 Chapter 12 of With Her in Our Land. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Recording by Amelia Chesley. With Her in Our Land by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. Chapter 12. As I look over my massive notes of hastily jotted down or wholly reconstructed conversations and some of Elador's voluminous papers, I am distressingly conscious of the shortcomings of this book. There is no time now to improve it, and I wish to publish it as a little better than no report at all of the long visit of my wife from Her land to the world we know. In time, I hope, if I live, and if I come back again, to make a far more competent study than this. Yet, why trouble myself to do that? She will do it, I am sure, with the help of her friends and sisters far better than I could. I had hoped that she could go blazing about our world lecturing on the wonders and beauties of Her land, but that was all dropped when they decided not to betray their strange geographical secret yet. I am allowed to print the previous account of our visit there, even that will set explorers on their track. But she did not wish to answer specific questions while here, nor to refuse to answer. They were quite right, the more I see of our world, the sureer I am that they are right to try to preserve their lovely country as it is, for a while at least. Elador begs that I explain how inchoate, how fragmentary, how disproportionate her impressions necessarily were. The longer I stay, she said, the more I learn of your past and understand of your present, the more hopeful I feel for you. Please make that very clear. This she urged strongly. The war did not discourage her after a while. What is one more amongst so many, she asked with a wry smile. The very awfulness of this is its best hope, that and the growing wisdom of the people. You'll have no more, I'm sure, that is no more except those recognized as criminal outbreaks and punitive ones. The receding waves of force as these turbulent crosscurrents die down and disappear. But then, dear, whatever else you leave out, be sure to make it as strong as you can about the women and children. Perhaps you'd better say it yourself, my dear. Come, you put in a chapter, I urged, but she would not. I should be too abusive, I'm afraid, she objected, and I've talked enough on the subject, you know that. She had, by this time, gone over it pretty thoroughly, and it is not very difficult to give the drift of it. We all know the facts. Her position as a herlander was naturally the maternal one. The business of people is, of course, to be well, happy, wise, beautiful, productive, and progressive. Why don't you say good, too, I suggested. Don't be absurd, Van. If people are well and happy, wise, beautiful, productive, and progressive, they must incidentally be good. That's being good. What sort of goodness is it which does not produce those effects? Well, these good people need a good world to live in, and they have to make it a clean, safe, comfortable world to grow in. Then, since they all begin as children, it seems so self-evident that the way to make better people and a better world is to teach the children how. You'll find general agreement so far, I admitted, but the people who train children are with you, the mothers, she pursued, and the mothers of your world have not yet seen this simple truth. They talk of nothing else, I suggested. They are always talking of the wonderful power and beauty of motherhood, from the most ancient morality to Ellen Key. Yes, I know they talk about it. Their idea of motherhood, to what it ought to be, is like a birch bark canoe to an ocean steamship, Van. They haven't seen it as a whole. That's the trouble. What prevents them is their dwarfed condition, not being people, real, world-building people. And what keeps them dwarfed is this amazing relic of the remote past, their domestic position. Would you destroy the home, as they call it, Eladol? I think the home is the very loveliest thing you have on earth, she unexpectedly replied. What do you mean, then? I asked, genuinely puzzled. You can't have homes without women in them, can you? And children? And men, she gravely added. Why, Van, do not men have homes and love them dearly? A man does not have to stay at home all day in order to love it. Why should a woman? Then she made clear to me quite briefly how the home should be to the woman just what it was to a man, and far more to both in beauty and comfort, in privacy and peace, in all the pleasant rest and dear companionship we so prize. But that it should not be to him a grinding weight of care and expense, or an expression of pride, nor to her a workshop or her sole means of personal expression. It is so pathetic, she said, and so unutterably absurd to see great city-size and world-size women trying to contend themselves and express themselves in one house, or worse, one flat. You know how it would be for a man, surely? It is just as ridiculous for a woman. And your city-size and world-size men are all tied up to these house-size women. It's so funny, Van, so painfully funny, like a horse harnessed with an eohippus. We haven't got to wait for Mrs. Eohippus to catch up to Mr. Horse, I hope. You won't have to wait long, she assured me. They are born equal, your boys and girls. They have to be. It is the tremendous difference in cultural conditions that divides them, not only in infancy and youth, not only in dress and training, but in this wide gulf of industrial distinction, this permanent division which leaves one sex free to rise to develop every social power and quality, and forcibly restrains the other to a labour-level thousands of years behind. It is beginning to change, I can see that now, but it has to be complete, universal, before women can do their duty as mothers. But I thought, at least I've always heard, that it was their duty as mothers which kept them at home. She waved this aside with a touch of impatience. Look at the children, she said, that's enough. Look at these girls who do not even know enough about motherhood to demand a healthy father. Why, a sheep would know better than to mate with such creatures as some of your women marry. They are only just beginning to learn that there are such diseases as they have been suffering and dying from for all these centuries. And they are so poor, they haven't any