 I'm glad to welcome all of you to today's webinar on Building Effective Short-term Mission Experiences. I'm thrilled to have with me, and you will see us on the screen. Karen de Stefano and Milton Jovarez. I'll say a little bit about them as well. You'll also see just a blank name of Andy Lewis on there because he's actually hosting this here from the North Texas Conference Office. Andy directs the Center for Mission and Outreach for the North Texas Annual Conference as well as being the assistant to Bishop Michael McKee. Andy is also my direct supervisor in the work that I do here, so he has a personal interest in this, but he also is the tech control guy, but we're glad to have had Andy with us today in the background. We were to have a third participant in today's event, Evan Jones from Dallas First United Methodist, but a family emergency took him away. And he's just apologized for that and also requested prayers for him, his wife, especially and for their family as they navigate some health issues that have arisen. Karen de Stefano, who you see on the screen, is our South Central Jurisdictional Coordinator for VIM and Disaster Response. She's also a colleague of mine from years back in Oklahoma, where she worked in our Office of Mission and just a good friend and supporter in Mission over many, many years. We've been to various places around the world and around the United States, so it's good to connect with Karen in this way. Milton Juarez has a connection to the North Texas Conference, especially he is the UMVM coordinator for the Honduras Annual Conference and between North Texas and Honduras we share a bishop. Our bishop here in North Texas is also the Bishop of the Honduras Annual Conference. And so there's a very strong partnership and covenant relationship between our two conferences. But Milton doesn't just work with North Texas, he works with many other conferences in encouraging and supporting the work of UMVM across the nomination. So I want to welcome the two of them to joining this conversation. I am currently employed here in North Texas in a part-time capacity as the Disaster Response and UMVM coordinator for North Texas. And as many of you might know, I served for many years in a similar capacity, directing the Office of Mission for the Oklahoma Annual Conference for some 15 and a half years. So we're going to have a conversation, the three of us for the next 25, 30 minutes or so, and then we're going to open it up in the Q&A that you see on the bottom of your screen. If you want to contribute a question, feel free to go to that. The hosts and the panelists can see the questions. And when we get to that time, I'll pull it up on the screen and we'll continue the conversation. So, Karen, if you wouldn't mind starting us off just briefly, share something of your experience with what we're going to call today short term missions as opposed to VIM. We're going to use the generic term because it takes many shapes. And I don't want us to think VIM is just this or that, but we're talking about short term missions. So your experience of short term missions. Well, I have been quite a few places in the US and Latin America with short term missions. And I'll have to say that short term mission is response is is why I came back to the church. And so I had been away for a while after moving off to go to college and grad school and I was invited to go along on a mission to Guatemala as an interpreter and that experience brought me back and maybe not immediately, but it did eventually and so I'm a firm believer in these types of experiences. I know there's a lot to do still with this type of experience, but they are important. And so that one has always stuck in my mind and I eventually became a team leader, certified team leader in Oklahoma, and then went on on multiple journeys and each each one special in its own way. So experience has been good and I and I have been also enjoyed helping others to discover this type of experience. And this is what you're doing as the jurisdictional coordinate I know right now. Milton tell us about your experience with short term missions I'm sure there's going to be a lot of it where you've been in charge of receiving teams into your country but you tell us your story. Yes. First of all, thank you for having me here today. Yes, there's quite a lot of mission trips that have been hosting and also that have been part as staff, like interpreter, or just assisting, like, which was kind of like my first steps when I started doing mission. Of course I was in Honduras and then outside the country into other countries. So, but it's definitely a privilege and honor to be serving in my country, because I was actually outside serving as a coordinator for Guatemala and the Bahamas, and then came back to Honduras and into that role. So, it was quite a surprise and a blessing to be serving in a country that you all know has a lot of needs that we feel like we do a lot but then when we see the results like we need to feel like we need to do more. But that kind of keeps us encouraged and just motivated to keep doing what we're doing here. Great. Great. Thank you. In all that experience, Milton, is there one you can think of right now that was a highlight and why particularly it was a highlight experience for you? Yes. Well, of course I have lots of. Of course, sure there are lots, yes. Back when I was starting my mission journey, I was, first of all, I was 14 when I did my very first mission trip and I was part of the team that came to the community where I was living at the moment. I was asked for a translator, so my mom kind of like decided for me that I was going, even though I did not want to go, but it was not optional. And so I think like the very first trip that I did was life changing and it's kind of like what it was the seed that was planted for me to be here today. And I always go back to that day when I kind of like saw a different reality of the reality that I was living as a kid that maybe had a little more than the other kids in the country. And