 I'll call the meeting to order. At least you're gonna want to have a seat on it. This is a comment about anything that's not on the agenda. Approval of the agenda. I move to approve the agenda. A second. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. I'll let you sort out Trevor who the second was from. Approval of prior meeting minutes. We'll do it. I didn't see those. I was thinking too. So we don't have any this time. We can skip it. We'll move on. Invited guests. VTC. All right. You want to start? E-mail forgot. So what we had others that came in do is explain to us kind of what you have going on. What you need for law enforcement services. Some of them were what you need versus what you'd like. Right. And some of the conversation went into things that would help but weren't maybe necessarily law enforcement services. All right. So. Well, I mean our numbers are down right now. We have two of our dormitories that are empty. So we're low enrolled. We're open for more next year. Of course with the merger with all the other Vermont state schools, they kind of knew that was going to happen. Two of the residence halls are empty. I don't know. I mean, my biggest fear and our biggest fear up there is active shooter. Should there be an active shooter situation, we need help. We're not certified law enforcement officers. However, I did work Randolph for 30 some odd years as most of you probably know. So, I have the background. I'm just currently not certified. But my certification go in Randolph PD closed down I don't know, three or four years ago or whatever. Emil, do you ever have occasion to call for either the state police or Randolph PD to back you up up there? Yeah, we call. You had that thing last year? Probably yeah, three or four times a year at the most probably. Okay, for what kinds of things? Well, a couple of times it's been for some of our neighbors that have come on to campus with weapons, so to speak. And one of the neighbors had disagreement with his mother last year and he came on to campus with a sword and a gun. So, didn't affect us any. I mean, he wasn't looking. He just wanted to get out of the house. So anyways, state police and Sheriff Spahnman and Randolph, I think, no, Randolph wasn't in the place yet. Sheriff Spahnman and the state police were up there and they did find the individual. But you think it's about three to four times a year that you might need police or assistance? Yeah, some of the time last night we called and we had a student that got scammed on internet scam, so we called the state police last night. They were looking into that at this point. So it's some of the minor stuff like that. We've had a couple of break-ins this year, like the rest of the center. Actually, just one time, same time as they hit up the nursing home and whatnot, there's a couple of cars broken in, too. Other than that, I mean, we're on 24-7. Somebody's always, I say somebody's always there. Somebody's always on duty. Occasionally, we have to run downtown to bring a student to Gifford or something like that. So nobody's on campus at that point. We have somebody on duty. So technically, we are covered 24-7. And do you ever, but you guys don't back up Randolph, for example, you're not certified, yeah. Are you up full staff? No, I'm down one person still, anybody wants a job? There you go. Do you have many issues, concerns, problems that involve mental health? That we're seeing more and more of. We do have a student support service up there, which we do have, you know, a couple of, I don't know that fully licensed, but mental health counselors, and we do have a couple of counselors on payroll where we'll call them if we need to. We also have a working relationship with CVH for their mental health. We have sent students up there a couple of times. That's one thing I think all colleges are seeing more and more now. The mental health is increasing in the student population. More and more mental health. Just in the news today, about, I think down at Dartmouth, actually. Yeah. I think 24 hours. Do you have a mental health counselor on there, 24 hours? No, really only ones on after like five, six o'clock at night. If you had an issue, though, would they come in? Yeah. Yeah. Would they contract with the town to cover the three or four times a month we might need somebody? I don't know. Just to explore. Yeah, we can explore, I think, exactly. So between your counselors and help you might get at Central Vermont, everybody's pretty responsive as far as mental health, health, health. Absolutely. Do you have any relationship with Clara Martenson? Not so much anymore. We used to. When did that change? We do, I mean, now and then we do end up calling them and have somebody come down and visit them. I don't know, we had some issues three or four years ago with some of our staff didn't see eye to eye with some of their staff, maybe. Okay. I don't want to get into too much. Yeah, I know, all right. That's helpful to know. Yeah. We do take safety very serious. We take mental health very serious. We try to stay on top of everything. We don't have a lot of problems up there. We try to keep a handle on things. I got a very good staff. They know what I expect of them and I know what their limits are too. So it just works out good all together. So there again, I mean, what we need the most is should we have an actor through the situation. Fight and Apartment, we work pretty close to the Fight and Apartment. They train quite often up on campus, which you guys probably don't want to know about the Fight and Apartment anyways. Just emergency services, you know. That one time you had apparently the person with the weapon and the sword. State police responded pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah, they were there and I even knew what was going on. Of course, the incident had been called in as a domestic violent situation at the house. So they were on their way now and they found out through telephone that the person had left. You were on that day, right? You were up there pretty quick too, from number eight. Scott and I go way back too, so. Are you satisfied with the state police's response? Yes and no. I mean, I'm satisfied with their response. However, they get stretched thinner and thinner all the time too. As is Randolph. Yeah, I mean, yeah. So it's like sometimes, you know, we could call them and they could have a troublemaker in two minutes and all the times might wait an hour, you know. Right. You mentioned a staff. How big is your staff? Right now, I'm, well, I have five, we're five full-time positions and two part-time positions. I'm down one full-time. Any other questions? Well, thanks for coming in and chatting with us. No problem. Thank you. If we can be of any assistance, let us know. I do just know the thing for the record, I do keep in touch with Scott. You know, if we've got things going on up there that they might need to know about in the village, I let him know and vice versa. Sometimes things from the village overrun into us and sometimes our stuff overruns into the village. Our students do come down to the village and, you know, do things in their money. Party hard. Party, yeah. Bowling alley, exactly. Bowling alley, wow, being 19-year-olds. All right, thanks, Emil. Thank you. No problem. Thank you. Jamie is here from Shaw's, right? Hi. Okay. For the same type of question. Sorry, I have work issues. I am human resources, technically. Do you have occasion to call police? Absolutely. And does state police respond or does Randolph police respond? So in a pen, technically, state police territory, many occasions I would prefer to call these guys. We have a lot of no trespassing, theft. And the response time for the state police can vary, depending on how many people are on duty for the day. The one issue that we run into, and obviously, I mean, these guys are so short-staffed, that a lot of it happens at night. And so then we have to call the state police, because these guys are not on duty. Would it be more comforting to you at Shaw's and that whole plaza? And you probably talked to other people that have stores there, too, if that was part of the district going down through. The benefit to that. What time do you close? 9 p.m. So is this stuff, when you say it happens at night, is it generally before 9, or is it stuff that happens? Before 9, people who do have no trespassing orders currently with us know that upper management is not in the store, and there are less staff in the store, less shoppers in the store, as well. So how often would you say that someone from Shaw's has to attend court sessions for people being arrested for these things? I've been at it for eight years and we've never had to go to court, but we... Trust him. Yeah. So even though these things may happen, how many times is it prosecuted when the police department shows up? Okay, can you say that again, Joe? How many times are they prosecuted? How many times are they prosecuted? If you have 20 calls a month to 15 of them, is someone going all the way in coughs? I've had two in the past. Can you average out how often your staff has to call some police? This is not a weekly basis, I would say. I'm sorry, say that again? We call on a weekly basis. On a weekly basis? Once a week? Yeah. Sometimes we don't because they're off the premises before somebody mentions that they've seen somebody. That's mostly for trespass, for the people who've been trespassed. Yes, and we do have theft, but generally, so. And people generally get trespassed because of the theft? Correct. Yeah, okay. But do you still have some staffing that deals with that also? Yeah, it's harder at night because we only have the night manager on, whereas during the day, there's at least two to three of us plus department managers, so there's more eyes during the day. But you have, didn't they, were they like loss prevention coordinators or there was some title like that they had? Sean only has one loss prevention person for the entire state who oversees all the stores. So if we do have an issue, it's more internal, like if there's theft within the staff. We have to jump through hoops with the company once we call the police department. So nine times out of 10, we don't even let the company know that we have called the police department. It's just easier for us to have them handle it. So it's hard, it's hard. Are the interactions changing at all in terms of their character? Or maybe you used to have sort of shoplifting and it was a little bit calmer. Do you find people are more unreasonable or angry or more reactive than before? Is it no real change that you've noticed there? So the company policy is the only person who can approach somebody who we assume, we have seen take something is actually a store director. So the rest of us just have to report it. How long have you been there? Eight years. And so when you have like a little fender bender in the parking lot or something that doesn't impact you or is that parking lot doesn't? The parking lot is not Charles's responsibility. That is Palmer Lowe's responsibility. So what happens with that? If somebody does, they call you Scott. Yeah. And usually we, unfortunately that's state police or whatever they call the state police and they tell them they can't handle it and we let go anyway. Yeah. I had the opportunity to sit in to some of the employee training sessions, which you know. And one of the things as I remember in terms of theft in, you know, customer stealing stuff, the attitude is be very, very careful. Correct. And don't be confrontational. No. They train us to, if we do approach a shoplifter, the way to go about it is offer them help. See if they're looking for something, like deter them, like let them know that you're present and that you see them, but you're not allowed to ask them to do their bags or anything like that. You mean so all those nice Charles employees who asked me if I need help finding something they think I've stolen something? Yeah. You can tell us if there's a shoplifting and somebody looking for something. All right. I go in sometimes by wife and someone will ask me, can I help you when I'll say I'm looking for a woman? And what do I tell you? I can't help you with that. Wrong store. I get the questions. Thank you for coming in. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you, Jamie. Did we hear anything from the barn? We did. We did invite some folks from the barn. They said they'd come. I don't know if the tech issues, maybe if they were trying to join by Zoom after the Bennett Office Encounter invites. So we will refresh that and try it again. We've got at least another bite at the apple con in a couple of weeks. So we'll stay with it. We thought we had the full set lined up, so. So my understanding with them is they've actually hired security through a contract. They have. They have. I met them. I actually was going into the barn to fetch us something and there's a security officer there, an armed security officer there. So we had an interesting conversation, a nice conversation, just, you know. You know, by having like armed robberies or things like that. No, no, you know, they have a lot of theft here. He says, well, not when I'm here particularly. He says, well, I'm sure that's probably why they hired me more, just to kind of deter it. Okay. And I'm sure they have their share of shoplifting. Where they were looking for that. And they just face it. People come in and grab something and off on the highway they go. Right, I mean, they're right there. So I'm sure that they do. But he didn't really seem overzealous on that crime was rampant, but it's a convenience store. These things, I think, are not unusual 20 years ago versus what they are now, you know. Interesting. I also, just to follow up on something. Tom Hardy was here a few weeks ago. Or a few sessions ago, maybe more than a few weeks. And he said that the Sheriff's Department doesn't deliver warrants. Well, it just happened to yesterday, run into a nice officer from the Sheriff's Department over in Sharon, actually. He was doing a radar section over there. And so I asked him about it. He said, so do you deliver warrants? He said, of course we do. He says, we work for the courts. He says, we deliver warrants all of the time. I said, you do. He says, it's in statute that we deliver warrants. So that's interesting. I thought that was the case. He says, I delivered five of them yesterday. Interesting. So it was a bit of a difference of individual exposure. But they were having staff and issues where they weren't more, some things weren't being done at first. I don't know if that's changed, but I know that was an issue at first. Well, they maybe had some staff and issues in Orange County, but maybe not in Ninja County, I don't know that, but that's their job. So I thought that it was, and just more from memory than anything else. So it just happened to him, he