deal with. You don't see it as work. No, no, this is really odd. And, and actually to be to, I've never, ever had a kind of career that I that felt so like it, although the work and the things that we're seeing are quite terrifying, like it feels good. It's feel good work. One of the things I did in the postgrad thing, part of it was linked to the Eden project in the UK. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's like, it was absolutely gorgeous. It used to be a mine and just completely transformed into this lush, biodiverse space where people can learn about ecology. So part of my, I had residentials there, which was really, really good for kind of deep transition, personal transition. And one of the things they did there, I'm going to pronounce this wrong. I just know it as a Japanese concept called icky guy. Yeah. Yeah. And so Eden project is an ARUP big project that they did. It's one of the biggest sustainability regeneration projects taking, was it an old mine or a super site fund before? And then they totally converted us. One of the pinnacle projects in the world so far. Yeah. It's absolutely like well-bleeding. Like pioneering, if you think about it, with the kind of question about what do you do when it stops, something stops being an extractive practice in industry. And how can you keep, how can you revive that space for the community and restore the land? So it is absolutely, it was a privilege. But yeah, one of the things is about like finding your reason for being. And I seem to have found it through this. So to your question, this, this, although it's hard and it is hard and I don't know, we don't have all the answers and we don't, you know, there's difficult decisions to be made. It doesn't feel like work because it feels, it feels like a necessity and it feels like part of who I am now. Very, very different to who I was back, you know, back six, seven years ago. What do you do for organizations or people? If somebody approaches you and says, boy, we need some help, what, what do you say, we do this, but we don't do that? Or do you say, we kind of the, we do everything organization? Tell us more specifically what, maybe what you've done for Extinction Rebellion, what you've done for others, organizations you've helped and, you know, what's a simple, take us on a walkthrough of what, what that process is like. Yeah, the first thing to say is it's constantly evolving, like we're learning, we're, we're really kind of committed to cyclical learning, so what's working, what's not working, what's needed, how are we doing, you know, how are we delivering. We've landed in this really gorgeous space a year on where we, we exist to support emerging movements working for systemic change in, in amidst the climate and ecological emergency. And within that we very much consider climate justice, you know, in that conversation and in those, within those issues. And we support those movements with four services. We offer infrastructure support, so whether that's kind of small groups that need support, setting up a legal entity, excuse me, and, you know, constituting and registering themselves as an organization, or they might actually decide that's not the route for them. And they could use our fiscal hosting services that we can support them internally within climate 2025. So that's infrastructure. We offer an access to funding program. One of the things, so taking our learnings from Extinction Rebellion and seeing how, seeing the challenges of getting funding from A to B into social movements. We've kind of got that experience now and we've got some really strong relationships with philanthropists and funders who are starting, so they can see the value of social movements and they're starting to seek advice on changing their strategies on how best to fund change makers. So that's a really exciting journey. It almost feels like matchmaking between someone with the resources and someone that needs them. And also taking those, yeah, those philanthropists and foundations and things on that journey to really change the way, change the funding environment entirely. So that's really exciting. We also offer consulting services and we're finding actually more increasingly within movements, things like decision-making structures and the actual internal structure of organizations can be tricky. So that we have someone that just absolutely loves helping people figure out the best structure to get them just doing the thing that they're good at. And things like strategy theory of change, communications, launching things. So we have like a roster of consultants that basically can support movements just to free them up to do the thing that they want to do and bring in that skill set if they're missing it. And then lastly is the kind of partnerships ecosystem space, which is me. This is the bit that I love. And it's essentially, I guess, understanding what's going on in the wider ecosystem. Seeing where there's kind of points of alignment, scope for collaboration is my belief that for too long, if things are in silo and actually if you come together, you know, there's limited resources and limited time. So actually, if you can bring groups of people together on specific issues or a specific sector, you can spread the task out between you and achieve more and faster as a result of that. So that's what really excites me is finding groups and trying to support them in coming together and working together. So that's the four services. And we do that on a pay as you feel model, which is quite new and out there, I guess. So we understand that actually a lot of movements, they can be really like young at the beginning of their journey and not actually have any funding. And so we want to be able to support change makers, regardless of we don't want wealth to be a barrier. And we also work with people that do have finances to be able to contribute, I guess, to the movement, to the NGO that we're the nonprofit that we're doing. And so it feels fair that we can support anyone regardless of where they're at. And we're kind of sustained with a mixture of that pay as you feel for the clients that can can support us. And then with foundation money from foundation to keep us going. And what's really interesting is we started with a kind of ordinary or typical structure. So registered as an upper profit in the UK, a company limited by guarantee. And we're going through our own internal review to try and make something more