 If I had done this to my children, I would be the first person to stand up and say, oh my God, I need help. I'll just say you don't remember. But I don't remember. Please consider subscribing, our little YouTube algorithm thing that sits on our dashboard says there's a 62% chance that if you're watching this, you're not one of our subscribers and one of our panelists. So please consider doing so. I swear to you, it's not gonna be painful. I'm Scott Rouse, I'm a Body Language Expert and Analyst and I train law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language. And I created the number one online course Body Language Tactics with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden, I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust and gain credibility every time they speak, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. I'm Chase Hughes, I did 20 years in the US military, wrote the number one bestselling book on behavior profiling and influence. Nowadays I train the general public and I still train real life Jason Barnes. Greg. Greg Hartley, I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, written 10 books on body language and behavior and put together the number one body language course Body Language Tactics.com with Scott. I spend most of my time on Wall Street and in corporate America. All right, well today we're gonna talk about Darlie Routier, she's in prison for killing your children. And the panelists have spoken again, we get a whole bunch of requests for this one. So that's how we're doing it. All right, anybody wanna add anything? She's on death row, indeterminate date, but to die by lethal injection in Texas. Cool, okay, you ready? Yeah, let's go. Her neck wound is still visible, yet she has no memory of the attack. At trial, even Darlie conceded it would be hard to sleep through it. I know I didn't sleep through that. I mean, how would anybody sleep through something like that? But yet you say you don't remember. But I don't remember. Can you imagine waking up out of your sleep with a man attacking you? What do you think happened then if you can't remember but you don't think you slept through it? I think that I tried to fight with a man and I think that he either knocked me unconscious or I think that when he slipped my throat or whatever I think I passed out. All right, Chase, what do you got? I think it's interesting that she says, I don't think I was asleep. And then can you imagine waking up from your sleep being attacked by a man? So we'll continuously see this theme repeated out which I like to call the vanishing perpetrator. Not important to her. And she says, why would anybody sleep through that? So we're gonna see a theme here starting now where you're going to see her socialize an issue. Instead of discuss her own issues, she'll socialize it around. How would other people do this? How would someone else do that? And I think there's some feigned innocence and regression in her voice which is a little bit common in the South. But you can see a change when she's trying to appear innocent. You actually see a little grief muscle up here in her forehead. And I want you to take a look, see whether or not it's symmetrical or asymmetrical. And I'll wrap it up at the end because there's a great illustration there towards the end. And she says, a man. And she's unable to broadcast any emotion with this is just relying on illustrations here. And as she's answering her eyes move, and I'm gonna read this out here, her eyes go from seven, these are o'clock positions, seven to two to 12 to 10 to nine to two to five during this one answer. And in this moment of brief silence, you can see tiny eye movement. So I want you to watch in this little pause when this video plays again, watch these little jerky eye movements. And this is what's called a transderivational search in psychology when somebody is recruiting all the little file clerks to go back and search all the file cabinets possible to get the best answer to the question that's coming out. And I think she says, you know, when he slit my throat or whatever. So there's two distancing things here. And we see a little bit of Mark Bowden's famous lemon drop, which I'll just, let's all just call it the lemon drop from that one. And with that, I'll pass it to you, Mark. Yeah, absolutely. Let me pick up on that one. Cause you're right, sour taste on slit my throat. So, you know, interesting. What does that tell us? Well, I don't know what it tells us, but certainly I would want to ask a little more around that, get a little bit more detail around that because, you know, that sour taste happens around there. Is it soundness at her own story around that? Is it soundness about the event? You could be pretty sour about having your throat slit. So, you know, I'm not sure about that, but it is very, very notable. She moves in this whole piece for me from certainty to uncertainty and confusion to confrontation, and then the idea of possibility. That's quite a move through quite a small idea. So I just get a little bit worried that there isn't one theme to this, you know, simple question, but it goes through a number of themes. Uncertainty and confusion, confrontation, possibility, and a very low blink rate on this, given the nature of the story being talked about there, I might expect just a little bit more action in the blink rate around that. So certainly as a first video for me, it kind of raises some, I guess, little flags around, you know, what's going on here? This is a little bit different, little bit odd. Let's go, what do you got? All right, well, I'll start off with three of the big things that little red flags for me. She does that eye lock when she's answering, which a lot of people do, but not like that. That's that sooner what Greg and I call the romance or where she's like all locked in and up in her face and trying to move forward and get closer to her. Even though she's got her hand up as a barrier on the table, she still moves forward. And her voice goes high on, I know, when she says no, it goes real high. That could be, it couldn't be, or, you know, couldn't denote or indicate deception, but quite often it does. I'm not gonna give that a hundred percent on that. And then we have fading facts as she goes along and gets quieter and quieter and quieter, which is something that happens quite often when someone's not telling the truth whether they're being and or being deceptive. And when she says, but I don't remember, that's when Chase, earlier we were talking with Greg about the culturally in the South, how you'll hear some women have a high childlike voice in the old days anyway, that was very popular. And in this case, I think she's actually, like you said, Chase, she's regressing here. And I think we're, I think to a large degree, because it's almost childlike. It's seven or eight year old tone and deliver on that, the vernacular, or maybe not the vernacular, but the way she's, but her delivery, it sure sounds like a little kid. When the interviewer pauses, that's when she adds a qualifier, fire when she says, what did she say? Oh, that's when she says, but I don't remember. Yeah. Then when she asks her what she thinks happened, she says, think four times. You don't say, I think this happened, then I think this happened, then I think it's one event. I think this happened, la, la, la, la, which means she's gone back and thought about it and she's in defense mode of that. She's not just letting it flow. She's not loping. Everything stops on think, which is, I think this happened, I think that happened, which should be, I think what happened was this. Somebody came in and this is, you don't have to keep saying, I think for every event that you've created there, if it actually happened. So that, to me, suggests he's focused on the defense of it as she goes through that. Greg, what do you got? So for me, I always say successful organisms do what made them successful. This is not accidental. This childlike regression, in my opinion, from watching her is not something specific to this. It's the ploy. It's the process that made her successful, whatever successful meant in her life. It's who she is. She's got all these tools at her disposal. It's whatever makes her feel like she can argue or answer questions. I've seen this personality type. I've dealt with a lot of this kind of behavior. I would say feelers, not thinkers. She's going to throw feelings out there and a lot of gushy, hey, this is how, and that's how. You can't discuss feelings. Feelings are not tangible things. So they may mean something different to every person. They're usually really good at putting the shoe back on your foot. So it's not about them. It's can you imagine? It's not about how I felt. It's back to you. It's putting you back in