 Good morning. You are with the Vermont House Government Operations Committee. We are meeting this morning for a short committee meeting before House floor to hear a proposed amendment to age 48 town meeting COVID flexibility bill. So first, I will invite representative to to to introduce the amendment that he's proposing. And we will hear from a number of different perspectives from the folks who have helped us to develop this bill so Casey welcome and go ahead and let us know what you're thinking here. Thank you Madam chair for inviting me into the committee I want to first thank Tucker for his help drafting this amendment and I also appreciate I just wanted to mention that I appreciate all the work that this committee has done to get this first bill out and enrolling I'm personally was hoping that this would be the first bill that we get out and I appreciate all the work that everyone did. This is a very important time in the state of Vermont in the nation, public safety is something that is really in the middle of a pandemic we know that and this is the reason why this bill is out the reason for my amendment and I'm sure everyone has seen it but basically my amendment is changing the may to a shell from it's going to require that let the municipal legislative bodies can vote to do enact one or more of the following alternative procedures for the municipalities of the 2021 annual meeting, they can move the annual date. They're meeting date to a later time when it is deemed more safe to me or they can mail municipal clerks can mail all active registered voters in the municipality the Australian ballot to be used at the annual municipal meeting. And then the other the rest is basically the same. I didn't touch the Brattleboro or the Northeast Kingdom Waste Management Districts wording so the reason and like I said the reason I wanted this is because it's really a thing for public safety. Four months ago was it for two months ago three months ago whenever we all stood out in the snow for election day. That was we had a universal a mail in ballot that was a pretty successful. I think that our town clerks did an excellent job across the state, having a very secure and very well attended election and I think that this year is no different actually worse off our cases have gone up in the last couple months and that's kind of where I stand. So I mean I'll take any questions or I'd love to hear other people speak to this bill. Thank you. Thank you representative. Any questions from committee members to the representative about the objective of his proposed amendment. All right, I'm not seeing any diving for their little blue hand so I think first what I'd like to do is invite Secretary of State condos to to help us understand, you know from your perspective and the perspective of your team who have been hearing the municipalities over the last couple months, preparing for this bill. What are your thoughts here. So, thank you, Madam chair and I thank representative to for offering his amendment. I first I want to just right up front say towns need resources and options right now they can't really wait that's why this bill was was intended to move as quickly as possible. Without really any amendments being attached to it. And while I can commend the focus on community health and the intent behind this for my towns really can't afford any more delays that may stall this of critically important legislation as I just stated. So what we found, which worked best for local elections. We've already done this into an early 2020 because there were, even though the COVID shutdowns really didn't happen until after town meeting day there were a lot of towns that had their meetings or schools that had their annual meetings afterwards. And the approach that we found was to enable the towns to pursue the safe voting options that best serve their communities through a permissive law rather than a prescriptive law. And I want to say that leading up to the November. We had the time because we started working on it in March of last year. So we had time to build the infrastructure to conduct the statewide mailing and many towns will not have that capacity or staffing power. Keep in mind ballots are not created until I believe it's February 10 they have to be ready. I mean, they have about 20, 20 some odd days to get them into the hands of the voters and back and to force that situation is really difficult. So again, I think the most important factor right now is timing towns are being held in limbo because as the town meeting day deadlines start to approach. We have one deadline is upon us in two days. And they need clarity on the options they can enact to ensure safe secure local elections. And they really don't have the resources right now to do what needs to be done. And it's not something we can just throw money at the resources that I'm talking about is time resources. So we would oppose this amendment. Thanks Jim. I'm wondering if it will sending if you could help the newer committee members sort of understand the variety of different traditions that different towns use in order to adopt their, their town budget. Sure, it's, it's really just the two options are doing so via the traditional floor meeting where everybody gets together on the floor and following Robert's rules of procedure. Take votes on the articles on the warning other towns vote, all of their annual meeting subject matter by an Australian ballot where it's put on a pre printed ballot that's ready 20 days before the election and is available for early voting. And then there's a polling place on election day where voters can come and cast those ballots. And then there are many towns it really is, is not uncommon to have a mixture of the two to do some of your business via for meeting and the remainder by an Australian ballot. I think the most common of those, if they do one piece of business by Australian ballot it's the budget. And then there's another another decent size sampling that also elect their officers by Australian ballot and some that only elect their officers by Australian ballot and like to do their budget at the floor meeting where there can be discussion and amendment of