 Welcome, everyone. I would, before we jump in, a few housekeeping notes. I'd like to make sure you all turn off your cameras and your audio during the presentation until the Q&A and breakout sessions begin. So as I said, welcome to Empower Us event here at KubeCon. I'm Caitlin Raymer. I lead business development for CNCF, coming to you straight from Denver, Colorado. I'm so excited to see everyone. This event continued to grow. It's even larger now that we've gone online. I think there's more than 50 of you people to hear today. So thank you. I always make a point to attend these events, really to learn from this powerful and diverse community and make lasting connections. For those of you that are new, welcome. And those of you that are returning, welcome back. This is one of the best events to kick off your KubeCon experience. So I encourage you to listen and engage today. We have an amazing panel for the discussion led by Ali Fen, president of IT Renew, who also led Empower Us at the KubeCon EMEA earlier this year. She is joined by Dean Nelson, founder and chairman of the Infrastructure Masons, Amber Carmella, CRO of Neutrality and the Global Executive Sponsor for IM Women and Paris II, a PhD student at RMIT and the first to be awarded an IM Masons PhD scholarship. We'll have an open Q&A with them after the panel and all of them will be sticking around to join you in the breakouts. Please join me with virtual claps and welcoming our panelists today. My name is Ali Fen. I'm the president at IT Renew and also work closely with the other folks on the panel here today, recently joining the board at BPS. And this is a topic, diversity and inclusion that I am super passionate about personally and we work on actively at IT Renew and I work on it in my personal and other pursuits as well. Happy to be back in the cloud native community having hosting this Empower Us session for a second time. It's a really good discussion in August from the European Summit and especially glad to be doing this in the North American Summit as well, especially as we've just seen a recent triumph of diversity in one of the highest offices in the land here. Thank you all for joining us and looking forward to a great and interactive conversation today. We all appreciate and understand this topic as humans and for purposes of equal opportunity and equity and so forth. But the facts are that actually diversity of thought and perspective and across the spectrum have really tangible impact on businesses, companies and on tech companies in particular. So I just wanted to share a couple of those because there really is, this is not just a social cause, right? This is a performance cause, right? This is important to all of us to be ever more successful as individuals and as companies working in the space. So a couple that I like, BlackRock. Larry Fink is one of my favorite thinkers and vocalists on the topic of sustainability which is near and dear to our hearts at IT Renew and me personally, but also on the subject of diversity in companies that have female directors, more than 10% more female directors than others than the base group. Those tech companies have 6% more patents issued and 7% more citations at the same level of R&D, right? So the companies are able to better perform in very tangible ways and those are tech companies specifically. BlackRock also talks a lot about LGBT supportive policies and points specifically to higher stock returns, firm value and higher productivity within companies, right? So not just firm profitability but higher productivity at the individual and the team level. Harvard Business Review also a lot of data on this. Women on boards leads to better M&A, better investment decisions, better acquisitions decisions and limits excessive risk. So an excessive risk is tied directly to lower shareholder returns. So again, there's very tangible evidence here. And the last one on site is, we live in a world of uncertainty here for lots of reasons right now, pandemic and otherwise related. The last great period of uncertainty was the 0709 financial crisis. And during that period of time, female board members reduced the negative impact to firm value, return on assets, return on equity significantly. So I would just say there's an imperative for all of us to get this right. And I think the only question then remains, how do we do it, right? How do we do it not as one-offs, but we do it as consistently across the board, a driving force in everything that we do to make sure we get to the foundation that's gonna have outsized returns for all of us. So again, reason to be here, good conversation. Dean, why don't we start with you and then go to Amber and then to Paris too for a quick introduction and then we'll dive right in. I'm the chairman and founder of Infrastructure Masons which is a professional association of the builders of the digital age, which all three of the folks on the board with me here are a part of that. And we are here to unite those builders of the digital age. And part of the things that we focus on are diversity, inclusion, education, sustainability, industry awareness, and also technology innovation itself. And we spent a lot of time really focusing on how we can change the diversity numbers within our industry itself because honestly, they're a bit abysmal. We're less than 10% female when it comes to actual people in our industry. And then even lower