 Good afternoon, friends, I welcome you to the afternoon session on gender quotas in Parliament. My name is Rebecca Kadaga, I'm the Speaker of the National Assembly of Uganda and I'm delighted to be here this afternoon on this very interesting topic. As you recall, it's 30 years since, more than 30 years since the UN enacted the CEDA, the Convention on Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. The states did undertake to eliminate barriers to women's emancipation. Although it's the most stratified Convention in the history of the United Nations, the reality is far different. At the moment, only 19 countries have gone beyond the 30% mark, with only two reaching the 50% representation of women, 23 are in the 24-34 category, 39 in the 25-29 category, 31 in the 20-24 category, 30 in the 15-19% category, 39 in the 10-14% category, 5-10% representation category, 14 in the 0.1-4% category, and 7 in the non-representation, 0 category. There is no formula on each continent. Each has a bit of both, a bit of the good stories, a bit of the poor stories. All this means that in many countries, the voice of the women is either not heard or if heard not adequately represented in decision-making positions at the United Nations, at the national level. So today, we have four minute speakers. First, we'll have Margot James, MP, parliamentary aide to Lord Green, who will be our first presenter who will have 10 minutes, should be followed by Honourable Gloria Akizimana, also have 10 minutes, Honourable Nicola Wagon of New Zealand, also 10 minutes. There's a fourth member I hope should be coming, Esther. That's three minutes. Okay, okay. She's one of the other three minutes from the meeting. Okay. Then after they've made their presentations, we shall have the floor, members taking it for three minutes. So let me invite Honourable Margot James to start. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It's a real pleasure to be asked to contribute to this very important conference here today and I congratulate the Inter-Parliamentary Union and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association for bringing together such a diverse group of predominantly female parliamentarians from around the world. It's fantastic to be with you all. The question is, do quotas make a positive difference? And my answer to that question is yes, but at a price. And I want to just explore those two themes in the 10 minutes available to me. There's no doubt that quotas have made a positive difference in many of the countries that have applied them. If you look at the list which is available online of countries and their approach to quotas, at least 70 countries around the world have in place some legislative quota system governing the number of women that may sit in one or both when it's a bicameral legislature, chambers of parliament. And it would be a brave person, I think, to say that the answer to the question on discussion is no, because what would we do about the women who are elected on that basis at the moment in so many countries around the world? And I wanted to just take two of those countries about whom I know a little from my own experience, Iraq and Afghanistan. Now both Iraq and Afghanistan have in place quotas and they're both conflict situations, post-conflict in Iraq and continuing conflict in Afghanistan. And in those situations, I think it is particularly difficult for women to emerge into the legislative process. And I would contend that women would have very, very little representation in those countries without the use of quotas. Certainly the women parliamentarians I've met in Afghanistan are not embarrassed about the fact that they technically owe their position as elected representatives to the quotas. Without which they very, very, very few, if any, women would be elected into that parliament. And once women are in parliament, at least they have a voice. Never mind how they got there. They have a voice. They can raise issues that are of greater concern to women than to men. They can bring a uniquely female perspective to some of these issues, particularly in conflict situations where women have different interests to those of men. And they are also role models. Their very presence in the legislature in their countries provide role models for a lot of other women and girls, particularly in those countries who, for the first time in many cases, are seeing women in parliament. Of course, women do need to be more than just a parliamentary presence, which is why I applaud the system in Afghanistan which actually determines that a certain number of government posts be made available to women as well as positions in the legislature. In many ways, quotas in the legislature are not enough because it is a requirement, I think, for women's advancement and for women to have a real say in governance, that women have positions in government as well as in parliament. Because in many of the systems that we can review here today, it is the decision making really goes on in government, much more so than it does in parliament. So it's important that women, if you're going to have a quota, it should apply to positions in government as well as in parliament. And the final reason I would say quotas have made a positive difference is that in a lot of these countries, the women have a critical mass. Once you get to after 20% of women in parliament, or better still a third, I would say, then you get to a point where there is a critical mass of women in parliament and they can act more as women, if you like, rather than as token men. Certainly, when there were not very many women in the UK parliament, and by the way, there still aren't enough, but at least we do have 20-odd percent. And there is more of a critical mass and we can operate as women rather than, I think, years gone by when there were more like 10%. And there was such a small minority that they were singled out for undue attention. And there was, I think, a feeling that they had to operate on, you know, as members of the rather male political culture that existed at the time. So I think critical mass is crucial. And in many countries, I'm afraid, we haven't got to that critical mass without the use of quotas. But I did say that this comes at a price, and I do very firmly believe that we have to acknowledge that we do pay quite a heavy price for quotas. I think there is an inherent lack of respect for the women who arrive in a legislature by means of a quota system. And not just respect for, but I think in some ways a women's self-respect is compromised. A lot of the women in the UK who are against quotas will argue that women feel patronized by the imposition of quotas and they want to make it on the same terms that men make it. But what I'd like to say to that, actually, is that there is a myth, I think, of meritocracy that certainly has been in the UK, that's for sure. There never was a level playing field. The playing field was always shaped like that in favour of men. So there is this myth that some of my female colleagues think that, oh, we all want to be selected via meritocracy. Well, a chance would be a fine thing. So I think we have to accept that if we don't use quotas, then there is a strong case for affirmative action, positive action, whereby we recognise that if you just leave the status quo to function, it is not going to throw up as many women as it is going to throw up men in any system of governance. I think the other downside to the use of quotas is that governments will tend to eye the proportion of parliamentary places that are set aside for women as a sort of convenient block of votes, if you like. And I know this is the case in some of the countries I've mentioned, actually. The Afghan women MPs have told me that there are quite a number of women in that allocation of quota places for women who are the wives of ministers or, at best, government place women. So I think we have to accept that that is part of the price as well. And then what level do you set the quota at? This is a troubling question. You're too low, and you don't get that critical mass that I think that we need in order to make progress and raise the issues of concern to women too high. And you get the issue, potentially, in some countries. Are there enough women available who have the necessary training and capability to take the places on offer? This actually has been the case, not in politics, but in business, in Norway, where they've introduced quite tough quotas for the number of women on boards in Norway. And they literally have not been enough corporately qualified women to go around. So I think we have to accept that that's an issue. And that leads me to my final point, which is the ultimate price, unfortunately, with quotas, is that it does compromise the need to make this important progress towards having enough capable trained women who are willing and able to take on these important roles. And the sort of quick fix of a quota can make the system relax far too much and think, well, we've got a third of women in parliament, you know, job done. And as we all know, as women, whether or not we operate in countries where there is a quota or whether there isn't a quota, you know, the job is far from done. And we don't want legislatures and governments to fall into