 So maybe you can just start by telling me your name and a little bit about yourself. Yeah. So my name is Taryn Goodwin. I use she her pronouns and identify as a disability and social practice artist. And what does it mean to be a disability and social practice artist? I think for me the first thing that really lands within that for me and why I've chosen to really step into that and claim that space is that what it means to be a disability and social practice artist is that it really comes from how do you align your wellness within your art practice? You know, how do you see the sustainability of your work in the long term? So you're really being mindful that the body and perhaps the pain levels or the abilities of the day are continuously fluctuating and changing. And so as a disability and social practice artist and just as a person, like I'm really just like, I want to do this the rest of my life. How do I sustain that? You know, how do I avoid, you know, falling into the traps of burnout that are so perpetuated within academia, within working cultures and really just taking a stance and being like, what does my body want to work through and how does it want to work through in this moment? And would you like to tell us anything about maybe what led you to that particular interest or area? So it's a story as all things are. And I'm going to land it back into Emily Carr. So in 2014, I was a transfer student. I did two years on Vancouver Island at North Island College in their program and transferred Emily Carr in the fall of 2013. And at that time, I was still in recovery from a head injury and then working through some of that. And then in the spring of 2014 was when I started to really know my body in a different way. And what that meant for me was that I was playing a sport at the time and had a slight tear in my Achilles tendon, like nothing, you know, just an injury that crutches in the middle kind of heal. And about two weeks into being on crutches, I couldn't move or feel my right leg from like the knee down. I woke up in morning and it just wasn't available in the way that it was before. And it was just like daily, you know, rehabilitation physiotherapists like chronic pain management, like nerve rehabilitation work. And at the time, I was really into performance art and large scale painting. And I had to know my body in my practice in a different way, because I wasn't able to have that space anymore. And it was one of those things that no one knew if it would come back from the nerves. And so it was just this thing where I was able, given the space from my body, essentially, to learn a new pace of being, to learn a pace that was like, you know, maybe these rhythms inside academia inside studio inside, you know, like, doesn't actually work anyways, you know, and how do we really center wellness by listening to our bodies. And it's one of those experiences where, and I think everyone has their own version of this story in some way, or something literally made you stop and slow down. And, you know, I was grateful to have that creative practice as an art student to be able to like, you know, not see this as how do I get back to the way it was, and into the pace at which, you know, the hustle and the work and the, you know, here's this project over here, but then you have to go above and beyond and more and more and just kind of landed in the new way and made me really think through that there was a way that could effort less and still like really be meaningful. And I think where I got into this work now around disability advocacy and really looking at the ways in which systems sustain a level of ableism within academia and therefore police a lot of bodies for really showing up in the ways that they are came from that time because I remember there was this one course in particular, and I was super grateful for it and still always am. And it was just that space where my ideas went here and here and here and so I'm trying to catch them right now is it's what's happening. But the, yeah, I think what I started to realize was that, you know, looking at the accommodation forms and notices that were available to me, you know, when it was like a lab to show up late for this many times or whatever it was, like, but still needed like a doctor's note and still needed this permission from this person over here and and still need that and what I really took away from that experience and what I really advocate for now is how those systems that are supposed to support folks really again displace our experience under a hierarchy of someone needs to approve or show that you're eligible for support. And I think from any lived experience that is marginalized or oppressed from an ableist non non functioning way I would say in the way systems are constantly just regurgitating so much out is that I was like, how do those policies and procedures like actually actually allow the body to take care? You know, and I think one of the things that also came out of that time was that just that common saying of like, oh, like, take care yourself, you know, it'll be fine. Like, don't worry about this, just take care. And I got really frustrated and I was like, how do you really take care of yourself when these attendants or participation grades are based on you showing up at a particular place for a particular amount of time? And and the body's fluctuating and adjusts the pain levels come the capacity is different. And it really just was like, this is is it doesn't align doesn't work. Like, how do you say to a culture to take care when the culture itself is telling you that you're going to be policed if you do so? If you take that class, like, you're just like, you know, I don't want to go that week. I'm just needing space for my mental health right now. Yeah. And yet, you know, it's like you're still graded on attendance and it's like this, it just it didn't match up. Didn't match up. So in that, um, yeah, it was about a year I took a year off after that. I just really kind of use some space. I wanted to pursue my practice outside