numbers of that for other underrepresented groups. Ali, as you said before, the more diversity of thought, experience, expression, the better the outcome because debate is good and it brings out just different things that you would never think of if you had a lot of like-minded, like-experienced people in the same room. And so I try to do that in the decisions I make. In the end, it's important for people like me, which are Caucasian men over 50, to step in and actually do something different than hire Caucasian men over 50 for executive positions. So we have to hit this at the senior level or else things will not change, but we also need to make sure we're bringing it up from the other end. So we're gonna connect this all the way through. We have to attract new talent. First, just gonna talk about that as well. We have to be able to help people that are in our industry get opportunities, get promoted, right? Be supported, have mentors, have champions, et cetera. And then we need to lead by example in the executives because if you can't see what's up there, how could you ever aspire to be there? Excellent, great to have you, Dean. And especially that perspective because it's an important one, right? Amber, let's jump to you. Yes, hi, I'm Amber Caramela. I'm the Chief Revenue Officer at Neutrality Data Centers. Within Infrastructure Masons, I'm the Global Executive Sponsor for IAM Women, as well as on the Diversity Inclusion Committee. I've always been passionate about promoting diversity and inclusion as well as promoting women to pursue careers in technical infrastructure. And I'm glad to be here, thank you. Terrific, very glad to have you, Amber. Baristu, how about you? Hello, everyone, and thank you very much to having made on this panel. My name is Baristu Amin, and I am a researcher and a PhD student at RMIT in Melbourne, Australia. My main focus is on Green Data Centers and adoption and value of the Green Data Center standards all around the world. And I am one of the recipients of the IMAISAN Scholarship, which is I am very thankful and pleased of. I'd love it if each of you guys could just kind of give your perspective on, you know, what does diversity and inclusion mean to you personally? Oh, yes. I can start with this fact that in the first place, I got familiar with this issue, the lack of gender diversity in the ICT industry while I was beginning my research. Actually, in collection of my data for my research, I can say that out of around 200-something data that I was collected, only three or four of them was from women in the industry, and it was very shocking for me as well. And I can add that if we lose half of the humanity from this industry, we will lose the potential transformative innovation, invention, and insight from this industry. And if we can draw and get more women, I mean the talented and well-educated women in this industry, we can close this gap in the industry. We will get all of the humanity, we'll get advantage and benefit from this issue. I think that having diversity in the workplace is absolutely critical for companies not only to grow and transform, but to stay relevant. As we all know, having a diverse workforce, it does promote diversity of thought. And it really starts with owning diversity and inclusion with every action you do. So when I think about diversity and inclusion, I think about recruiting and retaining a diverse workforce. And there's several actions that have to happen to do that. And you have to live it every day. And it starts with how you recruit, how you talk to people in the industry. When you hire people, what career path and mentorship programs you do. And I'm very, very passionate about that because there is a talent gap. And we need to focus on that. That's a real problem. I have a hard time finding the people I want to recruit. It's not easy, right? Which means that there is a problem of pipeline and access and so forth. So it's a very concerted effort of mine and the teams that I interview, but it's a challenge, right? We don't have enough talent coming in. The pipeline is drying up. And that's why people like Paris two are so important because as the first recipient of our PhD scholarship, by the way, we were very happy to grant that to you. Thank you for becoming into our industry here. That is how we start to go back and attract people to come in. We have money to give away. We have scholarships and aligns with all these schools. We need them to be aware, right? And so just this last week, we granted another 12 scholarships to historically black colleges and universities and Hispanic institutions. And we're just getting the opportunities for people. The whole point is to just have them be exposed to what's there. But that doesn't solve our current problem, which is we're all going after the same talent and there's a smaller pool to choose from. And there's a great example, Christian Bellotti who ran all the data center stuff from Microsoft uses this example at a time that makes so much sense to me. He needed somebody to handle their mission critical supply chain management. I mean, they're delivering huge amounts of capacity. He couldn't find people. So he went back and looked at other critical, mission critical supply chain experts. And so he went to the dairy industry, the dairy industry. Think about that. Why? The dairy is a business enterprise establishment. Siri just explained to me what