 Good morning and welcome to Moments with Melinda. It's nice to have you with me today. My guest is Beth Sacks. Hi Beth, how are you? Great, how are you Melinda? This is my thrill and honor. I'm really good and it's just so great to have you on my show today. For my viewers, let me share a little bit about Beth Sacks. Beth has been in the field of sustainable energy, energy efficiency and renewable energy for 40 years. Probably even longer than that. She co-founded the Vermont Energy Investment Corporation, a mission-driven, nonprofit, the services efficiency of Vermont, right? Yes, that's right. And then many, many, many other things that you have done. So I wanna share with our viewers that 40 years ago, I met you and your late husband Blair. And it was when we were just starting division for the Burlington Waterfront. And you all, and I think John Quinney might have been involved and maybe a few other people. And you met with us, with Lisa and I, to talk about district heating for the waterfront. Yes. And that was the first time that I met you and you were that many, many years ago already as a young woman trying to save our planet. So that was when you and I first met and then we served on boards together and it's been a wonderful friendship over the years. Now, you co-founded VEIC with your late husband, Blair. Beth, can you talk a little bit about the early days and what inspired the two of you to take on this project? Well, it's interesting. When Blair and I met, it was before the oil embargo of 1972 and energy was not an issue. It was too cheap to meter. That was the quote. And so I met Blair and a group of really interesting architects who were interested in trying to think about architecture that had low impact on the land. And so when I met Blair, he was building a one acre inflatable bubble that was the Antioch campus in Maryland. It was beautiful and it was just great. And right just in the middle of doing that, the oil embargo hit and a lot of people who had been interested in that kind of architecture all swiveled to how can we make buildings that are more efficient and use less energy? And from there, we just, it's just been an interesting journey. The reason we started VEIC in particular was was my mother lived in a row house in Baltimore city. I don't know if you know what those look like, but they're tall and skinny. So she lived in one that was four stories, pretty typical. And one or two rooms of her build per story. It was always hot on the top floor, unbearably hot. And it was always cold, really cold on the first floor. And she was trying to get some help to figure out what to do. And there was nowhere she could go where someone would say, let's figure out what you need. The only options she had were contractors who were trying to sell her some kind of heating system or cooling system or whatever. So Blair and I realized that what we needed, what people needed was an advocate. They needed someone who was interested in helping them very specifically figure out what they needed without being tied to any kind of equipment or even any kind of energy source, like electricity or gas or anything like that. And so that was really how we figured out that this was a service that was needed and started VEIC. So it really bloomed out of even a very strong social justice premise. Were you part of the 60s movement? You were. And I believe that our generation, I mean, Earth Day, all of it was starting to think about that. But Beth, you in particularly have significantly influenced the global sustainability energy industry. So can you talk to us about that and how your life's worked since the early 1980s focused on a healthy planet? Well, I think it's always been an issue of what's fair, what's fair and what's good for sustaining life on Earth. And so when I first heard about the concept of global warming so many years ago and what was first being discussed, it was a terrifying thought. The idea that we could be doing so much 40, 50 years ago that was we wouldn't know what the impacts would look like. And yet people weren't gonna respond until you could, until you could see them. And that's really scary because then it was gonna be too late and now I fear we're at that point. So I think that it's always been for me an issue of we're trashing this place and we need to take better care of it. And the people who are gonna be affected first and hardest are the people who can't afford to make choices because they don't have resources. Does that answer your question? Yes, it does. And so tell me what brought you in Blair to Vermont? It's a long story I could try to make short but I worked early on after the oil embargo in Montreal at a research institute that was related to McGill. And Blair was going to architecture school there and building solar buildings on Cree Reserves in Northern Quebec, that was his thesis. And we met a lot of people who we worked really well with and then we all scattered. Blair and I went and started a business out in California, the only for-profit I've ever worked for, still traded on NASDAQ today. And then we moved to Montana after we got that off the ground, brought all the people back who were friends who had worked together in Montreal, worked at the National Center for Appropriate Technology in Butte, Montana. And after a couple of years decided we wanted to all come back to the East Coast but we wanted to live on our own sides of the border because half of us are Canadian and half from the US. So we picked Newport, Vermont off a map and Blair and I moved there. Oh, that's so fascinating. I had no clue, I had no idea. And you and Blair co-founded Vermont Energy Investment Corp and it is a non-profit. Yes. And it's best known in Vermont and around the world as implementing the first statewide energy efficiency utility and reducing the energy cost is the goal, especially for low-income folks. Talk to us a little bit about that. Well, the idea, for better or worse, maybe it's success that efficiency of Vermont is now kind of a household word and it feels like an institution. But when we thought about the concept 25 years ago, it was very radical. The idea that you could have a regulated utility that would not sell electricity, that would instead contribute to what we need by saving