 Welcome folks to the 24th of May, 2023 areas working group call. Today we're going to continue our discussion the open wall foundation. This is a hyper ledger meeting and so the antitrust policy and the code of conduct are in effect. Links are available in the wiki page that is available newly in the chat, which I repeatedly paste because of zooms annoying feature. And so we. Yeah, so please be mindful of those and, and please reach out if you have any concerns, either to Stephen Kern and I, or to hyper ledger leadership. And we will help solve that particular issue. Are there any folks that wish to make to introduce themselves today. Good morning everyone. This is this is what I've noticed from into that. I'm going to introduce myself. This is my first time attending this areas working group call. However, my company's been working on building areas trust ecosystems for the last couple of years. We're currently working on. This case and I'd like to present at some point down the road, present some details about what, what exactly we're doing with farmers, but I did listen into the recording of the last week's call and thought it'd be important for me to participate in today's call. Thank you. Okay, welcome and yes, we'd love to hear about your case here in the in the call in the future. I think that would be wonderful. Anyone else that would like to introduce themselves. Daniela your hand is up I was going to ask you to if you didn't volunteer so this work. I don't have recently attended one of these working calls I do listen to them as everybody knows I listened to many of our working group calls on my lovely walks down to the coast. Thank you for those who do not know me I'm Daniela Barbosa and I'm the executive director of the hyper ledger foundation so I'm looking forward to today's discussion being here to be as helpful as I can. Thank you Daniela for for being here. Anyone else. I see lots of familiar names and we're glad you all of you are here to to be clear. Excellent. Okay, quick announcements. We have dice Europe and June 7th or 9th. This is the, it's not IAW but it's IAW adjacent and happening in Europe. And so I believe the format will be quite similar. And, and that's going on. Also that did XYZ hackathon and Steven mentioned this before the, the utility of having a, an areas that developer to monitor discord and answer questions from those involved. And then I wanted to stick to a non creds workshop here as well, which is coming up. Like really soon. That would be next week on Wednesday. So actually, during this call, I think. So that that's a workshop. I believe this is one of the ones hosted by the by hyper ledger. Yes. So that is that correct. That is correct. Yeah. Yeah. So, you can register for that there and that is free to attend. I heard Steven describe, I don't see him on at the moment, but he had described that as everything from what it was from the very basics all the way to updates and what's happened recently. And so that would be, if you're interested, that's a great call, a great workshop to attend and expand your knowledge and Steven's the right person to to be involved there. Because of his contributions in that area. Any other announcements we should have on the list, but don't. Alright, and any work updates that are urgent enough that they need to come up in this call. We're trying to sort of fast track the discussion to leave as much time as possible for the open wall foundation discussion. Okay. Our agenda topic is the open wall foundation. And I have a couple things that I wanted to kind of cover to get the conversation started. And then I believe we should continue. And everyone is welcome to speak and to share your opinions or ask questions or, or ask that we discuss a particular topic that hasn't been and you feel like it should be, even if you don't have the answers. All of those things are welcome in our discussion. Is there anything besides the open wall foundation that we should have our on our agenda today. As a discussion point. Okay. We do have the chat available if you would prefer to type instead of talk, but you're very welcome to also speak up. If, if it gets busy, then we'll then we'll use the zoom hands feature that keeps track in the participants list of who raised their hand first and that's an easy way to pass the mic to the next next person. So, so yes. Okay. So with that, let me dive into a quick overview to sort of restart the discussion from where we were and I'm going to start from down. These are the notes from the last meeting on the topic that we collaboratively created. And I expect today that we will talk about some similar things. And I paste them here as a method of sort of referring to and in growing the, you know, the, the notes on the discussion itself. We do have the recording, of course, and it does get transcribed with the recording to the cloud method. And so we'll have that as well. But the, but that'll help us sort of organize our thoughts as on this topic. I wanted to call out two things here. One is that Tracy Kurt had a having not been at the meeting last time had a great threat on discord here that that I wanted to link to in the areas channel. Where she where she shared some things and answers some questions. And so that's that's highly relevant. I didn't pull the whole text Tracy in here, but wanted to link it for those that hadn't seen that conversation. I had also taken these notes and stuck them into a discussion topic on the areas group, or on the areas. GitHub repo, not the areas are seized, but the regular areas one there is there is one of those and we. There wasn't any traffic on that at least as to last night when I was putting my notes together, which is okay. I had shared that link also in the in the areas