a sense of false security, which I think quotas can, if we're not very careful, bring about. So I'm sorry I haven't quite answered the question in a clear yes, no way. But if you'll bear with me, I've shared my honest appreciation of the issue based on many years of experience, not just in politics, but in business as well, where we have the same issues. So I thank you very much for listening to me this afternoon and for enabling me to join with you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Marco. And now we invite Glorius and Kizumana to come and make our presentation. Bonjour. Good afternoon. My name is Gloriusa Aksimana. I'm a senator from Burundi, honorable chair, colleagues, distinguished guests, protocol being observed. It's a great honor for the parliament of Burundi and a real pleasure for me to take part in this international parliamentary conference on gender and policy and politics. And I take this opportunity to congratulate the British people for the success of the events that took place this year, the celebration of the diamond jubilee of Her Majesty Elizabeth II and also the great success of the Paralympic and Olympic Games in London, 2012. And I also like to thank the Interparliamentary Union and the CPA for organizing this conference. And I would also like to convey to you the greetings of the parliament from Burundi, honorable chair, colleagues, the topic, today's topic on the quota, on the gender and politics quota, is particularly interesting, both at national, regional and international level because of its effect on the life of people, but also because of the efficiency, the inclusiveness, and to some extent, the confidence inspired by power. However, for the quota to give the planned results, they must take into account some specific political, social realities and conditions. In general, quotas are described as temporary measures aiming at interrupting a habit, which is to recruit same type candidates always in order to fill positions of power. This system has drawbacks and advantages, as we've seen, dealing with examples, and we are going to talk about the gender quotas in Africa, especially in eastern Africa, in Burundi. As far as Africa is concerned, in the last few years, African countries made significant progress to promote women in politics and also in public life. A number of African countries set a quota of 30% of women to obtain a minimum level of leaders and to give women the ways to really influence public life. The best results were reached in the countries which set up a type of quotas, such as voluntary quotas or legislative quotas, or both. A lot of African countries managed to include voluntary and compulsory quotas in the party programs. Voluntary quotas in general are adopted by political parties, whereas compulsory quotas are normally come from laws passed by governments in their national constitutions or in the electoral codes and other regulations. Now we're going to talk about the constitutional quotas in Africa. According to the quota project, Burundi, Kenya, the United Republic of Tanzania, Renda and Somalia have constitutional quotas for the national parliaments. Most of these countries, Burundi, the United Republic of Tanzania and Renda, advocate at least 30% quotas for women in parliament. Some African countries such as Renda and Angola go further. Renda has 56.3% in the lower house of parliament and Angola has 37.3% again in the lower chamber or lower house of parliament. And so this is much more than the 30%, the quota of 30% in their constitutions. As research has proved that the success for quotas depends essentially on the type of voting system enforced in the countries and also depends on the commitment of the party leaders and the heads of governments to promote women in politics. For instance, in Burundi, we have a party, the CNDD, FDD party. For the 2010 elections, this party put forward a charity senator candidate for each province. So each province now has a male senator and a woman female senator, whereas the constitution only said that 30% of women were necessary. So it's important for party leaders to commit to recruit women actively and to try and nominate candidates on their or female candidates on their election list and to promote women in the party apparatus. In Burundi again, in 2005, the constitution was voted and it introduced a quota of at least 30% for women. This quota led the women to join political parties. Whereas before women weren't interested in politics, they massively joined political parties and it allowed them, then they became mobilized in order to go to vote and to become elected as well. And it allowed women to come out of their, to go out and to talk politics. Whereas in the past, it was the preserve of men. And so this quota system led to changes in the political arena in Burundi. So just as an illustration, from 2001, there was a parliament with a representation of 19.9%. Whereas in 2005, it moved to 31.35%. And in the Senate, which was moved to, in the Senate, moved to 34.6%. And in 2010, Senate moved to 46.3% because in the Senate in Burundi, you have live peers or live senators who are former presidents of the republic. So that creates a bias a little bit. But normally we have one female and one male senator in each province. So within the communal councils, once again, there's a new thing. You have the 2009 communal act in which she introduced a quota and it allowed, at communal level again, to have 30% of women in the communal councils. And there's a slight problem in Burundi. It's more at the grassroots level. What we call the culinary elections or district elections, there's no quota in them. And the candidates are independent. They don't belong to parties. So women only have a representation of 4.67%. So you can see the difficulty when no quota is compulsory. These women really have a problem to be able to take off in politics, in the political apparatus. So the participation of women in government, well, once again, the quota is constitutional, which means there's an obligation which is to have 30% of women in government. So it's slightly lower because it's only at government level. So as far as the directors general or the embassies, that is the work of the Senate and as Senate controls or carries that governmental monitoring, we try to go and see when there are disparities or lack of equilibrium in order to try and correct the imbalances when they occur. And to enter the debate fully, several arguments support the adoption in law of quotas favorable to the election of women. And I'll give you seven arguments. They are shared by several of my colleagues. Experience shows that quotas are the best way of taking into account the gender equity and also to better balance the representation of both sexes. That's the first reason. And the second reason is including quotas in the law that helps to avoid or to bypass the resistance of the traditional leaders of parties who don't want to know about women. The other reason is that elected women become role models for other women. It's another positive reason for me. And the quotas provided for by the law force political parties to find good female candidates in order to be able to win the elections. So once they're elected, women can help get rid or eradicate some structural obstacles to the election of women. Another reason is that the quotas provided for by the law are not discriminatory, discriminatory, but on the contrary, they correct an existing discrimination. And the last reason is that quotas do not limit freedom of choice. On the contrary, they give a choice which is to elect women as well as men. And finally, the involvement of women is necessary in political life. However, we have to remember that quotas are not enough to eradicate the barriers which stop or prevent equal participation, but they are moral tools which allow us to reach the objective of gender equality. Thank you. Thank you so much, Claudios, for your elaborate presentations full of justification and other information. I now invite the Honorable Nicola Wagner from New Zealand. Kia ora. Tenakoto, tenakoto, tenakoto katoa. That's a greeting from New Zealand. Good afternoon. I'm Nikki Wagner. I'm the National MP from Christchurch, New Zealand. And we've had a bit of a shaky time there recently with 11,000 earthquakes. I come to speak against quotas. But I make that statement in the context of the New Zealand experience. New Zealand, you may know, is a very small country. We think it's a very beautiful country, but it's a long way away from here. And so I do understand that different countries require different processes. But New Zealand was the first country in the world to give women the vote. That was back in 1893. And according to the stats presented before lunch today, we also have the highest number of female parliamentarians in the world, even though it doesn't seem like that sometimes, about 32%. So I have a pretty simple straightforward point of view. I believe that women are talented, that we're hardworking, that we're compassionate, and that being over 50% of the population of the world, there's merit, real benefits, and an absolute need for women to be well-represented in the parliament, and actually not just parliament in all walks of life. Today we've heard from