 We were at 630, so we might as well get started. So I'm gonna open the village of Essex Junction Planning Commission meeting for December 17, 2020. This is a revised agenda. Let's see, what are we looking here? So first I would run to anybody. So we've got a couple of folks here that if you're going to be presenting, please sign in. And Mike, I'm gonna do this now before we move forward. So since you're gonna be testifying tonight, would you raise your hand? And if you'd after me, I hear by swear or affirm that the evidence I give in the cause under consideration shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of tertiary. I do. Okay. I do. I do. Excellent. All right. Now, we don't have anybody here in the room with us, but is there anybody on the call who would like to talk about anything that's not on the agenda tonight? Yes, please. Frank and Judy Nath. Hey, Frank. Hello. Go ahead. A couple of things that we'd like to talk about. Take one. And I have no idea on how this fits in with this as a planning or some other board. We have a lot of new neighbors on Park Terrace now, and they have dogs. And there's no green space left on either of the two sites in the Gillicuddy site and the one that's under construction for dogs, bathrooms. Get my point. They use our lawn as their bathroom. And it's wonderful in the morning to go out and get your newspaper and stepping in dog waste. I don't know if that's something that can be put into a future project. The planning thing, if it's some other board, the public works, I don't know. But it sure is a nuisance. And it's something that could be planned into the new projects. So, Robin, do you have anything that you would like to add to the discussion? Well, this is an issue not just for Park Terrace. It's an issue in the heart of the village. It's an issue for the obviously the planning commission. Do it all, Robin. You keep cutting out. I'll try it. I'll take a shot at it for Robin. This is John Alden. I have heard this issue very recently, I think, within the last week on a separate project. And it is a tricky one. It's not a, well, it could be a planning issue in that the planning commission could require adequate facilities for these types of natural behaviors. Or it's really not fair for your alarm to take the brunt of your neighbors. So I think we need to take a look at that and make some provisions for obvious satisfaction for surrounding neighbors. I mean, it's as old an issue as the hills. But when your neighbors are actually not being neighborly and causing issues for you, that's not fair. Yeah, I mean, we see some of them carrying bags, plastic bags. But more often than not, it's where the animal goes, it's where it goes. And we're pet lovers. We have dogs here all the time and cats and. I work for a rescue. Yeah, Judy works for a rescue. And it's not anti-pets, but just. No, no, that's the way we're aware. That's not the issue. It's a completely different issue. And that's totally irrelevant. Your neighbors shouldn't be availing themselves of your green space. Nobody wants to have to put fences up just to protect their own property. And it's something that needs to be addressed. I'll have Robyn figure out who the right person is. I know in the town they have people that are basically sort of pet patrol or just enforcement. And maybe we need to, at least we could call Gabe handy and have him and others and have them put up some notices in their buildings for their residents. But yeah, not fair. If you go into McGillicuddy's lobby, you'll see that there is a sign in there that Brett had put up about dogs' pets on neighboring lawns. If it wasn't ripped down, I put them up, too, and they ripped them right down. So I don't know. But they have a new building that's under construction. There's no green space at all. I mean, it's solid asphalt and concrete, property line to property line. Yeah, and plenty of more urban areas are full of this kind of thing. And somehow they work it out, and we need to make sure that you are not negatively impacted. OK, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it, Frank. And thanks for bringing that to our attention. Judy's got something here that she'd like to talk with us as well. I'm not a good public speaker. And Frank is going to help me with this. I don't like talking publicly. So that's why I rarely get up at meetings. But we've been having some major, major problems with the construction site next to us. Started actually with the senior building that gave handy did, and nobody kind of helped us with it, and it was horrible. And now we're going through it with the building right beside us. We live at Fort Park Terrace, and it's right directly beside us, it's Brett's building. The road gets blocked almost daily. People taunt me when I go out there. The noise is unbelievable. They start early. I have to call the police all the time, because they're starting before 7 o'clock, and the police really don't help us. At this point, we don't know who to call to help us with these issues, because nobody's helping us. I mean, we're the taxpayers and the residents that have been here for almost 50 years, and nobody is helping us. We are getting everything. I have to pick up my champagne glasses have flown out of my hutch, because the vibrating machines next door are so loud and noisy and vibrant all day that my glasses crash to the ground. My pictures fly off my walls, and the glass breaks. We've got all kinds of damage like that, and it just goes on from the entire day, the entire day. I went out there one day. We aren't allowed to go out, because we have chronic illnesses, and we have underlying diseases where we haven't seen our own family since last week of February. But I had a medical appointment that I had to get in my car for, and it was early in the morning, and I was trying to get up to my home right after on Park Terrace, for Park Terrace. And there was a huge truck in the middle of the road, and I was stuck during the time when the kids were going to school, and there was tons of traffic on Park Street. I was stuck with my tail out on the road and trying to get up my street, and I was kind of yelling out the window, please move me a truck. And I got taunted royally by the guy saying, that's not ours. Ha, ha, ha, ha. You have to figure it out. Back up, just back up, lady. And I called the police, and I said, I'm in major traffic. I was near tears. I can't get out of here. There's so much traffic with kids going to school. There's three lanes of traffic on 2A. I can't get out. They want me to back up. They won't let me up to my house. The truck won't move. What do I do? They said they'd send a car. I sat there for the longest time, never saw a police car come. Finally, somebody nice person let me back my way, and I prayed that I wasn't going to get bashed into in my tail end of my car. Got out, and I had to go around and around the block and through McGillicuddy's when I came back down and out the wrong way to get to my own home, and the truck wouldn't move. They laughed at me. They taunted me. And this goes on all the time, the laughing and the taunting and meanness, and noise, and starting early, and me calling the police, and the police not doing anything. I don't know what to do. This is beyond normal. I mean, we are living in virtual hell in this house. And if somebody going to pay our taxes, if somebody going to do something like that to help us out, I mean, what is a taxpayer supposed to do in their own home when things are smashing to the ground and no one's helping and the police aren't coming? And they said, oh, we gave a warning. We gave warnings. We gave warnings. How many frigging warnings does a person need? If I was to break the law, would I get warnings or would I get thrown in jail and get fined first? I'd get fined, and then I get thrown in jail. I've never seen one fine. All they do, nothing has been done. I have no idea who to call, and we are living in hell. And Frank and I are both sick. Seven o'clock is early enough in the morning for their noise to start. But when they start at 6.30 or whenever just to warm up their vehicles and our whole house is shaking, that's just not fair. It's just not fair. And the police say they're going to do something about it, but nothing ever gets done. So what are we supposed to do? Who are we supposed to call? Who is the person that's going to be our support system? Could somebody please tell us? Are you still a little bit older? Hold on a minute. Just a couple of other comments. We're talking about vehicles that are parked on the road, delivery trucks usually, parked underneath the no parking signs. And sometimes right in front of our driveway, well, we can't get out of our own driveway and they laugh at me like, tough, tough lady, tough. That did happen. And we're also talking about seven o'clock starts and but the actual time that we're starting last week was 6.15. But they had special permits to allow for closing the road last week, but nothing about the time. Whoever gave them the permit to dig early never informed neighbors. None of the neighbors knew that they were going to have construction equipment at 6.15 in the morning running, not starting running. I mean, the whole house shaking. It was horrible. So what do we do? How do we get out of our own place? Robin is the enforcement, first enforcement officer or person to go to. And after that, it's the trustees and after that. Wait a minute, I didn't hear you. Could you say that one more time? It didn't come through. I believe Robin is the enforcement, first officer. So hold on just a second. So when we're talking about things like trucks parked in no parking zones and things of that nature, that is definitely a police issue. So you took the right. What about in front of our driveway? We can't back out and they're telling me you took the correct action by calling the police in that instance. In terms of permits and things of that nature, then yes, that would come to the village office, but there's kind of two different issues here. Robin, did you have anything you wanted to add to that? Yeah, I just like to say that anything to do with roads and roads and underground road. It's not a community development issue. It's a public works issue. So those permits were not the issue by the community development department. And David is correct. If somebody parks in no parking zone or blocks the street, that's a police issue. There's no enforcement in the community development department that would enable us to tell a truck to move or tell it where to park or an out to park. In terms of. Robin, I had somebody blocking my park right in front of my driveway last week and I needed it to a hospital. And I said, please move your vehicle. And they laughed at me and they wouldn't move. I had to call the police. While I