discord channel. And then the other thing that I wanted to do as wearing my community leader hat is I wanted to highlight a few things that I felt were important and talk about them a little bit from my understanding of things. I'm clear that this is the opinion of Sam as a volunteer leader in the community and so I wanted to highlight these things is important. And there's things that I don't think are issues which is one of the reasons I'm kind of bringing it up to round out the discussion. And it was, it's important to me that there's a continuity of community, no matter what happens. So if we were to move things like meetings call wikis calls calendars, etc. need to have close facsimiles to what we have today does not to be exactly the same but but the mechanisms need to be there so we can just kind of keep working together as a community. We need to still have meetings and still have things and have it be organized more or less the way that it is today it's worked really well over the over the years that areas has existed in hyper ledger foundation so any move would need to make that happen. And all existing people and work continues with as little disruption as possible. I, given my conversations with the open wallet folks that I that we have talked with on this topic. This, this should not be an issue as long as the organizational support is present. This is something that we could definitely talk about it. And, and, and make it happen so I don't anticipate this being an issue but may be necessary to coordinate a few things before, you know, an official move happens should that be an issue. So I think that that is not that doesn't represent a very large issue there. The second thing that I wanted to bring up is a continuity of brand Aries has a brand it's known. I think that it perhaps isn't known for the things that we hoped it would be. But it is a brand that is recognizable and at least in the in the near term that needs to be a brand that is retained in lives in one place. And I think that it would be fairly disruptive to have a lot of confusion about whether Aries had moved or hadn't moved because parts of it had or parts of it hadn't. And so I think that we need to be sensitive to the continuity of brand it doesn't mean that that we have options that are necessarily off the table but we need to carefully consider that. And that's what we're doing and I've linked here, both of the, the wiki page that is currently up for describing hyperlegia areas, and also the original announcement post which has some stuff in there as well. These both have not been updated in quite some time. And it may be useful, independent of an o wf move to to clarify or to focus the things that the thing obviously we're not going to go change the announcement post but but but clarify on the hyperlegia areas wiki page could be could be useful there. In order to to help that to happen. And the last thing that I think is important and I don't have any bullet points under this is the promotion of the community. And I think that there's, we certainly are aware of of what hyperlegia does for the promotion of the community. And that would be in that is I believe an important topic to consider, not that open wallet wouldn't, but just we need to understand the nature of that and how it would actually happen. And so, and so with that sort of brief overview and kick starting of that particular conversation. I'd love to open the floor to hear from folks. And by the way, this being opinion of Sam you're free to of course to disagree with me or anything else. And that's important for for healthy conversation moving forward as a project. So, yes. So, now's a great time to hear the thoughts and opinions of folks as we continue our discussion from last week, and Tracy is first in line with her hand up go ahead Tracy. Yeah, thanks. So just wanted to make some comments here about some things that I think might be useful for the conversation. If and when you do decide to move to the open wallet foundation. I think this is a great start Sam with the important things I think this is where you know the open wallet foundation would need to know the sorts of things that you would be expecting as far as coming to the open wallet foundation. And because this will allow them to understand where they might need to, you know, spend money in order to make some of these things happen or, you know, basically be able to tell you, we don't provide X at this point. This is our plan for providing X, whatever that might be, or whatever the case is right so, you know, there's been some things that I think we knew about with three relationship to areas and hyper ledger and some of the things that exist and I think maybe under promotion of community, there could be some of the stuff around education, you know with the ed X platform. The meetups, the, you know, different webinars that hyper ledger provides those are some of the things that I think, you know, are useful to call out, because you probably expect those things but might not be, you know, on the radar, if you will, of the open wallet foundation at this point and so just to be very clear about what it is that your expectations would be I think is is really a good thing to highlight here. Thanks Tracy, I should. I want to add a detail that this reminds me of I when I was in ESC. I had a conversation directly with Daniel Goldschider that I say that correctly. He, he's the he's the ED at the WWF at the moment. We talked about that conversation and that he would he would love to know and so rather than me taking a guess at what would be useful. I thought it would be better to have this conversation as a community and then we could sort of collectively pass. You know, collect the things necessary if