 Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of Women in Tech's Global Event, celebrating International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We are with Sally E. Senior Policy Advisor, Global Foundation for Cyber Studies and Research. Sally, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE for International Women's Day. Appreciate it. Pleasure, John. Great speech you again. Love your title, Global Foundation for Cyber Studies. Global is a big part of the theme this year. Cyber studies are seeing a lot of cyber activity all around the world. Networks, communities coming together, the role of data. I mean, everything is touching our lives. There are no boundaries anymore. What does it all mean? There's so much to talk about. You're in the middle of it. Before we get into it, tell us a little bit about your career and your history and how you got interested in tech and what you're working on. Absolutely. I love that kind of the age of convergence coming together right now, isn't it? That's how I would describe it. And that's kind of a bit like my career, I think, in many ways as well. So for the audience, it's obviously great to be here and share about that today. And I'd kind of say three main pillars. One would be emerging technologies. So I started off right through from coding to advisory to CTO-type roles as well, also change management. And now I'm more of an advisor right across from AI to 5G to IoT and security, for example, as well. Also passionate about education. Now, tech and education, for me, they always go hand in hand. So I'm a professor at a number of universities and in my non-for-profit, we really do a lot of outreach around educational opportunities as well. And that third pillar, opponent hinted at it already, would be social impact. So really passionate about how we can use tech as a force for good, things around sustainability right at the heart of that, but also around diversity, equity and inclusion. So we do a lot of projects locally and globally around kind of reframing what a tech career looks like and giving people more democratized access to those tech opportunities. And outside of that, a bit like yourself in a podcast host and writer and speaker and things as well. So very much kind of building that community around key tech topics. Well, folks watching should check it out on Twitter. She's that great content. You mentioned Mobile World Congress before we came on camera. You mentioned convergence. I mean, we're at a time now. I got to ask you while I got you here before we get into the whole schools and the career tech thing. We've seen this a movie before, but never at this scale, the convergence and the confluence of education and scale of cloud computing, the ability to level up and get, I won't say democratized. That's kind of overused. But I'm just talking about like, with cloud computing, you could be educated and in market with a job instantly. The barriers just seem to be moving away because of the openings and the roles are changing. So more than ever, this whole new tech scene comes together in a way. Can you share your thoughts and vision? Because to me, we're seeing this happening at such a scale, unprecedented in my career. It is. And that's one of those words that, you know, the past had been overused, hasn't it? You know, unprecedented. But right now, it really, really is. It's not just a speed of change. I think it's a scale of change as well. Now, I think previously, we've talked about tech disciplines in silos to a certain extent, haven't we? You know, in terms of like an AI specialist or a 5G one or other disciplines as well. But really now that convergence about what one tech enables another, it really is that smart technology coming together for more and more different use cases. But that resonance around how important education is alongside that, alongside process, alongside culture and shared values as well. It really is this kind of holistic integration of everything that matters at the moment. It's evolving business models as well. You know, shared values right at center stage around that. Now, MWC, I just come back from that. And the key topics there weren't just 5G. It was the importance of ecosystem collaboration, for example, and there were less tracks that were isolated on one technology. It was more of this conflation of these different technologies coming together and what we can achieve from that, from business, but also for society. So really exciting focus areas now. You know, things that maybe once or a few years ago or more in the periphery, they're now absolutely center stage. So it's good to see that progress in that area. And I'd love to advocate around that. And the education piece is so important. And we always stay here on the cube. It's a data problem, right? Everything's a data problem. You know, when you look at schools and education, there's structured and unstructured data kind of our systems, right? So unstructured schools, you know, institutions, those kinds of career paths or education pathways. And then you have unstructured, you know, the free form communities, seeing a lot more education going on within groups, off structured environments like schools. Can you, and you do a lot with schools, can you share more how you're doing work with schools, specifically on the structured side, to get girls into careers faster in tech? And then can you also comment on the other side, what's going on in the communities? Because it's kind of going on in parallel, but they're not mutually exclusive. Now, absolutely community, absolutely key word there. I love that. And I think that when we're talking about, you know, diversity in technology, it's not just what we're doing now with what we're looking at, it's looking ahead, but also looking at future pipeline as well. So for me, and I use this expression a little bit, but change in narrative, you know, that's what springs to mind for me when we're talking about that. And particularly for girls going into technology, but also more broadly, you know, diversity of experience more broadly, we do have these drop-offs. So UK is one example, but it is really representative of the global trends that we're seeing. Now we get a drop-off of girls in particular, taking ICT subjects at GCSE level. So kind of that subject choice at 12 to 14, that kind of area, we get the same thing at A level. So that's equivalent of 16 to 18. And then even say for university or even apprenticeships, you know, whichever