was there, the cops never showed up. It's terrible, Judy, but that's, that is a police issue. And as you know, Ed and Teach and the chief of police have been involved in this. I've seen some of the emails going back and forth between yourself, Frank and them. And yeah. So who am I supposed to call Robin at six, 15, seven, seven o'clock in the morning? You want to give me a phone number? The police are the ones that are responsible for responding to getting people to ensure. And when they don't respond, what do I do? Cause I called the police. That's what I did. It's a difficult one, Judy. You know, you know yourself that when you called me during the senior building instruction, I showed up on Sunday to see what was going on because it was on their site, but anything off site, anything to do with the public street back into the ordinance, not into violence or any regulations which really control private property, not public property. Then it falls in an ordinance which goes to police and administration. I'm not trying to dodge this. I'm just telling you. I call the police. It's very hard to hear you, Robin, but I did call the police because I was sitting in my driveway and I couldn't get out because that big truck was blocking me and I asked them nicely. I was very polite. I wasn't mean. They taunted me and they were nasty and they laughed at me and they told me just what I could do with it and I sat in my car and I didn't know what to do so I called the police and I didn't see any police officers show up. They said they did, but not while I was there. I can tell you that and I'm not lying. If this is the wrong place for us to be talking about this, just say so and if we'll go to the trustees or wherever we should be going. Yeah, tell them what to do. We just assumed that since we've been in contact with the planning office over other issues contact you first. Yeah, we have no idea because the police nobody's helping us. Nobody is helping us and we are the residents of almost 50 years and this is so not fair. It is not fair, it's not fair. It's not fair. You're correct. It's definitely something that needs to be addressed. I think the the actions that you're taking are correct in calling the police. You know, if I had a suggestion it would be, you know, I certainly would mention it at a trustees meeting. I mean, maybe they have some ideas that we don't to help you. When is their meeting? And can we do this with them too on the phone? Can we talk? Do they do it on the phone like this? Yes. Yep. All right. Well, we'll find out when it is and we'll do the same thing because nothing is working, the police, nothing but we're living in virtual health. I gotta tell you, every single day the only days that we are just one, I love Sundays because they're not here. I will email you and Frank with the next day of the trustee meeting. Thank you very much. Thank you. Just one more comment as we, as I'm looking at some comments here. Diane Clemens. Diane, do you just wanna talk for a minute? Because you had a good- Sure. The next half should call either Andrew Brown, the village president at this point, or Evan Teach. And if it's 6.15 in the morning, then it should be at 6.15 in the morning if the police are not responding. I don't have a phone number, but I did send him an email. They're phone numbers I believe are on the village page. It's kind of a no Wi-Fi or no anything. I was just sitting there late for an appointment, so I didn't really have the time to look it up, but I will do that because Evan has been not helpful at all. I remember in the past, the previous manager and the previous village president, it said call me if the fireworks are getting out of line at one in the morning. So of course, I live in a slightly different neighborhood. So I would suggest that you start adding them to your call list. Okay. I have done that. I will look for their home. I will look for their home. All right. Do visit them at the next trustee meeting. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Excellent point, Diane. Thank you. All right. Do we have anything else on a different topic that's not on the agenda? Okay. Moving on. Robin, do you have any additions or amendments to the agenda? No, I just want to make sure that everybody gets in the form they have to sign. It was sent out with your pocket. Did you all hear that? No. That's for the trustee members. So are the planning commissioners. So we signed them in July or something. I'm not sure why we still have them. Anyway, I'll talk to you offline about it. We got them in our packets. We know we're supposed to sign them. Yeah. My point was... The ethics policy, I mean, you can sign it and email it to me or put it in the mailbox outside the village offices or whatever you want. So my most recent one that I signed is July 15th, 2020, when I was reappointed. So I'm just wondering why it's coming due again already. Maybe it was different because you were reappointed. Maybe people who have been on it, this is the cycle coming back up. People who didn't have to be reappointed. It's just automatic pilot when you were reappointed. Okay. So no other changes? Okay. Next on the agenda, what? I'm sorry? Minutes. Next on the agenda, minutes from the February 20th meeting. Anybody have any comments or changes that need to be made? Nine months ago, I reread them. I had no comment. Nothing struck out. Nothing stuck out, Diane? No, nothing stuck out that it didn't seem like... Things look appropriate. Okay. Do I hear a motion to approve the minutes from February 20th, 2020? Excellent. Second. Second. Okay. Great. We're done with that. Okay. Next up. You don't want to vote on that, Dave? On the... Minutes? It's a motion and a second, but you still need to vote on it. All in favor? Aye. Aye. All opposed? Sorry about that, John. I'm a little rusty. No worries. All right. Next up is the yearly... Is this every year we do this? Yeah. It seems so long ago. Well, it was. So we're going to vote on chair and vice chair. So we will start with the chair. And the way this works is I'll need a motion. But I'm sorry, I'll need a... I'll need a motion. I'll nominate Dave. I'm sorry? I nominate you for president. For president? For president? Wow, I didn't know I moved that back. I bet too many elections going, I guess. Sorry, I'll vote. I'll nominate you to stay right where you are. Okay. Let the record show that John Alden had a motion to keep David Nistico as chair. Do I hear a second? Second. Second. Okay. All in favor? Well, are there any other nominations? Are there any other nominations? Sorry. Thank you. Looks like you're stuck. And I just want to be clear. If anybody wants to nominate somebody else, they're perfectly okay to do that. I don't want... You're not... What am I saying, John? Help me out with this. Other nominations are acceptable. Yes. Okay. All right. So if there are no other nominations, all in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed? Can I oppose myself? Is that possible? But I overvoted, they overruled. Yeah, I'm overruled. Sit down, you're in the chair. All right. Next up, we have vice chair. So, I would like to start with a motion to nominate John Alden as vice chair. Second. Second, yeah. Okay. Are there any other nominations? All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed? Okay. All right, so things stay the same. I don't have to move my seat right now, which is great. Oh, that's right, no one's here, but me. Wait, are you actually at Lincoln Hall? Yeah. Do you think I have this flag in my office at home? And that beautiful color scheme. You've got a camera that's turned on so we can see that. I don't see anyone else with the camera that's actually on. Well, I just wanted you to all see my, you know, my wonderful smile. Yeah. All right. So on to the next portion, we have the public hearing final site plan review for the removal of buildings four and five to construct a residential four story building with underground parking consisting of 24 one bedroom units and 20 studio units at 15 Franklin Street in the MCU district. All right, O'Leary Burke. So I'm going to turn it over to you guys. Now, are you going to turn? How are we going to see you? They're going to share your screen. Okay. All right. You're going to stop sharing your screen and let them share. Do I need, do I need to stop sharing mine? No, you're good. Okay. I think we'll be good. The name's Brian. O'Leary Burke, civil associates. Every day in 222. Can whoever's presenting please speak into the mic? Just barely. At least there's no echo or squelch now. We're working on it. It might be a volume issue. Is he in Lincoln Hall as well? Yeah, he's right across the room for me. We're trying to avoid the feedback. Is Evan, or is Robin on his phone? No, he's sitting over there. Hey, Tommy. Hi, Robin. I'm trying to help you guys out. Thank you. Thank you very much. So yeah, anybody who's got any type of microphone in there is going to have to turn it off so that the person who's speaking is the only one that has mics on, whether you're on your phone or laptop or whatever, and then you can maybe give that a try. And does that person need to share the screen somehow? Can everyone hear me? Yeah. Okay, so this is a proposal for a development, Riverside in the village, located on Park Street, just south of the five corners. It's on a 27.85 acre parcel in the mixed-use district. We are proposing to remove two existing buildings called Building 4 and Building 5. The proposal is to add a 36-space parking lot in a new 44-unit apartment building. The new building will be connected to water and sewer, municipal connections. All the stormwater generated from the new building and parking lot will be treated on site. We are asking for a parking waiver for the new building. We currently have 768 spaces within the development. 