 Two months after Twitter is banned in Nigeria, the Nigerian government and Twitter utter no words on the removal of restrictions and on the request of the prescription of a fenifera a group tells CNG not to provoke another civil war. This is cross-politically a dire merit and a cold war. Today marks the second month of the Twitter ban in Nigeria and still there seems to be no end in sight as both the Nigerian government and Twitter the federal government has announced that the suspension of Twitter operations in the country will continue. Apparently they announced it on the 4th of June after a post by President Muhammad al-Buhari was deleted for a violation of the company's abusive behavior policy. By the 5th of June the suspension was affected by telecommunication companies as Nigerians woke up to a Twitter shutdown across platforms. It has been reported that Nigerians have lost billions of Naira due to this ban. But we're going to talk about the implications of the ban today and what it has cost us as a country joining us to discuss this is Shina Fagwero Bayron. He is a legal practitioner and also joining us is Nelly Kailush. She's a broadcast journalist. Thank you very much lady and gentlemen for joining us. Thank you very much good evening. So I'm going to start with you Mr Fagwero because you're a lawyer and it's interesting to realize that we made so much noise about it and a lot of people went back to using Twitter you know through a bypass but it's been a month and some other days over it and not nothing has been said. People hoped that with all the suits against the government with all the calls that people had made even you know what the echo was caught did that Nigerian government would have at this point you know reversed the ban or done something about it. But here we are I mean two days ago we were talking about press freedom in Nigeria and the fact that free speech has been trampled upon by this government. Why do you think that there's been radio silence for so long? Well one of the reasons is probably because you know Nigeria the Nigerian government and all of us you know were under the eye of the storm and there are several issues that have to do with the whole bundle of Nigerian institutions. You have free speech, you have the judiciary, you have security, you have everything that is contained in the fundamental human rights that is being virtually challenged now. And I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Twitter ban came and a series of other things happened that bothered on people's rights. Take for example the security incidents concerning Sunday Buhu and Kano. I mean those are extensions of rights of speech and you will recall that the subject matter that required the banning of you know or the removal of the president's tweet had to do with all these accusations and counter accusations of insurgency. So for me I think it's like you know there are so many issues now that we have to grapple with. It will appear that the issue of the Twitter is just a branch in an entire tree that must be uprooted. That is the deprivation or the trying to gag the press. There are other two and you will recall that there are two other you know contentious issues in the National Assembly particularly one having to do with the press. I mean two having to do with the press. Now all these belong to the same category. If they are banned Twitter and we still continue to have threats to freedom of speech. We still continue to have threats to security. We still continue to have you know uncertainty in terms of the fulfillment of our fundamental rights. Then on banning Twitter doesn't do anything. So I believe that the population and a lot of migrants are trying to look and you know our focus is more on the I know those who are inclined to the reforms and those who are in the civil rights movement and a number of lawyers you know that I know want to look beyond just banning of Twitter what enables a government to get up one day and make laws or make rules you know out of a cuff. It's a violation of you rule of law. So what I'm saying in essence is that the banning of Twitter is a violation of the rule of law violation of speech. It could have been the issues the president wanted to address but I've been addressed to the courts right. Take for example the guy in I think it's Bono a state or a Damawa state who got a one-year prison term for being rude or you know he's what he said to the president was deemed to be seditious. Now that should never happen you shouldn't use the state to protect your person when it comes to things like you know speeches and utterances against your person. So they all belong to a whole category and I guess that rather than spend energy on fighting Twitter alone we have greater battles to fight that if we win the Twitter thing will be a thing of the past. So you're saying that we should forget about government ever reversing the suspension because they have the AGF had come out to say that they're not stopping Nigerians from using Twitter but he never really addressed the fact that there was a ban whether whether it was constitutional or not is not the case but they're saying they haven't stopped us from using Twitter so you're telling me that we should forget about it and deal with bigger issues. I am telling you that the government is not talking straight and has never really been talking straight. We have had contradictory policy from this government. We have had contradictions internal contradictions between ministries between agencies of this government. The presidency has spoken by the left and the president himself would speak by the right. The attorney general will say something