electricity. And so it had never been done before. And we had some great people in state government and great people, regulators in the state who were all interested in making this happen. And we did. And since then, we have an efficiency utility in Washington DC. We helped start efficiency New Brunswick, efficiency Nova Scotia, all over the country and around the world. Well, mostly Canada and the United States. Well, it's extraordinary. And your focus has always been to reduce the environmental costs also of energy use. Not just this, what it costs for the user of energy, but also the environmental costs, you merge those two. And certainly when you came to us to talk about district eating, it was such a novel. I mean, the thing about you and Blair is your thinking was so forward thinking decades and decades and decades before Al Gore's incredible movie. You guys were, I just find that extraordinary that what, talk to me a little bit about your childhood and what is it about you growing up that made you be such a forward thinking leader? Not just in this industry, but in your life. Talk to us a little bit about that. Well, I grew up in a Jewish ghetto until I was 10 years old in Baltimore. And then my parents moved us to a place outside between Baltimore and Washington that was completely undeveloped and didn't like Jews. And so I was not treated very well. I was spit on and things like that. And so I just got this incredible sense of I think fairness and what's fair and what's not. And that really compelled me. And so in high school, it was before girls could wear pants to school. Remember that? And I organized the campaign all of my senior year and we got suspended every month when we organized girls wearing pants and then we all got sent home. I have a really strong sense of what's fair and what's not, I think. And I don't know, that probably came from my parents and from being not treated very fair, very nicely when I moved at 10 years old. And you were a child. But what? I was expelled from high school for profanity and insubordination, as a matter of fact. Well, that does not surprise me. Well, we don't need to go into the details. So we don't, but it's a bless your heart for being a champion of women and so many other. But what inspired you to move into energy was that your mother living in that high rise that, because the field that you went into was not necessarily one that women went into. And you not only went into it, you crashed the glass ceiling and transformed the way that people look at energy around the world. So talk to us a little bit about what that electrical charge was that got you to focus in that direction. I think, you know, the oil and borgo made a huge impact. I don't know. I mean, you probably remember what we had. We'll talk about that. We had to line up to, you know, people had to line up and you could get gas on different days depending on what your license plate number was and things like that. And it was hardship for a lot of people. Was it during the Nixon administration? Was it during the Nixon administration that that happened? Or was it? Yes. It was the Nixon and so tell us a little bit about it it basically there was an oil and borgo and because I can't, I don't remember that very well because I'm, but it went and people were in lines for hours and hours trying to get gas for their vehicles. And that had a huge impact on you. And where were you when that happened? I was in Maryland and the, you know, it's interesting because the oil and borgo in 72 was not about scarcity. It was about control. I think now it's much more about control. I mean about scarcity and the impact on the environment. At the time it was really, oh, you know, OPEC can control us. And so it was really, I think in some ways more political in a way. And how old were you? But it just made me realize that there were such different ways of doing things. Like solar energy that you could capture it and you could store it and you could use it and that you were just more self-reliant. When did that first, when did solar power come into your brain? Because it certainly didn't come into most of ours for, I mean, were you a science? Were you, were you? No, not at all. I was, if anything, an art major, but I made up, I went to seven colleges and made up a degree in what they call, we call the environmental design. And Blair, who you've referred to quite a few times, he had, I met him and met this group of architects that were so fascinating, who were first working on inflatables and less impact on the land. And it was just a really easy transition to passive solar. How did you build buildings that wouldn't need energy or nearly as much? But you also have run and founded a very extraordinary nonprofit, VEIC, and you were the founder and the executive director for years and it was a big business. So you must have honed your business skills as well or did that come natural to you? That was just luck. I mean, I don't know, Melinda, if you've had the same thing, we didn't get trained in anything, right? We just learned it on the job. Yeah, I mean, when Blair and I started VEIC, we thought it might grow to 25 people and at its height, I don't know what it is now. It had 320 employees and I think a $95 million budget. And I remember the first time we had a $1 million budget and I thought, oh my Lord, we run a million-dollar company. And now it's $100 million. Yeah. Well, I call it the power of naivete, that as women, we weren't pushed into the careers that certainly women today are choosing. And for me, I had to make it up as I went along and fortunately, I opened the right doors and got through and I had a lot of support from people who knew what they were doing, but I call that the power of naivete. And so I want to segue now a little bit to kind of where we are. We're halfway through our interview here, where we are as a plan and as a society. Do you believe, Beth, that the state of Vermont and local community during enough to help folks without means to switch to renewables? No, but I think that even the fact that we now acknowledge it is really important, that there's... 10 years ago, I was always trying at VEC to talk about the confluence of energy justice, environmental justice and social justice always. And now I feel like it's