the dairy industry is. That's great. Thank you, Siri. That was very nice of you. Yeah, technology. I'm going to turn her off. Okay, so, but he went to the dairy industry because they have very limited amounts of time to actually deliver milk before it spoils. So all the skill sets, all the different things in there to make sure that you deliver that is completely applicable to, it's just another element and it's time critical, right? Yeah. And so I look at that thinking, are we limiting ourselves by only considering certain pools of talent? Right? And as Paris, you said, we're missing half the population just from a gender standpoint, but we're also missing all these other skill sets with all these critical capabilities, critical thinking, right? Organization, like all that, that we can bring them in, we can teach them tech. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I look at that as that there's a big pool opportunity there if we change the way we approach it. I think that's absolutely right. In fact, I had this conversation with, actually somebody I've mentored a bit and was on her board for a while as well in the ocean space on the conservation front and who's applying for a new job. And she's got a big interview tomorrow for a new job, she's a lawyer, she's going to interview to be a COO at a new company. And I gave her the exact same advice that what I look for when I'm hiring somebody is the functional capabilities, the skills, the expertise, not in the way of the method of thinking not the domain expertise because the domain expertise can be taught. The actual skill that you need to have is much harder to teach, right? It's like either you're able to think about complex problems or ecosystems or technology or whatever the problem set is in a way that's creative and sophisticated and so forth. But that's much more important than I've done this exact same thing 10 times before. There's a huge pool of talent right there. It's been there. We just have never actually found that pipeline. And so I think that the, I would suggest that you go back and take the different people with different perspectives in your teams and I'm saying like where they went to school, right? Where they worked, et cetera. Get their perspectives on where those pools can be because like you said, you're limiting yourself with what you have in your own exposure for it. And then the last thing is that the, I think while we can't mandate quotas and those types of things within recruiting, et cetera, you can influence what's happening. Even starting with job descriptions, they themselves can have an unconscious bias when written. A lot of companies are realizing this and they're improving their efforts as it relates to recruiters and hiring practices. But that is certainly a starting point. I also think you need more role models out there when you're recruiting candidates. It's really, really important that you showcase what good looks like as it relates to diversity and inclusion. So you need more role models out there that are increasing the visibility. So to recruit people to say, these are, this is what's possible for the youth and you can start when they're young and the key is the target when they're young as well as people who are aspiring to change job careers and get into the tech industry is to have them see more faces like us that have a long viable career. Yeah, great thoughts. And I hope that just in some small way we're doing that today with this panel. Then there's another thing and I wanna come back to you, Paris, too cause you made some interesting comments recently about this. Once we get candidates in the door, what about the confidence problem? What about the self-promotion problem? What about like, how do we get people who are maybe just less inclined to be aggressively hunting, self-promoting and confidently building their networks and all the stuff that it takes to then advance up the career path? I'm curious, Paris, do you made some interesting comments recently about what the scholarship did to your confidence? Or do you wanna share some thoughts about that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, actually in this field and in the field of building confidence and self-promotion, getting some opportunities. For example, like getting a scholarship is very important. For example, referring to my experience as a recipient of this scholarship from IMAISIS, I can add that money is something but the opportunities that come after getting the scholarship is something else which is more important. For example, for me, after I got this scholarship I was invited to join the IMAISIS Education Committee here in Australia, which I had the chance to meet and grow my network and build my network with the expert people in the industry here in Australia which I can share my insights with them, build my confidence and also have other ideas as well that in this way I could grow my network here in Australia and also worldwide. Here I have a good network that I can refer to them whenever I have any question or whenever I have any problem. And also, for example, I could find a volunteering position in a data center here in Australia after I got the scholarship, which I never could imagine of because getting the volunteering or internship position in a data center is very difficult. This is a theme that I keep coming back to because it is so important to get that