 Hi everybody. Good morning. Welcome to In Good Governance We Trust. I'm Alison Taylor. I'm going to be moderating this session today. It's going to be amazing. We have Anna Tunkerl from APCO. We have David Flevelle from Pepsi. And we have Christian Heidenreich from Vestas. So we have observed between us that there is a revolution going on in terms of how we think about business ethics and integrity and governance. Over the last year in particular there has obviously been a significant global focus and spotlight on the environmental and social aspects of ESG. But I think even more broadly we are evolving from a consideration of corporate integrity which back in the 20th century used to be about protecting the corporate entity from litigation and reputational risk. And now has become a far broader and systemic issue really about how business interacts with society writ large. Similarly we've also seen the G in ESG often limited to the topics of board diversity and compliance. And what we are really now seeing is a revolution in how companies are thinking about and managing integrity issues and really taking a far more strategic approach to these that go far beyond consideration of purely legal risk. Clearly unless we can address governance issues within the private sector and really progress collaboration between the private sector governments and civil society we will not deliver on the ESG framework or the sustainable development goals and we will not ensure a sustainable recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic. The World Economic Forum's Global Future Council on Transparency and Anti-Corruption which is now in our second year we have been exploring these dimensions of the rise of integrity for some time and we are currently working on a paper coming out very soon called The Rise of the Chief Integrity Officer where we're really exploring that dimension of integrity and ethics beyond legal risk. We're going to be laying out this playbook which brings together best practices and trends from the private sector and multilateral development banks and we're going to look about the alignment of topics such as integrity, sustainability, human rights, environmental justice for achieving greater impact from the private sector and really transforming how we think about these issues. So I'm going to be asking for thoughts from our panelists in a moment but what I would like to do first of all is ask everybody on the line a question we're going to see a word cloud when you have answered this question but the question is what key values does a company need to uphold to achieve good governance? I will give you a moment to react. Okay so right enormous up there integrity, transparency, accountability, coherence, trust, value of the common good I think that's very very interesting but you can see these these words coming through that are that are really huge and what I would really like to spend the rest of this panel doing is to talk about what these words mean in their actual practical aspects. Over to you Anna to react to this word cloud and talk a little bit about some of the work we've been doing and give everyone on the line a preview of some of the things that we've found. Sure thank you Allison it's a pleasure to be in such great company of collaborators and like-minded thinkers on this critical issues. So I guess quickly reacting to the word cloud of course transparency integrity I would even say empathy are a really critical values from an organizational standpoint when we look at the road ahead for sustainable governance but I would probably add one more which is inspirational ethics and this is something that you and I have been having a lot of conversations about and also is an emerging trend where employees of private or public sector organization no longer want to be told of what not to do so using the stick of compliance but really want to be inspired what they can and should be doing on this path forward and so perhaps sharing you know a broader trend that we're seeing collectively individually as leaders in our organizations is this rising stakeholder expectations across the board from all different groups so employees want their employers to be a lot more active in fight for social justice consumers expect companies to respect human rights in their supply chains and beyond and local communities certainly expect manufacturers to avoid polluting air and water around their facilities and they're sharing all of these expectations widely and mobilizing communities across physical and and virtual borders and so as you rightly said when we talk about the G and ESG governance it goes much further than just the the governance component but governance is broader underlying critical elements to fulfill the environmental and social pillars of ESG from climate change to to human rights to various challenges that sustainable development goals seek to to address and so our global future council of the world economic forum is somewhat a microcosm of the multilateral community bringing many of us from from business but also leaders from academia and multilateral institutions in this playbook that we worked on over the past six months draws not just on corporate best practices but also brings the table multilateral development institutions who often have to to police and and sort of represent this stick that has to uphold standards and penalties when it comes to economic development and investment projects and so we spoke to various civil society organizations as well and it's important for me to highlight that we're not talking about a role or a function with this chief integrity officer paradigm but rather consciously driving alignment between risk compliance governance sustainability HR and oftentimes corporate and government affairs in in any organization and so as you mentioned we're going to be seeing this this work published by the world economic forum next month but I wanted to to preview five key trends that again I'm seeing through my work apco worldwide but also that we're seeing all collectively in our organizations so first of all there is an overall mission evolution and as I said earlier this shift from policing to building a culture of integrity rules versus values I think