of education and see where that would take and who I would meet and and how I process that. And I think having the space to process for me is really, really important. And I found that the pacing of like semester after semester after semester was just like, I didn't have enough time to really grasp who I was or how I wanted to show up in my work. And that just didn't really feel good. So took a year off and had a couple exhibitions and worked on a goat farm for a month. And just these like really just spontaneously fun things and continue to heal and continue to receive support for my mental and physical health. And I came back in, yeah, the fall of 2016. And I was like, okay, Taryn, like, this is it, you're going to finish your degree, just like pound it out. And we're taking three classes at the time. And I was just exhausted, like just downright exhausted. And I was like, I don't want to participate in a system that praises like burnout and just like this constant like, here's another 5000 readings we have to do. And it's just like, again, how do you take care of yourself when it's just this part and compoundment of expectations and of demands and the things that I don't think are really realistic to like a whole and like wellness based system, quite honest. And so I dropped out, I was like, I can't see myself sustaining in this, my pain was flaring up all the time. It just wasn't sustainable. And I was like this environment, like getting to campus was really challenging. Being in a stimulating environment, whether it was like lights or noises or just there was a lot that made it really hard to focus and to be in a position where I could say that I was really thriving as a student. And I was like, this is not how I want to feel as an artist. This is not how I want to feel as a learner. This is not how I want to feel as a person. So the decision to leave was easy. But what was hard was that the leaving of, you know, knowing that other bodies and others, other experiences were also going through perhaps very similar things that they also led to a fact where it's like, I don't fit in. I can't keep up. It just is crazy and wild. And I just, I don't know what to do and the blame that can perpetuate in that of like, well, everyone else seems to do it. But on that, I just don't think we talk about it enough. So yeah, I dropped out. And I, you know, for four years, I've worked in universities, I've worked for universities, but I just couldn't find myself as a student. Yeah. It's interesting in a way, like working for universities and with universities in a way outside of, you know, being a student in academia, you have more control over your schedule and pace in a way that it makes it interesting in contrast that the schedule for a student and the academic calendar schedule is so kind of rigid in one size fits all. I have a couple of things I want to ask you about that. One is, you know, you kind of mentioned that you, you're aware that there's other, other people who are probably going through something similar grappling with similar challenges, but you know, you weren't aware of who they are, how to find them, because the way we treat, you know, disability and accommodation is really private and kind of individual. There's no, you know, you mentioned this last time we talked, there's kind of no way for people to find each other. And I want to ask how, how you envision or how you think we could create a better culture around supporting people with different abilities to find each other and kind of share support or resources or, you know, organize collectively for a different model of learning and creating art. Absolutely. I love this question. It's just like super centered in, in that, and I think just to take it back a second, it is really important to acknowledge the systems are set up around what I like to call like the confidentiality of access. And it's just really tight, like here's your access, but it's private, it's confidential, it's stigmatized and it's marginalized. So good luck finding ways to speak out if that's how you feel you're being perceived, especially as a learner. And so I think that's part of it is looking at the external ways in which community is kept away from one another to understand that it's not an individual or it's not, you know, a fault of anything, it's just the, it's built in. And so to understand how to build it out, it often comes down for me of like, like you said it was four years and I came back to the university because of a global health pandemic like that allowed me to actually take care of my health as a student. Yes. You know, that I could like go from like my couch for a lecture and have a shower in the middle of my day and like eat and lie on the floor when I needed to. So in terms of that, I would say one of the things that I'm really curious and still curious about is four years ago, I still had no concept of who the other disability or neurodivergent artists on campus were. Faculty, non-regular faculty, students, no idea. And coming back four years later, I still had no idea. And I think that there's a problem that we don't have that data. It's not currently collected. And it's not available to be shared either. So again, it's like, how do you get to know who's who when there's no access to that information? And it goes back to that confidentiality of access. So the ways that I'm working through it is how I would within my art practice. And I've recently put together a call and then I can share a link with you. And what I also realized in this work too was that so many like student driven initiatives and activism work and just like there's so much that's happened throughout the history of Emily Carr, but there's no archiving of it. Like we don't like for someone who's been out for four years, I have no idea what's happened between the student activism and the initiatives that happen on campus. So I think part of this work too is really being like, how do we create a sustainable legacy and a commitment that allows people to continue not just once people who