so when I was exposed to that, it was just like I opened it and it was just, I came back home and I just wanted to get rid of everything that I had like my clothing, my toys, my shoes, like everything because I've never seen like so many kids barefoot undressed. I mean, it was just hungry, saying like stories like they haven't eaten in days. Like all those things for me was just like, like I was just, I felt like I was in another country when I was in a traveler by then, but I wasn't sure that I was in my own country seeing those things. So that was kind of like the highlight back then. Okay, okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. Karen, same question to you. I, I'm going to switch that up a little bit and say, there's not this one particular experience, but one particular site. And that is a place in Albuquerque called Casa Esperanza and it's like a Ronald McDonald house but for cancer patients. And we, I took a team there over about nine years, we went nine times in eight years, I think. And I think for me, the highlight was the evolution of our, of our time there and where we went from just doing things like deep cleaning the to developing friendships and relationships with people there. And even though it wasn't always the same people the staff that work there became like our family and so that, that to me has always been kind of my ideal strive for. Now when planning mission is that type of, of connection with the people that we went to serve alongside with. Okay, yeah, great. Now I'm sure they've been along the way. I think that's one of the highlights of the other side of that coin, where mission experiences have been challenging or frustrating or not what we had to hope them to be trying to identify just maybe, you know, a key thought around that and help us understand why maybe it went off the rails or didn't quite achieve what we would have hoped for. Karen. Yes, I do have one that comes to mind. And I think the, the breakdown in what went wrong, there were, it was my first time to lead an international mission so I wasn't experienced. And looking back, I think what would have made all the difference was just more communication. With my team members and with the site host, or at least the VIM coordinator in the country. And every time that there has been any type of issue on another, another team at another place, it has always come back to lack of communication or not consistent or just not enough communication and relationship building, not necessarily with the site, but among our team members and preparing them for the journey. And so I think that would be, that would be where I've had the biggest challenge, and hopefully have learned a lot from it. Communication is something we'll speak about over and over again in the course of this I'm sure and that our viewers today will understand as being a key component. Milton, any thing you want to point to in terms of a challenging experience of mission or teams coming into you that you can identify. Probably a challenge now that I'm, I wanted to throw anyone under the bus, but We can be open with one another today. When I first got to when I was actually located in the Bahamas, I was like, of course it was my very first time in the Bahamas. I didn't know a lot of like, I mean, I kind of like knew what the umbin role is in general, but I didn't know like exactly what was my role in the country and with teams and interaction and all that. And the day that I arrived there, and I probably had like two meetings with the people that I was going to be working with. When I arrived there, there was no one like the director had left of the organization, like he, I don't know, resign or something. And there was just like one person that was that used to be a volunteer in the place. And so I was just like figuring things out. And I had a team that was coming in like five days after I arrived for the first time there so it was like very challenging. Lots of reading, like just read emails and on the computer, how things were done, who to contact for these are that. So the stress was really, really high, but at the same time, it, everything came out well. The team was very happy, the team that went on that trip. And so I feel like it was successful, but yes, on my side, it was extremely challenging. Yeah, I can understand that and I think what you're doing is underlining for us the importance of organization of logistics of proper preparation. And you know throwing you into that thing so close to that is unfortunately often part of both sides of the short term mission experience because of just the way things unravel will never properly. They don't come together. Never mind being undone is what I, you know, yeah, I've used the word unravel come to think about I've never used the word without the. Anyway, so, so with that in mind with the fact of the complexity, and some of the challenges of mission and the organizational stuff and, and all the rest of it. There's a very strong opinion across the United States and outside as well in the countries that a lot of our short term missions go to that says this really isn't working it's not, it's not helpful. It's it undermines the local peoples and their autonomy and authority. It's handout and not hand up. You know, it's colonialism in disguise imperialism again, and it just needs to stop. What do you say to those who think that short term mission should simply stop. I would say a big note to that because seeing it from my side that I receive teams and I kind of like held to connect or serve as a bridge within the team and the community or church or whatever. I think it's a good side on that they're not coming to work with. I see in most cases, happiness, growth, development, and I think it's just knowing how to do it, doing it right, because of course like, if it's not done right, you can create or cause some harm, but I think it's just knowing how to do it and it goes back to communication, knowing what it's going to be done, how it's going to be done, knowing the reality or