and you have other aspects. So you really don't know where we stand but what we fundamentally know is that there is a threat to rule of law that is a graduation towards some form of military dictatorship of which the use of Twitter is a casualty. It does not mean that we do not have people who violate the rights to free speech or abuse the right to free speech but the law provides for address and we are saying this government is not taking advantage of that law but being extra judicial extra legal so we are no longer really under the rule of law but more like under the rule of women covers. I will come back to you because I want to talk more about the rule of law and disobedience to court orders but let me go to Nellie. Nellie you're a journalist as I know that you write a lot you do a lot of interviews I see your work and many journalists may not necessarily use Twitter on a day to day but then you publish most of your stories on social media because now you don't have to go to a newspaper stand to get your stories you quickly go to Twitter and you get headlines for whatever national daily and this happens across the world but let's look at the what you know the lawyer just said that you know we don't necessarily that we have bigger problems bigger than Twitter and we should not we should be more worried about the problems that we have as a country the fact that we have insecurity and people are dying every day the numbers have become just you know you just hear that ten hundred are dead and then you say oh okay so should we be should be justice in the idea of Twitter ever coming back should we also close our eyes to the fact that this is one of the many things that government has done without legal backing. For me everything is symbolic you see so it's all about symbolism what does a certain action represent and it's quite easy to say that they're bigger issues and I think that's always been the problem with Nigeria every time that there is something to consider we always say oh there's a bigger issue there's something else to deal with this is not as big as then we compare to the issues and we forget that everything is a spiral and a reflection of the very next action you're taking let's look at symbolism for instance banning Twitter is space where people could speak freely and criticize government and the president is akin to shutting down a newspaper because it had so many opinion pages and half of the opinion pages don't make you look good and so you either shut down the newspaper take it with your license or you burn down the building however you choose to see it that's symbolism using VPN to access Twitter and then saying in a court of law that I haven't banned Nigerians from using Twitter they can still use Twitter meaning we can still access Twitter from the back door is similar to people living in a in an area where they are they're locked in and blocked in by insurgents so you're not allowed to access certain news you're not allowed to speak in a certain way and the only way you can do this is to cross the border legally or illegally to an area where you have the freedom to do it imagine yourself in a Kenya Somali border area and our Shabab controls that region and so your access to news and your access to verifiable information is to cross somehow to an area that is controlled by government forces so at least that's free enough to access what they want that symbolism and that's exactly what this Twitter ban is it's all about symbolism it's simply doing what you would have done so freely if this was military era if this was a military space I'm just trying to modify it to suit democracy we do not have bigger issues freedom of speech and the right to be is one of the biggest issues in fact white people would die and we brush our shoulders about it white people are unconcerned about applying themselves to the issues in Nigeria it's simply because we have never lived in an environment where we feel completely free to speak completely free to critique and hold to question people who are supposed to be our leaders people who are supposed to be answerable to us was never understood that dynamic of leadership so there's nothing more important because it's symbolic everything is symbolic I mean give me an issue today in Nigeria that you would say is more important than Twitter ban then it means you you reduce the issues to a very reductive space because now you're looking at it as an isolated space of capitalism and maybe an isolated space of millennials or generational divide misunderstanding of what social media is but we both know that that's not true it's a simple case of an ego being robbed the wrong way and then you shut down because you have the power to at many you deprive people of freedom there are people who also are of the opinion that this is how we are as as Nigerians and you talked about it briefly the fact that we made so much noise about it like we were so certain we would get the government to turn you know to take down the ban or you know reverse the suspension but then I mean it's it's one month plus down the line and like I said radio silence we've moved on to other matters we literally acted like it's not there and we can also trace it back to other things the answers we made so much noise we screamed we cried we talked about it on shows and then boom it died off swept under the carpet could it be that these people these politicians these people who lead us have over time realized that we just were very sentimental and it doesn't last if fizzles out and we'll forget it when they bring something brand new and so they're taking advantage of that fact and that's why we're here today could it also