are bringing this in organizational models forward, but when those spaces or people are no longer a part of the university as an active student. So I am getting to this question. It is like it is it is here. Take your time. I like the journey. So yeah, so very basically what I came down to was that what is the first thing someone does when they when they don't know something, you know, they research it, they go to a library, they try to figure out community, they try to see themselves in other people's words. And that's what I did. And at Emily Carr, there's currently 34 like research guides on campus, but none of them were around disability or access or neurodivergence. And so again, there was this gap and even in the book collection where I was like, how do we find ourselves and it doesn't seem like a culture doesn't seem like a community that's part of art and culture at large. And so I was like, well, that is a place to start. So I created an online, it's in the works. It is a call for submission for an online art exhibition that asks for exactly that for people who self identify as disabled or neurodivergent artists, designers, community of Emily Carr who want to recommend a book for the collection from their lived experience from a place that's meaningful to them, based on academic ableism, based on embodiment, there's there's a list in the forum. But I think that's a place to start is that how do we start seeing each other with the resources that then can land in a collection that can last the span of that time. And in that too, it's my way of being like, I want to know who other people are. And if I can't get the data on it, and if they're not collecting the data, then I have to see this as as data collection of its own, and these conversations as such. So that is one current, whether it's a work around or just a way to get to know people. And from an empowered lens, I think is really important. So yeah, that's that's one way of doing that, for sure. I also want to go back to something else you mentioned, which is that, you know, obviously, COVID has disrupted all of our usual ways of doing things which have defaulted in the past to kind of an in person, very structured model of online learning. And it's been interesting because I think so much of the discussion has been on how this is limiting for people who, you know, are used to thriving in that in person model. And I'm interested in the fact that, you know, for some students, and probably some faculty and staff, including, you know, yourself as a student, it's actually made it more possible for you to participate fully and to get the full experience of that education. And and I'm wondering, like, what would you like to see carried forward, you know, if in 2020 to say things are back to normal, whatever that means, how would you like to see the model of providing a post secondary arts education change to continue to accommodate that flexibility and that space for people who have different, you know, needs and different different things that make their bodies happy. I love how you phrase that different things that make their body happy, because that's what it is. It's just knowing what makes your body happy and and advocating for that and and looking at how systems can also support that. So that also just makes me happy to hear that. Yeah, so okay, we're in 2022. You know, from my personal experience, I also just want to be mindful of that as a critical and cultural practices student, I have less studio classes than perhaps visual arts, right. And so that's also a very different way into this. So I just want to be mindful of that as I speak to this. But for me, I think that, you know, any class that's available to be a hybrid model, to be a hybrid model that, you know, just being able to, I don't even I don't like this word in this situation, but to be able to like accommodate, like the diversity that is, and not just being like, okay, well, you can arrive late, but you still have to get here. Yeah, no, and it's just like, that's taxing in and of itself, like my capacity to be present is therefore impacted by the energy it takes for me to have to get up this much early and do this. And I think that's true for all bodies. Just in how much time, even getting to this, I was like, I don't have to take any transit. It was just, I just had more capacity to be present because of the way that I'm spending my time being more mindful to that. But yeah, I think like, yeah, for me, I'm like, it would just continue online. For people that needed that, it would be a model as well that I think is more mentorship based and getting to know that like, again, like one thing that I would love to see, like as someone who's in their fourth year, extending time with that concept of what a fourth year does or is, you know, to get to know foundation students, first year students, other students that are just maybe starting to realize like what disability or neurodiversity means to them, right? Interesting. Yeah, start building more of a mentorship tone into things. And especially if we're able to meet virtually, you know, how many people or how many intimate conversations can happen between people in spaces that they also feel comfortable in. So that is something, yeah, I would just really, really love to see a push that going back to normal doesn't mean going back to the way it was, that normal becomes something that's more inclusive, it becomes something that's more aware of how bodies like can really function and then thrive and to really listen to, I only have one experience. Some people, like you said, might have had a really challenging time with this shift to online learning. And so how do we also listen to their experiences at the same time and really build a complex and a layered and a vibrant way of thinking through embodied practices of learning? I want to just ask when you were when you were starting to explain that you mentioned the word accommodation as one that you don't like. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah, because I think it's a word we do use a lot when we talk about, you know, accommodating people in this process. I mean, at Emily Carr, I believe it's called an accommodation process if you request some kind of different system or or practice to the norm. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's exactly it. It's a practice to the norm to get back to that equation that says, if you can fit like everyone else, then then that's accommodations working. And I think that that misses out on so much of the embodied knowledge that people who identify with disabilities and our neurodivergent have. And so I think accommodation for me is sticky because it's like, we can offer this, this and this, but it's still very much based on able-bodied normalism, colonial practices of attending a place and a time and a space. And I think that if accommodations were really created around care, access, wellness, active listening, that it would not be, this is what we can give you, but what do you have that you know of yourself really helps you sustain your way of being right now. And, you know, one of the things that I'm also really challenged by with like an episodic disability, so one that fluctuates, one that comes and goes, one that has really no rhythm to it, is that within the academic calendar, it's week after week after week after week. Right. And so if I'm out for a week and I still have to catch up on what's over here, like you're kind of always behind or feeling like you're always behind or that you're, you know, not good enough to keep up. And again, all of this like really burdensome language that we can use. And I think that, you know, accommodations at best are supposed to eliminate the stress that can come with that. But I really just see them as like a band-aid solution to a system that's not working for anyone. And that the accommodation of a really wellness-centered education would operate differently. How do you think it would look? I think like it's so, and again, it's like, this is only my experience because I'm like, how does this work times 20 bodies, times 200 bodies, times, you know, I'm like, I'm not sure of that. But what I am sure of is that like my body like loves to operate on, you know, okay, by the end of, here's just something that popped into my head. I've never thought about this before until this moment. So say, okay, so we're January, I'm just writing this down. Okay, so we're January to April. Okay. And instead of being like, you know, here's your assignments, here's when they're due, this is what you have to do between those months. Like I would love to be like, okay, by the end of April, you know, here are three things to do. Whether you get them done in the first, you know, two months or the last week, it does not matter. Like there is no timeframe for your engagement. But it's built into being like, we trust it as adults, as, you know, people that are paying for this education, that you're able to offer that space to yourself. And then I think it would be again, more mentorship. So it's one of things too that I find challenging is that you hand in assignments, essays, this and the other, you might get written feedback, but it doesn't really have like, well, then how do I keep working with that? It's kind of like that. It's like, okay, that's done. The grade's been graded. Okay. And, and I'm like, that doesn't, it doesn't activate or transpire enough in me for like, motivation or being really like, awesome, like I get to like rework this or there's never like an ending point. And I think that, yeah, just more entrepreneurial in the timelines and the framing and reconstructing what like full time and part time is in that. I think that really messes up a lot of people. They're like, you have to do this full time and you're like, why am I just stressed all the time? And yeah, I think really being aware of, yeah, the full time in the part time aspect of in particular, when things coming up is at the beginning of a semester, typically, you're given like a reading list. And, you know, an instructor will say that it might take, you know, this may hours per week to do the readings kind of thing, right? But that's only situated if, you know, not including, you know, is English your first language? What is your ability and function to have capacity to read at that moment? It could be brain fog, head injury, it could be, you know, arthritis, not being able to hold a book, it could be like, there's so many things, headaches, migraines, the impact that like normal timeframe. And I continuously come back to that thought of like, not all time is created equal, yet we're all measured as students on this like equation that tries to be like, all at the same time, all at once. And I don't really think that works from like an embodied place. Not from where I'm currently thinking about this syrup. It's my change, you know, ask me in two more minutes, who knows. But right now, I'm like, yeah, I just, I work really entrepreneurially, I work really like, you know, give me a nugget and I'll keep going and I'll do that. But like, I like creating my own learning outcomes, my own questions, my own ways into it. And I think that's why this directed study also came up too, was that in order to finish my degree, I knew two things. One, that I was going to do it remotely, that I wasn't moving back to Vancouver. And then two, was that, okay, how do I do that? And how do I have that supported? So yeah, that's, that was where this next work comes in. Will you tell me more about your directed studies? Yeah. So again, in relation to timeframes and timelines and like looking at how do you kind of build the different model of thinking through what engagement or participation as a student could be and could lend itself to. So I was like, okay, what I knew to be true at the moment that I thought of this was that I had 21 credits to finish my degree, that I was going to do it remotely, and that I didn't know what was happening with the context of COVID in terms of how this would play out. And this was in the fall of 2020. So I started