the story. So that's circular logic. And if you've ever argued with someone in circular logic, it feels like you're an idiot when you're finished because they just keep looping back to the same thing, handing it back to you in a different flavor. And I think we'll see more of this as we go. And if you were interrogating or you'd see a lot of it. When she says can you imagine, she does a slight smile, if you notice that. Can you imagine? A little bit of a smile. Nothing to smile about. Then sorrow, little grief in her forehead. And then that kind of plaintive, I don't know, I don't remember that all that together is a technique. All that together. I'll bet if you deal with her a whole lot, you would see it. When I was a kid, the old Southern women would say, sugar won't melt in that girl's mouth. And that meant that they were doing something. They were working some kind of ploy. And there's knowledge and wisdom in old sayings that old people have. That's been there a long time for a reason. Now that old South is dead, but that kind of stuff still lives on. She goes into creative very early and chase your dead on about her eye accessing. We think about people going to one place where they remember, another place where they create. She goes off to a specific place when she starts to talk about this whole thing about what happened. She does a request for approval, brow up when she's talking about, then he slit my throat or whatever. Well, hold on a minute. In my life I've had a bunch of things that qualifies whatever. Your throat being slit's not a whatever. He slit my throat, period. That would be an emphatic. That's an odd thing to do. And then she turns to that romance and starts to lock eye contact. I think if you push her hard, if I were interrogator, I would suck up to her real good, make her think, well, you're pretty and smart. Aren't you just brilliant? And then as soon as I got her to believe I believe that, I would start pinging her and poking her and watch that facade dry up, watch her come out. And we'll see some of that as this goes on. This is a good intro. I don't see anybody that I think is innocent or terrified, I see quite the opposite here. Successful organism being successful. That's it. Her neck wound is still visible, yet she has no memory of the attack. A trial. Even Darlie conceded it would be hard to sleep through it. I know I didn't sleep through that. I mean, how would anybody sleep through something like that? But yet you say you don't remember. But I don't remember. Can you imagine waking up out of your sleep with a man attacking you? What do you think happened then if you can't remember, but you don't think you slept through it? I think that I tried to fight with a man and I think that he either knocked me unconscious or I think that when, you know, he slipped my throat or whatever I think I passed out. The prosecution made much of Darlie's inappropriate behavior. For instance, the first policeman on the scene testified Darlie didn't seem concerned about Damon. He's got his eyes open and he's trying to breathe. I told her that she needed to help him, but she just wouldn't help him. That's a lie. There's no other words to use. That's a lie. She says she comforted Damon. I told him to hold on. Okay, mommy. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, there's a lot of good stuff going for her here. You know, that's a lie, that's a lie. That's pretty clear, says it twice. Okay, pretty emphatic, so I like that. Grief comes and there's some strong muscles here as well. So, and some curving in the eyebrows, which is difficult to do off your own back. It usually does happen with a real emotion. She gets reddening in the cheeks, the nose, the eyes, the lips, again, hard to do on purpose, hard to put on. So all the right muscles in all the right places and a very emphatic idea of somebody else's lying. And that would go really well for her until she clocks the camera. When by clocking the camera, I mean, looks right down the lens. Now, and look, it's easy to do. It's easy to do when you're on a film set, you're on a TV set. It's easy because often there's a lens cover and it reflects light and it's very easy for just some light to shine in the lens and your eyes just go over there and go, what's happening there? Interesting thing about the lens covers as well is you can often see your own reflection in there and you can see how you're doing, you know? And if you just look off camera and just catch yourself, you can go, oh, great. I'm in shot at the moment. This is a really nice shot of me. The unfortunate thing about this is either it is a narcissistic compulsion that during this emotion to go, hey, how am I looking? Am I doing pretty well? Are you getting this? This is a good shot of me, isn't this? This is going well. Do you get that emotion? Are you getting it? Is it good? So it's either that or an accident. Okay, so it's either that or an accident because the emotion is pretty good and a tough one to fake. It's pretty good, but that is a bit of a problem that look down the camera. It's a little bit too long, feels a little bit too knowing. We can't make any decision on that alone, but let's see how the rest of this pans out. Chase, what do you got? Yep, I agree with you. The grief muscle is powerful, but we see grief when she's talking about her innocence as well, so it's an unusual place to see it. I think that this grief innocence has been what gained her the primary three things since childhood, which is compliance, control, and social reward. We give what we want from other people. When she says that's a lie the second time, it's rare to see it, especially in a video that's older than five, six years old, there's pupil dilation. There's about one and a half to two millimeters worth of pupil dilation, and this is part of our nervous system, and especially, this is some research, if you wanna look this up, this is CUPCOVA, this is very recent, 2017 is the most recent study I've found that pupil dilation is directly associated with high levels of stress and deception. And there's no emotion as she initially recalls the first thing she said to her child, none. And then I think she realizes when she says the second part of this, she realizes, oh, I forgot to turn that on. And I think as far as Mark, what you were saying about the camera lens, her whole life from a person like this, her perspective, I personally believe there's some psychopathy here that her whole life is a camera lens. Every person who looks at her feels like a camera lens to her. And I've got no research to back this up, but I've never once in my life seen a person go through an extreme emotional high of crying and feel the need to make eye contact at the same time. Cause those two things don't match up. The high emotion and the drive for social connection are different, especially in this kind of environment. So I obviously didn't pull the guys here, but I would say when someone's freaking out, they don't care whether or not you're looking at them. They don't care what you think. They don't care what you feel. They're going through their own stuff. And there's no vocal tremors towards the end. When there's high emotion, there's high crying, this is another autonomic nervous system response, a first stress grief and crying, there's none. So listen to how smooth and perfect it is. Even with the tears and everything, I want you to hear how smooth it is, which is another high indicator of deception. Greg, what you got up there? I agree with all that. If you look through, if you watch everything she does, the pupil dilation is one of the best. This video has all of these videos, you can see where pupils dilate, which is a good indicator, by the way, of stress that something's happening and typically negative stress. There's actually a study, and I'll have to find the name and I'll put it down in the comments. There's a study recently about psychopaths and pupil dilation. And it says that their pupils dilate to pleasant things like everybody else does, but they don't dilate to negative things. There's no pupil movement to negative things, which we expect. We expect that people, when they see something negative, their pupils go, oh, oh, unless it's a threat. If it's a threat, they open to get more data about what's coming. So it is interesting to see your pupils dilate. One of the more interesting things to me, and Mark, I say the camera stare is creepy as hell, and my notes is exactly what I say. And if you're trying for pleasant and likable, that's one thing to take out of your repertoire is looking into the camera, because it doesn't look like you are. And Chase, right on, when I am crying about something like losing my kids, I don't care what you think. I don't care what you see. I don't care if I'm snotty-nosed