was radar in folks, and I was coming out of Sharon by Tracy's station there. And so I pulled in and talked to him for a while, after he had told him who he was, why I was asking him questions. He was a very nice gentleman. He knew you, Scott. Very nice young man, just, and hope he's always safe. So it was interesting a conversation about it. I asked him, I said, you know, is Sharon seeing a lot of crime increase, or that he says, no, not particularly. He says, you know, we're hired by Sharon to come in and patrol these roads, you know, and you know, for whatever hours, a month, a year, or whatever that they contract for. With that, sort of like what we did here at one point. All right, let's keep moving on the agenda. Discuss operating options, continue the budget review. I got some handouts. We are. Thank you very much. Thank you. Take care. These are the ones we just sent out. They're all for Nail yet, only Nail gets one. Okay, they make all the choices. What'd you do? You were going through it like you thought, maybe there was multiple copies of the handouts, and now they're all for you. I was trying to print what you sent out earlier, and my print, it was not working well at home. Oh, yeah, yeah. This isn't working, right? Did you not go? I tried not to print these things out of the house, but it's done already in enough debt. That's the clock I'm with you, so you probably can't even remember how I was thinking about you and Sharon all the time. Yeah, I just tried to do it at home. Team building, right? What's that to build for the town? This is revised from what we had before. I knew it at first. One ream of paper. Improved, I suppose, it's in the eye of the beholder. Hang on, we've got a workaround for this, but it doesn't, if it kicks me back out. So one of the things that's in the packet, we tried to compile everything that we sent you on Friday along with the newer versions of the budgets, and we can walk you through a little bit what's different in those. This is as well, let me just set up the workaround, right? Over the zealous of this for us last time. All that was updated here were the numbers for these different models, and we updated the staircase at the bottom. Some of these I'll walk through exactly. They generally have the same set of increases from that first version. In terms of we increased capital transfers, we went back and looked at numbers for uniforms, for training, figured out a metric for that. There is a set of site in there for whatever we want to do just so we don't lose the line. There's some money in there for community outreach work or contract stuff, social worker services. So I'll point out where that is, but we threw some dollars in there to at least make sure that we were holding it and inching it closer, but we'll have to figure out exactly what we want to do there. So slight increases in each of them stemming from those changes. One of the things that you'll see in your packets, these little green squares by the line numbers, I've tried to highlight where you'll see a change in that. Anytime we change the bottom line, these taxes, full assessment numbers will change with it. So that's why you'll see that on all three. And the existing district model, none of these models have any changes in personnel. We still have that same staffing footprint that we tried to write up in that table that's also included in here. So it's the same number of staff, same number of everything else. So you'll see these costs move with it. You'll see some changes when we get to the modified district. We had a couple of extra hours in for part-time officers in that model from an earlier version of that. And we now have that same number of part-time hours from the table. So that moved that number a little bit. So no changes in any of these through here. And then with the existing district model, there's not much that changed from the first time. This is where just stuck in $10,000 into each version and a starter talk about it, not lose the line money in terms of if we begin that embedded social work coming out of each worker conversation. So we put in contracted services because we talked a little bit last time about maybe going that route or at least exploring that initially. Obviously you go to an employee, it goes to a different number and it goes back up top. And then training and development. We put that at about $1,500 per officer. We used a metric that Scott's had been used in his sheriff days prior of about $1,200 per. So it's maybe a little higher, but you'll see that we carry that one consistently throughout those training lines. Some people will use more if they go to more advanced or specialized training and there's travel and lodging involved and others will use less if they're staying close to home and or trained through in-house resources or wherever it might be. So those are the only two changes there. And then the final change in the existing, we moved all of the transfers to police equipment reserve up, thinking ahead to replacement schedules in the outer years. This doesn't touch the fact that it's, you gotta add in a vehicle, $60,000 for profits we talked about last time. Those would still have to be paid for separately from any of these models. So they worked them into the operating budget. We could, we'd just be figuring out when you pick a model, what's the number of vehicles? How do we get that paid for? The ones we have now, we're through ARPA funds. That model talked about lease financing. We talked about some of those others in terms of how do you pick them up? But this is just to sort of set us up for the years ahead when you get into regular replacement cycles. It was a placeholder before it was globally low. At some point we're gonna have to be in the game more aggressively anyway, regardless. You pick a personal equipment though? In this one we don't have much when it comes to the uniforms and personal equipment. We could if we had higher dollar ones. Those were about 3,300 each. When we suited up for the original models, we bought a couple extra sets of stuff in the hopes slash eventuality that we'd eventually have someone to wear at all. So we've got about what, two sets already in house. So when you see that number for uniforms in future or the other versions scale out, it's reflecting what we're adding essentially two in the next iteration and two more after that using that $3,300 metric. So there's probably still some refinement on some of the equipment, some of the other costs. Make sure we've got enough of the, I don't call it more specialized. We changed the portfolio in regards to tactical rifles, any of that type of equipment. Things that go with you or things that we may need on hand. So those probably start to be factored into wherever we land. This is just the next step on the path. Yeah, that's a question. To the extent that the police department has to do work outside of the district, those numbers are included in there, they're buried in there somehow. Can I bring up the lot of that we all got from Marty Strange? If you want, I mean, it's your meeting. Let's come to it. I'm confused as to what it means, what the upshot of that lot of, what it meant. We'll get, I think, to the answer of what he raised when we get to the third version here. Yeah. Okay, fine. Yeah. And so those are the changes. This is the existing district model. So you end up about 856, as I mentioned last time, that would have been about 7%. That one would have been 7% greater than the budget we started with last time. Still closer to that. I think the one piece that we do need to talk about is how we get to a number for the mental help side of it. And Kristen, the best one to try to help us maybe get through it. It was interesting to hear VTC had somebody on staff that was available, it would be worth a conversation with them to say, hey, is this something we can contract with you the few times that we need somebody in the model? I would expect it would be a contract. I've fallen to contract and services and not be a EYK town employee. It isn't a town employee in any of the jurisdictions that currently have an embedded worker. It's an employee of that mental health agency. And it's not, and they are full-time employees because they are utilized on so many calls. And some areas have set it up where the towns are, like for example, Montpelier-Barry share one person who was employed by Washington County Mental Health. And each town put in the pot a certain amount of money and they just had to up it in order to hire somebody because they realized they couldn't find anybody for over a year, it was vacant and they needed to raise the salary. Is their salary completely covered by the department or does Washington County kick in some? No, Washington County kicks in, in that one place, they kick in 50%. That's the only setup like that in the state that I'm aware of. Everybody else, it's 100% paid for by the mental health agency, except that the state police, when they started their pilot program and they just went to somebody in every barracks, they gave the Department of Mental Health chunk of money to pay for those people. So they're state employees, but they're employees of the Department of Mental Health, actually of the agency who gets money from the Department of Mental Health. So the state police money went over to DMH and then it's funneled through them as their salary. And there is, I wanna make sure, there's not one of them in the state who was part-time. Well, actually, so Newport City started off, she was at 24 hours and I think now she's increased up to 32 hours a week because they use them all the time. And in fact, some cities are now going to two, like I think I mentioned before, St. Albans town went to, or St. Albans city went to two embedded people so they had coverage on the weekends and in fact, in this next budget, the state police are asking the general assembly to put in the governor's budget or have in the budget enough to have two in every barracks because they're seeing the need is so great and it's saving them on the policing hours of the staff of the barracks. So just about everybody is 100% funded through the mental health agency. But those funds are coming from the state. So the towns aren't incurring that. One thing St. Albans did is they raised their city, they had some tax up there. I don't remember what it was on, but that was the initiative in 2022. In August of 2022, there was a ballot measure that asked specifically if the voters would raise their, some local tax. Local options. Yes, their local options. 1% in order to fund a second mental health worker and they passed it so that that person could be hired. But most, so everybody, most of the embedded people are down south because HCRS, which is the mental health agency in Windsor and Wyndham counties, they started this whole idea probably 15 years ago and those folks, they have expanded to add a rural mental health worker. So he splits his time between Wilmington and Dover PD. And his whole point of him is to get out into the rural areas. But, and then they've changed one, they've consolidated one. The Windsor and Springfield each used to have one, now they've consolidated. So they share one person. And the way I know it works in Montpelier and Barrie is right now she spends three days in Barrie, two days in Montpelier and then flips it the next week. So that, and where was I just? So I was just down in Bennington and they just, Bennington PD, just the guy who starts I think next week. And they have a one year MOU with the state they're gonna share him with the Shaftesbury Barracks down there and then after a year, either the town or the mental health agency has to come up with the funding for him. But they've, they got the money together from the state police, gave them money to fund that position. They've been wanting that for a long time. But there was one other thing I was gonna say about that. The, oh I know, when I was down in Bennington I learned that the, one of the Barracks, they looked at the data for when they get the most calls and so they have somebody, they don't work nine to five, they work like three to midnight or three to 11 or something, they've altered their shift so that they can adapt to whatever that community needs. And so the, there's no set, you know, schedule or pattern of the work hours. Every place has shifted, I know up in St. Albans they did 11 a.m. because they, their data showed them no mental health calls really came in till noon. So their guy starts at 11 and gets off at seven. But there's also several of these folks who are, they take, they're on call, they go home at night but then they'll come in if there's some, something that happens they will come in because that's just how they are. And they get paid for that through their mental health agency. Which is what it makes sense. Which is what it makes sense. It would make sense to me that they would. If you needed it. You know, not all of them have the flexibility to do that but most of them, you know, if the police call and say, we really need you on this thing, they'll go in. And like I said, they're using, they're getting used in different ways around the state. Some of them go on every single welfare check. Some of them go on all the DCF calls to, you know, help deescalate the family. Some of them go on search warrants. All of the state police people are issued vests that's part of their contract as they have to wear a vest they don't want to but they, that's part of the deal. So they wear a vest under their clothes so they don't look like police officers necessarily. One of them has a canine dog that's not technically a police canine dog but it is like a support dog that he takes on all the calls as well. But that was his own sort of side thing that he did and he decided he wanted to incorporate it into his role. Two of them have just gone to the FBI hostage negotiation or yeah, I think it's still called that. Training for a week in Maine. That was paid for by the mental health agency that employs them. A couple others have done that in the past but these two just went very recently. And occasionally the Vermont Police Academy has let in, if they had seats, when they do the crisis negotiation training they've let in the embedded workers as long as there's a seat. They're happy to have them. So some of what we heard at our last meeting was the need for that kind of case manager function. The follow up. Yeah, so when the law enforcement side is done at person so it would make sense to me that that's more of the mental health organization employee. Yeah, yeah. And so I was just with down in Bennington with the Rutland embedded person. She's at Rutland Barracks like we talk. So she rides with the trooper. She almost never takes her own car. Most of the time she rides with the trooper and if she needs to follow up she'll go back later with her car because