 Colleagues, thank you. My name is Ian Young and I've got a very great honour to be Vice Chancellor of the Australian National University. On behalf of my colleagues, I'd like to welcome you here today to ANU. I'd like to begin as we do, traditionally, by welcoming you here and acknowledging and celebrating the first Australians on whose traditional lands we meet and whose cultures are among the oldest continuing cultures in human history. As Australia's National University, we're pleased to be in a position to host Indonesia's Minister of Trade, Mr Gita Wirawan. ANU and Indonesia share a particularly special relationship. As a university, we understand that the politics and economics of Indonesia are rooted deep in the country's societies, cultures and languages. That is why we pride ourselves on offering a very broad range, in fact an unrivaled range of courses covering Indonesian language, politics, economics and society, taught by experts in the field. I'm so delighted to see so many of our Indonesian students here today. ANU has a wide-ranging number of collaborative links with Indonesia, specifically with a range of Indonesian universities, think tanks, the government itself and the parliament of Indonesia and also a range of social organisations. ANU, in fact, has the greatest concentration of Indonesia experts in any university globally, that is outside of Indonesia, of course. The university is particularly proud of its long-standing Indonesia project and the bulletin of Indonesian economic studies which it produces and its signature annual conference, the Indonesia Update, which draws large numbers of people from both Australia and Indonesia. In fact, last month we hosted the latest Indonesia update which looked at the state of education in Indonesia. This is a particularly important issue, I'm sure, Mr Wiriawan, given, as I understand it, you're currently developing a hundred, sorry, a thousand preschools throughout Indonesia. As our closest neighbour, it is vital that we continue to nurture the important relationship between our two countries, notwithstanding the wide array of existing links. ANU is certainly very keen to deepen its ties with Indonesia even further. With that in mind, could I ask you to please welcome my colleague, Andrew McIntyre, the Dean of the ANU College of Asia and Pacific. Thank you Ian, good afternoon one and all. It's my privilege to be able to formally introduce Pak Gita Wiriawan. Pak Gita is famous in Indonesia and internationally for all sorts of reasons, for many reasons. He's currently famous as Indonesia's trade minister, a role he's occupied since 2011. And before that he was famous as Chairman of Indonesia's Investment Coordinating Board. These are two key economic roles in government and in both of them he's been very active in striving to, I guess you could say, leverage Indonesia's global profile as a part of the global economy that's vibrant and a great place to come and invest and be engaged commercially. He's obviously a key player in President Udo Yonoh's administration and he is in effect the international economic face of the government of Indonesia. He's here in town today, you might expect people come around the world just to come to the ANU. Fortunately, he's able to do some other business while he's here. He's been visiting his counterpart Craig Emerson earlier today having some bilaterals. I said he's famous for many reasons. Before he was famous as trade minister and chairman of the BKPM, he was already famous for his accomplishments in the business world. Pak Gita, I won't go through the whole list, but Pak Gita has been President Director of JPMorgan Indonesia, held key roles in Goldman Sachs, in Kortemina, Giant Oil Company, and then established his own private investment company, Ankara Capital, focused on the natural resources sector. If that's not enough reasons to be famous, Pak Gita is also something of a Renaissance man, very active as a philanthropist and as a supporter of what you might think of as various community causes. He established the Ankara Foundation, which has made gifts to major universities, not all of the major universities, major universities, it's okay, life is long, major universities around the world, including his alma mater, Harvard University. Running through these initiatives is this constant emphasis on helping young Indonesians, and he's established charitable institutions to help young Indonesians interested in golf, young Indonesians interested in music. So, a Renaissance man, the international economic face of the government of Indonesia, Pak Gita. I want to first thank Ian and Andrew for making this possible for me to speak at this great university, the Australian National University, which I know is affiliated with many great minds, Prime Ministers of Australia, General Laureates, and of course a few Ministers in the Indonesian government. To name a few, my name is Pangestu, and our Foreign Minister, Marty Natalegawa, and the guy that succeeded me at the investment board, Patrick