compounding effect and we do need the communities coming together, communities of diverse people. Brings me back to you, Amber, this idea of self-promotion, right? Let's try to make this panel tangible for people that are maybe in the session today, right? What advice do we have? You've mentored a lot of women. I'm interested in how you would coach people who might be earlier in their careers looking for opportunities or at some sort of a mid-level looking to break through to an executive level. Do you have ideas that you could help share as advice? Yeah, yeah, this is an important point because, as I was mentioning before, retention is key, too. And retention has to do with career-papping, mentorship, career paths so you don't lose people in the industry. One of my favorite speakers, Carla Harris, she talks about the success equation and made up of two factors and it's performance currency and relationship currency. And performance equity is, it has the diminishing returns because it's a standard. So I learned it very early on that performance is early on in your career, gives you opportunity, it gives you a career path, it gives you an opportunity for promotion. But if you don't work on the self-branding and the self-promoting, there is a ceiling and you've got to be comfortable with self-promoting and taking risks. You have to have a voice. If you submerge your voice, you will become irrelevant and you need to feel really, really comfortable to have a safe group of mentors that also can mentor and promote on your behalf as well. But it does start with feeling comfortable with self-promotion. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I've tried to help people that I've mentored over the years to try to wrestle with this, right? Because it's not a natural skill for a lot of people. A lot of women or people who feel like a minority in a group. It's not an easy thing to do to self-promote and people are rightly concerned that that also can go the other direction and go off badly, right? It's really an arc, right? And the advice that I tend to give on it is the way that you can self-promote with confidence and self-promote successfully and walk that balance is to do it based on data. Always be an expert. Know that your opinions are well-founded. Know that you've done the work so that you can then advocate for yourself and whatever the issue is or the deal or the project, whatever it is that you're advocating for and your own self, your own value, your own opportunity, as long as it's based in fact and analysis and hard work and you know that you've put in that effort then self-promote away, right? It's not, where you get into trouble is people who want to self-promote and they haven't done the work. It's just being consistent with your behaviors too, right? It's being authentic, you're right. I mean, there's certainly a data and performance attributes to that but being consistent with those behaviors is what creates your brand. Absolutely, because ultimately, this is all about long-term, right? These are not short-term gains, right? The whole thing which is another kind of thread here which is interesting, right? We're talking about stepping through a career. We all have very long careers and personal, like whatever it is, right? You want to play the long game here, right? You can go company to company, you can go industry to industry but your relationships and your reputation follow you. The last piece of this for me is that, you know, mentoring, finding people, so those relationships that are there, being able to have a conversation with somebody that is comfortable enough that they can tell you things you didn't want to hear and you will listen to it. That's, you got to be open to that and especially if you're going to go back and get a senior leader or somebody else who is going to help shape you, right? Help you give the opportunities. You need to be able to take that critical feedback and that's very difficult at times when you say, well, no, no, I'm good at that. Self-reflection, understanding, right? Resetting and rethinking will help you in an immense way. Sri Sivananda was a boss of mine at eBay Inc, right? And he brought together eBay and PayPal. We merged them and then we split them and now he's the CTO over at PayPal. And he had a really interesting way that he assessed people and I've used this for years now, right? You've got basically IQ, right? And then you've got emotional, so, right? EQ, so that can they have the maturity? And then they've got CQ, which is curiosity quotient as well. And I love this because first off, if you need to be smart, you need to go train yourself, right? You need to be balanced when it comes to how you deal with things. And the last one is you need to be curious about what you're doing because, you know, think about Paris too, what's she doing? Research, she's curious, she's digging in, she's finding information, she's gonna see patterns and things that others aren't doing, right? Or seeing because they're not as curious. So if you can find those three factors and you can consider yourself in those three factors, the opportunities just open up in front of you. 100%, 100% agree with you. We're gonna have a super lively Q&A here, hopefully. And then we'll have some breakout sessions. And so there's gonna be great discussion. I'd love to get the broader group involved in the discussion at this point. But as we