at least learning of the reality where the team is going, how things are managed there. Respect the host opinion or whatever might not that the host always have the right opinion or anything but it's like I say it's crucial to have that healthy back and forth relationship, but definitely like I don't feel like it needs to stop because in countries like Honduras, for example, people gets really excited just by seeing someone coming to visit, not necessarily bringing gifts or anything, just the fact that that person came and was there and laughed and had a coffee or something with that person that just made that person's day or week. So whatever project or anything that it's given, it's an extra, it's a plus, but what really matters is the relationship, the bond that it's done between the community and the team that comes. Great. Thank you. Karen, how would you respond to those who say it's fatally flawed and needs to stop? Well, actually the first thought that came to my mind when you were saying asking that was you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sure. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Are there things that have been done in the past that were not good? Yes. That doesn't mean you just stop. It means that you work to make it better. I think the experiences like Milton has pointed out, like the ones that I've seen and experienced, those are too valuable and they're so needed today. The way that people, this opportunity for people to connect with other people. Never mind the task of building a wall. I don't like that phrase. Okay, building a house or doing a vacation, Bible school, whatever. That's not why we do short term mission and that's not why we should do short term mission. So, no, we need to find new ways that will empower people, will be more inclusive of all people from all walks of life, from all corners of the globe to be involved with each other in the experience. So, it's too important. And so, thank you. And what you're underlying is consistent with the theology of the United Methodist Church, particularly but also broadly of Christendom that puts us in relationship with, in connection with as part of this kingdom, this expanded family, we belong to one another. You know, we obviously in this as we head towards Christmas celebrate again the incarnation of God amongst us. And so that incarnational presence is underlies all of this. So, just to push it a little bit further, some would say to you Milton, we're not going to come and disrupt your country or your people or yours, you know, your your community, we're just going to send you some money. Would you take the money and not the people. You know, is that enough. It's not enough. I will say, we will take it, especially after COVID, like, yes, we had like really lack of resources. But yes, it's, it's, it's part of it. It's important. It's an important part, but it, it's not the main reason of why we do this or stuff, because, like I said it's it. It's the bond that it's, it's been created, not just on the host site, but also on the people that comes because it's making an impact both ways. Like we might see our side because of course we stay here but we don't know what changes or what impacts the whole mission. And that's doing on the volunteers that came also they, they're living their realities and the trip might help understand some struggles that they're going through issues, whatever. So, and I open her like it wasn't my case. So, and I would say, yes, we'll take the money but it's not the right the main reason of why we do this. Right, right. So let's focus for a few moments then on what is it that makes a good mission experience what what is it that allows this, you know, recruiting forming, preparing a team, coming to another country for a period of time and then going home about a home again a worthwhile experience what what are the fruits of of of these short term mission experiences that we should think about anticipate and plan for Karen you want to throw some ideas in. I think that the value of the short term mission and what makes it a good experience is when we help people. So I'm going to talk from a team leader or recruiter point of view is when we help people find their why and their passion and help them discover their gifts that God has given them. And allows this allows them an opportunity to see that firsthand and to feel this connection. And I think if we don't do that as our very first step in planning and recruiting that we're going to miss. A lot of opportunity to make this the most successful mission journey that we can. There are other factors as well organization I think you mentioned earlier and having good communication with your site host but if people don't understand why it is that they're going and what it will mean it's not a trip it's not a vacation. You know this is. I always liked your phrase Jeremy ball and vacationers and personating missioners. This is not why we're going some people just want to go on a trip and want to get another stamp in their passport. That is not what makes a good mission journey. It's discovering why and your passion and empowering people to make change, not only where they've been but also back home when they get when they return. So you're distinguishing, as I hear it between between the tasks that might happen. And the greater purpose of mission tasks are limited to while we're there and they might vary from mission to mission, but you're pointing to a larger purpose in really discipleship right in our own faith journeys on both sides. Right. That equation. Yes. Yes. And the task may not even exist when you get there, when you get off the plane or get out of the car might have changed while you were in route. Might have disappeared all together but it's it's why you're going and why we serve, and it's the people, and it's the one being one in the body of Christ, right. Milton what would you add to that in terms of what makes for real partnership and mission. I'll say, for example, the way that I see it and that I practice