thinking about, you know, how can I propose something that again, allows me to figure out that community element that I was missing of who are the other disability and neurodivergent artists on campus? Who is that? And how do we see that as a movement together? So that was one thing on my mind. The other thing was, how do I do this in a way that sustains myself and looks at community from a long form perspective? So I was looking at my credits and I was looking at the timeframes and I was looking at the directed study application and I started to see all these kind of like things connect. And I was like, well, we're just going to try, we're just going to see where this goes. And what the concept was, was that in order to build community that's grounded in commitment for one another, that it had to be longer than 15 weeks, which is a semester. So I was like, there just wasn't enough time to really say that you're working with community as a social practice artist, not in my mind anyways. So I was like, okay, so time was a thing. So I was looking at what I had left and I was like, literally like mapping them out with sticky notes and like, it was very fun. And I was like, well, if I do this across nine months, and if I gave myself a 12 credit directed study to be able to start the concept of a community building initiative to be able to gather stories from community and to be able to end up with a publication at the end that creates an archive of the stories of the histories and of the narratives of people within Emily Carr, currently as alumni, people that perhaps like, this is a side tangent. But what I'm super curious about is like, what happens to the students who dropped out and never came back? Like, how are we supporting that community? Like, what conversations are happening there? Because I could have easily been that. And I'm curious about like, and I like to frame it as like, who are the absent alumni? Who are the people that never got to graduate and why? You know, it could have just been a change in career, it could have been a change in whatever, but like, are there systemic things in the system that could have really allowed them to be like, you know, I see you here and you're allowed to belong here and be here. And I think that starts with knowing other people that also can belong and be here in their embodiments without feeling that they have to accommodate to fit in. Yeah. So yeah, the 12 credit record study was something that I was like, I need it to be long term and I need it to sustain the credits that I have left. And if I do this and this, it matches up with that, it was a number, it was 12. And I was like, okay, let's pitch it, let's see what happens. And I have a really great relationship with the Dean of Critical and Cultural Practices, who's been supportive this whole time, Sissy Fu. Thank you, Sissy. And you know, she's just been someone who was like, how else can we make this happen? And just really active in my pursuit. And I think that for any student, if they come with an intention that's really grounded in like, I care about this so much that I'm going to figure out a way to make it work. And I'm going to keep asking for it. And I'm going to keep showing up for it. And I'm going to keep living in that space. It's like, even if this concept was closed down, I would have been like, okay, well, I might not get credit for this work, but I'll still do it. It's just that kind of thing where I made myself a promise that I won't graduate without having done this work, without having to know who the other people are on campus. I'm not okay with other people struggling, not knowing either. It just continues isolation and stigma and just oppression that doesn't need to be there. So yeah, my goal was to see this as like, yeah, I won't graduate until it's established. Well, and I think that's such a lovely way to approach your education as something where you're, you know, you're investing in your academic community as opposed to treating your, you know, your progression through Emily Carr as an individual practice that will culminate in some kind of individual projects. I think that's a really lovely communal spirit that you're bringing to it. Thank you. I wanted to ask you, oh my gosh, I have so many things, but thinking about your art practice and how you bring this lens to it. Are there artists or collectives or models that you admire that have influenced you as you're thinking about, you know, what kind of impact you'd like to leave on Emily Carr and what, I guess, how this activism intersects with your art practice? Yeah, pardon me, I just can't go. I would say the top three that come to mind is a dear friend and collaborator and currently an amazing Vancouver social practice artist as well is my friend Carmen Papalia and work through open access, which is these five tenants that again really embody how community organizing and how initiatives of showing up as yourself in spaces can really be liberating and body centered. So I would say open access by Carmen Papalia. I would say disability justice work through sins and valid and the principles that that offers is a beautiful framework. I would say they also just came out with a really lovely primer called Skin, Tooth and Bones. The basis of movement is our people and it's a really beautiful book and insight into disability justice and into the ways in which working through that is very grounded in showing up in ourselves first and foremost. And I would also say the work of Mia Mingus, who was also part of the disability justice like sins and valid collective. She's just an amazing writer and advocate and someone who really allows her words to transpire into ways where I'm like, dang, like I just I felt myself in that like, yeah, it was amazing. So that and as I'm looking at my bookshelf, care work is another really beautiful practice, dreaming disability justice. And I remember it was the first book where I was like, you know, it's very much centered around queer black and brown trans bodies in disability justice and written by someone