the budget number. I think generally the larger municipalities vote their budget and their officers by Australian ballot. And that's not an exact one to one. If anybody's curious. If you look on our website under the town meeting tab of our website. You can see a spreadsheet that does lay out which towns use which methods and also which school districts use which methods. That's by response only it's not mandated so it's not every town in the state but it's most of them. Well, any questions from committee members for either the secretary of state or director of elections Mike McCarthy. Thanks madam chair. We heard from our city clerk in St. Albans last night. Some questions about the availability of ballots. And the complexity of meeting the timeline, especially in a city like ours where we do all of our business on time meeting day by Australian ballot but we have multiple wards so there are different ballots that go out to different sections. And then the coordinating with the school district that we discussed at last week. I'm wondering what the secretary states office is hearing in terms of the vendors that would be able to process vote by mail I mean my biggest concern about this bill from what I heard from the city clerk in St. Albans last night was that, even though she very much supports vote by mail that she felt like with the timeline, she wouldn't be able to get a vendor to do the processing of those ballots, potentially, and so I'm interested in hearing more about what other municipalities are seeing in terms of that ballot processing. So, let me first state Mike representative McCarthy that that I think your your city clerk is is correct. There aren't a lot of companies that could handle this. When you start to start to think about there's 246 towns 275 polling districts. There's all the school boards school meetings. We're talking probably well over 300 different types that are out there and to try to track down and contract with someone at this late date would be very very difficult. You said that I do know, and will can speak to it because he talked directly with the town clerk from South Burlington, but they have already taken steps to do their, their mailing. So they've got a contract in place but will why don't you go ahead and speak because I know you, you were talking about how much it was going to cost. Right. When we did the mailing we use the company that provides our tabulators and Prince half our ballots LHS. So, because that was available to us I didn't do a whole lot of research around Vermont of mailing houses. And so I don't have a great idea of the landscape the number of those that are available as the secretary just pointed out the South Burlington clerk told me just yesterday that she had secured the services of one in South Burlington. I think it's called paw print. And I do know that there are other mailing services out there the the company that prints our envelopes and Barry is also able to do it to some extent. There are some other vendors that are more national in scope but that are interested in coming into Vermont and helping out with towns doing this this year. So on a personal level I should talk to curry and give her some ideas, but your concern is right and hers about how little time there is and I would just say that's one of the reasons why when I've talked to folks I've said, the the legislature is trying to allow you here may be helpful that you both postpone the meeting and do a mailing and the postponement serves to both hope the virus is better later on, and also give you time to prepare and get in touch with vendors and line everything up. Thanks will Tonya be. Thanks. I had a quick question that came up as a constituent concern related to return postage is the secret with the Secretary of State has proposed paying for postage does that include voters being able to return it paid for them. Yes. Thank you. All right. I would love for us to also hear the perspective of the League of Cities and towns and the clerks and Treasurer's Association so Gwen Zachoff. Can you share your, your thoughts on this amendment. Sure. I actually just have a question so I fully understand what I'm speaking to, with the proposal. And there's that nonwithstanding clause ahead of it. And what's what does that mean, does that still mean that the four votes and everything that's in place is still in control, like there can still an option on the table. I just want to say what we're not withstanding I guess by that. Dr. It's the same notwithstanding clause that is in the underlying bill it is setting aside any statute or charter provision to the contrary, to allow these temporary powers to be available to municipalities. So it that notwithstanding clause serves the same function as in the underlying bill. In this amendment there's really only one adjustment here. The former subdivisions one in two are collapsed down into a single subdivision that mandates that a municipality shall do at least one of those two things, move the date, or mail out ballots. That's really the adjustment that's being made everything else from the underlying bills the same. Thank you. Yeah, so I think we would be the same opinion as the Secretary State's office as leaving it as is and not supporting the amendment just because of all of the issues laid out with timing and just the wide variety of setups of how towns go, not just towns and again I can't speak to solid waste districts or schools or anything because it's not necessarily what you know my expertise but it seems like there's such a wide variety that having that flexibility of what's going to work is needed. And our towns are already setting up for things before I mean they're just basically waiting for the ink to dry on the governor signature on this bill so sort of the everything's in play already so changing this so late in the game, I think would be really problematic so VLCT does not support this amendment. Thanks Gwen. Carol Dawes. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thanks for having me on on the legislative chair of the clerk and Treasurer's Association. And actually anything I would have to say would would echo Secretary condos and and what Gwen said from the league. Town meetings are not a one size fit all kind of option. And so, having a black or white language in the law doesn't give us the the the flexibility to to make the changes that we need for our individual communities. But the complexity of multiple jurisdictions in St. Albansbury City has the same thing we have multiple wards and and so trying to coordinate a full ballot mailing in a very short time frame would be would be difficult to say the least. We talked about South Burlington. They have one ballot for the local election so it's one ballot even though it's going out to about 15,000 people it's it's only one ballot and we also talked about the cost not being minimal. And I can really yesterday was saying that she's looking at a cost of about $25,000 for mailing out their ballots so it's not inconsiderable in Berry City what we're talking about instead is doing postcard mailings to our voters to encourage them to request ballots ballots by mail in advance and I've already been receiving a bunch from notices I've put out on front porch forum and stuff, but I think the towns need to retain the flexibility to use the option that works best for them. Thank you. Thanks Carol rep the host key your hand is still up to you. Is that from before. Yeah, sorry. Okay, no, no problem I just wanted to make sure that I didn't skip over you. Any other questions from committee members of either the clerks and treasures Association or League of Cities and towns. Casey to had a hand up did you want to say something else. Yeah, I was just chiming in listening to some of the testimony. I didn't. I don't think I think the Secretary of State's office for the hard work they did in November I do want to acknowledge that I appreciated that and I want to let everybody know to that is not my intent to slow this build down and stop it from getting to the governor's desk as as quick as possible. My intent is to just is worrying about public safety and where we're at right now. So I do not intend to stop this bill from passing today or wherever whenever we can pass it as quickly as we can. I do want to touch on the the request of the absentee ballots thing that happened from the Secretary of State's office in for the primary election was something that was also I just wanted to point that was also. I thought that was a really neat and innovative idea. But this thing and Tucker I was just wanted to respond to something you said it does two things that allows them to move it and or mail everything out so they could, if times an issue, municipalities can move the date and still mail out later in my amendment so that was my intention with that. Thank you. Okay, committee. Any other questions. All right. I would go to John Gannon then for emotion. Go ahead, John. Thank you, manager. I moved to find the amendment offered by representative to not well taken. Second. Okay, so just to clarify when we take the role on this. Yes means no. Just so that we all know what were what what the motion was relative to the amendment so rep cannon is is recommending that this be not favorably considered by the committee so if you agree with that. Yes vote means no thank you to the amendment. And we will take a quick role and then have a quick committee discussion before we head to the floor so. Mr clerk you are getting, you're getting lots of opportunities to lead roll calls right here at the beginning of session so whenever you're ready. Go ahead. Okay. I will begin the roll call cannon. Yes. Ricky. Yes. The Claire. Yes. Uber. Yes. Holston. Yes. Anthony. Yes. Big host key. Yeah. The Fave. Yes. Higley. Yes. We have 11. Yes. Zero nose. And the motion carries. All right. Thank you all for joining us this morning. You're welcome to stick around if you want to hear three minutes of committee discussion about about our work for the rest of the day. Otherwise you're welcome to wander off. So we are going to do this floor report as soon as we get to it in the house calendar. Then what I understand is we are going to break for caucuses. I'm not sure whether whether that means that representative Toof will introduce his amendment on the floor before we break for caucuses that probably makes the most sense. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not at the point of giving folks all of the information before they break to chat about it. So I am wondering. We should probably divide up who's going where in the different caucuses to make sure that. Tanya, if you would like to have somebody else join you since this is your what third day in committee to help explain the background of the bill. Just reach out to me and we'll figure out who from the committee can join you to help answer any questions that your colleagues might have. And Rob likewise if there's any support that you want in terms of having folks help answer questions in your caucus please let me know. Thank you madam chair I think we're pretty good shape. Okay, but I will reach out if we need you. Great. So I believe that that is it we are after we caucus. I understand from the speakers outline of the day that we're going to break for lunch and come back to the floor at one o'clock to finish our work and vote on the bill so it looks like we will be late getting to the floor this afternoon. But we will get to committee about 15 minutes after the floor this afternoon so that's what I know about the day and now that I've said that out loud, something's going to throw a curveball and change that all up, but we'll wait and see what that curveball is. Any other questions from committee members before we break and stretch our legs for a moment before the floor. I'm not seeing any questions so you know how to find me if you do have any questions and thank you to the folks who joined us this morning to help us work through this amendment. See you all on the floor. I have a quick question. We will be we have a different zoom lick for the meeting for this afternoon. This one is just for this meeting this morning correct. I believe so but let's ask Andrea if she can clarify. I'll send you one for this afternoon. Okay, okay so we can delete this one very good thank you. Great, we'll see you all on the floor.