 This is your host, Beatriz Cantelmo. June 2nd is observed as the International Sex Walkers Day, or Halls Day, across the globe. And Hall Day recognizes the exploited walking conditions that sex walkers are subjected to all over the globe. This is a holiday that has been observed since 1976. So today's topic will be addressing the many facets of sex walk at the global and local level. And we can all talk about sex walk without hearing the voices of those who are directly involved in the trade. We are so blessed to have a dog up as our guest. Dog is a sex walker advocate, an occasional sex walker and the founder of Horse Stage and Zikazine, and also an amazing person who have a lot of expertise in the subject. And we can also not talk about sex walk without devoting some time to examine sex and our relationship with sex. And thanks to the sexual revolution movement, many societies went through profound changes in attitudes towards sexuality, homosexuality, premarital sexuality in sex and freedom of sexual expression. And although it's true that many people still carry conservative attitudes towards sex and sexuality, for the most part it is socially acceptable for men and women to have sex as often as they want and with whom they want, as long as it is consensual. Some people choose to not get married or be in a relationship at all. And many choose to live a single life, which is not to be confused with being alone. In 2018, one has the option to be in a monogamous, polyamorous, long-term, full-term or casual relationships. Yet sex walker and sex walker's rights are not recognized in most societies. Most countries have laws that make sex walk illegal, and both sex walkers and their clients are heavily penalized for choosing to have adult consensual sex. So let's talk about that and much more. On that note, welcome! Thank you! Wow! Yes! Shaka and Aloha! Aloha! So, Dolga, just give our viewers a little blurb about you as a person. Where do you come from? And what do you want our viewers to know about and, you know, where you're sitting here? So, you know, every day you have someone, you know, to openly identify themselves as an occasional sex walker and as a sex walker advocate. Um, hi. I grew up in Hawaii and during the 80s. And so, I guess as a queer kid, you're hearing about all this, like, dangers of having sex. And if you're gay, you could go to hell and all these kind of things. I had all these mixed messages in my brain and everything like that. But then, luckily, you know, the — I think it's basically the people in the HIV community standing up and saying, look, you know, you've got to pay attention to all these people that are dying. And that was sort of like something that I kind of latched onto because I had an uncle who was married to my auntie and he died of AIDS, but we weren't allowed to talk about it. So just being, you know, subject — they're affected, yeah, to, like, you know, what that's all about, HIV, AIDS and all that, but not being able to talk about it created all this conflict in me. And so then later on, when I was dealing with my own issues, I was thinking, like, you know, I can't just be quiet about things because I'm lucky as a light-skinned guy who speaks English, you know, I have a lot of, you know, opportunities and privileges. And a lot of my friends, you know, are looking at me like, mm-hmm, you know. So just I think, you know, over the years, I've learned to try to use my voice to, like, amplify other people's voices who don't have the privileges that I do. I don't speak for them. I only speak for myself. But we agree on a lot of stuff, you know, and they've taught me a lot of stuff. So even if something doesn't affect me directly, my behaviors and the people that aren't affected still, you know, reflect onto other, you know, populations. And so how did you choose to do sex work in your life? And when did you decide that, yeah, this is work, and I want to do it, and I'm going for it? I think during the 90s, there was, like, a lot of movies about guys who do sex work. Like Private Idaho and Johns and all these other kind of movies that, you know, some were just Hollywood made-up stories, some kind of involved, you know, the people that were, you know, involved in sex work. And so I saw that living in Hollywood at the time, and because the only way I got around was on a skateboard in West Hollywood is I would see, you know, people on the street all the time, whether they're homeless or, you know, selling dope or whatever. And I got to know a lot of them, and sometimes our conversations would get cut short because they had to jump into a car. And so, you know, I realized what was going on. But I remember even before that, I remember when I was visiting L.A., driving through West Hollywood on Santa Monica Boulevard, and my auntie then pointing out, look, those boys are selling sex, and I was like, what? You know, you're not allowed to talk about sex, especially between two guys, and there's people on the street selling it, you know? So there was all that going on and living in L.A. during all that, you know, still a lot of AIDS scare, and West Hollywood's like a total gay ghetto, so you're kind of really immersed in a lot of that politics and stuff like that. So I heard about all that stuff, and then one day I was talking to a friend on the street, and this van kept going around. And I was like, okay, you know, maybe I should let you work. So I started walking away. And I was all club-kitted out with, like, little blonde dread standing up and like some, like, denim dress. I was really ugly. But then so I'm walking, I was skating home, and the van stops and asked if I needed a ride. And I was like, no, okay. And so then I keep going, and then he's at the next corner. He's all, you know, you sure? I can give you money. And I'm like, well, do you owe me money? He's like, yeah, I was like, for what? He's all having fun. I won't cut some of the internet. But then so I was like, okay, I jumped in. Most of the date was talking, because he's a really lonely, old guy, and I don't remember his whole story. But most of it was talking, and we didn't even, like, complete an act or anything. He just gave me 50 