delegates in very different stages of where they are in women's representation. We've heard from people who are still thinking in terms of allowing women to stand, allowing women to stand. Who's doing the allowing? And then we've also heard from delegates who say that their country is gender-blind when they come to voting. And I actually think that's the case in New Zealand. So if gender isn't an issue when they cast the vote, the solution then becomes finding and supporting suitably qualified candidates, supporting them both emotionally and financially so that they have the opportunity to be elected. Now, as I've noted, New Zealand has a proud heritage of activism for women. And in the last decade, we've had an enormously strong female leadership. Our first female prime minister was elected in power to my party in 1999, and that was Dame Jenny Shipley. But since then, in the early 2000s, we had dominance of all major countries' leadership. The prime minister was a woman. The leader of the opposition was a woman. The Governor-General was a woman. The Chief Justice and Attorney-General was a woman. And the Speaker of the House was a woman. All at the same time. It was actually a very strong cohort of networked women. And I think we need to focus on networks. And I talk about the old girl network. That's what we need, the old girl network. In my city of Christchurch, we had this person in charge of the council, the woman who ran the hospital system, and the chief police officer. They were all women. So they're fantastic headlines. And there were great achievement for those talented women. And it was all without any quotas. But that's actually not the full story. Today, for no particular reason, for no major failures, only one of those positions is held by a woman. Which indicates to me that progress is lumpy, that things change, that circumstances are different, that talents come at a different time. So I don't support the rigidity of quotas, either. What I think we need is an open, transparent, fair process of nomination, which gives us a balance. Now, we don't want to select on gender, but we want a system that delivers gender balance. My government is really pushing increased participation in board governance roles. Over 50%, or about 50% of board positions appointments by the government are women. So where are the women is a constant cry in our caucus. So if anyone brings nominations to our caucus and there's not enough women, we hold them to account. But only 10% of the directors in private enterprise are female. So the government is leading, but we need to educate business leaders about its valuabilities, how valuable it is to have more women on their boards. And I was interested in the comment before lunch that there was a myth that it was less profitable to have women on your boards. Actually, the research that we've seen is that the diversity that women bring to a board's increased profitability. So rather than focusing on quotas, I believe it's our job, you and me and all the women that are 50% of the population to support each other, to develop those old girl networks, to lobby for, to promote women, and most of all, to reward women when they actually stand as candidates. And I have to say that often women are their own worst enemies. In New Zealand, we call it the queen bee syndrome, where women enjoy being that lone, powerful female and they don't necessarily bring other women with them. I think it's our job to give them a hand up to make sure that we make it happen. Men have known that power of working together, of networking, as we've said in the golf course and in the pubs when we've all gone home to look after our kids for centuries. And we've got to learn it too. And finally, I don't believe in quotas because I don't think they're democratic. Democracy is all about free choice and a free vote. That is the ideal. But I also believe it isn't so important for us to have more women there that the end justifies the means at times. Finally, I think from my point of view in the New Zealand context, parliamentarians, women parliamentarians will only be successful when we're chosen for ourselves, when we're chosen for our abilities, when we're chosen for our talents and we're chosen for our personal contribution. And that's not quota representation. Thank you. Thank you very much, Nicola. That was our last resource person for today. We shall now be opening the debate to the floor. But I just wanted to clarify that the quota is not permanent. These are temporary special measures. Like now, constitution, they have been reviewed every five years. People must be asked, do we still continue? Oh, we abandoned. So they're temporary special measures. That's what the CEDO says. And also, quotas don't mean selection. They're not mean nomination. In some places, actually, elections. So I wanted that to be clear as well. So now, I'll give the floor to all those who'd like to speak for three minutes only. If you watch that clock. Can we please have the names of the speakers again? It's your own program. I'll give them to you. Thank you. You'll be watching that light there at two and a half minutes. The light will come on to show you that you only have half a minute. So on my right is Nicola. I'm Margot James. Margot James. From the UK Parliament. Glorious. I don't know why Glorious has Glorious Hakizimana, which is the second speaker. I think you should come here. No, I'm coming, I'm coming. Then the third is Nicola Watner. They're from New Zealand. So these are people you have to fire your questions at. So now, you can speak from where you're sitting. I think we have two microphones. We have two microphones. Yes. All those who've put that. Members wanted to know the names of the presenter so they can address them. So that's what we are doing. I'm aware. We have not yet come to that. I was introducing the speakers. Then I can open the floor. So we have Honorable Esther Mariko. Tanzania, three minutes. There she is. To be followed by Honorable Hergis. Empty son Hergis of Bahrain. Thank you, Honorable Chair. Sorry. Esther Mariko from, a member of Parliament from Tanzania. I'm in favor of the quota system for the parliament. And this I'll give the, a little bit of experience from my country. Before the introduction of the quota, we hardly had a member of Parliament, a woman member of Parliament in the House of Parliament. Back in 1985, we only have one constitution women. I mean women elected. But after the introduction of that, now as we're speaking, we have 26 women elected through constitutions. And we have affirmative action that is saved from our constitution that have to be 30% of the total member of Parliament elected in that specific year. With that, to me, I support it because it brings those women as a lower model. And after the five years of the term, then they can be in a position to overcome the political, I mean the traditional cultural barrier, economic, that means financing the campaign because they've been that capability. And they get chance to prove the society. Those with a negative mindset about the women that they can perform. And in fact, if you assess from the Parliament, women are doing better than men. And that depicts aside that if we rate that a woman doesn't matter of the gender, but he can present us, she can do better than men. So through that, I said in 1985 we had one, only one woman being elected. But 2010 we had 26 women. And all these women are the ones who went through the special seat, the affirmative action at first. As taking my speaker, the lower model, she first went in the House of Parliament through the special seat. After her first term then she managed to win the election for the sixth Conservative term. So you can see for 30 good years she was being elected. So I concur with the quota system simply because it mowed women and proved to society that a woman can perform better if given the opportunity. I believe that we do have a diversity of cultural belief. In some other country, they go against this, but in particular in my country, I will support this system because of the society. Like for me, in 2010, I was being nominated as an MP through special seat, but come 2015, if I'm invited here again, I'll be a constituent member of parliament. So I'm supporting this to mowed women and make them better. Thanks. Thank you very much, Honorable Matiko. Honorable Imtesan Hajiz, MP for Bahrain, to be followed by Honorable Amal Dirofa of Algeria. Madam Hajiz, where's MP for Bahrain? Their names are here. They're here. She's not here? Okay, Honorable Amal Dirofa of Algeria. Amal is here? Okay. Bonjour. Good afternoon. First of all, thank you very much for inviting the Algerian parliament to have representation here at this conference. My name is Amal Dirofa, and I'm a member of the Algerian parliament. I was elected back in May 2012. I had already some experience. I had been elected in 2002, and I was there until 2007. In 2007, when the lists were prepared for the elections, at the time, there were no very clear selection criteria. So it was never very clear how the lists are made, and it's very much a question of cronism. It's who you know, and it's a question of contacts, et cetera, unfortunately, and there's not much continuity. So little account is taken of parliamentary