it as a host. It's also letting the spirit flow. Not that we won't have a program or that we won't have an itinerary for the week or a schedule, but not being so squared, like to get out of the box, what what presents along the way. I feel like most of the of the trips that we've done. When something presents or something gets on the way, and we see it instead of like getting frustrated or upset or, or something and we take it to God and say like why this is happening. I don't understand it but it's not a surprise to you. Then I feel like the biggest things that has happened to us in mission has occurred from from those obstacles that shows up on the way. And I can give you multiple examples but but yes. I mean in the medical area. Patients that showed up when we were probably like already the clinic was already down or stuff like that and that changed that person's life. And actually saved that person's life. If we if we weren't wouldn't be there. That person probably would have died or something like when you see those things is like, there's a reason of why this happened like why we had a flat tire or and stuff like that so it's the way we see things and how we take it. You're talking about flexibility you're talking about openness to the spirit leading in different directions. And you know the sort of simplistic but but I think a helpful statement of short term mission movement through the United Methodist Church is that there's three rules. Rule number one is be flexible rule number two be flexible and rule three, and they're all circumstances be flexible and I think you're doing is underlining the fact that as much as we plan as much as we care, God has a unique encounter for us there that we simply need to be open to. So, just because it's important to learn from, you know, bad experiences that is from good experience to reflect on everything. So if you identify specific things that maybe have created that blockage to to meaningful experiences of mission. What is it that makes it harder for a team to to succeed and you know Milton I can just take your statement and put it in the table and if you are not flexible things might not happen the way that you would like them to be on that are there other things either you might want to point to as unnecessarily creating blockages in mission. Milton. I'll say safety. For example, team safety. I think as a host, of course. We have to take care of teams as much as possible like I'll say like one of our top priorities. It's for the team to be safe. Not like over like protection or stuff like that. Of course, otherwise, the reality will be missed. But yes doing things with precaution. I do a lot of research, like what's going on in the community, health wise, before I go to a restaurant with a team like I make sure like how meals are prepared like all that kind of stuff because in the end like you if something happens which I mean we're it's we're exposed so things can happen. Or somebody fell we've had like those type of things so I feel like, for example, insurance is really important. Otherwise, it can be a nightmare in the country and I've had a few of those things happen like emergencies and stuff. And so that kind of like takes you away from what you really want to accomplish. So I think like safety, it's just listening to the host, for example, like what happened in Haiti, not too long ago, stuff like that, like that's something that I wouldn't even want to think that can happen here like it would be just a mess. So in safety, you know, in all aspects. And I think you've highlighted for us Milton, the issues where some of the most significant things go wrong is when that is when that respect for the leadership in country for our safety does not take place, where their insurance is not being thought through the cover the individuals in the event of both medical and and societal disruption where you know there needs to be an evacuation but that hasn't been thought of. And so that really underlines that Aaron what do you want to add. I would just reiterate the fact that lack of preparedness and lack or lack of open mindedness or going in with a set agenda or a fixed agenda in your mind anyway or stereotypes I think that has played some of the biggest or has led to these obstacles. People think things should be one way, and it's not, and they don't understand why it can't be or is a certain way. Milton pointed to like insurance. I mean all this, it goes into careful planning. So the team leader definitely needs to plan the team leader also needs to work with their team. And I think going forward, I haven't led a team for a while, mostly because of COVID and, and just some other things that had come up. Going forward, I would definitely work with my team. I know of a church in Oklahoma, Boston Avenue, United Methodist that they would have year long meetings with their team once a month for a year. And I can't imagine the difference that that makes for the overall success call it success but the overall mission experience. And I think that's just it all goes in in together with that planning insurance and going in with an open mind being flexible. Thank you. Let me just say to those who are participating at the moment if you have questions at this stage and you would like to. You can phrase it as a comment you can phrase it as a question. Please go to the Q&A. We can see those on our screen and I will facilitate the discussion with that for the for the rest of our time together, which should be about 25, 30 minutes is what we are planning to do depends on the length of those questions. But as you prepare to write those and make your comments or questions. Let me just continue the discussion with with Milton and Karen to say let's get back to let's first to get back to this relationship issue. I think you've underlined for us that mission is a mutual experience. In other words, it's not just for the people who go to do something and gain something. It's not just for them to give something so that the other side benefits in some material