 Hi all draw century. Welcome to the 29th meeting in 2017 of the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee. Can I remind everyone present to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent? No apologies have been received. We are going to move to the agenda item 1, the 5th recording session on the island Scotland build. I will give two panels this morning. is with us this morning, and I'd like to welcome Camille Dressler, chair of the Scottish Islands Federation, Rachel Hunter, the area manager of Shetland, Highlands and Islands Enterprise, David Richardson, the development manager of Highlands and Islands and the Federation of Small Businesses, and Fraser Greve, the regional director of Highlands and Islands, Scottish Council for Development and Industry. We'll be going through a series of questions for those of you that haven't done this before. You don't need to push anything on your panels in front of you. The sound gentleman will pick you up when you want to speak and will automatically activate your microphone. If you do want to come in on a question, just try and look at me and I'll bring you in. The secret is then not to do as some people do is to continue to speak and look in the opposite direction, because if you are going on a bit long I might want to reduce you and I will catch your eye to ask you to come to an end. We're going to move on with the first question and the first questions this morning are going to come from Rhoda. Thank you. Good morning. Can I ask if the bill meets with your expectations and indeed your aspirations? I'd like to head off on that. Camille, would you like to come? Very much so. I think we are delighted that the islands will be considered in that way and that island proofing to us is as important as rural proofing. We have some slight concern about rural proofing because we don't think it's not a way that it's been done so well and we would like island proofing to be done as best as possible and it's a concept that's absolutely essential for the wellbeing of the islands in our opinion. Rachel, would you like to come in on that? From the island's island's enterprise point of view we welcome the island's bill. As you're aware the clues and the title were ambitious for the islands and the islands across the region and we think that this bill could help to harness the natural resources on the islands to influence greater innovation and enterprise and also to sustain and enhance communities within these islands. Fraser, you would? I think for us there are some really welcome things, particularly the development of an island plan and to make sure that that's long-term enough to enable the economic potential of the islands to be realised. In many ways island proofing shouldn't be necessary, it should be incumbent on all public bodies and all legislation to consider how it impacts on every part of the country anyway but it's really important to consider where solutions will be different for island communities, which are essentially remote communities attached to other remote communities and the particular amplification of the the challenges they face as a result. Okay David, I'm not going to leave you out. Would you like to say anything or would you be happy that everyone's reflected your views? No, I think I mean broadly speaking yes we think the bill is a good idea. To better understand the aspirations and the issues faced by island businesses we surveyed right across all islands and we got some very interesting results. So yes by definition islands are bodies of land in the middle of the sea so they are different but also as I think maybe Fraser slightly alluded to remote areas of the mainland are also got same sort of issues so we tried to find out what the differences were and we think there is a case for an island bill. Okay Stuart, do you want to come in before I bring red back in? Just Fraser made a particular reference to island proofing and public bodies should what we're trying to do have any implications for private bodies. So it's an interesting one I think. There's certainly issues around the delivery of some services so for instance there's been issues around delivery charging and there's issues around broadband provision and the service level that people get in islands. I think part of that should be looked at as part of the island plan what can be done to not help maintain the islands as the rest of the economy grows but actually what can be done to transform them to really utilise their assets and strengths and put them ahead where they can be so it's not a catch-up game as is often the case with remote and rural areas but actually going what are your unique assets and strengths and how do we amplify those so that we're not comparing like for like that we're actually enabling islands to to progress at a faster pace where where they have the strength to do so. Okay Rhedda, would you like to sorry Camille sorry I'll let you in and then bring Redrin. Just at one little point I think that's quite important in the Lisbon Treaty there's an article 174 which recognises the permanent geographical constraints of islands, mountainous regions and sparsely populated areas. We've made the representation to the Scottish Parliament on this issue some years ago and I would like us to be clear that it's a very important principle that islands have got these particular geographical constraints that will never go away because you won't be able to build a bridge to every islands so this is what makes so makes it so important to have an island bell. Just in balance before I bring Rhedda back we have heard in the evidence session that there are rural communities who feel as remote as islands although they're not islands they still might need ferries to get from A to B so I mean I think I think the problems are faced by many. Rhedda, do you want to come back in on that? Yes I'm I'm interested to know whether you feel that it'll empower islands or will it just change people's attitudes on how they legislate and deal with islands in public bodies. Do you think there'll be more co-production or that people will think that the way they treat islands should be different or will islands actually be allowed to start making decisions for themselves? If we go back to the principles that were expressed in the Scottish Rural Parliament for instance of having a holistic and proactive approach to development what the view that we have is that it should be top lead but very much bottom fed. If this legislation allows the islanders, the communities that live on the island to inform the policies and comment on them and have a way to make them more performing better I think that will lead to a greater well-being in the islands generally. Does anyone else want to come in? Rachel? I'm just thinking because I am from Shetland, thinking about the example of the the ZCC Act and around Shetland waters and you know no development can take place you know within 12 miles without a works license and what this does is that local powers it gives the Shetland community a basis for negotiation and I think that's really important so that the Shetland community feel empowered that they have influence over what happens in their waters and I think that if you if you look at the creation of a marine licensing scheme that seems to be broadly welcomed by other island and coastal communities across the region. Right, did you want to follow up on that or will we move on to the next bit? Well really do you think there is sufficient in the bill to empower this is really what I'm trying to get at do we need to strengthen the bill to create more empowerment or is there enough in there? Difficult question who'd like to to go with that. Rachel you almost looked so you were about to. Well I think this we need to look at um I suppose other legislation that's you know that's coming to force such as the community empowerment act you know that's section 2 in December 2016 so you know again that is revolutionising community plan and ensuring that communities are engaged in developing locality plans and local outcome improvement plans. I think it's difficult I don't have a crystal ball so I don't know how it's going to impact in the future but I certainly think you know through island proofing and island impact assessments there will be more thought and consideration to island issues and challenges and also through the development national islands plan will help focus public bodies on island needs and challenges. Fraser I don't know if you want to come in could I just say to the witnesses could you give me a pretty good steering and nod of the head if you want to come in because I look at you and some of you are looking away as if you don't want to answer so a bit of a steer would be help Fraser