experience of women. And so from one term to the next term, you see different women. There's a high turnover. It depends on people's goodwill, in a way. So in 2012, there was a new commitment or new obligation on the part of political parties which became law, which meant that today, quotas have to be applied. So for every political party, drawing up lists of candidates, they have to have 30% of women on their lists. It doesn't matter where the women are on the list, unfortunately. And then after the elections, wherever people's women's names were on the list, they will have to make sure that 30 of the people chosen are women. And if a woman has to go, she will have to be replaced by a woman. So I can only agree very much with what was being said before, which is that quotas are a good thing, that positive action, or whatever you call it, is a good thing. If you look at Algeria, if you know the history of our country, and the history of participation of women in the fight to liberate our country, in the fight against terrorism, which we had to fight alone, the role played by women was a huge one. And if you think of justice, profession, the teaching profession, you have up to 60 or 70% of women. So they are widely represented in those important professions. So this is a support mechanism, and it's a right and fair thing if one had waited for things to happen naturally, i.e. a bottom-up for things to understand, realize little by little for awareness to do its work, et cetera, it would have taken ages. And I think that has meant that we have come back to some more normal situation. And it has also encouraged women to go into politics because unfortunately there is a very negative image of women in politics, especially in Arabic or Muslim countries. Just one more moment. There's a very negative image in our countries, and therefore it's got to go both ways. We've got to work upstream and downstream to make sure that it becomes natural and normal for a woman to go into politics, but there's still a long way to go. Thank you. Thank you very much. And the Honorable Christine Hume, MP from Germany, to be followed by the Honorable Alex Boyd, member of the House of Assembly of Dominica. Mrs. Hume. Huma, from Germany. Germany. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation, first of all, and congratulations to New Zealand. But we are talking about human rights, equality, equal rights for men and women, but we also have to talk about power. And I'm sure that men never will give up their power voluntarily, and that's the reason why I'm in favor for quotas. We have a crucial discussion in Germany nowadays about compulsory quotas in politics on the one hand, but especially in economics for women on board. And so I want to give you an example of what quotas can change. The social democrats, I belong to the Social Democrats, sorry, and I'm a member of parliament. They started with a 40% quota in 1988. And nowadays, we have 40% members of parliament, social democrats, women. And the left and the green party, they have a quota of 50%. And they have 50% women in parliament. The conservatives and the liberals, they don't have any quota, and they have 20% women. Can you tell me, please, that women, conservative women, are less capable, less educated? I can't believe it. I think we have the best educated women generation nowadays. So I don't agree with you that we don't have enough capable women. We have enough. We have a list in Europe. I think you know Mrs. Reeding, who is in favor for quotas, the commissioner, and she has a list of thousands of capable women who are ready to take part in politics and in economics. And I tell you, I'm fed up. I'm fed up with 90%, 100% quota of men who nobody asks, well, are they capable or not? They are just men. And I think we have to stop that. So that's the reason why I'm in favor for compulsory, sorry, my English is not too good, compulsory quotas, and we need legislation. And we also need sanctions. I think only legislation will not improve the situation. We have a lot of laws against discriminations, but they don't work because we don't have sanctions. Thank you. Thank you so much, Christine, especially for showing us the 100% quota for the men. Now, Honorable Alex Boyd, Honorable Alex Boyd. Yes, here am I. To be followed by the Honorable Zubeda Bayoud of Morocco. Thank you very much. There you are. Could you, yes. I am unhappy about quotas generally, as I see it as flying in the face of true democracy. But I accept that many countries need quotas as it is the only way women can get a chance at all to get into parliament. I also feel that when I spoke this morning, I spoke about the trickle up and trickle down. I think it is important to get women at the grassroots level to appreciate women candidates. When we will come to that stage, I don't think we would need quotas. And I say this because if you put women, a woman who is well-educated, a top candidate, alongside a man, what you find happening almost everywhere in the world, that is the electorate, both men and women will plumb for the male foes. So that we really have to think about what I say about getting the grassroots women to understand from that level the importance. As in New Zealand, the fortunes of women in politics in Dominica has waxed and weaned. Okay, without quotas, Dominica had a long history of women in parliament. The first woman was elected back in 1940. Dominica has had the first prime minister in the Western Hemisphere. She was elected in 1980. And during her time, when she was prime minister, the speaker was a woman. We had almost every bank had a woman as a manager. Three quarters of the permanent secretaries were women. The mayor of the main city, Roseau, was a woman. I mean, these were very heady days, you know? And now, what are we seeing? Women, I don't know if they become so complacent or whatever it is. We are not seeing as many women in parliament in Dominica. And this is why I think I would like to see us make our mission be to teach women to like each other and ourselves more. And when we do that, we will find that naturally women are going to vote for each other. Women are going to assist each other in going up for elections and that sort of thing. I would like to see this thing happening naturally rather than artificially. Because when it's natural, it lasts. When it's artificial, it does not. Thank you. Thank you, Honourable Boyd. I don't know whether your names are here. Could someone take their names? Because I have a list here. Okay. The problem is to check. Honourable Zubeh Daboyad of Morocco to be followed by Honourable Christine Salonane of Finland. And then we'll come to this one. Thank you, Madame Chair. Thank you, dear colleagues, for those very interesting inputs. But when one is a true Democrat and one is in favour of freedom of choice, one thinks that when freedom is infringed upon, the choice isn't really there anymore. So you might be a true Democrat, but it might be difficult to live democracy and to make it effective with real equality and equity. My country, Morocco, in the 1990s, we had, what, two or three MPs out of a total of 270. After 2002, it was decided through laws. And I know and will agree that laws are not enough. Legislation is not enough to make sure that our aims become reality. There's also cultural pressure. There's behaviors. There's the idea that people have of equality in our countries. Well, in 2002, it was decided to have a quota, on all respects, in political parties. And that was done by laws, whereby 30% of people have to be women. And that's at all levels of political parties, with also funding linked to women being there. Then in terms of the parliament, again that was started in 2002, there was a list of 30 women, list of 30 women for the National Assembly. And then you had lists for regional bodies. So you had regional lists with only 10 women. But for the national list, you had 30 women, and we got the 30 women. Then in 2011, we had legislative elections. And we doubled things. So we've now got 60 women with 30 young women. Because, and young people, young people are often forgotten. Young people are our future, after all, the future of our countries, when it comes to political life. And also to make sure that women are visible, we went for a strategy to do with the different administrations. And there's a law saying that we need to have a quota of 30% everywhere. So we have laws, which are necessary. Unfortunately, in some of our countries, where there is huge cultural pressure at the moment, 60% of doctors are women. But only 16% are business leaders. It remains difficult for women to make it in politics. So in Morica, we are in favor of affirmative action, positive discrimination. And quotas is one of the temporary tools to make sure that women are allowed to play their part politically speaking fully. Thank you very much. Sorry if I was too long. Thank you very much. It was a better. Let me now invite Mrs. Christina Salonen of Finland to be followed by Honourable Shirelesse of Oswana. Finland. Thank you. My name is Christina Salonen. And I'm a member of Finnish Parliament. I'm 35-year-old, and I was born in a country where women has a right to vote or be as a candidate in election already 70 years when I was born, 70 years. So that's