 Hi Jenny, I see you have your hand raised. You can unmute yourself. Hi Jenny, are you there? Yes, I am. Oh, great. I don't see myself on here. Is that. Yeah. When, when the hearing starts, we'll promote you to a panelist like the other commission members. And then you'll be visible. Jenny, I just want to clarify that. At the last meeting. You were available for the entire discussion. I wasn't there. I wasn't there. My husband was. Your husband was there for the entire portion of. That was devoted to his property. The letter he wrote suggested that he didn't think he had been. And I just didn't want him to think that that, that that was true. Okay. Well, he. I don't know. You were talking about. I don't know is because at the beginning of the meeting, you said, no one had bothered to show up, but he was there. I don't know. I don't know either something wasn't working. Or I don't know what happened because I wasn't there. I also. Ward welcome is having a lot of trouble. He does not have access to zoom and he's been trying to call in. I. And he just wrote me a message saying. I'm not getting any of them, any of them phone numbers. So. I don't know what to tell him to do. I suppose I could call him and just. Put him. Next to me. Yeah, I'm speaker phone. I don't know why he's having such trouble. He also said. Is it getting. Very cool. We simply want to ask him whether it's reasonable to expect that we can have the. Spacing of the ballast is in reduced. Yeah, I think it's three o'clock, but let's just wait and see if one member joins and then we can officially start the hearings. Okay. I'm going to meet you, Jenny, and then we'll bring you on over as a panelist. I don't. I don't, Steve may not be with us. I don't see Nicole either. So it's 301 maybe in one minute. Nancy, we could start. Okay. Steve is in Spain. I think at the moment. Right. Yeah. I don't think he was going to be here yet. Frieda's in Southeast Asia. So it's just Nicole who could be here. Yeah, we have a quorum right now. I guess we can just wait one more minute. Okay. And I was actually going to try maybe calling in, but it'll be funny on my phone and. Are you ready to begin? Yeah. So I was going to try just dialing in on my phone to see if it's really problematic. Okay. But yeah, I think you could start. I don't see any. I don't have any emails from Nicole and we can note when she arrives. I'll just start with the introduction to the meeting. So I'm just welcoming you all to this hearing via zoom of the local historic district commission. We seek to aid property owners in the town and preserving and protecting the distinctive characteristics and architecture buildings and places. Significant in the history of Amherst. A hyper look to this hearing will be posted on the town's online calendar. So that members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone or by that hyperlink. Today's hearing is being. Sorry. We require one of three certificates to ensure that new construction and most alterations of exterior architectural features in the district meet requirements. And today's hearing is being held to review two applications. We'll start, I believe with the continuation of the property on fearing. And Nate, do you want to begin talking about that? Yeah, Jenny. Yeah, you'll be rejoining as a panelist. Yes. I think I'm up here. I don't know if. You can see me or not, but. Not yet. Can you. Start your video. There you are. Okay. Now we can see you. I have a board on my phone on speaker phone. Because he said he wasn't able to call in. Okay. Thank you for coming to this meeting. At the last meeting, we talked about the. Distance between the vertical. And the vertical. Pieces on the. And I believe you're going to, here's, here comes Nicole. I believe you were looking into whether it would be possible to have those more closely spaced together so that they would more closely match what's down below. And so we wanted to hear more about what you discovered. You and Ward had discovered. So war, do you want to speak to that? Yeah. We sent some. We sent a proposal to add an extra one in between. And see if you would agree to that. Just adding, you know, it'll be an inch and a half instead of one inch, but it would be close, closer match what's there. And, you know, It won't block to view as much as doing one inch anyway, but it would cost a lot more money than it would cost. And I believe you're going to see. It won't block to view as much as doing one inch anyway, but it would cost a lot more money than the proposal that we had sent in if we didn't want to just add one in between. So an inch and a half sounds like a good compromise to me. But our other members of the commission have thoughts. Are there. The visuals to support this. I'll share my screen. And let's just do that. Here's, here's what it looks like now. Is that visible for everyone? Yes. So this is what it looks like with. As it was rebuilt and here is right. Here's the. What it had looked like. You know, so. I'm assuming a. The existing is maybe a one one inch spacing and a one and a half inch would be just splitting this difference, right? So you'd put one in between every one. Exactly. Yes. Okay. Now I can understand that. And the, the, the ballast is on the second floor. The new ones are they, are they square? Are they rectangular section or are they round? They're square. They're square. Okay. Well, I agree with Nancy. I think that that would be a, a good way of resolving our concern and without being unreasonably. Hopefully unreasonably expensive. Well, it is expensive. I won't say that. But depends on what you think is expensive. But over $3,000. Which seems like a lot to me. Okay. So I agree kind of with Ward. I do think that. I mean, I think we could approve it as is in my opinion. I think I understand that this is a kind of a decorative thing. And that if it's too close together, you feel boxed in. I know how hard it is to maintain these wooden things. I've just put in a lot of money to try to. Keep it as it is. I mean, I don't think it's that big. A jarring. Intrusion on the neighborhood to keep it as it is. So I for one. Feel it's okay to accept it. As it is. I was going to say it's, I mean, I lost my track. Yeah, I