horizontal. So like a workers cooperative, so that there's a less traditional hierarchy of directors and employees and things. Yeah, so we're in the middle of that and hope to come out of that in May with the best way forward and everyone in the teams inputting into that. I think we're just trying to be the change that we want to see in the world. We don't always get it right. And there's a lot of unknowns. We're not following a clear path. We're making our own. So we're learning from mistakes continuously. But it seems to be working. We have about 68 coming up to 70 movements that we support at the moment on our kind of on our books, one of the best words in our portfolio. And they range from just all manner of different groups and things across different sectors, different size scale, like their approach of how they're creating change. It feels it feels nice that we've tapped into something. We're kind of trusted entity that emerging movements can tap into and get the support that they need. Yeah, it's a joy. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. Thanks for kind of letting us know on all the pillars of what you do and what that process looks like. In the show notes and descriptions definitely list your website and all your your links on how people can reach out to you. There's a lot of people who either belong to a movement or want to start their own movement. There's a lot of emergence right now for indigenous movements where they're cooperating and coming together. And there's a lot of farmer movements as well right now. So there's just always a need for that support because normally as an activist or somebody who goes out as even an environmentalist or to be part of the movement or start a movement, there's not all the skills and structure of how do you make that organization work? How do you avoid discontent or fighting within the organization? How do you align the mission, the why, the purpose that you know, and obviously the funding? How do you make the whole thing work? And one thing I really liked with Extinction Rebellion that came out early on was that regenerative cultures. Well, what does that mean? How do you understand that? And our world is growing around us exponentially. So, good, bad, and ugly exponential growth and problems. How do we keep up to pace, up to speed with that? And really the key is in that evolutionary culture, that regenerative culture, the fastest way for humanity to grow and evolve is through regenerative culture. Well, culture still takes a long time to develop and evolve, but it's a lot faster than traditional evolution and traditional forms of growth and that. And that's one that uses the exponential function. It's one that uses this community culture and and something. So, I really like that Extinction Rebellion used that regenerative cultures because it's one of the ways that I always say is the quickest way humanity can kind of come together and hit a critical mass and evolve much faster than traditionally we've evolved over the years. I think in some industries and some ways we're still stuck in the dark ages, you know, with the ways we do things and interact with our planet. But the more we come together and the more we have that culture in that community as global citizens as a part of a symbiotic earth and understand systems, the more quickly we can impact our planet positively. So, I really like that. I don't know if you are involved in that at all, but I know that's kind of what I heard out of what you said, what you help organizations kind of find their purpose, but also help them with the tools that they need to get that, keep it and keep that momentum going. Yeah. So, for me, that was a really that was, I think I mentioned this earlier, that was one of the things that resonated really strongly with me. It was a new term for me, like regenerative culture. And sometimes I still think maybe it's really, it's really hard to know what it is or how to describe it. And if you haven't come across the phrase before, it can be a bit just, you know, what on earth does this mean? But for me, like when you look at the challenges that we've got coming forward, when you're looking at, you know, increasing drought, floods, conflict and things, the very kind of fabric of life, things like food systems and food availability, they're going to start to become really scarce. And as, as beings, sentient beings, we have a choice either to kind of go down the route of like individualists and like, you know, hoarding and, and, you know, not sharing and hatred and division, or we can be compassionate and, and come together and support one another through these challenges ahead. And so for me, regenerative culture is just shifting everything, every aspect of what we do to that kindness, compassionate route. And so, you know, we do it within climate 2025, trying to, even small things like regenerative scheduling of our calendars, making sure that we're not putting too much, you know, back to back meetings, which is so easy to do in, in Zoom pandemic times. And, and also it's like making sure that there's space for mental health in your working week. I don't know about you, but if I'm having a day when I'm, when I'm just not in the zone, or, you know, I feel sad about something, or like a bit of news or something has just triggered something, and my focus isn't there. It's almost, it just, it seems to me like a waste to try and, try and work through it when your mind's not in there. Whereas the, the flip side of that, I know that when I am in the zone, my goodness, I can go like 12 hours straight, my husband has to come in with, with food. So it's like, sort of sharing that across the team and knowing that people have space to be human, and, and trying to just create a working culture, I guess, that's, that's just caring and reflective of actually our individual needs. Yeah, it's, it's really special. It's a, it's a really wonderful, wonderful thing. And I think we're seeing more and more of this regenerative learning and sharing. And what's really interesting is when it starts to become a habit and you do, you kind of think about these things in every day, it kind of ekes into other areas. So like, I'd start to have kind of more authentic conversations with, with people outside my work circle, people that hadn't encountered regenerative culture. And, and it's just creates space for kind of just doing things slightly differently, asking different questions when you meet