way, possibly. But there's something that's happening that you've been describing that enriches our understanding of our faith journey and makes deeper connections. So, how do we, how do we make sure we build time in and focus in for relationships to develop in the mission experience Milton. I will think or as at least from what I've seen it's just staying in conversation, staying in touch. For example, in my case, I've made my best friends over mission teams that I met people that I met like when I was 15 or so 16. And up to today we still talk, we visit each other with travel, and I mean we've gone through, of course, throughout those 20 plus years. Lots of things have happened and we've been there for each other and, and stuff like that so that kind of like happens also with teams and something that I've enjoyed. And it's like, seeing those solid healthy relationships of teams that say like, I've been coming for the last 15 years. And, and you see the progress you see how they started all the ups and downs they've gone through and they still decided to stay. And just continue building that relationship and, like everyone was saying in the beginning, when things don't go like as plan or goes wrong, don't just quit, like it just see how can we do it better. And just identify what happened and talk it through and continue the relationship. So, staying in touch. It's, it's a key. It's like solid long term relationships that develops through short term. So Milton, thank you for that I see the first question that has come is that given the importance of building relationships do you plan and recruit with an understanding that maybe it maybe or should be a multi year commitment, as opposed to what just a one off hit and run. So you're implying there. Yes and no, it's not like, if you come you have to come from the auto so the end of your days now, but it goes again to just let the spirit flow, like if the spirit tells you go again then. But just be open to that, like if, if, if you feel like going again, then, then just go and if not then something will, will you will be taking something I'm sure from that place back to to your daily routine and there, some see will be planned. Right, right Karen what do you want to add to that. Well, from firsthand experience. I would say that going multiple times to one location is. It's an incredible experience over time. Maybe we didn't start off thinking, oh, we're going to keep going back to Albuquerque. It just kind of worked out that way, and then after that it was like we don't want to go anywhere else we want to go here because we feel like we're going to visit our old friends. We feel like we're going to. You know, continue on their mission, and we just wanted to be a part of it so. But of course, you know, going to a new place gives you new experiences. You meet new people. So there is a trade off and, but they both have their, their. Positive sides, their positive aspects, but I tell you building going multiple times and building that relationship is. Just makes it takes mission, your mission journey to a whole nother level. Right. I want to just underline the point that a number of you folk who are on the call today are involved in covenant relationships with places as I identified at the beginning nor Texas conferences with your annual conference Milton so it might not be the same people every time, but there's a continuity and a trust from the people side in Honduras that, you know, North Texas is going to come back again it might not be exactly the same North Texans. But there's something that says there's a commitment here and a relationship that's going to be ongoing. So let me ask you to sort of build on that because, if it's a relationship it needs to be mutual. So, how do we get out of just this mindset that it's one group coming and doing something for another group and that's the level of what happens year by year by year or whenever a team comes how do we build that as a truly mutual shared relationship. Have you got any thoughts there. Well, I would say be in communication with the site. And asking, you know, what, what are their goals. What are, what are the gifts that they also bring to the table and working with them on that. I think that we should be working almost like assistance to the people at the site. We're just helping them accomplish their goals. We're not coming in to do it for them and and their goals could change and we, we should be flexible enough to work with them. But this, you know, this is a way to help empower not just our mission team members but the site. Not that we need to be the ones to do that but it's a way of everyone finding their power their gifts and what they, they themselves are able to do. Yeah. I'm asked Karen was speaking I was remembering an experience that we had one time with a team that came to build a well, kind of like a room like a classroom and the team had no like experience on construction or stuff like that. But they kept coming to build that. And then when he finally, well almost when he was almost done the whole thing just fell down like just went into pieces. And instead of like people like crying for for that thing that happened, everybody would just laugh. I mean it was like, because what what else do you do like, and so like the joy that you could like breathe or perceive. Even when it should have been a tragedy of what what happened but people just like laughed and like they were just I mean of course they hired someone that knew how to do it and and ended up doing the room but it's it just. It builds up like that those things in terms of relationship. Right, right. So, and also like identifying what the community, kind of like the context of the community. Yes, and what the local partner wants to achieve what are their purposes and how can we come in and join you on on that process instead of saying like well then you need to do this and do that and then you leave but then you leave the person or the host with a big trouble or a big problem that that pose is not going to know