can't remember a lot. It will come back to me. Hopefully. And I honestly don't think it is that big a jarring. Intrusion on the neighborhood to keep it as it is. I can't remember a lot. It will come back to me. Hopefully. Sorry. Elizabeth, did you want to say something? Yeah, I wanted to ask. So the one that exists now on the first floor, that's one inch. I just want to get the measurements right. You don't want to add something in and end up with it too tight or something. So currently as it is, there's one inch between the balusters. Yes. Okay. So there's one inch. And then you're proposed for the new balustrade is. Three inches or two inches. Well, well, they come the way they come standard from when you order them is four inches in between. And they're square. So it's one inch. So if there's four inches in between and you take an inch away from the thickness of the, you know, baluster, then you end up with an inch or three inches. And then you divide that in half. It's an inch and a half. It'll be in between the space. And so it happens from down below. Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought. Thank you. Yeah. I think I know when I first saw the picture, my, I went right to the fact that, that it wasn't the same as down below. I mean it approximates the balustrade, but it just, it just didn't look, doesn't look right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering if Jenny, I just kind of heard it as. Kind of a side comment. So. By re redoing these balusters, it's going to be $3,000. At least yes. Yeah. I'm probably 3,200 or three, something like that. We sent a proposal and to me. Yeah. It was included in the packet with the estimate and. Yeah. So I mean, I guess. I would put it out there that. The current balusters. Are not exactly as they were before, but I mean, they are still attractive. And I don't think. It's in the aim of this committee to be putting additional kind of financial. Implications on sellers when they already are trying to improve the property. You know, I mean, 3,000 hopefully does come in at 3,200 is still $3,200. So, you know, I mean, that's kind of. I'm just not sure it's worth them redoing what has been done. I think part of the problem is that it wasn't come. Brought to us at the beginning. Before they were actually put in. Yeah, I've never done soon before. So, and it was hard. I know people that go on zoom all the time with the Amherst. Other departments and it's always a travesty with them. Yeah. And even Edward. Jen's wife tried the first time and. He was there and nobody could see him or nobody. Yeah, I see or hear him. And he was way, you know, a whole bunch of the time he was waving his arms. I think word they're talking about. When you've got the broke building permit. Yeah. Well, I've never done with my first. Either. Yeah, the first, that was my first one that I never got a second. When I was in the company. I was in the company. And so they were getting paper. Termits. And so I didn't get, you know, I apparently that I don't have the right email with you guys or the building department. I didn't get. Wasn't it? I didn't know that. Open meant. That it wasn't. Active. Yeah, active, and so I didn't mean. And it was really dangerous up there. So. blocked off so nobody could get out there, but I just felt and I thought it was okay, you know, to go through and I'm sorry and I apologize for that. Next time I know. I'm influenced by Karen's statement. I think it would improve the appearance to add the additional balances. And I also think it's unfortunate that this process, you know, it was frustrated by, as we've said before, that the applicants didn't seem to understand they needed to come to us. And so one can feel, well, you know, we really want to make a point that people have to pay attention to these things. On the other hand, 3,500 or so is a fair amount of money. And do we think that this is the best way? Do we think that's necessary? And I'm totally on the fence on this, but I think I could be persuaded to join Nicole and Karen on this one and accept what we have, recognizing that we've made a point and under the circumstances of the history of this project and what they've been trying to do and so forth. So Nancy and Elizabeth, I don't know, I may be a swing voter here, I'm not sure. So why don't you tell me what you think and see. Because I don't think we've ever, well, we haven't had a decision on this commission in the seven or eight years that I've been on here where there was a tied vote with a swing voter. But let's see where we are. I think I can be persuaded, as I said, by Karen and Nicole. Elizabeth, I want to ask the question of Nate about what happened and if that process is fixed now. Yeah, I mean, I think so. We have an online permitting software for local historic district and for a building permit. So a building permit was applied for online and it was never granted. So I think some of it is, you know, having better communication between the town and an applicant and, you know, an active status does not mean it's granted. So typically you need a building permit. And so I know there had been some communication with the building inspector and ward. And so, you know, what triggers our review is the submittal of a building permit application. And then this was, you know, an application was submitted for this. And it, you know, there was back and forth about what information was needed and it was just never provided. And so it just remains active. You know, we, you know, ideally what would happen is after two weeks, we just, we cancel it, but the work could still get done. Right. So I think what happens is that a contractor, sometimes people will go ahead and they think, oh, it's active, or I haven't heard from the town, I'm just going to go ahead and do the work. And they never receive the permit. So I mean, I, you know, it's, whether or not it's paper or on computer, it happens. You know, it happens probably pretty frequently, actually. So you're saying the reason they went ahead is because of an error on the part of the town? No, I actually think the applicant was not responsive. Just went ahead. Yeah. Okay. I think that, could I speak? I think the error, we weren't, we