 Howdy everyone. Hello. My name is Danica Katowicz. I'm CodePink's national co-director. CodePink is joining our partners and declaring it Daniel Ellsberg week to honor him, his long life of truth and activism, and all whistleblowers who at great personal risk dared to tell people of the world the truth about US wars, militarism, surveillance, etc. In 1971, Daniel Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon papers documenting decades of lies and mistakes in Vietnam. In 91, he faces a new battle in an operable cancer. Dan Ellsberg was given months to live and he uses his last months doing what he does best and what he's been doing for decades, raising the threat of nuclear war and giving the peak movement a great foundation of truth to stand on. Today we have a great line of speakers to honor Dan Ellsberg and to raise up the importance of whistleblowers. We'll have time for questions at the end of the whole program. We'll be about an hour. So we'll use about the last 15 to 20 minutes for questions. Until then, please put questions in the chat in the Q&A sections that come up and I'll also be monitoring the chat for your questions as well. First, it's my honor to introduce Jesslyn Radick. Jesslyn is an American national security and human rights attorney known for her defense of whistleblowers, journalists and hacktivists including Daniel Hale, who is currently serving out an almost four year sentence for leaking damning information about the US drone program. Jesslyn graduated from Brown University and Yale Law School and began her career as an honor program attorney at the US Department of Justice. And with that I will pass it to Jesslyn. Hi, I'm glad to be here but sad for the occasion given Dan Ellsberg's declining health and given that Daniel Hale is still in prison. It's Daniel Ellsberg when I was investigated for leaking information, Daniel Ellsberg was the first person to reach out to me and he literally just called me at home. It was like, Hi, this is Dan Ellsberg. And, you know, started explaining who he was and I'm like, oh my God, I know who you are like I just studied you in my political science class I just wrote a paper on you and, but that willingness to kind of go the extra mile I mean, a lot of people go whistleblowing ordeal and they are so battered and bruised and bankrupt and broken from the whole thing that they want to leave the experience behind them understandably. And to his credit, Dan Ellsberg has continued to mentor an entire generation of people who have been going through the living hell of whistleblowing and like he reached out to me. When Daniel first showed up on my doorstep in 2014. That was the first person I called was Dan Ellsberg to talk to Daniel Hill because I knew that he was uniquely positioned to understand the problems of being charged under the espionage act, especially when you were acting in a patriotic and truthful way to expose grave wrongdoing. So again, I mean he has been just a generational mentor and I think a kind of a just a sign of strength and a standard bear a friend, a confidant. And I know speaks frequently with Daniel, hail, you know in terms of Daniel hail his prosecution continues to be one of the most unjust under the espionage act. Except for reality winner he is serving the stiffest jail sentence for basically revealing truthful information to the press about the US targeted killing program, and how the US deceives the public about the targeting and the effectiveness and the capabilities of the drone program consistently exaggerating how accurate it is and under reporting civilian deaths. The fact that his case has dragged out for so long I mean it's almost punishment by process, because, again, like the search of his house was back in 2014 and here we are. 2023. So it's been almost a decade and I would argue punishment by process and just the sort of Damocles hanging over Daniels head, all those years waiting for, for the inevitable to happen. And then just having one of the harshest outcomes has been really hard, mostly on Daniel, but I thought his case was significant because it was the first time a judge recognized him or any defendant I've represented as an actual whistleblower. The judge also had recommended that he be put in a minimum security facility and in a medical prison, and which I thought was very generous of the judge and compassionate, but the Bureau of Prisons had to exact it's a pound of flesh, and ended up sending this Orwellian communications management unit that is nicknamed Gitmo North and designed to house terrorists. So it just shows that, you know, someone who's a pacifist like Daniel with no priors. The US is still just going to treat him as harshly as possible. And in the CMU where he's currently housed, he's far more isolated from his support network, unable to receive the medical care he desperately needs and even the judge recognized he needed and has so many more restrictions on him than most prisoners do. You know, I think in the grand scheme of whistleblowing, like Dan Ellsberg Daniel Hale will be remembered favorably by history. And I know that's of cold comfort. You're in a spiral of unfairness that seems to have no bottom. But I've never seen someone more deserving of a case for a pardon and an apology from his country and actually thank you. I will continue to support Daniel unfailingly till my dying breath. I mean he's a stand up person who has paid an enormous horrible price for doing the right thing. Thank you, gentlemen. Thanks for highlighting Daniel Hale, the John whistleblower who's actually serving his sentence like five hours south of me. I'm in Chicago and he's in Mary and Illinois. So next we have, I'm really excited to