 Neil Carvald is the Managing Director of the European Marine Energy Centre in the Orkneys, the world's leading test facility for wave and tidal energy converters. I think the Centre won the 2016 Blue Economy Business Award. He's been the director since 2005, has seen it grow from an organisation with three people to one with 47 people today. His background, I think in civil engineering, seems to me that there must be a civil engineering dimension to maintaining these devices out there in the way, in the climate, which can provide all this energy. I think Neil, if you will talk to us, we'd be delighted to hear you. Thank you very much indeed. I'm going to stand so I work better on my feet and also I'm conscious that you'll be trying to look through my head as well. I'll come over this side out of the way. So thank you very much indeed for the opportunity to talk to you today, to just try and explain a little bit about what's going on with marine energy and I really did want to reinforce this point. I think it's a massive opportunity, particularly for Ireland, because you've got ten times your land area for your sea area. There is a huge piece of real estate out there which in the two has been inaccessible, but that's the piece that we can really find a way to access. Say something applies in Scotland as well, but I just really wanted to talk you through some things that are going on. I'm very happy to answer questions. But for a bit of context really about me and why this stuff is really important. I was born in 1959 and when I was born we had about 315 parts per million CO2 in the atmosphere. Yesterday it was 410 parts per million. So it's got like 95-ish parts per million in my 60 and a bit years so far. And so we have a significant problem which we know about, but the point is this drives me and it drives the staff and drives the people. We have to do something about this because in the same period we've also doubled the population of the planet and increased our oil consumption fivefold. And the point is we need a better plan because this one is really not working and we're going to have to do something else. So except if we're going to do something else, what is it that we can actually do? What is it that we really want to do? So part of this really is about why even marine energy is worth looking at. And the point is, interested as brought up over lunch, is that we call it Planet Earth, which is a planet water, two thirds of the surface of the planet are covered in water. And at last we are starting to recognise that that is actually a resource and a place in which we need to operate continuously. Marine energy itself is a huge new energy opportunity. We've talked about it for years. In fact I've come across a scheme dating back around the 20 years where people were looking at trying to extract energy often from the rise and fall of tides. And indeed there's a mill just outside of Salampton, which has got Roman foundations from it. So we have been at this for a little while but we've never really made a significant jump to make this absolutely work. But we do know that these resources by definition are in coastal and therefore peripheral areas and therefore areas that are often economically challenged and are often in desperate need of other forms of employment as other traditional industries change. We know as well that the waters, we do have sovereignty over our waters and so that gives us an opportunity of an indigenous energy source where we don't have to project force elsewhere to go and get energy we can harvest it ourselves locally. And we also know that it is a properly green technology. It is a technology that is carbon free once you've made the machines and as we decarbonise the rest of the economy, the manufacture of the machines can be green. But all together it really fits properly into the right narrative and believe it or not it is actually really popular. There is a survey that's done by the UK government. I run it called the Wave Survey. It's not about wave energy, it's about energy as a whole. And they do it every quarter and renewables get a popularity rating in the mid-70s to 80% mark. Wave and tidal are in the mid-70s. Things like fracking, which governments have been pushing, low 30s and nuclear is down there as well. So the point is, it's a technology which we pick up who are interested in and people want to move forward. So we think this fits really well. If you're trying to do the right things, it's green and it's quite popular. So you sort of feel like you're at the top of a bobsleigh run. You've just got to push and get on it because it's going to go as opposed to you're trying to push this thing uphill in an impossible way. So I was also intrigued by the fact that this is now becoming part of the popular discussion that went on and seeing the climate awareness thing on the TV last night was quite amazing sitting down in my hotel room. Oh wow, on OTE. So I think there is a movement of foot and really this is a chance to actually move with this while we do have an opportunity. So the resource itself, where is the resource? Well, I usually use this craft to show where the resource is in UK waters and at this point, jokingly, point out that Ireland acts like a very nice breakwater for the middle of the UK. But the point is in terms of your energy resource, this is wave energy resource. The waves pound energy into the West Coast and these contours are organised in kilowatts per linear metre of wave and it's showing this green area 50 kilowatts per linear metre of wave some distance offshore and indeed touching the shore. You've got a huge energy resource that's there. The challenge from an engineering sense is resisting and making the most of it. It's not a case of can you harvest the energies, can you be there tomorrow to harvest it again because today can be quite threatening. So that's going to be one of the technical challenges that we've really got to work through together and make sure that we have dealt with this technology. It doesn't where we are, by the way, those of you who don't know