695 of them are being proposed as part of the project The total required parking for the development based on the new units and what's there is 768 spaces, backing up a little. We are proposing 695 spaces. We performed a parking count in June of 2019 during a period of no vacancy and the study turned out a required parking of 1.32 spaces per unit, which would require 584 parking spaces as part of the development by strictly the parking count. We're proposing, as I said, 695 spaces. So it's a net increase of 111 spaces further than what the parking count said was required within the development. The proposed building is proposing underground parking 24 parking spaces. And it's very similar to the building just across the proposed parking spaces that's called building D. You can see the proposed building is outlined in red and in a darker tan color. Hey, that's Brian. And the building D was just approved in November of 2019 and this building basically mirrors that building. And Brian, can I hold you up for a second? We're not seeing anything that you're talking about. I would like to get into the staff recommendations for approval. Brian. Hey, Brian and Robin, who's running what we're seeing on the screen because we're still looking at an agenda and you guys are talking about drawings. Oh, we have a plan on the screen. Hold on a second. I know the issue. Brian, did you share your desktop or the file? Because if you share the desktop, they'll be able to see whatever you put up there. Ah, perfect. We got it. Brilliant. For all of you in attendance, I just wanna point out that this is the first online meeting that the Village Planning Commission has had. So we may have a few technical difficulties. Moving into the proposed approval conditions, skipping all the way down to number 16, it says the applicant shall provide confirmation that adequate capacity exists in the existing sewer pump station to accommodate the increased flow anticipated as a result of this project. And we would just like to point out that this project does not flow to a pump station. There is one located along Franklin Street down by the southern end of the project by River Street, but this particular building flows gravity to a concrete main that runs through the property. So we request that condition 16 be taken off, be removed. The next one, number 18, the plan should be revised to depict the location of topsoil stockpiles. This was a comment that the Village Engineer had and we did revise our plans accordingly. And we do show where potential location for filled stockpiles should be located during construction. So we ask that it 18 be removed as well. Number 19, we recommend additional lighting along the new sidewalk on the north side of the new building. I'm just gonna bring up the lighting plan. So if you can see my cursor, what's being recommended as increased lighting is along this northern sidewalk of the proposed building. Brian, can you kind of center it? Because I'm only seeing half of what you're showing here. I think that's just what the plan looks like. It's zoomed in a little. Okay, good. So the area in question is right along this sidewalk that's running just north of the proposed building. We have the lighting levels pretty low at that area. And the reason that they're so low is the first story units of the new building are eight, 10 feet away from the sidewalk. So it's our preference to keep the lighting levels low along the sidewalk to not interfere with the units on the first floor of the new building. So I will just bring up the site plan. We were looking at an overall plan right off. Give me a second. Okay. So the proposed building shown in a dark tan shade, the new parking lot and the new entrance ramp to the underground parking garage are all shown in a dark gray shade. The existing sewer connection is right where the old building was connected. The water service from the old building is going to be reused for this building. All the stormwater on the site is treated in the Southern just south of the proposed building in a stormwater treatment area. Gonna bring up an elevation of the building. So the building elevation should look familiar. It's pretty similar to the building D that was just approved, like I said, in November of last year and pretty similar to the other river side of the village buildings. You wanna talk about it all, Mike? Hello. Hey Mike, looks great. Hello. Hi guys. No, there's nothing really different from in details of all of the rest of the newer buildings at river side. It's the same siding, the same roof pitch. The porches are slightly different, but same color, the underground parking is in the same area as building D will be. No, I think it's virtually the same building as we did in 2000 or we approved in 2019. Thank you, Mike. You're welcome. So any questions for the applicants? I had a couple I'll leave off if you don't mind. So I'm a little confused by a couple of things. One is why are we building so much additional parking if the studies suggest that we're already substantially over parked? I can understand building the parking under the building because this is the only chance to do that. But are you building the surface parking to go with it because you feel like you need more surface parking or what are you trying to tell us here? You're 100. John, so the reason for the additional parking is a lot of the new buildings being constructed are one bedroom units. And it's developer's preference to give each unit a specific marked space. Now, a lot of times it's not used or sometimes it's not used, but it's their preference to at least give each unit one space of the new buildings that are being constructed. All right, that's a good answer. And I'm also trying to understand the whole lighting thing. So you guys have lighting shown, you've got the foot candles shown, the village staff report suggests that there should be additional lighting and I'm trying to figure out if that's, is there a standard we're trying to meet that the plans don't meet or do you just feel like there ought to be more lighting and this is a question for Robin. John, the village standard is 0.2. You'll see the peripheries of the building that's met or exceeded. But when you get to the middle of the building the side where the parking is going, the surface parking is going, it's 0.1 along the portion of that building. Yeah. Side starts at 0.6, then it comes down to 0.1, then it has to get to 0.2, 0.4, 0.7. So the figures in black rather than the ones in red. So the ones in red are okay and the ones in black right next to the building. So what have I got there? Areaways, are those? What are the boxes with the Xs on them? Those are the balconies. Those are the balconies. And so is there lighting, maybe this is for Mike, is there lighting in the balconies that will supplement if they're on? And do you have a sidewalk all across the front of it? I would think that we'd want the sidewalk itself to be illuminated. I'm swayed by the notion that you don't want to overlight the spaces that might be being privately used like the first floor balconies. But I don't know, I think we need to get to 0.2 there. Do you want to address that, Mike? He might be able to hear you from Mike. Yeah, he's the one I'm talking about. The balconies along that north side do have lighting that's controlled by the tenant. So not necessarily all those lights are on at once. But there is a problem, depending on, I don't know what the height of these lights are, but they certainly, if they're too bright, that first floor along the north side is going to be kind of bright. Yeah, and we don't want more light. I'm just thinking that, I don't know, maybe a couple of well-placed bouldered lights or something that has been mounted on the balconies below the floor level that would not bother them if it was on. That might work, John. Yes, actually it probably would look a little better too. You know, nobody wants to, I mean, I have a, I had a neighbor move in recently that maybe readjusted the floodlights on the driveway, which was great for him, but shines right into my house. So we had a little discussion and everything's fine now, but I know what you're trying to avoid, and it's really important, but there is a sidewalk there. You guys can put something on the face of the wall down so that the sidewalk gets illuminated properly, but it doesn't bother anyone that would be on the sidewalk. Okay, so we're going to ask for ballards and we're going to bring the sidewalk. It could be mounted on the deck. Yeah. On the face of the deck with the shield. Yeah, and there's three 24 foot decks along there. So I think, John, it's a good idea. We could put it off the. You may only need to do the middle one and maybe something on the side of the west one. You know, to actually make the foot candles work, but if you want to balance out the facade, you may have to stick one on the other one too. It's up to you. We can do that. Condition, yes. I'll also say on the recommendations, staff recommendations, number three, accessible parking spaces, to meet village code, I will just remind everybody that the state and federal requirements will also apply and will supersede the village code if they're more stringent. So we should just make a note of that. And I have no further comments. Who else, anybody else have questions? Yeah, this is Phil Battalion. So I'm not, hey, I'm not an architect or a designer, but piggybacking on the lighting issue. I know I've seen some like lit benches that are lit from underneath. So maybe one or two of those could provide some sort of like a dual use, adding some light below, lower down, lighting the sidewalk. And then our lights in a wall there, I'm not sure if that's what John was talking about, but if there's a wall there below the eye line, or below the windows, also I don't know, maybe some sort of suggestion for that, for getting to that point two level. Yeah, so I think we have a few options, whether we pick a different light fixture on the pole mounted lights on the other side of the parking lot, or maybe a ballard light or some lighting on the wall. I think we can submit a revised lighting plan when we go to pull a zoning permit that just make sure we have at least point two along that sidewalk, if that works for everybody. Fine with me. Good idea Phil. I would say that if your concern is for the tenants and their light hitting in their apartments or the balconies, then something lower down would make sense to me in that revised lighting plan. Yep, definitely. Other questions? Yeah, I've got a couple of questions. This is Patrick. I wasn't part of the planning commission when building D was approved. And as I'm hearing you all talking and looking at it, it appears that building D and the current proposal are essentially mirrored buildings of each other both with 44 units in a mix of one bedroom studios. Is that correct? Yes. So my questions are also kind of around the two buildings that are scheduled for demolition. They are currently full of two bedroom apartments and being replaced by one bedroom and studio apartments. And curious, I mean, I understand you guys own and develop, have developed all the buildings in this property area development area and have been, I don't know, too much of the history but I understand that buildings have been kind of scheduled for demolition. I was just curious if you could speak to if the current state of those two buildings scheduled for demolition and what necessitates them being completely demolished in and why we're replacing two bedroom units with one bedroom studio. Do you want me to do a quick question? I mean, I just, you know, we, just a couple of comments. This project is obviously a stage project. So, you know, it's being, the new buildings are being built in stages. And this is one