and sitting there because it's internal and it's all about me. It's emotion. It's not about me, it's about the person I lost. It's all tied to me as a person. It's not about you and how you perceive me. I don't care. None of us do. And more importantly, this is even weirder. When we start to cry, guess what most of us do? We break eye contact because it's awkward and unpleasant. You'll notice that people when they start to break, when they start to tear up, instinctively look up into their left to break that pattern of what's causing them. And that breathing changes that we don't see here. She wells up really, I call it going down the well. She works to go down the well to find the emotion. And then as soon as she balls that tear up and it starts to reach the edge of her eye, then she makes eye contact. Really weird way of doing. Now, does any of this mean that she killed her children? Not at all. I think what we have to remind people is that all these are symptoms we're studying. And if I were sitting across the table, it would give me my next step. It would be like, hold on a minute. What are you crying about right there? And I'd poke on her a little bit and make her uncomfortable and maybe then be friendly, whatever it took. But they're red flags for us to look into and say that is not a normal behavior. It doesn't mean that she killed anyone. Could mean that she's just feeling sorry for herself. But there's a lot of other stuff that you look at as Chase is fond of saying we're not the forensics panel. There's a lot of looking for footprints, looking for other people. The last thing I'll leave you with is go look at the cop. This is a cop. This is the guy who was there at the scene. What you're swallowing is, I mean, this guy's impacted and this is later about watching this little boy die. I expect the mother to be at least as impacted as a cop. I don't see that. Just me, Scott, what do you got? Yeah. All right, well, I'm gonna go against you guys on the emotions shown in the forehead because then I'll go ahead and say it. I think we're dealing with psychopaths and I'll explain more as we go along. Now, what we're seeing up there is what she thinks is the emotion of grief. So that's why we see those eyebrows coming together and pushing like that because she thinks that's what it is. She thinks it's in and up where this should come down and make that upside down horseshoe. We don't see that. It gets close because there's a lot going on in there but she doesn't pull that off. And I think she's looking down the barrel of the camera. She looks right down the barrel because like you guys were saying before, she's practiced that. That's rehearsed. When psychopaths find out they're psychopaths and they realize they're different from everyone else, a lot of times it'll go down like this. For example, and this is like the example, like a Robert Hare example. He's the Elvis of psychopathy. Now, if you're a psychopath and you didn't know it, if you lived in Nashville, you'd probably live on Second Avenue. Downward's a lot of stuff going on. It's where the bomb went off this year because it's always very active. Most likely you won't live in this little small town. You're gonna live in a bigger town where there's action going on because you really don't feel anything. You don't realize you don't feel anything but the rushes you get come from adrenaline, sex and drugs. Not that you're gonna be a drughead or out being promiscuous but you will want something to make you feel something and you realize that people being around a bunch of them will give you that feeling. Now, let's say it's Saturday night and you say, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna have Chinese food for supper. So you go outside and you go downstairs and you're down the stairs and you're walking down the sidewalk and you come up on this scene. You see down there's an ambulance, there's a bunch of police cars, a bunch of people standing around and you come walking up on that and you know something important's going on. You're not sure what it is. And you come up on there and you see the mother, she's all bent down over a little child who's been over by a car and the child is dead. And you see the mother and you see the child laying there, you know the child's dead and you understand it's important. And then you look at the scene, you see all these people with this look on their face with concern, you don't know it's concern, you just know it's a look. Then you say to yourself, sweet and sour chicken, I'm gonna get sweet and sour chicken. And you go get sweet and sour chicken. You come back and you pass that scene one more time on the way home, you eat your sweet and sour chicken. About an hour later, most of the time, you'll find that person or they'll find themselves in the bathroom, in the mirror, trying to imitate the emotions they've seen on the mother's face because they don't know what that is. They've seen other people do it but now it's one of those things where you're in your early 20s and you go, I'm gonna check that out. Not that you have the feeling something's wrong with you, you won't have that, but you'll know you're different from everyone else. And to be able to fit in and be able to work your way through people and society and take advantage of everything, that's what you're gonna have to do is be like those people. So they'll be in there practicing and I think that's what she's done. She's been practicing these emotions maybe since she was in her early 20s or mid 20s. And that's what we're seeing. That's why Mark, you're right. She looks right down the Braille because she's checking herself to see how it looks and saying, yeah, well, look at this because that's what she's doing to herself in the mirror. So I think it's just a click back to that. She's doing it to make sure it's cool. She looks over at the camera and make sure you see that. So I think we're dealing with psychopath here. And not that all of them practice these things to be deceptive. They're practicing it because you feel I'm not like those other people. I need to be in 99% of the cases. Psychopaths aren't all killers. They're high functioning people. So it's typically not a negative thing that they're going up and saying, oh, I need to study this so I can manipulate people. It's typically feeling outcast. Like you were saying, Scott, like I need to, I didn't feel the same as they felt and I'd like to fit in. Well, it's a wiring issue. It doesn't mean you're going to be violent. It doesn't mean you're going to do it. Yeah, it's just a wiring issue, right? Yeah, yeah. Every time you tell that story, Scott, I think there's a punchline somewhere in there. Sorry. Sorry, I should get one. I feel like it's a long set up for a joke. Okay, I'll give you what I got. I feel like sweet and sour chicken now. That's my problem with this story. Is you're telling the story and I'm like, yeah, actually sweet and sour chicken would be actually quite good right now. It does sound good. We always do sweet and sour chicken last night. Yeah, here there's no Chinese within 20 miles. Yeah, I do the hot chicken after this. Addy bees. You and your hot chicken. I love it. The prosecution made much of Darlie's inappropriate behavior. For instance, the first policeman on the scene testified Darlie didn't seem concerned about Damon. He's got his eyes open and he's trying to breathe. I told her that she needed to help him but she just wouldn't help him. That's a lie. There's no other words to use. That's a lie. She says she comforted Damon. I told him to hold on, to be strong. I said, okay, mommy, the chicken's head is worth ever. The prosecutor says here is a woman who was depressed, gained weight, postpartum depression, behind in the mortgage, financially strapped. I was a normal person just like anybody else. A normal mother that has normal, you know, just normal like everybody else doesn't go to sleep and all of a sudden just snap and become a psychotic maniac killer. All right, Greg, what do you got? So I'm gonna keep this one simple. Normal, normal, normal, normal. I don't know how many times she said it, about 14 I think, I'm making that number up by the way, so don't try to count and correct me. But normal, normal, normal. What I would do is lean over if I were you and I'm talking to somebody who says normal, normal, normal, that much I'd lean over and say, Darlie, what's normal, do you? I wanna know what her baseline for normal is because I certainly don't see it. She goes down that path and this is classic chaff and redirect. I'm gonna use a word and I'm gonna sling it out there until you bite. And if you don't hear it the first time, you'll hear it the 14th time. There's a lot of pupil dilation when she's questioned here. I mean, you see your pupils dilate. And