money, most of them. They are so disorganised, unorganised, apparently unconscious, any need of organisation. I mentioned the growth of trade unions, but she said that was but a tiny step, useful but small. What she meant was mother union. I suppose it is sex, she pursued soberly. With us motherhood is so simple. I had supposed at first that your bisexual method would mean a better motherhood, a motherhood of two, so to speak. And I find that men have so enjoyed their little part of the work they have grown to imagine it as quite a separate thing and to talk about sex as if it was wholly distinct from parentage. Why, see what I found the other day. And she pulled out a copy of a little yellow medical magazine published by a physician who specialises in sex diseases and read me a note this doctor had written on sterilisation wherein he said that it had no injurious effect on sex. Just look at that she said, the man is a doctor and thinks the removal of parental power is no loss to sex. What men, yes and some women too, seem to mean by sex is just their preliminary pleasure. When your women are really awake and know what they are for seeing men as the noblest kind of assistance, nature's latest and highest device for the improvement of parentage, then they will talk less of sex and more of children. I urged as genuinely as I could the collateral value and uses of sex indulgence not the common theories of necessity which any well trained athlete can deny but the more esoteric claims of higher flights of love and of far-reaching stimulus to all artistic faculty the creative impulse in our work. She listened patiently but shook her head when I was done. Even if all those claims were true she said they would not weigh as an ounce to the ton beside the degradation of women the corruption of the body and mind through these wholly unnecessary diseases and the miserable misborn children. Why then what's creative impulse and all its far-reaching stimulus to set beside the stunted meager, starvelling children, the millions of poor little subordinary children, children who are mere accidents and byproducts of this much praised sex. It's no use dear until all the children of the world are at least healthy at least normal until the average man and woman are free from taint of sex disease and happy in their love, lastingly happy in their love. There is not much to boast of in this popular idea of sex and sex indulgence. It cannot be changed in a day or a year she said. This is evidently a matter of long inheritance and that's why I allow three generations to get over it but nothing will help much till the women are free and see their duty as mothers. Some of the freest women are urging more sex freedom I reminded her. They want to see the women doing as men have done apparently. Yes I know they are almost as bad as the anti's but not quite. They are merely a consequence of wrong teaching and wrong habits. They were there before those women only not saying what they wanted. Surely you never imagined that all men could be unchaste and all women chaste did you? I shame facially admitted that that was exactly what we had imagined and that we had most cruelly punished the women who were not. It's the most surprising thing I ever heard of she said and you bred and trained plenty of animals to sing nothing of knowing the wild ones. Is there any case in nature of a species with such a totally opposite traits in the two sexes? There wasn't, not that I knew of, outside of their special distinctions of course. All these side issues she continually swept aside all the minor points and discussable questions returning again and again to the duty of women. As soon as the women take the right ground men will have to follow suit she said. As soon as women are free, independent and conscientious they have the power in their own hands by natural law. What is going to rouse them to make them see it? I asked. A number of things seem to be doing that she said meditatively. From my point of view I should think the sense of maternal duty would be the strongest thing but there seem to be many forces at work here. The economic change is the most imperative, more so even than the political and both are going on fast. There's the war too that is doing wonders for women. It is opening the eyes of men millions of men at once as no arguments ever could have. Aren't you pleased to see the women working for peace? I asked. Immensely of course all over Europe they are at it. That's what I mean. But I meant the peace movement. Oh that, talking for peace you mean and writing and telegraphing. Yes that's useful too. Anything that brings women out into social relation into a sense of social responsibility is good. But all that they say and write and urge will not count as much as what they do. Your women will surely have more sense than the men about economics she suggested. It does not seem to me possible for business women to mishandle food as men do or to build such houses. It is also unreasonable to make people eat what is not good or live in dark cramped little rooms. You don't think they show much sense in their own clothes I offered mysteriously? No they don't but that is women as they are. The kind of women you men have been so long manufacturing. I'm speaking of real ones. The kind that are there underneath and sure to come out as soon as they have a chance. And what a glorious time they will have cleaning up the world. I'd almost like to stay and help a little. Gradually it dawned on me that Elador did not mean to stay even in America. I wanted to be sure. Like to stay. Do you mean that you want to go back for good? It is not absolutely clear to me yet she answered but one thing I'm certain about if I live here I will not have a child. I thought for a moment that she meant the distress about her that she would have some deleterious effect and prevent it. But when I looked at her, saw the folded arms, the steady mouth, the fixed determination in her eyes I knew that she meant will not when she said it. It would not be right she added simply there is no place in all your world that I have seen or read of where I should be willing to raise a child. We could go to some lovely place alone I urged some island clean and beautiful but we would be alone there that is no place for a child. You could teach it as they do in her land I