who identifies as such. But it was just such a beautiful thing where it's like being able to see the words, you know, brown, queer, indigenous people of color, like next to disability and being like, this is the strength that we bring to the spaces that we have. So that work, I could go on and on. I've actually signed up to this, because I could go on and on. I've created this community resource of just all of the different readings that I come to all the different, whether it's, you know, new definitions that show up or books that I'm reading or just ways to write things in plain language. I've created a community resource that anyone can add to on arena.com. And it's basically this like really cool, like visual platform that allows you just to plunk in like PDFs or links or books. And so that's an open opportunity to add to and also know that again, outside of this work, that that can still help people find a way into understanding that there is community already. Yeah, that's, I'm going to share all of these resources in the post and I'm very excited about them. I also want to ask you for, you know, for students who might be coming into Emily Carr in their first year, whether it's a transfer student or a foundation student who are struggling with how to, I guess, like engage with their education while respecting their own wellness as someone who's been on this journey for many years now and come back to it a few times. I guess what do you have any advice or wisdom or resources that you wish you'd had kind of earlier in your journey recommend besides the wonderful resources you mentioned? The irony of this is patience. Yeah. I think I wish I had more patience with myself with the process that, you know, it's really hard to be marginalized by systems and continue to feel that you have to advocate for yourself like day in and day out or not disclose things or, you know, who to disclose things to or how and I think just patience. Like, I would have never been able to get to where I am with this if I didn't have Carmen in my life, if I didn't have, you know, instructors that also said like, you know, here's this idea that's not on paper, but like I like and having that response be how can I support that? You know, like that to me is education, someone that can sit with you and be like, and how can I support that? Well, and I think that that leads me to my next question, which is, you know, I think you've you've made some really concrete suggestions for how the structure of courses and and like academic activities could be more flexible and more inclusive. But, you know, I think so much you even mentioned that you have this one experience and, you know, we all are sort of limited in our own framework. So I think even say faculty and staff who want to ensure they're creating opportunities for access for everybody have things that they would miss. So understanding that you're speaking from your own experience, I think what's what could faculty do? Like what do you wish maybe had been done differently in previous courses that could have made them more flexible for you or more, I guess, given you the opportunity to engage more fully? I would say and it might not necessarily be Hello Kitty. Ask his own question. Oh, so wise. So I feel like now I need that cat filter on that's like, I am a cat. I am not. Yes, this is the reverse of that words. He's not a lawyer. He's just a cat. Right. Yes. That's amazing. The best thing I've seen on the internet. Right. Because I'm like, dang. And yes, that's amazing. Yeah, I would say like, from this is just something that I've personally come across where I'm like, I'm trying to figure out my way through it. And, and one of those is that when instructors offer, you know, additional resources in relation to the weekly readings or the assignments and yet you look at them and there's like this huge list and it becomes instantly overwhelming. And I'm like, and what happens for me is I can go into this space where it's like, you know, I don't know enough. I have to do all of this. I know it's required but are recommended, but I'm like, Oh my gosh, I don't know any of those names. I don't know any of that information. And I get really, really bogged down with like, like, here's all of this stuff. And, and then like, where am I going with this? Yeah, here's all this stuff. And, you know, but is I'm struggling with this concept right now. I'm, yeah, I'm struggling with the concept of like, I know it's coming from like a generous and a generative place to offer all that. But I think as students who are, you know, between one to five classes, it can be a lot to see all that information and that information overwhelm. And so I would say that instead of offering suggestions for people to go above and beyond, let them get there on their own. You know, don't put those expectations up front. Expect that people will be curious and will be interested and they can also ask like, Hey, I'm looking for something like this, or I found this really interesting. Do you have a recommendation around that? And that could be through email, that could be a phone call like does a significantly as well. But I think that if you let people be curious and invested versus the overwhelm that can happen of like, you don't know all of this, like, how do you not know this yet? Could be a way to just soften that experience for students. And anyone that's coming in right now. That's that's building a relationship with their body inside academia. I would say to know that the pace at which you work is going to be able to outpace the sustainability of education of academia. And so if you can really land in that in being able to know that like, if you can offer yourself a break when you need a break. And if you can work through that struggle and that tension of not deserving it, or needing to prove it or needing to do work and then take a break. Like it's a it's a cultural activism that you're doing. And I think that serves you outside of academia that serves you in your life that serves you in your friendships in your