up with people. And yeah, just trying to find, trying to, trying to connect to one another that little bit better than we have been doing. So I'm going to, I'm going to call you on the carpet a little bit and put you on the spot. I, I think you'll do just fine. But basically, he, so not only from extinction, rebellion, but also from the Al Gore climate reality training you receive and also from your degree, you received some tools, specifically from Al Gore's climate reality training, you're received a little USB stick with all Al Gore's climate presentations in on, on that stick, as well as access to an online portal where the reality hub where you could go and access new updated materials, access to a network and kind of a system on the back end that was, this is kind of almost like a social network in and of itself that gives you access to the latest materials, presentations, data science, but also that network of people in different places and parts of the world or even parts of the United Kingdom that are already leaders that you guys could collaborate and work together. And the climate reality leadership, they call it acts of leadership. And so I want to ask you, one, how after your training, have you used and applied those tools? Did they make a change in your life and how, how do you depart not just those presentations, but also that wisdom and knowledge on to others? And I want to caveat it just a little bit because I always thought that it's unbelievable that Al Gore says, you know, here's my presentation, I'm going to give it to you. You can put in slides, take out slides, you can make it your own. I empower you to give this presentation. Here's the basics of it, but you don't need to word for word, give it like I do, I given it to you and I'm empowering you to make what you want out of it. And so I kind of want to get an update on how you've used those tools, how they've helped, did they help? What would you like to seem differently and give us a little more insight into that experience or that journey? I'm going to be super honest with you here. I have learned about myself that I am terrible at giving presentations. Absolutely terrible. I can speak one-on-one, which is why I'm completely content like having this conversation with you. I feel completely relaxed, you know, in my zen, but I'm put two or three or four more people that I'm speaking with and I crumble, get shaky and my voice just quivers. And I think the other thing was I was so desperate to convince people like, please look at this, this is real, you know, like that intensity, so not being good at being a natural kind of presenter and the intensity of almost demanding the people that hear this change, like they just, it just didn't work for me. I remember trying out on my family and it just causing like tension and yeah, I think I discovered very early on that my placeness wasn't giving the presentation. And almost, I guess I've almost come to sort of serve and platform the people that can do that. Like I think what's really nice to learn is that there are multiple ways of creating change and there are various different tools and things out there to fit every personality. You know, you have amazing groups who look at the climate psychology in kind of conversations and how you, how best to describe what's going on in a way that people can relate. You know, there's experts in that and I'm not an expert in that. And you have people that are really natural, you know, on a stage and things and they should be given the space to do so. But I think for me, it was quite empowering to acknowledge that that wasn't my space. And I'm continually trying to find what is my space and support those who can, you know, be the front person and who can give a presentation and change hearts and minds because that's kind of what it's about. I was, I was terrible at it, Mark. Well, I appreciate you being so honest because that's actually the right answer. So not, not everybody's a good presenter. Not everybody wants to give presentations. Honestly, probably less than 1% of people who go to a training like that actually become active and start giving presentations. But much more, a much larger percentage go back and they change their social media. They change their way they write. If they write articles, or if they publish something in the local press, or they join movements or projects that have to do with sustainability, or they even just change their own life, their own house, their own household, their own lifestyle to kind of reflect that. And then after they feel that they have a good grasp on that, and they have the tools already to kind of spread it out and support to support others. And there is it's not just all about presentations. So there's so many different aspects that that you can go directions that you can go in to actually raise the awareness to do acts of leadership that aren't necessarily presentations where you can speak to politicians, government leaders, ministers, but also where you can speak to community leaders. So yeah, church groups and activity groups and sport groups and universities on small levels or on a big levels, or you just take a supportive role. So I think that's great. And then the other aspect that they really offer as that back end kind of a network of extended family almost of tools, people you can connect with who probably are better versed or more experienced or can help and support. So it's a nice organization to already have people of the like mind willing to help that are also connected to other networks. I really like that. I think you've tapped the nail on the head there is that actually the sort of the front end the public facing piece of this is probably true of most movements is the smallest part of the iceberg. There's so much going on behind the scenes. There's so much going on a local level. There's so much kind of almost administration work going on everywhere. So the front piece is often maybe the smallest piece is very, very important. But there's so much going on behind the scenes. And I think I think within these kind of social movements and changemaking organizations, it's really, really great that people can find a piece that's right for them. You know, we see it in Friday to future, we see it in Extinction Rebellion, we see it in all of the different movements and I haven't touched on the other ones that we're involved with and supporting, but you'll have those kind of front faces who are really