bucks or whatever it was. And I went to the donut shop after that, and, you know, just living around that and meeting all these people, it was there. I saw my friends every night. They weren't giving their money to anybody. They were, you know, working to keep their money. That's what I did. And so it just kind of became a thing. I didn't always do it. Not like everybody was interested in me the way I looked. But there were some people that were down, and if they didn't seem scary, then sometimes I might say yes. So you did it part-time, but this has been an income, and a job, and that you have no hang up about it. I don't really have hang ups about it. It's not like, it's something that I always love to do. And, you know, luckily I get to say no, you know? So let's talk a little bit about this, because I think the perception that goes around the world, and, you know, you have this part, the life-sex walkers are victim. And also, I think that there is a misperception of what a sex walker looks like and their clients, vassals, what really is going on in the community. So from your perspective and from what you have seen with your peers, do you agree that sex walkers are victims? I don't think that sex workers are victims. Sex workers are adults who choose to exchange sex for something of value. There's a conscious decision. There's consent there. So adult consensual sex workers are not victims of that act. We are victimized by the law and by police a lot of times. A lot of people that talk about the victims, sex workers and the sex worker rights movement, we acknowledge the victims. A lot of people just affected by trafficking. A lot of people affected by trafficking later on do sex work. Or some people start off as sex workers, become exploited. So I don't agree with that. But if you want to talk about people that are exploited, there's a lot of that in the sex worker rights movement. So let's talk, since you touched on that subject, let's talk about the difference. So it's a very distinct difference, not only in definition, in reality, between a sex worker that will do sex work with consent, another consenting adult by choice, versus a sex trafficked victim, which is an entire different category. The definition of trafficking is just somebody that's forced into labor, under force, fraud or coercion. And we acknowledge that. We involve all voices in the sex worker rights movement. It's just that the people that are allegedly anti-trafficking, they're actually this rescue industry that excludes sex workers and don't want to hear their voices unless they say, okay, I'm a victim. Okay, well then come on in. But other than that, they ignore it. And I think part of that line of thinking is that... It's exclusionary. Not only it's exclusionary, but it takes the power of someone who actually is in the trade. It is doing work, because sex work is work. And also, it takes the power and empowerment of an adult who has made that choice to say, I have a choice to work in this field or work in a different field. And I'm choosing to work in this field. And I might work in other fields at the same time. And I may work at the same time or I may exclusively do it in this area. Or just one level. Exactly. And so the part I think that's very hard for a lot of people is that nowadays, with legislation, there is a lot of confusion that if you support sex workers' rights, you're also supporting sex trafficking. They're two different things. And they're very different things. So let's talk a little bit about that from your perspective. How do you see the differences? And when you see laws being created that criminalizes sex workers and actually categorized sex workers and their clients in the same category as sex trafficking and promotion or sex trafficking person, what does that do to a sex worker and their client? But what does that do also to somebody who is in the position of being sex trafficked? Right now the biggest problem that we have and actually Human Rights Watch and the Woodhull Freedom Foundation have a lawsuit against the United States because of this law that they just enacted called FOSTA or CESTA. And what it is basically it says that anybody who is trafficked can blame the website that an ad showed up on that maybe have facilitated some kind of abuse and sue the websites. So now, but the way the law is written is very vague and can be interpreted super widely. So all these websites are afraid and just pulling themselves off the internet or pulling down sections that affect other people's lives too and it's actually hurting people around the world because a lot of places people work under criminalization but still use those websites but there's a lot of places where it's legalized or even decriminalized that people were working and thriving because they had a place to vet their clients, to advertise, to do a lot of things to keep themselves safe, to communicate but now that all those websites are gone a lot of people are forced onto the street because they don't have the internet to work from home and a lot of people who started working on the internet are now scared because they either don't have a place to work or they're forced onto the street and pimps know that this law is hurting people so they're calling people and calling women and saying like, well, too bad but I can get you some work and so it's really hurting people because sex workers weren't consulted on this law that was supposed to stop sex trafficking but it's actually facilitating trafficking because these websites were places that law enforcement went to to track people to see like, okay, this person has been kind of sketchy and let's see what they're doing but now law enforcement doesn't even have that tool to stop trafficking so there's a lot of things that are actually falling apart and it's because we weren't given a voice so a law that was supposed to prevent and to intervene in cases of sex trafficking actually backfired not only because the sex traffickers are in a position of empowerment now but also because of the criminalization aspect of it and the sex workers are not to be confused as being sex trafficked or a sex trafficker because sexual sex workers