part of the dialogue at the state level, at the federal level, it's amazing. And I think there's an awareness that we've never had before. And so I do think that it looks promising. I think that people really, when making investments in new programs and new program designs, it's not an afterthought anymore. How is this gonna have an impact on low income people and people with less means and disadvantaged communities? So do we have time to do it? I hope so. Well, so I wanna just challenge you a little bit on that because 10 years ago, we put in solar panels and for 10 years we didn't have an electric bill and then they changed the rates through the utility. And now we're getting less back in the net metering than we did before. And we just paid off the mortgage. So that, I think I actually wrote a commentary about that just a few weeks ago because it bothered me that, and we were able to do that. We were able to get a mortgage and do that. But how many people can do that? I remember meeting Bernie Sanders. You might've been there for a VBSR meeting. You might've been in that room when Bernie said, every house in Vermont should have a solar panel. Every house across the country should have a solar panel. And that was what, 15, 20 years ago. So I'm just wondering if there's more that we can do as a state to help people who don't have the means to switch to renewables, to do it, to make it so that it's not a financial burden for them. Well, I have this depressing thought that I'll put out there, which is the amount of money that we have spent over the last 25, 30, 40 years, trying to convince people to put solar on their roofs and insulate their houses is phenomenal. And I just, I would love to collect that information and see if, what if we just spent it all on buying it and doing it? I mean, it was so much money. And I think we're still art of that mindset that really that it's gonna happen in the market. And personally, I don't think it's gonna happen through the market. I think it's gonna happen through policy and building codes and standards and mandates. I think it has to, I don't think we have time to convince people to do the right thing. Well, I did the research and it would be $4.2 trillion to get solar on every building in this country. So I did my research on, I don't know that, and it would take a few years of taking some money out of our defense budget, but I think that we could start moving in that direction where our government helps people to say, look, let us do this for you. We'll come in and do this for you in the same way that they build roads and they keep up our roads. It should be. Or F-35s. We won't even, don't even need to go there. But yes, okay, so you and I need to, and I'm sure we're gonna stay right on this issue. Now I wanna move on to you're being a strong advocate for women and women's issue. And I know like me, we've talked about this. You must be deeply concerned about the current affairs around access to reproductive healthcare for women around the country. How are you feeling about the way things are going in our country for women on that? No, it's just shocking to me. You and I are of a certain age and we could possibly have gotten pregnant before Roe v. Wade, you know? And the idea that, and that was terrifying back then. And we take it, I don't take it for granted, but most people, younger than me do, and I'm glad they do. And they should, but this is, I mean, this is all just about politics. This is all just about getting, having the right people in office who care about this. It's absolutely a travesty. It's hard to believe that it happened. And it's a way of holding women down. Now I wanna recognize you that in 2016, you received the Leadership and Achievement Award from the Northeast Energy Efficiency Partnership. You were honored as an influential champion leader and innovator to unleash the power of energy efficiency as equitable, affordable, and sustainable energy resource. Talk to us about getting that award and how that felt for you. Certainly it was so well-deserved. Well, you know, it's funny. It was, I think it was called the Lifetime Achievement Award. And I think it was the same year that I got, I was honored to get the VBSR Terrieric Award. That's right. I think they were in the same year. And I thought, I'm not done. You know, and when that kind of thing comes to you, you think, you know, I don't, I didn't for a minute think I had peaked. But it was a great honor. They both were a great honor, both of them. And I do wanna recognize the Terrieric Award because I was there for that event and it was so well-deserved. Now, you have been saying that all people need and deserve clean air, clean water, and the means to support themselves and the freedom to live their lives with dignity. With the situation in this country where democracy and human rights and freedoms are being challenged, how do we make strides amidst these times we are living in now? It's a big question. I think for me, a big part of answering that question personally was creating an institution such as VAIC that really, that really respected people that created a workplace that was dignified and fair and equitable and not sexist and not homophobic and, you know, racist. And I think that to me, creating those kinds of models and institutions is really important. So when I go and talk to people and meet people who worked at VAIC, there are hundreds of people who have come and gone from there and gone off to do other work in other places and are continuing to do really great work and do it in, and one of the things that I hope I have done is with the young staff who have started at VAIC, started to create expectations that this is how we can work together. And to me that workplace is really important. Because they take that with them, that becomes their internal way of doing business. And then when they have a staff and they're managing, they say, I want to manage it the way it was at VAIC. Now you state a lot about efficiency, that efficiency comes first. So for my viewers who are watching, can you talk to us a little bit about how they can become engaged and take advantage of the services at Efficiency Vermont. And to my viewers, I just want to also tell you that you should go to the website, which is