would you would you like to come in on that yeah I mean I think um one of the the challenges and where where the success or failure of the bill will be it will weigh around engagement it won't work if it's a a tick box um at the end of a form just have you have you considered the island it has to be really looking at is this the right solution is there a better way of delivering it are we the right body to deliver it or is it better being delivered locally and I think um part of that won't come out until the the development of the the island plan and how that looks but I think uh from a starting point what this does is it it sets the discussion going and I think that's always always a helpful okay I'm going to bring David in and then move on to some questions from John Finnie if I made David yeah I think our point we believe that small small air businesses should be at the centre of the thinking because they are the ones that are going to drive the economy forward and help communities and islands achieve their full potentials um and it's how that takes place and there should be more consultation and discussion not tick box but proper discussion when things have been put through so when it comes to government when it comes to public agencies when it comes to communities they should be thinking what's right for the business community here because that ultimately everything stems from that John I'm Finnie would you like to come in with your questions please yes thanks good morning panel um we've already received a lot of views about what should be in the bill what um should be in the plan or could be in the plan I wonder with regard to differing labour markets and particularly the labour markets between the mainland and the islands and perhaps even within island groupings do you think the bill has sufficient cognisant taken sufficient cognisants off that who'd like to head off on that uh David I'll let you come in there what I can say is that our our survey showed that of um those businesses that employ staff 38% are being held back at the moment because they can't find sufficiently skilled staff it's a very real issue there we also know that um 41% of businesses in the highlands employ at least one person from the EU um that presumably continues to the islands as well so staffing is a critical issue low unemployment thank goodness but we've got low unemployment um there's lack of housing so it's difficult to import staff um so staffing is is is a really important issue um now does the bill meet the needs I'm not sure but they need to be addressed um Rachel yeah I concur with David's point about staff in island communities and um I suppose another issue that that we find that businesses face in in island communities is is one of succession as well I mean obviously we want you know younger people to come in and and um be employed by businesses but who's actually going to lead these businesses in the future we see with an ageing demographic and island populations are aging faster than the Scottish average so you know a particular challenge in a particular area of work that that high is involved in is to support businesses with succession leadership management and development in the future phrase that you said you'd like to come in and then come in and I'll bring you in for me yeah I mean I think there's a a number of things I mean there is a a real a real issue over access to labour about talent upskilling the workforce because many small businesses don't need one person to do one job they need one person to do three or four um and how do we make sure that those skills are available uh locally um there's a real difficulty around average wages being lower than the the national average and businesses have to take that on board and do far more um to to improve their offer um they're simply not going to be able to attract people if they're not able to pay wages that people can afford to live on um and there are there are real issues around access to housing public transport in uh in island communities um there is a a small travel to work area for for many businesses in these areas and it's almost impossible to get there without a private car um so what do we do around those those infrastructure points um and I think uh the the challenge is that these are our problems not just facing island communities but across the piece um we we thankfully have very low unemployment um but very high underemployment um and we need to do a lot more to to improve that and address that hi did a a business survey recently that showed huge business optimism um of 78 percent um but yet less than 50 percent 50 percent of those those businesses were were planning to invest over the next year if businesses can't invest when they're feeling optimistic how do we how do we address that and how do we help them improve their profitability to to drive up the wages that will help sustain and attract more people into the island communities Camilla yeah John you come in and then Camilla I will bring you in I've got gail wants to come in and I'd like to sort of tackle these there's a few questions here so John's our recurring theme is about what the purpose of the bill is would you see phrase of that as being a purpose of the bill to address these particular issues or is that more for the plan in many ways it's more for the plan what the for us what the the bill does is it it puts an onus on the consideration of of the island's needs and trying to to get the thinking to actually take place and it's different thinking the solutions for island communities are very different there in many places there isn't a a private sector housing developer that's all of a sudden going to move in and build the housing to to meet their needs because the housing to meet their needs is two houses there three houses there and so how do we how do we help shape and develop this so for us the the island bill is around putting that onus on bodies to to consider the needs of the islands and and the development of a plan to help bring in solutions that are appropriate for each of the island communities. Camille I'll bring you in now and then back to John. If you consider the issue of competitive tendering for instance if you need to change an electric bulb in an NHS surgery in Barra do you think that the the NHS will call on an electrician in Barra? No they have to bring their competitive tenders which generally are based in Glasgow or somewhere else this is ridiculous this is one of the things that we would like the island bill to change we would like we would like also this focus to be on utilities and other commercial bodies to to make sure that they understand the issues of islands like of gem like you know all the issues of fuel cost of of renewables and broadband all all these things have got a massive influence on our economies and that's where we feel that the island bill could be very very useful getting these bodies to understand how the delivery of services have to be island proofed. John. I have a couple of questions together I'm conscious thank you I wonder if the panel's view is that the bill will support economic growth and with regard to the consultation do you think there's been sufficient engagement with small and micro businesses indeed with the self-employed on this issue? David that sort of falls in your domain slightly. I think it will help but not in the past it has not been enough consultation needs to be far more the strategic objective you like that came out for our research is that what people want to see next 10 20 years the priority is retaining more young people and make list of highs heart and also attracting young families to move in because only by that means looking at the last last couple of censuses with the ageing population and the declining in some areas population the only way to to ensure succession everything else is to encourage new blood that that's the primary aim should be the primary aim of the bill and to do that you have to tackle the broadband issues you have to tackle all the issues that have just been raised. Camille would you like to come in on that? I think that's what is essential there's been so much frustration in the the big companies not understanding the islands and you could say that the maybe the government hasn't understood the island either look at the issue with broadband you know the the tender for delivery of broadband completely ignored the the islands and in many cases we've had to create our own broadband community businesses so I think that it's got to be done across the board but the devil is in the detail how is it going to be done and I've just come back from the European rural parliament in in Holland and there was a very good example of Finland which has a rural policy board where which