 So maybe first of all, could you tell me why exactly is there need for such a guide because I mean there is a lot of Regulation going on in the field isn't there? Yeah, thanks. I think maybe since 2010 when this big tech clash started across Europe There's been more growing awareness that platform economy needs to do better than it has done And I think there's now widespread kind of like criticism and awareness that especially the big platforms, you know Google Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, so Gaffam that their business model leads to problematic outcomes And I think this has led almost to a spiritual crisis of platform capitalism That you know if you talk to young people to talk to students for instance at our Institute I know these these platforms now have a very bad reputation and you know people users try to avoid them So I think there's a wide recognition that something is wrong with platform capitalism as you mentioned regulation has started to really Be strengthened at the European level and at national levels But I think what we're lacking from the debate is an understanding of what platforms can actually do to do better And what the alternatives are that are out there And so this is where the strategic guide is supposed to come in it's supposed to show that Platforms aren't inherently and not necessarily bad corporate actors that there are platform This is small that can lead to more favorable outcomes for societies Yeah, the regulation is important and it's happening and it's going to happen even more and Regulation can set the boundaries the legal Boundaries within which you do platform business, but then platform companies still have to figure out what it is What is their mission? What is that they're trying to do in the world? It used to be the case that platform companies and internet companies more generally were supposed to be changing the world for the better And they have this clear mission and drive and it was helping them recruit smart young people And it was start helping them to win over consumers and and suppliers and now we're at a almost an opposite Point where the societal debate is about how do we deal with this massive threat of platform companies and regulation can Mitigate the problems and set the kind of boundaries But regulation can sort of do the business for the platforms and figure out if if there is a future for platforms that is constructive and socially Beneficial then what is that going to be and I think that the guide is going to by highlighting some Examples from a lot of platform companies that actually exist out there There are not that the dominant ones by highlighting some of those models. I think it's going to provide some guidance Okay, so let's maybe go right into the guide How exactly is it build up on the high level the guide is divided into five different domains in each of these domains We first present the dominant model what it is that these big Platform giant companies are doing in these areas areas like, you know, their responsibility or lack the lack of responsibility towards the users of the platform Their responsibility towards the wider society and environment and so on so in each of the domains We explain what is basically the dominant model that these giants are doing and then we outline a spectrum of alternative models And these alternative models when I say spectrum, I mean a spectrum basically starting from the most commercially viable easiest to implement in the current Economic and business environment all the way to the most radical Ideas which are, you know, maybe not business viable for a venture capital funded startup that's seeking Massive growth, but that are actually being used and operated today by platform cooperatives and other platform organizations that have the ideology and the sort of Responsibility More at the center of their business. We try to highlight that there's no heroes and villains here, right? There's a spectrum of possibilities that are alternative to the dominant model and Depending on the market position of the company depending on the resources of the company You can do more you can do you can do less and we show that there's examples of basically idealism Driven companies that just you know want to do better and that's their that's their primary goal That's their primary reason for existence often. These are platform cooperatives the entire platform Co-operative is a movement is inspired by that idea We have to we have to invent platform capitalism that is more sustainable, but it doesn't have to be that You know radical this can also be regular business is trying to make money But implementing a few small steps that can go a long way to improve conditions across all of these five domains People have been saying a lot of these things before so many academics have drawn attention to the problems of the dominant platform business model basically and many academics policymakers Activists have proposed alternatives and what we've done basically in this guide is first of all to sum up To summarize a lot of the discussion as we see it put some structure into it divided into five different domains distinguished between the dominant model and the alternatives and very importantly present examples and cases of real European platform companies that are actually following some of these alternative strategies So they're not just wishes and principles, but something that is being Executed on the marketplace at this very moment and another thing that we're doing is we're Looking across all of the different sectors of platform business from e-commerce and the gig economy to Social media and so so we think that there are at a certain level of abstraction There are certain Strategies both problematic dominant ones as well as certain alternative ones that are essentially Common to more or less all of the platform companies Okay, that's interesting. So maybe we could go into the domains themselves The first one Nikolas is responsibility towards active users. Maybe you could tell me what you know Illustrate what you mean when you say spectrum the domain that is above responsibility for active users So these are the people the firms that actually contribute value through the platform to the platform To me that one is core to the entire Guide because platforms are gatekeepers right there in the middle of the market basically setting the terms for both sides of the market and the dominant model here is to basically skim off for the platform itself as much of the value as possible while offloading the risk and the cost to the to the to the to the active users and often it's you know, very good They creates a lot of convenience for one side of the market. So let's say in e-commerce While it creates very challenging conditions for the other side of the market say suppliers and an