be that maybe this twitter ban will never go away and we'll find ourselves in a situation where other countries like I mean other countries that I'm not in any way trying to top down on African countries but other countries where the social media space is controlled do you see us ending up there okay first of all the reasons for me are a little bit of both right and where do I see us ending up you can never tell where we're going to end up in Nigeria I have seen I mean in my short time being an adult in this country I have seen us you know change mood and by mood I mean both economic political and social environmental moods the moment a new government comes in so we do know that the government of Muhammad Dupu Hari is not going to be here forever it's going to come to an expiration point and for the because of democratic rules and edits he will be replaced and that's what's going to happen who will he be replaced by and and to whom do we turn we don't know at this moment as I said I don't think you know either Miriam and so until then we can tell when Nigeria is going it's most likely that this is going to be a political weapon for the opposition party so that might mean that you and I can just posit that we'll be back on Twitter again because someone else would like to look good on this mistake but however going back to the questions and the I mean to the instances you pointed out the politicians think we have a short attention span probably I'm not one and do they think that we'll probably move on after a short time most likely do we really do yes we do and it's not a lack of concern it's that we are just a generation that have been born out of the carefulness of our parents very careful strategic dealing of Nigerian issues our parents and most of us were born in an era where journalists were locked in jail some of them killed and our parents have lived through wars and they've seen people who speak up against the government losing their freedom their lives their families and yet nothing seems to have happened no one remembers those who died I mean take a look at NCAS people died and it's a political story now you know no one remembers those who died no one remember those who's lost their freedom who's standing in for them who's taking care of the families that they left behind and we grew up around parents who say oh no don't talk too much don't do this too much don't try this too much because there is a palpable fear whether we're in a democracy or not that has continued to be passed down from generation after generation and that is why it might seem that there's a short attention span it's a I wouldn't call it a short attention span particularly I think I'm going to really say that it's more of a disheartening fever in essence you want to you still care but then there's the depression of acknowledging that nothing is going to be done so you will probably end up a statistic for something that will never change it takes away the passion of it but there are still pockets of people everywhere I mean there's you there's me there's the media and that keeps reminding people and that's what I want to say before I take a pause and that's that we are journalists we are the media it's our job to remind people of what they seem to have forgotten Nigerian news has never gotten to the point where you say oh my goodness are they still talking about this thing are we not tired I don't see it you see it when you listen to international media they go on and on and about the thing and it's not because there isn't any more news because that issue is so valid it's so important for their freedoms for their democracy for who they are that they have to keep at it until they get some kind of resolution and on that I do not been on us we do not quite know our position yet as media and we need to remember it to keep at it until there's some kind of a resolution interesting let me come back to you Mr. Fabernero let's talk about yeah the issues that the federal government made in the first instance remember they tried to they said in fact it's not tried they said that government said that the that jack that's the owner of twitter or the CEO of twitter was trying to um on sit the president um through the ensas protest that's one of the allegations now there are also pundits who seem to agree with the government that twitter has had a close shove with many other countries and that there's so so many other countries even in the west we're trying to regulate these social media and that there is some political undertone to all of this that it's not just about the ego of mr president that was bruised so I want to ask you as as a lawyer as someone who sees all the things that happened from a certain prism is still a political tone to this because government has also tried to say that they um you know we're trying to get some form of payment of taxes to earn taxes from twitter which they claim they were going to be having conversations with them for hopefully we will get them to pay for the operations here in Nigeria but looking at all of that summing it all up is there a really a political undertone could jack be trying to influence governments through his social media platform well well the only politicking I've seen is the one that's coming from government but because the government massively has used twitter as an instrument and the issue that brought us about this was the government's own handling of a number of things um what was the president's response to people who are agitating for self-determination and what is his response compared to people who are actually shooting down planes and shooting uh our men in the armed forces and capturing children