of those examples. And I'll let Mike speak to that, but it's kind of, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is market driven. This is what people are looking for in terms of rental space and things of that nature in the area. So that kind of goes to what they're doing. But I'll let them talk about it. Well, I'll just add, the building, the existing building was originally a dorm and it had four or five bedrooms surrounding a kitchen living area. So years ago when they were purchased, we went through them and tried to make them as efficient as possible. And we've come to the point, the buildings are old. They don't really work the most efficiently, you know, with their heating and such. And the layouts, the demand today are layouts that we are building. And these buildings are just, they're 30 years old. And they're not efficient either in their performance or their marketability. So. No, for sure. Thank you. That didn't come out in some of the reports that I see that the existing buildings were that age and that their current layout is not suitable for additional rehab. Nope, that makes sense. You know, and just in terms of the current market demand that you guys have stated that the current market kind of pushes towards these one bedroom and studios, you know, I think it's worth noting that as I believe, my personal belief, that part of what we need to do as a planning commission and as a village is just, as it's stated in our housing needs assessment in our village plan to promote a wider range of home sizes and provide a variety of housing opportunities. Seeing a lot of one bedroom and studio is currently being built around the village. You know, I just, I fear saturating the market and that and then 15, 20 years from now there as those individuals age and look for new suitable housing that won't, it won't be there and we're gonna be kind of forced to demolish what we're building. So, I mean, I don't know if it's possible around constructing our architectural design. I'm sure you guys have already put a lot of work into it to get this far, but just in terms of adaptability, you know, if we're, if we're building one bedroom, studios, what's, you know, can the building be rehabbed in the future? Is there that opportunity to meet a market demands that might come in 10 years, four, two bedroom, three bedroom, potentially family housing that we'd, I would like to see more of built around the village. I know it's a tough question and I don't know if there's a good answer, but I just, just wanted to voice the opinion that I've been seeing a lot of one bedroom studios and in my experience, family housing and three bedroom, four bedroom units tend to be filled just as quickly as one bedroom and studios. So, thank you. Thank you, Patrick. Other questions, comments? Yeah, I have some questions. This is Diane. Go ahead, Diane. Okay, so I'll stay right up Monday morning at 10, 10.30. I went for a walk around the buildings and just to see how things were laid out. And I wanted to see what the parking was all about. I could see where the 24 spaces that would have been with what was used to be building D or what will be building D, that the only spaces that seem to be open were the ones that might've been associated with that building. So I did that account of various parking spaces and I would say that at 10 and 10.30 on a Monday morning, I was surprised to see that three quarters of the parking spaces except we're building D and building 15 or 15 Franklin here where the only spaces, places that didn't have any things really parked up. So I was meeting a lot of people who were working from home whereas they aren't going to work except maybe from their home office. So that's just letting you know on that one. The other question I have is on the, yes, I do wanna know where the heck that sewer is going because I couldn't really tell from your provided drawing as to you're telling me it's gonna go downhill and I'm kind of looking at it going, no, it really is gonna have to go to that pump station with down on river. So I would like to see that delineate and clear on the future drawing so that there is no discrepancy on that one. And yes, I understand about the topsoil but I would like to see is some notations as to where snow's going, get this good good example of the day where did this snow go? Because you're gonna have buildings and parking spaces and parking spaces where you would probably be putting snow today. So where is that snow going? I have more questions. Did you answer that one for me please? So there is some snow storage space on the south end of the building. There's some snow storage space along the existing driveway. And then as any more densely populated area you'll find it to be hauled to different spaces throughout the development. Okay, so there is a plan in the works to make sure that it's out of the way? Yes, everything will be plowed. Okay. Do we wanna have that shown on the drawings just as a general rule? Yeah, I can put a few snow storage areas. I can label a few. Yep. All right, thanks Brian. Yeah. Okay, now I did note that there is a bike rack on the diagram at 15 Franklin Street but I did not see one for building D. I'm assuming there's going to be one. But if there isn't one there, it should be one. And speaking of bike racks, I would like to see a bike rack in that down below the building parking area because that I see as being a requirement with the ramped bike thefts that are seen to be in the village at the moment. It would be nice to have the renters to have a place to secure their bike, especially if they're not gonna be using a car. Hey, maybe this is for Mike. Maybe it's for Brian. Is there bicycle storage or tenant storage bases planned for somewhere? And is there bike parking underground? I think Diane's right. Normally an outdoor bike rack is for visitors and there needs to be some other provision for the actual tenants to have their bikes or things that don't fit in there. I mean, you can bring your bike up to your apartment but most building owners are trying to provide some storage space or something where you can put a bike and lock it up and have it secure. So we are thinking of, or we were going to add underground bike parking. You see the, if you can see my cursor, there's an X-Tof area underneath the building that isn't counted towards the 24 underground parking spaces. And that area has been reserved for bike parking, mechanical, you know, and other things like that. There's some pretty ingenious bike racks that mount the walls and do other things that I've seen in a lot of apartment buildings. So maybe you guys can, you know, look for some of those things. Yeah. John, up in the northwest corner of the proposed building, you see a smaller X box. Yep. Yeah, that's reserved for that too. Nice. Yep. As you come down the stair, that stair tower, it's right at the bottom. Very nice. Thank you. Excellent. Diane, did you have more questions? I thought you might have had some more. Well, I liked the bench lighting idea that Phil has brought up. I was wondering if things could not be, you know, either mounted on the building since everything has to be downward facing anyhow. My concern is that if the applicant is concerned about the tenants in 15 being hit with the light, the poles that are across the way next to building D might indeed be hitting somebody on the third floor, if not the second floor, because they're close to being on par or close to it, that somebody on the fourth floor probably isn't going to see it because the pole isn't high enough that it would be downward shaded. So I've seen recall that the lighting for building D was on the street itself. So there wasn't an issue about the sidewalk. Does that sound familiar? Yes, the poles for building D on the northern end of it were located in between the building and the sidewalk. So they're being directed away from the building. And the two lights being proposed next to the new parking lot will be down shielded. You know, we're not worried, really worried about, you know, getting people in the second story. We were more worried about the illumination along the sidewalk for the fourth story ground floor close. And the poles are only 16 feet high also. And all exterior lighting in the village has to be dark sky compliant. So we need to meet that standard. All set with that, Diane? Yeah, I'm set with that. Okay, cool. All right. Anybody else? Yes, I do have one more question. This is Phil Battalion again. I was wondering if there, it didn't see it in the plan at all. Any plans for electric vehicle chargers? I know that was something that we asked in February, the last thing we approved of was to have electric vehicle chargers. And I personally would like to see that in plans coming to the village. Yeah, so that we will be providing electrical vehicle charging stations. Act 250 actually requires it for a building of this size. So we'll definitely be meeting the Act 250 requirements for EV charging stations. Great, thank you. Yeah. Good point, Phil. I don't have a plan because I wanted something for the implementation of something. Any other questions? Okay. Robert has something that he would like to... Yeah, I'm looking at the landscape architect. I'd just like to raise the fact that looking at the landscape plan, I don't think it meets the 2% requirement for the line development code. And you can see in the staff report and the recommendations. I recommend that if they don't meet the standard, they can go over to Bob where it costs them to meet the 2% standard. You come to the village for landscaping in the Village Centre District. And for those of you who are newer members, this is something that we started doing how long ago? Three, couple? Five years ago? So I think it's a great initiative and it helps with some of the tree planting and things that we like to do around the village. So yeah, with the Connector Road, the B-Trans standards, although complete streets is one, another one that seems to contradict it is the amenity standards that B-Trans have. They will not provide funds for benches or trees along the Connector Road. So we're really looking for funds to make up the difference between that and what the B-Trans are gonna get us for the Connector Road. We do have a landscape plan for the Connector Road in place that's been seen and approved by the Tree Advisory Committee. So we're working towards getting funds to enable that to happen. Yeah, we're fine with that. We've done that, as Robin said, over the last few years for some of these buildings. So that's fine. Excellent. All right. Does anybody have any other questions for the applicants? At this time, do I hear a motion to close the public portion of the meeting? Now, have we heard from the public yet? Are there, was that a request for public comment? I'm