weren't in Amherst when this project started because we were out of the country in June, but we knew it needed to be addressed. And we knew that Ward had applied for a permit and Ward kept saying, I haven't gotten the permit. Can you check online? So it's partly my fault because I went online. I've never applied for a permit and it said active. So I told Ward it was active. But so I just thought that that meant, yes, that it had been approved. So that was my fault. I didn't know what active meant other than, yes, I see it up there. I see that you've applied. I know that he's talked to the building contractor more than once, but it wasn't until quite late in the summer when he found out and told us that we needed an additional review by the Historic Commission. So yes, that's on us, although when it's, the project started, we weren't even in town. And I knew that we had to start it because it was really unsafe. And we do have a sidewalk down below. And we have a renter up there as well. So, yes, that's what happened. Right. I mean, but right as it stands though, the building permit still hasn't been issued. And so, so, you know, the inspector had been asking about, you know, like a structural pieces, like what's the framing size? What's the dimensions? What's the span? And so, you know, All right. I mean, all I'm seeing is that the building inspector approval is still in progress right now in our system. And the last correspondence was from July. One thing I know is if I've been able to talk to somebody because I've tried calling a native, you are at least half a dozen or more times. And, you know, I'm not tech-savvy in the computer department and I don't even have a computer set up to zoom. And so it's just been really hard. And one phone call, I could have, you know, taken care of this a long time ago. If the building department did it the same way you guys did, the building department would be having a lot of problems because you've got to at least be able to talk to somebody once. So I'm not just emails. And that's why it was hard for me. And I apologize. Right. So typically, the building inspector, like I said, we're triggered. Our permit application is triggered when a building permit is applied for. And so the building inspector said, oh, it's not moving forward because I'm not getting the information. And so, you know, I'd occasionally drive by certain application sites to see what happens. And so I drove by one day and said, oh, wow, they actually went ahead and put up the railings. But as far as I knew, it was still an active permit and it wasn't progressing because we weren't, the town wasn't receiving new information. And so. You went up and knocked on the door and said, what's going on? Oh, no one was there. This was like on my way to work. I was, you know, it was just, I saw that, oh, the railings were up. And so I wasn't, you know, like I said, there's a few of these that happened. And so it's just a matter of, you know, chasing it down. I don't, you know, I, so I think, you know, that's where kind of it happened. I don't, typically we'll, like I said, we, you know, we'll send emails or follow up and make sure. But you know, like I said, there's probably a number of them where people don't get back to you for whatever reason. And it's hard to have that communication. And so there's a few here that, you know, in the local historic district, and, you know, we have a few other properties where it's a matter of just keep, keeping to try to track it down. I guess my only question would be what's the, my only question would be what was the cost of the project and is $3,000 a, you know, for the commission, it could be that they, you deem it a financial hardship or you find that the baluster spacing is consistent with, you know, what's, you know, is consistent and compatible with the building. And so as a financial hardship, usually I, you know, I'd want to know, like, okay, what's the, what was the project cost and is this a, you know, a significant amount, you know, proportionately to what it was? Yeah, I don't actually apologize. I'm at a job site. I don't have the paperwork in front of me. I don't know. It was over $8,000. It was just for the material. 20, you know, you know, I can't remember. I've done some of the jobs since then that it was in, I hate to say, but it's in the $20,000. I can't remember right now. Like I say, I've just did two decks since then. So anyway, we can find it, but the original deck that was built, the cost, the wooden one cost them $76,000. That was both the upper and the lower. Yeah. 35, you know, over 35,000 for the upper one. And so they were like, you know, just didn't want to go that route again with the composite instead. Yeah. I mean, if it was say 20,000 or more, it's a 10 or 15% increase with the additional to get, you know, just a quick rough estimate. Yeah. I wish I could remember that number of times, but I guess it was a lot of numbers all the time. I wish I could know if it would really look better. I don't, you know, or when you're adding things to something that's already pre-made, I don't know. Ward assures me it could be done. I worry about the structural integrity of what's there because it's all one piece. So I think of it as kind of an experiment. Will it look better? I hope so. You know, we could, it's not that we couldn't afford it. I can, we can, you know, I don't think we could do it now because it's getting to be winter and we're not there until next spring. So anyway, that's my two cents. I clearly would prefer not to have to put those spindles in, but we will put them in if you, if the committee deems that that's necessary. Personally, I think it would look a lot better. Elizabeth, I'd like to hear what your thoughts are. No, no, you go ahead first. I was just gonna say, you know, I do think it would look a lot better. I think the spacing looks odd to me at the moment and it looks cheap to me at the moment, but I think in the sense that it looks like it was just a slap-dash job. It would look perfect when it was done, if I did it. But I understand concerns about asking for a 10 or 15% increase in the cost of the project. If you had come to us initially, though, would we have said, and