so for me you know I don't see I mean twitter is doing its business jack is doing his business his business is making his money if we want to talk economics and we say okay let's make a bit out of that money and see how we can charge twitter and all those social handleers a bit of you know something you know for their entry to the Nigerian space that's a totally different matter so I don't want us to mix apples and oranges I think the government is being a bit smarter by half uh by saying that because they're the ones playing politics but but but I like to just make a slight correction uh and maybe I came across as saying that twitter the banning of twitter was small and that we could not we shouldn't sustain it no that's not exactly what I was saying and I do understand Nellie and I do agree with her and I want to assure that I am on that same page what I'm saying is that you know there are fundamental things that led to or created the enabling environment for a president to ban twitter because of his ego the same reason behind the banning of twitter has a lot to do with the end star struggle for me the end star struggle was inconclusive on our part it made it in fact but we could have taken it further why didn't we take it further what was missing I'm sorry how do we take it further if people were being shot at and the government we can't even get the government to be accountable to the bullets that were being shot in the air how do you where do you start to take it further can I can I yeah you see let me say something it's a question of strategy I have lived long enough in this country to to to see people's struggle against military people who have won those struggles people have lost things that in retrospect what we could have done for the end star's issue let me let me speak my language there is a saying you'll be called moja mosa you know which means you know where to strike you know where to retreat you have a strategy if you want to we don't look it's not every battle that needs to be fought by noise and what I'm saying is that the fundamentals right that has led to the banning of twitter that has led to a government for example treating the answer take what happened to abacchiari now it's evidence that everything that was being complained about during end star's was a fact about the police if the police had washed itself up during that period probably we wouldn't in Nigeria wouldn't be honest with this grace by saying that our super cop is one of the most corrupt policemen on earth and the point is this at some point during end star's there was a point when the government came to the negotiating table for me the fact that end star's movement did not make a strategic retreat at that time to say okay now you're on the table we give you six months to do this you know that was in itself now it goes with any other battle against a government like this and the point is this what I'm saying is that fundamentally I you see anyone who expects a government who has been six years I know the nature of this president for crying out loud I ran against him I know the nature of this president he is not likely to change he was that's what he was in 1984 you get my point but I think the strategy right has to be a little bit different so what I'm curious I'm really curious what strategy works for mr president because I like to work I like to work based on facts just hold on I remember I'm sure you remember this vividly when the EFCC boss was not confirmed by the national assembly what happened he stayed on because this is what the president wanted and now we have a Twitter ban what's the guarantee that whatever strategy we have would work on mr president and when I say we I'm talking about the whole of Nigeria and all the people who use Twitter and those who are worried about the you know the gag of free speech where what strategy do you presume would work on mr president since you seem to know him so well okay for me for me I would design a strategy and personalize it for this mr president you see because I'm not going to expect this mr president to change my strategy will to make will be to make sure that nobody like this ever gets near government again you see what is on trial is the Nigerian institutions the way we operate the way we think with the way we engage with ourselves so what if they are on ban Twitter then everything is right in that way you know so what I'm saying is this let's keep on keeping keep the ball bouncing concerning Twitter let's remind this government from time to time that you said you was going to on ban Twitter you didn't keep that story going keep that story going well let's go a bit deeper and see some of the things that are connected look since we've been discussing on ban Twitter we've discussed security we've discussed answers but one thread that is running through it all is the attitude of those who look if the president says he's not going to ban it he's not going to ban it doesn't mean I'm not going to use Facebook and I'm not going to use other outlets to communicate and if you fight that banning of Twitter I will use it so I'll take advantage of those for right now and then I will see the problem beyond the Buhari the problem is it has to be beyond Buhari okay you see because there are certain attitudes and I'll tell you what Buhari himself is the Buhari himself is the why are people asking for a restructuring in decentralizing right now and they are spending their time and energy and lives on that because that is a deep rooted issue that will affect everything I'm saying what which one is more important the route or the step we have to ask ourselves on the better questions and that's