Basri. I know many others have come and graduated from school, and successes can be attributed to this university. I want to basically just talk about three things today about Indonesia. The first is the history of Indonesia, and the second is about its current economic development, and the third would be the future of Indonesia. I think we all know if we go back a few billion people to the first millennium to be exact around the 7th and 8th and 9th centuries, Indonesia was able to mark itself on global map by way of its magnificence. This was around the times of the Sri Ligaya Empire, and the Kingdom followed thereafter by the Chalendra dynasty, which basically was marked by the success of having built the largest Buddhist temple in the world, entitled Boroburu, in what is now called Magalang, which is located in the central part of Java. This is a temple that's basically characterized and built with six score platforms, topped by four circular platforms, and dressed up with 2,500 relief panels and hundreds of Buddha statues. This was Indonesia's way of putting its stand on the global map, and it kind of like hibernated for a few hundred years, until it woke up again in the 14th century, at the peak of or in the midst of the Majapahit dynasty. And within the 14th century, we had a king by the name of Ayamutobu, who was assisted by one of the bravest, one of the ablest prime ministers of the Indonesian history, named Gajahmada. Gajahmada was a good man, in many respects, and helped the dynasty basically allow itself to expand its territory all the way from the inland of Thailand, eastward to all the way within the inland of Papua New Guinea. And Indonesia kind of slept again for a few hundred years until it got its wake up call in 1945. 1945 was a symbolic year for the world, because it marked the end of colonialism and imperialism, and it also marked the commencement of an economic system that basically prevailed for decades until it got tested quite seriously in the last few years, particularly in 2008. And it kind of like evolved, and I think the characterization of the leaderships of Indonesia since it woke up in 1945 would have been threefold. The first was when Sukarna ruled for decades, and the kiss of death was anybody that basically challenged the revolutionaries. And that was the bad word. And it evolved to the next eve of Suharto, who ruled for a little over 30 years, and the kiss of death or the sea word was communism. Anybody that was a communist was deemed against the government, was deemed bad, and had to be getting rid of. And we basically got started with the experiment of democratization. And my way of the transition spearheaded by E.B., then followed after by Megawati, we begin the process of democratizing. And it got to near perfection when the guy by the name of Susilo Bambamiroyono elected democratically, directly. And this was in 2004 where he began the process of perfecting the democratization. Where we are today, I think, has a lot more maturity in terms of our democracy compared to where we were in 2004, where we were in 1998. I was there in 1998 as a banker when we went through the difficult times of the Asian financial crisis. My salary in real terms or in dollar terms dropped by 85%. Some of you don't know what it feels like. Your salary drops by 85%. I can tell you felt pretty bad. That motivated me to go back to school. But Indonesia has gone from being economically and politically more about to being a story that I think more and more people around the world want to hear about in a good way. The pendulum has swum from a fiscal standpoint from being able to borrow so much to not being able to borrow at all. Our debt-to-GDP ratio has come down dramatically from near 100% to 23% in the recent months and it's likely to further decline to potentially less than 20% in the next three years. That's unheard of because in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 as I was trying to scrape for a living, people were not believers of Indonesia. People around the world were skeptical of Indonesia. There were a lot more people that didn't believe in Indonesia than those that basically believed in Indonesia. Many predicted the Balkanization of Indonesia. Many more predicted the Balkanization of Indonesia than those that said there's some hope. And we have actually swung quite a bit from a political standpoint and an economic standpoint. That's pretty much the history of Indonesia. As we crawled in the last few decades, particularly in the last 20 decades, 20 years ago, we saw the end of the Cold War around 20 years ago, before which it was bipolarity in the world, beyond which when we thought the world was not going to be any more bipolar, it actually became more diverse. We had a bigger number of centers of power, be it in India, Russia, the Middle East, Africa, Brazil, and what have you. And we've seen a community that developed. It's called APAC, the Asia Pacific Economic Community. Now it represents about 55% of the global GDP. The growth rate