we felt like that would be useful move going forward or, you know, a useful step in trying to figure this out. And so I that is pending and the balls kind of in my court there and my intent was to, you know, to gather the things that we as a community talked about in order to in order to put that together. And so I thanks for reminding me of that and your contributions there. Helen your hand is up. Hello, good morning everyone. Putting on my hat here as chair of the hyper ledger marketing committee. And for those of you who don't know what that is. It's a group of the membership, the sort of dues paying members members of hyper ledger come together and talk about sort of the marketing and business items as related to the growth and the growth of hyper ledger as a brand and you know around around the globe that we talk about campaigns and content campaigns and events that hyper ledger will be at we help, you know, write blogs and you know contribute content where appropriate. When you mentioned Sam about the opportunity to update some of the messaging and branding around areas I think that's that is an incredible idea I think that's definitely long overdue and I think that there's a lot of resources that the community could help support with that. And Danielle I feel free to jump in here as well I know that there is a campaign coming up to update hyper ledger hyper ledgers brand as a whole. And there will be opportunities for the projects to you know kind of gain that that that branding development and upgrading as well. So there will be time, kind of specifically where communities, the community will be called out to do this work in the very near future. So, I definitely wouldn't would welcome and encourage anybody who is interested in, you know, perhaps, including terms like wallets or, you know anything that would gain greater clarity and communicate. So I think it's a good plan here to be a part of that movement because I, you know, I think that was definitely appropriate and good time for that. That is correct. Our marketing manager Ben Thomas presented to the technical oversight committee at hyper ledger a couple weeks back around the branding and the branding opportunities for projects. We're doing a branding refresh. The hyper ledger foundation brand is seven years old. Well, the hyper ledger branding the foundation started in 2021 as an umbrella projects. But yes, that will be happening in late July, late June. I'm sorry. Thank you for that. So I have the wiki there's a couple, some new folks that are trying to have the wiki link in here reminder to add yourself to the, to the attendee list. I would also welcome any help editing and clarifying correcting notes on the meeting itself. I will attempt to do so but help was is is really useful there. So, yes. So please correct anything that I misrepresented or that I miss or anything else there's I'm just, there's there's no attempt to filter anything I'm just not perfect to representing things that are down. I really appreciate that. Okay, so that's helpful on a hyper ledger brand refresh and marketing. Thank you. Helen and Danielle for that. Other topics that folks want to bring up and talk about. It's also a perfectly okay to bring up a topic you think needs to be discussed even if you don't have anything in particular to say about it, but you think it ought to be. Yeah, just a quick one because I don't want to reiterate what I said last week. But I think for me still, it's like there's two topics where one is like, should we move it to open wallet but I'm also curious about like, what most about like what then is the scope of areas and how does it work with like, if the things you're working on exceeds the scope of areas, and I think that's for me. An answer to that question would could have a big impact on what I think would be the right thing to do, especially because we're just now working more on code for building SSI solutions. And then the question is arise that and it's like hyper ledger a home where we can have these types of generic frameworks and then like also that the arise brand or like something else type of brand is linked to that. I think arise really the SSI protocols that together form like the SSI did come protocols that together form an intro profile with adjacent code bases that implement arise. I think that's for me an important question on like what, yeah, what's important. So thank you for bringing that up. I think that we lightly touched on the area scope thing last week but then didn't really get into it. And so it may be useful to have more discussion on that today. Other other topics that folks want to bring up before we go that direction. I put my hand up, Sam. John, go ahead. Yeah, so it's john from from government British Columbia. I think one thing I've been thinking about and raising with a few people is that I wonder like if it's a little bit reversed sort of the conversation. So Aries. Sorry. You know we've invested years of effort and millions and millions of dollars as a community and as the government, British Columbia, and it's a huge asset. And I wonder like if open wallet foundation can describe to us like what it is. They feel like they can offer essentially. So instead of us, like, just trying to figure out if it feels like we're trying to figure out how to fit into something that we don't quite understand. We know and understand, you know, the hyper ledger infrastructure and governance structure and, you know, who the people are and so forth. But we don't really understand. It's kind of an empty vessel and we have to be mindful of the investment that we've made and what what is best for our investment. That's the most topic I think I think I think of Aries as not just Aries protocols but a, you know, set