brings together policymakers and and people from a wide section of the population including NGOs and I think that would be really useful to to look at as a model of how the the bill is actually going to be implemented because one of our frustration as an NGO as a grassroots led organisation is that we never get a seat at a table so how are we going to bring the voices of small communities the voices of our members how are we going to bring those to the table that's a question for you. Okay I'm going to bring Rachel in and then I'm going to move on to the next section if I may Rachel. Just a consultation I mean high other members of the panel have alluded we do a six monthly high business panel survey and you know that's a thousand businesses across the the region but it's also important to note that the way Highlands and Islands Enterprise operates we account manage businesses and communities right across the region and we account manage 233 businesses and community enterprises on islands which is actually 40 percent of our portfolio if you think that you know there are only 20 percent of the population in the Highlands and Islands based on islands but we we actually in terms of our portfolio what we manage it's 40 percent so we disproportionately account manage a very high number of businesses and communities on islands and we have very close relationship with these businesses and community enterprises and what they tell us is that the problems and the challenges that are constrained in growth are very much the same wherever you go it's about you know timely affordable reliable transport infrastructure it's about you know superfast broadband which would enhance digital and mobile connectivity and it's what already other panel members have said is is access to young people to help you know attract and retain young people in the islands and and one of the key barriers is is housing and High has just completed a survey looking at the housing market in in the Highlands and Islands and and it's interesting to note that there is a high proportion of young people what we will call young and stock which basically means that their their 26 are over they are that I suppose they are they're in full-time employment or in or they're self-employed but they're not the main householder or the spouse of the main householder they are they're living with family or others but they they are the homemakers and they you would expect them to be creating the households of the future but they don't have the opportunity to do that because of lack of housing in their area so there is a high proportion of you know in the top 12 areas the hotspots for these young and stock individuals a high number are in the islands areas okay that that actually there are other members that want to come in but I think that's a good place to leave that just at the moment so now I'm going to move on and get John to to ask a question okay thanks convener um so the islands plan has been mentioned already so that's the what I wanted to ask about um now the bill basically only says there's going to be a plan and it gives a bit of timescale and a bit of consultation but there's not much detail so three parts firstly are you comfortable with the concept of an islands plan is that a good idea secondly should there be more in the bill about the islands plan and what the content of the islands plan might be or are you happy to leave the bill as it is with no detail whatsoever and finally um what about the timetable the fact that it would have to be laid within 12 months of the legislation are you comfortable with that thank you john for difficult questions I expect you all have an opinion on those three things so I'm going to start on my right and work to my left so Camille that means your first would you like to go on that I think that the idea of a plan is is always good but the plan must be fairly general not too prescriptive because you don't want it to be a straight jacket so you need to have in that plan something that to our mind would look very much like the smart island initiative that we have signed posted in our submission which basically shows how the islands can be leader in the low carbon revolution and a leader in sustainability if you allow them to be and um underpinning these two two principles there's a lot of things that do um the right from that and but the whole point is is to give enough um flexibility in the plan so that it can be responsive and it can be modified in the bill would you put that the in the bill that the plan must include sustainability or would you leave the bill as it is oh sustainability must be the underpinning principle of the plan of course but would you say that in the bill well I think it would be absolutely essential right I'm not sure for understanding each other it's essential to be in the plan well the concept of sustainability has to underpin the plan and therefore if it does it needs to be put in the bell okay right I've got your thank you okay and sorry the the timing I think was was the other function do you think a year's enough time to draw this up it's uh if the consultation is done in a in a proper and effective manner I don't see the problem but it again it's in a detail how is the consultation going to be if you have um a kind of like rural parliaments situation where the grassroots and community organisations are consulted I don't think it would be a problem okay I mean just just before I moved to Rachel I mean I think on the evidence sessions that we've heard on the various islands because just to remind people we've been to Orkney we've been to Mal and we've been to the western Isles it appeared that there was a certain amount of consultation and pre-planning that had gone on but some of the islands may not be at that advanced stage and I think that's John is that the one of your concerns I'm not sure I'm concerned about it but let's hear all the panel and then might come back after that right Rachel yeah well in terms of HIE then we you know support the concept of an island's plan you know in terms of what we we think the focus should be on on the outcomes and not activities and that there should be a clear vision and ambition in the plan looking you know island should have a say in what they want their islands to look like in five to ten years time and also the plan should you know track key indicators and metrics so that actually demonstrates that progress is being made and I think you know the the issues around sustainability I mean I think you know all islands that's what they're striving for is economic sustainable economic growth and so certainly that should underpin the the the premise of the plan I also think that the there has been a lot of work in terms of engagement through the development of community local outcome improvement plans and locality plans in island areas and we should make sure that the there's due cognisance of this the the work that's already been done and in terms of a year is a year enough and you know is a challenging geography and that you know a lot of voices want to be heard and you know possibly it depends on which resources is put to it whether it could be done in a year but I think it will be challenging yeah yeah I think the plan is right I think something that links policy and strategies a more coordinated approach is good I think potentially it's going to be useful for taking on sort of identifying blockages in the current system national system and potentially solutions to that but again it mustn't be prescriptive it's interesting in keep referring to our survey but in our survey we grouped islands by Shetland-Otney you know Argyll and so on and there are big differences there in the answers or there are differences between different islands one size won't necessarily fit all nationally and it won't necessarily fit all in the islands there has to be local determination and I think it's really important keep going back to this point but really important that businesses are consulted as an organisation we survey we can say x% say this and y% say that but that should be supported by real life case studies where people are actually going out and talking to businesses and actually getting into the nitty gritty you know with them really important so can I take it from what you're saying that you're quite happy with this kind of very just general that there will be a plan you don't feel it should be too prescriptive in the bill I don't think so no I think it's a general a plan that reads about linking policies and strategies between different organisations and it's ensuring that organisations like high for instance then that there'll be that linking of strategies should that be should that be said in the bill yes about the plan yes and the bill should be