can't report a crime are also in more danger because they are now not able to plan for their own outings they don't have a way to screen their clients perhaps and there's a lot of money that you invest to become your own self-employed sex worker you pay for, you know, we contribute to the economy hair, makeup, nails, you know wardrobe, video, websites paying taxes a lot of people do pay taxes out of the world yes and so all of that now is pushed aside and so it's not that there is an increase of sex workers it's that they're more visible on the streets because it's the way that they... because they're visible on the street they're vulnerable because already the public has no respect for them the police are, you know, told you have to go arrest somebody who's trying to survive they have... there's lots of options this may be the best option this may be one of many options but people that are trying to, you know, live in this world under all the pressures are doing something, you know maybe they just need to like pay for their medical care or, you know, send their kids to daycare or something but it's something in the way let's take a one-minute break and then we'll continue with this dialogue Hello, everyone. I'm DeSoto Brown, the co-host of Human Humane Architecture which is seen on Think Tech, Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. and with the show's host, Martin Desbang, we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live but other aspects of our life, not only here in Hawaii but internationally as well so join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech, Hawaii Welcome to Perspectives on Global Justice, Think Tech, Hawaii this is your host, Beatrice Cantomo and I am back with Doug Up and so here we are having a conversation about sex and sex walk and the conceptual sex walk and the situation of the extent of criminalization that sex walkers and their clients go through and how that not only is harming sex walkers but it's also harming sex traffickers, victims so I think a lot of people have a confusion about weight if we prohibit sex walk as an activity we're going to automatically prevent sex trafficking from happening but I don't think that people understand why does this not work so talk to me about why it's not working Well, I haven't personally experienced trafficking I can't speak from experience or firsthand but I listen to people that have been there and the way that these laws work some people are under the control of another person and that person that is controlling this exploiter doesn't care how they make the money they just tell them go make this money and so whatever they got to do and so sometimes there's a website that allows you to make some money and that might be your only way to reach clients one thing that they like to push now this anti-trafficking rescue industry people is what's called sometimes the Swedish model Nordic model or the end demand approach where you treat everybody who is an adult consensual sex worker as a victim you don't listen to what their concerns are you just say oh, put in you, sorry and you just feel sorry for them but say you're not criminalized so this person can set up a business spend all the money, do all the investments but what they're actually doing is becoming bait for their clients because the clients are criminalized and so this person can't make money and if there is an abusive situation going on the clients can't even report it because they're the criminal it's easier to arrest someone breaking the law than to listen to their concerns and their reporting and I think the other thing that most people don't consider when you criminalize a trade such as sex work is that those who are in the industry of sex work are least likely to report a situation where trafficking is occurring that they may be aware of or even their clients for fear of persecution so that gives actually more power to a sex trafficker and for the actual business anybody who has a bad time I think any society that have worked towards decriminalization of sex work have found that actually not only the sex workers are safer from a standpoint of their own personal safety because if they're not afraid of the cops they're not afraid of the cops but if something happens if it's funny they can report it or if it's legal there's a difference between legalization and decriminalization and we're going to talk a little bit about that so that's the part of the fear and that is eliminated there is a relationship with law enforcement they also are not afraid to seek medical care because there's less stigma it hasn't been erased by decriminalization but there's less stigma when you're not a criminal you can ask for services you can ask for justice and so when sex work is criminalized and look from that frame of it is wrong and it's a crime you actually end up hurting more people than helping them because also if you have a criminal record for sex work or prostitution you can't get other work so criminalization creates a cycle where it's someone who is just a lot of people say I would never do that or you'd have to pay me a lot of money it's like well some people don't want to do it but they're pushed to it or some people can make a lot of money so already those two situations are shut down but I'm getting lost in my words already I do that you're passionate now you're talking about the impact the ripple effect of criminalization in the life of a sex worker so you get arrested and you have a prostitution charge people are already not very hospitable to women who make sexual decisions for themselves so if somebody decides to make money and do something that's criminalized police aren't going to have much respect for you and you might have heard on the news that police aren't very helpful to a lot of people so criminalizing someone who's trying to survive is actually keeping them in the underground economy because already a charge against them prevents employment so if father the stigma and if father is also the victimization the systemic victimization not only from law enforcement from the entire legal system but society their reinforcement you're a dirty you're doing something