introduce John Kiriakou. John is a former CIA officer, former senior investigator for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and former counter terrorism consulted for ABC News. In 2007, Kiriakou blew the whistle on the CIA's torture program, telling ABC News that the CIA tortured prisoners that torture was official US government policy, and that the policy had been approved by then President George W. Bush. He became the sixth whistleblower indicted by the Obama administration under the Espionage Act. He served 23 months in prison as a result of the revelation and I will pass it to John and spotlight him. There we go. Thanks. Thanks, Danica. And thanks everybody. I was honored to even be considered to speak about Dan Ellsberg, the great Dan Ellsberg, and jumped at the opportunity. I've told this story before so forgive me if it's if it's a repeat for you but when I was when I was a little kid or all the years that I was growing up. My, my parents insisted that we always have dinner as a family every night there were five of us I have a brother and sister both younger than I am. And every day my my dad who was an elementary school principal and my mom who was an elementary school teacher would would come home around for my mom would make dinner and we would all sit down to eat and we would always talk about the events of the world even when I was a little kid. One of my earliest memories was asking my dad why there were so many fires on TV and he told me that someone had shot Martin Luther King and that people were very angry about this but one of the things that that has stuck in my mind over these many years. 52 53 years now was about Dan Ellsberg. Dan Ellsberg was a hero in our family. And I remember my father, when I was only six years old, explaining to me that this man this one man had decided to tell the American people the truth when everybody else was lying about the truth. He came from a very large family. I have 27 first cousins on my mom's side, and many of them, seven of them of the 27 fought in Vietnam, and thought that they were fighting in Vietnam for the right reasons, and believed what they were being told that we were the good guys, we were on the side of righteousness. We were there to protect the American people and to protect the American way of life, and we were winning. And all of that was a lie. And we didn't even know it was a lie until Dan Ellsberg told us. So this was revelatory. And my parents made sure that we understood even at those young ages that Daniel Ellsberg was a bona fide American hero. That was in 1970, of course. And as I got older, I was interested in current events and in foreign affairs. I knew I wanted to do something in foreign affairs and I ended up going to college in Washington at George Washington University and Dan Ellsberg every once in a while would come to D.C. And he would speak at Georgetown or George Washington University or American University, and many of us would always make the pilgrimage to go see Dan Ellsberg. You know, Dan would speak and sometimes debate with people like Abby Hoffman, for example, you know, people who had gone through similar experiences but from a different angle. And he was always a beacon of light and of hope in transparency and in truthfulness. I never thought that I would ever have the opportunity to actually meet the man. And I didn't want to be, you know, a stalker and wait until after the speech was done to stand there and fawn all over him and such but I mean privately I did fawn all over him he was a hero to me. I had a similar experience to Jess Lynn's experience. When I got in trouble and I got arrested. I got together for dinner one night with Jess and with Tom Drake and Kevin Gestola and a couple of other people here in Washington and Dan called in to say hello, and to wish me well. It was the first time I'd ever spoken to Daniel Ellsberg and it was like meeting a rock star. Listen, I'm not, I'm not one to be star struck by people. Over the course of my career I met with kings and presidents and prime ministers and it's just not that big of a deal but it was a big deal to meet Dan Ellsberg. I literally put his life on the line for truth and for transparency. It's a man I had looked up to from the age of six, and I got to meet him over the phone. Well I went to prison in early 2013. One of the first letters that I received was from Dan. And Dan wrote to me regularly, religiously, faithfully. And one of the things that was just so wonderful was that he would always close his letters by saying love Dan. The letters were always typed but at the bottom he would hand write love Dan. It's nice to think what a warm and wonderful thing that he's doing. It got to the point where, you know, the prison guards always read your mail and sometimes they, you know, don't give it to you or they alter it or they cut things out or black things out as a prison can well attest. Thanks to Jesslyn I was able to smuggle a lot of my, my letters out of out of prison to Jess. And, and finally one of the guards said to me listen, you know I'm probably not supposed to tell you this but your buddy is, is at the college down the street. I was in FCI Loretto Pennsylvania, the federal correctional institution at Loretto Pennsylvania. And there was a small Catholic college there, Saint, I forget, Vincent's maybe I don't know it had like 10 people in it. And it used to be a Catholic monastery. But it was down the street and that's where the guys in the minimum security work camp worked as janitors. And I had a friend at the, at the university, and he said, your friend he's speaking at the university, this Ellsberg guy, and I said Dan's in town. I couldn't believe it. And