of frameworks that can make you that can accept protocols credential for Max crypto schemes that are from a wide variety of sources so that Aries agent can speak those different things, different languages. It's not just Aries. That's him. So, on your first point, what is the pitch from WF that is, that's entirely fair the, the conversations that have been had have been less group conversations and more sort of individual conversations. And I think one of the really useful things we could do obviously at the, at the off the cuff right now is a little too soon but I think that we could, you know, sort of provide some some updates from our community discussions and then extend an offer for that to occur soon. And, you know, next week, for example, that could that we could use to evaluate that. And I think that that is a great point. And as a, as a group, I think, some of us know some, but not certainly all of us. And, and I doubt that all of us know all. So that that's a great, that's a great point john. I really appreciate that and, and you got a plus one from Steve as well on that topic. Very good. Tracy. So just on that particular point. I will tell you that every other week is a conflict for people in the OWF with the technical advisory council meeting. So next week would be a conflict obviously for them with this particular meeting because they happen at the same time. So, you know, I'm perfectly happy to do that introduction into the open wallet foundation to this group. It's just that next week is probably going to be challenging. And so, yeah, I don't know if you want me to run through the presentation that exists for open wallet foundation today or if we don't have enough time then we can obviously do that two weeks from today. I think we need more depth. I've seen presentations and I think we need more depth like how our governing structures going to work how can areas be part of the governing structure, what are budgets, what are resources that are going to be offered, you know, to Sam's earlier right like, you know, how do we ensure that things are, there's an operating structure. I think we could inform that discussion with the sort of aforementioned list of air quote expectations, right, about about how that would about what we have or certainly the things that we appreciate today. And so, it strikes me that after this call we could assemble that and provide at that at least in draft form right and then and then that gives the open wallet foundation an opportunity to to see that and then be able to respond to those those things specifically I think would be would be a really useful thing so it might be a little bit, depending on kind of what the what the, you know what meetings are able to make. But that's certainly a possibility. Steve your hands up. Yes, I am. And I noticed that. Well, let me ask this question. What, what other than hyper ledger being ledger based and areas not being tied to a ledger. What is it about open wallet foundation. I've precipitated this discussion I mean, why are we not having the discussion of joining W3C or diff or what, what brought about this particular discussion I think I missed that piece and it's always been when I've been in these discussions it's been hyper ledger is ledger based open wallet foundation it's not tied to a ledger, therefore it makes sense and and that seems to be the overriding motivation. But that doesn't necessarily seem to me like a whole reason to make a shift and so I'm, I'm still a little confused on on what, what was the genesis for this discussion. If somebody could fill me and I'd be grateful. Steve and Andre your hands up. Yeah, I think that's that's an interesting point that Steve is bringing up so I from for me personally I think it's a perfect match actually because the areas community has been building agents in the sense of wallets or as an underpinning framework for for ages. So basically the, the, the topical match with wf is the best that there ever was between projects under under hyper ledger I think in that space so I think it is a is a very, very good match in terms of the space that is tackled. So that's, that's it for me and I think this is why this discussion is so extremely valid and timely now at this point. Steve. So that, that does make sense. When I first heard about the open wallet foundation, they, the way it was described to me is, they weren't going to do any, any specification work, they just wanted to bring in projects from other places and there be implementations of those projects and specifications that can be certified and and offered to others that maybe didn't have the resources or interest to, to build those underlying libraries. So that's a lot. And that made a lot of sense to me. But what I think what's still what surprised me is, well I think it would be a good idea for them to help areas build its libraries and build one on all the different platforms and languages and help that get certified into something that companies could and people could download. I'm still puzzled by what the offer is for hosting areas creation there because that that seemed to be a little bit out of the realm of what I understood open wallet was looking for. And so if we shift the whole areas project over there, they are going to be in charge of spec generation work. And so that's the disconnect for me. I think it would be great, a great venue for areas products to be certified validated and hit the market in a greater way I think that would be wonderful. And that's the hosting of the project that seemed to be just a little bit orthogonal to how it was described the open wallet mission, at least to me. So that's that's kind of where I'm getting hung up on. So I'll offer my perspective on how this happened. The, we