why so but I don't want to be misread as to be belittling as Nelly rightly said the symbolism because it's a very hard it's a very powerful message okay you know well let me go back to Nelly Nelly I want us to quickly just look at the way forward we're talking about press freedom I was on a platform and we're talking about press freedom from different parts of the world and every country had its unique challenges but when it came to the continent of Africa the lines seem to be in fact it seemed to be very similar across the countries the governments in on the african continent seem to want things to go their way there is not I mean the countries that have free speech you can count them on one hand and Africa is a really a large continent so what is that thing that makes us throw up the kinds of people that become our leaders on this continent that at the end of the day decide to sit on us or want to you know not let us speak when they're not doing what they promise to do for us and I'm saying that detail for I mean countries like Zimbabwe we saw what happened in Uganda during the elections I mean it just keeps happening what is it what is the curse of Africa why is it that free speech is something it's a mirage and countries are thinking about how to expand free speech in other parts of the world but we're still talking about you know free speech even given the light of day what do you think the challenge is first I don't think we have a curse for Africa I think we're just a country we're a continent that is just newly experiencing freedom it's a hard concept and it's a very deep rooted psychological issue I mean it goes beyond just looking at it as politics and that that's why I go back to you know what we do for a living we are as I said before media we're journalists we need to be able to look at the nuances of every issue that we face as Africans and stop speaking about things as if they are just one track and we are just on one track looking for this is a good leader so that's a bad leader or this is it's never going to work that way because we are we are a fusion of so many things take a look at us my dear how old are we we just became you could look at it as 60 years is so many years now I believe in something that I've always said which is the fact that you're just beginning something that people have done years ago doesn't mean that you have to make the same old mistakes they made you learn from people's mistakes however human beings are complex and it takes it takes a different understanding and a layer of things for us to understand where we are so I do not think that Africa is cursed but I think Africa is still reeling from the admiration of absolute power right absolute power of your own internal monarchs absolute power of colonialism you look at it you understand it you know exactly what it means to be favored and so no matter what you say about it nobody wants to give up privilege so all that means is when you're in that so-called position of power you you now have to impose that on people lesser than you because that's what you truly understand as it is the idea of leadership and look at it through everything the idea of leadership through service is not an African ideology it's not and I'm not saying it as a root of us I'm saying it as a consequence of leadership before us and so this is a pillaged continent and we are in our moments of you know psychological reborn and we have to look at even our politics and everything is that and then when people believe in absolute power you tell them to give people a right to speak freely to question the absoluteness of this power that they've worked so hard to get it's not something easy that people can let go or people can agree with but it's something that must continually be challenged because generations pass Africa is going to come to a point where the generation that saw colonialism that fought for freedom or the generation that was able to separate themselves from military rule will become leaders so we have to keep at it okay I want to quickly say this you know when when uh when he said um you know ensass he spoke about ensass and how it's being fought I have to say I agree on one point that you cannot fight a person with a weapon that they understand you cannot do that you cannot speak any differently if there's anything this government understands and I mean the government of President Mohammad Ibrahim is riots and protests he saw it happen when he was a military general he's seen it happen from I mean dispensation after dispensation whether military or or democratic they're threatened by they do not understand it and they have only one way of dealing with it it's violence so why would we millennials Gen Z and whichever other generation after that chooses to question power do it the exact same way when we know the results of it all right once again we need to deal with our issues in a more psychological way we need to deal with our issues with a true depth of the knowledge of what our issues are and who we are fighting who we are protesting against that's the only way we can have any kind of solution we can't keep talking about our issues like it's a novel you know on the surface of it it's just not going to work great thank you very much and I want to end on that note thank you very much Nellie Kalu is a broadcast journalist of course Shino Fagwin is a legal practitioner really great conversation guys thank you so much for being here right all right well thank you everyone for staying with us we'll take a short break now and when we return a northern group wants the affinity to be prescribed another group is not happy about it so take a listen and come back