 Hello. Welcome to the Judge Ben Show. My name is Ben Joseph. I'm a retired Vermont Superior Court Judge. This is a program in which I interview people about issues that concern us in Vermont. I've done several shows recently about domestic violence and sexual assault, and those things are available to you if you're watching. I want you to understand that the 800 numbers that you see in the screen will work from every county in Vermont. So while Rose works in Rotten County, and we'll talk to you about what she does there, if you live in a different county, not in Rotland, and you see this program, if you dial that 800 number, you'll be connected to the program in your county where you live. You won't be talking to someone in Burlington or someone in St. Albans. It'll be a local connection, and hopefully that person can help you when you talk to them. So today it's Rose Kennedy's turn. Rose, you're the state's attorney for Rotland County. Hi, Judge. Yes, I'm the state's attorney in Rutland. First of all, thank you very much for inviting me to appear here. It's good to see you. Thank you. I've been the state's attorney in Rutland since 2015, February 1st, going on six years. Wow. Yeah. Time flies. Well, how many people do you have working with you in your office? I have six deputies, deputies, state's attorneys, and I have two victim advocates and three admin. So we're a pretty busy office. We handle somewhere around 1500 to 2000 cases a year. And a lot of those are pretty serious cases. Obviously, we handle all cases from misdemeanors to homicides. But yes, we're a pretty busy, pretty office, and I have very dedicated staff. And approximately, how many domestic violence and sexual assault cases do you handle in a year, do you know? So our numbers were down a little bit in 2020, I think because of COVID and the reporting, sort of the difficulties in reporting. But in 2020, we had approximately 150 domestic violence cases, both misdemeanor and felony, about 25 violations of protective orders, and about 30 sexual assaults. So I think our numbers in 2019 were slightly higher. So I'm not sure if we'll see a peak when sort of the restrictions in COVID are lifted and people are out and about more. But that is probably my guess. I've heard this in several different counties that the numbers went down, particularly at the beginning, when the lockdowns first happened. Well, I think it makes sense. I mean, you're dealing with folks who are navigating, maybe losing a job or trying to figure out how they deal with childcare, you know, and so it's not the time to sort of be bold for some people. And so I think people are a lot of people are just in survival mode mode right now. And so I think when when COVID starts to lift and there's more movement and more security, I think maybe we'll we'll hear about things that have happened over the course of the last year. Do you have a kind of a backlog of these cases? So yeah, we do. Our courts, I think, are being you know, very, very good at sort of trying to handle as much as we can remotely like we are today. But there are some things that just can't happen that way. Trials being one of those things. And motion hearings where, you know, there's going to be live testimony, and the parties can't agree on whether or not a remote testimony situation is okay. So because there's been, you can't really schedule those right now. There's a there's a bit of a backlog. Well, that's, you know, this has got serious consequences. I mean, I imagine there are some defendants who are held in jail waiting trial, and they get held longer and longer because they can't get into the courtroom. Right, right. It's, you know, obviously, it's not ideal for anyone. There's victims that want cases resolved. They want to be able to sort of get through the process and move on with their life. And like you said, there's defendants who are being held and want their day in trial or what they're doing court to be able to tell their their side of the story or make the state prove its case against them. I think we're all doing the best we can, trying to resolve cases where we can. And, you know, I think once once we are told we can have jury trials, there's going to be a lot of cases that, you know, are in line to be heard. Well, do you do you work with various organizations in the county? Yeah, we have a great domestic violence center in our county called News Story Center. And my office works pretty closely with them and Disability Rights Vermont. We have a, we actually co-authored a grant together. So we sort of have formal ties with each other. If a victim comes in and sometimes we might not know, but we might have a suspicion that there's a disability at play, we'll reach out to Disability Rights Vermont. We often encourage the victims to reach out to News Story Center to figure out what sort of resources are available to them from their angle. We also work with Have Justice Will Travel, who helps out with restraining orders and such and Family Court. So we have a pretty good relationship with different agencies that are designed to help victims. We also have a pretty good relationship with, you know, other state agencies that just come across these types of cases and the people that are involved in them. So my office holds a routine meeting with Department of Children and Families, probation and parole, law enforcement, trying to think who else. Anybody who might be in contact with the families that we're in contact with, letting them know that charges have been brought, letting them know what we're seeing, and just sharing as much information as possible. Sometimes we can't share things, but trying to share as much information as possible so that we know how to help folks out of this situation. Well, I'm sure housing is a big issue. Housing is a huge issue, right, especially in Rattling County. I'm not sure about other places, obviously, but yeah, that's tough for folks, trying to figure out where they can go to be safe and to stay safe. And like I said, News Story Center is great with that. And we also have another agency called Brock that helps with that. So, you know, we're constantly making referrals. Do these people go to shelters or they go to hotels or what do you do? I think through News Story Center, they mostly start off in hotels or a shelter and then they sort of work with them from there. But I do think it's difficult for them. That's one of the things that we hear regularly that trying to find a safe place to land once they've decided to leave their abuser is often very difficult, especially if there's little kids. Oh, I can imagine. If the victim is working, she's got to find some arrangement to take care of the kids. Yeah, and