represents about 60 to 62% of the global growth rate. FDI and trade of APAC make up about 45% of those of the world. It has become a success story. It has become somewhat something that the world has looked at a lot more of. And this would have been a byproduct of the stabilization that we've seen in the past decades, whether it was started out by the end of the Cold War about 20 years ago, or by way of some of the views that many countries around the world have taken. Somehow it has happened that way. The second is with regards to Indonesia's economic development. Indonesia today is a $1.1 trillion dollar economy on a PPP adjusted basis. Nominal, it's about $850 billion. It's the largest of Southeast Asia's economies. It represents about 40% of Southeast Asia's economy. It's pretty big. It's about four times the size of Malaysia, five times the size of Singapore on a nominal basis, double the size of that of Saudi Arabia. But people in Oklahoma still think it's bigger than something much smaller than me. Why? Because people don't get it. People don't know about Indonesia. I think Indonesians all learn more to be like the Indians to show their chest. They need to basically be projecting themselves. They need to project Indonesia a little bit more proactively. Because we have been humbled for decades, hundreds of years. That's okay. It's actually better to be underestimated than to be overestimated. As long as we learn. As long as we go to ANU. As long as we go to this great university. And I think from an economic standpoint we've grown from being nothing or close to nothing to being something. We're now at a 15th largest economy in the world, which is why we're a member of the G20. And according to some pundits coming from Standard Charter, from McKinsey, from Goldman Sachs, and the likes of Nuri El Rabini, they have pontificated that Indonesia's economy is likely to be the top 10 economy by 2020. Likely to be the top 5 or 6 economy by 2030. Four weeks ago, McKinsey published a report which is glowing. And I always tell people, we didn't pay them anything to come out of this report. They've probably been listening to some of my speeches. But they probably got it. This is an economy that's likely to grow from 1.1 trillion US dollars to potentially 6 or 7 trillion dollars by 2030. Unreal. Cool in Java or Papa would think that our economy would be as big as 7 trillion dollars. Nobody. They don't get it. They don't even know that we're a member of G20. Well, much less. They don't know what G20 means. It's our job to tell them what it means. It's our job to tell them that we're a member of the G20. Now, imagine this. This is an economy that's going to go on this trajectory to about 6 or 7 trillion dollars by 2030. That's going to go to about 3 trillion dollars by 2020. It's a lot of donuts. And this economy sits on, I think, a pretty sexy fiscal posture. It's got a debt-to-GDP ratio of 23% on a continuing detonation to less than 20% in the next three years. It has been able to manage its monetary situation relatively efficiently and effectively. Inflation last year was managed at about 3.79%. And we're likely to be able to manage inflation at less than 5%. Today, this year, the next year, and the years after. I always tell people that a good chunk of the consumer president comes from chili. We eat a lot of chili. We eat a lot of spicy food. And I was telling people that chili contributed to about 0.86% all the inflation last year. It tells you about how much chili we eat. But it also tells me and you that we've got the world at all to manage inflation. We just have to eat less chili. And we've got to be able to manage some of the other things. The other things include the volatilities of food prices in general and the volatilities of commodities prices. So we've got the fiscal story and we've got the monetary story. But we've also got what I call the demographic story. Indonesia sits on a pretty fantastic demographic dividend. All you guys and all the others in Indonesia are what I call Lady Gaga generation. Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez generation. These are the guys who crave to listen to Lady Gaga, Jay-Z, Justin Bieber on their iPods. 60% of our population are younger than 39 years old. 50% of our population are younger than 29 years old. And the good news is Indonesians love to reproduce. At the rate we reproduce we're going to be able to maintain our demographic profile 10 years from today. Meaning 10 years from today 60% of our population then will be younger than 39. 