of the whole she's not gonna get left there. Others, like the St. Albans woman, she rarely goes in the cop car. She often takes her own car because she doesn't want that appearance when she arrives at a scene of getting out of a police car. She wants to make sure that people feel like she's not part of that. We talk a lot about how do you get introduced? If you show up with the cop, like how do you get introduced? And they're very, very thoughtful about that. Most of the time the police will say this is so-and-so, she works with me. They never will say like she's a mental health clown. So they don't come right out and say that or she might say I work in the community and I'm here to help you or how can I help you? Like they're very, very thoughtful about that because they wanna make sure that they're not, that they're building rapport as opposed to building up barriers to access. And they've had one incident, I mean, everybody talks about is in St. Albans where the embedded worker went with the police. They were serving a mental health warrant at a house and they got shot at right through the door and this guy, he had a vest on and wouldn't have helped him at all. It went right by his head. And so then they took a step back and thought about how they were doing things up there. That's the one incident that I've heard about and that I know about involving the embedded worker where there, because their safety is number one and the police, part of the thing is now they're responsible. You know, the police is now responsible for this other person who's riding with them or who may be on the scene. And so they do a lot of communication, a lot of staging, you know, let's make a plan for how we're gonna do this. And they never use them as a shield. We sort of, that's sort of a running joke about how they keep them safe. Trevor doesn't- Has there been any conversation with Claire Martin about this that you're aware of? I'm not. The idea was kind of bad around back in the orange county days, but it never took to a root. Please tell me if I'm wrong. Was it the Royalton Berks looking at Claire Martin's center to help staff that? The who, sorry? The Royalton Berks? Royalton Berks, yeah, yeah. That was a Claire Martin position. It's now open to the whole state because they haven't been able to fill it. Let's go ahead. So HCRS and everybody else, Northeast Kingdom Human Survey. I mean, anybody who can find somebody who wants to- Jump down there. Yeah. But I mean, they've talked to me about it. Claire Martin has the head of their emergency services and their CEO. And they're both, you know, they're committed to trying. I mean, they say that they think it'd be way easier to find somebody if this was a position that could happen in Randolph. And even if it could be shared with some other agency, whether that's state police or, you know, VTC or whoever, that they are confident they could find somebody. They wouldn't have the same issues as they have had with Royalton. They identify the Royalton problems with it being out next to nothing. And that Randolph is a thriving metropolis, you know, compared to the Royalton Berks. What were the problems at Royalton? They just haven't been able to find anybody. You know, it has to be the right fit. They've interviewed a few people, but it's not the right fit or the salary hasn't been enough or, you know, just wasn't right. So the vacancy exists at Clare Martin? Yes. Yes. And they have a budget for that vacancy, we presume. That comes from the, you know, technically through the state police, but yes, that is still available. Okay. I assume the town of Randolph gives money to Clare Martin Center every year? Yes. At least some. Special appropriations. Special appropriations. The voters do. Yes. That's like five grand. Okay. And do you know, I don't know if you do or not, any idea if there are grants available to Clare Martin to help fund an employee, kind of like similar to the COPS grant? Yeah. Is there such a thing for them? Well, this all, I just see lots of grants about CIT training, about crisis intervention team training, which isn't actually an embedded person, but that are federal dollars. Right. But not to actually pay a salary or a portion of a salary. I assume they already have that. Okay, I wouldn't know that. They already have that. If the state police are trying to fund it and they can't get the person, Clare Martin is trying to fund it. They already have the funding available, so it wouldn't be out there when I'm trying to hire. Right. So the funding is there. It's more the fact of trying to get the person. Sounds okay. Yeah. And it sounds like just helping out Randolph would be more attractive to somebody than being with the state police at that level. We're working directly for Clare Martin and that's what I've often thought, is that if you had that issue, like other energy stew hospitals and such, they'd give a call to Clare Martin. Here we're having this issue. Someone from Clare Martin, you'd expect that would, that's what they do. We'd come in and help with those situations. Well now, so just so you know, as of January supposedly, as of January 1st, the whole state is going to this new model of mobile mental health crisis that is the Department of Mental Health has put out a RFP for and HCRS, so the Mental Health Agency and Windsor and Wyndham Counties has the contract, but every single mental health agency has signed on to this contract where they are gonna go to a new model where they have two people on, they have to have a two person response and one of those people could be by telemedicine. One has to be in person, one could be a peer, but the two people, the officer doesn't count as one, it has to be two clinicians. They don't have to both be licensed. There's a lot of parameters around it, but they are gearing up for this to happen. There's a lot of training involved that's gonna be required. There's a lot of meetings about it. And nobody's really confident that anybody's gonna be ready to start this in January. They were supposed to try to do a little pilot in one county starting October, it didn't happen. It's been a little bit like just a lot of bureaucracy, I think. How many people are they talking if it's state? Well, it's every single mental health agency, every county. And that means you have to hire people and that's the thing that a lot of the mental health agencies are like where are the people we're gonna hire? They have money for it and they're gonna get, if they can comply with this two person response thing, they get an enhanced rate per response and it doesn't count if you're providing services at the emergency department, that doesn't count. You have to do it outside of the hospital. And it's all because, this is all because there's one or two agencies, not our county, who have never been able to do this, never been able to actually go out and respond with police and everybody else was supposed to be able to do that since the Irene flood. And they got money to do that, but a couple of agencies just never got it together. And so because of that inconsistency around the state, the Department of Mental Health has said, okay, well, none of this, now we're gonna do this whole thing and everybody has to do it. So a lot of agencies are completely panicked and scrambling. And a lot of them still have a lot of questions because they haven't actually seen like the scope of work and some other things. So whether it happens starts in January, I'm guessing I'm probably more likely to be March or April, but that's gonna be the model. So if that really happens, then in theory, there would be somebody that ran off B.D. Cookall. Yeah, two people, two people, I believe. I think so, I think so. But meanwhile, nobody knows where these people are gonna come from when they're all short staffed anyway. Right, or where they'll be. You seem so knowledgeable about this. So the question I have, do they have mental health like travelers? Like nurses, right? We get nurses from Mississippi and Alabama all over the country actually coming to be in nurses. You know, they're travelers and it costs a lot of money for travelers, but I'm just wondering if the mental health side of it, if they do traveling throughout the country. Not social workers, not that I've ever seen. No. Interesting. No, and these folks are the same. I mean, then you have the social workers, but you also have people called QMHPs, they're qualified mental health professionals, and they're qualified by the Department of Mental Health. And so they have a, they're the only people who can write a mental health warrant, along with police. And they're the people who go to court for any criminal case and where somebody needs to be screened for competency or sanity to either to do a forensic eval, it's a QMHP who has to respond to that. So that's the other, I mean, that's statewide, every county and by law, if a court calls, they have to respond within two hours. That's in the law. And so that's pretty much nine to five kind of schedule for the QMHP, but that's one of the issues is a lot of counties they have one person on which might be the QMHP. And so if they're at court, they can't go to the emergency department or if they're in the ED working with somebody, they can't just drop everything and run to the court. So I think the hope is, I don't know how it's gonna work with this two person model because there's been no mention that one of them has to be a QMHP and warrants can only be written by them and police. So I'm still waiting to see how that's gonna shake up. What about the staffing at Gifford as far as mental health? Last time you, they were pretty robust. They had hired a lot of behavioral health commissions. I think they still have a wait list, but they've definitely beefed up that department. Yeah, I know that. I just wonder if that would be a resource for the town in some capacity. I doubt it. I really doubt it. I think they're doing what they can to to take care of their patients, you know? I was wondering the difference between that and CVH. I know it's bigger, but how that could be for DTC. Even CVH, we don't, a lot of times in an emergency room, because of the shortage of those mental health technicians that you're talking about, a lot of times it's just a, just watching them in the TCA. Well, in Washington County, mental health responds to CVH. I mean, they're building this in the parking lots and they just walk over to the ED. But they also have lots of, they haven't embedded, they have a recovery coach in there, and I mean, they've got a lot of other services, yeah. But still, our manpower is quite stretched. So I would say in that mall, President Lyon item and contracted is probably pretty accurate, especially if Claire Martin's got funding, they just need the staff, right? To meet that piece of it. But it would seem like there's gonna have to be some way of working out kind of what those roles are and how they, how you work together and at what point they take over versus your, you know, how you transition that. Yeah, every one of these- That's more operational for you, it's not- Every one of these has an MOU. They all have an MOU. So between the mental health agency and the police department, or between state police and the department of mental health, it's all hammered out. And we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel because it's been done. I mean, we could tweak it for what we wanted, but it's pretty clear about liability and other stuff. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's way more beneficial than having them as an employee, for sure. Well, we were wondering if you had four calls a month. Who's gonna take that job, right? Like, what do you do with that person? That's where the struggle was, like- Well, right. Unless you had somebody that had all kinds of- So many things incorporate a need for a social worker. Well, I don't know, we've got a number of them, Scott. So, I just wanna be really clear, those four calls were actually true of mental health crises. Not like, you know, I got a problem with my neighbor that's not a criminal offense where maybe a social worker could hear a mean and it's not really a law enforcement aid call for service. Or the kid not going to school. I mean, that's- Right. So, what are schools doing throughout the state? How are they stepping up that piece? As far as mental health issues- Well, okay, so you said the kid not coming to school. To me, that's a truancy thing that's a school thing. It's not a, to me, it's not a policing thing. It's not a crime. Well, this school has hired a second social worker, counselor, the high school did anyway. They had one and now they have two. But they, and they, you know, I don't, I mean, in my work and my time trying to work with the schools and getting more mental health training for their people, I don't think they're doing, I don't think they're doing a very great job of it. You know, just when we heard from the superintendent there. Yeah. Said, well, he's been there six years and they said to call the police five times over six years. I said, okay, that's roughly one call a year. And then, you know, the truancy thing or the check is that what those social workers should be doing. They don't want to necessarily put a resource officer in the school because they said, well, some of the board members in the school board don't want to have a gun in school, if you will. That's how we put it. My question is, well, does he have to, or he or she have to have a gun in school to be a resource officer? I wouldn't suggest that that has to happen. You know, so I'm just kind of wondering how the school deals with it versus calling the police department who solves crime. I think it goes both ways. I think some of them, they do on their own, but it sounded to me like some of them, they have concerns about what was going on in the home also and felt like it may be better addressed with a law enforcement person. Or should it be better addressed with more of a social worker because of what's going on at home? You know, because I don't look as a police department as a counseling agency for people who have a domestic dispute rather than when someone throws punches. You know, that's a part, I don't look at that piece of policing personally. I'm saying that their job is to be a social worker because Henry and Jane aren't getting along today. I think the bottom line is, if you disagree, say so. I think the bottom line is even though we may or may not think that an embedded social worker would be a useful tool for the police department, would be great to have, might get used a lot, might get used a little, whatever. The bottom line is, it's not really a concern for our budget. Well, it is. If you're gonna hire somebody, that's a different piece than a contracted employee that are a service, and if Clara Martin has the budget for it and is gonna have the