then this prison guard, and the prison guards listen are not there to be your friends there in most cases your enemies. The guard actually cut the article out of the local newspaper to give to me so I could see the transcript of Dan's speech, and the response to, to a visit to this little tiny town with 1200 people in it by this American giant, this, this giant of modern American history. It was actually a warm and very thoughtful thing to do. We are more than a decade later, and I can't tell you how proud I am to call Dan, not, not just an idol for me. I mean, do 58 year old men have idols, I can tell you that yeah we do. But I'm proud to call him a friend. It's heartbreaking that he's ill, and that he's suffering right now, but I spoke to him last week and I'm glad that I had the opportunity to tell him that even going through the process of death. He's doing it with such dignity and such grace with an eye toward the greater good that even in these final weeks of his life, he continues to be a role model for all of us. My own father, and my grandfather, there've only been two people in my life who have impacted me like this Pete Seeger is one, and I'm honored to say that Pete Seeger. And I became friends toward the end of his life, and Dan Ellsberg being the other I'm, I'm a better person because I've had Dan Ellsberg in my life. And, you know, even though he's not going to be with us for too terribly much longer, we're lucky in that we have his books, we have his speeches, and we have the testimony from so many people whose lives he impacted to fall back on. Like I say, not just I feel that I'm a better person having known him, but I think all of us are better people having been touched by him. So thanks for inviting me. I'm really thrilled that I got the chance to say something. Thank you. Thank you so much, John. And yeah, thank you for highlighting how much just light that Dan Ellsberg is brought to this situation. So if you hear all the honking I live in Chicago, and there's a Cubs game so I really recommend everyone on Dan Ellsberg's Twitter he posted this letter that he wrote to his movement friends originally and then it was getting circulated so he posted for everyone. This letter he wrote about his life, and how he's making this transition and just his reflections it's a very very beautiful letter. He posted on this Twitter and I think it's been published elsewhere, but I really really recommend checking that out. And our third panelist is here with us Gabriel Shipton, Gabriel's a film producer and the brother of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, his feature link documentary entitled Ithaca premiered at the Sydney Film Festival and open for general release in January of 2022. It follows the work of his father John Shipton and fighting for Julian's release. And with that I will pass it to Gabriel. Thanks for being here with us. Thank you. Thanks for having me I mean it's an honor to be amongst, you know, John and Jesslyn speaking about this great Titan of the US a hero to many, and also a thorn in the side to, you know, the military industrial complex and those who, those who we want to hide, you know what the government is doing in our names. I haven't known Dan probably as long as John or Jesslyn but I can really echo the similar stories that they have his, you know, undying and and committed support for truth tellers for whistleblowers and for people like Julian to, you know, imprisoned unjustly for publishing the truth. Now, Dan was the last person I believe to beat an espionage act charge. It was almost 50 years ago and Julian is charged under the same espionage act is charged with 17 charges under the espionage act for sourcing and publishing classified information leaks related to the Chelsea Manning League so that's the war logs, the Iraq war diaries, the diplomatic cable set of State Department diplomatic cables as well as Guantanamo by detainee files and for publishing that information Julian faces 175 years maximum sentence if he if he is convicted. Now, you know, Dan is still a, a very much still a troublemaker in every sense last June. He did an interview with BBC hardcore, which is a quite a large program in the United Kingdom, where he admitted that Julian had given him an exact backup of the Chelsea Manning Leaks. The exact leaks that Julian is now being pursued for publishing. He had given an entire backup to Daniel Ellsberg. And then went on BBC hard talk and said, you know, I should be charged as well you should be if you're charging Julian Assange under the espionage act for possessing this material. Then you should be charging me so even even to this day Dan is, you know, out there causing trouble. And I hope that, you know, I'm sure he's got something planned. He's going to go out with a bang. I'm definitely sure about that. If we've learned anything from, you know, his brilliant, his brilliant life that he has led. I met Dan at his house in 2021. My father, and I went to visit him there and, you know, he was very generous with his time and sat with us for a few hours. I was during the COVID period. So, you know, at great risk to himself in his, in his, you know, delicate old age, but he was very generous to his time. And I think one interesting thing he said, or that I asked him about his case, you know, about his case, his espionage case and then and how he was being pursued for the pen for leaking the Pentagon papers. People often talk about Julian's case the need for a face saver for the government or for the for the DOJ or the National Security State that is pursuing Julian. And I asked Dan, you know, what was the face saver in your case? You know, how did, what was the face saver