today first all organizations are equipped more than ever before with technological tools to do so so crowdsourcing clothes of ethics to chat bots that address employee concerns in every part of the global business and so we need to create this shift from litigation mindset to inspirational ethics in all of our organizations I think we also need to evolve with the skill sets that we're looking for for people to uphold these functions in our organizations so law behavioral science organizational psychology sustainability in human rights data analytics I think we're looking at a brave new world when it comes to the types of people and skills we want to to bring to the table to address these issues the third is advancing a common advocacy agenda and it's interestingly connected to what the UN Secretary General announced on the eve of the UN General Assembly that has began last week which is called our common agenda so Secretary General Gutierrez calls for a renewed social contract between governments and people towards stronger social protection and I think we we have a responsibility to do that as well and many progressive companies today and I'm sure David will share PepsiCo's perspective have developed this alignment between that goes beyond immediate business or industry agenda by advocating for issues that that stakeholders care about so in context of this conversation on governance it's implementation of SDG 16 peace justice and stronger institutions it's integration between compliance sustainability and human rights and it is helping government governments build corruption free environment through e-governance helping reduce red tape and many other initiatives the fourth is joining forces to multiply impact an area that is near and dear to my heart at Avco but also just observing that private sector can create this positive ripple effect by influencing economic systemic change by using these levers to to help partners vendors suppliers transform their business practices and also by joining forces with others across industry line extractive industries transparency initiative various other global processes are good examples of platforms that we need to bring government civil society and private sector to the table and finally I'll leave you with I guess of a mixed bag when it comes to when we have when it comes to technology on the one hand blockchain e-governance chatbots right we've AI we've learned about all the positive tools that can help speed this you know sustainable governance transition but at the same time technology is also accelerating the ways that our system can be undermined through fraud and corruption and so we definitely need new tools to combat prevent and detect areas of vulnerability that that play your system amazing thank you very much that was a wonderful overview so I'm now going to turn to our other panelists and get some thoughts from them let's start with you David um ethics used to be a little more simple it was about ensuring that the corporation did not break the law today as Anna is very well articulated it is far more complicated than that so maybe you could start off by talking about the evolution of integrity issues in Pepsi and how you think about and approach the topic of in governance we trust Pepsi and what changes you have seen and are still underway sure thanks thanks Alison and you know Anna put it 100 correct that you know where we are even from five years ago is dramatically different but I mean I think I consider Pepsi has been a company that's generally been sort of towards the forefront of sort of looking at things more broadly you know we've had for a very long time sort of key to our values and principles about acting with integrity and voicing opinions fearlessly and you know our sort of values are around you know performance with purpose or updated lately to winning with purpose and so just looking at things from a pure sort of legal ethical point of view I mean I've been with Pepsi for over 10 years and we weren't really even doing that 10 years ago but there has been a real step change I think in in recent times and I think even if you think of the major sort of upheaval in the world that the COVID pandemic has caused I think is really and other societal issues has really caused people to look at it in a much deeper fashion when you start looking at the disparity between developed and developing markets around access to vaccines and all sorts of other things I think it has caused people to to continue to reflect and from from our organization's point of view you know just last week we announced I'll be careful not to steal too much of our CEO's thunder because I know he's talking on another session later later this week you know last week we announced what we call pep plus Pepsi positive I should say and that really is sort of we've had sustainability and human rights and other sorts of targets for for a long time and principles and codes but you know last week we really announced it's like it's not just sort of something that you add on to business it's a fundamental read look about how we do business you know across whether people planets purpose and so on with some very sort of new and ambitious targets around you know greenhouse gas emissions and sustainability and and human rights and and and the people agenda racial equality and so on as they've always been important things to us but now it's like really like this is front and center with aggressive targets you know we have a broad group of people who are responsible for this it's not just the compliance chief compliance and ethics officer we have a chief global chief sustainability officer who reports directly to the CEO the head of compliance and ethics reports to me we have a human chief human rights officer who again reports to me and you know our our procurement team you know has a very strong supply code of conduct and that's high on the list of imports throughout our sort of global procurement team so it's in an organization of our size with about 290 000 people spread around you know 150 200 countries of the world we have to take a broad approach but importantly doing business the right way and ethically and taking this broader view has to really be distilled across the