where Albany is, we're at 59 degrees north of the north coast of mainland Scotland, about 22,000 people and we are an area where the test centre is decidedly set up because we are just on a short extension cable off the top of the end of our national grid. So electricity generated in our site does flow into the sites. I'll talk to you a little bit about what actually happened and why we've set the test site up and what we've been doing with it to lead into that piece. So the test centre itself was actually set up with public funding in various tranches, dating back to 2003. We built a wave site first of all and then we built a tidal site and extended both and we've grown and grown and grown. We don't get any grant money, we don't get any central government money. Now what we run on providing services to developers to bring their machines along and plug them onto the infrastructure that's publicly provided. We're a not-for-profit company and we're also an independent test laboratory. So the idea was always if we could tell people that this machine did that and that machine did this, that somebody, an investor, would want to look at both of those reports and go, I'll invest in that one. So we've always set out to try and make sure that we're making this something that is actually investable. And our vision is trying to find a way to build a wider energy system. I'll talk more about the energy system right at the last minute because that is becoming increasingly important rather than just being a single linear partition technology. There are edges which start to bleed into other things. But our drive is very much to make sure we do this as quickly, as cheaply and as safely as possible. We need to get this industry up and going and a test centre is the easiest way to get this started. We've decided to build EMEK that allowed us to put in the infrastructure which helps people bring their machines and get them installed as quickly, as cheaply and as safely as is humanly possible. And over the 15 or so years we've now been running with these sites. We've had a number of machines here on each of these different locations. The left hand one is dealing with waves, the right hand one is dealing with tides and basically they've got the same fundamental process which is we run out of the sea, there's a substation on the shore, there's instrumentation on the shore, there's instrumentation at sea and we compare the amount of energy that we're seeing in the water with what we're seeing in terms of the electricity that's landed on the shore and that allows us to attest to how good these machines are at turning water into electricity, pretty much. Say pretty much because some people don't want to make electricity, they want to make desalinated water that was the model. It does a scale for a minute. This is our tidal site of Ordening. This is the fall of Ornes, this site. It's about two kilometers across. Half a billion tons of seawater an hour go through there. So you've got to be technically prepared to go out and try and do battle with that. You really have got to be ready because if you turn your back on it it'll kill you. So you've really, really got to be technically ready. This is one of the challenges that these technologies don't work necessarily at small scale. You've got to commit and go. This is a challenge of financing. It's a challenge for engineering. We'll talk more about some of the numbers later if you like. That's the infrastructure. That's what we spent most of the money on putting this stuff in the sea. Each of these cables, if that's thick as my arm, most of them will allow us to land megawatts of electricity onto the beach. So that's just some rough scale. The effort that's gone in together has actually meant that we've done quite a lot of work and that we've had 31 devices, 20 different companies from 11 different countries coming and testing machines with us. Together they've started now to land proper industrial quantities of electricity on the beach. Some of these machines have not all of them. Some of them have failed, some of them have gone away, some of them people have decided they want to do different things. But overall, we've started to see some stuff really happen. The point is what we do is we take people through a bit of a learning journey because there's no point at all having a machine if you don't know how to make everything work. There are five lessons that we say here. You need to know that you can install this machine. Will it survive? Will you actually maintain it and will it operate in an energy system? Those lessons have to be learned and they have to be learned in that order. You'll never know if it survives if you couldn't install it. You'll never know if it was reliable if it didn't survive. You have to learn those lessons in that order. Sometimes you have to go back and learn it again and eventually you progress. But once you've gone through that one you've then got a position where you know whether it is cost-effective. It's investable. And that's the journey that everybody has to go on. And everybody likes to start here because they know that you install it because it can. And then you get out into a boat and then find out that you can't lift it the way you think or whatever. So this is a constant journey that people have to go on. And it is difficult because until people really know what they're doing it is not a proper product. It's an idea. And the reason you go around this loop time and time again is that it's about practice. And practice makes cheaper. Not as you approach perfect but cheaper. You have to practice to get better and better. And that's exactly what we do as a species. We take an idea, we do it once, we do it again, we do it again and we get better and better and better. And that is why the cost of things tends to come down because you spot a better way of doing it or you have a better idea and on it goes. And that's how it works. And that's not just us, that's all technologies. And this is a graph that shows some power generation technologies. And the graph effectively shows