written in such a way that for example high who might have a priority is is set to it is is export an export is the right strategy for the highlands and islands as a whole but it might be on some islands business survival continuity is much more important than exporting a widget to somewhere else so we wouldn't do exports in the bill no but it must enable these organisations to have that flexibility so that they have different approaches to different islands and things okay Fraser and Fraser sorry although you're last I'll give you a chance to be first if the short the short answer would be appreciated just on that I concise as I can I mean I think the development of a plan is very welcome I think a year is is absolutely sufficient time I mean it's not a document that at the end of that period that's it put it on the shelf it has to evolve and what the the plan for me really is about is saying we're putting a duty on people to think about the needs of the islands and spending a year developing a plan and saying this is our plan and as you're considering the islands this is what you have to do to to meet it I think we need to touch on on on metrics and all that and I think there there absolutely has to be measurables in it and but I think there is a always a danger that the islands get lost in spreadsheets and losing a doctor from one island could be losing its entire health service and I think it's really important particularly for these isolated and island communities to think about the people and how do we how do we develop continuity how do we make sure that there will be replacements for these professionals and to really plan for the long term as well as having the the short term actions so should the bill should the bill say that the plan must deal with health or do we just assume that the plan will deal with health I think for me the the sustainability of island communities relies on on health on housing on transport on skills on all of these things and I think in order to to develop a planet it will naturally have to consider all of these these aspects anyway so I don't particularly feel a need to to have it in the bill so you wouldn't even put sustainability or population in the bill if we didn't think about the sustainability of the island I don't think the bill would be necessary so I suppose for me I'm not ready to being entirely mentioned because the whole purpose of the the bill and of looking at this area is around the sustainability of the island okay I'm Camill you will come back in at a later stage because I'd like to bring Gail in because there's a few more questions on this particular thing so you will get a chance to come in in a minute Gail sorry thank you good morning panel how do you think the national island plan could address some of the challenges faced by businesses on the island and particularly we talked about depopulation and that moved on to housing if the plan addresses housing how far into that do you think it should go because you've got access to land you've got price of land you've got the planning system various factors about you know why affordable or even housing full stop is not available and I was particularly taken by the young and stuck that you were talking about Rachel that's really interesting we also heard about the cost of building houses getting materials over to the islands can be at least 40 percent higher than it is on the mainland so do you think that there are things such as that that could be addressed or can't be addressed delivery charges all these sort of access to materials and things how do you think they can be addressed in the plan if indeed they can at all who'd like to to go first on that Camille would you like to go I was going to add it's just not economic sustainability it's social sustainability as well you know like in a small island like the one that I represent you have 30 people on the Isle of Ram 35 people on the Isle of Mark 80 105 people on egg 12 going down to six on Canna if you don't have social sustainability these islands will die so social economic is is linked to the social and that means access to transit to housing access to medical to everything is very much dependent on having a transport strategy that will meet the aim and aspiration of the islands RET has done a lot but we're working with Caledonia McBrains at the moment about the freight issue how can we have a freight issue that is fit for purpose because it's it's fundamental if you have an RET system for cars for passengers you have to have an RET system for freight and how that is going to be delivered it's not for us to say it's for all of us to work together with yourselves with the department of transport with a ferry division it's it's a it's a complex issue David do you want to come in on that and then I'm going to bring Stuart in and come back to go well I just say I I'm not an expert in legislation my only objective imagination but it seems to me that it's a lot an awful lot to ask one bill to look at broadband and housing and everything else on the other hand if the bill gets people talking about these issues and focusing on the island problems then that's a very good thing so it's more about getting a discussion going and focused rather than saying broadband is across Scotland yes we've got this issue or you know housing is a problem in Scotland it's focusing on islands and then within that within the plan it should be specific islands and their needs and it's about getting minds focused Mr Stewart can I bring you in and then I'll come back to you I just wanted to pick up on Camus's reference to Caledonia and McBren we'll look at island proofing later on our questioning so it's a more generic question the list of bodies that are covered includes for example number 13 David McBren but it doesn't include Caledonia and McBren now I'm a bit uncertain as to why that's the case it's clear that a number of the government's companies including David McBren are included but not the subsidiaries of those companies there are councils who are included but not the companies that are owned by those councils for example Orkney has an interest in six companies in housing, in towage, in farming and in ferries and I just wonder whether it should be a more whether we need a more generic approach that says all the things that are on here and all bodies that they control because specifically CalMac came up and it's specifically not on the list only the owner of CalMac is on the list which is David McBren quite a specific question would anyone like to tackle that somebody's going to have to give Stuart an answer okay Camilla I'll let you answer it and then I'm going to come back to go I'm happy to say yes I think Caledonia McBren definitely but also we are aware that Caledonia McBren doesn't cover the the Shetlands and and Orkney so any ferry companies that's that serve the island has to be all the bodies everybody's got to be involved to say that was partly what was in my mind when I asked about private companies earlier yeah just to ask the the bill we talked about social aims Camilla and you're quite right but do you think that the economic aims of the bill in particular should be more explicit do you feel that there are any economic games in the bill or should there be any in the bill who would like to Rachel I think I mean and David alluded to it earlier but you know having a sustainable economic base is is you know is the lifeblood of of an island what we find in islands is that we've got high levels of employment for example but if people can't find a job they just leave and that impacts on the sustainability of the services and the remaining populations within islands that's certainly the case in Shetland we just very high levels of employment but when there's nothing going people just leave and this puts an impact on other services so I think that you know a strong and sustainable economy that an ambition there to to or that should be a key ambition of the the island's plan and the bill going forward David you want to come in yeah just again referring to the survey 88% of businesses said their islands were good places to do business but it's quite clear that for them it was the lifestyle it was the culture that the community that's what held them 20% had considered moving to the mainland for business purposes in the western isles it was 29% so they're always at the back of the mind is is my business sustainable on this island can I continue and there's always a potential to walk so I think that's very important that the bill addresses the economics of the thing and yeah I think whether it's enough in it I don't know it's it's what's between the lines rather than in the lines that matters okay we're going to move on to the next section before I do I'd just