Chase, I love this one because I'm a big fan of pupil dilation as well. So having a video this old and having the capability to see it because I think she's been in prison about 20 years, I would lean into her and say, is it normal to go to your child's grave with silly string? I would do a pride and you go down right there to see because I'm gonna tell you there's some negative stuff that if you poke on it a little bit, you'll get to see it and we'll see it coming up. So normal, normal, normal, chaff and redirect she's trying to get you to bite and say, well, yeah, of course that's normal. Of course, if you're normal and that's normal, there's no way you'll wake up and kill your kids. That's, there's not a denial of anything. Look, I had life, I had this, I had that. We don't hear, look, I didn't kill my kids. It's that no normal mother wakes up and kills her kids. And that's it, Scott, what do you got? All right, this, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. And we're seeing smiling. We should, she shouldn't be smiling anywhere in here. And when she's just cranks right open with smiling right there. And why she's saying all this is because this is what she's heard. And as a psychopath, she's saying this is normal because she's heard that would be normal for it to act that way. So write down the path of a psychopath from where I'm coming from. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, let's just recap her words really quick since I like to do this in every stinking episode. I love that actually. In order of appearance, normal person like anybody else, which is you, normal mother, normal, normal, like everybody else, psychotic maniac killer. She's drawing a big distinction there between those two things. And I think there's two reasons that she's using the word normal. Number one, advice of counsel. And this is him not saying you need to hammer on the word normal. It's him saying unique, because the lawyer knows. I think the lawyer knows that there's something very different about this human being. And he's given her advice. You need to come across as a normal person that can relate to anybody. You're just like anybody else. So she took the words literally and fed them back. The second reason, I think she's using this because she's unknowingly ashamed or trying to cover up some psychopathy in this moment here. So she's not telling normal, she is selling normal in this instance. And I think that's really what we're seeing. We're seeing all this normal stuff followed by this drastic thing that she does not identify with. I mean, all of us have talked to killers. They don't identify as killers. If you're watching this now, imagine you just did something you probably shouldn't have done, but you know that you're not a killer. You're not gonna go kill a bunch of other people. It was just a one-time mistake. And that's what we're going through this rationalization process as a criminal does of I don't belong in jail. I'm not a bad person. This was a one-time thing. I lost control. I had too much to drink, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't think she identifies with this at all, but I think that there's some young in shadow stuff that we definitely don't have time to get into. Scott? Mark? I do have time for the young in. So I don't know, I don't have time for that. But look, here's what's interesting for me. Though there's a lot of cutting in this interview, which is a bit annoying. And there's a cut in this that could go against what I'm saying right now. But essentially her language doesn't differentiate enough for me between the accusation and the denial. It all kind of mashes into one so that the net net of it is her denial sounds very much like a confession. Now it could be some of the cutting in that there could have been a re-representation of the question. So it could be about that and we could say that. And it could be that just her language skill is very, very low, which goes back to the earlier question I had for everybody. I think maybe off camera, which is, do we have any understanding of what her mental age is diagnosed as? And then we had a little bit of this discussion about this cultural idea from her particular locality of presenting yourself in quite an infantile or juvenile way, okay? So yeah, we could put it down to that. Will you culturally develop a low level language style in order to fit in and present yourself in such a way? Or is that your mental age right now? Or the possibility that there is almost a Freudian slip of the tongue, which causes your denial to actually be a confession? And it sounds very much like that to me. Go back and listen to what she says. And it feels very much like she's actually saying that she did this rather than not did it anyway. Then there is this idea of, well, we get a lot of theme coming up of the possibility of acute psychosis, which is when stuff happens and you just don't know that it happened. Acute psychosis, people's eyes will go pretty wide like that when acute psychosis happens. And then like, I don't know what happened. Many murders happen like that. You know, very ordinary murders where people see red, they lose it completely. Yeah, they're violent. And then after the fact, it's like, I just can't remember what happened there. Can't remember what happened. That's an acute often, an acute psychosis. So there's an idea that she puts forward of psychosis there. Maybe she's heard that, talked about. Maybe a doctor's come in and talked to her around that. I'm not quite sure. Anyway, that's what I got on that one. And I think we're all done there. One note to add back, when we talk about language use, you have to take into account culture. You have to take into account a person's education level and just how they use language. For example, what is this? It's a pen, right? Well, I'm a deep South boy. This is a pen. There's the pig pen. There's a straight pen. There's a ink pen. There's a, we, you know, we add words because the way we pronounce letters and the way we do things. There's also common usage in parts of the South. And Scott, you always say what, you can tell who I'm hanging around with because there's common usage that we drop consonants off the end of words and that kind of thing. So you have to take into account where she's at. She's also now in prison and whatever language she's using. Culture matters. So we have to pay attention to word patterns in that as we're talking about this. The prosecutor says, here is a woman who was depressed, gained weight, postpartum depression, behind in the mortgage, financially strapped. I was a normal person just like anybody else. A normal mother that has normal, you know, just normal like everybody else, doesn't go to sleep. And all of a sudden just snap and become a psychotic maniac killer. Bill Parker, a veteran interrogator who tried without success to get a confession out of Darlie. He insists she did say repeatedly. If I did it, I don't remember. You did apparently say during that interview with the policeman that if I did it, I can't remember. No, I did not. I never said that. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, and this one, I've got much to say on this because it's he said she said and then she said she didn't say it. So, and it's like, okay, well, where's the recording? All you need is a recording. If there was an interrogation, it's like you press record. What, did you not have recorders at that point? So, you know, I'm not really enjoying this one particularly other than she says, well, if I did, I don't remember. Oh, so there's a possibility then. There is a possibility. Okay, there's a nice opening of possibility around that. And I don't remember. And so we're back there to a potential, either that's a lie that I do remember and I did do it or it is an acute psychosis. It's like, yeah, I just don't remember. It could have happened and I blacked out at that point. It can, it can happen. Though that might be, I don't know the system that she's in, but that might be actually quite a good defense for not getting a death penalty. I don't, I don't know. Scott, what have you got on this one? All right, we're not seeing any anger, not seeing any disgust, no contempt, nothing like that. And she's not contracting. Now, you don't contract your words every time by that means she says, I did not. She, you know, she may say, no, I didn't. I know I did not. You might say that I did not later in the second half of that, but you wouldn't say it out right out of the gate. I don't think because that should come with an emotion with that and she's not showing the right emotion with that. She should come across and say, no, I didn't. No, I did not. I did this, this and this. And it should be a little bit faster and she should be revved up about