are both equally valid, but even if people are taking those types of skills, they're not then choosing to apply them in their careers. So we're seeing these kind of three pillars where we need to intervene earlier. So for me, the more that we can do things, you know, from dedicated educational offers, but equally partnering with tech companies to do outreach around this area, we need to go in younger and younger. It is so important to address that. Why? Why are people, you know, thinking they can't, maybe why is this career not for me, for example? So addressing that is huge. That's one of the things we do with my non-profit, that's called aspirational futures. We go into schools and to universities, but equally do things with older adults and reskilling and upskilling as well. Because again, we can't leave that behind either. There's something for all different kind of age groups and backgrounds here. But specifically, I think in terms of getting people interested in this career, you know, curiosity matters. You know, I think it's an underrated skill. So kind of changing the narrative again on what a tech career actually is, what skills are valid. You know, I mentioned I have a coding background as a starter, but not all tech careers involve coding. And particularly with the rise of low code and no code, for example, as well. So a really valid skill, but so many other skills are valid as well. You know, creativity, emotional intelligence, problem-solving skills. So for me, I like to drive forward that all those skills can make a difference as an individual, as a team. So your, you know, your tech career, all those skills are valid and you can make a huge difference. And I also think, you know, just kind of really bringing to the fore what different types of projects you can be involved in in tech as well. And I've found really resonating when you can talk about tech for good projects and show how you're making a difference about some of those big challenges, that's kind of a really kind of resonating response with people as well. So again, the more we can show tangible projects where you can make a difference and the whole range of skills that are involved in that, it really helps people to think differently and gain that skills confidence, I would say. Well, that's an awesome insight. I want to just double click on that for a second because one, the drop-off, can you just repeat the ages where you see the drop-offs where the drop-offs are happening? Absolutely. Yeah, no problem, John. So it's kind of when you're making your first choices around your first kind of qualifications. So between that 12 to 14 age group, 16 to 18, and then 18 to 21. And I think we've really got to tackle that. So again, the earlier we can go in, the better. And again, supporting people within organizations as well. So I do a lot of work like internally with organizations as well, people looking to upskill and reskill. Now you mentioned about data and the importance of data literacy earlier on in the conversation as well. Now, for example, going into organizations and really helping to support people in all roles, not just tech-facing roles, develop that skills confidence as well. So for me, it's access to skills, really bringing forward the difference you can make, that holistic range of skills that makes a difference, but also the confidence to apply them as well. Now, we talk about agility of organizations a lot. Don't worry, it's one of those kind of words in the last 12 months, but maybe we don't talk about personal agility and team agility as well. So I kind of talk about it in this little toolbox. If we can give people more and more things to draw from. If the only constant is this rate of change, if you've got more things in your armory to cope with that and be an agile to that, it takes that fear away about what happens next, because you feel you've got more skills to dip into it and to apply. So for me, it's that confidence, not just the access to the skills. Yeah, and the other thing too, I thought was insightful. I want to just reiterate and breathe through the surface again is skills, right? So you don't have to be a coder. And I see, I have two daughters, Justine's with my family. Yeah, I do Python, they kind of put their toe in the water because it's cool, maybe that's a path. And they kind of don't like maybe get into it. But it's not about coding anymore, because you said low code, no code, certainly maybe AI writes the code. We all see that happening. It's problem solving. It's, you could be in healthcare and you could be nerd native, as we say as on some of the other interviews that year. If the problem solving, the aperture of skills is much broader now. Can you share more of that? More of that because with your program and your nonprofit, I know you're in the middle of it. This is important to get that out there. Absolutely. So skills, you know, I think we need to change the focus on what skills make a difference. If you see what I mean, I think you're absolutely right. There's some misconceptions about, you know, you want to go into tech, you need to be a coder. And you're right with the up skill around low skilling, sorry, low code and no kill code opportunities. I think the niches around being a specialist coder, we're going to get more roles in that area. But in other areas, we need to look at different skills gap. So I'm advising people to look at where the gaps are now. So, you know, cybersecurity is a key example of that testing architecture. Those gaps are getting bigger. There are amazing skills opportunities there. So focus on a particular discipline, but it's all those skills that surround that that make a difference as well. So as I mentioned, you know, EQ, creativity, communication skills, because it's not just about having the skills to build the future. You need that imagination to, you know, refocus on what that could even be, you know? That was one of the people who was at MWC 22, reframe, reimagine. And I love to kind of galvanize that spirit in people that you can be part of that, you know, wherever you are now. And I actually run a little series called 365. And you mentioned something right at the start of our conversation about, you know, International Women's Day, being in such an important focus area, but also we need to think about this beyond that as well. So hence that's the title of this series that I run because it's a focus on that every single day of the year. You know, I interview people that, you