heard about the creation of the open wall foundation and there was sort of inviting to the, you know, some some pre organization announcements and folks that were invited. And then it got created. You know, I was I was aware of it but but as a as a person not as a community leader within areas. And then during the, the sort of the pre phase where it wasn't officially organized yet because we're happening. I did volunteer for the, for the Aries, I did also did this for did come but also volunteered the areas project to come and present at those sort of pre organization meetings to to sort of present what we were and what was related and, and there's several of us went and helped share the various aspects of the of the projects that we have. And the overriding question. And that was something that I volunteered. There was the overriding question at the end was like, Well, what are the intentions of the areas project as it relates to open wallet. And, and I didn't have an answer for that. And so, at this point there's, there's been general questions, very general in the sense that like it well hi how does Aries feel about this. And, but not really certainly an official proposal floated really by anyone. There's been sort of unofficial conversations that mostly happened at the IC. And so the part of the awkwardness comes from the fact that I think that the open wall foundation was launched with a scope that appears to cover Aries and one of the things that the different organizations have attempted to do like the trust of IP and different W3C and and hyper ledger is to try and figure out what people are doing and not necessarily overlap too much. And so it was a little awkward to me that the open wall foundation was created sort of without prior communication or consideration with the Aries community at all given that we're the largest open source, you know, efforts oriented in this area. And so that awkwardness kind of remains in the sense that we haven't still, I think that in our request to the, as John suggests, I think in our request to the OWF to come and sort of make an official pitch or proposal that that could be a little bit more clarified instead of sort of having, you know, ad hoc conversations about it that that could that could definitely help there. There's a couple of things, Steve, about about what Aries is, and we talked about this a little bit last time, but I think that that's worth, that's worth discussing. Aries is kind of has evolved into three things. And I believe those three things existed and were created within Aries because certainly at the time that it began, there wasn't any other places to do these types of things. And so we started from the idea that we wanted to have software that could talk to it with each other independent of implementation. And so we began the creation of, you know, protocols and communication expectations that that ended up becoming we didn't label it at the time as V1 but it became did come V1. And, and then the associated protocols of course, you know, there was several created early basic message was one, they could issue credential present proof or others. And so those fell under the spec work because there wasn't really, there wasn't really a place to do that kind of spec work at the time. Did come be to sort of became an effort that graduated out of Aries and has happened in its entirety at the diff and within that organization. And, and so, anyway, the third thing that Aries kind of is, is the creation of interoperability profiles which is not really spec work exactly but it's kind of spec work adjacent and the fact that you're trying to assemble existing into a collection and call it a profile that then people can sort of target as a as a full stack implementation that falls all the way through that profile. And so those three things are there, we have discussed that the protocol sides of things now have a possible home in the in the, the diffs did come users group. And that certainly that topic covers there and that could be a reasonable home for that there will be. I anticipate that somewhere this could still kind of be an Aries effort, but could also be a larger open wallet effort where the creation of one or more profiles exists in order to coordinate community development efforts and collaboration around a particular, you know, set of technologies as they're as they're created. And so that's kind of what it has been I that that description I gave doesn't talk about the sort of what the scope of Aries actually is, but those are the three mechanical bits that have existed in the Aries ecosystem. And we have discussed that it's certainly the did come piece of that would not. Or sorry the protocol design pieces of that related to did come would not be homed inside of OWF but but does have a sort of a logical home over in the did come users group at the diff. And with that, Ken your hands up. Yeah, I wanted to comment on the fact that as Aries expands its footprint and works with other protocols besides our transports and protocols besides the did come and will that work be hosted at the diff as well. I think Aries is a place where bringing together multiple formats and the ability to plug in multiple protocols and exchange mechanisms. I think is a great strength of Aries and it has been a great foundation to allow people to explore that in an interoperable way. I don't know that the spec word could all be contained at the at the diff maybe it could, but that's something to consider as well. I think looking at what areas has accomplished with its rather unique combination of work on specifications work on actual implementations and interop profiles has been extremely successful and I think that continuing that on that great track record is