that. That's one of the things that in interrogation when you go in and you start poking on somebody as Greg says, you get him to that level. She's not coming to that level. That's a poking right there, man. And she didn't, it's not that she didn't take the bait, but she should have come back with no, no, I didn't either. It wasn't me. A lot of times you'll hear that. That's why I always say it. No, I didn't either. That wasn't me. So she contracts where she shouldn't contract. A lot of times you'll see in these famous cases from OJ Simpson and other ones where they say, they'll say, I did not or I did not do this. Did you do that? No, I did not. Cause you can watch in the monitors. If you, if you'll watch someone in their room waiting on you, you can hear on there and they know you're gonna say, did you take this in here and say, no, I did not. No, I did not. You can almost, you can hear rehearsing it not every time, but every now and then you'll catch one of those. So Chase, what do you got? I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Being good. That's a great example. So I'll give you a piece of ammunition you can use against people like us. One of the worst things, and I can't tell you the other ones, I don't, I won't tell you the other ones, but one of the worst things you can say to an interrogator is, I don't remember. There's very little an interrogator can do. That's one of the hardest things for people like us to overcome. We can't say, oh, well, yeah, you do. You have to be, and it's very hard to prove. So people who come in with that, that I don't remember, I blanked out because if I have a memory problem, that's the best way it's either I rehearse this elaborate story, set up a bunch of evidence, or, oh, I just have some amnesia. That really helps. It really helps guilty people. There's pupil dilation right before the denial at at least a minimum of one millimeter. I tried measuring it on my iPad Pro today with a little Apple pencil, and I couldn't, I couldn't get it because she's moving around too much. There's an eye flutter with the denial and a non-contracted denial. I did not. So that all, I mean, just let's go by the numbers, BTOE, behavioral table of elements. That's a 12th. Great. I agree with you guys, all this stuff coming together. She does have a blink rate that goes up. She has an increased blink rate. She has more emotion, more denial, than she had about killing her kids when she was normal, normal, normal, normal. Go back and watch video three and compare to this. And look and see. She looks a little more pissed about this than she did about killing her kid. That just seems out to me. It feels awkward. It feels out of place. Her pupils do indeed dilate, and then they pinpoint that flash that you see. I love that. It's one of the best indicators that stresses hitting somebody. And I've told you guys before, the only time I've ever actually heard anyone with words was Seared Guys. And when your pupils start flashing, you know it's time to give them a little bit of a break. So backing away from it. She does a request for approval when she's saying, I did not. I did not. Well, I would just say, no, I didn't do that. I didn't do it. But everybody talks a little differently. And I think, Chase, what you're just hammering on, there's enough here to say something is causing her to have raised fight or flight whether she's pissed about this. And I'll go all the way back to when she first was interrogated and he was doing this. That's a great opportunity for you to delay his time and for you to put him to work. Say, I don't remember. I could have, but I don't remember. Well, I could have, I probably would never say. Advice to you, if you're ever accused of a crime, don't say I could have, but I don't remember. I don't remember is good enough. Don't add that caveat in there. And she's got that kind of look like we're starting to ramp her up just to touch. We'll get to see a little more ramp up as we go. But here, I just see, hmm, not enough denial earlier. She's going out of her way to deny this a lot more. Maybe she perceives this as the threat versus not being normal or whatever it was. She's talking about in video three, but video three is about stabbing your children not about how you behaved in interrogation. I might say, yeah, I don't know what I said in interrogation, I would probably in fact say that because that was a stressful moment. I don't know where I was going. And Chase, like you, I'm not gonna give any more details than that. We'll keep it there. Bill Parker, a veteran interrogator who tried without success to get a confession out of Darlie. He insists she did say repeatedly. If I did it, I don't remember. You did apparently say during that interview with the policeman that if I did it, I can't remember. No, I did not. I never said that. Right. If I had done this to my children, I would be the first person to stand up and say, oh my God, I need help. What have I done? You know, a mother couldn't live with herself. But now, Darlie, they're saying that you could live with it because you're a psychopath and that you could kill and not have a conscience about it. I'm not sure that fits their theory. All right, I'll go first on this one. What we're seeing here, and this is one of my favorite things, is when you go and talk to someone, you'll say who's suspected of, let's say stealing money or something. You'll say, what do you think should happen? Because they're worried about their job, they're worried about everything. You say, what do you think should happen to somebody that did something like this? And they'll say, they need help. They really do. You know, they never say, fire them. They should get rid of them and get them out of here. We don't need that. They're a thief. They always say things that most quite often they'll say, they need help and they need a good talking to, sit down and talk to them, go over all the, because if they did it, they don't want to say, kill them, you know, stick them, hang them, shock them. Whatever you're gonna do, get them out of here. Let's get rid of them. Never do that. That's classic right there. And at the end, you can see her getting all fired up. I won't leave that to Greg because I know you've got that covered. She removes herself from all this by saying, a mother wouldn't. She doesn't say, I would never do something like that. Those are my kids. She doesn't involve herself in this. She's putting it on somebody else. This other, a mother. It's just bizarre behavior for a normal person, for a mentally normal person or the brain's working the way it should. And she's doing it because she doesn't know it sounds odd. It sounds completely normal to her. She doesn't think that sounds weird. She doesn't think it sounds odd at all, not even a little bit. She's selling it. She's way into it. So this is just, I don't have a lot to say on this because we're dealing with psychopath and what are you gonna do? These are classic behaviors of psychopath. Greg, what do you got? This is real darling, starting to come out. Darling, this is real darling starting to come out. You start to see that she gets a little pissed. Narcissists get pissed when you point out flaws and that kind of thing. And so we all know that all psychopaths are narcissists. Doesn't mean that all narcissists are psychopaths. And Chase, I know you were gonna jump on this and all of us are gonna mention it. I call this a self-stated punishment judgment. I would need help. Well, if I was saying that, I'd say I'd need my ass killed or beaten with an axe hand, whatever, right? I wouldn't say I need help. Maybe that is a cry for it, who knows? But certainly anybody who killed your children, you don't think they need help. You think they need gone, gone. Even the kindest of people are gonna say they need to be gone. She eye blocks when she's saying that. If you notice, she looks away and her pupils, again, these pupils are moving constantly on her. And the last one I will go with is when she says, sure, that fits their narrative or what they wanna believe or whatever she says in those exact words. That's her coming out. That's her raising her claws and she's getting ready to say something. I would have leaned over and said, everybody thinks that you did it. And in the television room, I would then she would get pissed off and I'd say, everybody said you're a psychopath. And you know how we know? And then start pointing out how we know she's a psychopath. And then you would see the mask move and then you get to see anger and all that stuff that comes with it because now the organism is not being successful. Like I say, whatever works, works and you keep doing it. When it stops working, you always say the slip of the mask, Chase, when all those subroutines they have that worked, don't work, then the things that are instinctive come to the surface. It's why Chase and I spent our lives learning where to put your fingers and not thinking about that when the time comes. You know, when you're in a military unit, the best thing I've learned from SEALS that I take into business meetings every day is it's not how you shoot, it's if you shoot. Don't spend time thinking about how you shoot. Everything needs to be muscle memory. And every one of us as successful organisms has a lot of subroutines and things we're walking around using every day. When we get out of that thinking brain, we get out of that behavior pattern that's normal and that cat brain comes up, all that other stuff comes out. And that's where we get them is we push them to the point that all that other stuff comes out. Right here you're seeing just a sliver of that, I think. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so one of the subroutines that you would expect to be running in any social mammalian brain that is well-positioned would be looking after other people. And so if somebody says, hey, what should happen to that person, the person who may have killed some kids, even the kindest person is gonna go, okay, well, they need locking away somewhere. They need to be outside of society because they would worry that it would happen to other people's kids because we're designed as social mammals, we're designed to, yes, look after ourselves, look after our progeny, but look after others like us. She's not executing that subroutine at the moment, which is kind of interesting. So that starts to point towards the social part of her brain isn't quite functioning as we might hope or expect. Now, look, if I had done this to my children, I would be the first person to stand up. So that idea of being, I'd be the first person to admit to this, usually is best when there's a potential group blame, okay? When there's a bunch of people that and it's like, no, I would bring myself right forward. I would be the most blame. Well, hang on. In this case of a mother murdering children, if you put your hand up for that, you would be the only person. So why does it have, why do you use a group-based idea around this? Well, because you're trying to distance yourself and push blame around. So then we get it again in a mother couldn't live with herself. So again, this is distancing. It's attaching yourself to the idea of the mother, but you're not saying I as a mother, I as a mother couldn't live with myself or I'm a mother, I couldn't live with myself, you know? It's going a mother. So distancing and projecting out towards others. And then when she's put forward this idea of a psychopathic theory, then we start to see the anger. We see the eyes lock. We see the tightening of the upper lip there. Anger starts to be produced because she's been putting out the option, I believe, of an acute psychosis theory that I could have done it. I just don't remember. And there's all kinds of good reasons for that. But you could come down to, okay, acute psychosis, let's reduce the sentence. She doesn't like the psychopath idea. She's not going for that one, which makes me feel like she understands potentially what that diagnosis means. What that diagnosis tends to mean at this level is a reduction in your status, which means you are no longer at human social level. When we say, hey, you're a psychopath, we're trying to reduce you to a sub-human level. People who are psychopathic really don't like that. They don't like being reduced to a sub-human level because they also have a belief that they are bigger and grander and better than others. They've got more, they're bigger, they're grander, they're smarter. And so that reduction makes them really, really upset in my experience. Who have we got next? Chase, what have you got? Yeah, I absolutely agree with all of you guys. And to Scott, to your point, you hear that all the time. Well, they definitely need help. I mean, definitely they should issue an apology to the victim's family, of course, like a written apology, a formal apology. We hear that all the time. And I think this is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard in an interrogation. If you watch this really closely, she smiles at the suggestion of psychopath. I had to watch it admittedly three or four times. I had to hold my finger down on that little slider button this morning. We all upload these videos into a folder the morning that we record these. But you can see a smile at the psychopath remark. And the blink rate goes up the moment that she starts to correct that. She smiles and then realizes, I need to fix this. And Greg, to your point, one of the best quotes that I remember from my training is when the crap hits the fan, you will default to whatever you have done a thousand times or more. And our night vision is really complex. It's got some stupid little buttons on it when they should be giant buttons. It's hard to work. In the daytime, when you're looking in a mirror, it's still hard to work. It's harder to work when it's 115 degrees. It's two in the morning. There is no moonlight and you're wearing gloves and you're in trouble. So it's not just a weapon. You've got to run all kinds of stuff and you've got to do that for hours and hours. So she's defaulting to what works for her in childhood and that's where we're forming all of these things. We're forming our personality. So this kept me alive, this got me results and this made me suffer. So that's a thousand hour, 10, 15, 20,000 hours that she's been practicing some of these things here. And that's all I got. Cool. If I had done this to my children, I would be the first person to stand up and say, oh my God, I need help. What have I done? You know, a mother couldn't live with herself. But now, Darlie, they're saying that you could live with it because you're a psychopath and that you could kill and not have a conscience about it. I'm sure that fits their theory. Right. Happy birthday to you. What really worked for the prosecution at the trial was this videotape of the party at the grave. Happy birthday to you, darling. I asked Darlie to look at it again. Do you not say, as I do, oh, for heaven's sake, Darlie, went to chewing gum, smiling, spraying silly string. Well. And the jury wanted to see it over and over again. You still don't think it was wrong? No. Maybe it's not the way that everybody would choose to do. But I can guarantee you the last thing a guilty person would do was to do that. That's the best. Who's the dude? Who's the dude on the side with his family? That's her husband. And he's like uncomfortable too, man. He's like, I don't know about this. Silly string in a funeral of anybody. He puts us here on the kids. That's eight days after the kids died. Eight days. Yeah, he's not happy. He's not happy. Lord. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I don't know whether you're going to include that bit that we were just talking there. So let's let's bring it up. Yeah. Yeah, the the dude there who I now understand is the husband who is not liking it at all. Hands in pockets, up tight, head down. Like he doesn't think it should be going down this way. Now, look, having said that, you know, husbands, wives, partnerships grieve in very different ways and losing a child can be one of the things that will split you up. You know, if you lost a child and you stay together, that's really hard work. A lot of blame goes in all kinds of directions around this. So it's tough to keep that together. OK, so we could expect some kind of, you know, fractioning there and we don't know how she's going to respond to grief. So, you know, there is a possibility. You know, I can quite see it myself. Well, let's have a birthday party like the kid would have had a birthday party. There are some reasonable reasons for the video that we see. So I'm not going to look into that because it depends on your bias as to how you could look at that. The gum chewing, the smiling, you bring grief into it. It's alone. It's a tough one to look at. However, the last thing a guilty person would do. And so we've got, again, this idea of thinking about what would a guilty person do? What wouldn't they do? And the idea of I'm being judged, the knowing that I'm being judged all the time and I need to project the right image of what somebody, you know, would do or wouldn't do in this situation, does have some resonance thereof of strong narcissism. Just that level of going back to her as the individual and going, let me not explain what was going on in my grief here, but let me tell you about how I understand how I'm being viewed. Now, having said that further down the line, she might be media savvy and know, hey, I know what you're thinking about this. I was in court. They watched this again and