given us a choice, I think it's pretty clear that we would have said we want those spaced closer together. And so I'm a little hesitant to say, well, since you bypass the process, whether intentionally or not, that you don't have to do it now. So that's where I'm kind of feeling not sure what to do. I'd like to hear what you have to say, Elizabeth. I was just, I think Jenny made a good point that you don't know, that's sort of like to see a drawing to see what the one and a half is going to look like. Is that going to make a substantial difference? The next question I have is, the balusters on the porch itself, will those be replaced at some point soon, need to be replaced? And in which case, are you going to propose that those be the off-the-shelf ones like you got for the right here? Do you mean are the, I'm confused, the lower ones are not in any danger of being needed replacement because they're covered and it's, we've never had a problem with those, with the downstairs because it's covered, it's not open to you know, all the elements as to what the upper deck is. And then just to, just to ask, I think it was last time, there's, there'll be trim that will be put up here. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That was for the building inspector to take a bit before I covered it up. I do see your concerns about, because it's so much higher than the downstairs one. It had to be why you're concerned about the view from the upstairs floor. It had to be, it is the same height as the other one, as the last one. The old one. The old one was exactly the same height because that was the code. Yeah. What happened with the first time they did it, it was, it was okay at 36 inches and they, then they decided that it needed to be up to 42 and because it's a multifamily back in the early 2000s and what they ended up having to do is add that horizontal board, which made it look like really awful. And that was just the quickest and easiest way to bring up the 42 inches. And so we just made our, you know, we went with the 42 right off the bat and, you know, you have to order special spindles, balusters that make that happen. And so that's where we went with the 42 up there. Because that's code. Yeah, exactly. And it's not, the bottom one doesn't have to be that tall because it's not, it's not that one. I do appreciate that you're taking care of this house and in that part of the neighborhood that's important and not everyone does take care of their houses. So we agree. Karin. So there's such a difference between this elegant wooden, you know, railing at the bottom and the top, which is the composite, that plastic, I don't know, that's part of it. So I think there's just going to be that difference. And whether you have that plastic with the spindles closer together, if that's going to improve it a lot, it might be, but I guess maybe... You will never reply. We would take the deck down before we put wood up again. Yeah. And I understand that. I understand that because I just replaced everything with wood. And I think I'll never do that again either. Because, you know, every few years there you have again, spending a lot of money for painting and scraping. And I understand. And it's up there where safety and other things are a big issue. And the house itself has siding. It's not even a wooden front facing house. So... Right, right, right, right. I think there are probably maybe differences in grades of these composites. There's high end and then the low... We have the high end one. That's the high end. Okay. It looks great. Everybody loves it. They watch mine. I think when it's finished and the house is landscaped, I think it'll be lovely. Yeah. And it's not bad. But that's, I think, a practical solution to a problem. Harpers? I've shifted more solidly to Karen and Nicole in the... Listening to the past 20 minutes or so. And here's why. That upper balustrade now is driven by a modern thing called the building code. And it's higher than it would have been. And also, from a point of view of just a practicality or maybe comfort. But sitting on a porch when you've got a balustrade like that is forcibly as high as that because of the concerns that the code has that people will topple over. I think I would want to keep the balusters the way they are. And I think I would feel this way if it had come before us at the beginning. So now I'm pretty comfortable in saying I'm happy to vote for a certificate of appropriateness based on the current scheme. Because I think when you're using that balcony up there and you sit down on it, if we put those extra spindles in, you're going to be walled in. It's going to be a fairly disagreeable place to sit. And because of the current codes and everything which are non-historical, this balustrade is not a vestige of whatever was there historically because it's been driven by a modern requirement. So I think we should acknowledge that and acknowledge that just because in pursuit of some historical accuracy on balustrade's bracings, we shouldn't then allow the fact that the code is then lifting this up to a rather uncomfortable height from the point of view of someone sitting that we should create. We should use this, our pals on this commission to create a disagreeable space for someone to sit. It's not really a historic element anymore. And I think we should give up trying to make it that way and I think we should accept what we see before us. I think that was a very helpful statement. I'm ready to join you in your vote. Elizabeth, are you feeling more comfortable with this? Yeah, I think what's I'm thinking is that this is maybe the first one in this neighborhood and don't you know there's going to be more and most people are going to want to go toward the composite simply because of expense and then there's the issue that of code and everything else. It's sort of like you might as well go with it now because it's going to become a thing and I think we're going to have to as modern people have to accept it so I would vote to allow them to do it. Well said. Are we ready to take a vote then on a certificate of appropriateness as is? Sorry just to interact quickly as a public hearing we could ask if there's any public comment. From