like to to ask one question that came up as a result of our visits was somebody said that if the island's plan started off with a section that there should be no reduction in current population and in fact the aim should be to increase populations on islands everything else in the plan would flow from that does anyone have any views from that or do you think that's a reasonable assumption I mean yes not only my term but yeah I mean the the whole point about economies is you need to have sustainable economies based on a diverse population a vibrant population and for that you need a cross section of age groups and you need a a growing population a population's declining is going back you need to sustain the post office the grocery shop and these sort of things so great population on islands or at least a sustainable population would probably be the driver for everything else in the bill Fraser do you want to come in and then briefly Rachel and then I want to move on to the next section if I may yeah I mean I think growing population is it's important I mean we've seen seen the growth of some island populations but yet the demographic of the the population changed quite considerably and I think it's it's it's striking the balance it's about making sure there is the the right number of of working age people and there are the opportunities for for for young people I mean I think it was which touched on with with the acting things in the importance of of transport links it's not just about the the sustainability of the economies but without the the transport connectivity it's very hard for those businesses to grow they might be able to sustain on the the populations there but actually how do we help them to to grow I want to bring Rachel in and then we're going to move on to the next question I think it's just to to echo what's been said already that it's about demographic balance as well making sure that we have you know people of all ages right from the very young to the very old islands that's that's what you know enhances island life and I think I did some research in 2015 looking at the attitudes and aspirations of young people across the islands and islands and when we drill it down to the young people living or want to return to the islands we find that the young people really value the quality of life there and they they recognize that they may have to compromise a little maybe on some career progressions but the the fact that the islands offer a good quality of life at a great place to bring up children these more than compensate for that maybe potential lack in career progression that they might see in the future thank you very much the next question is going to be from Mike Rumbles welcome I just first of all say I'm not hiding behind all those equipment and people and it would be nice to see the panel properly but there we go I want to drill down on island proofing it's a big part of the theme and in previous witnesses we've explored the idea of how to avoid a tick box exercise so it actually means something more meaningful we've got a we've got a list of over 60 odd public bodies which a duty will be put on them to island proof whatever that means and that's what I'm trying to find out from you how do you expect how would you wish island proofing to actually operate in practice okay I suspect you'll all have a thought on this uh so I'm going to start the other way around from my left to to my right Fraser if you'd like to start off I mean I think for for me it's about trying to change the question sometimes um that as public sector reductions take place and services are being cut say there's not enough uh there's not enough pupils to attend a school or or anything like that instead of thinking do we need to close that school we start going the other way how do we attract more kids um so how do we how do we change the sustainability of the public set services that are delivered on islands rather than saying do we need to cut these things to to meet the current population it's about trying to look look at the longer term and making sure that it's not just about meeting the the needs of the population that exists there today but will the move being made by the the public body or or business or whoever adversely or positively impact on on where where we want that island to be in five 10 15 20 years time could I just ask more specifically I think I think it's a slight misunderstanding what I'm trying to get at is the bill puts a legal responsibility on the on these 60 odd public bodies how do you want it to operate in the words should headquarters been Glasgow Edinburgh somebody in that office think oh well I've looked at that and I've ticked that box because I've thought about the islands asked a few questions how physically how what do you want that organisation to do whether it be Scottish water or anybody on that list what do you physically want them to do should should they actually to give you an example should you should there be a requirement on one of each of those public bodies to consult people in the islands before they make decisions that's just one example I'm going to do because that's a specific question I might let you back in if I've got time phraser at the end of it I've moved straight to to David to answer that because you were nodding furious yeah well absolutely we think island proofing might be more effective sort of considering economic strategy but when it comes to impact assessments often it is as you say tick box very seldom do people get out of their offices in Glasgow or Edinburgh or wherever else and actually talk to real people now people come to us often and say we want to talk to business but how do we go and talk to a business well you actually knock on the door and you go in the business and say can I speak to you and it's very simple and not enough of it happens so I think it's getting out there and meeting people on islands and actually talking to them that counts you leave that you might spend a couple of days doing it a bit of cost but the benefit you get is massive compared to sitting reading boring reports on a bit of paper that's what needs to happen right show yeah I suppose we think the island impact assessments there should be a clear sort of link to the national islands plan the outcome so it should look at the that sort of the the interventions that the islands plan is seeking to undertake and looking at the I was looking at say potential impacts such as population or demographic balance then the island impact assessment should clearly assess whether any interventions or policy or strategies will have a negative impact on that we also I suppose in terms of the impact assessment it shouldn't be just a tick box exercise what it should also do is it should it should public body should be starting to think creatively how they mitigate against negative impacts so you know for example Fraser spoke earlier on about the a one doctor you know moves out of a small island then you know that the whole you know public health system can crumble and you know the the you know the public body in that particular case would maybe look at a creative ways in which self services could continue to be delivered on that island so it's it's not just about a tick box exercise it's about actually you know asking public bodies to think creatively we're up we've all got resource pressures but how how can we deliver services more innovatively and creatively in island areas okay so it appears you're saying positive discrimination to make islands work more come here would you like to I think that's one of the things that we were trying to visualize because that's that's a difficult one and first of all making sure that whatever consultation is not tokenistic good example happened in the Highland Council education department they just tried to impose a complete change in our education system in the small isles and they said but we have consulted you yes two days before the the changes were due to be to be made so proper consultation meaningful consultation having a list of stakeholders and making use of these stakeholders knocking on the door phoning them emailing them making survey there's a lot of tools that are out there that can be done perhaps also making sure that some of the bodies that are got to to to island proof are actually doing something about what they have done I'm thinking about the national trust of Scotland how many surveys and plans have they made to make sure that canna will not remain depopulated they make another plan they put it on the shelf and nothing happens the island continues to be depopulated so give give also give teeth to that island proof thing so that action is followed by the consultation Fraser I didn't let you come back having had a but