again and again and again and made something out of it. So look, I guess what I'm trying to get across here is when you're thinking about behavior and you're thinking about body language, there's a lot of things you can start to look at before you ever come to going, what might the possibility be? So this alone on its own is never enough for me. But when you put it in the context of what we've already seen, doesn't look great. Doesn't look great at all. Scott, what have you got for us? All right, we see when she says what the jury wanted to see that over and over, that's when you see that eye flutter kick in and because that's like a punch in the face, she's like, what? And she's going through that. So this again is classic psychopath behavior. If you have any, I've never seen anybody have a party at a graveside before ever, whether the person has recently passed or years later, I've never seen that. I've seen people go out and have a picnic or something to eat there because they're under stress and they're like, which is a different situation that they're not smiling the whole time. They're not dancing around and saying stuff and spraying silly string. She doesn't know that's odd. She thinks, a lot of people are under the impression if you're psychopath, you're brilliant. They think because of the movies, they think that psychopaths are just these really, unbelievably smart intellectuals. We're dealing with a psychopathic idiot in this case. This girl isn't smart. I don't care what anybody says. I think she's an idiot. So she said that's because when she says, the last thing it is a person would do is that right there and it kicks her eyes over and looks at it. You got to be kidding me. I mean, she doesn't know that's weird. She doesn't understand why that's not right. That's another thing it tells me. One more time, it just clicks off another click and it's just odd. I mean, you can say, well, he's acting odd. So it says that no, she's acting that way about that specific situation. That's why I think she's a psychopath as well. And I know Greg's got some stuff at the end there. So Greg, what do you got? So if I'm listening to this person talk in interrogation, we call something a source lead. A source lead means somebody said something that I'm gonna follow up. Well, guess what? I'm gonna be like one of those little herding dogs on her heels right here. Because what kind of a person says, well, I'll tell you what, somebody who did this wouldn't do, they wouldn't do that. That tells me how her brain works. So the next question to me is, well, what would they do, darling? And I'm gonna follow her circular logic and figure out how she came up with the idea to go have this birthday party and why. And that's through words, push, pull words, things that mean something. They genuinely wouldn't do this. I want to know why she's thinking that. And that gives you an insight into her psyche. Now, she might just be really dumb and thought, hey, maybe my people will feel better about me if I do this because I've already gotten some scrutiny. Maybe that's who she is. But we always talk about real smiles, do Shane smiles and fake and nervous smiles. Go watch her face. I'm not gonna tell you any more than that. Just watch her face during this when she's playing with a silly buddy or the silly string. Look, I've lost a child. Seven days later, you're not happy. You're not cheerful. I can't remember how long it took before we had a real smile again. It's just that devastating for people to lose too. And then to go do a birthday celebration with those eyes certainly is cause for concern. Does it mean, again, Mark, people are different. Everybody grieves differently. Maybe it's there. But I don't expect to see genuine joy in those wrinkles around her eyes and all those pieces that we're seeing here. When I get into there and I start asking her questions and I say, so exactly what would a guilty person do? Then I'm gonna run down a list and I'm gonna start poking and then I'll loop back and I'll bring up the fact she's having fun at the side of the gray, bring up the video and say, here's what I know here, here and here. And I'm gonna force that slip. I'm gonna force that out of the rehearsed and into the natural person and what comes up. It's catch 22 to say that only a person who thinks that's what a person who kills someone would do to hide. But it sure gets to a pretty interesting time when you start using words like that. So we have to be diligent. We have to try to use some guilty knowledge. We have to ask some questions, try to take her story apart, but man, that one screams because that's exactly how a person who's trying to hide something would think. Chase, what do you got? We're getting to the point of writing a book called If I Did It at this point. We're doing a little social speculation. And there's some rapid eye blinking here, which is kind of a TDS transderivational search. There's pretty solid movement down to this downward area down here, her seven o'clock. And there's a lot of dissociative language here. And I think she says this is the last thing a guilty person would do was to do that. And she's very certain. She says, I can guarantee it. She's very certain because she thinks that she's got stuff figured out. And she thought, I think she thought this through. She says, I can guarantee that's the last thing because I've thought a lot about this. I've watched 13 Seasons of Murder, she wrote. This would never happen. Or, you know, whatever it is. I don't believe it, I don't believe this at all. I think there's probably some grief there. I'm sure she missed her kids. That was extremely unusual behavior at best at the graveside. That's all I got. What really worked for the prosecution at the trial was this videotape of the party at the grave. Happy birthday dear Dylan. I asked Darlie to look at it again. Do you not say as I do, oh, for heaven's sake, Darlie. Chewing gum, smiling, spraying silly string. And the jury wanted to see it over and over again. You still don't think it was wrong? No. Maybe it's not the way that everybody would choose to do. But I can guarantee you the last thing a guilty person would do was to do that. Your husband's mother said to me, you said to her, wouldn't you want to see the person who did this die? Do you remember those words? I do. And I still feel that way today. But if it's you who dies? I know the truth. I know what really happened. I know that somebody else did this. So if I'm put to death, I'll leave this world with a free conscience. All right, Greg, what do you got? I don't have a whole lot on this one. Her blink rate increases a little bit, but she's doing the romance-er. Staring right at the woman's eyes, trying to make sure she says the right thing. And all of her organism, all those successful behaviors are back. If I'm talking like this and I'm going to be very innocent and I'm going to be whatever, you know, it just all comes up as she tries to do her whole convincing act and that thing. And then she gets into some circular logic that I have no idea what kind of sense that makes. None at all. So I'll die with a good conscience. But you're one of the person who's guilty to die for it. Well, I'll die with a good conscience. That's a resume statement of sorts to use your thing, Chase, but it makes absolutely no sense. And then she says, I know what happened. That's a step. She almost steps in it and then she corrects and says that somebody else, not some scumbag, not some, here you go again, Chase, people usually there's your vanishing perpetrator. That it's not, it's just random somebody. It's not that man that broke into my house at night, stabbed my children, cut my throat and climbed back out the window. She almost steps in it, which says, I know what happened and she quickly goes to fill it up. I think it's more this organism has been successful by being this innocent, shy, at times person. And then suddenly when things don't go her way, I'll bet there's a different person. I'd like to see what her relationships, other relationships are like and see what other people have to say. Because I guarantee you, angry darling is different from sweet and innocent darling. It'd be interesting to see that and all of us are. I mean, anybody who gets angry is gonna be different but I would bet her anger is very different than this thing. So Chase, what do you got? When she says somebody else did this, I think there's some truth to that because I think she compartmentalizes her behavior or dissociates her behavior to where she feels like that was another part of her that's responsible for this and the part of her that's sitting there right now that's worried about going to prison does have a clean conscience. And I think that psychopathy, I'm not a doctor, psychopathy