 Hello, welcome to another edition of the Socialist.net video blog and joined today by Holger Martin who's on the steering committee of the Solidarity with the Anti-Fascist Resistance in Ukraine campaign. Holger, can you explain some of the latest developments in Ukraine after months of fighting between the Kiev government and the rebels in the east? We've now seen a ceasefire. Can you discuss these latest developments? Yes Well, 10 days ago there was a ceasefire was signed between the Donetsk and Luhansk republics and the Kiev authorities also with the participation of Russia and this deal, the terms of which understood in different ways by different people involved meant that fragile ceasefire is now in place. The immediate push for this ceasefire was the fact that the Kiev forces were being heavily defeated they had to retreat on all fronts and there was a threat even of the rebel forces taking over the key important port of Mariupol in the in the south coast. So in reality Kiev was forced to sign this deal otherwise they would have lost even more ground but there's a whole number of different reasons for this agreement and there's also a whole number of forces people who are not happy with this deal or who see it just a temporary stop-gap. First of all we have to say that after a number of months in which the so-called anti-terrorist operation of Kiev against the Donbas seemed to be advancing and the rebels seemed to have been surrounded in Donetsk and in Luhansk and they were about to be cut off from the Russian border the situation of the actual war or the the front the battle lines changed rapidly most of the western media and the western governments and the Ukrainian government they said that this was because of strong intervention on the part of direct intervention of Russian forces they were talking about thousand Russian soldiers having crossed the border then some other people talked about ten thousand Russian troops crossing the border then there was talk of a Russian tank colon being involved but for most of this there was very little proof I mean this way the same people were saying these things We're the same people who told us about ten years ago that there were weapons from us destruction in In Iraq Which then we found out it wasn't the case and there was a lot of hype at the time of the NATO summit in Wales To try to build up this idea that there was a Russian invasion of Ukraine and that something had to be done and but in reality behind the scenes NATO was clear that they couldn't do anything about it and there was no real appetite or Possibilities on the part of NATO to actually intervene directly and help Ukraine in such a way that they could finally smash the rebels because that will have meant Direct conflict with Russia, which they don't want they're not prepared for for it at the time when NATO is involved in So many different fronts with US imperialism, which is the driving force behind NATO Obviously has all these problems in Iraq Which are of their own creation, but they don't want to be fighting in too many different from the unable really of fighting many different fronts Having said that it is it is obviously clear that there was Russian involvement in Ukraine in in in the fighting and in my opinion this has been mainly taken the form of Allowing supplies across the border allowing Volunteers across the border supplying the rebels with intelligence and so on Any talk of an actual invasion is not It's completely out of the of the question and and they haven't actually provided any real proof for this I mean we live in a world where US military satellites monitor every movement that takes place in conflict zones and they haven't been able to produce any actual evidence for such an invasion In any case, I will say that the very powerful factor in the defeat Of Kiev forces on the front was also the fact that For the local population in the whole region of the Donbas. These are occupying forces these armed forces which have been waging a war against civilian population there's more and more evidence coming out of Shelling indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas supermarkets markets hospitals schools kindergarten's have been bombed by Kiev's forces without any Respectful for human life or non-combatants and so on about a Million people have been displaced million civilians have been displaced from the region most of them what 800,000 have been forced to fled to flee to Russia two or three thousand That is the official Ukrainian Ministry of Health figure for people having killed being killed in this conflict, but it's probably much higher So this is very difficult to win a war when you are basically considered as an occupying force rightly rightly so There's another factor and that is that the combat fighting morale of the Ukrainian forces is very very low throughout this period of the anti-terrorist so-called anti-terrorist operation. We have seen constant protest by wives and relatives of mothers of soldiers because these are after all Drafted troops people were going about the everyday business working here or there and they were Suddenly drafted into a war which they don't have any any real Desire to fight in in