employees, that's different than if we have to have an employee and we have to account for it. So I think what we needed to get our head around was what does that look like and how is that piece of it met? And none of us had the answer last time. So it was good that Kristen could give us that. It seems like there's a model out there that Kristen's talking about that towns sign MOUs with their mental health agency. Yeah, and some towns kick in some of the money and some, most of them don't. Right. I mean, or some of them raise their tax. But if there's a piece of money to be kicked in, to me it would fall under that line of contracted services, not a line of saying an employee benefits, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah, it seems, especially if we were just starting out down that road, it would make the most sense. The part of the town sharing in the expense was the original idea that was floated, I can't remember which town now, but it was to show that collaboration really between mental health and law enforcement. That was one of the big pieces of it was we don't want this to be people to perceive this person as a police employee and we also think that it's important resource for the police and they're gonna really benefit from it. So we wanna show this collaboration so if they share in that, just like, I mean, state police funds part of my position because they recognize the value of the training when you collaborate together. After that first year, it was just Department of Mental Health, after that first year, we went to the state police and said, hey, look, can you contribute? And then we can include more of your people like dispatchers and stuff and they absolutely did and they have every year since for 10 years. So part of it is just, if it's a small line item like 10 grand or whatever it is, it's sort of a show of, I don't know, good faith solidarity or something, yeah. All right, so I think we- Maybe it's something that simply shows up in the town budget, but not part of the police. That's what I was gonna say. Okay. Because I think your police- The symptoms that are gonna be- We need an awful lot more information on it. What do you wanna know? You talked so many different things, Kristen, that I'm trying to put all the details together in a number and maybe that's my failing. I mean, do we have a number to put- Well, the number pot, I don't know what the number would be. That's okay. I don't think anybody has a number until they really understand it, but also understand who's exactly gonna pay for it. Does it fall into the mental health agency? The state police gonna pay for it? I mean, who's exactly going to pay for it? So that reminds me, so the other thing that happened, so the state police guy who's embedded like the town of Swanton and the town of Milton, like some of the other towns have borrowed him a convocation and that started happening in Burlington even with their street outreach people. The South Burlington PD was finding they were using Burlington street outreach people to solve some problems and so they, I know that with state police anyway, they're like, we're gonna let Swanton borrow them, we're gonna let people borrow them, but if it gets to a point where so many hours are being spent over there, then we're gonna go and ask them for some contribution. That has happened up there. And so they have a really nice relationship and that's exactly what happened with Bennington and how they, they're now, they now see how beneficial it is so they're gonna come up with the funding to fund their own position after this year is their plan because the Shaftesbury guy was getting loaned to Bennington when he could go there and that's how they did it. So I don't know if a shared thing with the Royals and Barracks and Randolph would work, if that would attract the right person to, if they knew they would have the Randolph thing, that may be a really good partnership. It almost feels like it's a conversation with Claire Martin's center to see. Well it's definitely a conversation with Claire Martin but I'm definitely kind of hearing like, especially like on the interim phase, the start out phase if you will, that once that employee was found to go to the Royals and Barracks, that might be that conversation where now we are crossing into that realm in regards to what's this gonna cost? How often do we utilize this person? And so on and so on and so on and then we can further make those determinations on how do we staff or all the above and just kind of thinking along those lines because we're kind of, how do we do it now where we don't even know what's gonna end up working? Well and sustain it because who's gonna wanna start a job that they think is gonna end in a year, right? I mean, there's that piece as well is to have some solid foundation to assure them that they're gonna have a job in three years, yeah. Understanding all that, do we feel like the $10,000 number under contracted services is the right number and should we be calling that out differently so it's a $10,000 allocation for mental health contracted services and then have other contracted services? Or is that the only? What other contracted services do you have? Where would it be? Any kind of contracts that we do like on a school special function or from the fair, that's a contracted service? This is on the expenditure side. So if you had to hire somebody to move some, I don't know if you contract for somebody to move, somebody to Springfield or... Oh, transport? Yeah, or that type of thing, is that contracted? So we would be like, you know, your radio repair. That's in your center, right? You know what I'm saying? Like that type of thing, that'd be a contracted service with whoever that takes care of your radios. Those are the mix of either telecom or technology though, historically. So if that's your only contracted service, we should just change that. We should try it. I don't think you should just throw a number and then make it a mental health contracted services when you don't even know this is a good time on it at all. Thing and I think it would be attractive to Clair Martin. I mean, I think it's a great starting point. Guess I'll direct you on that one. Yep. You can narrow that one in. Can Scott, can I ask you a question if these different models are gonna require you to hire more staff offices? In today's world, how difficult is it to hire people? So I've used the phrase recently on phishing out of a fished out pool. So it will be difficult. Okay. I thought that. Well, it's not really salary dependent, don't you think? I mean, Montpelier's had no problem because they're the highest paid police force in the state. And they went to their city and they said, we need to, we can't find anybody. We have open positions. And so the town, the city gave them a bigger budget so they can, so they're fully staffed. Capital police is looking for a chief at 139 grand. I mean, like, nuts, don't get any ideas. How does that sound, Scott? No idea. I'll be honest with you. Oh, it would be awful. It's not even really policing. I mean, come on. They don't even have patrol cars. I think it's all up to each locality, though. You know, like Burlington had a, as a town or a city council or whatever they are up in Burlington and they kind of got in a little bit of a, you know, defund the police mode. And a lot of officers left and said, you know what, I'm gonna go elsewhere to work because these folks don't support me. You know, and so I think it's all a matter of, you know, Montpelier. You know what I said, we're willing to wage rages and we like it and what happens. Well, people from the state police, people from maybe even Randolph police, you know, I'm gonna go work from Montpelier. You know? So people move around and move around quite a bit. Oh, they totally move around. Right. But right now, it literally is whoever's offering the most money. Well, absolutely. And here's the only police officer you hire is when you steal from somebody else. We have the same in health care. It's the same thing, same thing happens. It's in everything. Yeah, more so than it has ever been. Poaching is the new advertising for positions. That's our, you know, you gotta go out and target somebody and say, hey. Yep. My last three poachers were from other hospitals. Yeah. They were. Yeah, they were. Okay, so any other line items that people wanna go into more detail, this is on the existing district. And again, these don't include vehicles. Vehicles are not. Or a building. Right, vehicles. And then you'll see it's highlighted when we get to the option three there, that the building one. What's the dispatch expense? That is for our agreement with Berry City for those off hours, other hours. Okay. Yeah. And that's a fixed, that's not gonna. That's based on our agreement with them and that shouldn't change in the existing model. We've held it constant in the next model, but if we got into a bigger force with more activity in the town-wide model, we put a number in there, but we have to go back to them and be able to stay sort of what? And some of it's call bond independence, some of it's, you know, those other factors, but. And is the, have we gotten the right number on the fingerprinting this time? On the end of the revenue? Yeah. So the rules says challenge accepted, so. Yeah. What are you doing all of this? What are you doing all the fingerprinting? On the second job, I think. What are the reasons people have come back? I've had nine of them as a service and stuff. There's nobody here. For nursing, for education, all those kind of proper pieces. They're demanding that everybody, for their background checks, that they get things. Well, they changed the rules. Joe, they changed the rules this year, last year. Do we have to get more often? You have to have the background check. So it used to be, like once every 10 years, now it's every two years or something for nurses. I mean, it's really increased the demand. And nobody else was doing them, so they like scarfed in all the business. And the only better fingerprinted once in life, and that was in 1977. They said, yeah, I'll go in the Marines. You're a big home gate. There you go. All right, let's move on to the modified. So modified, yep, same deal with the green. Line numbers are where it changed. I mentioned earlier that we had to make the part-time officer hours match from that earlier one. So these slight changes in these three categories reflect back since they're all, this changes the wage number, and then these two are based on that. So I think it works out to a $4,000 or $5,000 difference between the two. Because we'd be adding more vehicles, more people, there's a slight increase in general insurance costs from the last version. Same thing with technology. That's where we pay for everything from handheld radios to mobile data units for the vehicles, then the other tech upgrades we'd need, more vehicles, more people, with the potential for more vehicle fuel use, everything supplies. We pitched up the advertising a little bit since we'd be hiring. That's probably still too low based on what we found from our extensive experience in hiring before poaching the last two years as an organization, but it's a number that's in there. And then the same thing with the telecom which gets into cell phone and some other communication pieces. Contract of service line is the same. We'll be in all the models. The vehicle increases are up a little bit. Because we have extra vehicles. Training and development's that same metric where we use $1,500 for our employee. And then you'll see in the uniforms, this one's up from the prior version and that's that 3,300 per, because we've got the two spares, but in this panel we'd be adding two more people. So that's where you get that difference there. And then because we'd have more vehicles, more equipment, more people, we inched up the equipment transfer from 25 to 35 in this model. Do you use a uniform service? You purchase all of your staff their own uniforms or do you use like a uniform service, like a uniform or still whatever? To clean them. I saw the officer to... To your own laundry. We don't have a contract for anybody, for uniforms, employees handle that. They can go through a uniform or some of the other departments or they do it on their own like a cops. This modified district, this contemplates two additional FTEs. Right, and those would be officers. Not anybody else's. Two on top of what the existing also has additional officers in it. Just the mail, skip ahead real quick, because we're doing that first. Like the next... So just after the budget pages, yeah, it shows sort of existing, we've got a footprint for about four full-time employees. So it's a chief, two officers, and then a rose. And then it's a part-time capacity. So when we get into the existing district model, we're talking six FTEs. So that's four full-time officers plus chief. Modified as six plus chief. Townwide as eight plus chief. We leave the part-time footprint the same in the three that we're looking at tonight. We need to see our full-time account. Basically it goes up in twos. Not it. On your, on each one you have the cops going in for 50,000 as a revenue. So is that like a guarantee every year of getting it? If we got it, it would be a three-year and then we'd have to phase in the rest of the expenses. And that's the model we can build out of it. We wanted to show it because we proposed using it before. It went from two times three or one time so you get one shot in the spring, I think it is now. So we're able to get that. We could be more aggressive with how we use it. There isn't sort of you have to use it in equal thirds. You can kind of step it in. You go back to some of the other models we have before the votes. We were using it more aggressively in year one and kind of tapering it off so that that cost was something that whoever was paying for it walked into it more gradually. So we could do that. That might change some of the modeling in terms of if we assign specific officer costs to the cops grant because it'll cover those pieces for it. And we might be able to lower some of those numbers as we get into it. We wanted to just hang on to it. We just have to apply. It would be granted and then it would be a three-year window. And they'd use the cops grant at one time. I'm going to hire a resource officer for the school. And then it went away and they went to the school and said, hey, would you fund the position? And the school said, no. They didn't mind getting it when it was a cops grant paying for it. So I'm wondering how stable is that? $50,000 a year after year after year after year of writing your budget if you don't know you're going to have it. Well, you don't get it forever. You don't get it forever. That's what I'm saying. So it's over. You get it for three years. Three years. And then you don't get the year. It gives you three years to build the support and put it in. So with it, then what happens when it goes away? We put it down, but then all of you have it. But your expenditure side goes up, and your expenditure side isn't going back down. Correct. Right? So now you're paying that $50,000 that you thought you were. So there's a raise in taxes on those folks that are once that goes away. Correct. To keep that same program level. Correct. Right. And these colorful things are proposed schedules. Yeah. So we'd be open. But we'd be open till two. I mean, we'd still do the 72 business. So I mean, those were just mock schedules. Yeah. Yeah. There's a whole bunch of tweaking. That was just to get that out to more kind of a. Give a visual. Sure. Why you would need eight officers or six officers. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So a contract doesn't even pay an FTE. I mean, you could. You'd go from broke, pay for the whole thing in a single year and have a little bit left over. But I think trying to remember what the max award was was 150 or 175, something like that. So you've got three years. But in 50 grade a year, that doesn't even pay for one year FTE, seven or five years. No, it's easiest to think of it as an offset rather than a way to buy for something. Absolutely. And maybe by the end of three years, there'll be something else out there to apply for. Neil, did I jump ahead of you? Did you have a question for Trevor? It is more than that. Yeah, just on the part time officers, you've got three and 450 hours. Is that 450 for each officer? No, that would be the total for each of them. We break them out into 250, 250. Okay. If the math worked there, I think it was off. But however you get there, we break them out. Okay. That adds for the total. Yeah. Because we have one individual who might be interested in working a couple hours on a Friday on a radio basis. So they help augment our capacity, but it's not. That's all I needed to know. Thank you. We don't necessarily budget for, we may use part time officers. So this year we helped Royalton, because Orange County wasn't able to do it, Royalton covered Tumbridge Fair. They asked us to help. We plugged in some part time capacity. So we may not necessarily budget for that, but you'll see it come out as a revenue and expense because we get paid for our time there at the agreed upon rate and it covers that expense. So the hours that you actually see might vary. It just depends. This is what we're thinking we'll pay for with our own. Okay. So you don't actually have a wine item for a part time officer? No, that gets baked right into that. Yep. Yeah. One sort of salary number. So we'll go back to the crop strength. Does the crop strength have to be used on personnel or can it be used for equipment? No, it's going to be used on personnel. It's usually specified as a new hire. Okay. Yep. Thanks. We can't take a break and then apply and get it again for three years and pay for existing personnel. If you're going to make some band-aids. But if you reduce your personnel cost and then the other piece can, well you reduce your personnel cost by, then you can spend that on equipment if you will, because that's covering that that way. So I just didn't know how to find the equipment. Yeah. The fence is particular, so we try to keep them at least not unhappy with us. Absolutely. Great. You're going to walk through the town line. Yep. Let's go down there. Back to you, Mark. So to go back to the question you had at the very beginning and the thing you received from Marty, you met earlier version and hanging out here on line 19 was the $100,000 that's in as the general fund payment for service now. It's in the other two miles. If you go town-wide, this all becomes a town-wide expense, a general fund expense. So that payment is no longer needed where you'll see it show up essentially is up here in the taxes full assessment. Can I make sure that I understand this? The $100,000, who pays it? We all pay it. Is that right? It's in the general fund, right? So it's part of my tax bill. Yep. Okay. And it works out. I don't know, it's a couple of cents based on. Do you literally spend down that line by the calls you do outside the district or is it just kind of thrown into it? I think there's some of the discussion is about how to set that model up if we retain it both this year and beyond. And so the Woodstock model is the one we've talked about in terms of there's a defined number of hours. I mean, they've got separate governmental structures which is a little different. But maybe that's a model we use where we define hours, define vehicle use and we try to send that down as part of our sort of. So that's how our original set up. I was on the select board. So it was originally set up because State Police made a call to scratch crew and they had you out of district. So they were supposed to on those hours would be spent against that line. The idea was is because they're not in the police district. The 65% of the money in that comes from outside the district. That's roughly the ratio 35% of the grand value or whatever the grand list value is inside the district, 65% out. So knowing that that was the model then at today's dollars because the dollars back then were like 15 or 20,000. Today's dollars is $100,000. At $100,000, $65,000 is being there for them to use outside the district. That was why when Scott said that one meeting that he was stopping by up at Gifford or up at Morgan Orchards, if you will, I said, okay, so did you put your expenditure towards that line? Because that's how the select board set it up at that time. I'll be transparent and say I didn't vote for it because I saw it as a police district expansion. However, it had been passed and it's been in the budget ever since. It also paid for the sheriff's department which at that time we had like out of that 20,000 we had like an $8,000 for the sheriff's department that was doing whatever patrols they were doing outside the district. So that's how it initially worked and then it's wound to where it is now. So that's when I come up and say, hey, $65,000 is already available to be spent outside the district. No, that's not how it's in there now. That might have been how it was. So the town had a contract with Orange County Sheriff even when we had our own PD and they did patrols throughout the town where it was, but for the majority of that it was outside of the district. So we would have speeding issues, we would have challenges somewhere and the call would be made, Orange County would come and help do that. Then when we got eliminated the police department and contracted with Orange County the need was still there for outside. That number jumped up to 25,000. It's a general fund expense, but the whole 25,000 was under contract with Orange County to do for the coverage and things that they did outside. When we put the $100,000 in the budget this year to do it, it's the full 100,000 for outside of the district. The money does come from the general fund which means everybody in the town helps pay for that. It's in the tax rate for it, but it's the money is there and it's as a contract for service for what's needed outside of the town. So 65, what I'm saying though 65,000 of that comes from outside the district because that's the rough ratio. Oh, I see what you're saying. So that's the rough ratio. So 65,000 is already presently paid outside the district on that $100,000. From the revenue source side, but the expenditure side, the full 100,000 is there to be spent outside of it. Right, right. Now, the thing is just quantifying what the cost is for leaving the district at present with the state police coverage already there as well. So how much a year does, and that's why I'm trying to get finer with those numbers, how much is a year is the Randolph Police Department actually spending in time outside the district? And does that $65,000 already cover that? Everybody well could, maybe it doesn't. I don't know. At the time when many predecessors bought you, right, at that time they had put a number out there because they had actually at that time they had a separate Sheriff's Department for $8,000. And that was just a kind of bolster of what maybe needed from inside. And at the time, they didn't spend $4,000 went outside the district of what were documented, charged against it, that type of thing. Early on, they didn't, but I think they, as we got towards the end, they started doing a much better job of expending it because the demands started, you got the demands higher for, but it was a lot. So if you look at how many times maybe that Scott's having to go out there, not that he has to, I mean, you can always sell the state police, sorry, we're short handed just like you are. You don't have to cover yourself. However, the times you are, thank you for doing what you do. The times that you are, what does that add up to on, what does that dollar value add up to? And is the $65,000 still cover that? Or are you spending 100 grand outside the district? Or are you spending 20 grand? So what's that real number? To give an idea of where that is. You're staying to the just in the district model, you know where it is right now, and keep it the same. Because I don't know if Marty quite understands it correctly, but keeping it the same, would that 100,000, or should I say 65,000 outside the district cover the need? Yeah, I mean, the goal is to set it up to provide the right amount of coverage and to find the right assignment of cost. We've been at this since February. So to the extent the committee's looking for resolute, solid trend line answers on anything. We don't have it. And we just haven't existed that long. So some of that plays into multi-year trends and accounting for things in ways they've never been accounted for. So that's why we go back to what are the models that are in place out of places? Woodstock's probably the cleanest example for what we've got going on based on what we've looked at with some of the benchmarks. And so we try to build out from there what looks like a footprint for that dollar amount. What does that essentially value? Can we then translate that with officer capacity into that level of service? And it wouldn't necessarily be a dedicated officer who only does that. It might be an hour footprint. So then that way it maintains some flexibility and response both in and out. So if somebody's tied up on something and there's a second call outside of the district, we can go and cover that. Or if somebody's tied up inside, you can get that number. Some of the data you've provided, again, thank you for the data you've provided, some of that data that you've provided showed how many hours were being spent on calls, right? And so looking at that and saying, okay, these are the ones out of the district is how many hours and how much does it cost per hour per call, on an average. Like I said, it's never gonna be finite enough that one person gets paid more than the other, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's more okay. So what is that real cost? And what is that costing? Costing against, say, that $100,000. What is that costing? I don't think costs or time spent is ever gonna be the metric though to determine both cost and service. I think that's one of the things we covered because it's way too variable, not well tracked. And that's, yeah, everybody has that same problem. So I think it can be instructional or informational. But when we think about how to assign costs anywhere, what's the right footprint for the district time per call, isn't because it doesn't also account for the times that you are there in a purely preventative stance. So when just your availability, your presence, that time in between, because we're not logging the patrol times in between, what impact does that have? And so you have to take that as one piece and try to build out what's that cost model. And so we're using what is the standard municipal framework where we're trying to figure out what's the need, what's the number of hours, how much does that get us in terms of hours of coverage? Can we put it in the places where we have different needs for different things at different times? Can we figure out some ways to pay for in this model? Because you've got one officer's, you can see we can, ordnance fines go up a little bit. That's because we're able to do speed enforcement in different places. Say contracts for service go up because maybe we're able to provide something for a brain tree or a brick field that offsets some of our costs. And so it's a, we're mixing and matching. It's, you know, we're making a stew rather than, but, but. So help, help me understand. Like right now state police provide some level of coverage to the town. Do we have any idea of what, what that staffing level looks like? Not from numbers, but like how, about how many hours of service they're providing us. Do they give us any of that? Here's my concern. We have been pounding the table hard and a lot of arenas of unfunded mandates from the state or things we're picking up that the state used to pay for and whatnot. Right now we have a level of police service in the town that is the state's responsibility. And under this town by model, we're looking at letting them walk away from that and we'll be taking that on and paying for it and half of the staff it and cover it. And I just, that goes against everything we have been like really hammering home with a lot of different state agencies, you know, even we get all these grants that the town has to play a role in. We have no reason to play a role in it, but we have to commit staff time. We have to commit resources. We have to commit all these things for these grants that do they benefit the community as a whole? Yes, probably at some extent, but it's at the burden of our employees. And now we're looking at saying, okay, state police, we're gonna let you off the hook. You're just gonna back us up now. We're gonna cover this and we're gonna take on this expense and this staffing and this equipment, which is, you know, like what are we, we're shifted. We're like, it just feels like we're constantly saying, we don't want it, you know, stop. Why are you making us do it? And now we're saying, hey, bring it on. We'll take all this and pay for it and staff it. It's just contrary to that kind of. I don't disagree with you, but on the flip side of that is, you know, what's the cost of the public safety? Because if state police literally can't respond because they don't have enough people, you're putting your public at risk. There's two signs. Right now, the Royalton Barracks is at half staff, literally half of what they're supposed to have. And I know, and you would like to say, that's not my problem. The town of Brando is your coverage area. You need to take care of it. And I don't disagree with that, but what about the public? Who's suffering