sorry, you know what? I didn't even see if there was anyone else on. Hold on, let me just check. I can't see everybody at once, so my apologies. Is there anyone in attendance that would like to ask a question of the applicant? And I'm not sure I see anybody here. I'm going down the list. I don't believe I see anybody. So I'm going to... All right, I'll make a motion to close the public hearing. Do I hear a second? I'll second. That was, who just seconded? Is that Patrick? Thank you, Patrick. All in favor? Aye. Aye. All opposed? All right. So discussion time. You guys can probably turn off your mics at the very least. I mean, do you want to be able to see stuff? I don't have any further discussion. I was ready to make a motion based on the five or six points that we have raised. And but if anybody else has more to talk about, I'm happy to wait. Yeah, I mean, you know, my, I'm kind of with John on this. It's, we've been watching this project for a while now. And it's actually been very well, in my opinion, very well done and planned out. So I actually don't have any more questions at this time either. But if anybody else wants to talk about anything, please. Just a quick question, David, when you say you guys have been watching the project for a while, you speaking specifically to this proposal or the entire development? The entire development. So it's been, again, as I mentioned before, this has been a stage project. So it started with the buildings. I'm sure you're familiar with the area that faced the street and it's been going on since then. Okay, thank you. Sure. Anybody have anything else they wanna talk about or discuss? I guess my question is, is there, they're asking for a parking waiver. This is Diane. Yep. And I don't really see any place on here that should the parking demand increase because each tent indeed has a car. And knowing people will only walk a certain distance. Then having XX spaces at either end, I can't see somebody at this unit, number 15, and walking all the way down to nine fuller place at the senior housing, where they might have a few spaces to get to grab a space on a daily basis. Although it'd be great for their health. I'm just kind of wondering that if indeed the parking waiver isn't sufficient, okay, that indeed needs to be altered because parking demand is increased, that should we have something in here that says that they need to meet demand if it appears? I don't think that's unreasonable. It turns out that their study missed something that I think is reasonable for us to ask them to increase the parking if the study turns out to be flawed in some way or other than just, we can check again. We could look, sometimes we put something in it that says, after 50% occupancy, study shall be done to see if that parking meets demand. Something like that then. Yeah, something of that nature. I mean, I'm hoping that they're correct, okay? But I would like to see this be successful and knowing that people will want to have a space if they need it. It should be there where it should be a combination. Otherwise they'll probably gonna lose business. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem with that. I mean, you could even tie it into the requirement for the traffic study at 50% capacity. My main concern is I always like, and you guys have heard me say this before, I always like it when we can cut down on the hardscape. So I would like to give it a chance and then come back and revisit it if there's an issue. We're all hoping that after COVID, the parking issues will go away and you won't have a full parking lot at 1030 in the morning. Right, yeah. But the point well taken in many cases, we see a location identified on the plan as future parking and then the village or the municipality is given the right to require that to be built out if there's a problem. So I think that can all be written into a note that ties it to the parking study or the traffic study. And they can identify some locations where that might be possible. And Diane, I'll tell you that, if you're coming into your apartment complex and you'll park wherever you have to if your spots are full, you'll just keep going until you find one. I understand that, John, but they have parking spaces that actually have numbers on them. It's not just free form anywhere. You have to have an assigned space. And my concern is that people actually post COVID, they actually get to associate with people again and they might actually have people over and they'll need parking spaces because they're friends of a visiting but they're friends. So I mean, in all seriousness, I've been in apartment complexes where it's like, here's my designated space and it's parked up and here's my designated space for my visitor. If I have one, that one's also parked up and I worked for somebody and I was supposed to park in their space. Well, they didn't have a car because they were blind. I was the driver. So there should have been a space for me to park. So human nature being what it is, how far will you go or will you start taking the handicap spaces? Although I will sit in my visit, those handicap spaces that were full had tags on them and people were doing an excellent job at allowing the people who needed them to be in them. Yeah, I think it's a good point. Go ahead, John. Well, we're constantly trying to balance over paving against real demand and so those are all great points. I think what we're trying to do is provide for some flexibility. I would love to see a plan that actually had designated visitor spaces or something that weren't numbered and weren't assigned to a particular unit and some way to know where those were because there will be visitors and there will be times for whatever reason that the parking is a crunch. So I think... If you're doing business spaces, I'll ask them to call them out more clearly. Yeah. You know, scattered throughout whatever but I think our job is to say, you know, they've done a study. They've shown that the current parking demand is well below what they're proposing. Yes, the mix of unit types is slowly transitioning to more singles and studios in most of the projects that I'm aware of and that we've done. The one space per unit is a minimum. You know, it's just... There may be people that have no car but there may be somebody with a friend over. So it's all gonna balance out. Our job is to make sure it's flexible enough to be able to accommodate a changing need in the future if that becomes necessary. Yeah, that's right. My concern is that as the economies of such, that even though these may be studios and one bedrooms, that doesn't mean that there are two people living in that unit and those two people might each have a car. So making the assumption that there's only one car per unit may not be a reality because having kids that are looking for apartments, I can see how there would be two people living in each of those one bedroom apartments. That's why the study is done and that's where you come up with an overall load and the overall loads that are in the parking manuals now are all looking at shared conditions and staggered times and who's at work and who's not. And it all comes out in the wash. Nobody's saying that you won't have a problem at some point. What we are saying, I think as a planning commission is, tell me what your plan is for when you have a problem and make sure you can accommodate it. At the end of the day, their interest in satisfying their own parking demand is much greater than our desire to make sure they have enough spaces. They need spaces to satisfy their clientele or they'll have trouble renting. So we're also, this is one of those projects that falls in every ding, ding, ding category you can imagine it's on a public route. It's on a transportation line. It's close to walking the downtown for everything downtown as extension. It hits every bell and whistle you could imagine for clustered and concentrated development. And you gotta trust that that is a good thing and that people aren't gonna have lots and lots of cars. This is a special place. It's in the village, within the village center and you need to make sure that you can be aware that it's not suburban. It will not behave like a suburban location. If they wanted a suburban location, they're gonna go farther away from five corners. Yeah, I think you both have valid points and I think that's why and to, you guys may not have heard this, but Mike and Brian just mentioned that they do have designated visitor spaces in their parking lot right now. So and I think we can put the proposal out there that we don't want the hardscape. We wanna try to do without it, but at the 50% occupancy, we take a look. Hey, John, I'm just thinking when we approved autumn pond, they had to show an area where they increased their parking provision in the future if it was necessary. It might be who of us to ask this applicant to do the same thing, to modify the plan to show an area that could accommodate increased parking if their studies showed to be flawed or if... That's what I'm saying, just show us a potential parking area, but I gotta tell you, most of the studies that are out there now about transportation are suggesting that people won't own cars. They're not gonna be something that you have, two and three of sitting in your driveway. It's just not gonna be like that. And as little as five or 10 years, you won't have a personal vehicle. Especially if you live in a relatively concentrated urban environment. Correct, so... But Felton Brace would have us asking to show an additional area that could accommodate more cars if it turns out to be necessary. I think that's worth asking for, yeah. So the choice is we do the waiver and then we put the conditions in, correct? Yes, that's my preference. Yeah, so... I'm in favor of that as well. I do have a question about the development as a whole. Go ahead, so... And from their letter, they mentioned 442 units as the no vacancy scenario. Is that their plan for the development as a whole? It's 442 total units. I think at the moment that's the plan, but if your plan's changed, life's dynamic. Sure, yeah, I was just wondering as you guys have seen this starting up, I'm just not familiar with their overall goal for the development. So that number of units is for the full build out? Yeah. Okay, all right. Good question. All right, so what we need to do if there are no other topics of discussion is we need to get a motion on the waiver for the parking first. I'll motion to approve a waiver for the parking. Is that Phil? That was Phil. That was Phil, yeah, sorry. Do I hear a second? Yeah, I'll second that waiver for the parking. Patrick. Patrick, thank you. All in favor? All in favor. All right. Aye. All opposed? Okay. All right now, is there anything else that anybody has questions about? Robin, do you have anything you wanna add? I think there are some things about we wanna change the, yeah, we wanna modify the recommendations. For example, number six, we wanna add something about the fifth-gen occupancy study also including the study of the available parking and if it's appropriate, the demand. And we could also tie that into the fact that we're asking them to show before they get their zoning permit, additional space for any parking that may be needed once the study's done. Correct. That sound good to everybody? Yeah, that sounds good. Okay. Yeah. All right. I'll go on my pet one about the landscaping. 