relationships of any kind. And I think just really understanding that the way in which education is presented isn't the only way it has to be received. And to start to question like, as a learner, as an artist, you know, what is your role as a student? And for me, I believe that it's to question the systems in which we participate in. And I would just say, you know, what questions do you have around your learning? You know, what insights does that offer and offer other people that because of the way that you're able to speak into like, this doesn't work for me, or I know a way that could really work for me. And just to have those conversations with with one person, and, you know, see where that goes, that could be a peer, it could be a faculty member, it could be someone outside, but just being like, this doesn't work. And it's not my fault that it doesn't work. It's the social model of disability, where, you know, staring at a set of stairs, and wishing it was a ramp isn't going to make it a ramp. It's just, you know, that system was set up to not be inclusive. And that's what's happening here. And so I think that was from a pulled quote from Stella, her last name. I want to say Stella, it's not, it's like Mick, and the rest trails off. But she is a great TED talk called, it's like piecing it together right now. It's like, I am not an inspiration, or I'm not inspiration porn. I think it's what it's called. And it's again, you know, people with disabilities visible in her case. Everyone's like, oh, like, you're such an inspiration. Like you beat the odds. And she's like, that's not like, I'm not trying to beat the odds. I'm trying to survive. You know, yeah. Yeah, I think it's, I think there's, there's a lot in the sort of common framing of, of like disability is inspiration, where people are sort of praised when they maybe have to overcome something to fit into a model that's not accessible and not equitable, as if that's a good thing as opposed to like, I guess, something shameful about how our current models exclude people. And I like that you talk about how, you know, it's important to model, I guess, boundaries and needs by expressing what you can and can't do or what you maybe another way of putting it too is like what you will and won't do to compromise your health to fit within a certain system because I think there is, you know, there's a lot of like shame and, and stigma and like secretive systems associated with like, allowing people to try and fit. And I think when we frame things as accommodations, we make, we put people in the position of feeling like they should be grateful for that access as opposed to like too much. Yeah, exactly. We can help you to hear, but like don't ask anymore. And if you ask more, then you're just, it's unfair at that point. Yeah. And how like the options we present people in a way kind of create the possible conditions for them. So if we only offer certain kinds of accommodations, then, then we're telling people what they can and can't ask for. And so I think I just, I really like the way you talk about doing this is public work and work that other people can see to understand maybe what's possible for them and imagine that they can ask for more and expect these systems to change. Can I just duck out for one second and bring a piece of paper that is popping to my mind? Yes, please do. So this little beauty is this and this was done in the spring of 2014. So that the semester that I was in rehabilitation and recovery and it was part of the ethics of representation. And Justin Lingua taught that course and he was just an amazing support in, he was the person who said to me like, and how can I support this, right? And that was like, like it was, it has done so much just those words. And in that class, one of the assignments was to create a work that ethically represents someone. And I remember at the time, my dear friends, Ali, we were outside on the balcony of Emily Carr on the Granville Island campus, like above the building there. And I was just going through like a really tough time. And I was in that phase where I'm like, Ali, like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, it's just I'm constantly feeling like I'm fighting against my own self to try to sustain myself here. And that's, it was just the pacing, like I've now come to think of it as like, it's the disembodied pace of institutional learning that's disabled. It's institutions that are disabling people, not people that are disabled in institutions. Anyways, so I was like, Ali, I'm just, I'm just going through a time. And she was like, tell me, tell me about it. Tell me, you know, what would be like you just asked me, you know, like, what's an ideal space. And I remember we sat there. And it was just this fluid conversation of like, I just, it was like this poem that kind of came up for me. It was just like one thing after another. And what she did was she wrote it down by hand, and she just listened, she held space to listen. It's not just what she did, that is exactly what she did. And so now I have this beautiful, like typed up scroll that has, it's called the list. The idea, the ideal school project. And the first one is self care is integral to all that you do. And if we built a system that honored that, you know, how would that change the way that we engage in meetings, like would there be back to back meetings, you know, would there be 830 classes in the morning? Would there be, you know, and some people are really early morning people. So maybe they have studio at six in the morning, that's when they really want to. But yeah, it's, it was just this practice of at the top of all of the things, you know, how a self care integral. And the next one is like, and this was, yeah, from 2014, stay engaged, if not, reengage yourself. Number three was ask for your practice to be supported. And for I'll just read to like 10. There's 37. For was collaborate with those that interest you, you know, inside, outside, beyond, within, like, and number five was continuously reimagine the future of the