e-commerce that have to Adhere to certain terms that have to carry the risk of product development. So this is the dominant model What can alternatives do? What are the strategies that we found? So linking it back again to the spectrum I think the least that should be done is make this cost and risk Transparent to both sides of the market. So to use geek work as an example because there it's very clear Couriers that deliver food from restaurants. They're often employed as freelancers, right? Not as full employees now that comes with the risk for their social protection for their health insurance What if they have an accident that comes with risk for their pension in the long run it don't accumulate entitlements, right? So we say that the least that platforms can then do is make these geek workers these couriers aware of these risks in the long run and then They can make decisions about how they want to mitigate this risk more, you know autonomously And if you wanted to go more extreme, which you know as mentioned, it's maybe not viable for a VC funded company you could Redistribute the value directly to the the active users. So this often happens when there are cooperatives or collectives Let's stay in the gig worker and the delivery platform example. So there are collectives of couriers that basically run the platforms themselves and then obviously the value that they create through the platform they redistribute to the couriers Directly, maybe we could move on to the second domain because when I read that wider societal and environmental Impacts that's very broad, isn't it? How do you tackle that then in within the idea of presenting a spectrum and we wanted to highlight that like any Business platform companies also have to be aware of their wider impacts on the environment and society So, you know at the outset, that's the same for any company. You have an ecological footprint You have certain externalities as economists would call it that where you have effects on on the world around you But we also want to highlight in this domain that platforms have Influenced into these things in particular ways because the dominant model is based on scaling as fast as possible and also it's based on Using existing infrastructures. So these are roads and bridges, but also digital infrastructures like credit cards payment infrastructures It's had logistics infrastructures So the dominant platforms really make use of these established structures while not taking on any of the cost You know an e-commerce is the best example packages are shipped often things are returned and then destroyed Because that's more cost efficient than to recycle or repurpose those articles And so then on the alternative side, we show that platforms through their, you know network effect based model also have an opportunity to Do to do quite a lot of good and minimizing these cost and helping the actors that depend and work through the platform To do better. So here the best examples may be delivery platforms that then incentivize and encourage Restaurants to use less packaging or to do use more ecologically friendly packaging to also optimize the delivery routes So here then the platform can have an influence on the suppliers to do things in more ecologically sustainable way one area where this is really visible is taxation So the dominant model and the conventional wisdom in businesses that businesses will do Whatever is legally permissible really pushed the boundaries of what is legally permissible to minimize Their taxation and not really be really proactive about paying taxes but in some of the European platform businesses what we see is that they are actually working together with in some countries with tax agencies to try to make for instance the taxation of gig work as transparent and as Efficient as possible so that it's both for the end users for the gig workers. It's It's convenient. It's Zero administrative Overhead and also from society's perspective It's certain that there's no tax avoidance or evasion going on So let's move on to the third domain algorithmic management of content products and stakeholders That is very dense. Could you tell me something about that? Basically in any platform, you know, whether it's e-commerce or social media Or or delivery or something the platform is making matches between One side of the market and the other side of the market And in practice that can happen for instance by through ranking search results So you're searching for something and you get search results in some order Now the order in which you get those search results Is not Obvious it's determined by an algorithm and something goes into that algorithm to determine how it works and Here a platform companies can basically they can do a lot of good But they can also do a lot of nasty things and when I say nasty things one of the things that they can do is Self-preferencing right so if you're an e-commerce platform or an app store You ensure that your own products always show up at the top of the list Regardless of how relevant they are to what the consumer is actually looking for and so that's obviously not good business Well, it's good business perhaps in the shorter run if you want to be a giant extractive Platform company, but it's not responsible and therefore we think not really a sustainable way To run a large part of the economy In the long run and I think it becomes apparent when you look at these and look at this from the end user expected Right with the perspective we all have a familiar with e-commerce platforms and so forth But even from the other side of the market, so if I'm a driver on a ride sharing app like which Customers that are looking for rides will be shown to me What information will I be presented with about my peers right and so forth? So it's basically the management of information through through algorithms and this is an area where the regulator is now Pushing up the minimum requirements, right? So we've got the Digital Services Act and Digital Markets Act coming through EU and basically increase The requirements for these large platform companies to actually provide that kind of recourse provide some of that transparency, but also the ability for users to question the Outcomes of the decisions the algorithmic decisions and that are being made I think the notion of more democratic is important here more democratic more participatory because at least the dominant platforms They have become kind of the rule makers almost like government like rule makers But if they are the rule makers of markets Then there needs to be ways for them to be held accountable Or at least make the decisions transparent that we understand how these decisions come about and I think this is the idea behind this domain Okay, so democratization is good keyword. I feel to lead on to the next domains as Nicholas