still urged. I teach it? What am I to teach a child? You would be its mother I answered. Not as a mother to teach a solitary little outcast thing as you suggest. Children need the teaching of many women and the society of many children for right growth also they need a social environment not an island. You see dear she went on after a little in her land everything teaches the child sees love and order and peace and comfort and wisdom everywhere no child alone could grow up so richly endowed as to these countries I have seen these cities of abomination I would die a childless rather than to bear a child in this world of yours. In her land to say I would die a childless is somewhat equivalent to our saying I would suffer eternal damnation it is the worst deprivation they can think of you are going to leave me I cried it burst upon me with sudden bitterness she was not mine she was a woman of her land and her heavenly country her still clear hope of motherhood were more to her than life in our land with me what had I to offer her that was comparable to that upland paradise she came to me then and took me in her arms strong tender loving arms and gave me one of her rare kisses I'm going to stay with you my husband as long as I live if you want me is there anything to prevent your coming back to her land as a matter of fact there was really nothing to prevent it nothing I might leave behind which would cost me the pain her exiles costing her and especially nothing which could compensate for losing my wife we began to discuss it with eager interest I don't mean to forsake this poor world she assured me we can come back again later much later my mind is full of great things that can be done here and I want to get all the wisdom of her land at work to help but let us go back now while we are young and before this black stupid confusion has hurt me any worse perhaps it is no harm that I have suffered perhaps our child will have a heart that aches for all the world and will do more than any of us to help it especially if it is a boy do you want a boy darling oh do I not just think none of us ever in these 2000 years has had one if we in her land can begin a new kind of men what do you want of them I said teasingly surely you women alone have accomplished all that the world needs haven't you indeed no van we haven't begun ours is only a sample a little bit of a local exhibit if what we have done is the right thing then it becomes our clearest duty to spread it to all the world such a new life as you have opened to us van you splendid man splendid man splendid you thought we were to blame for all the misery in the world just look at the harm we've done just look at the good we've done too why my darling the harm you have done is merely the result of your misunderstanding and misuse of sex and the good you have done is the result of the humanness of you the big noble humanness that has grown and grown that has built and lifted and taught the world in spite of all the dragging evil my dear when I see the courage the perseverance the persistent growth you men have shown comfort as you have been from the beginning by the fruits of your mistakes it seems as if you were almost more than human I was rather stunned by this no man who had seen her land and then come back to our tangled foolishness waste and pain could be proud of his man-made world no man who had solidly grasped the biological facts as to the initial use of his sex and his incredible misuse of it could help the further shame for the anomalous position of the human male completely mistaken and producing a constant train of evils I could see it all plainly enough and now to have her talk like this remember dear that men never meant to do it or any part of it she tenderly explained the trouble evidently began when nobody knew much it became an ironclad custom even before religion took it up and law remember too that the women haven't died they are here yet in equal numbers also even the unjust restrictions have saved them from a great deal of suffering which the men met and then nothing could rob them of their inheritance every step the men really made upward lifted the women too and don't forget laws ever that has lived and triumphed even through all the lust and slavery and shame I felt comforted relieved besides she went on you men ought to feel proud of the real world work you have done even crippled as you were by your own excessive sex and by those poor dragging dead weights of women you had manufactured in spite of it all you have invented and discovered and built and adorned the world you have things as far along as we have even some things better and many sciences and crafts we know nothing about and you've done it alone just men it's wonderful in spite of all the kindness and honest recognition she showed I could not help a feeling of inner resentment at this tone of course we three men had been constantly impressed with all that they had done in her land just women alone but that she thought it equally wonderful for men to do it was not wholly gratifying she went on serenely we had such advantages you see being women we had all the constructive and organizing tendencies of motherhood to urges on and having no men we missed all that greediness and quarreling your history is so sadly full of also being isolated we could just grow like a sequoia in a sheltered mountain glade but you men in this mixed big world of yours in horrid confusion of mind and long ignorance with all those awful religions to mix you up and hold you back and with so little real happiness still you have built the world man dear it shows how much stronger humanity is than sex even in men all that I have had to learn you see for we make no distinction at home women are people and people are women at first I thought of men just as males a hurlender would you know now I know that men are people too just as much as women are and it is as one person to another that I feel this big love for you van you are so nice to live with you are such good company I never get tired of you I like to play with you and to work with you I admire and enjoy the way you do things and when we sit down quietly near together it makes me so happy van there were still a few big rubies in that once fat little bag she so wisely brought with her we made careful plans which included my