 Hello once again, let's talk about urban planning. Today we go to Canada, where we discuss the Ottawa music strategy and how it intersects with issues of safety, of inclusion in local music scenes. Together with our speaker, Sarah Gelbard from McGill University, the same country, we address in this conversation today, punk counter narratives and how these counter narratives offer alternative visions of safety and inclusion. Sarah, welcome to our episode. Thank you so much. Let's jump into why you found this topic worthy of researching about. I'm really interested in this kind of the broader questions of spatial justice and the role that urban planning plays in the perpetuation of harmful outcomes than oppressive systems. And while we kind of have a good sense and we acknowledge ways that it does that overtly through discriminatory practices, through long histories, I think it's really important that we look to identify how that works in these kind of seemingly progressive planning reforms and specifically within these kind of seemingly progressive cities and countries. So with this research, I'm really looking at how that cultural policies around music strategies as well as safe space policies really intersect with cultural revitalization and economic development and how by approaching equity, diversity and inclusion goals through those economic priorities and rationales of good city building, it shapes the outcomes in a certain way and that really potentially limits our possibility of what is stated as its kind of transformational place making and social systemic changes that it's seeking to find. In this particular case, there has been of course some research before I believe in spatial justice urban planning and inclusion. So let me know about your expectations. Before we jump into the findings, what were you hoping to find when you started your research? Yeah, I think it's really important to acknowledge all the work that has been done both by scholars and communities in this and broader sense of what their experiences are of the social inequities and the spatial inequities, the economic inequities that kind of get perpetuated through these urban plans. And I'm really grateful for that work and really ground myself in that work. I've already learned so much by working with and engaging with queer, black, indigenous, gender working class scholarship and activism. And I really wanted this work to be an expression of my own experiences, the knowledge that I'm bringing from the Ottawa punk scene and how I've kind of experienced and my community has experienced the impacts of the music strategy, ways that the city is looking to revitalize the by-work market, which is one of our kind of core urban neighborhoods and what has been an important space for punk in the city for a long time. And so I really hope that this research could be part of that bigger project, ways that we share our kind of unique but collective stories of spatial injustice and can really build solidarity to confront these kind of embedded racist settler colonial patriarchal and capitalist logics that are part of our urban planning processes. Of course. So let us know about the findings and your most important reflections. So I really begin beyond kind of the literature review and this kind of standard setup. I really look at, take a deep dive into reading the cultural policies, several city plans in Ottawa and really kind of highlight that those existing or ways that those highlight this kind of existing cultural diversity of Ottawa and see that as one of its key strengths. And then it makes these recommendations about how to address the barriers to participation and the unequal representation of many marginalized communities. And so these plans really kind of then shape that around the diagnosis of the downtown urban core as being declining and ways that it can use that cultural diversity as having this important catalyst, ways that through place-making can really be a strategy for improving not just the cultural diversity but to really promote an economic development and revitalization of the core. And that this overall framing of the cultural policy and creative place-making is seen as this way to improve the quality of life, the livability and to really grow and diversify the economy. So that's kind of a summary of how the city sees this work. And then shifting towards this kind of grounded participatory ethnography of pumpkin and how it tells a different interpretation of that story, ways that through our experiences it can really highlight the negative impacts of cultural revitalization. Again, kind of very similar stories to so many other subcultures and marginalized groups of the commodification, the displacement, the ways that those subcultural spaces get sanitized through creative place-making and cultural revitalization. And that this really highlights the implicit distinctions that's being made through these plans about deeming who is a desirable, what is desirable cultural diversity and then sanitizing the spaces and the people that are deemed to be undesirable that are not contributing to that social, spatial and economic revitalization that is imagined through the urban plan. And so I think it's really a chance to think about some of the already existing practices of care and place-making, community-making that I've experienced through the punk scene and through the kind of counter-politics of punk and to really see alignment and potential solidarities with other groups. And in this case, really was looking at queering planning and the discussion that's happening and the broader special issue around queering planning. I'm curious because you just mentioned, so there are a lot of personal elements there, implications over the communities, cultural diversities and identities. I'm curious to explore a bit more the potential policy implications of what you've found in your research. So can