2% landscaping. Isn't that one already in there? That's number 11. Just wondering if we need to beep it off, but I think it's fine. No, I think it's fine. It's pretty straightforward. We need to recognize that number 16 and number 18 have apparently been satisfied, which I'm... Check number 16 with the village engineer, just confirm. Okay. Yeah, so I would be, I'm fine leaving them in there as written and somebody can just check them off that they're done and we're fine. Yep, okay. Number 19, we talked about adding additional lighting low to the ground to bring the sidewalk up to the required 0.2 foot candles. Yeah. Yep. Yep. We addressed the bicycle rack situation to everybody's satisfaction. Yes. Bike rack, bike rack, bike rack. Bike rack. Within the underground parking, we told them for two locations. Correct. Do we need to have that noted? Yeah, it should be noted on the plan prior to the permit approval. Correct. And what about the charging? At some point is the... Sorry. Electric vehicle charging. Steve, is that you? Yeah, that was me. Go ahead. I was just gonna say real quickly while we're thinking about this. At some point, we need to... We should really look into establishing some sort of minimum bike storage requirement for some of these buildings. I mean, we have minimum parking. At some point, we should come up with some number so we can say, yeah, it does seem adequate or no, that's not really... That's not gonna cut it. Yeah, good idea. That is a good idea. Pretty common in surrounding communities, Burlington and South Burlington, for example, have fairly rigorous requirements. So we can maybe not need something quite that heavy, but I think that's a good idea. Yep. Excellent idea. Let me note about that, Sean. And we also wanna put something in about electric vehicle charging. The applicant said that Act 250 will make them do it. Do we wanna say electric vehicles charging per Act 250 requirements? Just so it's in there? Can I show on the plan? Yes. Is it possible to show on the plan where they're proposed? Are they gonna be underground parking, surface parking? Is that true? Do we need to go that far? Yeah, why not? Again, we'll make it, it has to be on the plan prior to permanent approval. Yeah. Just like with the bike racks. Yes. Is that everything? I have the one more on staff recommendation number three. Just expanding the accessible parking spaces to meet village code, comma, state and federal regulations. Sorry, John, where's that guy you were mentioning? Thank you. Yep, okay. Did I miss anything? Did we miss anything? That was, that's everything on my note list. All right. If there's nothing else, do I hear a motion to approve or deny the, excuse me, application? I'll move that we approve the application with the amended list of staff requirements. Do I hear a second? Second. Who was that? Steve? That was me, Steve. Thank you. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed? Okay, the motion carries. Thank you very much. Thank you gentlemen. Thank you. Same to you. Okay, before we close it out, are there any other items, either Robin or anybody else that you guys would like to go over quickly or bring up? When I was, sorry, this is Phil. When I was reviewing the minutes from the last meeting in February, we had talked about railroad in Maine, and I was wondering if we had an update on that project at all from Robin? We do not. We sort of still get a little bit because of the virus and if you're in your business. Sure, absolutely. We don't have to bring it up to standards. We went back, the architect who just left is the one that did the original design for him. We've looked, John and I looked at several pounds. We've come up with something that keeps the profile and the detailing, but we've got some big necessary things to change the color of the study they put on, which was incorrect color. It seems to be a way to reach a happy medium that we get to building, to be architecturally, what was approved, the colors. That's the last place we were at it, and we haven't really taken, we haven't been pushing people, you may be struggling just to stay open, but that's something that we need to keep getting our attention because it's really not what was before, and I did give them a temporary CO based on them bringing it up to the standards, or as close as they could to the standards that were approved by the planning commission, and we're still at that point. They really need to make it right. Sure, that sounds good to me. I want to say like, I think we should be sensitive to our local businesses that might be struggling, so I see that and just make sure that this stays on our radar, continuing into next year. Bring it up, I should have said something, thank you. Yeah, I do appreciate that, Phil. You know, there are two sides. It's very challenging right now, but I do appreciate you reminding everybody that this is something that we need to take care of. Anything else? Yeah, somebody had written in looking for an update on the, what the hell did they call it? We did a study between the village and the town on the planning commissions and whether they should merge. I think it was thoughtful growth in planning, which was one of the heart and soul topics. And that kind of got left on the back burner for a better part of maybe more than a year and it's been recently resurrected. There was, with the village town merger boat happening, there was a lot of energy around, oh, what's gonna happen just before the election day vote, election day vote, which in case you're not paying attention, the village voted for merger and the town did not have it on the ballot. And there apparently still some minor things that the town was not comfortable about the way the charter changes were written and so they couldn't get it on their ballot in time to vote. But my understanding is, and I think I was, we were all invited to a meeting with the town, the village, the planning commissions, everybody where they tried to explain what was going on and I guess I'm still not quite sure we know. I think what we think is going on is that they have taken the work that the Thoughtful Growth and Action Committee put together and which identified a structure that included one planning commission but two separate DRBs. So there would be one group making the rules and then the town and the village would have some period of time where they were still enforcing the rules on their own. So two planning, well, not one planning mission, two DRBs. And I think they decided that in a merged government, if the town and village merged that we really wouldn't do that, we would just have one planning commission and one DRB. And I think the struggle then was what was the composition and where were the members from and how did that work? And so I would say that the entire thing is still up in the air because the merger is still up in the air. And if anybody has more to add to the story, I will be happy to hear it. No, you're correct, John. That's what's being discussed. We, too, and I have worked on a memo. Greg Duggan asked us to work on a memo about trying to align the fees for development in the town and the village. Some things are easier to do than others, especially when the codes are different. Well, we have produced the first memo to take a look at that. It was, I think discussed briefly at the last trustee meeting. And Greg's asked us to come back with a few modifications. One of the big ones was in the town, if you wanna redo your kitchen, you have to get a permit. If you wanna redo your siding, you have to get a permit. In the village, we consider that sort of thing maintenance and repair. You're being a good citizen, keep your building in good repair. If you're trying to increase the square footage of anything, if you're replacing a debt, you should need a permit. But not if you're doing something just to enhance your property. We don't require a permit for that. That was something that the trustees, I believe, wanted to keep. And we've been asked to, for the most part, to align our fees with what the time had presently. So we're gonna have to take a look at them again and at least then I'm probably gonna be redoing the memo. Probably by the end of January, the latest. Then presenting it again to the trustees and the select board. That's one thing we have been making a movement down the road. We've also been doing some work in terms of the cannabis bill. It's not an opt-dog bill anymore. It's an opt-in bill. There are some things that won't be covered by clients on it. Some things that will. So we've been discussing that, maybe having an overlay map, the standing areas where cannabis retail could happen in the village and where it can. It's early days yet, but there are sort of things that we've been working through. Okay. Good stuff. Anything else? Anybody has to talk? I'd like to mention a couple of things, if that's all right. And maybe this is more of the point, part of the meeting. Patrick. Yes. To voice my concerns as I did during the public hearing portion. I mean, the way that this was presented, I mean, maybe I'm misreading the purpose of us as a planning commission, but I think we shouldn't, we also be looking at our comprehensive plan and promoting all sorts of growth and not just one bedroom studio apartments, which seem to be being built a lot. I think it's appropriate. It's important to have different housing sizes. I think it's also important to ensure the affordability of that housing that's being built. And I understand that, I guess maybe I don't understand, at what point do we as a planning commission come into these applications? When do we get to have a say? If we're even supposed to have a say in the type of building being built, not just the aesthetics of what it looks like, but what the actual structure is and its purpose. And maybe, you know, maybe this is not the right commission for those things. Maybe it's design review. I don't know. Maybe it's just zoning. I mean, how does that all work? I guess, you know, part of what my concern is, is that, you know, this is, I've been on the commission now for what a year and two or three months. And this is my second official meeting because it's the