if you want to come in now now it's your opportunity yeah I mean I think it's just about public bodies and others giving some some thought as to the the potential negative impact and whether their services can be delivered by other public bodies or if they've they've had discussion so it's about showing evidence that they have have properly considered the positive and negative impacts of of what they're doing and looked at mitigating factors to that okay I'd like to bring in Jamie Greene at this stage thank you very good morning panel I've heard some fascinating comments this morning and I think it really is interesting we're starting to round up these evidence sessions and and start to bring it together I think given the expertise around the table I'd like to focus on the economic potential of the bill specifically around business so given that the majority of the authorities listed in the schedule of the bill are so-called public authorities or public services public bodies government departments etc very little is mentioned of the private sector for example utilities companies telecommunications businesses and so on of which have a substantial part to play and it falls on from what Stuart said does island proofing as it's currently written in the bill actually address any of the economic issues that affect islands I'll open that out to the panel David it looks like a logical place for you to start and then I'll bring in Rachel because I didn't that train on the last one sorry maybe a case study on the utility front last june 2016 business and borrow phoned up and said we've been at EE signal for three months because there's basically the kits out of date it's broken down they can't repair it we're not repairing it and as a result I mean it's not a it's not a necessity it's not a it's an utility it's an essential thing to have phone signal now CalMac might not be failing failing they couldn't let everybody know there might be an emergency doctors they couldn't know what didn't know what's going on so what happened was we had to write to the chairman of EE and we had to get the press involved and as a result the matter was solved fairly quickly because the times was involved and the BBC was involved and the chairman of EE was involved should it require FSB to get involved and to make that happen or should there be some other mechanism by which when things go wrong or when your broadband fails or when something crucial happens another situation in in Islay this year where they installed a green cabinet for somebody right beside his house his business is 200 yards away it wasn't on the wired in for no good reason they switched his ADSL line off so he had no broadband at all all his bookings about company all his bookings went to pot and um he couldn't trace his bookings he was also member of the local lightboat service he couldn't get signal for that again he had no means of ensuring that he was wired in quickly we intervened have we got it done very quickly for him why are we having to intervene so I'm not sure how the bill can help with that but that needs to be addressed how can island communities or individuals put things right who do they contact in these situations companies that provide these services are not listed in the schedule of the bill so there's no duty on them whatsoever to island proof any decisions that they make you raise the question I'm somebody giving case studies I don't know is the answer to that okay Rachel do you want to come in on that yeah I mean in terms of highest response we we did say that the because of the significant role that some of these utility companies but also you know delivery companies logistics companies transport companies because of the they have such an impact on island life and on infrastructure development we would suggest that there is a consideration made that to extend the duty for you for island impact assessments to these large corporate organisations because of the the impact that they have on on island communities I was just going to say in terms of one point about island impact assessments earlier that I was wanting to make is that what we don't want to see is island impact assessments holding up development or or or policy in island areas we don't want to see an island impact assessment being done six months after and somewhere in a very remote location so I think island impact assessments if they are done they have to be swift and they have to be flexible and they have to be incorporated you know upfront in any business case or decision making process okay I've just before John I would like to bring you in but Camill in your evidence or in the evidence but from your organisation had suggested that there was an island's office were you suggesting and I'd be interested to hear your views I'm sure the committee would on whether the island office could address the very problems that David has mentioned on the part of small businesses Camill would you like to comment on that? Well if you had such a fit an island desk that would be staffed by people that understood the issues of islands very well and would be consulting with a whole range of stakeholders that might be a short cut but certainly I think that maybe there is one of the problems in the bill as we just said that the utility providers are not listed as as needing to buy land proof because I think that is that is quite quite important for them to be to be included in the island proofing I think in our submission we did say that transport utility providers should be of gem should all be also subjected to island proofing because they have such an impact on our lives. Okay John Finlay would you like to comment on that? It was on that specific point there I absolutely understand the implications of the utility companies and the telecommunications companies I wondering assuming that it were competent and I think there is an issue of whether it would be deemed as competent given that these are reserved issues to be included in the whether it would be competent for Scots legislation to to say other than an expression of hope but I wonder if first and foremost that builds an unreasonable expectation because of course there's frustrations with these companies in urban areas as well but also whether you feel that there might be the potential however difficult it might be to shape the move of a multinational corporation to at least if public bodies in Scotland are getting it it gives a direction of travel that we should that they should consider it. Who would like to David would you like to comment on that? The problem with islands is because they've got small isolated communities they're going to be bottom of the list when it comes to things going wrong or when it comes to decisions to be closed to closed banks or other things you know remote communities get rid of them first there's a huge knock on impact on the viability of those communities. What you chaps can do about it with legislation I don't know I don't know enough about what you can and cannot do but if we're looking at the sustainability of these islands if we're looking at trying to encourage more young people to stay on and so on you've got a good communications you've got to whether it be to the mainland or you've got to the thing you've got to have these things so if the bill can help with that then great. You were going to come up with a solution. I was going to maybe not astound as David was on that I think I don't think islands are at the bottom but I think there's a lack of recognition at times over the the importance of things if a mobile operator's mask goes down that could well be the only mobile operator that has a mask on that if a road is shut for maintenance there might not be a detour or the detour might take you the full tour of the island and as well as that might be very pretty it might not be very helpful if a bus doesn't appear on time it could be one the only bus that day it's about recognition of the the impact that the failure to deliver a service might have in an island community which might not be there if you are in a mainland or more urban area and I think it's also about the recognition that many of the challenges faced in island communities are not only faced in other rural communities but they're very reliant so Orkney is very reliant on the A9 to Thurzo in terms of ferry connections on Aberdeen harbour on the delivery of services on other parts of Scotland and I think it's about making sure that those connections are considered not just for their area but they're not on consequences for islands too. I'm going to bring Jamie back in and then Rachel you're going to be the first to answer his subsequent question. Thank you. It's maybe a technical point but it's probably worth noting that the very first