50% of our population will be younger than 29 years old. 10 years from today. Imagine that. Now what we've got to make sure is that they don't just listen to the iPods. They go to ANU. They go to all the good universities around the world including those in Indonesia. They get fed right with enough protein. A lot of beef. I know. A lot of fish. A lot of chicken. We got no problem with chicken. We got two billion chickens today in Indonesia. That's more than what we need. We're not catching enough of our fish because we don't have enough of a coastal garden capability. But at the rate that we've got the fiscal space to spend on stuff that would help defend ourselves better, we'll be able to catch more fish. The beef is where I think the Australians have come in in a big way. This is what we spent a couple of hours with my counterpart. Some of the bilateral issues that came out on the media and whatever. That we've got to resolve. But the big picture is sexy. Here's the story. We consume only two kilograms of beef per capita per year. Two kilograms per person. The Germans, they eat about 40 kilograms of beef per capita per year. And I always kid with my German friends, that's why you make a Mercedes Benz. We don't eat enough protein that we can't make any Mercedes Benz. We've got to be smart enough to make Mercedes Benz. And in order to be smart, we've got to eat a lot of protein. Now, if we were to just ramp up our consumption of beef from two kilograms to 20 kilograms, the price of beef in Indonesia today is about seven dollars per kilogram. Seven dollars times 20 kilograms times 250 million people. That's 35 billion dollars per year. Just on a meat. Before we get to the dairy, before we get to the leather, before we get to the, you know, Indonesians, they love stuff wounded. Before we get to the ox tail. I always tell my entrepreneurial friends that look, instead of digging the ground and doing all this stuff that pollutes the environment, such as coal, why don't you do stuff on beef? Because this is a 35 billion dollar business on a yearly basis. You get it right. I don't see any country near Indonesia that could help, that could help more than Australia. Because you've got, you've got the world with all. You've got the scale. You've got everything that can be basically contributed to a country like Indonesia while making tons of money at the same time. And this is the simple messaging that I convey to my Australian friends here, anywhere around the world, that I think there's ways to do it. But the only way to get those ways done is to get the big picture right. But unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of people who get the big picture right yet. And it's up to us and you, the younger generation, aside from the front row, to make sure that we get it right going forward. There's enormous opportunity that lies ahead of us. Now, if we were to accumulate the GDPs of Indonesia going from 2010 or 11 all the way to that of 2030, going from one trillion to seven trillion in the 20-year period, the accumulation of those GDPs is about 50 to 60 trillion US dollars. Imagine that. Now, Indonesia is a country that basically relies on investment for about 30% of its GDP, assuming that the posture is the same for every year in the next 20 years. There's investments amounting to about 18 trillion dollars that need to be made in the next 20 years. That's 30% off the 60 trillion. If anybody that wants to trade, if anybody wants to trade, trade makes up about 50% of the GDP. Anybody that wants to be a trader knows that there's about 30 trillion US dollars worth of goodies and services that will have to be traded in the next 20 years. If Indonesia were to grow at five and a half, six or six and a half percent. And we're doing just that. While some of our friends in Europe and the US are not going through great economic times, Indonesia is growing at 6.3% in the first quarter and 6.4% in the second quarter. Why is that? Because 60% of the GDP is related to domestic consumption. Are we likely to be able to sustain that? You bet. Because of those Justin Bieber's and Selena Bonuses. They are consumptive people. And at the rate that we've got these demographic bonuses, we're going to be able to sustain the consumptive nature of our economy. As long as there are other drivers of the economy moving in the right direction. So you've got investment. You've got trade. All of you make a lot of money in this economy. And I think it's important to realize what sort of a number are we talking about here. 60 trillion dollars in terms of the accumulation of the GDPs in the next 20 years. And you pick. You want to do trading. You want to do investing. You want to do consuming. Now let me tell you this. Indonesia has mandated its constitution so that it will be able to spend at least 20% of its government budget on education. That 20% of the budget translates to about 38 billion US this year. Our government budget to GDP ratio is about 20%. So if the accumulation of the GDP is about 60 trillion dollars, the government budgets, the spending by the government in 20 year period will be about 12 trillion US dollars. This is all barring catastrophic scenarios, ladies and gentlemen. Now if we were to spend 20% of our government budget on education, that will be 20% of the 12 trillion US dollars. That's 2.4 trillion US dollars. Hypothetically, we're going to be spending up to 2.4 trillion dollars just on education in the next 20 years. It's going to be enough to replace all the dilapidated