cost on the left-hand side and the bottom is deployed as a logarithmic scale. So this is the cost of deploying a technology at 100 megawatts installed, 1000, so that's a gigawatt installed, up to 10 terawatts installed. And basically these learning curves are pretty standard. There's the same sort of slope on most of them and basically what it comes down to is the more often you do it the better you get. Now for marine energy, we haven't carried 100 megawatts in the water at all yet. We're probably in the tens, maybe 15 or so. So we're not even on this graph. But that's the graph that you've got to get to. That's how you've got to drive this down. And the only way you drive this down is by practice. And you can see that a lot of these technologies enter at quite high prices. Two and a half thousand was that. Euros per kilowatt. These are big money. Some of these machines have not even started there because there's some for example, gas, this one, gas combined cycle turbines was basically a jet engine in a box. So we started in aviation, then went to ships and then stuck them in a box and put a generator on the end of them. These technologies don't necessarily start here. That's just when they become economic at some point. So you have to recognize that technology has got to go through that journey and unfortunately the only way to do that is repetition. And that's not something that people like to hear but that's unfortunately how this needs to work. And the thing is there are we have done this in other things. We have come, we can do remarkable things. We can do huge technical challenges when we really set our mind to it and really want to make a difference. But we have to recognize that that repetition often takes time and just cutting another ribbon on it or just announcing it in another speech does not make it happen. You've actually got to get out there and get wet and do things. So we have to recognize that there is a natural cycle that can go on and what we are really keen to do is to make sure we spin up and doing this as quickly as we can but not in a state that's unsafe either personally or even financially. And that is a difficult balance point to get to. But we have done this other way to technical challenges and I give you some examples of some I think quite remarkable things that have happened. We go from 1903 when the Wright brothers first took off and killed Devil Hills in the States. We see that in the photograph. That was the miracle of the age. 200 people or more had been killed trying to do that before they managed to achieve flight. And they really got the basic technology right of how the air flows over a wing which gives lift and allows something heavier than air to get into the air. That was what they cracked. But they've no way would they have envisaged the A380 coming along. Having a conversation with them about their flight entertainment system really wouldn't be as much of a problem. But you had to go on this journey and make things work. Other amazing things we've done, we imagine take that and stick it in a box. And make that stable. And that's a remarkable thing to do. We've also done incredible things more recently with wind. That's a photograph from Denmark to now in position where offshore wind is really, really getting to a point where the costs are frankly unbelievably low. I can remember being in meetings with people in church and tasked with trying to make offshore wind work and they were saying we're going to get to what happened. We all laughed hollily at it and now we're at 40-45. So the point is we have done serious technical challenges but they didn't go from that to that even one. There are thousands and thousands of machines out there. There are four gigawatts of offshore wind in the waters around the UK at the moment and that's what's led to the price drop that's gone on in practice. So the question is can we turn that into something that actually works as an energy source and the answer I think is probably with some machines. The Palamas machine when that generated into the UK group back in 2004 was the first time people generated from deep water floating wave energy converters. We also have people like say Aquamarine doing remarkable work in shallow water. An excellent piece of kit. Interestingly we can debate what let that down but frankly it was an oil and gas failing that got permeated into some of that Aquamarine. And recently we've also got a wave energy company with Willow who we actually have to see doing work at the moment. But the point is these are technical challenges where we can see a way through. We can do this but we've got to want to do it. You don't accidentally find a way to make wave energy work. You do it through diligence and drive and determination and bloody mindedness and not giving in. And there's all of those things which need to be applied to make it to find a way to market and make this actually happen. And I see a lot of grit that's needed to make this work. What I don't see are problems that we can't overcome. So I thought it would be useful if we just touch on a few bits and pieces of some of the real things that have been going on because I'm an engineer I get excited by stuff. So that's been with me for a minute. But this is a company called Willow who are a Finnish company who have an oscillating wave energy converter. And in fact there's a large weight that rotates and they've been out on the side for over two years and they've survived 18 meter high waves. I estimate we're probably about 9 meters above the ground here. So we'll build waves that would easily wash relevant of this building. But they haven't survived completely because it's sank. So that's actually sitting on the seabed off our site at the moment. And I thought we'd deal with the next one. So they had a problem and were going to restore that machine at some stage. But they have survived. I mean two years out of sea without failure I think it's a non-trivial task. We had Corpout in the water last year it was a Swedish company this machine stands up like a lollipop in the