taking a set of thorough lessons in aviation and mechanics there must be no accidents on this trip by a previous steamer we sent the well fitted motorboat that should carry us and our dissembled airplane up that long river of baggage little could be carried and that little on Ellador's part consisted largely of her mass of notes almost carefully compressed and done on the finest and lightest paper she also urged that we take with us the lightest and newest of encyclopedias we can leave it in the boat if necessary and make a separate trip she suggested also photographs she took and a moving picture outfit with well selected films we can make them I'm sure she said but this one will do to illustrate it did after all her requirements did not weigh more than the third passenger whom we might have carried the river trip was a growing joy day after day of swift gliding through those dark drooping forests and wide reedy flats and when at last we shot out upon that shining silver of that hidden lake and she saw above her the heights of her land my calm goddess trembled and cried stretching her arms to it like a child to its mother we set swiftly to work on our aeroplane putting it all soundly together and fastening in the baggage and then sealed up the tight sheathed boat like a trim cocoon then the purr of our propeller the long skating slide on the water and up and up in a widening spiral Ellador breathless holding fast to the supports till we topped the rocky rim rose above the forest her forest and sailed out over the serene expanse of that fair land oh let's look she begged and let's look at the whole of it first it's the whole of it that I love so we swept in a great circle above as one might sweep over Holland the green fields blossoming gardens and dark woods spread like a model of heaven below us and the cities the villages how well I remembered them in their scattered loveliness rich in color beautiful in design everywhere fringed and shaded by clean trees lit and cheered by bright water radiant with flowers she leaned forward like a young mother over her sleeping child tender proud gloating no smoke she murmured no brutal noise no wickedness no disease almost no accidents or sickness almost none this in a whisper as if she were apologizing for some faint blemish on the child beauty she breathed beauty beauty everywhere oh I had forgotten how beautiful it was so had I when I first saw it I was still too accustomed to our common ugliness to really appreciate this loveliness when we had swung back to the town where we had lived most and made our smooth descent in a daisied meadow there were many to meet us with my well remembered Somal and first and most eager Jeff and Celis with their baby Elador seized upon it as eagerly as her gentle tenderness would allow with reverent kisses for the little hands the rosy feet she caught Celis to her arms and held her close she even kissed Jeff which she apparently liked and nobody else minded and then well if you live in a country of about 3 million inhabitants and love them all if you have been an envoy extraordinary very extraordinary indeed to a far off unknown world and have come back unexpectedly why your hands are pretty full for a while we settled back into the smooth running her land life without a ripple no trouble about housing they had always a certain percentage of vacancies to allow for freedom of movement no trouble about clothes those perfect garments were to be had everywhere always lovely and suitable no trouble about food that smooth well adjusted food supply was available wherever we went no appeals for deserving charity no need of them nothing to annoy and depress everything to give comfort and strength and under all more perceptible to me now than before that vast steady on moving current of definite purpose planning and working to make good better and better best the atmosphere in the world behind us is that of a thousand mixed currents pushing and pulling in every direction controverting and opposing one another here was peace and power with accomplishment eagerly she returned to her people with passionate enthusiasm she poured out in wide tours of lecturing and in print her report of world conditions she saw it taken up study to disgust by those great-minded over mothers of the land she saw the young women earnest-eyed of boundless hope and high purpose planning as eager missionaries plan what they could do to spread to all the world their proven gains reprints of that encyclopedia were scattered to every corner of the land and read swiftly eagerly to crowding groups of listeners there began to stir in her land a new spirit pushing seeking a new sense of responsibility a larger duty it is not enough they said that we should be so happy here is the whole round world millions and hundreds of millions of people and all their babies not in a thousand years will we rest till the world is happy and to this end they began to plan slowly wisely calmly making no haste sure above all that they must preserve their own integrity and peace if they were to help others when Elador had done her utmost given all that she had gathered in the great work growing she turned to me with a long happy sigh let's go to the forest she said and we went we went to the rock where I had first landed and she showed me where three laughing girls had been hidden we went to the tree where they had slipped away like quicksilver we went to a far off quiet place she knew a place of huge trees heavy with good fruit of smooth mossy banks of quiet pools and tinkling fountains here unexpected it was a little forest or house still and clean with tall flowers looking in at the windows I used to love this best of all she said look you can see both ways it was on a high knoll and through the great boughs a long vista opened up to a bright sunlight filled the fields below the other side was a surprise the land dropped suddenly fell to a rocky brink and ended dark and mysterious far beyond in a horizon sweeping gloom of crowding jungle lay the world I always wanted to see to know to help she said dear you have brought me so much not only love but a new spread of life of work to do for all humanity and then the other new hope too perhaps perhaps a sun and in due time a sun was born to us the end end of chapter 12 end of with her in our land by Charlotte Perkins Gelman