buildings in Indonesia, ramp up all the schools in Indonesia and be able to send any Indonesian who wants to go anywhere, including A&U. And this room is not going to be big enough for Indonesians. This campus may not be big enough if all of them want to go to A&U. I'd like someone to go to Stanford and Harvard. But there is a lot of money. Now I think what could derail this trajectory is a few things. If we don't get this long-term view, number two, if there's a bomb explosion, number three, if there is a continuing set of natural disasters that could derail our trajectory, there's all kinds of things that could derail the trajectory and directionality that I was talking about. But it's up to us. Indonesia is only blessed with about 20,000 PhDs compared to about 600,000 PhDs. India, same number, China. We can't compete with India and China today and in the next few years. But what we can do is we can gain change, the game a little bit. If we were to be able to spend the money right, there's no reason for us not to be able to produce 150,000 to 200,000 PhDs in the next 20 years. Now we have about 200,000 PhDs and the corresponding numbers of masters, bachelors, polytechnics, and what have you in the right fields, whether it's engineering and sciences and social sciences and what have you. I think we can be a lot more relevant to ourselves and the world. So that's the second part. The third part is the future. Where do we go from here? Some of the future stuff has already been talked about. But I think we know we've got a lot of stuff to do going forward. I think the government has done things right. But they have not done some things right. But it's important to recognize the directionality. When people ask me, you know how the other day I was giving a speech at another town, another university, called Yale, which is, you know, as he said, probably not as good as Anne Yu. But for a director, probably as good as Anne Yu. What about all this corruption? How are you going to be able to convince me or anybody from Oklahoma or from New Haven, Connecticut, to want to put money in Indonesia? My answer is simple. I can't solve corruption overnight. It took Hong Kong 35 years. But what you've got to know and what you've got to take a view on is whether or not Indonesia is going to be less corrupt five years from today. I can't see how Indonesia is going to be more corrupt five years from today if we're spending a lot more money on education and if we are recalibrating the compensation. There's always going to be imperfections. I'm not perfect, nor are you. But the key is to make sure that the directionality is right. And this is the story that I tell people. This is the story that I told people when I was the chairman of the investment board. And guess what? Indonesia has been the largest recipient of FDI in the last three years in Southeast Asia. Not talking about portfolio FDI. Talking about real bricks and mortar FDI. Last year it was about 20 billion. This year is likely to be about 26 to 27 billion. It's only going to go up to about 33 to 35 billion. And the other thing is we've got to be able to maintain the trajectory on where money goes. And so far money has gone to the right places. In 2009 only 18 percent of total money invested in Indonesia went to outside, outside Java. That 18 percent went up to 33 percent in 2010. 33 percent of the total capital formation took place outside Java. In 2011 it went up to 41 percent. And the first semester of this year it went up again to 45 percent. What does that mean? People in Flores, in Papua, in Maluku, Kalimantan, Sumatra, Bali, they get it. They get the 21st century. Look, Indonesia the last 14 years was not short of surprises and aberrations. But I can assure you if we do this right going forward, I think we're going to be less anachronistic because we're seeing the numbers pointing in the right direction. And I do believe that if we use the fiscal space right for the art stuff in terms of building the infrastructure, the roads, the power plant, the railroads, the ports, the airports, and also the soft stuff to help here in the education. And by making sure that the decentralization of money spending takes place the right way, I think democratization is likely to go in the right direction. There's going to be fluctuations, but as long as the directionality is that way. And that's going to speak for the economy. So do I believe that Indonesia has got a chance of becoming the number seven economy by 2030? I believe it to some extent. And I'll believe it more if you believe it. Do I believe that money is going to continue being put in the right places outside Java? Yes. I'm seeing that regional leaders are participating. So what we've got to make sure is that the future of Indonesia is one where we do the economic sizing properly. But also being sensitive to other things that are important, one which is the environment. The president has been bold in saying that we want to be pioneering and showing environmental friendliness. That the climate