entire organization it can't be a rules-based approach the whole company has to believe it and has to be locked into to drive against it yeah I mean with a with a workforce of 290 000 people this is clearly about more than good intentions this is an enormously ambitious and difficult to pull off undertaking to have consistency across integrity issues amazing to hear your description of how sustainability has always been very very important or certainly at least for for the last decade but now what I heard you say is that it's no longer just that it's important it's actually core and has been incorporated into your core strategy in to the degree that you can no longer separate out the two which is I think exactly what we're looking for um Christian I would love to hear your perspective on the same question um what does the journey of corporate integrity look like at Vesta some and maybe you could pick up on some of the points David raised and talk about what this looks like and how you think about this in a very different business yeah thank you thank you Allison uh yeah but but again it's a journey and you can say if we start way back 2009 we signed during global compact we had the human rights officers sitting in the company from 2011 so on the on the human rights agenda the the environmental agenda is of course always been embedded I think and the same with the compliance but I think what what what the change is exactly what what David described is that that the point of departure is you know legal you know it has to be legal we have code of conducts that's our internal tools and supplier code of conducts that that that that we kind of work with but the thing is what about have changed is you know is it legitimate and that is where the external stakeholders comes in and actually you can say look at us and say you know what you're doing is that legitimate and that is that can be a different scale depending on who you are where you are when the world you are how you perceive the products we we make if you're impacted by the products that we make um and then then of course as as David also said working with the culture it has to be embedded but what is it that has to be embedded in this you know you have the outside looking in on us and the inside us looking out and trying to explain you know what what what are we doing how do we perceive this and I think that is the the big change that we've seen over the last few years is that we need to be better to to align on this we need to be be better to have a common language around this uh because you know the perception is that that as a as a company we are we are responsible for everything but it is an intersection between you know both the the the the different opinions and views on this agenda and I think that is also the whole cultural change that we need to work with as as companies it's not only black and white because again it's it's also the perception of what people meet I mean we are an organization of 30 000 uh we are we are in 80 countries around the world but everywhere where we have people they are met with different perceptions on this so we need to build a strong culture both around the the human rights agenda the the compliance agenda environmental agenda and all that in order to to kind of speak the same language and I think that that is the big change that we need to work with and also as we become more and more uh we learn more and more about the topics we learn more and more about the integrations the skills the conf uh cross functional nature I mean that has to simply disseminate into the to the organization so that we have the the you know that we are able to answer uh when questions are raised that's completely fascinating because what you've described as having a consistency about your external and internal messaging which is also of course about considering both the risks to the organization and the impact of the organization especially on environmental and social issues and then aligning these things under a governance framework we're always already getting amazing questions from the audience but let me ask each of you and I'll start with Anna a question of how companies can champion the fight against corruption and connect it to other agendas like human rights and climate change what have we learned Anna during our research and what have you learned in your own work about what works and what doesn't work here sure and I think it's um there's a broader uh I think framework um that is applicable here in um and looking at these issues through the lens of sort of the three a's the alignment um authenticity and and and advocacy and this is something that um again at lens that we we often apply um at apco and looking at these complex issues um and I think first and foremost the authenticity part I think companies need to focus on areas where they're most credible and can add sort of and create the largest impact um I think we're again seeing this through supply chains through the specific industry initiatives um I think alignment and and David and and Kristen touched on this it needs to you know be aligned with with the values that that the company is championing both at the leadership level but I think they've been truly reflective of uh company's culture and and what it stands for and finally the advocacy piece perhaps again my my favorite and one that I'm more biased towards but it's um um joining forces uh with external stakeholders where there is that broader um connectivity on on critical issues and in the in the context of this intersectionality between governance um social and uh and environmental issues it's um understanding where can you advance your mission further where do you as an organization have those strength where do you have gaps in addressing them and where does it make sense to join forces with organizations like Ellen MacArthur or CARE um Oxfam that is uniquely aligned with with what you're trying to achieve I think when it comes to broader transparency and in anti-corruption there are a number of global institutions that again many of us collaborate with from from basil to transparency international that have also been part of this journey with us where it certainly makes sense to to to join forces from