wrong you're a criminal and yet I think it's very hard to have this conversation of sex without examining our own relationship with sex because I find it quite hypocritical that a person an adult is able to go to a diet have dinner, not have dinner and choose to go and have consensual sex with someone or marry someone or be in a relationship with someone and the exchange is somebody spying the bills or paying for something and that is acceptable however a person who chooses to say you know what, I want the money up front and I'm going to do all the other things too I want the temporary, but it is consensual and I think that the key here that I think in terms of society that we need to start really looking a little bit more in the eye of the tiger is that like look what happens between closed doors or cars or whatever between two adult consenting two consenting adults or more so we can't assume it's just going to be two people it's their business don't assume that we're victims you know keep law enforcement out of our lives until we send for them if we say that something went wrong or our rights were violated then come and listen to us and then believe us and act on that I think that the merit of having this conversation with you today is the fact that you know you are an advocate so now you understand the notes and boards of advocacy but you're also speaking in your own voice and I don't think that a policy maker or someone who runs a program can argue differently I understand that there is part of ignoring but for example in San Francisco when Foster Sesta was implemented one of the first things that the Department of Public Health and the women caucus you know group did was to actually get together with the sex workers actually yeah so and actually was driven by sex workers to say okay here's what we can do to have your voice and your safety and your rights you know brought to the place where it needs to be which is really at the equal level where you have a space you have a voice and you speak on your own voice and in your own terms so it's a process of empowerment versus certain places like in Hawaii where you actually have outdated sex trafficking and sex workers you know organizations that call themselves experts but who are using methodology that is not proven to be effective shut down and silence anybody that disagrees with them and then they play the victim like well you don't want to listen to us as we debate prostitution you can talk about prostitution we talk about that but don't talk about us and our job earlier this month it was the San Francisco Police Department got together with the San Francisco Department on the status of women to have a workshop and talk about new policies prioritizing sex worker safety and saying that if you're a sex worker but you're a victim or a witness to a violent crime you won't be arrested that same week that that happened one of the people in the Hawaii State commission on the status of women supported lies about a sex trafficking you know victim doing a presentation here it's really strange the Hawaii State commission on the status of women is aligning themselves with this really crazy radical feminist agenda that doesn't acknowledge sex workers work doesn't even acknowledge the voices of the women's led movement around the world of sex workers asking you know fighting for our lives you know and our rights and so there this other you know radical feminists that Kanyela Ng's wife in the Hawaii State commission on the status of women they're saying that like sex workers can't even be included in the Me Too movement because our job is to be sexually harassed and so they're just empowering, silencing, ignoring like thousands of women you know or however many people of all genders trans people, intersex, men, women everybody in the sex trade is like how can you comment on the status of women if you ignore a population of them and so that's what our worry is right now is that they're on this crazy crusade and not even responding to the sex worker rights movement that is led by women you know and so there is a bridge to be made and I think that we want to work with everybody they won't work with us unless we say we're all victims and if we're not then we don't count I think at the global level the movement is very clear for the criminalization of sex workers to see them as workers the criminalization means take out the language in the laws that says it's illegal to charge or pay for sex rape, kidnapping, drugging, forcing that stuff stays legalization means somebody who's not in the trade is making up regulations of what we can do with our own bodies it doesn't work and it creates an underground economy this is legalized so you have to do it this way if you can't do it that way you're a criminal now and some people are homeless and hungry right now they can't wait and go fill out an application and get zoned and all these kind of things it's a survival tactic that a lot of people employ just to make it through life if you want to attack racism, transphobia all that kind of stuff do that but while those things still exist let us survive, let us make money the way we know how the best option for us that we have chosen for ourselves by our own judgment and so there's a lot there that we can continue to touch base on I can't believe our program came to an end so I would like to invite it to return next month so we can do a new episode and touch base on that so I think that there's a lot more to be talked in this dialogue that is just starting and I'm really excited to see sex workers getting together in Hawaii not being afraid like yourself nothing about us without us don't speak for us, speak to us, speak with us don't speak over for or against us partnerships have that multiple layer of equality and being able to talk and to be heard and that is what I hope that the setup of Hawaii will accomplish and until then be safe go get them pygrists and thank you so much for all that you're doing in our community and I'll see you soon keep on rockin' it and this concludes our episode of Perspectives on Global Justice for today thank you so much our viewers for watching us and see you next week Aloha