change in Copenhagen he said about wanting to achieve a 26% reduction of carbon emission by the year 2020 without external funding. Even to the extent of 41% with external funding, we seem to be on track. Why? Because a good chunk of the carbon emission relates to forest fires that have taken place in Kalimantan and also in Sumatra. Much of that has been stymied and we have begun the process of planting about a billion trees a year. We've planted about three and a half billion trees so far in the last few years. I think we're going to get there. But we're only going to get there more probably if more and more Indonesians take part in this. But more importantly, more Indonesians socializing it to their fellow citizens around the world, including the Australians, that Indonesia matters. Ladies and gentlemen, that's the story of Indonesia. Thank you. It has given us an extraordinary tour through Indonesia's future president and past. One of the things that really struck me is where you started. Back in Majapahit, back to Sri Lankan, back to Sri Vijay. And you did that in the course of talking about the country's political development in some sense. But if I think back to the political economy of those classical empires, especially Sri Vijay, underpinning it all was their openness to trade both internally and within the region and beyond the region. So that seems like a good thing to do. A good thing to do. We're going to glass of water. Yeah, yeah, please. That's my job to get you there. Sorry. Floor's open. Two rules. Please say who you are and please keep it short. And let's agree that if you're not sure, I'll stop you. Just so that lots of people can get a turn. So no big speeches. He's the guy giving speeches. Just short questions and I'll try and move it around the room. There's one here, one here, and then one up the back. We'll take three at a time. Just behind you. We'll take three and then we'll let you respond to three. Thank you so much, Pakita. My name is Fitran Adyansha. I'm the PhD candidate at the NU. I'm just wondering when you said about directionality and I believe to be able to maintain and keep the growth rate of Indonesia as you mentioned previously by 2030 or whatever to be still high. We need to change or adjust our development paradigm and at the current rate we still depend so much on natural resources and natural resources are not unlimited. I'm just wondering whether you have visions to sift the Indonesian development paradigm that sits. Thank you. Thank you. My name is Boody. I am a master student here, master in public policy. My question is, I think we worry about who is the next president, how the next president just maintain this economic development. I think if we reveal our economic development, so if we see candidate, I think we have a loss of confidence who will become the best candidate for the next president. Thanks. Yeah, my name is Hassanian Boody. I'm a PhD student from CAS. Just quick question, Pakita. I'd like to have your opinion regarding the investment outside Java and the role of decentralization because the fact is that till the last reading that I made, I mean a lot of people still come coming to Java islands. I just want to have your opinion regarding that issue. Thank you. Pakita, even though there's lots of questions, I'll jump around. I'll serve with the last one. The data is pretty clear. Money being put outside Java or invested outside Java has gone up. First semester of this year is 45 percent of the total capital invested. And let's not forget, the total capital has gone up by 25 to 30 percent each year in the last three years. How have I done it or how was how was I able to do it? Quite easy actually when, you know, I'm not like the minister of public works who goes out to the regions, hey governor, hey bupati, I'm going to build this road for you. Why don't you treat me nicely? I don't have the money, I don't have the budget, but this is what I do. When I go to sit down and have coffee or lunch with the governor of South Sulawesi, I talk about North Sulawesi. Oh, you know, governor, last week I was just in North Sulawesi and let me tell you great things that he did. I don't have any money. I don't have any money to build roads or ports or what have you, but let me just spend five minutes in terms of what he did greatly in North Sulawesi. You know what? I would leave him at that and I knew that night he couldn't sleep. He would be thinking about when I'm going to be talking about him when I go to North Sulawesi. That worked. I'm not saying everything worked. I'm not saying everyone followed me. I'm not saying it all worked perfectly, but it has shown. And the good news is the money's not just going to coal mines and palm oil and oil and gas. It's going to infrastructure. It's going to stuff that's value additive, you know, in the long run. Now, I don't know what you meant by the 2014, but I don't disagree with you in that there ought to be a policy continuity, the policy continuity that I think would at minimum be reflective