www.veic.org. There's so much information on that website. It's a great website. But how do my viewers get involved in the Efficiency Vermont program, Beth? Well, that's interesting because I've been away from that for quite a while now. But I think, I know that the customer support team is phenomenal. They don't, it's not a group of people who answer the phone and then find somebody to give an answer to people. They have become experts themselves in so many areas. And they're incredibly helpful. I mean, I think that they are just a real gem at VAIC. And so I really wouldn't hesitate to tell people to just call them and they have so much information and interest caring about helping people find what they need. And if they don't, they'll find who does. So I just say, you know, it's not a gateway. It's a really great service. So veic.org, visit the website, make a call. And Efficiency Vermont. And Efficiency Vermont. And it's- I think it's dot com. Dot com. Efficiency Vermont. I don't know why. But I've used them, certainly we use them at the project and it's personal and it's really valuable service. So talk to us about what you're working on now, Beth. Come on, what's your next big illuminating project? Well, I'm working now on divestment. I think that getting the banks and all of us out of supporting oil is a really critical piece. It's something I feel like I can kind of get my hands around. I'm working with an organization called Third Act, which Bill McKibben started about three years ago. And it's seniors who have lots of knowledge and experience and more time than they have and in many cases, more resources than when they were working. I mean, it's not just retired people, but mostly. And it has been just fantastic to me, this whole new group of people who really during their careers may never have even thought about energy and climate change and now are really engaged and are bringing skills as lawyers and teachers and artists. And it's really exciting. So I would say, go look up Third Act Vermont. We won't turn you away if you're under 60, but if you're interested, it's great. We've done a lot of different kinds of actions. We're trying to pass a bill in the legislature to divest, to have the state, sorry, divest its pension funds from fossil fuels. And I'm personally working on making sure that people understand once they do cut up their credit cards to the four big banks that are mostly, that are promoting fossil fuels, that they know where to go. So you cut up your credit card from Citibank. Where do you go to do banking that matches your values? So that's one of the projects I'm working on. That's fascinating. So Beth, we're coming to the end of our show. Where do you see the future of our species on a changing planet over the next couple of decades? You and I probably still have another 20 years left, but where do you see our species with the changing planet? Wow, that's a big question. I try to stay optimistic in spite of the fact that I think the changes that have happened to our climate are terrifying and threatening. And all I can do is hope that we have the wherewithal to change it and turn it around before it's too late. I don't think Saturn is the answer. I think we have to solve it. I don't think we can go there, Saturn or the moon. We've got to figure out what's going on here. And we have to do it in a way that doesn't create greater wealth for rich people and greater opportunities and wipes out 90% of the planet. And I think people also need to vote. And not every candidate's gonna be perfect when it comes to climate. And I know a lot of environmentalists hold certain politicians' feet to the fire and are very critical, but at the end of the day, you've got to measure which candidate is really supporting climate change. It may not be perfect and it may not be as much as we feel we need, but we have to be careful that we don't elect people who actually say that climate change is not real. We're gonna pull out of the Paris Accord. That's another thing. And I think environmentalists, there's a couple of things that environmentalists need to focus a little bit on reproductive health too, because population is important. And I've certainly talked to Bill McKibbin about that. And I think that that's a direction that they need to focus on, but also to be more gentle with politicians who maybe aren't perfect, but they're really where we need to go. And if we don't get behind them and support, then we could end up in a place which would be horrifically terrible for the planet and our species. So I think encouraging people to vote for the right candidate is really important. Would you say? Absolutely. And I do a lot of electoral politics trying to get people to vote, get them out to vote and get them out to vote in a progressive manner. I mean, let's face it, it's not just vote, like you said. I totally agree with what you're saying. I think it's amazing to, I think that we have to really think about building coalitions. There are, we, you know, right now, biomass is really a very charged issue in the state. And wind has been too. And we have to go beyond those to figure out when to hold them and when to fold, you know, and when to compromise and when not to. And I think that this is such an old problem for the left. And I think our survival depends on it. Here, here, I'm so with you on this, Beth. So what words of wisdom would you give our younger generation? I know you have a son, a very accomplished son. And what would you, what would you offer our younger generations as they are growing up in a planet and in a society that will be exceedingly more challenging than certainly what we grew up with? I think be inclusive, listen to each other, respect each other. And don't shy away from expressing what's important. Don't shy away from the arguments that we need to have, discussions that we need to have. Good for you. Well, I am honored to have lived on this planet with you and known you these last 40 years. And I'm so grateful that you agreed to be on my show and to share your wisdom and your visions and your accomplishments with my viewers. Beth Saxure, you're an angel, I love you. And thank you so much for being on my show. And to my viewers, thank you for joining me and I will see you shortly. Have a beautiful day.