something that I hope Aries continues to do. It's a little bit worth noting that hyper ledger is not really a spec organization itself but within the Aries project it was necessary to document the types of interactions that we expected to happen within the Aries community and there gradually has been more and more interest outside of the areas community for that to happen so there's a there's a tiny bit of awkwardness there in the sense that things within areas that then became popular outside of it and and whether that's a spec creation or not depends a little bit on sort of perspective scope and what happens with it. I think it would be useful to have a conversation about the scope of Aries. As Timo brought up I think that that would be useful for example for not only us to sort of have a good conversation about but to be understood by the open well foundation as they as they consider who we are and how it might fit. And so I'd love to do that we John contributed a sort of a statement here that I attempted to transcribe accurately about about what Aries actually is. And I will start it off simply with a historical note. So I'd love to hear from from folks what they in their mind what what it is and it's clear that it's been a while since we've updated and so it's it's quite possible that what exists in approximately in sort of community tribal knowledge has not been well serialized into into anything that is like on the on the Aries wiki page for example. It's likely that we have sort of made. We have refined our scope or made it more clear over time but not really like serialized it anywhere that and it's possible that we don't have an even understanding in our community about exactly what it is and so I'd love to hear from folks about what they think it is. So from a historical perspective areas was spun out of the indie project, because we recognize that the need to have software that communicated using ledger assets but not on the ledger would be a would be a useful and necessary bit. And so there was some some origins inside of indie of that concept that became Aries and so the original motivation to spin that out was the fact that was that there is utility beyond just an indie agent rather two agents that can can talk to other ledgers as well. And so from the beginning, at least in my mind that was that was a motivational goal to have happen there. At the time we did not specifically discuss, I believe credential formats or protocols, but but those line up well with the original motivation was to have software that did SSI things that could use ledgers as a resource but was not tied to a specific ledger. And so the the mission of adopting credential formats beyond what was supported in indie and protocols beyond what was originally supported in indie also feels very natural to me in that. But that is only kind of what has existed in my brain. I'd love to hear from for folks what in their mind indie actually is or what the scope of the project is, regardless of what's recorded, what you feel it has been in your involvement in the project. One thing to note, one thing to note I think Sam is the, the Aries agent test harness, which I think is a really valuable asset, and to a certain extent, a software expression of what Aries is. So, John, that's really good and that's probably the fourth thing that is different enough from the other three things that I should record that separately so I will there's also an Aries mobile test. But there's no reason why those test harnesses can't start to include other protocols I don't think not have been the guy who developed it. So you talked about profiles. You know, I think we should have profiles in the future that include, you know, open ID for VC and things like this. Certainly we already do multiple credential formats that's already in play right. So multiple credential formats is already in play. The other, the other part that is in play already in the proposed the IP three which is not done, because among other things conversations like this are happening is the is using did com v2 which was developed entirely outside of the Aries community. And so I think there is already precedent for involving things defined elsewhere. Another thing, as an example is the, the presentation exchange definition at the diff is has also been referenced in the IP two. Right, and then I don't know exactly if this fits but another key part of makes Aries wallets work for people is the, you know, presentation layer activities like OCA for Aries. And that's internationalization branding and so forth, which I think is overlooked. I don't know where to stick that in my list of another one. I don't know where to stick OCA so I'm going to stick it on its own item unless it becomes obvious that it needs to go somewhere else. It may fall close enough under an interop profile it's not really an Aries in our profile but definitely something there that we can talk about it but but yes. So, going back to the scope question. What do folks feel like the scope of areas is Timo. I think, to me, it currently feels as SSI built on top of Ditcom, which probably maybe isn't right. I wasn't there from the start when Aries was created but I think that's how I perceive it and I think a lot of people perceive it. And I think also, primarily using high pleasure in the team. I don't think you're wrong that that's a common thing. And the fact that you've been in our community and a massive contributor for a while and sort of still have that scope means that we haven't really had this conversation at the at the regularity that we should have had, perhaps, you know, like a year ago, or more that that would have helped to clarify that. So I don't think your perception there that this is both did come