corporate standpoint to further the mission amazing so um all right so let's go to Christian um next um I think corruption is such an interesting topic because obviously it's extremely heavily regulated maybe the most heavily regulated business integrity issue globally over all so has um I think is safely safe to say traditionally being considered in a pretty purely legalistic way by organization so it's a very good kind of microcosm and way to make the kind of trends that we're talking about practical so um can you talk about um how best as thinks about the fight against corruption and anything that you are doing or thinking about um in terms of connecting it to the human rights agenda the climate agenda or anything else that Anna mentioned um yes I mean it's a it's a it's a big it's a big question and a big agenda but but what I think it is interesting here is a little bit what I also alluded to before the if you look at it a little bit like a matrix that where where do you have the intersections between both environment human rights uh compliance and so on and I think that is where where the challenge is one thing that we experience is of course that when we talk about the ESG agenda is that the E is relatively well defined uh we have been working with the environment for many many years and we can measure and you know it's it's more we are getting down to the nitty gritty now uh in order to communicate about it we have a common language on the E on the S we are not there on the social agenda I mean we we do have some uh metrics but they are they are limited we don't have a language uh we still don't have a human rights language for business and how how that interacts with with the with the states and so on is still being developed and then you have the G who's kind of governing all of this and then when I say the the the intersection is is interesting because that's where we see that that's where the dilemmas kind of occurs and that is again for us as as a company that where we need to also be be brave enough to raise the dilemmas and be able to take the discussions in the public and and one thing there for us for instance is uh when we look at at the the the the need of due diligence both from a compliance perspective from a human rights perspective you know we do the diligence we do our you know we have the tools to do it but often we cannot disclose you know findings and so on because that that is within the business relation so how so should we be open then about our methodology on how we do this or how do we discuss these things when we cannot disclose it and I think that's some of the dilemmas that that we we try to bring forward but also try to look and to solve and then again as as a global company we also have responsibility to to to to take part of that discussion and bring it up but that's also where I think that we can both champion this but also move the the needle to become more uh defined on what is it we are trying to solve here amazing yeah and due diligence is such a good example because it's an example where historically if human rights diligence is done at all it's done separately from corruption but there are so many issues um suggesting that these methodologies should should converge um we're going to move to audience questions soon please keep them coming a great uh one's coming through already but um first of all I wanted to get David's thoughts um on this question of anti-corruption and these other agendas and some kind of practical granular thoughts given your worldwide presence um this seems a particularly interesting question for for Pepsi I don't know if there are any markets you're not present in but um I don't know of them if there are North Korea would be one I can but um so but there aren't many um and sometimes through third parties which is a whole another issue right as far as right compliance with third parties and things but you know Anna and Christian touched on on these issues and you know I'm lucky Pepsi we have very strong values so we've always been interested in ensuring that we you know comply with law and we when we do acquisitions or integrations you know due diligence is very important and things but you know I think people still did see it until not that long ago they they saw it as important they saw it as critical to our values but they did look at it through a legal lens not that they needed to be convinced about it but it was uh well if we don't fix this or we don't find out about that there could be a legal consequence as well as it not sitting with our values right but now as the company really does push forward on some of these broader environmental and human rights and and other other issues and we have much more aggressive targets there I mean I used to say this in due diligence meetings before it's like well you've got to when you're pricing this asset you've also got to build in the remediation costs and so on right beyond just any possible penalties it's like because we fix things to suit our values right that's what we do but now that we have these more aggressive targets and because now these are sitting in people's pdrs and there are people who have got job responsibilities to deliver on some of these things they're now sort of coming to us much more proactively like well we're looking at this we're thinking about that but you know what does that mean for hitting our target for sort of you know zero admissions by by 2040 or um you know around um recycling or net water positive and so on so it's gone much more mainstream now where they were always interested but it came from a technical kind of more compliance what's the cost of doing business to uh no no I have these targets we're running for them how what is this going to do to impact it and how do we make sure it's right and fix so it's a much more they see the direct business lens a lot more now than they used to so it's kind of like it's become sexy now I guess is the way I would describe it for for some of these guys not just a legal issue yeah so you're basically connecting the commercial goals and the integrity agenda and and being more intentional and realistic about those connections rather than the business does what it does and here's a compliance preventative process