regularly adjusts itself and calibrates itself based on those things. That was a different part of me. It's not me right now that's different. So that's why as Scott was talking about sweet and sour chicken, that's when that stuff happens. It's a different part. When we should see some grief, we see pretend to grief. We see people faking it. If you wanna see grief, it should make a little V shape like if Greg could demonstrate that little shape there, that's it. And we see some wonderful pupil dilation here in this video. It's really great. I think it's at least two millimeters of dilation which means expansion. And this upward gazing, this downward head is something that was cool back in the days of Betty Boop and probably stuck around till princess die. And it's not a normal way of communicating anymore especially for an adult. And I think her fake grief gives us a little bit more in that it's asymmetrical. And what I mean by this is the part of the brain that does real facial expressions. I guarantee you, you have never had a really enjoyable experience where you had to think about smiling. It happens automatically. So it comes from, let's say it comes from one part of the brain over here, but when we have to fake smile, it has to come from a whole different part of the brain. And that part of the brain is not as six million years evolved into bilaterally tightening the muscles on each side of the face. So false facial expressions are often asymmetrical because of that point. And I'll leave it at that, Mark. Yeah, so remember when she record that emotion, I think it was in video two. And that was good enough for me. Like I had some empathy for her on video two. There was enough information in that for me to go, oh, I really feel for you right now. So that's kind of interesting. Like she is able to have a real emotion there or recall one and give me enough information so that my mirror neurons reproduce her face, not on my face, but internally. And I start to feel the feeling. That's what happens when you have a good actor in front of you. Your mirror neurons start reproducing their behavior inside your head, within the context that you've seen their story evolve as well. And they're not having the feeling anymore because it's probably on a film or TV. Their feeling went a long time ago, but you're having the feeling. It's a great kind of trick that happens there. This time around, I believe she tries to do it again and she doesn't manage it. We can see her, in my mind, I see her pushing for that emotion and it doesn't fall over the edge for her. It doesn't trigger and she decides to pull back on that and not go there. Now, how can she be, in my mind, like so good in video two and not so good here? And why would this potential psychopath be a good actor in the first place? Well, actually, most really good actors that I know are not newly typical. They have a brain which is often able to produce, on command, a controlled psychosis. They're able to be somebody else having an emotion in a situation that isn't really happening and it not tip over the edge so it's uncontrollable. When somebody says cut, they're able to stop. And when somebody says, hey, action, they're able to start it again. So they're able to go into a psychosis but under control and you need a certain mindset to be able to do that. I think she probably has an element of that mindset to be able to create that moment of imagination, that moment of storytelling, not quite good enough, not super professional enough to be able to do it again and then again and again on command because I think she fails here. That's all I've got for you on that. It's me. Stop, what do you got? All right. She blames everybody else. And we've covered, you all covered everything on this. When she says, do you remember what she said when you like to see the person die? She says, I do. And then the interviewer just waits and that's when she adds that part and I still do. I still feel like that. Hey, come on, man. So, and then at the end there, I agree with you, Greg. I don't know what she's talking about but I know what's happened there. She said, she knows at the end of this she's got to wrap up and say her thing that's going to make her, being a psychopath. She wants people to think about her, remember. So she has to say something. And we looked at Ramirez and he was saying all these quotes from everywhere. Everybody's from Kafka, I don't like Shakespeare and everybody else. And in this thing, she's rehearsed that ending and you can see it because at that point she's performing this ending at the very end speaking of acting, Mark. So she was ready for that and she knew she had to get that out because she can feel it wrapping up, the interview wrapping up. So that's why I think she said, and she went on with that explanation, one of the things she's talking about where her conscience is, she'll die with a clean conscience or clear conscience. So yeah, that's all I got. Your husband's mother said to me, you said to her, wouldn't you want to see the person who did this die? Do you remember those words? I do, and I still feel that way today. But if it's you who dies? I know the truth. I know what really happened. I know that somebody else did this. So if I'm put to death, I'll leave this world with a free conscience. All right fellas, this was a good one. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe and hit that little bell down there. You'll know we have new one come out. All right, anybody else got anything? Hey, do you want to pitch it around the rim on this one? Like we typically do. Oh, let's do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we probably should up front say we don't care whether she's guilty or innocent. We're just looking to see what we see. Remember we usually do, but for sure the wrap. Yeah, let's just leave that in, because that's what we're doing. Yeah, that's what we're doing. We're just telling you what we see. All right, then I'll go first. We'll go around me, we'll end up with you Greg. All right, I think we're seeing, mostly we're seeing deception here. And we're seeing someone acting. And we're seeing a psychopath trying to make itself look better. And put some blame on everybody else, remove itself from all the guilt. And it's classic psychopathic behavior. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, the same, a lot of good, I think quite good performance here, but too much going on that takes her away from the crime and positions herself in a place of no responsibility and no social responsibility. And so for me, it suggests a certain type of personality which can be more than a little bit dangerous under the right circumstances. Chase, what do you got? Yep, I agree. We're seeing just a bunch of clips from a sales pitch. This is a sales pitch or an audition, if you will. And we're seeing it from a person who may or may not suffer from a mental illness or have some kind of psychopathy involved here. Greg? Yeah, what I see is, I don't know if it's psychopathy, I don't know exactly, we all would have to spend a little more time with her. But what I see is the organism doing what the organism's always done until it doesn't have a tool to use. And then the person starts to show up. We all do it. Every one of us has our own subroutines we use. I think you hit it good, Chase. My soldier's compartmentalized. Everybody compartmentalizes. Everybody learns how to deal with things differently. And whatever's worked for her, whatever that little voice, all those things she's done, she uses. Until a couple of times in there, I see a little slip. I see a little place where I think I can bring the monkey to the dance. And when I get the monkey out, then I can start making that person respond to stimulus, as opposed to whatever's been. I think he doesn't like that. All right, I'll back it up. Mommy, it was fun. We always say you bring the monkey to the disco. Yeah, yeah. That's what they say. You bring him under those good old chestnuts. You guys have. So when I see that start to slip, then I'm gonna take the person out of the play and bring the monkey to the dance. Once I get the monkey started, then I'm working on that part of the brain, not the thinking logical forward thinking brain. Now I'm gonna go after, what doesn't make the organism successful. So all I see is what this person is doing is what's made the organism successful to now. And the minute I start to see that slip, it gives me the opportunity as an interrogator sitting across from her to use those push-pull words to take her into a position where all that information isn't working anymore. And now I make her react instead of whatever act she has for me. That's what I see. Okay. We behave your panel. Innocent shy. 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