second time we've officially met. So procedurally, when should we come into it? How often should we be meeting, even if there isn't an application per se to be discussed? Should we be talking about, you know, other things that we should be aware of and discussing about the current Park Terrace building that's currently being constructed or the other building that's being constructed behind the Lincoln Inn, which, you know, as a planning commission member, people have asked me what that building is. And honestly, I wasn't here when on the commission when it was approved. And I really don't know what the building is. What type of housing is their housing being built? Other businesses on the first floor, I would imagine it's commercial and then housing like most stuff downtown, but, you know, it feels like there are things I just don't know. And I like to know. Good to hear Patrick. Number one, nobody in the planning commission should be talking about any resident in the village about anything that's coming or has come before the planning commission. That's considered to be exportate communication. Number two, we just actually, which I'm very happy about, the time in the village advertised for members who wanted to be on a housing committee. The housing committee has had two or three meetings so far. And they're looking at things like affordability, equity, things that you're talking about. And that's per view of the housing committee. My understanding of the housing community, though, is they don't really have enforcement. They make recommendations to people like us on the planning commission. They do not have enforcement, like those in the time in the village, they're advisory, just like the tree advisory committee in other committees. Like Walk Committee as well. We do not have any design review of any word within the village-centered district. This development, you just saw, it's not in the village-centered district. I should say that to the rest of the planning commission, you and I exchanged three, four emails over the last week. You've got a lot of questions. Yes, I had some questions. And thank you for answering them. It was very helpful. And a lot of that is because, you know, we haven't met and I feel like I'm a bit to an extent out of practice and maybe another orientation. Yeah, certainly. Any time you want to do it, I'm happy to do that, Patrick. Again, the village-centered district, you know, it's a designated village center which brings some benefits to property owners. If they want to improve historic building, if they want to make it more accessible, in terms of internet, IT, bringing it up to, you know, modern standards, there are grants available for a portion of what that would cost, deciding equipment, et cetera. We didn't think that that really helped with new construction. So we ever left the village-centered district with the neighborhood area designation, exactly. What that does is it gives an opportunity for someone building a new building to avail of certain benefits. Number one is if they meet the standards of the neighborhood area designation, they don't have to go back to 50. Right. Each of the natural resource review is $50. So there's a savings there. One of the things they have to do if they avail of that benefit is that 20% of the units have to be affordable, at the 80% median, I believe, whether they're for rent or for sale. So that covers the whole of the village-centered district, which is the only district in the town that has designed review standards as well. Okay, so, I mean, I guess, you know, through some of our conversation, our emails back and forth, Robin, I got this sense that these projects when they come before us are pretty much done deals. So why, I mean, if we have a housing committee now, should the housing committee have reviewed this and made a recommendation as to whether or not approving a development of one bedroom and studio is appropriate? Was formed, number one. Yes, they will review it. Anything that comes in to the village offices goes to the police, the fire department, village engineer, public works, stormwater, and obviously the community development department. We review the plans based on the village code. It's not something, you know, that you can make changes to on a night on an application. The planning commission, obviously, are here to review the plans based on the village code as well. As you saw tonight, there are some things either remissed or maybe something that the commission wants such as through the type of flights or a bench with lights, electric charging stations. Right, but you said it's a done deal. What we try to do is get, sometimes these applications might go and I don't exaggerate 10 or 12 times the village engineer before they're deemed to meet the land development code standard. And we present you with something that meets the land development code standard. Okay. You wanted to prove it, but you're approving it based on the land development code. As I said, we know the value of judgments. So we're all held to the same standard and we really can't discuss it as a planning commission other than a warrantier inter-meeting. And that has to be a public meeting and that's by statute from the state. And it's also anything we do here, land development code and municipal plan has to also be approved by the Chippinia Contributor Planning Commission and also by all surrounding communities. It's something that we set up by the Chippinia Contributor Planning Commission called the Planning Advisory Committee. And any documentation that we want to bring into regulation in the village has to go to Hinesburg, the Taun, Cold Chester, and others to be reviewed and approved every community in Chippinia County before it even gets to go to the state. And then the state also reviewed and approved it as well. There's a lot of hurdles to that to clear. And in terms of when an applicant comes in front of the Planning Commission, the more complete of a project that we have, the more complete of an application that we have, the more information we have, that it's about the quality of the work that's done before it comes to us that determines how hard it is for them to get the project approved. And trust me, everybody that's been here for a while can think of a couple of projects that were disasters that they had to come in front of us three, four, five times because they didn't meet standards. So that's part of the process too. And that is up to Robin to make sure that that applicant is prepared with the right information really before they come in and waste our time. Yeah, and David was saying, we did find that happening. So we were more stridgened on the front end. They have to clear everything that myself, other departments, the village engineer, see on your drawing that it didn't happen. No, and that's fine. I see Diane has her hand raised. Okay, so I was waiting for an opening into the conversation. Patrick, your point that when does the Planning Commission intercede and it's at the land development code, which Robin, by the way, has put up to the trustees to include monies for the next fiscal year to review the land development code once again. Okay. And at that time, when it gets reviewed, those things that you've been kicking around should be explored. Should we have some zoning requirements when it comes to how many occupants are in a building? Should we have, in the past, there was a discussion about what are the regulations that a massage parlor needs to have to be able to go in front of the Planning Commission or even to exist in the village? And on and on and on. Okay, it could be meeting with the Housing Commission to discuss how things are. Could be meeting with the pre-advisory committee to talk about what's the vision. Remember, provisioning is what the Planning Commission does and we should be talking and meeting and talking about visioning and planning. It's up to us to call a meeting. I mean, as there is, Robin sent us, in fact, the Regional Planning Commission has sent out a note saying that there's a housing or zoning conference in the next few weeks. So, I mean, could we be meeting, going to that and then having a discussion on what we learned at that zoning conference workshop? Okay, yes, well, I think we should be. Because other we're not in the same page. We're like you sitting here saying, it feels fair to complain and I feeling out of the loop because of this. And it's, you shouldn't be because we should have been talking about it. And since we haven't had any applications, we've had ample time to talk about a lot of stuff that is going on or not going on. I find it incredible that our town compatriots, okay, are meeting twice a month. And they're talking about applications and Essexnext. Do we talk about Essexnext? Do we talk about what's going outside of our village? We didn't even talk about what's going on in our village. Yeah, what's happening in our five corners? Where are we at there? I'd like to thank you Diane for mentioning the vision of Essexnext. It's just like, I see a building and it's got a yellow wrap on Pearl Street. And Robin has told me that Dave and John approved the alterations of the plan. And it's a two-story building now that's going up. It's a two-story building. It's what? It was always a two-story building. Well, it's a two-story building. It always was Diane. We- I didn't say that it wasn't, but it's there. It is a building that's going up. It's two stories. Am I allowed to ask what that building is? Just like I'd like to also know what the building behind Lincoln Inn is as well. I mean, are there places on the website I should be going to that has that information? Do I have to dig through minutes of years worth of, well, might not be that tough because there's probably only like five meetings, but I mean, is this the wrong place to be having this discussion, I suppose? All the information is available online. It's also available in the Village Office if anybody wants to see it. Anything that's happening was approved by the Planet Commission. So- Okay, so are those questions about those two buildings are not, they're not able to be answered in this venue or- Well, what do you need to know? What are they? They're forced to break buildings with retail on the entry level and apartments above. Yep. Can I ask what kind of apartments? Yeah, I can remember and tell you. I believe the- The one and two bedrooms. Yeah, I think they're one and two bedrooms. I mean, and I just want to again, thank Diane for saying that vision part. And I think that kind of goes back a little bit to what I'm almost kind of asking is that when these applicants come forward, it sounds to me based on what Robin, how you explained it and everybody has talked is that as long as somebody makes a proposal and meets the land development