good at what they do. But you'll have the data analyst, you'll have the organizers and like strategists and all of that stuff is so important. And I think it's nice to give self-space and time to find what fits you. There is this rush, we're under this time pressure, but to kind of take a turn from Lara, Lara Steen, is the superpower. I've so taken the order and adopted that as my word and I'm constantly going like, what is our superpower? What's your superpower? How can we find it? How can you be the best version of you and contribute the most to this problem? So yeah, taking time and figuring out your superpower I think is really valuable. That's amazing. I'm not letting you off the hook yet because I want to go deeper even though because there's a transformation and it happens with a lot of people and I want to kind of bring that story out a little bit more because there's many people in your same situation and many people in wanting to join a movement and then there's some who are just at a much different level. They're so worried about the basic needs of life that they can't even think about the environment or ecology. They're so worried about just making ends meet or getting through the day that they don't even think on that level and that's where we need a whole nother support infrastructure of people who can kind of help move things forward and take them from that place where they're at to a different level on a different journey of empowerment and to receive the basics that they have. I know where I want to go with this is the fact that what I see or hear and what we've talked before, it's almost like there was a light that went on. Something in the tools, something that you heard, you weren't struck by a lightning, you weren't a climate refugee, but something changed in your life where you're like, oh my gosh, there's why aren't we paying attention? Kind of like Greta Thunberg says that our planet's burning, our house is on fire. Why aren't we doing something? What was that like for you and what did that look like and why can you not go back and what's kind of continuing to drive you forward every day? There's so many pieces of that and there's so many ways I could answer that. Firstly, for me, I just want to acknowledge that there is a narrative here around privilege and for me, doing what you can, if you're in a position of privilege, you're either part of the solution or continuing the status quo is part of the problem. I'm really lucky to have been able to go and do this post-grad and do the things that I'm doing. For me, it feels like an obligation, a big part of our collective human family. Then the other piece for me is I wanted to talk about mass participation of this transition and getting, you know, moving towards more democracy, not less. For me, we need all of that, all of those range of voices in coming up with the solutions. A really gorgeous project that we all start to see emerge later this year is the idea of a global citizens assembly and to try and get representatives of our global human family all receiving this knowledge in very unique situations, but then coming to a kind of just unfair transition that doesn't leave people behind, that people who, that anyone can be a part of, basically, so that feels really important to me. The bit about going back, it's so strange. For me, it was that documentary before the flood and it just hurt and landed and wouldn't go away. It's like a shadow or another limb or something. It just wouldn't go away. On my lowest days, I sometimes catch myself thinking, I wish I didn't know. I wish I didn't know this and I could just be blissfully ignorant. But that is such a moment, a thought, a moment that goes in and out so quickly because it's just not an option. For me, the magic is if we can find out what activates people in the same way that it did to me. I don't know that everyone has their own journey to this. You also might have a range of people that get it, but they just don't know what to do. There's so much conflicting information out there and then you just throw that in with the false news and the destructive misinformation putting out there by fossil fuel conglomerates and things like that. It's really confusing. I imagine there's a huge cluster of people who want to do something but just don't know what that something is. It's a really good question and I don't know what the answer is. We're working with, I don't know if you know, Frederick Leloux. He wrote a book called Reinventing Organizations. I'm actually in the book. Are you? Oh my goodness. I met Frederick, oh gosh, maybe 18 months ago through Extinction Rebellion and he's got a new project that's emerging and it's looking at that psychology piece what does it take to get somebody to receive the information, feel the information and feel like something changed within them like in your physiology so that you can't look away. I don't know how much I can share about it but it looks really great, really exciting and to create almost like a trend out of giving this your attention and out of giving this your time. This is worthy of us all to pay attention to. That's a really interesting project that he's working on and for me that's like, yeah that's how to get people to care about this. Yeah. Yeah. Frederick Leloux has been around for a while so there's some really greats that I love around the future of work, the way we look at the work and organizations and in many different structures and he's truly a thought leader in many many many respects and so but yeah I'm actually listed in his book. It's hard to see but right there, we're somewhere right there. There you go. But yeah he's a wonderful guy and so yeah there's there's so many thought leaders here in Germany we have another thought leader actually was in living in the US for a while but he's German as Tim Lieberich he started the business romantic society, wrote the books The Business Romantic and the Romantic Societies and the beautiful house of beautiful business and things like that and Frederick Leloux and you know the Teal organizations and things are such wonderful thought processes. You touched on kind of this global citizen topic and maybe want to go a little bit deeper there so I want to ask you a question. Do you believe that you're a global citizen and how would you feel about a world without borders divisions of humanity one from another so these boundaries that not just in lockdown that kind of restrict humanity