school. And number six was trust the capacity of your own work. Yeah, and maybe I'll end on that one. I love those. Yeah, it was just this thing where, and I think it's the practice of community, right? She was able to, to write something down that I didn't have the space or the mental capacity to write at the time. And she was there and she listened. And she was like, how can I support this? You know, and I hope that's what this work does is that, you know, how can I support, you know, this liberation that can come from, you know, not hiding one's experience anymore, not having to be ashamed of the way and the pace at which you work that best suits you that doesn't look like full-time or even part-time. Thank you. I feel like that's a good point to end on, but I want to ask if you have anything else that you wanted to share. I just think that, like, as much as I am very, like, optimistic and, like, hearted and, like, in this work in a very kind of currently bubbly state, it's not always like that. And, and I don't want to offer this illusion that, like, once you know this, it's, it's, you're good. It's like, no, this is hard. And there are many moments where it's just, it's really frustrating. And it's, I think as well, like, I mean, I'm super grateful for to have the friends and people in my life who are also students who understand this experience. Because I think understanding that the, the pain that can come with the emotions that come with this as well isn't alone. And yeah, I just also want to offer that it's, it's something that takes a lot of deep breaths and a lot of downtime and a lot of rest. And, you know, after this call, I'm like, okay, I'm deliberately going to go for a walk after this and not go right into my computer. And before this, I bought some tulips. And, you know, it was one of those things where I'm like, how do you pace it? So it's not crammed. And just to give yourself that space. So which I think it's such a wonderful call to action for everybody, regardless of how they conceive of their own ability is, you know, I think a lot of us have a model that the way to serve others and serve our community is to be as available as possible. But by placing those boundaries on your time, you're giving other people the space to do that as well. And modeling that, as you said, is as healthy behavior and behavior that everyone should feel they can enact. And I appreciate you that you brought up before the question of like, who's missing in these discussions? Like, who are the alumni who are missing? You know, who are the people who dropped out and never came back who are difficult to, you know, to see in these, the processes, the way that they're documented. And so I think, like by sharing your own experience, I would hope that it's, it's useful for everybody to consider as we're trying to create projects or, you know, community initiatives or art practices or workplaces or schools that are welcoming to people to consider who's not included in how we can make space for them to and let them create their own boundaries around what that space looks like. So I'm very grateful to you for making time to talk about this with me and and sharing so much of what you're working on. Thank you, Michelle. And thank you for your cat and the joy and a little nugget that that was. He's a joyful nugget. Yes. He's not always the most professional coworker, but I'm glad to have him. What is professional, you know, I think that's another space and another conversation where it's like, we need to really debunk that. That's true. I fully agree. Though I think any definition of professionalism should not include my cat's butt in anyone's face. Maybe mine with an asterisk. I'll take it. I'll take that one. At least people can define it for themselves. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's it. It's self defining what works for you and to be in environments that work for you from that self definition. Yeah, I mean, especially an institution, I think that is grounded in the idea of, you know, creative practice and creative exploration and remaking, you know, what artistic and cultural landscapes look like. That's that's the perfect place to ferment a different idea of what, you know, what school looks like, what work looks like, what what a structured education means to people. I think that's exactly like why I'm still here. Like it's so exciting to be able to do this work in in the size of the institution is, I think is key. But I also think just that mindset that I really do think it's founded on is that like, you know, we're, we're wanting to pursue the art of education, the art of this. And I think that, you know, art demands, you know, it demands innovation. It demands like alternatives that don't make sense on paper, you know, and I think that's why I'm also super excited to do this through and with Emily Carr in particular, is that like this, I don't think whatever fly at an institution that was four times the size of this, like it just wouldn't have the intimacy that it needs to start to reflect on the ways in which things interconnect at the pace that this also needs to slow down from. You know, I think at the beginning of the pandemic, people, you know, it's what was the, there was two words that it was responsive and recovery. And I think that there was a lot of people that were just, we were responding to this, we're responding. And it was just this, and yeah, I was in that model too. And it was just like this is like, I don't know how to keep up, like it was, and eventually, you know, how do you take that responsiveness into a recovery model? So perhaps we're recovering as an institution to a new cultural model that, you know, and recovery, it's deliberate, it's slow, it's hard work, it's uncomfortable. But I think that if we start to see it as a recovery versus a returning to, they end up in very different places. And I think it's the intention of where we want to end up that really matters to this. That's such a great last line. I'm going to end the recording. But thank you so much, Darren.