code, we'll allow as many people to build one bedroom, apartment buildings and studios to fill the entire village. At what point do we get to inter supersede and have the conversation of, well, this proposal is now on the table. Somebody's talking about building this. Does that meet the vision of our village? You get to have that conversation when we're redoing the land development code. You don't get to do it when an application comes in. Yeah, the application meets the code. The code's there. That's a target an applicant has to hit. Okay, well, I want to ensure that the housing community is part of that conversation and they're advising us on that vision so that we can properly be able to have that purview. That bit of, I don't want to say control, but I think it's really important to be able to provide a diversity of housing sizes as well as affordability. Otherwise, we're just going to be a community of studio apartments. It's going to become a college dorm. Well, every time we do the land development code and back to the last time, we run a plan in which to remember we invited people to come. The one form we had, the form where they were stored up, we had the economic development commission. We had the bike walk committee, tree advisory committee, every committee in the village was invited to come along and ask us to help us craft land development code. Okay. And we're doing that next year, the year after. I mean. Patrick, according to Ronan's present presentation at the budget meeting that was last two weeks ago, it's supposed to be approved by December, 2021. Yes. I'm going to switch it in on your work program. We had asked for it to be in last year's annual work program, but they didn't have the staff to do it, but they do have the staff issue. Good. That's good. So, Patrick, we also just, so there's two parts sort of, so there's the comprehensive plan and then there's the LDC, right? So we just finished the comprehensive plan. Which incorporated a lot of the values of heart and soul and sort of the vision that we want for the village and assets in general. And so now we get an opportunity and a lot of the things that you're talking about, we have that opportunity to work on the LDC. And that is exactly where a lot of the things that you're discussing can come into play. So to Robin's point, we invite all of the committees and residents to come and offer their ideas and what they'd like to see. And then we take that and we literally get our hands dirty and go through chapter by chapter and see where we can make changes. And generally, Patrick, just the nature of the beast, the municipal plan and the land development code are often out of step. One's off the head of the other and then when this sort of step comes to a run, then you make adjustments that we're more aligned. Yep. Sure, okay. So I guess, you know, when do we get to meet next? So we, I usually will ask the planning commission members if they want to add anything to an agenda and have a discussion on any number of topics. And then we call, we have to award the meeting and then we meet. So in this environment, I think it's, it would be the same for me. It's important we have an agenda so that we stick to what we're supposed to be talking. Right. So basically if you, you know, if anybody has anything they want to add to an agenda, we can put it together and award the meeting. I think the communication has to go through Robin and Terry so that they can warn the meeting and put the agenda together. We can contact people in vision if we need to just make sure what they will talk about on the agenda. Yep. And then what the, so we need a little time too. So Patrick, what happens is, let's say we have two or three items on the agenda. We try to meet, we try to invite folks from the village or the town that have knowledge about those subjects so they can offer their advice. Excellent. Can we like have a meeting in the next month or two? To, you know, I don't know, is it possible to get updates around what's going on with Design Five Corners and where we're at with some of those projects? You know. What do you mean by updates? Well, how's the connector road going in? I mean, you mentioned today that there's, That's a sore subject right now. Okay, when are we closing Main Street to turn it into a four-way stop sign? Maybe not in my life. How are we doing with the paving of that? Certainly would be, oh no, it would be grass. It would certainly be after the connector roads in. The Regional Planning Commission and BDRAMS have said, once the connector road is in, we're going to have to do a study, even though we know what's going to happen, do a study to show what the benefit would be of closing up Main Street. In terms of the connector road, all but one resident agreed to the connector road. There's one resident that we need to brief, small sliver of their property. Because it's a federal project, the property that we need, we need these delivered, had to be appraised. A number was given to us. That figure was offered to the property owner. They rejected that. We have been going around in circles. It's in court. The court had to get a group of commissioners who were experienced enough to review the necessity of the road. The resident isn't really objecting to the necessity of the road because they had their own engineer come in and redesigned the road. To be less on their property. So they're still saying yes, the road should go in. But there has been, all right, I put it, objections to some of the commissioners that were selected. So we've been going around in circles. One conditioner gets knocked out. Another one gets proposed. One gets knocked out. Another one gets proposed. We're hoping the next week or two, another problem is they change the judges every so often. So the judge who's on the case was rotated out for another judge to come in. Business familiar with this. So we're working our way through that. Once we get through this, and we're hopeful because all the scholars we've seen say, yes, it's needed and it makes a big difference to the center. We can go forward. We were scheduled to do all of the rail construction and then we had to go back to the federal government and say, please keep the money obligated, which they agreed to do. But we're a bit of drift at the moment, but we're still trying to push forward to get everything moving some right. Generally, my tendency is to tell people when we have positive news, right? So we're trying to go back to the federal government and say, please keep the money obligated, which they agreed to do. But we're a bit of drift at the moment, when we have positive news rather than no news. But I'm happy to keep you on the no news if that's what you want. Yeah, I mean, just timeline updates here and there are always nice. It's sometimes hard to be guessing to know what's going on. You know, I think that's something we can include in just an agenda line item in a meeting. Sometimes I can't get the information because it's in the court system. Maybe some of the information would be something that an opponent could use. Yeah, but that's fine. I mean, just to say that it's still in litigation is great. I mean, just to kind of know that it's, you know. To Phil's point, you know, to Phil brought up the railroad and main situation, you know, those kinds of reminders are great. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I would suggest that we try to warn a meeting for, now we have to, so that the only challenge is the trustees meetings and ours have to be opposite. Is that correct? We're going to choose the word Thursday. So we could do, generally it's the first and third Thursday, because if anybody wants to do the first Thursday in January, we could do that if not, then it'd be the third Thursday. I think the first Thursday, well, it's only, we're only a couple of weeks away from the first Thursday, the first. Well, why don't people think about it, email me and Terry so you can get a consensus whether it's the first or third Thursday. I don't mind either way. I feel personally that in order to get a decent agenda together, if we were going to warn a meeting, it would probably, it should probably be the third. Yeah, because we, that's right. Sorry, we have to think about the time frame for warning as well. So my suggestion would be to send your, you know, we'll kind of let you guys, there may be a lot of topics at first, but we'll have to narrow it down to, you know, take small bites. I can certainly have an update in all the things we've been talking about tonight, ready and available. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Yeah, or take all those agenda items and plan out two or three, four months worth of meetings for us to hit all those agenda items that get suggested if a lot of them get put up. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a fantastic idea. Yeah, I think I can say, I can't get details, but there have been one, two, three, four real estate purchases in the village in the last six weeks. Another one may be kind of January, another one may be coming up in March, confidential at the moment, but as soon as it happens, I can certainly share that with the time frame. In the downtown area or? Some in the downtown area, some outside the downtown area. As part of Design Five Corners? No. So are we talking about meeting essentially once a month until we run out of things to meet about? Whether we have applications or not, we're talking about planning, a planning meeting once a month. If you do that, and you're also maybe applications that are remorged, yes. I think that that's a good goal. I mean, I think that's a fine goal. I can't say, I had a telephone conversation with viewers of all in Poland about redevelopment of Amber lanterns. They have not come forward with an application or anything more than an initial conversation, but that's something that may be coming down to the pike at some stage. A year ago when that project first was proposed, there was a phased upgrade of the entire development. So that's not unexpected. They probably just needed time to see how it was going to work out. Yeah, one thing we should remember is we told them in the decision at Oxford, I remember the weirdest things, that if they redeveloped Amber lanterns, they'd have to redo the road and complete it. They'd have to upgrade the road to village standards. I do recall that. Okay. So good stuff. So it's 830, very good meeting and send your ideas to Robin and Terry and we'll warn the next meeting for the third week in January. I'm sorry, third Thursday in January and go from there. So do I hear a motion to adjourn? Oh yeah, I'll make a motion. This is Patrick. Second. John. All in favor? Aye. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you, everybody. Very merry. Thank you guys. Happy.