most cases not only this but these soldiers the Ukrainian army Not properly trained so they basically sent a scannon fodder to fight in the in the front They are not properly fed not properly given body armor or weaponry or anything Hundreds literally hundreds of these troops were at one point or another surrounded by rebel troops or Cornet against the Russian border some of them defected to Russia abandoned the front There's even a case of a military unit from live-off in the in the West. They basically said look we have no And we haven't any more Weapons who can't continue fighting we have no supplies And this is basically you got on a bus and went back home across the whole Country in a situation like this really there was a danger of the complete collapse of the Ukrainian army And the only ones doing the fighting where the volunteer forces The battalions which are composed of Nazis neo-fash neo-Nazis fascist paramilitary thugs being legalized and incorporated into state apparatus and Yes, they might have Fighting spirit idea. This is a battle. They want to fight against the foreign enemy or whatever. They want to see it But they are also not very good at doing the fighting and they were heavily defeated in in several Battles with with rebels so the situation was not looking very good for Kiev regardless of any Russian Direct involvement of Russian troops And they were being defeated so this is the reason why they finally reached this Deal, but there are as I said before a number of forces that are against this deal on the one hand The fascist elements on the Ukrainian side of this fight on the on the Kiev side of this fight They are not happy with this and even today they were protesting outside Parliament they tried to storm Parliament. There was a joint demonstration of Svoboda the far-right party, which is part of the woman The right sector and all the elements and they said they wanted to overthrow this woman They're not happy with the signing of the deal with the European Union They're not happy with the signing of a truce with the rebels and So-called amnesty for some of the rebel fighters. They're not happy with this because they actually Take to heart all this far-right nationalist propaganda patriotic propaganda and they want to put an end to this To this people they don't they don't consider them as Ukraine They consider them as foreign Asians mercenaries and so on so is In reality Kiev has unlist forces which are a bit dangerous even for themselves, you know, they are completely out of their control Also on the rebel side there have been Indications of a number of units and even military commanders who are not happy with this deal who's saying look I mean we fighting against fascism Fascism is not being defeated and our aim is not just to liberate the Donbas But basically to get rid of fascism all together in the whole of Ukraine and we're now advancing Why should we reach a deal? But obviously it is clear that and there's also elements of this anti-oligarchic mood which exists in Donbas, and they're not happy. They're saying well, I mean the oligarchs are still in government We should get rid of all of them and the people should have power. There's been many instances of different commanders of Rebel fighters making these sorts of comments, but obviously the Kremlin is not in favor of any Anti-oligarchic revolution in Ukraine or even if it's just in the Donbas because this will be very very dangerous Also for the forces that are in power right now in Russia putting is a Representative for the Russian oligarchy. They are not interested in an anti-oligarchic revolution in the in the Donbas They're supporting the rebels up to a certain Point they're using them as a bargaining chip to have a say in the future of Ukraine as a whole and to resist NATO Aggression, but they're not interested in going the full way. So this is more or less the situation that's been created As a result of this is fired today the Ukrainian parliament passed a law giving the Donbas special status in Within Ukraine, but it's not very clear what that exactly means There's also a limited amnesty for the rebel fighters, but also the terms of this and not very Thanks, you've discussed a bit there about the fascist elements involved on the Kiev side in terms of the army and the government as well Can you explain some of the evidence behind? The existence of these fascist elements. Yes, I mean this has been clear right from the beginning and in the In the solidarity with the anti fascist resistance in Ukraine website We have been publishing material about this right right from the very beginning of the of the campaign. It was clear Kiev the Kiev authorities that came to power after the overthrow of Yanukovych. They They didn't hide the fact they called for volunteers to join the newly created National Guard Battalions and the Ministry of the Interior Battalions And these volunteers mainly came from the paramilitary fascist organizations the right sector Zvovoda Patriots of Ukraine the Social Nationalist Assembly and all the far-right and Nazi Organizations if I go to the first volunteer battalions that was created under the authority of the Ministry of Internal Affairs I estate body