sort of bolted on the top this really leads us neatly to one of the questions from the audience which is how you are thinking about incentives and performance management when it comes to ethics and integrity issues so maybe I'll hear from you again David on that and then we'll we'll go to Christian and then Anna well I mean and again so in some in some cases you've got particular people have a job to deliver particular targets right so they are directly incentivized because that's that's what they have to deliver but more broadly now these broader targets and so on sit across many different people's actual pdr objectives and so I know they're performance development thing so there's a personal now vested interest beyond any normal integrity or values now their own economic impact but I mean how our also the targets that our businesses are set and so on many of these things are factored in and we're also getting much better at things like you know if you have a if you had a compliance failure and there was a cost to it much better at sort of like well what was the real cost of that between you know not just fines penalties but loss of executive time responding to issues and so on how much time did you suck out of the business to deal with a particular issue and trying to put a cost to that and sort of getting better around the responsibility of people to sort of like well you're it was this conduct that resulted in this true cost not what you thought was the cost which might be down here just all some legal fees or whatever no no what was the true cost of the organization I think the better we can get about tracking those types of things I think also helps in people really understand you know we've always been talking for years about damage to reputation and integrity and so on licensed to operate things which is all critical but just getting down to better around well what was the true dollar cost of some of these things in the true sense amazing I've just done some work with Novartis where we found that for speaking up it's incredibly important that employees see a good ratio of exemplary to unethical behavior so you need to have some view that the company will act and take these issues seriously in order to want to speak up and raise concerns which speaks to these kind of hidden cultural costs of how something like a corruption issue can really affect value over the long term and we I mean because we sorry but it's like and it's just on that point traditionally people didn't like to sort of talk too much about these sorts of things you know and legal privilege you know Kristen sort of touched on some of the full concerns around legal privilege and everything else but you know we push much harder now to sort of like no no we're going to tell people how many speak-ups we had I mean within the organization how many speak-ups we had how many were substantiated how many senior executives may have lost their job you can do it in a way which it's not like saying well this person did x right and it shows it's very important for the organization to see that when they do speak up that there are real consequences that that happen from it 100% and nothing degrades culture faster than the sense that there's a different rule for senior people and everybody else so perfect example um Christian over to you how do you think about incentives and performance management around ethics integrity issues and how has this evolved yeah but but but just building on what what David said I mean I mean for many years for instance we have have health safety targets built into the performance system so on and of course that that always creates a special focus on a on a on a topic but again as I said before what is we want to measure here what is it I mean we do have strategies on on on climate change you too emissions and all that recyclability and all these things but again come back to social agenda what is we want to change what is it exactly we want to do and how do we measure it because if you do it the wrong way you know then then then it doesn't help and coming back to to to David's example also I mean last year we had 264 uh reports on our whistleblower hotline and then I was in a investor relations call and an investor asked us you know but shouldn't it be zero you know how come you can have 264 and we said yeah but if we have zero we know something is wrong you know and if if we have 264 we don't even know if that's enough but but that is what we have and that is what we process and then and again coming back I mean to to today's point you know that will have consequences it will be investigating all these things but again just shows you know again the perception of what are you measuring and how do you then deal with it so until you have the right way of measuring it in order to set the right course then it's actually difficult to build it into to the targets and incentives and that's not saying that we shouldn't try but it's just to give an example on that it's not easy yeah no it's certainly not um and it's been sort of flagged to me that you know very often you get a message from the company that speaking up is wonderful and valued but also there is there are penalties for managers if speaking up happens on their team so that's an example of the kind of mixed messaging that we need to do away with Anna um from our other interviews and our other research anything that Christian and David haven't mentioned that you'd like to add about incentives and performance management certainly and also something that we've seen over the years I think maybe one internal one external perspective on the internal point just again balancing this element between financial performance and sort of straight through to maximize shareholder value with what it actually takes to get there I think companies across the board are looking into this balance and focusing on what it actually takes to model culture of integrity as part of that performance so ethical growth and performance um as a business that doesn't discount for for the FX part um and I think on the external part when it comes to incentives I would also encourage us to to think about the broader network of suppliers and vendors and the fact that companies today have a