us I believe. I don't see any hand just hands raised. And I guess we vote to the vote includes a vote to close the public hearing. Is that correct? Right. Yeah. Do I have a motion? A second. Oh I'll so moved. We vote to grant a certificate of appropriateness for the property blah blah blah as currently constructed and intended to be completed and about to close the public hearing. Karen. I second. Is there any further discussion before we take a vote? Okay Bruce. Hi. Karen. Hi. Elizabeth. Hi. Nicole. Hi. And I agree also so we are then granting that certificate and thank you very much Jenny and Ward for coming to this meeting. Thank you very much for understanding. And thank you and make sure this won't happen again. I apologize. Thanks. Thanks. We understand that the modern age is hard for people. Thank you. Yeah thank you. So we have one other property that's come up and that's the property on North Prospect. Nate do you want to bring anyone from there? Yeah if you want to raise your hand if you're here to represent the project we'll promote you to panelists. Hello. Thank you for coming. Thank you for the promotion. I am Jackson Powers with Valley Fence. This is John Horton with Valley Fence. Welcome to our commission meeting. Would you like to speak to this project? Yeah so we're back here I think actually we were here recently with their other renovations but here we are hopefully wrapping this up. This is a fence project. The proposal is for cedar fence in the front of the street view which is five feet high of cedar fence and then the top is another foot of a spindle topper and then as it turns the corner to the property line to the neighbor's house it changes has two panels again of that cedar and then changes to an ornamental metal fence. So I have that plan on CAD which I can show you kind of like where we propose this and then I have some images of what that fence looks like that we've recently installed. You can show your screen if you if you can. Sure. Yeah let me know if that works. And it did not let me. Can you try now? There we go. All right great. So here is the property. So the PL is property line and the SPL here is the setback line. So this is the house. Some of this is a little left over from the project that we work back here so we might see a little redundancy here. But the red line here is where we're proposing the fence. It starts at the corner of this house not this is their porch and so it starts at the corner of the house and goes all the way down to the property line and then is two panels of that cedar and then again the ornamental metal fence where it meets an existing fence in the backyard. And that fence looks like this so it is five feet of tongue and groove cedar panels and then it has a spindle topper that goes on top of these posts with the pyramid caps. Here's another picture. I'm sorry. Quick question. Were the posts in the other image are the posts always pressure treated or are they the other ones look like they were um yeah there are some so these are cedar posts right and that's what we're planning on installing right yeah some of them are you know different projects we'll have pressure treated posts those are all cedar posted to available materials for this type of fence are there comments from uh commission members and questions there's there's the metal fence too on the side right the yeah so then it'll transition to this which faces um their neighbor's house um and there's a little bit of land between the house and this sorry how high is that fence I guess I forgot what the dimensions are four feet four feet yeah can you go back a second to oh sorry the wooden fence is five feet you said so it is five feet um from the from the bottom rail here to the top of the solid and then it's another foot so the total is six feet um they get a lot of headlight traffic on that road especially when you come out of CVS um so they're trying to create some privacy back there yeah and there's a lot of parking there and it's set pretty far back from you know as we looked at here so this is you know I think it's 15 feet to the front of the house to that street so even further you know over 20 feet from that from that on the street Elizabeth oh I just had a question of so from north prospect street the fence is not in front of the house it's on the side of the house correct extending out further and then show me where the metal fence begins just point your pointer here I can show you this in 3d branded the okay the um they're not a great representation of what it looks like other than like where it starts and ends um and the last panel will be a go from six to four so this will sweep there'll be a straight straight down line as a transition panel what about at the other corner I'm sorry at the other corner is it going to it's a right angle of the junction not a straight junction but there's the last panel of the wood going to sweep down there as well not there uh no no no not there where the junction between the four and the the low and the high is oh that's where it will yes yes but there's another junction there over here in the corner yes no so this um this is an existing fence in the back it's actually more like a okay a fence um and okay it's also four foot high okay thank you that's good yep there is a gate that um it would be here okay that matches yeah and what's the reason for the metal fence being lower and different friendliness aesthetics yeah aesthetics um probably you know I'm not going to speak for uh Ronnie and Patrick but um I mean the wood is certainly more expensive as well um you know there's there's less privacy needed maybe on that side you're looking at the side of a house versus you know students and you know public walking by I could jump in and just can you hear me yes uh yeah it's uh we've also had a little bit of an issue of um um unwanted uh uh plants kind of growing into our yard from the other side um so it's it's sort of a good fences make good neighbors sort of thing plus it's aesthetic um you know but it's because it's low and it's not uh it doesn't really cut off the view from the side it's just it's not it's not so much meant to be a privacy fence it's just a way of demarcating the you know