do that, I don't wanna leave Paris too out from the advice question. I'd love if we just before the Q&A, before we turn over Q&A, perhaps advice from you at, you know, from where you sit in the industry right now and you're at the stage of your career, it'd be great if you had any thoughts to share as well before we turn it open. It is very important to change and develop our policies, strategies in the industry and also to integrate the gender perspective into our policy plannings, implementations and development when we are designing our workplaces or when we are wants to recruit that people. I think these issues very important. I agree with you. We have, that is what will help us to be, you know, not just individual actors, right? Who are trying to make a difference in our own small way, but we'll be able to make more systemic, systematic and systemic level change, which is ultimately what we're all striving towards here. So absolutely super important. With that, I thank all of you guys for joining us and we will open it up to Q&A and then breakout sessions and we will all be here throughout to engage with everybody in the community. So thank you all very much and we'll talk to you soon. Yes, thank you. Well, terrific. So I hope everybody enjoyed the panel discussion. Thank you for joining us. We're super excited, all of us and passionate about this topic of diversity and inclusion. And we were really grateful to engage in conversation with everybody. So as was described, we're going to do a brief Q&A and then we'll move into breakouts and we've got some breakout topics. We would love to get the community actively engaged on. Looks like actually the first question is one about community. And so I'm going to toss this to probably both Dean and Amber, which is you guys are both a part of iMason's. What advice would you have or suggestions would you offer to this, the CNCF community as to how to better foster diversity and inclusion? And I will tell you that I personally looked at the list of speakers while we were preparing for this and it doesn't take much to see that there's significantly gender imbalance in the list of speakers here at KubeCon. So what do you guys as iMason's community leaders have to offer to the CNCF community? Amber, would you like to start? I think you're muted, Amber. I'll have Siri fix that. Yeah, that had to happen at least once today. Yeah, so our core focus is really getting out there and creating visibility around many underrepresented groups. So we talk a lot about diversity and inclusion and that doesn't just include women, right? It includes a variety of different groups out there. And so our charter has been to go out there and educate the communities and attract people to help our cause. It's not just for recruiting and helping the talent gap and shortage, but it really is about educating people around the benefits of diversity and inclusion to organizations. So iMason's has been one of the strongest communities for that that I've had experience to be part of because it really focuses on digital infrastructure and really recruiting underrepresented groups to participate and have careers. And that spans across many member resource groups that we have. I lead, I am women, so women, but we have a lot of other groups. We've got millennials, Gen Zs. We've got, we have Hispanics, Latinx. We've got the veterans community. We've got, Dean, help me out. There's one mother. Yes, there's more underdevelopment. Yeah, there's more. Yeah, there's more underdevelopment. Because we continue to hone in on other groups. Yeah, yeah, Latinx is the other one. Hispanic Latinx has popped up as well. And like we're saying, we have more groups that we want them to be genuine. So when they come together, it's actually driven by a champion. So we've had our members step up and say, we would like to create this member resource group to be able to focus on the community. You know, and thank you, Amber, for your leadership because you stepping in as exactly a sponsor to unite women around the world that are in the digital infrastructure industry is really critical. And, you know, I look at this as a, we have what we have. In other words, there is a limitation today. Doesn't mean that's what the future should look like. So let's just, again, we've done our research and we've got 10% women within our industry. So what we've been doing is pooling that talent together. And then, you know, what Amber's team has been doing is around the, also a speaker's bureau. Very simple thing here, because if you just look at this conference and every other conference, there's a gap in diversity, right? And starting with gender, just to try and get some more voices in. So we've got a ton of experts and we pooled them together. And so we want them to be able to have access to these options, right? But there's also a mindset. The simple, easy button is just get the same people and they happen to be Caucasian men, right? Or there's a lot of them. Let's diversify and open up that pool. And so we're trying to help on that side as well. That actually leads directly into another question that came in, which is to Dean specifically, you are the self-proclaimed white guy over 50, but clearly care about this. How are you influencing your peers? So great question. So I look at this in two ways. One is I think that I have a responsibility at my level and in my role in what I'm doing