one from another you know the removal of borders nations and divisions of humanity and where do you see any trends or what's your feeling about this type of a movement or thought philosophy? Yeah so I very much consider myself a global citizen and a European to that note as well. I did my very best to campaign for remain in the Brexit era for me that very concept of global citizenship is under threat at the moment we're seeing rise of kind of nationalism and borders and division and it's terrifying it's absolutely terrifying. I think part of being a global citizen is understanding the interconnectedness of us all like as a species we're actually deeply embedded in ecology you know in ecology we're not separate from it and so when you start to think actually the air that I'm breathing today could have you know could have come from the air that you're breathing over there and like it's you kind of nature hasn't got boundaries and borders it's only human social structures that have been put there and yeah and just for me that's it's just it's under threat and I think this is why it's really important and we're starting to see this like youth uprising being more engaged in politics understanding it how you know the structures that exist and and what the other alternatives are out there you know it's fascinating and terrifying in equal doses that anything that can move us to shared a shared existence is positive in my opinion yeah what about you? Yeah you said that so nicely it's it's absolutely true we're all breathing the same air we're all drinking the same water we're all I mean how quickly the pandemic spread it's a it's a microscopic bacteria virus that spread throughout our whole planet that's affected the whole world it's smaller than a grain of dust it's smaller than a strand of hair and yet it affected our whole planet we're breathing the same water or breathing the same air that gondi breath that playdough socrates that you know Julius Caesar whoever you look at in history breathed and drinking the same waters it's all on this planet it's all regenerated regurgitated repurposed and recycled and it remains here in one form or the other and it's not getting cleaner let's put it that way so one one thing that most people don't understand is the reason we need to live a circular economy in a closed loop system is because that's how we've always lived we're on the same spaceship earth and that when we throw something away there is no way it all remains here and it doesn't doesn't vanish and if people stop their polluting or stop their fossil fuel usage that pollution's still here it just doesn't disappear the earth doesn't say oh they stopped we're okay now poop it's all gone it remains here until somebody figures out an innovation or a solution to clean it up to repurpose it so that it doesn't damage us so that it doesn't hurt us and and that's really this one planet living it's a planetary boundaries type of a living within the safe operating spaces of the resources and and of our planetary boundaries as well so what scares me mark it's just going to say it's like this uh i i know like progression that you know we think it's like space and and things like that where you're talking about the one planet spaceship and everything exists on there it terrifies me the amount of um i saw an article the other day about the amount of litter that's just orbiting earth and like prevent it like that it could be a risk of damaging our uh satellites and things and just and then when you think about the this determination to go to mars and find the resources there like it just feels like we're missing the point you know what are we just going to do just kind of expand and then mess up another area and expand and mess up another area it's like no get your get your house in order first of all um yeah i'm with you there it's uh circularity we have much to learn from indigenous wisdom and indigenous knowledge one of the most gorgeous books i've just been reading um is braiding sweetgrass um by robin uh her surname evades me right now but it's it's just living more holistically with the land um and you mentioned earlier about regenerative agriculture and how actually we're stewards of the land we don't own own it you know we're stewards and and it's it has a future and a life beyond us um and we can be in it as a species or not you know it's um yeah for me it's really black and white there's some there's some light switches or some understanding of collective intelligence of humanity that or or some of us hasn't gone been turned on yet we're still not understanding our our integral tie to our earth we're not understanding our integral tie to one another and how um there's no way that you know we should be fighting against each other because we're all homo homo sapiens we're all in the same spaceship earth and and um that that we've we've gone wrong in some respects that we're dealing with some of these issues there there was um 2018 was really a pinnacle year in many respects it's it's the year that all international organizations switch from a linear siloed approach to solving our global grand challenges to um a systems approach of life a systems view of life to solve our global grand challenges and addressing all the facets of complex problems and and complexity science to really uh stop human suffering human health issues and and fix our global grand challenges but 2018 was also the time when you got your training and and many things were kind of starting to bubble to the surface and change and and you know the world couldn't but harvard came out with a study then and it was actually there's many studies that have been been done um around the world and we've been talking about us since the 70s but um that fossil fuel burning is responsible for one in five early deaths worldwide this was in 2018 by by harvard health review the school of public health of harvard and and um you know think about that you just need to wrap your mind around that one in five early deaths worldwide we're talking billions of people um uh to to hundreds of millions of people every single year cancer heart attack asthma dementia different particles in our air because our air is not going anywhere it's yeah whatever air we pollute or whatever goes into our atmosphere it's not disappearing immediately and we might not be able to see it right away but it remains here and so it is really a big and can be a scary thing in our world to see that for me