our property from theirs and making sure we can control the various things like poison sumac and whatnot that have been growing on the property line I mean we have a great relationship with our neighbors but they're also moving so um uh at any event it's uh that's all it is are there questions from other commission members could I also add could I also add that we have a um as uh jack said um a front yard that extends some 20 feet from the fence to the property line um and that extends all the way across the front of the house and there's actually a small side yard on the north none of that is fenced in it's all open it's being converted to gardens uh so um and we don't anyway there'll be it'll also it'll be sort of uh open to some extent uh the way it is now it's just in the rear part where we entertain on our new patio uh and when we're doing other things that sometimes it's useful to have a little bit of privacy nicole I guess um I understand having the fence going all the way back but I didn't catch an answer as to why there's two different fences like why you're not just doing the wood all the way back like why you're changing to metal it's expense and it's um it's not really necessary to have a high fence in that area and the it's the same height as the fence in the rear fence in the rear is is metal and wire so it's it's sort of a continuation of that thing to create an enclosure okay so it so it's balancing what's in the back that's right that that will blend okay I okay are you are you in support of this nicole yes that's fine thank you I don't even know if you'll see that ornamental metal fence from the street because they're in the other houses kind of starts right there right yeah kind of back there anyway Karen has her uh hand up Nancy uh Karen yeah I I was at the house and Ronnie had shown me what she was going to do and knowing her and her gardening ability she already told me what climbing roses were going to be growing there I think it's going to be very attractive and I do understand living in that area and having the beautiful stone patio that you need to have a little bit of privacy I think it's going to be extremely attractive knowing the garden in front of it and how it's going to in no time at all be just a kind of a background for lovely flowers so I I would I say we approve it please I agree I agree I think it's worthy of a certificate of appropriateness and maybe at this point I'll so move um and and others I didn't know I think we've all declared but maybe not and who has been had so in discussion but just so there's emotion on the table and I suppose also emotion to close the hearing um so we've we've got those two moved at least and uh but I'm supportive do we have a second Karen my second are there more questions or comments the only question I was going to ask you on the street view if you could show how high the fence was on the house where it comes into the corner there um yeah it will go from here um let's see if there's something about reference I think we've got mid window for instance of I'm I'm sharing my screen if I you know if it's here um you know is it you know does it start you know at the base of the window and come across I think it's a little bit taller than that because you know that's you know um it's about four or five feet yeah I think that's about five so I think you're about yeah mid sash yeah like right there and it would come however yeah yeah although when you get to the left side of your screen it does seem tall but maybe it's you know hard perspective wait but yeah right yeah yeah this is like a fisheye uh yeah I mean our CAD there can is is accurate I could okay um and um if that was accurate that was fine I yeah that that was showing a six foot panel and that was more solid than what we're actually installing all right are there any comments from the public Ronnie you have your hand raised you can unmute yourself Ronnie oh sorry I I think Patrick said what I needed to say thank you I didn't realize that are there any other comments there's two other members of the public I don't see any hands raised right now everybody to vote then seems like we would be uh Elizabeth yes uh Karin yes Bruce yes and Nicole had said that she favored it and I also favor it um and I just want to say that the rest of your project looks very nice so I'm I'm quite pleased to support this next step um thank you for coming to the commission with this and uh good luck with the rest of it great thank you all appreciate it thanks very much yeah thanks everyone happy thanks today Nate do we have any other business that we need to conduct today uh let's see on the agenda we had you know the east Amherst um district I guess I'll say that you know it was presented to the CPA committee for the funding to have um you know we can't because the price was over 10,000 we couldn't just use Chris Skelly although we provided the cost estimate but the CPA committee is disgusting that and they'll vote uh for recommendations probably later this year uh the money wouldn't become available until July but it seems like you know the answer is there I seem like they had a pretty receptive yeah that's how it felt to me we had support from the historic commission as well so I think that was helpful yeah yeah I think that um I spoke with a CPA committee member and I said yeah the importance of what the work would be doing is really it's new inventory forms and documenting the history of the place whether or not a district ends up getting approved it's just that we have now this resource that becomes available we have a study report we have you know new photographs new research and so I think they'll yeah I don't know who knows where it'll go but um to me it's not a big ask you know the CPA budgets you know quite big and we're asking for 20,000 and uh and there's no I didn't have to me to be a very large um number of applicants this year right it's still you know right so there weren't too many applicants some of the asks were pretty big so you know say there's one half million available I think there's over two million in requests but some of those could be you know budgeted or you know things could be moved around a little bit um the only other