tremendous economic leverage um in either elevating and celebrating trusted partners uh or blacklisting them and doing so rather publicly uh in a way that is known to to the broader sort of ecosystem of their operations but also internally to employees I think we're all are talking about really walking the walk not just talking to talk on those issues and I think we really need to to draw on those meaningful examples both internally and externally from an organization fantastic wonderful thank you and really great point about signaling I hoping we have other good questions and some quite difficult ones that I hope we get to um David um I know that you are heading from this uh panel into a board meeting so let's talk about uh board capacity board governance and the relationship between the board and the management team on these issues sure um and you know where um and this is all on our on our website um you know we tone from the top but you know people talk about it's a cliche you've seen some people's mind things but it's very very critically important and so you know we start from a very strong position as far as you know we have clear corporate governance guidelines that you know as I said anyone can see them on the website which you know very quickly sort of say the board is responsible for the you know oversight and ensuring that you know we have a global code of conduct and that that code of conduct is implemented properly and and followed and then you know so we start there and then we tear down to different board committees you know our audit committee is responsible for oversight of our of our um compliance program and code and so on and other key risk metrics of which things like human rights and a whole bunch of other things dovetail into that as well and um and you know so we have a clear structure um we have as I said before senior executives you know with the sort of either reporting the CEO or one level from the CEO who handle these areas they have direct access to and regularly present to groups such as the audit committee um they have executive sessions with the audit committee so you know if in if the global chief compliance and ethics officer didn't think that I was taking a matter seriously enough our audit committee directly deal with the chief of compliance you know in executive session and things so that they can raise any concerns or issues or or just you know speak you know more freely if they felt that was necessary we and it just continues to roll down the organization we have a very structured every single business unit we have around the world bar where we have some very small ones where we might group them with some others have a um a governance council you know that has the controller and the chief lawyer and the cfo and cfo and and um the head of hr and so on and they monitor and track all of our speakups and what what we're doing in relationship and that just rolls all the way up the chain all the way to the very top so that every quarter the head of compliance and ethics sits with the audit committee and so it says we receive x number of speakups this quarter these are the sort of you know particularly serious ones and but we report on all of them we report on what's our substantiation rate you know whether it's proven or not and to the point christian raised before most of our audit you know people like our audit committee and so on they don't want to see that the numbers dropping they want to see that the numbers are increasing that people are comfortable with speaker they don't mind if the substantiation rates 30 percent so long as we feel comfortable that we're investigating properly and getting to the bottom of things they would rather people over leverage and overuse this thing when there's nothing wrong in most of the cases just so that people are comfortable that there is a system and they can use it and they it's going to be dealt with dealt with properly um now importantly if you see your numbers going up you have to understand why right and um and we look very deep into if we said we track all the different businesses quarter to quarter what's going up what's going down why were you restructuring somewhere right so you're going to get a lot of hr type speakups and things but we track all of that um still not as automated as i would like and there's a lot of elbow grease in it but we look at it very carefully so that we make sure we're comfortable people have trust in the system but we understand why the numbers are doing what they're doing and that we feel comfortable that things are being investigated and we're getting to the bottom of issues um and to one of the points you raised before about that and then what do you do as far as third parties and what happens with them and things that can get a bit tricky as far as we certainly are quite vocal internally sometimes not as vocal externally because the the truth of the matter is sometimes where our standard is might not be where the law is in a particular country or we might not get it to a level of proof that they i could win a legal case on this so sometimes we have to be cautious about well we might not tell the world that we're stopping doing business with somebody for a particular reason because it could have major legal ramifications but it's clear internally that we're not dealing with a particular company again of course um integrity is about those judgment calls and and conclusive proof of wrongdoing is harder to find so we are making decisions about about risk and integrity and the kind of relationships that meet our corporate standards um christian same question to you governance investors and the relationship with the board between the board and executives yeah but but again i i mean we we have a fairly similar structure as as david just explained also i mean it is a trickle down effect the board of course uh ask for this and and monitor it but again it's i mean it's that that's only the the the messaging i think the important thing here is also that the systems actually they they actually find the issues and then we deal with the issues and we we kind of make the corrective actions also and that also goes up in the system it's not only that you know that many cases there many dismissals