like what we need to realize that yeah I was going to say for me that um what scares me is the reliance on technology that maybe isn't quite there yet and so there's this kind of rose tinted vision of the future where we've got carbon sequestration down where we've got um hydrogen and that you know um all of these things that require tech advancements and tech and some of them some of it's there and some of it's not um for me like solar is there wherever you know wind is there it happens whether whether you capture it or not tidal is there like even geothermal is is available there it's not owned by anybody um I'm really concerned by the um the advancements and the kind of assumption that we can switch to things like hydrogen and that will be the solution for me this you still have to create that right someone still owns that so then there's still this profit piece of this and also the transport from like a a to b so the the resource is being used to to create this product and then yeah it just it makes no sense to me my husband so we're having this chat this morning and my husband was like you just got to wonder in those boardrooms of the people you know who is still hell bent on the fossil fuel uh journey and progressing with that you've just got to wonder and they say if they sit around in the boardrooms and like someone in the back of their mind thinking we really should stop like we've really got to do something different or you just can't imagine what goes on to to continue plundering the the planet and causing death the the statistics you've just shared like what kind of human does it take to not not be compassionate and care and want to change it really is terrifying and for me um there's another group um called truth teller life truth teller dot life I think is um and we've only just started kind of helping them but it's about um really changing the culture on whistleblowing which feels really important because if you know out on the street if we see something wrong with someone doing something wrong we feel obligated to stop and change things or you know in our homes or it feels really strange that that doesn't exist in a work environment and so truth teller um I've created a kind of platform and campaigns around making whistleblowing like a a moral obligation much like if you saw abuse happening in the workplace like you'd report it it it feels really strange for me that companies would want to keep their employees quiet if they saw wrong doing like that's horrific in my mind and we have this open kind of policy with our team it's like what are we doing wrong tell us and let's let's make it better um yeah for me there's too much kind of false um stories false articles created about this kind of technological hope that's coming but actually fundamentally doesn't really change anything it's just the products that are changing the structures are still there the profit um is still there the hierarchies is still there uh yeah well I want to ask you the two hardest questions that I have for you um the day really the first one is one I'm a sustainable development goal advocate I believe that there is only one global moonshot or plan for the future and that's the paris agreement and the sustainable development goals was that came up with in 2015 as a clear roadmap of targets and indicators from where we're going to go or need to go and to reach a better future by 2030 I definitely am in alignment with you that we need to do a sooner than later or say are we going to make it it would be better to double down and make sure we're on that exponential path and actually try to achieve it beforehand there's a lot of controversy a lot of things around that do you feel that the paris agreement the sustainable development goals is a good roadmap a plan to get us to a better sustainable future how do you feel about that and are are there any other plans or global plans out there the EU has the the new green deal then there's donut economics there's planetary boundaries there's a few others out there but they're more regionally like the EU they're more or the UK and different areas for certain things what what what's your thoughts or opinions on on what's what's the plan what's what's the goals what how are we going to get there so for me firstly wow the United Nations sustainable development goals like it's credit where credit is due I can I can imagine all of the people who you know started working at the UN because they wanted to bring change and the amount of effort and you know jostling to get this you know this statement in the paris agreement or or not you know like credit where credit is due that must have been hard work and what's absolutely gorgeous about them is that it includes things like gender it includes things like life on lands there were this piece you know it's it's really it's a roadmap that is broad and includes so many elements that that sometimes get neglected when we're talking about climate so that that's just incredible for me the most exciting one is that SDG 17 is the kind of partnerships coming together for change and for me that's the space where there's the most opportunity I think and we actually used another one that you mentioned there the Kate Woolworth donut economics we're developing a charitable element to climate 2025 keep a lookout for it it's the movement's trust it's just going through the charities commission in the UK at the moment and we're using that structure to frame the work that that charity can do because again it's got the ecological barriers that can't be broken and there's also that you know social foundations that that shouldn't be broken either so I absolutely love frameworks that include other elements other than just climate or the environment I think another really exciting thing is seeing what's possible beyond that so again I mentioned the kind of global citizens assembly and participatory democracy like I think it's it would be naive to kind of continue to assume that the structures that we currently have are the only ones that can be useful it's like it's it should be collaborative not competitive so I think like there's research going on across the world about you know global governance and and what it could look like and for me the more citizens are engaged in in helping shape policies and shape the direction that we're going and in the better I just think anyone working on this just yeah a deep awe and gratitude for the amount of time and hours it