to lead by example, as simple as that. And so finding the talent, building up the opportunities, opening those doors. And I would like to say I'm extremely proud. Two people on this panel are actually on my board of directors now. So Ali and we just announced Amber this morning as well of joining that. And ladies, you have such an impressive career and I'm just humbled that you're joining to be able to help us with that. But I look at this as if we don't lead by example and we don't take it seriously, nothing will change. And as we were talking about in the panel earlier, it has to be at every level. And if there isn't focus to say that we must have people in the seats that make the biggest decisions for the companies and other things, then things will not change. And so this is a perfect example. We find the talent, right? And you guys have all three of those cues by the way and more, right? The IQ, the EQ, the CQ and you also get the other cool factor. But just bringing the people in to be able to do that, that starts a wave because other people will see first off, oh, okay, well, who else is out there? And then also that it just gets them thinking more. So that's one. And then the second is that the community itself having that conversation, that's why a Mason's is so important. Without us coming together, we're uniting the builders of the digital age on these strategic priorities. And by doing that, it's getting everyone's passions and aligning that and we aggregate and amplify that work of all those people and those companies. Yeah, agreed. I mean, the communication, the collaboration, the transparency, the education, all super, super critical. I'm seeing another question in the messages to everyone that just came in. You mentioned training domain knowledge which can be at odds with self-promoting with data. Do you have any advice on the tendency to doubt our competence and our skills? My thought on this is, when I talk about leading with data and analysis and being well-grounded in having done the work, you have to be based in experience and that applies to domain experience too, right? I'm not suggesting, my comment about functional expertise is more important than domain expertise. Both are critically important, right? But one is much more teachable. So I think the comment about, don't worry so much about domain expertise is really about how are we expanding the pool, right? There might be people in this group today that could be fantastic fits for something else that who knows? So I think those, in my mind, they're not mutually exclusive at all. It is a home run. If you have not only the EQ, the IQ, the CQ, but also the functional skill and also the domain expertise, and that's a home run, right? You're gonna have a rocket ship career, but I think to think about your own career path from a, what am I really, really good at? And if I wanna apply those skills in a different way, go do the work to learn that thing. I'm not suggesting you don't have to, but sometimes from the other side, when you're recruiting, it's easier to find, you can expand your pool of resources if you think more broadly than starting with the domain expertise, right? So I think both are important. Another question, you talked about the bias in recruiting pipeline. Is there a group or an offering that can help identify bias in job posting, job descriptions? Amber, I'm gonna toss that one back to you because I have my perspective on it, but I know you've worked very closely on this specific issue. Yeah, so there's a lot of resources out there that you can leverage. Infrastructure Mason's right now, we're working on the best practice guide that we will make public in Q4 that will give a lot of best practices from some of the top companies across the world. But it's little things, right? It's like what Dean said, it's really top down leadership of owning the environment you wanna create relative to diversity and inclusion. And it's starting with job descriptions and making sure that they're more inclusive. It starts with training your recruiters to have a balanced pool of talent. It's the little things like that. So there's a lot of resources out there that will certainly promote the best practice guide because again, it's a start. It's not completely conclusive, but it's a start. And I don't have a sort of set list of resources off my head, but I actually will take that as a follow-up action to go find because I think it's a very, it would be one thing that we could do to help the community is to help surface that list of organizations. And I'm certain that there are HR organizations and thought leaders out there who are doing exactly this, right? It comes down to everything from, each one of us probably has a tendency to look at the schools that we went to or the companies that we worked at and so forth. And so I think it's everywhere. It's far more nuanced than GMI using pronouns in my job description, right? So I think it is deeper. And I think there are people who are thinking about, who will have perspectives that could be, become standardized or more broadly spread. So great question. Another question that came in privately, beyond recruiting, it's also about equal opportunity and retention. And how do you feel specifically about the work on pay equity? Obviously, this is a hot button topic. Some people are being transparent about their pay. Some people are not. It's also very