one was the changing the bylaw to include parking and this is something I'll share my screen I've shown we I we talked about this earlier and I keep talking to the building um commissioner about it so is that visible for everyone so what one is sorry about these controls in my way um you know uh you know the local historic district bylaw is part of the general bylaw it's not zoning so it can't regulate use and so when I I pose this question on the mass planners listserv and some community said oh your bylaw already can regulate parking um other city has to be careful it's not a use I said no it's really regulating the you know this impervious surface area so um the building commissioner and I said well we could have defined a parking area as an improved impervious service within a property designed to accommodate a total of you know five or more parking spaces and so that you know that that could be adjusted but the idea was that you know a drive aisle or other things would not be included it's really the parking area itself and then um down in structure we would insert you know insert parking areas as a structure additionally one other thing that we've talked about is inserting drainage piping and infrastructure as a structure I mean the structure definition right now says means a combination of materials other than a building including a sign fence wall walk terrace or driveway but what we we could see is that someone has like you know drainage piping or over overflow structures or other things that I you know I think the district can regulate now but if we wanted to we could insert you know for amending the bylaw we could might as well consider what else do we put in there um so anyway so there's how we would do parking the last other place would be sorry for the scrolling would be down in the criteria we say if something substantially at grade it's exempt from review um and we would have some language to say um it's something like you could say however parking areas on a property that have again a total of so many spaces are reviewed by the commission and I think um you know and there's some other ways to word it uh you know what are we um you know what's the right number is five parking spaces the right way uh is it something else um so you know here demo I say or only review parking on properties if product involves additional units or bedrooms uh and adds to a certain number of parking spaces and so um you know the local historic district can regulate how buildings and things are situated on a property now and it could then inform what a parking area looks like or how big it is because if we think of you know property is a building is too far from the street because they want to put a parking area in front the commission could regulate that now adding this language would just make it clearer uh that if someone came in on a residential property and wanted to put in a 20 car parking lot uh that it would need to be reviewed the only other tricky piece with this is typically paving does not need any type of permit so if someone were to have a driveway and they have a garage set back from the house and then they decide that behind the house they want to just add a parking area and do nothing else to the property they don't really need any other they don't really need permitting from the town and so I think um when this lower box here the reason why we said if there's some other things happening then we would capture it because if they're adding to the property in terms of bedrooms or adding a structure or something then usually there's another permit that's associated with it and then we ask about parking but if someone were just to want to put a little parking area and we wouldn't know about it um so I think it just becomes one of those things that's where maybe five spaces is enough where it's a pretty big a bigger project than you know paving something for a two-car turnaround or something it's I think those are the considerations Bruce I think five is the right number I mean the right threshold because the way things work typically you need one is obligated to provide and wants to provide the two spaces per unit and we were faced with a duplex that would be four so it would be it would mean anything that's getting larger than a duplex notionally anyway that would this would likely be triggered so I think five is a good number for that reason as the threshold the rest of it makes sense to me except for the what we're looking at right now and I know this is you're just it's not even a draft really it's just it's a conceptual structure for a draft to be generated by or through but I think I wouldn't put I wouldn't insert parking areas in B here and then at the end of it say however parking areas I think I would just leave parking areas out and at the back at the end there say in addition instead of however in addition parking areas on a property blah blah or something like that because the parking areas is mentioned twice it's just a bit cumbersome but otherwise it it feels it makes sense and I think putting the drainage structures in because now as you know it's the while you're up get me a beer logic so yes I think so I mean the drainage structures typically are either at or below grade but I'm you're you're thinking that there might be head walls or something like that that would be arguably above grade right and so I think you know what we've seen on a few that especially with the new stormwater regs so the town just adopted some new stormwater regulations the state's doing some things and so smaller projects that typically maybe didn't have to deal with stormwater now do and so I'm envisioning that what we could see is in a front yard of a residential you know an overflow structure right or something that all of a sudden is like oh why is there this concrete right head wall or box or something yeah in the front yard yeah that's it for me that's helpful that you thought about that stormwater structure uh elizabeth or karen do either of you have comments yeah and my only comment is I think it's a good idea to do it to add it in there I agree I agree yeah thank you for proceeding with this I think Steve would be interested in seeing this because he