must have taken. I had Alex Barker on the podcast a while back and she co-authored with Sam Conniff the book how to be more pirate so the second version of being more pirate and they spoke a lot about that people's assembly and the different democracy options that there are especially in the United Kingdom what's what's going on so I love that the the hardest question I have for you today is really the burning question WTF and it's not the swear word that we've all been asking each other you know although I'm sure sure we've been frustrated in saying saying that as well it's actually what's the future and so I want want to know so I'm being very leading and I'm trying to get out so we talked about what's the global goal or the plan the action plan the roadmap the navigation of where we're going to go for the future you you like the sustainable development goals you like the donut economics and but now I'm asking you the burning question WTF what's the future I think what I probably should have said in the the question before is the limitations of these frameworks you know that they do look for these dates firing the future and we do need to change now and but for me what's really exciting is the change that's happening irrespective of the structures that that are already there so to take for example we spoke it's spoken quite a lot back since your rebellion but to take to take that for example one of the almost byproducts if you will of this movement is that it's creating communities connected communities on the ground and so it's what it's leaving behind is almost like a legacy of citizens on a local level who understand this crisis they've found each other they're creating little pockets of like community orchards and like lobbying things for their local governments so on the one hand the future for me is is really really micro and it's like how do we make sure that food get stays in that same place how do we make sure that economies whatever they might be stay and benefit those local communities and then the other level is this massive kind of macro level I guess is that we need to care about those communities on the other side of the planet you know it's we are deeply connected and for me the future is I guess radical compassion and radical collaboration and connectivity we can't we don't know what's what's going to come I mean we can see the science and see that it's going to get worse before it gets better if it gets better and so for me the only future that would be that I'd consider a success would be one where we're working together for the better betterment of everybody people plan it and every every living being on it and doing so at both that kind of you know neighborly level local level but also that compassion and awareness and knowledge of what's going on everywhere else in the world and taking taking that as something you should care about rather than oh somebody else can deal with that like that's not happening here so I don't need to care about that um yeah that for me does that answer your question that's quite a big question yeah absolutely you got it right you actually got it right because the answer all the answers are right I've asked them many times and every answer is different so but but it's it's important to be thinking about that because it really ties to whether we're going to make that future if you know what it is if you've thought about it if you've got some kind of a plan you're definitely going to get there but if it's kind of wishy washy and unsure I'm pretty positive you're not going to get there because it just it life doesn't happen and work that way what'll happen if someone else or some other generation or some other culture or community will deliver that future for you some government or yeah there's um do you know on that note there's something there's a really gorgeous thing that um we've been working called benchmark for nature um and and exactly what you're saying there is either you grasp the future and take the right direction or you leave it and somebody else will feel that um it's a collaboration between Oxford University um some people in the investment space like um they've been working in finance for a long time and with this um new kind of trend of the disclosures investment disclosures and things there's a very real need to have the data and have the metrics to be able to report on investment and finance there's so much power in finance to achieve this transition and this group are working from a science um science base to kind of figure out what a metric system might look like and they're doing this way before I think the when the um regulations change in Europe is January 2022 so they're doing this like they've got this foresight and starting all of that has been going for a year now these researchers figuring out the best way the best metric system to help investors and people with wealth to care about to be able to make informed decisions about where they're putting their money um and and and they say regularly say that if they didn't do that something else would come forward that's less valid you know and less rooted in science and data um and then you risk greenwashing which actually doesn't achieve anything so I'm with you there you you can either be part of the change or if you know if you're passive and uh you know there's that sort of state of apathy then it's going to happen whether you like it or not and I guess you can't really complain at a later date if you haven't been part of the the journey you can't really complain about the outcome later on right I'm with you so you and the beginning we spoke about your kids and you mentioned that kind of a big part of this journey are you getting passionate about it was your concern about the future of your children um the last hardest question I have for you in that respect is basically what kind of legacy are you are you creating now to leave for your children or as a ancestor of the future in the year 2100 what kind of legacy do you want to leave the planet for that time I can see this um they're being sort of two answers to this one of them's the kind of um ideological legacy um that's like you know yeah they'll see me trying to like badly grow my own virgin things and have those skills to be able to grow their own food they'll see we're lucky enough to have some expatriate chickens um and so you know seeing them prepare for animals and and seeing the benefit from them so there's this kind of dream