body listed in terms of the duties in relation to the bill is the Scottish administration and number one is Scottish ministers and one would assume that by Scottish ministers that also meant their relevant executive agencies directorates and so on however that's possibly a question we can ask the bill team when they come in so that may cover all the relevant public bodies which which cover roads etc. David you mentioned something earlier in the session around that you whilst there are similarities between the problems that businesses face in rural communities and on islands and we've heard a lot about those similarities but you said you had done some work on the specific differences as well and that's something we haven't teased out of you so is there anything you could share on that to enlighten us? We asked businesses do you feel doing business on your island makes you different to the remote parts of the mainland 88% said yes they do feel that their problems are different but then they put the comments down as to what the differences were and with the obvious exception of ferries and it was obvious but then again you've got two mainland ferries areas that can only be reached by ferry you know I do it in the scurry but the exception of ferries everything really also impacts on mainland businesses it's a matter of degree sometimes it's more sometimes it might even be slightly less because the different problems faced by islands you know sky face is very different problems to Shetland or to the western isles they're not the same sky's problems actually are more similar to Lochoush or northwest Sutherland at one would argue so it's a matter of degree when it comes to the business problems they're facing but I think the one thing that did come out clearly was islanders feel different because they're on islands that's the key thing. So one of the things that one of the problems I have with the island assessment section of the bill is that it doesn't link back to anything it doesn't link back to the either the plan or some sort of overarching strategy of the bill it just it talks about creating assessment and reporting on that assessment you mentioned a few times about the linkage of strategy and policy and so on it is that do you think the bill could be beefed up to ensure that the island impact assessments actually relate to specific objectives and that's perhaps something Rachel could offer in her response. Rachel I'm going to let you in we are quite short on time so I'd appreciate a concise answer because I would like to get on to two other issues very briefly if I may so Rachel. I think the island impact assessments won't make sense unless there is a clear link to the aspirations and outcomes in the national islands plan which is based on you know communities aspirations. I think we maybe leave it there and I'll ask Stuart to lead the next question and Stuart if you could roll them up. I will do that and essentially I think they're they're all really directed at Rachel that doesn't bother us coming in if they wish and it just really relates to the costs and my questions are do you think the administrative costs and the financial memorandum make sense are they the proper and do you think the costs will be different in different public bodies some of the questions are almost rhetorical I suspect but and are there other costs that simply the bill isn't addressing that you think might arise? I mean it's difficult to answer for other public bodies but I suppose you know from from High's point of view because we are very much embedded in island communities you know part of our operating costs are to you know involve in engaging with local businesses and so on so I guess with any particular view on the the the numbers and the financial memorandum but I suppose the you know what I can see they're realistic. Well that's fine yeah that's a good enough answer. I mean does anyone else have any views on the financial memorandum I'm going to let Fulton just ask a question at the end and I would really ask if you could be very concise in your answers to it and I'll give you each chance to answer it Fulton. Thanks convener it's just I wanted to ask a brief question on the elephant in room if you like in terms of what impact you might think that the Brexit process will have on the islands bill and I was particularly interested in David's earlier response when he talked about EU nationals being so important to the islands I'm wondering obviously the convener said to make it very brief but I'm wondering what sort of thought you've given to that in this process and so I am going to start with Fraser and give you each a very brief chance to answer that Fraser. Yeah I mean I think Brexit certainly has a has a major impact on on island communities in particular obviously everywhere access to labour fisheries designated protections all of these issues have a particular impact on on the islands and it's really important that they are they are considered as part of the process. David. Yeah tourism is a vital industry to most islands tourism is heavily dependent on staff it's very much a public a staff service at the moment a lot of island people don't necessarily want to work in the industry because of the conditions we've got to raise the profile of tourism as a career because who knows what's going to happen with the workforce but the workforce is a key issue. Can I ask the answer as well but how do you think it might impact on the implementation of this bill specifically. Do you want to briefly answer that or I'm happy to move on to Rachel while you think about it I think I'll move on to Rachel if you and see whether you want to answer that Rachel. I'm not sure about the impact island bill will have Brexit will have on the islands bill but what we do know from the businesses that we've surveyed through the islands and islands is that the lack of a sort of stable economic climate at the moment is hindering investment going forward because there is so much uncertainty but you know at sub-sector level there are differences in opinion because of the fisheries for example you know the fisheries communities are broadly welcomed the the Brexit vote so there are differences within different business communities. Thank you and Camille you are going to get the last word on this. As you can guess from my accent I'm one of the foreign nationals that will be very affected by this situation and I would say that a lot of people like myself have moved to islands in the last 10 years and feel that their life might be completely destroyed by this Brexit. That's why I also wanted to bring in the the principle of contained into the 174 article it would be a very important principle to repatriate to Scotland and to the UK and my concern is that the UK government doesn't have a territorial cohesion policy like the EU has and our discussion with the island commission of the CPMR has shown that we have an island policy at the level of Europe and what is going to happen to it once Brexit is happening we feel that islands are naturally interested in making contact with other islands not only in this country but with our counterparts in Europe and we've already sort of started to work on the clean energy EU islands and what is going to happen to that policy when you have a massive amount of money being set aside for this so I'll leave it to you to consider. A series of questions there and that's probably the the the opportunity moment to bring the meeting to a close and thank Fraser, David, Rachel, Camille for for coming and giving evidence thank you very much for your time it's been a very useful session I'd like to now briefly suspend the meeting to allow the the panels to change thank you. Okay thank you we're going to move on to agenda item two sorry agenda item one we're continuing it thank you very much for pointing that out to me which is to move on to the second panel that we're going to speak to this morning so I'd like to welcome those members of the panel Shona MacLennan the chief executive and David Berger of Bordnegallic, Ronald Robertson partnership director of high trans, Ian McMillan principal of Lewis Castle College University of Highlands and Islands and Stephen Whiston have I got that right head of strategic planning and performance our garland butte integrated joint board if I could just remind you those of you that went here for the first panel you don't need to touch any of the technology in front of you when it comes to your turn it will your microphone will be made live if I could ask you to catch my eye at the appropriate moment and nod I will try and bring you in I will do my utmost to bring you in and what I would also say to you is if you could keep an eye on me slightly so I don't have to cut you off in mid-flow