that, you know, let the government sort of slip out of your prosecution? And Dan looked at me confused. And he said, well, you know, what are you talking about? You know, Nixon was impeached. And what he meant was that the plumbers who, you know, who had spied on Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist, which led to his, his case being thrown out of court, ended up part of Nixon's impeachment. And we can really look at similarities, the similarities in Julian's case, in the sense that during the Trump administration under under CIA director Mike Pompeo. There was an unprecedented statement by Pompeo that he declared WikiLeaks, a non state hostile intelligence service and what that meant was that the CIA could use clandestine operations to pursue WikiLeaks. And similarly, what like operations they would use against say the, you know, the Iranian secret service or the Russian FSB. And so what that meant was that the CIA then co opted the security company that was supposed to be protecting Julian in the Ecuadorian embassy Julian spent seven and a half years in the Ecuadorian embassy. He spent four years in there in 2019 and put in Bill Marsh maximum security prison where he remains to this day for years. You spent four years there on the 11th of April. But during his time in the Ecuadorian embassy, this clandestine operation began where you see global this security company began spying on Julian. They updated all the cameras in the embassy to high definition cameras. They placed microphones all throughout the embassy to record Julian's conversations, his legally privileged conversations with his lawyers and with his doctors. And what we later found out was that there were also plots to kidnap Julian that were circulating within the CIA that made it all the way to the Trump White House. And these plots to kidnap Julian were met with, you know, there's some reporting about this, some Yahoo News reporters did a very, very long investigation, 6000 word piece that it was nominated for some journalism prizes. And they reported that these plots to kidnap Julian were discussed at the highest levels discussed with the DOJ. And they reported that the DOJ responded to the Pompeo CIA that you what are you going to do when you kidnap Julian. Where are you going to take him we don't have any charges. Just wait a bit and we'll bring some charges and then you can get him out of the embassy. And so we can see this sort of judicial kidnapping that was put in place to take Julian from the embassy, and then keep him in prison, sort of indefinitely now, while he awaits or fights his extradition to the USA. But this sort of corruption of these state entities like the CIA and the Department of Justice to pursue what is a political persecution is sort of mirrored in Daniel Ellsberg's case and really went to the highest level of the US government in the Trump administration. So I expect that there will be some similar consequences. Well, you know, hopefully there will be some similar consequences that were mirrored in Daniel Ellsberg's case, as in Julian's case, if it ever gets to that level. But yeah, thank you very much for inviting me and I hope, you know, so much admiration for Dan and all the support that he's given Julian over the years. He is a great example to whistleblowers everywhere. And I think that's very important that he is celebrated in his life and and continuing just to set an example really because what's going on in the world. And we wouldn't know much without without these courageous people without these truth and if we don't celebrate them if we don't protect them, then they won't come forward. Thank you. Thank you Gabriel. There's a lot of people in the chat to sending love to your family. I'll join in person. I just wanted to read really quickly just portions of Daniel Ellsberg's letter that he wrote just because I think it was really compelling I brought it up earlier. Didn't want to leave people hanging and then we have a really large chunk of time, more than planned for questions which is really awesome. I'm not usually how it goes which is great. So this is just a short excerpt of his letter. When I copied the Pentagon Papers in 1969 I had every reason to think I would be spending the rest of my life behind bars. It was a fate I would have gladly accepted if it meant hastening the end of the Vietnam War, unlikely as that seemed and was yet in the end that action in ways I could not have foreseen due to Nixon's illegal responses did have an impact on shortening the war. In addition, thanks to Nixon's crimes I was spared the imprisonment I expected and I was able to spend less the last 50 years with my wife Patricia and my family and with you, my friends. I was able to devote those years doing everything I could think of to alert the world to the perils of nuclear war and wrongful interventions. As I look back on the last 60 years of my life, I think there is no greater cause to which I could have dedicated my efforts. In the last 40 years, we have known that nuclear war between the US and Russia would mean a nuclear winter. I'm happy to know that millions of people have the wisdom dedication and moral courage to carry on with these causes, and to work unceasingly for the survival of our planet and its creatures. And like john said he did sign off that letter with love Dan so with that will move to questions I'm going to give people more time to put them in the q amp a section. I did get your question from the chat so that will be answered. So I'm going to give people a couple minutes and in the meantime I'd like to ask questions to the panelists and I think maybe all three of you could answer. What sort of compels whistleblowers