state that I want them to be able to have those skills to be able to uh function in a society that will be very different from now but then I have to just I feel like I'll be doing a disservice to um parents everywhere if I didn't acknowledge how hard this this pandemic has been my kids spend far too long on the computer gaming with their friends like I I'm I work full time my husband works full time and as much as you want to be the best the best you can be as a parent is they're their own people like right now might we've got issues of um like understanding themselves and um and love the concept of love and sexuality and things like those are real issues concerning them so my part is is in helping them be who they want to be and it might not be this eco eco able and like connected to parents and it might not be that they might be advocates for something else I think um what I really hope is that that I've created space for them to be themselves um and to ask questions constantly ask questions um and and to kind of find the find the people find your tribe you know find the people that make you feel good about yourself and that you feel good about them um we've had like instances of bullying and things like this it's just it it's it's such a difficult question to answer because their worlds are so very different um than than the one that I'm seeing and of course they know what I do they know you know I remember a couple of years ago when their report from the United Nations came out with we've we've got 10 years we've got a change before 2030 my god that gave my son nightmares like what do you mean we've only got 10 years like are we all going to die in 2030 like it's it's so hard to frame what we're doing in a way that fits um their worlds right now um and I don't know what the what the answer would be like I constantly make mistakes as a parent I constantly want to have more time to be able to do more things with them but like we used to have an allotment it's like pulling teeth trying to get them to go to the allotment and dig dig in the margin but you know plant seeds and things they just they just weren't interested and it made us all really unhappy so uh I don't think I the feature that I see I guess is that they that they care they're compassionate that they're themselves they know themselves and they feel able to be the best version of themselves we don't know what the rest of the you know the rest of society is going to look like but at least if they do that then hopefully they can find companions and people to journey with them when they're going gets tough and they have that solid foundation of who they are and the best kind of humans to be who knows my son might invent some sort of amazing computer game that somehow makes I don't know makes a change and who knows there's a big trend in that so there's a lot of gamification and AI going on in the climate space and and direct air capture and many other things on how can you gamify people being active and and getting out and and contributing to the environment to ecology to raise awareness so that's great if there was one message you could depart to um my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life what would it be your message oh I feel like I'd be stating Lars but it's find your superpower and I and I honestly never used to be the sort of person to use words like that and probably there's still circles that I exist in where if I were to use those words I'd be like what who have you become um but my goodness doesn't it feel good when you find yourself and find that you're able to make a difference and find joy from doing that despite the kind of the negative uh information that we're working with here like it's just find yourself and be part of the change there's space for everyone right and we need everyone what should young innovators in your field non-profit be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a real impact oh there's so many ways I can't stress enough how um how important it is right now to be politically active um to understand the systems of oppression and the systems of patriarchy and just yeah it needs everybody to um to kind of understand that and know where they can make a difference I don't know what it's like across the world but in the UK we didn't even learn about politics that you like you could take it later really later on and when you're about sort of 16 as a something an option to choose but like that's that's a deep rooted um skill to know how how laws are made and how to change that so for me that's incredibly important to anyone any generation um and and also I think what I've learned is if the if the thing doesn't exist yet and you can you have an idea or an initiative or something just create it um I've never never owned my own business before and this is this I guess is a not-for-profit slightly different than traditional corporates um but I never thought I could do this um you know but I found somebody who's supporting me and helping me grow um and the team's expanded and we're creating something that we felt that there was a need for um and it's been it's been really well received externally and we seem to be filling fulfilling that need and there's a massive demand for what we're doing and so for me yeah it's finding the courage to to create the the initiatives and the solutions that that you think are right that's all I have for you today and if there's something that you didn't get to get off your chest or discuss with us today now it's your chance to depart those words with them otherwise I'm done and I thank you for being on the show oh that's so very kind of you um I think the last thing to do is just to like to to regeneratively check out of this meeting and we do this for the meetings we kind of check in as a human and I check out as a human and just to say that I'm feeling completely inspired and joyous connecting to you learning you know learning where there's alignment and similarity in our work um and so yeah I'm feeling really hopeful leaving this conversation and with with deep gratitude to you for holding the space thank you so much I really appreciate it and it's been a sheer pleasure and I hope to catch up with you again very soon and to see some continuing beautiful projects and missions and actions going on around the world that you have because it's great work and I'm glad that we could connect and spend this time thank you very much Sarah thanks Mark have a good day