water. That was a new type of wave energy converter and that went very well. They've done some really clever ideas with this machine. And I think they're going to Portugal now for the next round of testing. We've had Open Hydra. We talked about Overlunch. This is a machine that's on our site up in Ortony. It's still there at the moment. But they went from a 6 meter diameter machine and obviously it works by the white bit in the water. I explained that because I had to do that to an energy minister once. We were having a conversation. I thought he's really not got this. Let me get a little bit into the water. So that was a 6 meter diameter machine they built a 10 meter diameter machine they put in the bare funding they then built 16 meter diameter machines at Reno and they put them in France and in the bare funding and on the day they were actually commissioned the rug was pulled out from the company. But that's an interesting piece of equipment. And indeed we're talking over lunch about your son and the spin-outs from Open Hydra and one of the things we should never forget is even though these machines sometimes don't necessarily succeed in themselves the spin-outs they create and then the other jobs that then ripple out from that and then the coalescing of these skills in other ways is of itself valid. Just at last. So Hydra we've been doing work this one has been a particular success a company called Scott Renewables they were they now have renamed themselves Orbital which is really annoying because it says Scott Renewables in the back of the photographs at various places. But they started off with us in the top left corner in 2010 with a scale size machine just proving the concept worked and was stable they then went to a 250 kilowatt machine they went very well last year before they had this SR-2000 a 2 megawatt machine out on site and they're now working on this one which is in the process of being fabricated now. But this one last summer that was doing 7% of Orkney's electricity demand. That's the equipment of one day of fortnight Orkney was running on tidal energy. So this is here. This is answering the question that was posed on the word instead. This is sort of here now. Now what we've got to do is get the reliability of this stuff up. And that's the task. Does this work? Yes. Is it working well enough? No, not yet. Will it work better? Yeah, just keep practicing. This is what drives cost down. It's getting out there and doing this thing. And this is the next generation machine that's coming along. And that should be launched. I think it won't be in this calendar year. It will be in the next calendar year. It will be in the water. And then more recently we've got a Spanish copy of Magalena's. This is a machine being launched in Vigo. This is a list of the blades. They basically stick up to down here. There are two sets of blades on it. And that's out on site at the moment generating the tires. As the tires go past, there are a pair of propellers that turn it up to the directions. So there's stuff going on. This is rated at two maybe once as well. So there's stuff actually happening. There's real stuff going on. One of the interesting things is when you start to innovate, strangely enough, innovative people come and find you. And that's really one of the big things that you've discovered that when you start doing stuff, people sort of sidle up to you going, I don't suppose we could try this, could we? And one of the ones that really goes and buzzed who did come in and talk to us was Microsoft. So Microsoft came and found us. We got an email, I believe it was an email, into the infoatemac.org that the UK said, hello, we're Microsoft. Would you like to work with us? And the immediate thought was, yeah, don't worry about it. But actually, no, we thought, no, there's sufficient real and we checked it and it was. And they wanted, from Redmond California, they wanted to work with us, they wanted to work with us on this, which is an underwater data center. And the point is that they run data centers all around the world. Those data centers, nearly half of the energy that goes into a data center, is cooling the data center. So rather than burn coal, make electricity, send it somewhere, refrigeration plant were made cold to keep the data center cool. And the burning coal making electricity is only one third efficient. They thought why don't we put it somewhere cold? And so by putting it somewhere cold in the ocean, they're able to get the cooling effect, but without necessarily all that complicated mechanical stuff in the middle. And so they came with us and their machine's out on site at the moment. But the thing was, that was great because it was an endorsement of that. People are thinking about different ways of skinning the energy cap problem. Doesn't it matter if I don't like it? I'm trying different ways of trying to make this work. And it's not just about trying to generate energy, it's trying to not use it foolishly as well. So this was quite an interesting thing. It also shows a certain amount of confidence in their machines. It does. It gave us quite a pat on the back that they were comfortable with our processes, that they were willing to put their reputation and that's the biggest logo I think we've seen painted on anything so far. They were happy to get this out there. So anyway, my point is that if you start doing innovation, strangely enough, innovative things tend to happen around you. But the other thing is, it's not just happening with us, and I didn't want you to think it's just a little in place. There are things going on elsewhere. So top left hand corner is some stuff coming out of Shetland, something we know for innovation. Right hand side, there's a Monesto doing stuff in Stranford. Shetland is in Pettman Firth and SME are doing stuff, they're working stuff near Oburn, they've now gone after Canada to do things. But there are things going on around the beast and this is starting to motor. There is activity going on and there are multiple ways of making this stuff work and at the moment we are still exploring