that's really tough. I remember having a conversation with a woman who got pretty badly assaulted and really wanted the charges dropped. And I met with her and tried to figure out exactly why. And it was because she had trouble finding someone to put the kids on the bus in the morning that she had a certain shift. She couldn't she couldn't change her shift. And so, you know, having the abuser be the one that put the kids on the bus in the morning was huge. And without it, she thought she'd lose her house and lose the school district that the kids were in, which was, you know, really positive for everybody. So, you know, sometimes it's a matter of just trying to figure out what the issue is and if there's a way to provide support. And it can be challenging, but we try. Have you had cases like that in which you've been successful? Yeah, I mean, I think Vermont, I mean, Rutland in particular has a pretty good support system. And like I said, we all sort of talk. So when those issues come up, we try really hard to find solutions. But, you know, there are obviously some that we can't find solutions for. And, you know, sometimes people decide they don't want to go forward with the prosecution or, you know, it would be easier just to go back. And that's really a decision that the victim makes. Well, we try to have conversations with them. And it's, I would say, obviously, as the prosecutors in the case, we have an obligation to make sure they're safe, and we have an obligation to make sure other members of the community are safe. But, you know, when we're dealing with adults, we try to have very frank conversations and try to figure out if there's, you know, common ground that we can agree on. So I'd say it's a give and take. And we never, you know, we never abandon what our role is. But, you know, I do think that there's an understanding that adults are involved. So trying to have honest conversations about it. So the victim really can make decisions here. It's not as if the victims have no say. They definitely have a say. I mean, sometimes, and I, you know, sometimes because of the injuries, because of the danger the defendant poses, we may go forward even without their agreement. But we try to have conversations in which they tell us their opinions and we, you know, we share our thoughts and try to be on the same page going forward. Wow. How long does it typically take now for you to get one of these cases? You're not even trying cases now I gather. Is that right? No, we're not having jury trials. So everything has sort of been in a standstill as if, you know, if the defendant wants a trial, we've sort of been in a standstill since last March, April. So there are a lot of cases sort of backing up. Well, that just really gives the defendants some real power in this, I suppose. Yeah, it's hard to say. I mean, I think it can go both ways. Sometimes the more distance makes the victim more, the stronger, you know, in testifying and sort of more able to talk about what happened. But I certainly think there are pros and cons to the delay. And I think it depends on the case and the facts of the case, you know, who is benefiting from the delay. Well, I, you know, I often think that each case is unique to its facts, you know, and not all the same. You know, you put a label on it and that's what happens. Every case is different. Right. I think that's something that a lot of people don't appreciate, you know, it's one of the things about your job, you know, every case is different. Right. That's right. You've got to try to find the best solution for each case. It's a tough, tough job. What do you do with cases in which the children are present when some of these crimes occur? Is there any special approach to that? So, I mean, they're not the direct victim, but they were in the household when it happened. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, we do, as a matter of course, make a report to DCF when we learn that case. I'm sorry. Just for those viewers who are not familiar with the... Oh, sorry. Yeah. Department of Children and Families. Here you go. Yeah. So, they have a 1-800 number and, you know, we will call them in the morning when we learn that kids were in the house, even if the kids weren't witnesses or present during the actual assault, just so that there is a record that kids were aware or at home, we assume that they hear and that they're aware. You can bet on that. Great. So, in our DCF office, like, you know, we have an understanding that they probably won't accept it for investigation unless the child was actually involved in the assault. But they know it and that's, you know, I think that has proven to be very helpful when some of our families sort of reappear to have that sort of history that the kids were present at other times as well. So, we do that. And like I said, we meet regularly with a representative from DCF who specializes in domestic violence issues. So, you know, when we charge a case, sometimes we're not aware if kids were in the house or if, you know, sometimes it might not necessarily come out because the assault might be late reported or whatever. And so, just letting them know who we've charged and if it's familiar to them, then they can be aware that there is a domestic violence issue going on with some of the kids that they're working with. So, those are the two main things we do. We also do try if the children are old enough to talk to them and find out what they heard and what they know. And, you know, depending, that hasn't happened very often, but when it does, it's, you know, probably people would be surprised to know that they hear and know a lot more than parents think. So, it's been helpful to sort of understand the context of the assault and the relationship of the abuse. Do you ever get complaints, you ever get information from school personnel? Yeah, I mean, usually that goes first through their mandated reporting through DCF. And, you know, that's because they work in the school, if they see some kid come in with a black eye, they have to report it. Right. If they suspect child abuse. So, that's usually how it goes. So, we, you know, law enforcement in DCF will talk to the schools, but we do, you know, we have a good relationship with the schools, and I think that they do a good job reporting what they suspect and, you know, DCF and the law enforcement folks do a good job sort of following up on those. Well, I think several agencies, yours especially, really onto this, trying to do their best for these people. Are there any resources you wish to, additional resources you'd like to have? So, I'm fortunate because I have a DV prosecutor, I have the ability through a grant, through a stop grant, was