was the as of battalion and the as of battalion was created and It's made up mainly of members of the Social National Assembly its paramilitary Organization Patriots of Ukraine these people are Nazis. They are openly Nazis and they don't hide the fact themselves And the commanders of this Unit are Nazis and living members of these fascist organizations But all of this was not very convenient for the Western media to show because this is a woman that's been supported by the Western powers by imperialist powers in In the US in Britain in Europe and so on so there was not there were not many reports in the Mainstream media about these things, but now in the last few weeks more and more Evidence has come out about this even in the mainstream media, but one of the latest ones is a video that was shown in German TV news in the German TV channel ZDF and It showed members of the as of battalion which are playing key role in the defense of Mariupol and they had Drone in the helmets Nazi symbols including as Vastika the SS symbol and This created a bit of a stare in Germany and in other countries obviously because this was clear a clear indication that Soldiers who were fighting under the authority of the Kiev government in this case the as of battalion of the Ministry of Interior of internal affairs Openly Nazis and when asked about this one of them said no, I'm not a Nazi I'm a national my ideology is national nationalism Obviously doesn't really make any difference or the others say no they're not national is they are They are patriots Yes, well the Nazis were patriots of one particular Kind and other people say no they they symbol Which is a Nazi symbol is not really a Nazi symbol It represents the end and the eye idea of the idea of the nation But if you then go and look at what the their idea of the nation is the view of the nation is a white supremacist racist Nazi Ideology and they do not hide the fact I mean the main commander of the assault battalion Andrej Bilecki He is a Nazi has been a Nazi for a long time. He spent time in in jail and you read his writings Even writings is produced now in August and he openly says what his idea of the nation is and Not only this but now the most Perhaps shocking thing But it's not it's not a new phenomena. It's just a development of what's been happening in the last few months, but Yatsenyuk, who's the prime minister and Turchinoff who's the president the speaker of the parliament have created a new party because there's elections coming up on 26th of October this new parties called the popular front and he was launched in Kiev few days ago, I think it was on the 12th of September and this party has created a military council because people in the army are not allowed to be members of the party So they created this kind of military council to allow people who are involved in the in the fighting to be part of the party and This military council is composed of the following people Arsen Avakov who's the minister of interior Andrej Parubi who's the former secretary of the National Defense and Security Council Who is a former founder of the Social Nationalist Party of of Ukraine Nazi organization? And then all the commanders of the different volunteer battalions who are all of them Nazis of one way of one description or another including Andrej Biletski, who's the commander of the main commander of the of the as of battalion. So this guy is now Heavily rumored that he's gonna be in the election lists for the popular front Which is the party of the current prime minister and current president of the of the parliament So this is a fusion between the Nazi elements and the reactionary bourgeois Elements who are now in in power. So I mean the Kiev authorities You can say it might have certain legitimacy there was a presidential election after after all, but I mean in reality this is is a very unhealthy mix of right-wing reactionaries neo-liberal bourgeois politicians extreme Nationalists and and some who are openly fascist and neo-nazi elements, I think that The idea behind this is since these people have been doing quite a lot of fighting and they have certain prestige out of that They will use them in their electoral list in order to get a better better election results And these are the people being supported by the by the West so And today as a reward for all this The European Union and the Ukrainian parliament have ratified and signed the European Union Ukraine Association treaty was the original reason why this whole movement against Yanukovych Started so it is quite a dangerous position. It is not just a situation where Nazi groups or Nazi gangs roaming the free the streets of Ukraine, but they also been incorporated into a state apparatus giving heavy heavy weaponry and incorporated into a whole political Consensus of bourgeois right-wing bourgeois politics at the same time Anyone who is in opposition is been persecuted On Friday night three Activists still I've been activists were arrested in Odessa One is a member of Borodba another members of the Communist Party and another member of the Communist youth and one of them This member of Borodba. He is one of the survivors of the Odessa massacre where he was beaten up by the