the totality of the ecosystem and we'll start to identify partition and niches and find ways to exploit those different pieces. But the point is these are nice glossy photographs of the big stuff that's happening but the brutality is it's hard out there and there is a huge opportunity for the supply chain to get involved at whatever scale is necessary. If I go back to the Wright Brothers piece for a minute it's not just about does this thing work. You look at Airbus, there's a huge range of suppliers in that whole process, from the people who supply the landing lights for the runways to the lemon soap paper napkins and the seat belt clips or whatever it is. There's a huge range of businesses that can get involved in this and that opportunity to mobilise manufacturing of all scales and deliveries really help. So for example the stuff we've got here that's a TV camera covered in barnacles so the anti-fouling of that sort of stuff is going to be critically important. Small scale products. The survey and type of activities we think of the sea. We see it as a flat surface on the bottom. It's varied. There's all the geology that shapes things to work out. Instrument systems. This is an acoustic Doppler current profiler which is sitting in a frame which is actually turned into a very good seaweed sampling system. So this instrumentation is now looking through massive amounts of seaweed. So there are biological interaction things to work out how we're going to make this work. There's some lobster parts wrapped around one of our cables and finally this is a plot. This is the fall of warness. This is our tidal side. This is a plot of vessel movements in one 20 to four hour period at one point. And the point is we're going to need the equivalent of air traffic control from the sea. And that doesn't exist at the moment. So there's a whole range of skills and things that are needed. People will have bright ideas about ways to fill in some of these evolutionary niches which are going to grow up. It's not just have you got a thing that turns and makes electricity. There's an industry to be built here and there's an industry to be done. And the other thing is that we also recognise we don't have the exclusive rights on this. We are very aggressively working with places all around the world. This is just some of the test centres, some of the people with whom we're working at the moment. We run I think with international waters which is the test sites often mentioned here. And we get them together to find ways to share experience and find ways that we can work better together. And we are very determined to make sure that this also joins together and makes sure this all works in one go. Because what we can't afford to do is have wasteful processes. And this is an illustration of a wasteful process I took a photograph of in Japan which is why have you got three different things doing exactly the same things. You get electricity safely out of the wall into your laptop without killing you. What really stay together, join up universal standards, try and make this all work in one go. So we don't all have to have a pocket full of adapters or you rock up with your tidal turbo and oh, we don't do it like that here. So we are very keen, we have a very open architecture about working with people on this and we're keen to really drive that on. And the thing is we have actually had a positive impact. We are already sure that we've had a major impact on people's jobs in the islands. We had up to about 350 people working in marine renewables out of a population of 20,000 a few years ago. It's turned down a bit due to some governmental challenges but we're probably about 150 people, 200 people at the moment but there are people with real jobs doing real things and having lives in these peripheral remote areas. We've also seen that it's become quite attractive with people from all over the world coming to see what's going on and the university is seeing students come from all over. It is attractive to do it and the supply chain is able to make investments in things which pay back money. So these are two of the five vessels that have been procured. There are three million pounds of piece. And finally we're also seeing that infrastructure is getting upgraded once again in these remote places. This piece of the pier was added for marine renewables to the pier which was for the ships, the ferries that come into the islands. And on that particular photograph there are four different tidal turbines being worked on in that photograph. So infrastructure has to be built ahead of need but once it's built it's being used for other things and in fact this has now turned into the UK's most popular cruise destination port. That wasn't part of the plan but it is. So infrastructure gets used. We build infrastructure ahead of need it will get used. So the I just wanted to touch on the last couple of minutes about the energy systems. I mentioned that we're trying to get marine energy to fit into an energy system as a whole. There's been an absolute drive in Orkney of which we've been able to partly ride the wave and pun intended to find a way to change our energy system and this has been going on for a number of years. And the island group itself has been looking at a whole bunch of different ideas for years and years and years. And so the islands have been looking at trying to find ways to make energy work and so we have the wave and tidal side of things has got us to a point where we've got more wave and tidal energy devices than anywhere else at the moment but if it just stays here it's not an industry. This has to spread. We have to get this out into the rest of the world and find ways of making it work. But the energy system as a whole has been very transparent to people in Orkney. We are on the end of a very long thin cable and so we could be working hard at trying to have other energy elements in our energy system as there's a lot of wind that's gone up and now we have produced more electricity than we can use every year since 2013. So we're a net exporter of electricity