of the needed crudence from a fiscal standpoint. But we've got a built-in mechanism to sustain that. We've got the law and constitution that mandates that our budget deficit cannot be any more than 3%. And at the rate that we don't like to borrow, and what has been institutionalized within the system, I think it's enough to sustain the sort of crudence that will be needed. Now, I think what could be developed going forward is to make sure that we do some of the stuff that the first question was asked to me. How do we make sure that we convert ourselves, whether slowly or quickly, from a natural resource to a human resource or human capital, centric economy? I think it's moving, but it's not going to move overnight. It's going to take years because it boils down to how educated we are and how more educated we can be. I think the specific stuff that I can tell you is the master plan. The master plan are called MP3EI. This was concocted in the middle part of last year. It talks about Indonesia 2025. It makes specific explanation about our need to produce about 17,000 or 17 million bachelor's degrees. And it also makes somewhat specific explanation about how many of these guys will be studying what until 2025. That, I think, is a game changer already. Now, it all boils down to execution. The money's ready. The money's ready, and let me underline the point. Indonesia only has about 10 million people paying taxes. 10 million people and companies paying taxes. And what's our population? There you go. And our tax ratio is already at about 15% using the OECD methodology. The upside potential is huge. Now, if we want to go with change in this paradigm from being a natural resource, centric economy to a less natural resource, centric economy, we can do it. We've just got to make sure that the fiscal space utilization is done properly. And if we could just collect taxes from, let's say, 25 million people and companies, we could have probably the most competitive tax rate environment in Indonesia. I could convince probably the chairman of Bloomberg to move his headquarter to Jakarta by giving him tax holidays for 25 years. And I could lower corporate tax rates, individual tax rates, to levels that are probably at least competitive for those in Hong Kong and those in Singapore. So, can we get there tomorrow? No. It's going to take time. We've got to make sure that 25 million people and companies pay taxes. Okay, I'll take the next. Let's go here, here, here. Thank you. My name is Marlisa. I'm from Harvard School and I'm from South Sulawesi as well. Anyway, you mentioned about Indonesia's... The story wasn't real then. So I know the nature of the government. Anyway, you mentioned how Indonesia's economic projection in the future can be boosted by investment and trade. But one thing to be taken into account is the presence of small medium enterprise that really enforce and help to recover our economy during the economic trend oil in 1998 and 2008. So I would like to ask your projection. How is the existence and the further role of small medium enterprise in actually boosting our economy trajectory in the future? Thank you. Thank you very much. A very interesting presentation on a lot of issues of which several have been responsible relative to my portfolio. My name is Kane, Professor Insanely, I work for the federal government. The thing I found most interesting was your reference to Indonesia's demographics as an advantage to large population growth, about the fourth largest population in the world, and particularly it's less, I believe, at the food and servicing population of food whilst also in years' growth. Do you see that as a problem in the time of rising sea levels, trying to change the increase in food and plastics? William Pachara, I'm a LLM candidate in petroleum law and policy at the University of Dundee. A few years ago, I think it was in 2006 or 2007, the Indonesian government signed the European Energy Charter, initiating what the European Energy Charter, starting that what would be the first step in the process of what's known as the Energy Charter Treaty process. I was just wondering if there is likely to be any more movement on that, because nothing's happened for several years. The Energy Charter Treaty is a trade and investment. It's a multilateral equivalent of a bilateral investment treaty specific to the energy sector. Thank you. On the first one, less than 20% of our population have access to financing, okay, loans and all that. And those that don't have access, which is more than 80% of our population, are women and SMEs. And I've been quite vocal about this at the G20 meeting and at the ASEAN summits. And when we talk about financial inclusion, this is what you've raised. We've got to make sure that the small mediums have access to financing. The fact remains that many of these people don't know how to fill out application forms. They don't have tax IDs. And the bankers use this as an excuse. And I speak as an ex banker. But it doesn't resolve the situation by just