or warnings or whatever so so it is it is also to show that that that that that that we act accordingly uh on these issues but again the structure is fairly similar as as as what to what david just described fantastic um um ana um let me ask you something else because we're running a little low on time and there's all these amazing questions coming through um the the question is what advice you would give to someone who wants to improve ethical oversight in the in the organization where would you start obviously not the five points you've shared already but where should a company begin this journey i think the company actually ought to begin this journey internally um and you know david and christian shared so many great examples already of uh of their work in building ethical culture within PepsiCo investors that um i think the first uh step is that um soul searching and understanding from companies and what does the company stand uh for and uh and where there could be some of the potential pitfalls that it comes to the organization be it on the geographical level or the market level um and i think you know we will talk about the importance of uh of stakeholders and also this balance between uh risk and materiality and ESG and impact so i think we ought to have a really holistic view on what stakeholder expectations are of um of us as a company as an industry um and in informing the broader journey in building sustainable governance um and so really being strategic about um understanding these stakeholders understanding their priorities and also where do they fit relative to their expectations we cannot satisfy everybody um i think organizationally so i think creating that rigor and prioritization of expectations i think is important and a third element that i would mention um is sort of building a sense of both regional and global networks uh around these issues um i think most of us on this call on this panel are part of the b20 process um and their integrity and and compliance task force uh there are a number of other networks of course through world economic forums patchy community um in OECD um that are really crucial in building uh and sharing best practices building that sense of community um and uh and camaraderie in championing those issues but i think it's a third pillar that is really important to consider great because there was another question on multi stakeholder governance and thinking which you sort of answered i didn't ask you like you read my mind um david i know you have to jump final word of advice for the audience about where to give this this begin this journey then we'll let christian have the last word it's a big question uh so um i think it's it's very strong messaging that has to be supported from the top i said it before it sounds a bit of a cliche but i even think about i think about in certain parts of the world where we sometimes have interactions with government bodies and they you know they look or an individual looks for something that's inappropriate and so on a clear unequivocal no from us um is is quite a compelling thing sometimes it might take a little longer for something to happen but once they know that a no is a no and you're not sort of calming and aring about it um that counts a lot and i think to make sure that you know from the very top and middle management is critical here that there's not much sort of like oh well if we look at it for that angle you have to be pragmatic and practical and sensible um but it's kind of like when there's something that's wrong it's a clear no and people understand it very quickly if you see everyone in lockstep that if that's not right if that doesn't work then that's our that's our position that's our values and it's a no um and i think that's a very powerful tool as well as making sure you then have all the structures and everything else that um that comes in place but if you think you're going to be able to command and control from the small group in headquarters and police everything around them that's not going to work right it has to be embedded across the entire organization and you have to have ambassadors you have to have general managers and other people when they're holding sales meetings or whatever it is i mean it's not rocket science when everyone is talking about driving performance they always finishing with uh but we've got to do it the right way we've got to do our values people's you know your organizational health scores should test these things what are people saying not just about are they happy working somewhere but are we true to our acting with integrity are we true to our voice with voicing opinion fearlessly right what are the metrics of those make sure management are measured against them and that you're talking about and you're continuing to look for all the different data points that can point you as to whether or not you have the true culture in your organization and if you don't wear the big ticket items that you can try and do to to make the wins and move along fantastic thank you very very much um christian closing comments from you please on this question a little bit like like david always said i i mean what what is really really important when you have built the structures and you have built the whole pyramid of reporting that we explained before that is that you create the the the speak up culture that you actually create through management middle management you know the the culture where you're allowed to say stop or you're allowed to raise questions about this because that's the only way that if you can talk about things in the open and that you can test the gray zones and you know all of that and have the conversation that is that is the only way you you'll get this embedded into the culture and the decision making from you know the front line until the the the top management that that that that what we might take upon amazing thank you so much anna david christian amazing panel um please join patchy if you would like to work further on this lots and lots of information and resources there and please look out for our report launching next month and that will give a lot more depth on these questions and those we didn't get to thank you everybody so much for joining us today