mentioned Platform companies have become these big rule makers now at least the giant companies and we have this idea at least in Democratic societies that those who have power those who rule should be held accountable in one way or the other and basically the Domains four and five of our of our guide Relate to that. So the fourth domain, which is interoperability standards and data sharing that gets at the problem of accountability from the perspective of Allowing people to vote with their feet so the dominant model is that these platform giants are essentially trying to make it as hard as possible for people to leave the platform by Constructing these walled gardens by Not using standards By essentially just making it very difficult to interoperate with other services I think domain four is also a good example of intersections between the different domains I mean we try to divide different domains for for clarity because they're different aspects of the Alternative business models that platforms have to consider but there are certainly intersections So for instance this notion of data sharing there's a lot of potential I think therefore for alternative models one is the sharing of data with competitors Yes, but also with the users themselves, right? Can you give users more insight on the their behavior online? There are opportunities on the platform. So for instance, if you're a business on e-commerce platform, could you be provided with detailed? information and data about which consumers where Like your products and what is what is behind that then tell me about the last domain the fifth domain is more about Allowing the users of the platforms directly to influence how the platform is being managed and This might be necessary in many cases where Because of network effects for instance, you're never going to have a situation where multiple small platforms are competing for users on a platform and Competition works as an effective way of Reducing the power of the platform companies and Holding them to account Sometimes this is just not going to happen because of network effects and various other reasons And so then the fifth domain asked well how what ways are there for people to get directly involved in Managing that platform if it's not going to be possible for them to switch to an alternative if they don't like it, right and the dominant model essentially is to run the platform as a corporate fiefdom as You know not give the users any sort of voice or or even transparency into how decision making is Happening inside the platform company and In so far as as user voice is Taken into account or heard it's through the paradigm of customer service and And then marketing I think alternative models would you know either? Acknowledge that and then create Accountability and say for other voices For instance through corporate boards that then represent other stakeholders or they would have a completely different founding process to begin with So, you know, of course, we have to mention platform cooperatives here where the entire idea is kind of collective of users Create a platform business that then works for all users and where the value is shared and where decisions are made together Of course, it also be forms of representation on every individual user can carry every single decision But then already there's by definition a democratic governance model where all the users themselves make the decisions here We need to address the European angle and maybe also since so much thought went into it I would like to ask you about your motivation to come up with this guide in the first place and and What lent to it so the European angle in all of this is well first of all the European Union really is recognized as a as a sort of pioneer and trendsetter in some ways in digital regulation and he really is pushing forward now with digital services act and digital markets act and so on and that is really creating an occasion for Platform businesses to reconsider what it is that they're all about The other thing is that in Europe, we do have traditions everywhere in the world. There are different kinds of traditions of participatory governance and democracy and so on but we have particular forms in Europe including in business co-determination and the social partnership, which means bargaining and and and and agreements between employer side And worker side on the one hand, so we have these sort of traditions of you could even say social social democracy and so the question is can the platform economy somehow evolve to Incorporate some of these principles or Evolve in such a way that becomes compatible with these European institutions so that it doesn't always have to exist in sort of conflict Where the regulator has to come always and say stop. Don't do that, but that it could in fact become part of the established European political economy and I think you know what you alluded to too earlier, you know the platforms are Don't want to be European platforms don't want to be associated with the big Transnational platform, so they are very deliberately and actively trying to curate and create a European identity frame themselves as European rather than American or Chinese Actors, which then allows them to look better towards the end users, but also towards recruits You know, it's become a problem that people don't want to work at a platform company anymore because it's somehow frowned upon so really there is a you know across the continent Platform organizations developing and very much emphasizing their European identity so if there is a widespread awareness of all this and also a willingness to balance Some of the more problematic tendencies out What are your hopes for this guide and How would you like Platform businesses to respond to it and engage with it. I think we try to set a Strategic guide here to be basically concrete now We don't offer an off-the-shelf Be guide to how to run your platform business But we provide a lot of examples that are very concrete and that are also in most cases Valuable so I think the first step to us will be the other Platform businesses read this guy and see what others have done to even you know begin to understand the alternatives that are already out there that are already Implemented because I think in the public discourse in the policy discourse when we think of platforms We often think of the big ones to Google's to Amazon's but even the platforms themselves and the stakeholders often Troubled to have trouble to get out of this mindset That they have to somehow copy the model of the big ones and compete with them on on their terms And this should hopefully show to them alternatives are available. They're viable They may not make you the winner that takes it all But they will help you to be sustainable also in the long run including for your stakeholders