you know whether it's like you john or Daniel Hale or Julian Assange, or Daniel Ellsberg to make that decision to leak it as opposed to just see what they saw and hold it back from the public. You know, you do risk years and years and some case over 100 years in prison for leaking these things so what sort of compelled either your clients or you or your family members to make that decision and I'll start with Jess, and then john and then Gabriel. For me, it was a crisis of conscience, and I literally was could not sleep at night, knowing that we had tortured someone and that he was going to be like our first prosecution in the war on terrorism and that we had not only tortured him but covered that up. And we're concealing it from the court and so for me, it was just choosing my conscience over my career so I could live with myself and be able to look at myself in the mirror and, you know, go to bed with a clean conscience. I think it was something about like some super love for John Walker Lind or into being anti Ashcroft or anything like that it was more having a conscience and acting on it. I don't think it was some huge profound act of moral courage it was just being able to live with myself. I, I never considered myself to be a whistleblower just had to tell me that I was a whistleblower in our very first meeting. And I said to her, as I was walking out of her office I said listen I really want to thank you for for taking my case because I know that you only represent whistleblowers and I'm not a whistleblower. And she said you're the poster boy for whistleblowing. And I said no, I just said something. And she had to explain it to me that that's sort of, you know, that's what whistleblowing is. Boy, where do you even begin. One of the things that I learned early on in the process and again I learned this through Jess. And through an Israeli journalist who has written about whistleblowers a guy by the name of al press is that whistleblowers have an unusually highly defined sense of right and wrong. It's more highly defined than among the general public. And I think Tom Drake would agree with me. I'm, I never really gave serious thought to not saying something. You know when Dan talks about about just accepting that he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison. It just never occurred to me that maybe I shouldn't say anything on the off chance that I might spend 45 years in prison which is what the government was originally seeking in my case. There's just inside your head there's just too much going on telling you you've got to say something. And I actually waited in my case for somebody else to say something. And when nobody did I thought well, they're not going to do it so I guess I have to. Well, I mean, I come, I mean, I come, you know, I don't have this experience that Jess or John have but for me and all the people that I've met and all the whistleblowers that I've met advocating for Julian, including, you know, Daniel Hale, who just spoke about earlier. I think something exists inside which is a yearning for justice and a revulsion of injustice. And to me the whistleblowers that I meet and have this sort of fearlessness and they're they're courageous in a in a in a sort of sense and that that to me is really the overriding the overriding characteristic that that I found amongst whistleblowers is that they're fearless and that they're courageous but I think this this sense of right and wrong exists in inside inside all of us and what I think part of Julian's work and the work of WikiLeaks was really how do we how do we protect whistleblowers you know how do we protect journalists and and and protect whistleblowers in a digital age and how do we by protecting them how do we encourage other people to become whistleblowers and I think it's so important what what getting together in forums like this to really celebrate to celebrate whistleblowers and to really talk about their courage, but also you know, have the tools to be able to to protect themselves so that so that they can whistleblower without the fear of of these, you know, huge tolls on their lives. And I think that's very important as well. Thank you. Just letting attendees know john had to hop off to go on to go on Katie helpers podcast which you should all check out it's pretty good. So I have a question. Robert s house Dan Ellsberg doing today. I don't know if the panelists have an answer to this, but I heard that he was doing it yet a good day today. I don't know if you two have heard anything but that's what I've heard days of today. So, um, there we go is Robert's question. And then Thomas Drake asked, What do the panelists feel is the greatest single legacy that Dan Ellsberg is leaving for us to carry on. That's a loaded one. Sorry to drive people, but it's a good question. Oh, Jess, you're muted. Sorry about that. Um, Dan Ellsberg always said, Don't do what I did. Don't wait. Blow the whistle earlier, rather than later. If I blown the whistle earlier, think of how much carnage could have been prevented. I think a lot of whistleblowers tend to wait or not blow the whistle at all because they see what happens and they have fears about what's going to happen. So to me that was like a big piece of wisdom that Dan always imparted like blow the whistle sooner rather than later and trust your trust your judgment. I mean, the government's going to lie and say whatever it's going to say, but like trust your own judgment and don't wait. So that was the biggest takeaway for me. To me, Dan's legacy is just the, you know, his passion for life and really the way he has lived his life and shown that, you know, for many years he worked inside the military industrial