the perspective that I'm speaking, speaking when I'm speaking these quotas. Even if Finland was the first country in the whole world where women received the rights to be electoral candidates, it has took almost 100 years that we have a Finnish Parliament, we have more than 40% women in a member of Parliament. So it's a really long road. We don't have quotas in Parliament. So I understand that when you need kind of like shortcut or you need quick changes in your country, you need to take these kind of acts to use as a quota. Actually, we have quotas in local government, and it has improved very much women's participation in politics. But nowadays they do say that there is only few women who are trying to fill all those places. And those few women are just like carrying too much loggitus because we haven't, even if we have these quotas, we haven't managed to get so many women into politics. And so we need to discuss why women doesn't want to be in a politic. Why do they prefer to do something else? And that's a question in Finland. I think that solution, gender equality is not black or white. We need lots of things how to improve that. And it's kind of like a dual way to walk. It includes both specific actions like quotas, but in the same time we need to kind of like mainstreaming the gender politic and provide the places decision making and also in pre-pre-race, and I'm sorry my English is not good either, in the same time. But in the end I have to tell you a story about my niece. Last year we had a presidential election. And this is a story, we had women as a president. And my six-year-old niece asked me, is it possible that man can be a president also? Thank you very much. Can we now have the Honorable Shireleso Boswana, followed by the Honorable Senator Nawal of Jordan. Thank you, Madam Kadaga. It's a long time without meeting. I think we are here in this conference as a democratically elected member of parliament, members of parliament. So we're here to learn to share and differ. I am against the quota. I am going to support. You know my country is the one country that will need the quota. As there are only few women in parliament. But since maybe I am the product of elected, directly elected, that's why maybe I am not, I'm confident that I don't like the quota. Because for me, I like, I want as women to prove that we are capable, we can do ourselves, we can make ourselves. We should teach our women, our fellow women that if I can, why can't you? Because if you are given in a silver platter and we are going to relax, we're not going to do work hard to prove ourselves. We're going to say, I'm happy that it has been reviewed. In other countries it's not. It's always the quota. Women will wait for the elections to be 2014. Women will relax, knowing that they have a quota that will give them a position without fighting for. Now I want to ask as women to be role models of our younger women. Because if we don't, we are going to stay here asking people. The list committee, I don't know who these people are because I am not used to. But some of them, they will put in their friends, women friends, and they will put them in their bootleggers. If you are, maybe you are a fighter like myself, they will never put you into the list because they thought you are a troublemaker. When you get into parliament, you are going to fight against them. You are going to talk against them. You are going to differ with them. My fellow kinds of women that vote for each other. But I'm asking you guys here to go and teach women from the grassroots that they can stand for themselves. Because if you keep on asking, people will always give you, knowing that you cannot do like they did. Did men get in there without asking for votes? They did. Why can't we ask? Now for me, I'm saying women, let's fight for our, let out of the chicken walk. Let's fight for our, for the positions, for to represent people. Because we are voted in by people. We should talk to the people. And men and women should prove, should know that we are, we can do it. We are capable of campaigning. Because for me in our country, we start by primary elections. I'll, for my, if I can speak for myself, I was campaign with these men. I was in the middle class, the only middle class. But I went to the grass to the people. I was, I beat them and I won against them. Because I was going around, talking to the people, telling them what is it that I want to do them, and to them. And I'm also asking myself, because I'm not used to the, the, the, the, the, the, the PR, that I understand you are given a constituency by the party, not by the people. Because by direct election, you are given to constituency by the people, you are responsible for their needs. They will ask you questions. If the development and somehow other things are not getting there. I thank you, madam type person. But I am not, I am against the quota. Okay, for the mixed, maybe, temporarily to put the women, women in, into parliament. But if it wasn't for that, I would say no, let's fight until we get there. Thank you very much. I would like to speak in Arabic. I am from Jordan. Very frankly, if we hear to the experience of people who have come from the Scandinavian countries and say that they don't particularly like the quota system as a primary means of getting to parliament, we have to admit and agree that this was based on a lot of sacrifices and a lot of hard work. But if we talk about a third world countries or developing countries, and those countries are going through a lot of experiences at the moment to rise above the average level, and especially in the domain of women's rights, we are suffering from a legacy that has left to us looking at women as a second class system. Women were not allowed to participate in economy, in politics, or in any other public life activities. So here, we have to make sure that women are aware that they can participate in political life. And therefore, we have to look at the quota as a temporary or an interim measure in order to bridge that gap, the gap that exists at the moment between women and political life. We have to allow the women to prove that they are capable and ready to carry out their role, maybe in a better way than men. Later on, perhaps, we can get to a stage whereby we find the appropriate person for the appropriate post, as we see in many other developed countries. So let's face it, the people who are sitting now at top positions were not put there by the hand of God, they had to earn their place. We are not living in ideal societies. So the quota system is a temporary measure. We have to be realistic. Do we look at it from the point of view of saying, no, we have to follow democracy, we have to follow the norm, and then ignore totally what women are suffering from? We have to look at the priorities. What are the priorities? I think human rights are a priority. We have to look at it in a pragmatic way. In Jordan, and I say this very, very frankly, had it not been for the legislations that stipulated the need for having a quota, women would not have been represented in parliament. So following this legislation, we were able to gain our places via direct election. Maybe later on, after a while, we might be able to get to parliament without resorting to the quota system. Thank you very much. Thank you, Senator. The Honourable Majome, we're followed by Dr. Mohamed Hijaz of Palestine. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Gracely, about four quotas for quotas for the representation of women. My primary reason for arguing for quotas is democracy. I want to believe, Honourable fellow members, that we cannot and should not go about speaking about democracy at all because it is alive unless it necessarily includes gender equality. If democracy is about freedom, why is it that women should be the only group in society that are not free to be represented equally? If democracy is about representation, why is it that women are the only group, the majority group of any populace in the world, that should not have full representation? If democracy is about proportionality, why is it that women, being 52%, at least in my country in Zimbabwe, of the population, why is it that women are the only group in society, the majority of the population, that should be represented by a minority of their representation? So Honourable fellow members, my argument that is that quota systems are essentially and directly about democracy. They are in fact the only way of ensuring that we have democracy in our political systems. And I want to say that it's therefore quotas are a means of social engineering to ensure that we create opportunities for women to be representatives. And that is opportunities for capable women to represent their communities, as well as opportunities for electorates to be represented by capable women. And I want to say that sadly, if we continue to oppose quotas, we are continuing to promote what can be called a gender apartheid. Because we need to debunk the myth of merit. Time and time again, sadly, people say, oh, we should not allow women to get in by quotas. Let it be merit. What merit? Who defines merit? And let us debunk the myth of merit right here. Because of the gender apartheid that there is, we are told that the qualifications women are