now and have been every year for some time. Now that then means that we have been in a position where people have got really engaged with energy processes and now around one in ten of the households are actually making their own power. Often from wind I've got a five kilowatt wind turbine in my garden it runs my house and it runs my electric car. You know, that's just pretty normal now. So we are seeing this prosumer thing actually really happen because people are alive to the possibilities that energy represents and see it amongst their friends and family and it's of course, it's a subject of constant conversation. We'll see if my wife tells me it is but that's not an industry. But we have seen an uptake of electric vehicles. That started to really roll now. We've also in projects now where we're starting to work at how we can put a dent in our ferry fleet's fuel consumption and we're now starting to use hydrogen to power our ferries and there's a project going on there that is already powering ferries and they tie up alongside the nitrogen hydrogen and we're about a bit of hydrogen floating in the ferry which will be happening in the next three weeks or so. So we're starting to find other ways into the transport space. Electricity is now going to be a transport issue. We're also pioneering work on smart technology so there is already a degree of interaction with the grids, we know what's going on. But the reason achievements is in the University Commons is we've still got the highest levels of fuel poverty in Scotland and we are having problems because of unhelpful government policies actually stalling some of the stuff that's going on. So the removal of support for people putting in renewables in the UK has really been blocked on some of the developments that have really been happening. So we try and articulate that and make it clear because I don't believe anybody gets up in the morning thinking how can I ruin this. It's usually done through some other drivers that mean that that seems the sensible thing to do but we try and make it visible as to the impact of what actually happens. But we recognise that this whole energy system so far we've really been concentrating on this electricity piece and actually there's a whole bigger piece. Electricity is only about a fifth of the of the UK's energy consumption a fifth. And we've basically done a good job in greening that but barely touched the other pieces. So there are other initiatives going on in the ordinary energy space at the moment working on very high energy efficiency housing. We're working on how to put solar into a grid that's already saturated. We're working on the public housing and also the public estate. This is a library, it's running on a sea source heat pump. It's got a coefficient of 7 on bits on that. So that's heating the public estate from the sea that's around us. We're working, say, on the ferries trying to find ways to put a dent in their 3 million litres of diesel they use a year and the EV roll out and how that interacts with the grid and how are we going to allow charging to happen effectively and finally we're putting in storage in people's houses and a number of other locations to make more use the electricity that then can smooth out our electrical demand. So the whole energy ecosystem is actually fed by what we're doing and also we are able to enable parts of it because we're bringing people of interest into our space. And I'm pleased to say an energy audit was one of the most useful things that was done a few years ago. I won't expect you to memorize this diagram but broadly speaking the size of the blocks is an indication of what's going on and so from the top electricity, coal, LPGs are very small kerosene, gas oil, diesel petrol, marine gas oil marine diesel oil, the heavy fuel and the interesting thing from this is it shows how much we're using for heavy fuel oil compared to what we're using for electricity on the islands. This is a big target for us we've really got to go after this and it's important to realise that there are a lot of islands around so these islands themselves then become markets in which you can sell the technology and do things. I'll try to remember the guy's name come back to me in a minute because one of the islands commissioners pointed out that in the European Union if you add together the populations of all of the islands in the European Union that would be the 8th largest state. So the point is that island matters matter. There is relevance in what goes on even in these small locations to try and make things work so we're very keen to try and drive that learning to see how we can make it all work. And over time we're working on things so we've now got this largely going on renewables we're all in a position where we're starting to put dense in our heating system electrifying that. We're now starting to work on marine diesel and synthetic fuels and finally we're also in a position where we would like to do something with agriculture. So if anybody has a hydrogen and electric tractor please see me afterwards. We're desperate to try and put dense in that space as well because it is so incredibly important. So the point is that overall we're tackling a number of different things I hope I've shown that marine engineering is a piece but it leads you into other spaces which then mean that you can try and find ways to exploit these other niches which frankly were unimagined a little while ago. And we had something painted up over the door at E-Net which is really our credo which is based on a speech by Kennedy. He said the problems of the world can not possibly be solved but the skeptics or critics whose horizons are limited by obvious realities. We need people who can dream the things that never were. This is really what we spend our time doing so we are very happy if people want to talk to us or we would love to find a way to try and help what anybody wants to do and it may not be us but this is what really drives us. So if anybody wants to know more about this I'd be delighted to talk to you. Thanks for your time.