able to have a DV prosecutor who that's all she really does is domestic violence and intimate partner crimes. In addition to that, through the grant, I have a part-time DV investigator, which has been crucial, I think. Is there a person you've got 20 hours a week who does nothing but investigate these cases? Yeah. So, I think, you know, normally when a domestic violence or domestic assault case comes into law enforcement, you know, law enforcement is responding, oftentimes in middle and night, their number one priority is to separate the folks, make sure people are safe. There's not a whole lot of time or people might be in the middle of the trauma and can't really talk about, you know, the history involved in the relationship. So, we use the domestic violence investigator to sort of do a follow-up interview in the days that fall, you know, days after to try to get more understanding about, you know, the overall relationship and the context of the assault. And that's been really helpful for us to, you know, understand what's been going on. Oftentimes, a victim of domestic violence will not call the police immediately. You know, it takes many, many assaults before they call the police. So, by the time we get involved, we kind of know, we want to know what's been going on before they picked up the phone. And so, you know, having that DV investigator at our disposal to do that follow-up is huge because, you know, like I said, a lot of these happen at night and we're in the office during the day. So, to connect with the officer that actually handled the arrest can be problematic and a lot of, you know, phone calls back and forth, but having a DV investigator to just say, can you pick up where that officer left off and, you know, follow through has been great. And we've used it to file what's called prior bad act notices so that the court can have a better understanding of, you know, the actual context of the assault, you know, that it wasn't just one slap or one push that it's been going on for quite some time. Well, I think that's typical. Am I right about that? Is it typical that it's been a long course of conduct? Yeah, so when I first took office, one of the things that really struck me was a lot of our first-time calls were strangulations. And that just seemed kind of hard to understand. And what I've learned is that, you know, when someone gets grabbed by the choke, it's scary enough that that's when they call the police, but there probably were other things that happened before that. So, you know, in that context, having the DV investigator sort of get that story is really important to us. They can get a history, as it were. Yeah, exactly. And so we campaign a fuller picture when we're in front of the judge or the jury about, you know, what really has been going on. This wasn't a fight over, you know, the TV or the dinner. You know, it's a relationship that has a lot of violence in it, potentially. And of course, if there's been witnesses to these incidents, that's so important if you can get that absolutely sorted out. Right. And there often aren't witnesses. You know, oftentimes this happens in someone's home, but what there are witnesses to maybe are mood changes or personality changes or, you know, random bruises that don't have great explanations. And so we've tried to find those people too and been successful in cases to sort of bring those people out and, you know, match them up to what the victim says was actually happening and had success. So, yeah. Well, I think the mandate is you mentioned mandated reporters. There are people who will have to report if they think there's been a child when it assaulted. I mean, a lot of cases that come from a teacher who walks into class and sees a kid with a black eye, that kind of thing. Right. It's important. Yeah. And it's not the same for adults, obviously. So there's a lot of people out there who might suspect, you know, a friend or a loved one is being assaulted and don't feel that they have the they're in the right place to make that report. From my experience, from where I sit, you know, I'd say go ahead and, you know, let law enforcement know and see if the person's willing to talk about what's really going on. You know, I've certainly had those cases where mom suspected daughter was being abused, but didn't feel like she could say anything. And then once the daughter came out and said that she's been in an abusive relationship, mom felt horribly because she hadn't spoken up sooner. You know, there's really no easy answer to all of that. I understand that. But, you know, I think like you have the 1-800 number down there, I think that could be helpful for people who think they have a loved one in an abusive relationship too. Well, I'm hoping this gives them some ability to help, at least to find out what's possible. Right, right. God, what a job. What a job. Well, I don't know, Rosa, so much to talk about. And no, really, it's just so hard. So hard. And I think the delays in the court system are not helping victims. I've been thinking it's been bad for the victims that there'd be so many delays. But I think there are things that can be done short of prosecution that you can help them with. You can steer them to resources. You can steer them to different options, to housing, to counseling, to things that can help the kids. Absolutely. You can't get the case of trials. There's a lot of other things that can be done. Right. Yeah. And I have, like I said, I have two victim advocates in my office who have been trying their hardest to sort of stay in touch with people during this period. And, you know, certainly would try to help any way they could for people right now. And, you know, they might not have the resources themselves, but would be able to direct them to the folks that that do. Well, Rose, thank you so much. I can't thank you, Judge. Oh, no, I really appreciate it. I think it's so important. I think there's so many of us who work in our own little bubble, you know, that people don't understand what your job is. And it's not like it's public knowledge. So the more that I think it's one of the functions of this town meeting TV stuff that, you know, people get to see who's in charge in this county and what resources are available. And I'm hoping if nothing else that we've done that today. Well, thanks for highlighting it. Thank you for all your interest. I'm going to try. I'm going to do a few more of these interviews. One with an old friend of mine who's not doing this work in Canada. Can you know that? Yeah, it's going to be fun. All right. Interesting to hear how it's done in Vancouver, you know. Right. Okay. Well, thanks again. Thanks. All right. Thank you. Take care. You too.