focused and indie focused is I don't think that's rare, particularly outside of our community. Yeah, I'm not saying I think it should be this it's just what I think it is right now. Right. I agree. But I think it has evolved to much more. And I think probably, you know, you mean the same, because it obviously does more than just in the ledger stuff. And I think this is also a clear added value that would be very useful for WF and under WF. And I think that's, yeah, I think that might be, from my point of view, a bit of the frustration that we haven't been clear and vocal enough about the fact that we have been for several years, been able to do multiple formats and the framework, you know, multiple ledgers or no ledger, whatever did come method, did method you want, and all this so it's a little bit like I have said to some people like people, you know, well maybe it's unfair that people have even read the read me but the read me is are wrong. I stole classios from the, the chat. Warren your hands up. Yes, thank you. I would say that my perception as somebody who's really only got involved in the last year is that the foundation. The things of Aries are certainly indie and non creds, and did come. And I can tell you for sure that although there's been evolution to support other things that the perception outside of this group. But that I encounter is that areas is those things. And so, whether we currently believe that we have a wider story or not, many outside of this community do not believe that. So there is, I think it's worthwhile to go through the exercise of defining what it is that we are, but equally or even more importantly, we need to communicate that externally in a very persuasive way which has not been convincing so far. And Timo you asked who's using, and you mentioned afgo. There's part of the downsides of having an open community is that we don't always hear directly about the people that are doing stuff. I'm going to point briefly at the entity that effort that that Jorge mentioned, they've been working on really cool stuff for a long time that's not well known and I don't need to make some protocol point in so, but there's a lot of stuff going on that we don't hear from. And so that's, it's a bummer, we love them to come lots of folks are just busy or the time doesn't work out very well. But the, but there's definitely efforts, for example, that I've seen with acopai that are using jsonal decredentials and and with with pure dids but not any dids. And it's a little bit awkward now because of the the ongoing transition that we need to do away from those those legacy dids but there was never an intention to to to anchor those and so there's there's some of that. But but the other thing and the other thing that I'll mention to is Timo is is the excitement when I learned that AFJ was adding support for the open ID connect protocols and some of the other credential formats got me really excited, because the piece of the vision that we have long wanted to do hadn't yet been realized. The other interesting thing as evidence, for example, about what Warren said is that the perception outside of our group is that areas is very rigidly those things. And that really has to do with the fact that we have primarily as a group been focused on getting stuff done, which is great. I think that still, we are the largest community of independent operators and implementations that can demonstrate compatibility. All across a larger scope and other efforts are sort of catching up from a very credential focused thing. But, but, but that's what we've been done and we haven't spent a lot of time marketing, externally, necessarily about our efforts and I think that that's one of the reasons why are the external perception has suffered is that is that that is true. And one thing that I'll offer an evidence was more than a year ago within the, I'm going to blank on the name of it but there was an effort within the, the Ethereum community and they produced basically an Aries agent but didn't call it an Aries agent. And they built it there because they felt like it wouldn't fit within the Aries community. And that's an evidence of the difference between the internal perception of the project and the external perception of the project as well. And that's not a firm or something like that. Veramo, there you go. Thanks. My brain was not pulling it up. So, Veramo in Veramo, in my opinion is exactly what an Aries agent should be, but in their perception it was not now there may have been other political reasons why they did what they didn't want to develop it on hyperledger. But, but that certainly is related. Steve. Yeah, I'm enjoying this discussion and I'm learning a lot. So, to get short on time for today, what kind of what I've observed is some seem moderately in favor some seem moderately not in favor, and there's probably a lot of people saying, cool, I just want to code. So, with all of this going on what, what is our next step we so we've discussed this last week and this week. What are we heading towards? Are we going to have a vote in this community? Are we going to wait for maybe OWF comes in and pitches to us the benefits of joining their organization? What is the next step that we're moving towards? So, thank you for transitioning so gracefully Steve, right at the last five minutes to what exactly we need to talk about. This thing to stick out in my brain and I'll share this and then I'm very interested in what folks think we should do next. I think that out of what our conversations I could distill a list of at least a draft draft form of our expectations to the OWF. And that not that would not be of course binding in any way but that would be a little bit of a description of sort of the scope of what we