complex. You know, I think he was in his 40s when, when the Pentagon papers were leaked. And so that really, even after this leak, a life for leakers and for whistleblowers, people of principle, you don't have to, you know, exist within these organizations or, you know, these murderous regimes that there is, you know, you don't just blow the whistle and that's it. You know, you have a legacy and you have a life and really his, his life after the Pentagon papers is a testament to that and a real example to every other whistleblower that, you know, you might go through some hard times, but it's worth it. And, and, you know, he's now in his 90s and then constantly celebrated and supporting whistleblowers all over the world. I think that that really is, to me, is part of his legacy is is all the whistleblowers that have followed him. You know, I think he's almost responsible for a lot of them. You know, as John said, he was always a hero to John so you could really, you know, blame Daniel Ellsberg for a lot of a lot of the whistleblowers that exist today and to me that is such an incredible, an incredible legacy. Thank you. We have a question in the chat about if there's any kind of regulation protecting whistleblowers from going to prison, like anywhere in the world that could be implemented here like if there's any that already exist. And maybe I don't know if Jesslyn would know the answer to that. Yeah, our country is the only country that, I mean their UK has an official secrets act, which is kind of like our espionage act, but most countries don't have the concept of a whistleblower. They may have a different word for it, but a lot of countries don't even have that concept it's a very American concept and a very democratic concept. So, no, there's not. I can't think of like model legislation US has different people who put forth different people who are members of Congress, who have, who have put forth including defending rights and descent foundation and representative and people who put forth legislation to amend the espionage act. But in terms, I mean really was whistleblowing is something that should be protected and technically is protected by law, but the law protecting whistleblowers has no enforcement mechanism so when the government comes down on you with a ton of bricks. There's really nothing you can do as a whistleblower to stop that. And that's what we need we need a public interest defense for people who blow the whistle. Thank you, Jess. We also have someone asking specifically about Julian asking. There's only six Congress people that signed the letter to the Justice Department to drop the charges against Julian Assange. Do you think the letter still made an impact or anything else to give us hope for Julian. Yeah, yeah, I certainly do. I mean there was seven, seven in total. So, that is, it's a big mean, and it's a base of support now that people are on the record of supporting Julian's freedom and calling for this unprecedented use of the espionage act against Julian Assange to be dropped by the Garland Department of Justice. So, yeah, I definitely think it's, it's made an impact. You know, it will just grow and grow I think the support in Congress now we've got. This is a group of progressive, progressive Congress people. Who's Rashida to live who led the letter, Greg Cesar from Texas. Corby Bush, Mal Bowman, Alexandria, Casio Cortez, as well as ill Hanoma so that's a real group within within the progressive caucus that are calling for this. You know, it's been some vocal support on the other side of the aisle as well amongst people like, you know, Thomas Massey representative Roe Conner as well has spoken out against against this as well so I think, you know what Jesse was talking about before was this, you know really reform of the espionage act and is really key to protecting whistleblowers, the public interest defense, and protecting publishing, carving out publishing from from the espionage act as well would be a key reform and it's has bipartisan support. You know, Thomas Massey and Roe Conner had a had a had a espionage act reform bill. I think that they were co sponsoring October last year. So really I think there is a growing a growing group within Congress who not only calling for Julian's freedom but also calling for reform of the espionage. Thank you. I think we have one more question. And then we can wrap it up sort of early unless we get any more but why did none of the Republicans who have spoken out about a previously support the most recent letter. It's a Democrat focus letter because of, you know, it's a Democratic administration so it was a focus on on the Democratic support which I think, you know, would have a greatest impact but I'm looking forward to another letter, perhaps a bipartisan one. I think that would be very impactful as well. I also mentioned that I think this whole issue is also getting will be further examined given now that President Biden and former President Trump and Vice President Pence, all have recently been found to have classified information that they shouldn't have been laying around private property unsecured and part of that as a function of overclassification, but none of them are being charged under the espionage act nor should they be. Because again, you know, unless you are actually intending to sell such information to a hostile foreign nation or use it to harm the United States. People should not be facing prosecution using this law so you know in a way what's going on in current events is hopefully also going to shine a light or be an impetus behind some reforms. Okay, one more question actually the regular media, mainly parrots the government's position what media covers