telling the excuses. I think there needs to be much more proactivity from the government, whether it's the Ministry of Finance or the Ministry of Trade, but also the central bank in making sure that efforts are being made by the bankers, but also the regional leaders as to engage more and more women and small mediums to take part so that they have access to financing. We're going to table this as an agenda item next year in the APAC summit. And Indonesia is going to be hosting the APAC summit. And we're also going to be hosting the ministerial conference through the WTO, where we also want to basically raise the visibility of the issue of financial inclusion. Part of it is what you've raised. Now, certainly the answer to your question is we're nowhere close to where we want to be. But I think as we spend more money on the soft infrastructure, but at the same time the policy makers get more proactive in educating the relevant stakeholders to do it. I think you might see some movement. Now, on this food security question, I think what worries me is that we're seeing an increasing number of disconnects in economies that may seem to be contracting, but at the same time having an inflationary environment. That disconnect is largely attributable to volatilities in food prices and volatilities in commodities prices. I do believe something ought to get done with these volatilities. And it has to do with the regulatory oversight. Unfortunately, much of that sits in Wall Street. You know the daily demand for oil is about 70 to 80 million barrels, but the actual transaction is about two billion barrels because of the futures and the derivatives involved. A lot of that is taking place or transacted in the place that I used to work. And that ought to get managed better. Similarly with food, you know the Chicago Board and other commodities exchanges do encourage or, you know, speculative nature transactions. Now, if this gets managed, well at the same time we take a view on where we can ramp up production and productivity in some countries. Indonesia, I think, is a country that could quite easily define food security logically, but some things are not logical. We've got water, we've got acreage, and we've got fertility, but we don't have the kind of productivity and yield for many crops, which we can certainly learn from Australia. We could quite learn from the Americans and Europeans in terms of whether it's GMO or genomics, or what have you. This is, I think, something that we've got to take a view on. But without that big mama taking place on the regulatory side, it's going to be difficult for us to think about defining food security in the near foreseeable future. The last bit on energy, I'm not quite close to the situation, but I'm more than happy to look into it, but what you're referring to is energy security and renewables and what have you to be reflected in a new charter that would have to get signed. I'm not sure if from an ASEAN or APAC standpoint something like that is going to get done. It's not for renewables, it's taking WTO principles and applying them to energy because the WTO system excludes energy. So this treaty was created in the early 90s by a group of European countries in Japan, it's a PIT, but for energy. I get you essentially. But here's the thing on the WTO. You're familiar with the Doha round, right? It's going round and round. It's been 11 years. The spirit of multilateralism and single undertaking does not seem to be working because of the gap of interest, particularly between those of that of the developed economies and that of where there's a lot of subsidization here in some sectors, inclusive of agriculture. Before that gets resolved, I don't think we can move on to... I think the low hanging fruits for WTO before we can move on to stuff like energy would be two things, trade facilitations and LBCs, the least developed countries where we can provide concessions for the millions of people that need it in Africa and Laos and some other poor countries. That's something that we want to table in the agenda next year. But before that, to try to table something related to the energy in the context of multilateralism, I think it would be farfetched. But if we get those two things done, I think we can start talking. Colleagues, it's four o'clock. I know there are more questions for the opportunity for further discussion with the minister outside shortly over snacks. But let me just, by way of closing, pull out from all the many statistics you mentioned, one ratio really jumped out at me. 20,000 to 600,000. Do you remember what that was? 20,000 PhDs in Indonesia, 600 in India and China, roughly. So India and China are, let's say, five to six times bigger population-wise. By no count, they're 30 times bigger. Minister's going to be available to talk freely in three or four minutes. And in that three or four minutes between now and then, Vice-Chancellor and I are going to have a quick word with him on the side about how I and you can make a contribution to helping with that.