generally would anticipate. And that gives the OWF a chance to review it and understand and then and then have and then they have a chance to come back and talk to us. The in the event that they can't come next week, I think that continuing the possibility of there's two things related to area scope that I think are relevant conversations that we need to have independent of a move to OWF meaning it would be useful if we're not moving if we're moving to WF and it also be useful if we're not moving to WF. And that involves the what areas is mechanically in the various pieces there it's been expressed in last week's meeting that having the software and the and the protocol design within the same effort is not a good idea has been voiced by a few. And so we having this conversation aligned with the sort of a scope definition of what we think it ought to be, I think is a useful thing that we can do independently of any sort of a vote to like make that happen. And so I think that that would be a useful conversation for next week. And so it's a little bit preferable to the main conversation but not the main one. And then, and then that would give the the OWF an opportunity to come in and talk to us about and make a proposal for, for what, for what could happen. I think that is kind of next steps, and that that means that our next conversation would be mostly about scope and branding of Aries. And then, for example, if protocol design was something that we thought should should move anyway over to the did come users group that could be something that we actually execute independent of an OWF move. And then, but also a branding, and we could tag on to the the rebranding that hyper ledger is in doing generally speaking, and engage or talk amongst ourselves or as appropriate engage with hyper ledger to figure out how we can do a sort of a better branding clarification around, around areas itself and, and that would be I think really helpful to carry that conversation either future, you know, in our community here, or future and the other stuff as well. And so that would be good Tim mentions that it would be nice to talk about how the Linux digital foundation digital trust initiative fits in, whether there's actually a thing there or whether it's sort of a logical grouping of organizations that would also be a really helpful thing. And so that's kind of what's in my brain. I apologize for talking so long about that or is there any better ideas that folks have on what we should do as next steps. I think the reframing is an important discussion. That may be one of the pros of the open wallet is reframing. And externally, people might perceive it differently. If we move to the open law foundation as opposed to sort of like launch a clarification effort. Just because they're going to feel like it's different, even if in practice it isn't. Yeah, I think that's what you mentioned. I'll just I put it in chat here but you know again, being that you know I have this kind of role is in the marketing world at hyper ledger as marketing chair and represent the hyper ledger, you know membership and and projects. Again, happy to support anybody who would like to help with this rebranding effort if we want to meet as a community, maybe on a different call. So if you're some of these items and sort of put together a kind of a relaunch or, you know, reframing publicly. I can pull together some numbers of existing, you know, blogs and webinars and social follows and kind of where we've where we've really hit momentum in the past and you know where we want to expand in the future so happy to have any help with that if anybody's interested. I didn't talk about wallet versus agent as a term, but that's a whole thing that we need to talk about and there's been some sort of gradual shift in the community there as well. And so I think that next week might be best spent on on a thing there, I would love some assistance from hyper ledger from a branding perspective. And what I feel a little awkward about is that is that it's possible that we as a community work on this this branding, and then if we move to WWF it feels really in bad form to leverage hyper ledger resources for branding and then leave with that work. I feel a little awkward about that but I definitely feel like any any contribution that folks are willing to or any any any help that we could get would be helpful and so we can we can figure out the best way to do that. I don't want to do hyper ledger wrong in that process, but but definitely that conversation would be good. So, I know we're just a little bit over what I'm going to do is frame next week around an area scope conversation and to continue that and we can talk and argue those points more directly. I will put together sort of the summary of our notes here with links to these notes to to share with with Daniel and Tracy, you obviously have been here. And so you'll be familiar with those. And that way, that context is available for for anyone at the WWF that would like to come and present and we'll plan that for two weeks out. I think that it's important to have the conversation next week regardless of what happens with the WWF stuff because I think that we've identified a problem. We probably should have figured this out like a year ago or more, but better now than never. And so having that I think is definitely a good use of our time. I apologize for being open or over grateful for everyone's contributions and discussion here today. I feel like we've we've made some good progress. And we will see you all next week or online. If, if, if additional conversation happens in all of our channels. Thank you folks and I hope your week is a great one. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks everyone. Thank you.