know, could be in C-suite roles, but equally I've had some amazing interviews with me at 12 to 14 year olds, even younger, the youngest was seven year old, who's doing like an amazing project in their kitchen with a 3D printer, you know, working with a local school or a hospice, doing something around Ukraine, another project we're doing at the moment actually. And it's so resonating. It's trying to show people, you know, wherever you are now, wherever you want to be, there's somebody relatable that you can make, you know, you can see whatever sector you're in, whatever age, whatever background. And I think it's to give that inspiration, hey, do you know what I can do that? That can be me. So with visibility of role models, it really matters. And to really broaden out, you know, what a role model looks like, you know? Yeah, and then seeing people out there, you see yourself. I mean, this is what we've proven, right? It's proven. But I want to get into the aspirational futures thing that you have going on. And I know this is important to you, but also something else you said was, is that there's more jobs open, say cybersecurity than ever before. And you're seeing this, the trend, where all these new roles are emerging because of the tech that weren't around years ago, right? And so we've been having conversations on theCUBE saying, hey, all these roles are new, but also problems are new too. These new problems are surfacing because of this new environment we're in. So, yeah, these new roles still have to solve problems. We need people to solve those problems. This is the future. This is the conversation that people are trying to get zero in on. Misinformation, cybersecurity, you name it. Society is changing. With new, you have new problems and new opportunities. Could you share your aspirational future, how you vector into that? Yeah, absolutely. And for me, it's just again, that word convergence around people and technology and partnership. And that's what we aim to do. We do projects at a very local level, but equally we do them at national and international level as well. And one of our kind of people is, I talk in pillars a lot, but I like it as a framework. So one of those is steam learning. So putting an equal value on the arts as well as science, technology, engineering, mathematics, because I think they are. You know, as I mentioned beforehand, that imagination, creativity, curiosity, collaboration skills, they're equally valid as a different type of tech skills as well. We need an equal value in all of them. I think that's hugely important today. I think over the last five to 10 years, maybe there's been less of a focus within curriculum on the arts area than the other areas. So for me, putting that equal focus back is hugely important to navigate change. You know, I think that's absolutely key. So refocus on that area and we do a whole range of tech for good projects. And that's the way we help people to learn. You know, for example, data, 90% at the moment of data isn't touched again when it's archived after three months. How can we turn that into a learning opportunity? So for example, some of the projects we use, you know, some of this is not going to be used again. We do it in a very safe, secure way, but we use that as one of our training aids. And then we apply them for local projects. We have, you know, initiatives from hackathons and ideation right through to very tangible hubs that we've actually built out where people can go, you know, learn up skill and kind of learn through playing experimentation as well. Because again, I think that's sometimes, you know, underexplored that type of value and that freedom to be able to do that. And we also do things, you know, the change management skills. We talk about agile learning, agile technology, need agile change management as well. So it's a very holistic skills, look at what you need to navigate that future and to have the confidence to apply them. So STEAM is very much our focus, applying them for tech for good projects and doing that externally, but also within organizations as well. So it's that very much a shared value approach to good business, but good for society as well. So yeah, it's that this toolbox that analogy I applied earlier, we really try and give people that support to be able to do that and to move forward with confidence and optimism. Yeah, I think adding the A to STEM really for STEAM is really smart because in entrepreneurship or any problem solving, creativity is the spark of innovation. And that is a super important skill. And we've seen it, whether it's startup or in a big company or in society. So it's super, super insightful. So I got to ask you as a policy senior policy advisor on cyber studies globally, what are the core issues you're looking at right now? What are you shutting the light on and what's the most important thing you're working on? And then what's the most important thing you're working on that people aren't talking about that people should pay attention to? Absolutely. So one of my key roles at the foundation is kind of chair of global trust, essentially. And again, trust is one of the key issues of our time. That one thing that people aren't talking about so much that relates with that actually is there's research from a group called Elon. They've been looking at this for about 17 years or so. The research that came out most recently, and I've got some original research that kind of supports this as well, is that for the first time ever, consumers are looking at organizations, like tech organizations and other large organizations in particular, so enterprise level really, as the bastions of trust to a bigger extent than NGOs or even governments. And that's the first time we've seen it at that level. So trust really, really matters. It's one of the biggest differentiators of our time. So we're trying to help people, how do you establish trust? How do you build transparency, commitment and accountability, particularly in areas where there's currently confusion? So as one example, going back to security, zero trust, that phrase is used an awful lot, isn't it? But it's sometimes causing some confusion. Actually, it negates what it's trying to deliver if you see what I mean. So I just did something recently with SMBs in particular, and there was a confusion that effectively, you could buy it off the shelf, and it's once and done, and then we're sorted for zero trust security. And obviously it's not like that. It's an ongoing journey. And