how to move forward with and then it just stays there and it's abandoned. And so that that in the long run that creates more harm than than good. So, it's just understanding that you're just walking with that person or that host or that community in the process. And Milton that sounds to me like there's the need to be very culturally sensitive to your context. Yes. Absolutely. What are some of the mistakes or blindnesses in this area that that you've encountered. Probably like I don't know if they are mistakes or what but starting from like, I don't know the I won't say generally but most of the hundred culture or people. It's very sensitive to certain topics or very close minded to other things and so when they see for example something that it's, it's not what they're used to see, then it might be taken the wrong, the wrong way. So, that's why it's also good to have like conversation about best practices within the community when we go out there, not that we're faking who we are, it's just we don't want to offend them or, or do something that it's out of place or, or taking the wrong way. Yeah, so it's, it's, for example, on the medical field. I've experienced for example a lot of females that are not too open to speak with a male doctor. So I try to like make it flexible and have like a female doctor for a female patient and stuff like that. Because otherwise, we're not doing things, or I feel like we're not doing the things the right way, if we're not really going to attend that person's issue, because she won't speak about it, or especially if it's something really intimate. Like she would rather just say like I'm here for a headache and be gone, instead of speaking about what really is going on and you want to help that person, but it's a matter of doing it right or finding that that way of doing it right. Aaron, you want to add anything. Yes, I, this is part of our team preparation and preparing our team members to what they will encounter if they've not ever been there before. And it's also highlights the, the, or reinforces the idea that we really need to be in communication with our site host. To find out these things that are important that they want us to know, and to make sure that we're fighting stereotypes and misconceptions before we go so that we don't have these embarrassing encounters, when we do go and, you know, oh, I didn't know they ate that for breakfast I don't want that I want you know pancakes and French toast or, or whatever and just make sure that everyone is aware of what, what they're going to be seeing and experiencing. Yeah. I remember a colleague of mine years ago, saying in a very different context but I want to apply it here is that what I wish for every missionary is a sense of curiosity. And I love that because it doesn't set answers it doesn't, you know it doesn't narrow the thing to this is the skill that you must know. It says, ask the questions just always be curious about why things are the way they are, and be open to asking because Milton, I never seen a situation where the hosts in your side of the things have never been willing to explain. Right. I mean you don't take questions the wrong way it's it's the assumptions correct. Right. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, that's why we're here I guess. Yeah, right, right. So I think that cultural context and stuff and just like as an example for example, things like that I try to tell or share with the teams. It's the, like, the meal for example it's going to be like, of course we asked like if there's allergies and simply that. And what the meals are going to be like or we're all eating the same thing, and stuff like that, and, and try to, like, grab what you're really going to eat. And then if you want more than go go again. But so we don't throw food to waste, because culturally, it's like, that's not taken the right way when when for example the cook see that you're throwing the way food or stuff like that. I mean, especially like in the reality that we live. It's like something that you don't want to, to send a wrong message, and you might not be doing it because you want to open it just into something that happens. The simple prayer on that one that one of our mission is in Oklahoma tortoise was where he leads me I will follow what he feeds me I will swallow. Aaron you wanted to add something. One thing that we can do ahead of time to to learn the cultural issues the sensitivities to get to know each other is something that we came up with during the pandemic was to do a virtual mission experience. As, as the pandemic has evolved and we now, you know, teams are starting to travel again and everything is not have to be 100% virtual anymore. We still see the virtual mission and that type of encounter as an important tool in preparing teams to go. And this way they can start to. This the site can can make their presentation to let us see what what we'll be experiencing. It's also a way to get to know people and to start to build those relationships before we even go. So that that's one thing that we can do. And I was on a virtual mission with Milton and learn a lot about the culture of Honduras and what the sites were like and really appreciated that and yeah I feel like I've kind of almost been there already. Yes, yes. And you know just to highlight this what you're saying which I like from both of you is the internet has given us creative ways to build relationship and continue mission, both prior to the actual mission event. We're doing it in terms of contact back home, maybe being, you know, skyped into Sunday morning service while you're away with your home church. And then afterwards to stay in contact and to keep those relationships flowing without, you know, actually physically being there so all of that is is incredibly helpful thank you. And Vincent asked a question a little while ago and I didn't want to interrupt the flow to get to it but when we talk about the long term relationship, he raises the point that sometimes repeat missions become the mission