not elected because they lack experience. How do they lack experience if they have never gotten the opportunity to be present anyway? We are told that women lack exposure. How do they get exposure if we continue to keep them out if we don't create situations for them to be? How, we are told that women do not get elected because they are not in the senior levels of their party membership. How do they become senior members of their party membership if we do not put in place quotas to make sure that they are so? The myth of merit honorable fellow members is that it's not about merit at all. Because merit is as a patriarchal construction. It is constructed presently by men. Presently the standard qualifications for being a member of parliament all over the world are similar in Zimbabwe. The current constitution provides that for you to be a member of parliament, to be eligible for election, you need to be at least 21 years of age, a registered voter, a citizen, and not having been convicted of a criminal offense. Surely in Zimbabwe there are only 17.8% women. But we'll find women, we'll find more women than men with these qualifications. So if those are the qualifications, why is it that women are only in the minority? So ladies and gentlemen, it's not about merit, it's a myth, it's about, it's a patriarchal padlock to keep women out of politics. Therefore we need quotas. And I want to say that maybe finally that I'm saddened personally by women who speak against quotas because with the greatest of respect for them, I think they might be, they must be careful that they are falling into the trap that men want us to get into. So to feel lucky to be admitted into the boys club, to feel lucky that we've qualified, yet the criteria is set by the men, and it keeps women out. And finally, I'm saying that quotas are the only way, because they are the only way of getting women capable, women who work hard, women who have talent to be voted in. Quotas are there to make sure that women take the spaces that belong to them, but are right now held by men by default. I thank you. On our members, it's very interesting that whenever qualifications are talked about, they are talked about in relation to the women, never about the men. Yes, yes, it's always saying, are the women qualified, it's always the women, and yet you have dense men. Okay, Dr. Mohamed. Dr. Mohamed, and followed by Honourable Mehdi Lou. Yes, I speak with the Arabic language. My name, Mohamed Hijazi, I'm a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, with regards to the quota system. Let me say this. We have worked since 1996 on the system, and we have had electoral processes giving equal opportunities to men and women, but we have seen a success of 27 women in the elections. But following a number of debates and talks and discussions with women and representatives of the civil society, we have heard from them that there must be a quota for women, because in Palestine, at the beginning of the workings of the legislative countries, there were quotas allocated for Christians, Jews, as well as men and women. So women as women represent half of the society, they have to be represented with a quota in parliament. And as we have heard from the right Honourable MPs that it is very important for women to participate, and as the right Honourable Groes had also said, we have different norms and different ways in each country that make it incumbent on us to choose the right candidates. And maybe the day will come that women will be able to stand in fair and free elections to fight for her place, the rightful place in the parliament. But what we have seen because of the quota system, more than 20% of the membership of women have gained their seats through the quota system. And we look at it this way. If the different parties would like to put within their systems a way of allocating, say 20% or more for their women, albeit that's all well and good, we don't mind that. And as a proof of this in the civil service legislation, there are very, very important provisions for women because within that civil service legislation, all employment opportunities are offered to both men and women, there is parity, there's no discrimination. In addition, women have other privileges in terms of having extra time off for a childbirth and so on. So we know that in the future, society will get used to the idea that women have equal rights and women therefore will be directly elected without having to fight for their gain. And I must say sometimes we see that women amongst themselves fight for the same position. So it's not a question between men and women, but it's a question of parity, thank you. The Honorable Mary Lou of Gansi to be followed by Honorable Anna Orof Uganda. You know, after the microphone goes, I was with your speaker, the speaker of Botswana in a meeting of women speakers in India, we were discussing how the speakers can support the women's caucus in parliament. So she told us, I cannot talk about a caucus. We have four women in parliament, two are in the cabinet, two are in parliament. So she said, I don't even have a caucus. So it's very important. Yes, Gansi. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I've heard been said this afternoon about quotas and how they would be a temporary system. A question to members on your panel. If you've got a quota system and it's temporary, how can you remove that? You can't have it temporary. You either have it permanently or you have it temporary. The two don't go together because it'd be very difficult to remove a quota system once it's in place. I don't support a quota system personally, whether my colleagues back in Gansi would, I don't know. I believe in full democracy. And we saw at lunchtime the tour of the suffragettes where women fought for a vote. And I think they fought for an equal vote rather than a vote that they would be told who they had to vote for or a gender vote. I do believe that it's important that education helps in this manner. We in Gansi implemented about three years ago a system where it's part of the school curriculum to inform them about government and parliament. And that is encouraging youngsters now to come and sit in our assembly and watch the democratic process take place. An interesting comment from one of my colleagues, male colleagues when I was coming to this conference, said, for women who want equality, why do you have a women's section of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association? That's not equality. Interesting comment from him, I have to say. But so to sum up, as I said, I don't actually believe in having a quota system. I do believe in democracy and I hope democracy reigns for many years to come. Although I do accept there are some countries that do have problems there. But I think if you can start at the school by educating the school and encouraging youngsters of both sexes to get involved, because much has been said as well about the men in our society, the politicians in our society and the men. I certainly wouldn't like to look up to some of the men that are politicians in my government because I think some of those men politicians in our government are not as good as many of the women that haven't even been trained yet. Thank you. Thank you very much. And I invite Honourable Anna Oulu to be followed by the Honourable Haru Samne of Afghanistan. Anna. Thank you Honourable. I want to start when speaking on this issue because I am a product of the quota system. I write Honourable Speaker. I want to support that we should really support the issue of the quota system. Because what? We want to increase the number of women in politics. How do we advocate for increased numbers of women in politics without supporting the quota system? Because we know very well that as women, culturally we have been very much disadvantaged where education is concerned. Therefore we cannot really compete on equal grounds with men who have been favoured in that direction. And also we know very well that if we are just allowed to compete with men without really cutting out our quotas, it is going to be very difficult. Financially we are not equally empowered in the same direction. And yet having the quota system is an assurance of women's participation, of women's presence in the electoral position. Women are able to bring up concerns of women which male MPs will not otherwise bring out. Say in the policies of agriculture, women knows that when you're putting a policy you should consider the workload of a woman. Will men think of such things? They will not. I want really to talk about democracy because many speakers have said if we give a quota system, that means there is no democracy. But these women who come on a quota system elected, they also go through competition. In my country Uganda, in my political party, first of all go for primary elections. Where you compete with the fellow women, there can be six, even 10. You compete, people vote for you, you become the flag bearer. Thereafter you again compete now with the other flag bearers of other different parties. So there is a full democracy there. Therefore, on a right honorable speaker, it is very important to support this quota system. And it increases the number of women because when you have the quota like in