right-wing thugs and They three of them have been arrested under the allegation that they are a cell of the so-called Ukrainian Red Army, and they are preparing a terrorist terrorist actions Now this Ukrainian Red Army has not carried out any actions and it's quite likely just a fabrication but in any case this Member of Borodba has been beaten up and tortured in in detention and his relatives are very worried about his safety and They they saying that explosive were planted in his flat when When the raid took place by the security agents and also that fascist elements were also part of this rate on his flat Not only this but this person Who's been arrested member of Borodba is also the editor of the May 2 Website which is a campaign that is trying to bring justice to the victims of the Odessa massacre and to guarantee that There's a full investigation of what happened at that time in it is in this context of Attacks on democratic rights the other day they raided The offices the editorial offices of this Newspaper Vesti, which has been in opposition to the war and they raided they took Journalist personal notes hard drives they seized the web server Under the accusation that they had published some articles which will constitute Incitation to the breakup of the territorial integrity of Ukraine So anyone who's really against the government or against the anti-terrorist operation is immediately branded the terrorist Foreign agent and action is taken against them. There's also as we know legal action being taken to ban the Communist Party who's The parliamentary faction of the Communist Party has already been disbanded and so on so this is the context in which these elections are taking place on the 26th of October Thank you You discussed a bit there about the solidarity with the anti-fascist resistance In Ukraine campaign Can you explain a bit more about some of the actions and Activities of the campaigns to doing here in Britain and internationally to support The anti-fascist resistance in Ukraine. Yeah, the campaign was set up in June and since then we've organized a number of pickets of the Ukrainian embassy and number of solidarity activities and Recently last week the British TUC the trade trade Union Congress, which organizes over six million workers in different in different unions past an emergency resolution moved by the RMT the transport Union which condemns NATO's NATO policy in Ukraine Which incidentally right now there are there are NATO military exercises taking place in Ukraine Which is hardly a contribution to reaching a peaceful deal to the to the conflict in Ukraine But this resolution, which is very important. I think it's very significant Condemns NATO policy in Ukraine opposes any involvement of British forces in the conflict and Also offers solidarity of the TUC for those fighting for trade union rights and against fascism in Ukraine this is very significant I think this is it's obviously the first time that a major trade union body in the west offers its Solidarity with those fighting fascism in in Ukraine and opposes the policy of imperialism of intervening in In Ukraine, I think this is very significant and we need to use this To maximum effect to build a campaign and to take the campaign down to the ranks of the British trade union movement Thank you. And finally, can you just discuss briefly what you think the perspectives are now for the Ukraine? It's very difficult to say because even the ceasefire is very fragile. They're still fighting going on Just a few days ago Ukrainian Army shelling killed about 25 people in Donetsk, even though there is a allegedly a ceasefire but in any case what I think is that this Ukrainian Gorman is not only carrying out this anti-terrorist operation, but it's also a woman that is committed to harsh austerity measures Which been signed in a deal in the best so-called bailout deal with the IMF The the Ukrainian economy is now in a much worse state than it was when this deal was signed is forecasted to Collapse by 7% perhaps this year GDP and this will mean that whatever government comes in Into power after the 20 October 26 elections will be committed to these policies massive austerity policies cuts in Massive layoffs of civil servants cuts in pensions and wages increases in the prices of the utilities heating gas fuel electricity and so on and this Can cause social explosion at one point or another do this Nationalist hysteria the fork of patriotism will dissipate and the real issues of bread and housing and heating will come to the fore and Hopefully the Ukrainian people will wake up to the to realize who the real enemies are the oligarchs who Where in power and the Yanukovych are in power now and they're using cynically this war using ordinary working people as canon father as well on both sides of this conflict to advance the interests and Continue the enrichment at the cost of the interest of ordinary working people in in Ukraine We can only hope that sooner than later There will be a genuine anti-oligarchic movement that will do away with this Handful of wealthy oligarchs and manipulating ordinary people in their interests. Thank you for joining us today. We'll be a good look at the campaign Thank you