hard to kind of equalize levels of roles within companies and so forth. But I personally feel very strongly about the fact that there should be absolute pay equity and every company and every board we do it at IT Renew have a very strong perspective about this. Dean, I'm curious, you are the CEO of a startup company. How are you, how would you respond to this question? Yeah, no matter what, it's gotta be the executive level because if there's not a policy in place then it's not gonna change. So absolutely, I think there's one there. And I wanna give you an example of this that was painful and I think extremely rewarding. If you look at Uber, I worked there for three years, right? And there was a lot of things that popped back up that were very public. And I questioned myself on a lot of things within those conversations about what company I'm working for, what values do they have and what are they actually doing? And so the good thing is that we had the ability to influence in that as leaders within that company. And so I was very proud of what work they did because of that issue. It was exposed. It was basically shown that this diversity of pay was real, right? They've been talking about that, but now there's tangible numbers in front of it. So what they did at the very senior levels, starting with HR across the entire C-suite was they took that data and then they went and fixed it. They got board approval and they took a complete swath across it because they had data-driven decisions and they changed it and all of a sudden they had probably the best parity in pay because they went through the painful exercise of having the realization of what it was. So I would say anybody who's watching this one, go have that real conversation yourself. Sit down and open up that list and look. And it's very interesting when you start to go double click in the unconscious biases by so many different people over years and what happens in those companies, you gotta fix that. Because if not, those policies, if you don't have them in place, it's just gonna be systemic and continue to be propagating. Yeah, that's right. That's totally right. I think calling people on their stuff is essential. It's also challenging, right? Depending on where you sit in the organization, but it takes leaders to come together and do it, right? There's courage and confidence in numbers and power in numbers as well too. I'm gonna take one more question here quickly that's coming in and then I wanna get us to the breakout session so that we can, you guys can all engage with each other because we wanna make this tangible and have people share experiences more broadly than just ours. Last question is, how can we drive change in our companies when you see a token woman VP leader or only one woman on a board of directors out of five or six? I'm heading to a company with a female CEO, but there's only two women execs out of 12. And I think everything we're talking about, right? I mean, it starts from each one of us at every level, recruiting, mentoring, building up the breadth of pipeline because you can't have equal distribution at the top if you don't have equal distribution at the VP level and if you don't have equal distribution at the developer level, you can't at the PhD level, Paris do's perspective, right? We have to, every single one of us need to work on this and make it a muscle, right? These can't be one-off actions that one of us hires somebody or one of us something else because, and it's a pyramid, right? We're not gonna solve the equal numbers at the top problem unless we all work on the bottom. So I would say, you know what? If you're heading to that company, contribute, bring women with you, bring people of color with you, bring much more diversity with you because it's the only way that we're gonna get there, right? Okay, with that, if you guys can turn to the breakout topic slides, there will be a number of breakout sessions. We will be joining them and popping around a little bit but really designed for you guys to engage with each other and share experiences, ask questions and so forth. So they're here on your screen for you, they will not be captured in the breakout room so read them, take note, take a screenshot. Some of the stuff we've talked about, confidence in self-promotion or challenges for everyone, how have you handled these in the past? Do you have a story or advice to share with your peers? What's the one thing you'll do differently after this session or for yourself or someone you mentor? And then secondly, what actions is your organization taking to support a diverse and inclusive workplace? What would you do to address anything that is holding them back? What difference would it make in your organization if there was a focus on DNI? Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, right? So again, look forward to everybody engaging because we're short on time, we will not be coming back as a group to do readouts after this, but we thank you in advance. We hope you have a fruitful discussion and I'll just close it with all of the contact information for all of us on the panel is here on this last slide. Please reach out to us. I will take the action, as I said, to come up with some resources and figure out a way with the cloud native community to share those back to the audience. But head to have fun in the breakouts and thank you and have a good rest of your event.