Uganda, every district is to send one woman. That's already 111 women in parliament but those who are already empowered, those who first come on the quota system and they feel empowered, they now have money, they have the ability to compete with the men, they go and they compete and they also add to the number of these other women. In that way, we are able to be in the parliament in the large numbers. We have formed a very powerful organization, Uganda Women Parliamentary Association, which really advocates for the concerns of women. Therefore, if we really want to promote women in politics, let us support them to come up, look at the grass root level. When we are given this quota system, we even failed to get women at the local level because they fear to compete. But because it is there, they came up, the other women leaders were able to capacity build them and they are able now to really talk on the behalf of other women. Please let us support the quota system and I'm very proud that my speaker is one of those who came through the quota system and you can see the kind of powers in our worlds in Uganda and in the whole world and you'll not be surprised when she becomes the president. Thank you very much. One of the members may add that the Kenyans have borrowed our system and put it now in their constitution, so in the forthcoming elections in March, they will have at least 47 women from the counties. Yes, so yeah, so it's something we can market. Now, can I have the Honorable Karohe from Afghanistan? Karohe from Afghanistan. Yeah. And then Honorable Khadija, Rousseff, Morocco. Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to appreciate all the statement which came from our sister from Zimbabwe. It was excellent. I'm absolutely agree. Some of our respected leaders had a different opinion against quota, maybe they're living in a different country but as far as I'm speaking from my country, I think country like Afghanistan need a quota system. Maybe as we know about the disadvantage of having a quota, but let's talk that I think quota is an entry point for a woman to get into politics. Otherwise, women will take this only men business, they will never be encouraged to go. So the quota system actually mobilize a woman, encourage women and become an entry point for a woman to get into politics. When you get into a politics, that's truly, truly you'll find a way to be a part of a decision making. Otherwise, none of the men or the society which we are living, they will let us to be a part of any decision making level. And also we are half of the population. I think none of the men could represent us because women have a special need. Who can talk about that? For example, a good example is the maternity health. How do you can better feel us and take about us? So this is the only woman can better understand. And also the society like Afghanistan is an absolutely discriminative society. It's only men in power superior and we are the second class citizen. So how to change the mindset of a man to start to trust woman capacity, capability, commitment is the only way to bring woman through quota system. So it will be, two benefit will come out of that. First, people will start to think about women and will not think that only men could represent them but women too. Secondly, it will be opportunity for a woman to learn. If they never give a chance to a woman to learn how they can like represent or get a experience. And the last point I want to mention is if women like a woman activists or groups they want to share or have a suggestion. Women can better have like it's very easy to have access to women parliamentarian than a man. So I think women deserve to be a part of a parliament but until people get educated and like gender sensitize we need a quota system to bring women to politics. We follow by the Honorable Carl Doug of Mauritius. And finally Honorable Nieleti Modlana. Thank you Madam President. Thank you. Well, I would like to say that there is great injustice which is one that is still there which is the longest in the history of humanity which is the fact that women don't have their place and how come that women don't revolt, don't rebel against that situation. One in three women today is a victim of violence, is beaten up and it's as if that was okay as if it was normal. And I really can't understand how in a country like mine it is still possible that some groups think that God will punish those who accept to be governed by women. How can we get to power in a situation like that? How is it possible for women to make it? In 2009, 53 years after independence we had local elections. There was a quota set 53 years after independence for local elections. We went from 0.56% of representation of women to 12%. And this is a great result, a great achievement because democracy also is about local management and local politics. I think the time has come to say that the countries which do not appreciate and share values such as these ones are not democratic countries. There were still countries that still didn't believe in equality after the Second World War but today surely that is not possible anymore. Equality sometimes is not a value anymore. It's not shared and certainly when it comes to equality between men and women. Now quotas are a temporary mechanism, a temporary tool. They will make it possible for women to get to positions of power and to educate others on values of equity, democracy. Otherwise we will never succeed and we will not succeed in fighting poverty which is also something that strikes women more than men. Aids, again, it's more women. All scourges, all problems seem to target women before men so the problem is not whether we agree with this or not. Should women rebel? Should they try and do something? Should they try and overcome institutions and claim what is their right? Because I think at some stage it will not become acceptable anymore that women are considered second class citizens and that they are excluded from political power. Thank you. Thank you very much, Aditya. I now invite Honorable Kalyanej Djugo of Mauritius and then Honorable Nyelete Mondland. Two minutes each. Thank you, Madam Chair. We seem to be the last few speakers. I'd like to make a reflection maybe. I'd say we women are too cool, too submissive, too naive at times that maybe we do not realize that 52% of the majority of the population that we represent, we are the one who vote for the seat of mail in parliament. It's through our votes that mail go to parliament and maybe we don't realize that these are the part of the seats that could be ours. When we talk of quota we say yes for the quota and maybe no as well. At the same time, in the morning when we were talking of the Westminster Parliament of 1997 there were 100 and it decreased to 60 in 2012 when we're looking at the sex and the party. By party it was from 100 to 60 in 2012. So the question here is, I mean, in most, and after listening to Botswana, I mean through the SADEC gender protocol that's meant to increase. We again see that we are in many parliaments of Africa and in the world. We find first it's a good increase positively and then we decrease for women only. Why not for men? So the question again is, are we going for quota again? And then in some places where there are quotas as well and then all of a sudden it changes to something else and we still find the decrease coming up. Even if the law implements, is it going to carry on being the same? So I feel there's a way like, say we go by quota in Mauritius there's the best loser system of minorities. In parliament when the guy who is the best loser gets up, he's a man, most of them are men. And when they get up to speak the opposition say, hey, get out, get out, you were not elected. You came through the window. So being in parliament by quota means going through the window. So I feel in a way that's why I said yes and no because everything has advantages and disadvantages. Are you going to submit, I mean to hear people right for the five years you are in parliament to say, hey, you were not elected. You were co-opted. All right, thank you. Honourable Modlana. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Recently in the Sadaq conference in Malawi, the speaker of Malawi stole a saying from somebody where he said, well women are 52 or 56% of the world population and for that reason alone they should be sitting in parliament with us and let's not forget that they are the mothers of all the other people in the world. I just would like to say that coming from a country where we had a liberation struggle, Madam Speaker, in 1994 there were only 17% of women sitting in parliament and in 2004 we became 23% and then came the quota system in which political parties decided that, of the two major parties decided that at least 30% of women needed to come into parliament and today the 30% system still remains and we are 43% in parliament. Our speaker is a woman. The two chief whips of both, the strongest political parties are women. The third one being a party of only eight people represented in parliament. We're 43% of women in government and if we were not that number in parliament we would not have passed the law against violence, against women. We would not have passed the law of successions which protects women because the woman would be at number six. Number one, the husband would die, the brother would come, the cousins would come, the parents would come, the cousins would come, I think I mentioned and then the wife comes in at number six. We changed the law because we were sitting alongside our brothers making sure that women's rights are defended and we would not have passed the law on human trafficking where we see our women being trafficked and our young girls every day to neighboring countries especially to South Africa. So I would say, forgive the Pan-Madden speaker that you know sometimes we need to look at these things like a stranded car on a deserted road. That's what not having a quota system feels like. You need to bring another car sand next, bring out your jump starts and turn on that car and get the car on its way or else it will remain stranded. Finally, Madam Speaker, thank you very much. Thank you, IPU for allowing us to have this conference in the presence of our colleagues, the men because having meetings just among ourselves does not work. It's very, very invigorating and interesting to hear the voices of our men and I'm sure that they will reinforce our voices when they get home to their parliaments. Thank you. Thank you. Maybe I'll give one final minute to you, Madam. Just one minute. Thank you, Madam. I am from India. I support quota for women because different countries have different situations and different opinions. Our country like India, the situation is completely different because in India through centuries together, women have been second fiddle to men due to cultural and traditional society. In our society, we need the quota because of that in our country, all the political parties, they are giving reservations to women and mainly they have started reservations from local bodies. It was very effective and so many of the women came into the politics and different type from different fields. That's why we are fighting for the reservation bill. We passed the woman, 33% reservation bill in Rajesh's upper house and we are fighting for the bill to pass in Lok Sabha also because the situations in India, different culture is there economically, the backward area. So many ladies, they are not financially and also economically and also education wise also backward area. That's why in India we are fighting and the situations because of that situations every political parties are asking, women have to be given representation in parliamentary companies, forums and also groups and that's why that's all. Finally, you have given an opportunity that's why I have taken one minute only. Thank you. Thank you very much for all the members from the floor. Before I hand over to the panelists, I wanted to answer Mary Lou's question from Gansi. How do the measures become temporary? What we did in our constitution is to make a provision that it will be reviewed first in 10 years. Parliament should sit and review. Do we still need this strategy? And thereafter every five years. So you can end it. That's how we did in Uganda. Thank you. I want to invite the Honourable Nicola Wagner to start. Then Gloria Sandin Mago. Two minutes each. Ooh. Two minutes. Thank you very much. That's putting me on the spot. I didn't expect that. Ah, okay. Sorry, that's putting me on the spot. I didn't expect that. But it's very interesting for me to listen to what people are saying and there's some very eloquent speeches. I understand that we are all at different types of development, different stages of development in terms of having women represented, women in our parliaments. And I think probably, as I said in my first speech, it boils down that it's so important that our women are well represented that we all have a duty to find a way for it to happen in our countries. And whether it's by quota or whether it's by convincing women to support other women so that it happens or whether it's any other kind of smart way that we can do it. And I do have to say, I think one of the ways that change is happening right across the world is by consumer demand. And if we have consumer demand by our voters for more women, we will get it that way too. So to me, this is a very interesting discussion. It's been important to hear different points of view, and I think probably it doesn't really matter how it happens as long as it happens. Thank you. Thank you for giving me the floor. I was also very surprised by the answers given because really, we all have the same objective. We are all parliamentarians, and the work we are doing is to try and make sure everyone is represented in parliament without forgetting that over 50% of the world population is made up of women. So we don't go into parliament to represent women. We want to represent our particular constituency and people in general. There's something I wanted to say to my colleague from Botswana, if I'm not mistaken. Quotas is a good tool, but the real work is going to happen within political parties. We're not going to go into houses to try and find women to make sure they go into parliament. It's within political parties that the work should happen. In East Africa, for example, we do a lot of work inside political parties. We have a law in favor of quotas inside political parties, and that is where we try and find the best ones to make their names on lists. What we have to do is explain to our male colleagues that women can, are able to, as well as men, I believe, have the same abilities. So we have to work on ourselves first to make sure that women all understand that to be elected is to represent the population at large, the electors at large, not just one self as a woman, but being a woman is a plus, I believe. This morning, I'm sorry I can't remember who it was, someone said she was chairperson, but because she's also a woman, she knows how to listen. I can't remember who it was. I think it was Malawi, the president of Malawi. She's president, she also happens to be a woman, so she's able to listen. I think that's a great quality. We also have to explain that women are as intelligent as men and are as capable as men, but it's also about educating girls to make sure that girls have the same opportunities as her brother, for example. And at the end of the day, the work we all have to do together is to educate, to raise awareness, to make sure we are accepted, but also to accept ourselves in the part we can play. Thank you. Thank you very much. May I add that in my country, the minimum qualifications, apart from citizenship and others, you also have a minimum academic qualification, so everybody must have. So there's no question of saying the women are not qualified. All of us have at least advanced level. Yeah, honorable Margo. Thank you very much. I've learned a lot, and I want to thank the women who spoke about their experiences in their countries. It's been, I decided to pick up on a couple of reflections. I was very struck by the presentations from the women from Algeria, Morocco, and Jordan in particular, talking about the cultural problems and the second class, if not third class, status of women in those countries and indeed in Afghanistan and many other countries in the world. And that I believe is the reason I believe that quotas have a place in advancing the very necessary equality of women in decision making. And I take the point that we hope they won't be permanent. And the woman from Guernsey makes the good point. How do they come to a conclusion? And maybe they come to a conclusion when we have enough women represented. And that makes me think that we mustn't look at these quotas as targets. They are not maximum, they are minimum. And once we go beyond, then is the time when they are no longer needed and I hope we all reach that happy state soon. If I may, I just want to conclude with one other point and that is why as women do, we come into politics, we come into politics to change things for women but also for the world. And I want to take advantage of the opportunity of being in your company in the company of Commonwealth women to make one particular stand for an issue of human rights that I feel particularly strongly about and that is the position of gay people in many Commonwealth countries. If I were a woman in some of the countries represented here today as a gay woman, I would not be allowed to stand even in one of the quota places. So I would appeal to women in countries which discriminate against gay people and indeed have legislation against the rights particularly of gay men to even exist practically to spare a thought for other people who may not be women with our own personal experience of this world, they may be other people who are similarly denied fundamental human rights. So on that note, I would like to thank you all very much for listening to me and to wish you all an excellent conference for the rest of the few days that you're all together. Thank you. I'd like to thank all the speakers but just to comment on the last issue. I was not aware that some countries have on their nomination form, sexual orientation. I was not aware that some countries do have that. But anyway, thank you very much for the presentations. I want to thank the participants for their interesting conversations. I want to thank you very much for making time to be here.