because there is nobody to cover. But we're saying we're fishing out of the same pond and trying to get them and they can't get them. It doesn't mean we're gonna get them. But as soon as we say, we're going town-wide, guess what? We're only gonna have three or four officers to cover the entire town. And then where are we gonna be? Yep. Just move it. You know, it's a slippery slope. But it is. We better move to where we're asking for it. We're talking about the public safety piece of it. However, what you haven't really kind of talked about is that the people calling to expand the district, believe it or not, Marty Strange is one of them says it's not fair. And others, not that I'm afraid to say it publicly, but I don't think that I need to people know who people are. No one from outside the district is calling for this. It's all gonna call for from inside the district as they saw a budget that was higher. Convince people that, well, you need to do it for cheaper as we're gonna vote down this budget. And oh, by the way, as a side thing, we wanna expand to the town so the rest of the town can pay for this. They haven't seen extraordinary policing problems outside the district. And of those ones that are the most dangerous to state police in an open letter said they respond. So that's where, like I said, the announcement, so to say that there's a public safety risk, well, there's a public safety risk falling on the railroad tracks, too. But I look at it in that certain light and said, no one from outside the district is called for this. I haven't seen one letter to the editor. I haven't seen anybody that says, you know what? Crime is really bad on the Davis road and we need to increase this police district. That's not what I've heard. You know, what we're hearing more so is how do we spread this wealth? And how do we spread it to some people that are very large landowners that's gonna put a huge tax burden on farmers? I look at it and say, who's calling for this? He says it's fair. Well, you know what's fair also? I haven't seen the sewer pipe come to my house. I haven't seen the water pipe come to my house. I have my own water and sewer. Randolph Center does not have trash barrels that are picked up by the town. Yeah, they're picked up down here. East Randolph does not have trash barrels picked up by the town. So if we want to talk about fair, right, they have recreation down the middle of town. No one's given the kids a ride from South Randolph to go to the nation. So we play this little fair game that might be strange because I take his letter for exactly what it's worth. He wants to expand the district and other people to play for a safe spot. That's exactly how I see it. And I'm quite open about it and have been open about it. Can you guys explain how you came up with that? Because I missed the little half hour or whatever hour you were on after I left, when you created this expanded district with the red lines on this map? So we basically, well, we... Did you see the fence, Kristen? I see. It doesn't really go in. No, no, it doesn't really go in. The idea was to cover, it looks like VTC and then... No, we didn't go to VTC. We stopped at the intersection there. So there was a... It would cover McDonald's, the bar, and Morgan Orchards, the new hotel that's gonna be a nightmare for police. The trip's gonna be... Oh, I do, yeah, because it's gonna be homeless and FSU housing. No, it is not. Extended stay rooms with kitchenette. No, it's not. Okay. Okay. The kitchenette. All right, so that's... The chief and I know what it's gonna be. So what we did was, in the hearings and all the stuff, a lot of folks were saying was these were the areas that needed the services or were calling for them? And so those areas that are added in are the areas that were being talked about during the different meetings and the public stuff. And then the Lister's office said they would appreciate it if we would include entire parcels instead of portions of parcels because they have to calculate manually what that rate is, which I think once you get it, once it's not, you know, you got it, you just gotta redo your calculation. But, so the first go at it that we asked Trevor to do was to include the entire parcels so we could see what it looked like. Okay. Just to give us kind of a starting spot to say. And then it seems reasonable if we were covering chores that we just go to the town line. Oh, that's the town line. Right, okay. I know. Let's do a loop. Right, so the being the loop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Because the Lister is impacted because these property owners are the ones who would be taxed on it. Right, if you do the entire parcel it's pretty easy because the data's already there. If you do just a distance from the road they have to just calculate what that area is and put it into a sort of a formula to do it that way. But it can be done. And this expanded district is reflected in this second, oh, no, existing. It's the modified, modified, modified, okay. Which modifier is voter approval? Correct to modify the district. Yeah, yeah, voters get involved. Okay. Well they could get involved in the town wide one too. Correct. Okay. I mean the voters are involved all the way around. Trini, you made a really good point. I'm concerned about this, about town wide. I mean besides Joe's point of these people in Fish Hill don't need it. But about if we said we're going town wide then what if we still only had four officers to cover the whole town? They're covering the whole town. Yeah, right, so. We're now the primary. Because we're not gonna be anywhere near the highest paying police department in the state. I thought if you go town wide you're talking additional officers. But you can't find them. If you can get a fund them. But where are you gonna fund them? If you can get a practicality to that. That's why I brought the question up to Scott. We may not be able to go town wide. So at the very least we're back to the rest. Maybe another reaction of what we had to have. In modified. Possibly. Yeah, you either add officers to your existing area or you add officers and expand to the areas that you're going to a lot anyway. When the village was originally set up, Route 66 was just a hinterland wasn't it? There was nothing up there. There was no McDonald's. There was no barn. Nothing. The Margin Arches wasn't there. Correct. All this stuff has come in and the whole town has come in. Joe, you talk about the farms. I ride around there and most of the farms I see are closed. Now there's still quite a few operating farms. There's 21 dairy farms and we end up still. Let's not stray too far off our... But there's other large properties. What I'm more getting at is that we don't have the time that the village may have. Is Morgan's? What tends to bring... No, there's a tax agreement on the town. Oh, okay. So where are your business sectors in the town? Where you tend to see where your crime is. Okay, and I'm not trying to be confrontational with your children. Sure, I'm open. I just mentioned that, but I know in the expanded, the area that we're talking about an expansion, I know from having conversations with Scott that they run into crime up in that area, up in the barn or up in the parking right. I don't disagree that they might have some shoplifting or someone might break into a car at the parking right. I don't disagree with you at all. I also know that the state college provides their own security. That's right. I said that to make it right. Provide any doesn't, not that he doesn't need the police, but he doesn't need them often. The barns provide their own security. The what? The barn or breakers, I vote. The gas station. Whichever one you want to call. They have their own security. Yes. I didn't know that. Right, right. They just did it. They just hired them. Gifford has made the choice not to provide their own security up there, but Gifford has her own security here in town. Again, their private entity, that's their own choice of where they want to be with it. But beyond that, what expansion has had happened to be on that? Can we? Really nothing. I hear you, Joe. Thank you, dear. When we did this map, just to say, if we did a modified district, what's that gonna look like? I think we have to have the conversation about whether it includes the entire parcel or not. And the one that just keeps coming back to my mind is the one that has the little tiny piece of land at the bottom of Stock Farm Road. And that is triggering an entire parcel, how the Stock Farm Road to be in the district. Yeah, I slid it off a little bit here, but I would probably loop some of this in too. It goes out and takes in quite a slug of land there, but. But is that more of the Brunswick School who provide their own parts and pieces? I don't know if it was theirs or not. It highlighted the day we were looking at it. And it was really funky shaped. Right, I remember that last week. It went all the way down and then it went up for this way and it had a little piece over here. I understand the Lister is like the idea of the entire parcel being in. I just, you know, if we're going to look at what the expanded district would look like, I think we've got to look at kind of what, does that make sense? I'm gonna get asked that question of why is this, why is this the kind of what you went with? And does it make sense to you to expand the district given the calls that you respond to? I haven't compared this to the, all that data that we got with the. I'm already doing it. It pretty much, I'm already doing it. I'm dealing with calls at the barn, you know, it's not, they don't have around the clock security. It's from like nine o'clock to maybe two in the morning. And so anything during the day, it's a drug activity place right now. It's just a stop and go. The park and ride again, you know, it's not that far away from the barn. You know, you go out, stretch your legs, go up 66, make a turn around and the park and ride come back down through. Currently what we're doing right now, we're already kind of driving through the expanded district or expanded boundaries is what we're already doing right now. You know, going south on to fall, we're already going out towards Beanville to make a loop back to come into town. We're passing off Henderson Drive, but you know, it is where it is, but we're still dealing with that with, because we're getting called from state police, can you help us respond to this, you're closer? So that factured into your discussion last week on the big end of the Smith, yeah. It makes perfect sense too, because we've grown so much. I mean, with all that we deal with, I would think, like what you just said, to figure out a way. When we have the 100,000 that goes into that general fund that we just talked about, is there a way to increase that without figuring out the zoning parcels to increase the coverage that you do without taxing? Taxing, do you know what I'm saying? Like is there a generic way to grow? Like if you're gonna say this is part of the district, it needs to be part of the district. And it needs to get as part of that. Like if we're gonna say you're not part of the district, then the response should be limited in what they do. Some of what we heard was that there's a lot of calls up that way and there's a lot of calls down the shelf. So those entities ought to be part of paying the tax that pays for that police department, given that they use the services quite a bit. Right. I was just trying to think of an alternative way to get the funding to do the expansion. And I think the problem with that is then you're asking the entire town to pay for. You are. Those businesses, peace versus. I think it has to be a separate vote from that expansion area. I think those people ought to have their own say so of what they want. Yeah, but what we gotta figure out is what we're gonna put out there. Well, once you come up with that, what is gonna be out there? I think it should be a separate vote of those, whether even if it's town-wide, I think those that are not in the present district now should be able to vote separately on, is this what we want or what we don't want? I don't think that's sort of what the discussion is about what the merger document. Trevor, did you say the 100,000 is? There's history. Is pennies as far as somebody's fax, right? Yeah, let's listen. Somebody's fax bill. Less than two cents. Okay. Scott, do you have any confidence at all that if the district was not changed, but that come fiscal year 25, do you have the money to add on two more officers? How confident are you that you could get two more officers? Pretty confident. Pretty confident of, you know, honestly with these kind of conversations of already started, you know, poaching, if you will. You know, they're, you know, kind of arms in the fire. I mean, you know, a lot of officers that care about this area, like this area, you know, they may be willing to jump, may, may. But, you know, it's also gonna be, you know, is the price right. Right. That's gonna be the biggest cell factor. Steve, I do not know what you and Jean Miguel and Chelsea are making. Do you feel that it's competitive? It's on kind of the lower side of mid. Could we? Yeah, keep the present village, but just add the lower part of it. Shores and that part of it. And not add up through. And not add up above. You can do anything. They tried that once, Neil. That one failed and then both went on to party. It failed pretty bad, yeah. Because Shores was trying to push it as Shores came in and put the name of the stores in. I think it was Agway or something like that. It was in there before. The Agay store. IGA, right there. The Agay store. That'd be a problem. So they tried that. The problem was is they tried it on that end of town and also included, if I'm not mistaken, Tatra Hill and all of that. And Shores didn't have a vote. They're a company. They don't have a vote on their own property. And so it was kind of pretty soundly defeated because it was others that, the homeowner's a Kenbo. Oh, I think that's part of the challenge is going to be still. We're, all of these lines are picking up businesses. What do we look at? Right. So this is just to sort of show you the shot as if you just did what Neil was talking about. You didn't do the Tatra Hill, the template Joe was talking about. You're really talking about these two right here and this. Would basically be all that gets at it. And then you've got a contiguous run because the district ends in that right about here. So you'd be adding the substation. So you don't get Beanville Road at all. Nope, you add this. I don't even know what's in there right now. That building. And then it really shows. Storage. But that would be that. But even if you had Beanville Road and you were to vote that separately, none of those folks that, or should I say that Industrial Park and LE Dynamics and all that, they