more of the truth about whistleblowers or educates the public more we got like kind of two of those questions one was asked by Karen and one by Sarah, I think democracy now, I think, I mean alternative liberal media Kevin Gestola has certainly done a lot of writing about these whistleblower cases that no one has covered. He's done that with shadow proof chip Gibbons that defending rights and descent foundation has also been covering these cases and issues but yeah the mainstream media is is not going to cover it. Unlike the crazy just worldwide fascination with Snowden it's generally very hard to get media traction on these stories and that's by design the government has a huge megaphone and the mainstream media wants to keep its contacts in the and so doesn't want to be too harsh about that. So we really is like incumbent and heavy lift for but the best reporting is occurring in alternative media and people the grassroots level, who are making waves and keeping these issues shouting from the rooftops like yeah they can hide you away in prison but you know Daniel hail Julian Assange people are still suffering from this reality winner is still under many restrictions, even though she's technically free she's still under all sorts of very heavy handed restrictions and again that's by design punishment by process trying to trip you up. They'll do anything to throw you back in. They want you to fail. You know and john Kiriakou has written eloquently about that also. Okay, we all want to add any media sources. Yeah, I think some of those are some great ones that Jesslyn was was citing about whistleblowing and you know the independent media these days is is gaining audience and really I think the you know we can just have to look at the most recent discord leaks and and how the you know how the New York Times and places like Bellingcat were were talking about you know how they identified whistleblowers and how they sought out whistleblowers and identified their information and and that really is says to us that you know these news organizations, these the news media has sort of lost their way in that sense. They're no longer protecting sources, you know they're doing the job of the FBI and hunting them down so I think that's a big sign to everybody that if they really want to get information about whistleblowing or whistleblowers or people like Daniel Ellsberg or John Kiriakou or Jesslyn and there and the information that they expose, then the independent media is is the place to go. You know, Sy Hirsch Matai be those sorts of people as well, who are who are doing really good reporting. Thank you both. I want to thank Gabriel and Jesslyn and also John Kiriakou for joining us for this webinar today. We will get it wrapped up now but it will be up on our YouTube if you ever want to revisit it or share it please do. This was to honor the great Daniel Ellsberg and I just want to highlight all the amazing stories that were shared with us today by all three of our panelists and also just so many people in the chat had personal stories with Dan Ellsberg which I think just speaks to how ingrained he made himself in the anti-war movement after being a whistleblower. He didn't just whistleblow and debout on us he stayed with us for his literally his entire life and we are standing on the shoulders of giants and I hope that we can take what Dan has given us in his very long life of anti-war work, take it with us, take his confidence and competence and honestly care as well. You know, he spent so much time caring for people and that's sort of the foundation of anti-war work is caring about people not just here, not just yourselves, not just people you know but everywhere in the world. So Dan we love you if you're listening and I'll make sure to send it to him as well if he wasn't able to tune in today but thank you to all of our speakers. You can support current whistleblowers today also I will say that you could go to code pink.org slash Daniel Hale and you can write to him or sign his commutation petition. And I don't know, Gabriel is there any way that we could support Julian in the next few days. Yeah, if you go to sansdefense.org, you can join the mailing list there and find out what actions are taking place I think there's some things play and plan for World Press Freedom Day so there should be some actions taking place around the United States, sansdefense.org. Yes, thank you. Oh yeah, that reminds me could pink as a World Press Freedom Day and Kevin Gasola's extra speaking at it on May 3rd so that's exciting. Jess Lynn, do you want to wrap up with anything. I mean you can keep we have updates regularly on our website whisper.exposefacts.org. You can get updates on what's going on with Daniel there and see what other kinds of work that we're doing. All of these organizations that have been mentioned needs support we're all struggling and fighting, you know and doing so with very thin budgets and and and meager meager armies compared to the the kinds of people that were that were up against so it's a collective effort. Thank you Danica and could pink for organizing this and for having the back of so many whistleblowers over the years. And you know that's kind of what I take away from this. I mean it really does take a village and we're this very particularized sliver of a village so I'm glad to be in solidarity with all of you. Thank you. So thanks to our panelists thanks to everyone you tuned in. Feel free to share this all over and please stay involved in anti war work so you can take what whistleblowers have given us and turn it into the change that they so very wanted to see. Hope you all have a great evening and I will talk to you all soon. Thank you.