themselves of those people. And, you know, they don't let other people in or, you know, becomes a closed group so he's asking us to think about how do you prevent that from happening. I have had that experience and I wish I had a really great answer to give, but I do recognize that it's a problem. I think I've in our case when we arrived at the, at the location at our mission site. We just jumped in and started doing the, the tasks or the jobs that they had always done every time we went I think just shaking that up a bit and saying, Oh, I'd like you to maybe work over here or whatever this is where the team leader can come in and and really help out. But yes, there, there is that danger of, of it becoming kind of a closed group and we have to work against or we have to, to work with that issue, all the time, even if it were a beginning group and it's the first time they'd been together and first time they'd been to a place. They still form groups with them themselves so we just have to work on on that team dynamic and making sure everyone recognizes everyone else's gifts and talents and what they have to offer. Absolutely. I agree with that and I think one of the ways that we can either, well not maybe prevent or break that cycle. It's, I mean, shaking things a little bit. Of course, you always have the pros and cons and how that's going to turn. But also putting it in a scene and then from all type of perspective, if the situation it's been helpful, or if it's been effective, as it's been done. If it's not then just speak it out with the team, team leader and, and the community and bring that's one of the things that for example that I tried to, to do it's involve the, the local host because I might be the host for the whole dynamic of the mission trip. But of course the community also has a host, or the church where we go has a host or, and all those things so I tried to bring them in and shared their experiences or feedback how the week is going. If you have anything to add. And so that gives a little bit of openness of things to prevent to get to that point. But in, like, again, it's because I have like for example the medical teams. Normally they, they come and they know what they're going to be doing. They know how to prescribe where they're going to be located at. They already have the setup as it's been for the last 12 years, 15 years. And so like things like that, for example, like I don't see any harm, but if it's, if it's causing some level of harm then I think it's speaking with with all of the people involved. Or if there is a leadership team and explain the situation in with politeness and just a friendly conversation and I think that that's really helpful. And I think from what both of you said it leads us back does it not to the purpose of mission the purpose of mission is not to give eight or 10 or 12 people to go on a team and experience of mission. It's a call for that congregation or congregations that are involved to broaden their experience and understanding of God at work in the world, outside of their local community and connecting us with the global family. So that intentionality of recruiting and inviting and seeing beyond just your own efforts and your own task is what I think you're underlying there, and the lining there as an important facet for us. I have one more question here that I see on the screen about somebody who wants quote unquote to go on mission, but does not want to participate in the training sessions for mission. How would you handle that Karen. I might have to have a one on one chat with with the person to find out why it is that they don't want to be included in the in the team trainings. The team training or the team meetings are not, you know, I've been to somewhere it's just we're going to fill out these forms and we'll say a prayer and we'll go home, and we'll see at the airport. But there, there's so much more that goes into this. We just have to have a conversation with this person to find out what what it is that is, you know, makes them not want to be a part of this. Anything you want to add there. Normally, with our teams like as a host I don't go through every single training that they, they have, but recently we had an experience with someone that did not. Like, she wasn't part of the, the, the team meetings that we had and all that probably just one. I think she attended and but in like for example her husband was also I found like probably like a week before the team came that her husband was also on the team and I was like, I haven't seen him on on trainings oh he's been, and I was like, oh my goodness, that sounds like trouble. So, I had to just call it out and say like, I'm sorry, like, it's, it's not going to work out because it's, it's, it puts a lot of stress on our side to be dealing with. It's kind of like having two scenarios to different activities going on because the other person doesn't want to like pitch in or be included on that wants to do another thing. So it's like, because they don't really understand the activities, or they, they don't have that clear perspective what they're coming to do. You end up with having like two teams. So that's, I will say that's up to the house if they want to go through that, but I would say from my point of view, how that was no, like I was like sorry but I can't. Yeah, you can always say to someone, you know, I'm sorry if you're not going to participate maybe this isn't the right mission opportunity for you. I hear you saying Milton especially is the impact of a person who has not gone through that journey of preparation on the team itself and on the host, the host church or community that receives them is, there's a dissonance that creates the negative experience of mission for everyone. And so it's a case of one person, possibly undermining the effectiveness of everything. So, and Karen, I think your point is well taken that, you know, after that discussion after that trying to get them to see the bigger picture. You as the team leader, or whoever that might be has the authority