can't vote on that. It's only the properties that are around it. You know what I mean? They can take a vote on it. Manager's driving it. And a few small agricultural spots, they can vote on it. So it's, again, when they tried to expand it to show us that was the difficulty is because I don't know. Personally, I don't know if I had a place to bank there. No, they didn't have that, you know? Just my own thoughts. Sheila, you might want to speak on that. You know what I'm saying? You don't have any police protection you're going to bank on there. Right, right, here. Can you? I don't know. It doesn't be a rock. No. The gray is a different, unidentified category in this context, doesn't mean anything. It's just there. But as you can see, that's the street district black. So where do we go from here? I think we're going to decide if what the boundaries are there now on these. If that's what we want to look at for that modified version. And I think some of the question was if we could put this to a tax impact, what that was going to do. And we've got to know what these boundaries are to be able to do that analysis. Because our, I mean, what we're going to do is make, we're going to come to some consensus about what we're proposing to the select board. Well, we're going to go out to the public with the three options first. Oh, that's very nice. The three can get the input. So we said, select board? I thought we went to the select board. I thought we went to the select board. I thought it was going to the select board. So our report was going to the select board. Our report does go to the select board, but we're supposed to be getting public input on this. So we're going to have to go out with the three options and hear from the public. And we've said we weren't going to do it yet because we didn't have the answers and we didn't have the information. Okay. So on August 14th in the paper, and I kind of sent them out to you folks. On August 14th in the paper, it was saying we were going to go to a public forum. We just didn't have enough information yet. Because I'd call for having a public forum. And I'd ask for that from the beginning that we invite the folks that, especially that are not in the district, to understand what they may have to pay for. What's the tax impact? You know, what's your interest in doing this? We brought in entities, it's thus far, we brought in like Claire Martin and Safe Line and the hospital and that. And the school, is anyone of them going to say, we don't really care to have the police? Of course they're not. That's not even feasible. We have gotten some numbers from them, right? And I have the numbers here, like the hospital said they'd call five times in the six years he's been there. And the school says go six times or whatever that is at the time he's been there. So we've gotten some numbers from them. But they're not going to say, no, we don't ever going to need a cop. No one wants police. Till they need them. Exactly. Till they need them. Just like a fireman. No one wants police. No, we all love firemen. Yeah, everybody knows. Nobody wants that with fire. Oh God. That's what I had, until you need them. They're a necessary evil. They are. Those that I at least contact me and I hear from them often say I'm satisfied with what the policing is that I have presently. So what we were talking about was the process next. And so we've kind of defined this modified version so we can know what those impacts are and what that looks like. And then we've got to put together the three scenarios and have an opportunity for the public to learn about what they are and have some input into it. So are we going to make a recommendation, put together a recommendation and add to the slide board? To the slide board. OK, I thought it was the other way around. Me too. That's all right. All right, so are we settled on this? I mean, have we all agreed that this, if we were going to do a modified district that this is what it would be modified to? No, we came up with some direction for Trevor and asked him to draw it out for us. Yeah, OK. And that's what that is. So I would like to propose that we cut off that Route 66 like that we had it done. And just keep the bottom. And discuss the southern end where Schoss is some more. Scott. I like both of them. Because if we're going to go for it, why not just say it and then let the voters say, nope, that's too far now. But I think that you have a lot of activity out there. I'm not saying I like it or don't like it. But I'm thinking about what might work and what might not work. Scott, I didn't mean it personally when I said no one wants police. Hang on a minute. I saved. No, I didn't. What made it that way? Go ahead. I think some of what we were coming up with was what we heard in those pushbacks of the police budget for the different things, but also looking at where the demand is. And so can you justify that expansion in those areas? And I think you can. I think our question more is going to be where do those red lines actually get drawn? And should we be drawing them on full property amounts and having this funky shape or should it be x number of feet from the center out of the road? Or we're going to, right? Like, what is that? I think we have to look at both of them. Yeah, so we kind of have what we asked for here, right? Which is the full, those follow the property lines. Correct, correct? We think someone has a one that goes all the way back over here and has the multiple. Let's see the stuff. We know the water, rather than the sewer ones. Let's just have this little nub right there. You have to hook on to the water with the sewer system if you're within 100 feet of the pipe. So you have to connect on to the water and the sewer. Yeah, let's just select where you're supposed to, my ordinance, connect on to the sewer line or the water line if you're within 100 feet of the pipe. So if you use that as a sort of a model that, and you have a big, huge property, funky shape like Trini is saying, that most of your land is just often somewhere, then maybe it's within 100 feet of Route 66. I think this is a parcel that we were talking about, that we weren't sure kind of what to do with it. And this is all one property owner. And that little tiny piece in the top right, top left, is the only one that actually touches 66. But it pulls that entire parcel in as being part of the police district. So if that's the case, and there's somebody all the way in the far southeast corner of that property that calls in, and the state police say, oh, sorry, you're in the police district. And that's, you're now running all the way out there for that call. And how much of a nightmare, Scott, do you know how much of a nightmare this, or maybe Judy, you do for dispatchers? Yep. That's what I was thinking. I mean, that would be, it's going to be really tricky, right? Can you exempt this one from me, or not? But it could be that you just, this one, you draw the nub and around there just to, and that's essentially what I've shown in. But that's the school, right? That's what school is. That's like school. That's how I did these lines when I set this up. Let's just see if there are little corners cut off there. But we can't forget that the state police and Scott, they help each other. So no matter where the boundaries are, they're helping each other right now when one can't get. So I mean, you're defining it and trying to expand it. But they aren't going to just say, no, I can't go there because it's not in there. We're not as worried about them. We're worried about the poor person that gets the 911 call figuring out who they're supposed to send it to. OK. Yeah, the dispatcher. All right, I see what you're saying. I was just thinking the opposite. No, it's going to be only tricky. Like who they're supposed to call, local or not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got you. It's about response connectivity. You could consider, what we jokingly referred to as the lollipop option up 66. So the corridor gets drawn into. Before you bowl or at me, let me finish. And I get behind somebody so that we would drive essentially within the right away of 66 up until you get here to where you have the activity. And then you create sort of those boundaries around the area to which we're responding. So these folks. How much are we reacting to? Like this activity right now, right, in that Morgan Lutrud parking lot. Is that what you're pointing to right there? That would be a bit of this upper reach right here. And then we talk about the hotel that you say is going to be a drug, then. I mean, the stuff changes, right? There's going to be some other time we're going to have a skateboard park and there'll be trouble down, I don't know, wherever. Like I don't want to be reactive just because right now we're having this problem up that way. Well, it's where your development is right now. It's what I'm, you know, if you look at what you got going on, you got your McDonald's, you got your gas station, you got your Gifford expansion, the hotel. Piece of property. There's a few others talking about going up there. I think that's where your development and the sort of stuff is. Can the issue be looked at again in a couple years? We can in a couple months after we make the decision, even right there's no timeline on it. Maybe all kinds of issues will come up up in the hill way on there. The question I have, like Gifford and their taxes on Morgan Orchard, so they worked out some kind of a deal a few years back when they were building that because they thought they weren't going to be taxed, but they ended up being taxed. You may know a whole lot more than I do about that. Well, the town has the ability to work with a developer to give them a break on their town taxes. And so that's what's, they have an agreement on the same as LED in some of them. It's usually a 10-year period. In most cases, we allow them to not pay for the first five years and then they come into it so they pay 20% in the morning. Does the hotel have that kind of an arrangement? They have not come in for a while. So the question I have with that deal, so Gifford says in that deal right now, how does that affect their ability to pay police taxes because they're running, they're on that deal? Has that affected it at all? They still have to pay a full load of police taxes. That that might be incumbent upon them or do they get that sort of deal? I don't know if their agreement is for an amount or a percentage. It's a percentage. So it would float at least with whatever the, for the police taxes is a whole separate tax, right? It's a separate tax now. You know, you're taxed on your property tax and then you have a separate police tax so a police tax is a separate tax from property tax at present in the district. Expanding in the district would still make it a separate tax for policing. So that's just kind of a thought board or are you gonna see it a select board meeting Gifford saying, hey, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, we didn't sign up for this. But I think what we would have to do is have somebody look at that because I believe what we classified as is municipal taxes, so the town level. So you can't exempt them from the state tax portion. So the state portion of your property taxes, we don't have anything. So we're only talking about the portion of his town. And I think it says that their municipal tax will be X percent of what's due. So the first, I think it's pretty close to LED dynamics even. So you have five years to wave it and then you... Gradually go up. Gradually go up. Tax stabilization. You're 10, they're paying the full fee. Basically. All right, but for purposes of actually getting each suffrage tonight, where are we going right now without getting into the weeds of who's doing what? Well, I guess we need to let Trevor know where we think the red line on the feet are on. So it would be good. I would suggest property lines. Property lines of where? Of the properties that border, 66 and... The southern part, that's 12. Yeah, that's what we're gonna do. So that would include that weird... Right, so that if somebody owns a 20 acre parcel that butts up against 66, but they're on the back 10 acres and they have an emergence, I mean. Right, right. Most of those right now seem to not have, so the ones that kind of extend back don't have anything on them. Okay. So it's a practical matter. I don't think we'll run into that. So they're going to be 66 and 12? No, but they're gonna be taxed on that, though. All properties are butting those two rows. You know, if their house is, say, 50 yards off of those 66, but they own... That's what that is, yeah. You know, 120 acres in the back of it, and they're gonna be taxed based upon 120 acres in their house. There we go. If there's no one back there, to all points or a field or whatever it might be. You know, so it puts a pretty good burden on them. That does get the folks on... So this road that kind of comes up falls along here, some of these properties, because they butt on the back edge. There are times you could be going around Sunset, or whatever this is called right here. What would it look like with Joe's idea going from the center of the road? See those on the Sunset you come up here? There's a few houses that would be in the district now because of this front inch. But the structures are sort of off, or these wouldn't be. I mean, if you drew a corridor, yeah, you just would kind of come up straight line, and it would be that percentage of value along the way. But then they're gonna say, well, my land's there, but there's nothing that takes place there. That's just the, you're right, they have Steep Bank and whatnot, so I gotta pay into the police budget, but I'm not gonna get any service. So, you know, we're gonna get it both ways. We're gonna get the one that says... Yep, you get service every time we drive into town. You get service. Right, but I'm just saying, like, when we look at how we draw these, we're gonna go a certain, those folks are gonna be like, well, why did you do that? I'm not in it. My house is over here. I've got this, so you're kind of in a catch-22. Somebody's gonna bitch no matter what. I'm not gonna get around that, but like, how do we get it to what makes the most sense and provides the best service? Yeah, it makes the most sense, provides the best service. Still... So we're gonna... I think we should increase the $100,000. Which is what I was thinking, you know? And then eliminate the Route 66 section. Yeah, then you don't have to. You just increase the outside district wine contribution. Right. But then you've got the entire out of the district. The entire town is then paying for the service to these entities that are driving the service. And so, a lot of your stuff is coming in and you're going to Shaw's, and that plaza ought to be paying into the district directly and helping put the bill for that. Versus it going into a general fund expense. Okay, so we're gonna go down 66 and 12, the properties that have bought it, all of it. Okay, now let me just, I'm good with all I got. So I just, we can draw whatever you want, so I'm going up 66 again to around the interchange for all the way up. All the way up. To the intersection to get to VTC. Up to the intersection. And then down 12, still all the way to being bill. We're town line and back. All the way to the town line, yep. So, let me just... I hope we go to the town line. You have no place to turn around, but I bet you can figure it out. Turn back, turn back up to that. Well, as you know, so he's going to be getting gimmick-tight turns. All right. We'll turn it back up. It starts, you go. We'll turn it back up to training. Go up to the end, up to where ployage door is. Up to the intersection, yeah. Yeah. So I keep this corridor, lose a little window or nub. Well, no, I think you... You gotta keep that. You gotta keep that. I mean, place. Actually, just keep this map. I think the upper part, yeah. All right. I can do that. So if we go with a modified police district, this is it. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. If we're putting the whole picture together, though we have these budgets, they don't include vehicle needs, and they also don't include space needs, right? So we get up into a townwide department and need space for 10 people. We're out. Yeah. I don't even know that if, I don't know, the modified were pushing it, right? Can we just be consistent with what we're calling? We call it an expanded police district, or modified police district? I've been calling it modified, but if you want to call it... I think we should just call it one thing. Right? Because... Modified makes it a little easier to swallow. If we call it modified... As opposed to expanded. Yep. That's a good word, special. Yeah. Modified. Are we okay with that? Sure. Modified. Back in every quarter, days. Yeah. Modified, right? Okay, that's it. Modified. Modified. So if we look at the, some modified, you're at eight. Yeah. Employees, you're... What could you have? Yes. We're looking into bunk desks, so. Those desks. Well, they aren't all onto me at the same time, which is true, but... Which is still like I'm gonna have some speed. Yeah, still like I won't be able to... Okay. This one goes with the garage. Yeah, so I... I'll be telling her that tomorrow. I would think with that one, we're gonna have to be ready to answer the kind of, what does that look like? And are we gonna need to be doing some remodeling to the building? Shield. In the town vibe, we're definitely gonna have to be looking at a different facility. Is there any other space in that building? Anywhere up top, besides your... No, the historic, those are upstairs. Nothing is empty. No. No. Yeah, I'm gonna say this is really the only, on account of four space. Well, we have some at the fire station. I was gonna say, what's in the fire station? We do, we have some offices there and some spaces on account of four. It may not go over very well, but... That's where we're going. Yeah, that's right. The whole enclosure, thanks. All right, all right. Don't get in my chair. You know, the other thing though, I don't know if anybody else's ears went up. Because you probably don't think as far as TBS is I do, but I heard about a lot of empty space at VTC. I know, right? Yeah, some houses. I was like, ooh, yeah, I hate. That's your outpost. That's my outpost. There you go. There you go. There goes your expansion. I heard some employees that might be available and I heard some of them. Yeah. And they wonder why I'd be in vitamin. Another thing I asked them about, the VTC owns that property that's above Kingland. Right, they own the old side test lab there. And that other building was supposed to be some kind of a help start up. No, it's old. Well, they don't own any of that anymore. Oh, I didn't know that. Can't tell if it was us or we got a D-Care. And did you guys have a D-Care and a lore building and... You got some roles. We'll call it the Modify. That would be, I guess it's owned by this Modify at VTC. Okay, so. Yeah, that's okay. Are we seeing as we space that industrial part just a moment? Just a moment. You too, over the last. Yeah. So, I think we'll be, what we do need to do is look at setting up the public. Then you might get a cheat deal in the entire state of the public. And talk about where we want that to be. There was some requests that we meet outside of the district. Well. Which we hear VTC has a lot of space. Yeah, right. VTC. Would we have like a moderator, like person or are we the moderator how does that look? It's a good question. You know, the thing I've been to a lot of really bad open forums where people aren't given the time limit and they go off on those things that they just want to talk about. Like the water. Maybe it ought to be moderated by someone that's not on this committee. That's what I mean. Yeah. Don't we have a town moderator? Yeah, Kelly. But I think, right, right. But I think it happens after all the information on the big screen. It might not be helpful. Right, you have to show the three districts on the big screen. You got to show the proposed budgets on the big screen. And you got to also show the anticipated tax crossing on the big screen. So someone's got to be able to explain that. I wouldn't suggest that the moderator can. Let's start with a location and kind of when we want to do it. And then who we want to, we'll figure out who should be moderating it. And then what information we want to be able to present. So looking at the feedback, how long, how much advance notice should we have out there? Some of the stuff we ought to at least give people the final drafts to be able to digest a little bit before they come into it. I think you're going to also need, yeah. I mean, some of these times that the deadline comes that first full week of November. So it might be on the ninth. We're asking the board for more time. I kind of gave them a heads up. Yeah, so they know that's coming. And then the week after would be good because you've got a meeting on the seventh. So we get to fine tune everything. We get to start doing the notice stuff now. Make sure everything's ready coming out of the seventh and that people have say at least a week to see the stuff that we've started warning, noticing, publicizing. Then you got Thanksgiving. So we open the week at the 13th? I think that's our week. It's the first week of deer season. That's what we do. At least that's what I do and I share folks do. And the next week is Thanksgiving. So I think you have to have it to first week of December. And I think it's also realistic to get it out there. Are you going to put something in the newspaper? What's wrong with the week of November 27th? I mean, again, first week of December, that's right after Thanksgiving, right? So, you know, so first week of December. No, first week of December is December 4th. The next week of the week is the 9th, right? Yeah, that's right after Thanksgiving, that's one. I mean, I don't share with that on this thing. The 9th is of Thursday. The select board meeting is the 9th. 7th. The 7th was that next meeting. The 7th is here. The 9th is the select board. Oh, right. I meant the 7th. Our next meeting is the 7th. That's correct. Right, okay. So is your thought then on the 7th? We clean everything up. It's nice and neat. It's clean. Everybody understands it. And then that's when it goes out. And then we get out and set a date and a location. And then we look at who we want to be a moderator. I think the week of the 27th, that would give people more than two weeks. Yeah. More than two weeks. Do you think that's enough time? I think it is. The only challenge comes on the back end when we think about town meeting, because it's not March for that, it's end of January. So we start to compress a little bit up against the board's decision making time frame. So it's not something to be aware of. Have you have a select board meeting the week of the 27th? Is that? No, the 9th and then the 14th. Okay. Although we're gonna have more meetings, right? In that time, because budget time, we meet more often. Right. So they'll have enough time. I think the select board's also gonna have to have their forms to talk to the people about it as well. As a select board, it's actually gonna be putting it in front of the people. Well, they should be at the meeting when this is all presented. Maybe so, but now you change in a budget. Possibly. So if we have something that we do on the 27th, then did somebody say they thought it was important to hold the meeting outside of the district? I did. I don't think it's a bad idea. I mean, because you're a chandler for some place up at BTC, like Judd Jim or whatever, right? Is there some other? I think if high school, there's some space there, as you can tell. BTC's a pretty popular, big location as it can hold a pretty good-sized crowd, if in fact you even have a big-sized crowd, but has the opportunity for that. I'll tell you, we put our budget together and we have nobody come for the public hearing. Yeah, right. They all scream and holler after the quote, but nobody shows up till the night. Maybe even the Red School zone, I don't know. Oh, the Red School, that's right, yep. If you do, well, I used to go to the budget meeting, but the problem was that no changes could be made. But at that point, BTC is saying to the people up there, we want you to come. I think that's important. I'd like to see it advertised on newspaper and that we want you to come. I'd like to see it advertised on FPF and whatever, mediums are out there. Can you figure out which day of the week is okay that week, but then, should we stick to our Tuesdays? Oh, do it on the 28th? Yeah. Well, do you think it's important to have one last meeting with all of us before we actually- We're going to, on the 7th. On the 7th. In two weeks, that'll give time to get everything cleaned up, get a kind of final word and data and talk about it in a more, more, it'll be available in the next two weeks after that, so. Yeah. So are we looking at November 28th? Yeah, sure. And we have learned that it's, if you're doing a public hearing, you want people to have time to get home and whatnot. So six or- Six. Probably, I would say, right? That gives commute times and- I think it's safe this way. All right, and who do we want to- What about Peter now, and see for somebody who could moderate it? You should tell him about it later. Yeah. I mean, he hasn't had any stick in the game, or anything. I don't recognize the name, so. He would be good. You should go while trying for the time. He'd be really good. I think Peter would be good. Yeah, that's right. I think he'd do right too. He's a good tire. Yeah. I do know him very well. Hold on a minute. He's a fan of that. I mean, he used to be the town moderator. Yeah, I've got the experience, right? Yeah. It's been a lot of work. Another one I was thinking of was Randy Gardner. He just is a good public speaker. He's got a chance to write now, I think. I don't know what he does, so. Anymore. Okay. Trevor, would you look for a location? Yeah, yeah. I try to find something out to Peter. Can you reach out to Peter? I can. Okay. Okay. Let's see if Peter, do we have an alternate? Yeah, let's have America and any other games. Rose. Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Oh, that's funny. That's a hard thought, sir. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Outside of the box. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Terry, I'll come up with something. I'll hope Peter's available. He's not a... Could you send us the advertisement for it? I don't know. Just send us, just, just, just to see what I'm gonna advertise and we can go out there and show you. Yeah, yeah, I want to be, pull it all together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great, thank you. Maybe we could look at somebody that's not here. Okay. I was just thinking... I was just thinking... Just wait till we get back. And the solution... You know, like who's my doctor? I'm a lot of reader or, you know, something like that. Jason, I don't know if you have a job. Sometimes I don't hear. Right. It's a great job. You have to pull the meetings on all kinds of permits and projects I'm on. We're good. It's such a nice job. We are. It's a great job. He made me cry, man. All right, so... It's getting pretty close, isn't it? What's going on, what's going on, anything? Process requirements, the benchmarks. I think they're pretty good with those. Some of the stuff you can talk about next time to the final report or once we get back together after the public forum now that we're sort of sitting and I might be the time to talk final report. I'm starting to put something together for you just to block the spaces out. So, you know, introduction, tasks, moves involved, just do those pieces and then... So do we want to, if we do the hearing on the 28th, then we'll come back together on the fifth and talk about it. Yeah, that's a good idea. And try to finalize what goes to the select board. Do you need help with anything? Are you good? Oh yeah, there's a long list of stuff we need help that didn't sound like it was limited to this committee, was it? I'm going to make you cocktails. You do that and I'll write the report while I make it and we start graded, I don't know where to land, man. All right. Thank you for all your work and thank you for getting us everything you did. Yeah. I'm chocolate. More than that, man. One of the things that we got to think about is in that, once we come back from the whole thing, how this rolls out when we will be making a recommendation, but also like how it goes about. Do we want to see it voted separate? Do we want it as a separate budget line item? You know, one of the risks and what not is, I don't think we want to put this in the regular budget, you know, if it goes town wide, we don't want to put it in the regular budget because we risk the entire budget being voted down. Stephanie's unmuted herself. Do you want to say something, Stephanie? Good job. Okay, great. All right, now she's muted. Perfect. You know, just something to think about is the logistics side of it. Like what is the risk? By the time, if it votes down, if it votes down the entire town budget, by the time we put it back together and put it back out, you're now, in that April of May, you're getting pretty close to the start of the year. So, you know, in my select board head, I'm thinking I don't want to risk employee salaries and functions and what not. That's a good one. So much, and you know, is this become a separate little slip of paper? Probably need to have some level of a strategy conversation in that meeting. Well, I move that we adjourn the meeting. Yeah. That's a non-debatable motion. So you win.