was pushing for this earlier what's the next step then yeah actually I was able to get the bylaw in a word format from the town manager's office so I'll actually do this and track changes and I can send it around to the group and then yeah and then we can go from there I think the next step would be um there I thought the town was looking at changing some other parts of the bylaw and there's one other section of the local historic bylaw too I think that needs to be um updated we say that a commission member is required to serve their term even after it uh it expires until the replacement is um appointed and I don't think we can I don't think we can require a commissioner to stay beyond their term and so uh I there the town attorney had some language that they wanted to to put there instead and so I think that would be all rolled in good sounds reasonable yeah I wouldn't want I wouldn't want the sheriff coming to my house and it was written there for you Bruce yeah we're going to keep you here Bruce as long as you uh yeah this well let's hope the sheriff is a nice person yeah and I think it could be as you know if the next meeting if we like the track changes like I'll talk to the town manager's office about how do we propose this you know what I you know it might be that it goes to council and they refer it but there's probably you know there's probably some intermediate steps that need to happen good uh do we have any unanticipated items that need to come up or is there any public comment I was only one member of the public now no no anticipated items but I was going to say to Elizabeth your question about what happens with permits uh it is interesting um you know um like HVAC mini split installation uh in massachusetts an electrical contractor can apply for an electrical permit and begin the work uh without having it be approved and then within five days the town municipality needs to issue an electrical permit um so for instance and sometimes they may need a building permit but those types of projects the electrical contractor will submit an application they're probably even there the day they submit the application on site getting the unit ready and then oftentimes uh the town whether it's within a local district or not is approving it almost retroactively because the way you know this you know like I said this five-day window of when you can apply and get a permit um and so in the local historic district there's like you know a few outstanding applications like the one we saw today earlier where people apply with correspondence back and forth and then there's you know then the communication stops and so on the town's end we're assuming okay the project's not moving forward and you know I don't the only way I follow up is I drive by you know I'll try to drive by these sites to see if any work's being done what what could be happening is we should just cancel the application typically it's a building permit application it's not a local historic district application so in our permitting system anytime there's a building permit for any type of work in a local historic district I review it gets kicked to me and then I'll say if it's exempt or it's not you know it's not applicable as interior work and so it's not even a local historic district application at that point it's still a building permit application and then we're just trying to work with the contractor to get enough information to determine if it needs review by the commission and so there's you know like five or six out there where it's been a while and we're still you know everyone's every periodically I'll send another email or do something just to be like hey we know what's happening here and you know so it does happen I don't I think it's more of a I don't think it's you know like malice or anything I think it's honestly just not contractors not either being familiar with the permitting system or just not having good communication I've worked with a lot of contractors recently and I find that they're so good at what they do but email zoom you know all that stuff is just not something they do every day and a lot of stuff gets missed because of that because I'm operating in a world of like you are of emails and zoom and all that so I don't know if there's a way to kind of make it easier for some of them or yeah follow up more with phone calls because they don't you know email's not a thing yeah no I mean phone calls yeah I I like to try to do email only so we have a written record yeah I understand yeah because I won't give anyone approval over an email or a phone call but you know our the staff on the second floor especially at the counter they'll they'll hand you know they'll still take paper applications and then input it but everything for the building permit as of last July is all electronic so it is a whole new system before then we would accept paper copies and process things you know so I feel like this year has been a transition where people are still learning that there's a whole new we're doing a new permitting software so I'm imagining you know in the next six months right by next summer next spring when construction starts most people will be familiar with it and I think it's just the learning curve of the new system yep I have to go I think we're good are we or do we need to set a meeting date for our next meeting yeah we could I mean I don't have any I was gonna say I don't have any pending applications or anything so we could meet in you know like mid December I guess that we needed to um I will be out of the country then uh is there a certain date that um I mean so what when are you I mean we could meet then in early January I mean I I'll be back by early January and we typically meet by medium Mondays yep Monday's good so that would be either the 8th or the 22nd should we say January 8th and then you know if we have something if we need to we can meet some other time but we could say January 8th for now okay got it all right and we're saying three o'clock okay do uh do we have a move to adjourn don't move second uh Karen Ken Elizabeth hi first oh I usually vote by clicking the leave webinar thanks everyone thanks everyone have a good thanksgiving happy thanksgiving bye bye