to say, you know, I guess, maybe you're just not going to. You know, this isn't going to work with you being on our team and need to say that to protect the experience for everyone. To me, if I might add, I think the, the biggest picture of all of this is if we want to move away from mission as a time limited experience, as opposed to mission as a lifestyle, and part of my ongoing relationship, we can't afford to keep focused on people who will only see it as an event that they want to participate in and then throw a line under. And everything the two of you have been saying builds on this picture of mission as ongoing part of my life, whether I'm in Honduras or anywhere else in the world or back home in my own community. I'm a Christian who's about God's mission. And I think that's a wonderful point to underline folk I don't see any more questions that are that are popping up, and we're about to wrap this up so if you want to get in a question. In the final one, please do that very quickly. But what I'm going to do is then in the absence of that or until I see one is just focus on Karen and Milton again and ask them. If there's something you haven't shared if there's something you want to still say, if there's a point you want to underline I invite you to do that now as a sort of closing comment. Karen will start with you. We've talked a lot about what we do before and during the mission after the mission is just as important because it doesn't end just because you go home. You could take that mission experience and that excitement and that passion that a lot of your team members and you as the team leader, I'm assuming we're all kind of talking with team leaders here that maybe maybe some team members. How do you take that and and and translate it into a local experience. How do you continue your mission so that the mission journey that you just went on is not the highlight of your, your congregations mission and outreach program. It's just a part of it. And maybe you were working with the medical team in Honduras and you go home and how do you continue that in your community and keep that excitement and that passion alive and so maybe you volunteer at a medical clinic in your community or you work with Honduran immigrants. Somehow maybe you do ESL classes or something, but don't let that experience just stop. Let it continue and grow and that will just add to everyone's experience. And it will help you recruit future team members and we'll just add an extra dimension to your mission. Thank you. Yeah, I will just add, or mostly like encourage teams or volunteers to continue to engage whether they already have a placement site in whatever country they go and learn every time they can, because there's always new things that you can learn. We've talked about teams that go there for quite a while. But even if if you've been there for like 10 years or whatever you, you will feel like there's always something new that you learn after your, your trip. So, just always go with a good attitude and attitude of learning, serving, and just have a great time and just take the, the opportunity that it's being presented because it's, it can be a life changing experience and I say it from a personal perspective. Because just to share a little bit more. When I was younger, I thought that at this age I was going to be doing something different. And here I am in doing mission, and I'm loving it. I love every day that I work and with the teams and the communities and, and everybody that I come across with and would try to do the best we can to do it out of love out of passion compassion and share God's love and just keep that spirit up in that that flame on fire for permission. Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you, Milton, and thank you Karen for your participation today and thank you everybody who who joined us for this discussion. I'm thrilled to see that there are jurisdictional coordinators on this call because those are the people in each jurisdiction that you can turn to for guidance and help in preparing for mission. I'm glad that there's something like David McCormack is on as well because he represents those others in each jurisdiction are there to motivate mission. And he's a resource person who can come to your area your church to help you and be encouraged and and understand the possibilities that both short term missions covenant relationships and service as missionaries. So at all different levels can be for the enrichment of people's faith journeys as well as for a church's enrichment in in connecting itself in mission in an effective way so I appreciate all of you being present today. My thanks to Aaron and Milton for their work in preparing for this time and offering their ideas and thoughts and experience that's enriched us and thank you all for joining us today. And I would love the opportunity to just send us forth in prayer. So let's pray together. Thank you Lord for each person represented on this call each church each conference each jurisdiction and the own personal journeys and pray that you would continue to broaden us in our understanding of your mission in this world, and the best way that we can participate in it. And to encourage us each day to continue and being faithful to that mission as you are to us, and particularly today we pray for Milton, and others in a position like his that receive missionaries from other places, and the complexities of that in the midst of keep them encouraged strengthen them in their work and bless all of us in this work with a deeper sensitivity curiosity open mindedness and willingness just to let your spirit take us and lead us in participating with you in this mission to restore the world to the shape in that you made it, and for which you long to see it again. May your heart for your mission and your people be our to we pray in the name of Jesus. Amen. Amen. God bless you all going. God strengthen grace and want to hear the stories again. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Karen. Good to see you, Milton.