you elaborate a bit on that? Yeah, really so important to kind of keep coming back to how long these conversations, like communities know this, communities have experienced this, communities are already building their own work in this area. And I think that work is really important to highlight. I think when it comes to what urban planners or policy makers are thinking about, I think it's really important to recognize how this framing of diversity, equity inclusion priorities, being framed as an opportunity for economic growth is deeply problematic because it frequently then reproduces those oppressive systems that will continue to marginalize, exclude and oppress the different groups that it says it is trying to help and bring and reconcile with. That said, I think there is genuine sincerity by a lot of public policy makers that include planners and that they want to be more conscientious of those potential negative impacts. So I think hearing these stories is really important and that we can also learn so much from different marginalized and subcultural alternative groups about what's alternatives they already are working through. And the other thing that I think is really great to recognize is that through these policies and these opportunities that are being created, there are so many equity seeking groups who are able to mobilize and strategically make use of things like the Ottawa Music Strategy, very different various types of place making strategies as an opportunity to kind of secure what they need for their community. So I think there is also kind of important to acknowledge that while these are imperfect policies that they have had a lot of benefit for a lot of marginalized groups and making use of those while being critical of them is an important step forward. And looking ahead in the future, if you or someone else had to write a follow-up article after this one, so what would it look like? So what should researchers look at now? There is really a kind of growing interest in punk and as an academic topic, there's the Punk Scholar Network and this great book on punk academics. And I think there's kind of a lot of interest of what that punk subculture is, what that means as an urban culture. There's so little research right now about what that means through this kind of lens of urban development, what that as another one of many groups who are engaged in spatial justice movements, what that looks like. And I think this is both an invitation for further research specifically on punk but also an open invitation to other subcultural groups who might, and people with experiences from those subcultural groups to tell their stories and to put them in dialogue with other groups to start really building on the movement towards spatial justice. I imagine there must be a lot of additional materials and resources about this topic. So can you share with us a couple of those recommended materials to follow up on this topic? There's a really great documentary that I recommend on this intersection of punk spaces and gentrification. It's called No Fun City that's directed and produced by Melissa James and Kate Krull. And it looks at the impact on the local punk scene in Vancouver of different public policies, the development and commercialization of their downtown area. There's a great blog about Ottawa punk scene if you're curious, not many folks beyond Ottawa have heard much about the Ottawa punk scene and it's called Ottawa Punk History, a blog spot. Really great list of articles as well as a full gigography. It's listed all of the shows that it can find between 1978 and 2002, really the first 25 years of punk in Ottawa. And then finally, I really recommend that we continue to listen and that it's important to hear what diverse and marginalized voices within punk spaces have to say about those spaces and the struggles that they face. And so I have two recommendations there. There's one discussion on YouTube called Racism in the Punk and Alternative Scenes that's led by Black Voices, that's available on the Emu Night YouTube channel. And then there's one called Vancouver Women in Punk that was produced by the Polygon Gallery and it's available on their YouTube channel as well. Perfect. And for those who are watching us on the Let's Talk About Urban Planning website, just scroll down to see these materials that Sarah just recommended. And of course, some help in publicizing the punk material on Ottawa to Sarah. Sarah, let's wrap this episode up. If there is anything you want our audience to remember about this talk, the punchline in one or two sentences, what would it be? I think equity, diversity, inclusion as policy and priorities are really important but they are insufficient reforms to urban planning. And similarly, we can look at this kind of broader recognition of these already existing cultural diversity and subcultural spaces in our cities as important but that that recognition is insufficient as we move towards building and solidifying anti-oppression and just in carrying cities for all. And so for those of us who are working from a relative privileged position, we still have a lot of work to do to build that trust and solidarity with diverse communities and many of which have such important lessons to teach us about placemaking, about place nurturing, about caring for each other in space and really thinking of community through that their experiences. Straight to the point. Sarah, it was a pleasure. Such a great chat. Thank you. For those who are listening to us on the Let's Talk About Urban Planning website, as I said before, you can scroll down to see the recommended materials that Sarah just shared and the article that served as a base for this conversation. You can also listen to this episode wherever you get your podcast. You can subscribe to our newsletter below in our website to stay tuned with the new episodes and we are also on Twitter at Kojitatiu LTA.