there's so many different constituent parts. So there's some things I'm seeing at the moment in the market where there's confusion around certain language, for example. So again, it goes back to backing things up with the technology, but also research and awareness. So we can see where those skills gaps are, we can see where those awareness gaps are, we can help to fill them. So that's an important part of that particular role, bringing the technology and the culture and the education hanging hand together. So that's something I'm really passionate about. And for me, sort of related to this, I do a lot of work around ESG. So the Sustainable Development Goals, in particular environmental and social governance, is something that's becoming much more of a bigger kind of centre-stage conversation at an action point in the moment, which is fantastic. Because this is something I've been involved in as long as I can remember. So I work directly with organisations like UN, UNESCO, lots of different professional bodies. It's kind of a huge driver for me. So one thing to kind of look out for that's coming very soon, I'm seeing an issue around measurement in this area. We're seeing consumers becoming more and more conscious and employees. You want to work for, buy from, advocate organisations that have that same value alignment that you have personally and professionally. hugely important. We're seeing some great reports coming out around better ESG measurement, but it can be hard to compare between different organisations. So we are getting more transparency, but it's difficult sometimes to make fair comparisons. So what I'm trying to do a lot of work on at the moment is how you go beyond that transparency to commitment to accountability and that deeper level and that comparability. So I would say kind of to do on this moment, look out for a bit of a new index that's going to help people, I think make those conscious choices and make informed choices. So it's something I'm super, super passionate about. I want to try and take that to next level in terms of its actualisation. That's awesome. And certainly we'll link to it on our site. All the work you're doing on interviews we'll put links there as well. We'll make sure we'll follow up on that. Great to have you on. You're such an inspiration. Amazing work, cutting edge work. I'm super impressed with the cyber studies and I think this is really important. I have to ask you a final question because you're in the middle of it again. With COVID and the unfortunate situations we've been living with COVID and now obviously with this Ukraine situation that the cyber has been pulled to the front of the agenda and you're seeing a cultural shift. You certainly got Web 3. Cyber is now part of everyone's life and they can see it. They've been seeing it, living it. Everything's been pulled forward. There's a cultural shift happening. And it's really interesting right now. And I want to get your thoughts because people are now aware what cyber war means. Cyber security, cyber at home. I have remote work. Cyber has become front and center or digital however you want to call it in our lives. Pulled forward. Absolutely. In some cases, maybe rightfully so in others. What's your view on this whole cultural cyber being pulled forward? It is. It's really, really interesting. And so one of the things I do is I'm now editor of Cyber Insights Magazine as well. We're developing a lot of content pieces around this and lots of things I'm seeing here. So your COVID point, I think one of the most interesting things there is around literacy for example. You remember when we went back say 18 months ago we're having daily briefings. Whether that's from UK Parliament or the US equivalent and different phrases were coming into everyday language like driven by the curve or driven by the data and they're coming into everyday's life and people see it as family kitchen table. It was something that hadn't been spoken about before but suddenly it was driving everyday decision making and what you couldn't couldn't do. And that's raised awareness. And I think it's helped people to ask better questions and to challenge things that they're seeing and where has that data come from? How has it been presented? So we've seen that there. I think similarly where we're having that same understanding and raise of questioning around what we're hearing around cyber as well. You're looking at where that sources come from and how can we look at that in a different way? So again, I think it's raising that awareness which is really, really crucial. I think the other thing as well around cyber security in particular and again, I don't think this is talked about as much when we talk about aspects around inclusion. We talk about diversity, equity, obviously inclusion. I talk about belonging a lot as well. I think there's other aspects around sustainability that interrelate as well. Because when we find for example, communities that are not included they tend to be more adversely affected by for example, climate factors as well. There's an interrelation there. Equally we find that people that haven't got for example, the same level of cyber security protection are also in that same, there's an interrelation across all those elements and we're not talking about that either. So that's the other thing I want to kind of bring attention to there. Again, they aren't separate conversations. There's a huge crossover between these different conversations and actions that we can do to make a difference. So there's some positive aspects about things that have happened over the last period of time and also some challenges that if we're aware of them we can work together and gain that collaboration piece to be able to overcome them. I've got a book coming out all for charity called Tech for Good and one of my kind of tag lines there is around contagion of positive change. Okay, let's free frame the language around what's been happening and let's kind of put that together as something that's far more positive. Language is super important. Great comment here. Thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate all the great insight and taking the time out of your busy data to join us here in theCUBE, Women in Tech Global Event. Thank you so much. My absolute pleasure. Thank you and thank you all for watching. Okay, this is theCUBE's presentation of Women in Tech's Global Event celebrating International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.