I'll try and give you a wee warning that I want to move on to the next person just on a time management issue so welcome all of you the first questions are going to come this morning from Rhoda can I ask if the bill meets with your aspirations and expectations so who would like to show that would you like to start on that. Thank you we very much welcome this emphasis on an island's bill and the recognition of the special assets that are in Scottish islands I think the area where we would suggest strengthening the bill is actually putting at the very start of it what the bill aims to do at which we view as being to secure sustainable communities in islands and and that comes from our the act that set up border Gaelic the Gaelic language act which says at the very outset the purpose of the act is to secure with a view to secure the status of Gaelic language and I think it's something that we refer to a lot in our work and I think it would really help anyone involved in developing the plan or looking to make sure that the impact assessments are carried out so as to effect that so I think having that there could strengthen the bill considerably. Does anyone else want to come in on that sorry Stephen? I think I know I'd also echo that from the health health and social cares viewpoint we really care about it is about sustaining our most remote and fragile communities and certainly we welcome the sort of requirement within the bill to look at island proofing building on what we've done to date. Rhoda, do you want to come back on that? Yes. Do you think it will empower island communities or change the way that government organisations on the like treat islands? I mean there seems to me to be two aspects one people will have regard to how they deal with islands so that comes top down or will do you think it can empower islands to start influencing how those decisions are taken? I caught the end of the last session so just one of the points that I picked up quite early on in looking at the bill when I first glanced through it was the first agency listed being Scottish ministers and it immediately prompted me to check that that did extend to Transport Scotland as an agency who delivers such critical services for our island communities and I think and I got clarification that it does that the provision for the minister to be included extends to two agencies and I think looking at that provision and what that means coupled with other other areas particularly community empowerment I think means that this this bill can only empower our island communities it'll take them much closer to being able to influence the specification of services that are essential to them and give them a much clearer I think pathway to influence these processes and these decisions that may may not be clear at the moment and I think the impact assessment accepting that it probably needs some time and attention to get it right means that there's going to be an awareness around decisions that are taken in the centre how not just how they impact on an island the island where the decision has been taken but how that that spending decision might impact on other islands because naturally the Scottish Government is funding 32 ferry services and a spending decision that develops one of those services may well have an impact on others as well so it means it's more of a I think a holistic view going to be taken in the future as we as we develop our our planning and policy frameworks it's an interesting answer that because one of the questions that we heard on the western isles was whether transport scotland should be a separate consultee at the back on the list so it's an interesting radar and then to Jamie if I may just to own that because obviously when you're working with when we're working with islands we assume for instance your island proof for the western isles or the island proof for Orkney or Shetland I think what's coming clear because we've got islands who have mainland and island authorities not just island authorities that becomes clear that individual islands have issues and it's how you I suppose change have a bill that meets the aspiration of island groups but also meets the aspirations of individual islands which can sometimes be at odds with the island group and do you think the bill allows for that or does that detail have to go elsewhere David you'd like to come in on that yeah just going back to the previous question about the empowerment of communities born in the Gaelic obviously we work closely with the Gaelic community and across the whole of scotland and the islands have a particular importance to the to Gaelic language of the in the western isles for example you know the majority of people in the western isles speak gaelic and various islands within within within the western isles group have different percentages of gaelic speakers and then across the whole of the western seaboard gaelic is really important and so for us the critical part of this is empowering these communities empowering the gaelic community to to to grow and going back to to show on his point about the overall purpose of the of the bill I think it'd be really important to make that clear that the viability the sustainability the economic activity of islands is critical and it's critical to our work in terms of growing the gaelic language that we have economically viable communities within these islands to continue to speak gaelic just just to try and widen that out a bit can I take two supplementaries from Jamie and and Gael at the same time to see if we can bring in some of the other witnesses Jamie sorry I appreciate you letting me come in it's a very important point I think uh rhanald raise it on the point that Scottish ministers are first and foremost uh responsible for island proofing et cetera um but as a result of that therefore all subsequent government agencies and directors that fall under that minister are also liable to use that word um does that in your view and in your analysis of this go down to the lowest common denominator in the way that these agencies operate so for example CalMac is listed indirectly under David McBrain but for example another private ferry operator company is not listed is therefore has no direct need to island proof for example um but would they be covered under the fact that they're working under subsidies given by public agencies or indeed contracts that are awarded by public agencies such as transport Scotland I'm quite intrigued to explore how deep that actually goes rhanald I'm happy to let you in but I mean if you could be concise on that because I'd like to then bring in gail with okay gail if it links come in at the same time and then give you a chance to answer the two together gail yeah I mean I'm interested in the island impact assessment and to follow on from what Jamie had said there are decisions that are made on the mainland that affect island communities in particular a certain bus company who shall remain nameless to change their timetable and therefore didn't meet the ferry anymore coming over from Orkney so do you think that that's something that should be included as well to make sure because island impact assessments are not only things that happen on the islands I'm sure that hasn't narrowed down the bus company rhanald would you like to answer on that I know who it is okay in terms of the the contractual aspect of our you know our government funded service my understanding but I could be wrong is that that doesn't apply the duty on the contracting body but in our evidence we suggested that similar to the national living wage pledge that maybe there would be some value in government procurement encouraging the requirement to complete island impact assessments where there's government finance and that's not just where it's a direct contract because there is significant public funding going into air services as well which still sit entirely commercial on paper so that there could be value in that how that might apply again with looking at bus companies and I'm very conscious of the the legislation that that's going to be considered in terms of the transport bill by parliament as well I think perhaps it becomes very difficult to include mainland bus services as part of an island's bill in a similar fashion I think I recognise that scottic or noid art are very difficult to include within this as well but perhaps we need to ensure that other aspects of legislation link appropriately one to another and I think there is an opportunity with the transport bill coming before parliament to perhaps consider the importance and maybe a hierarchy around what different transport services are doing in terms of their functions where they're very strategic and providing very important lifeline links on to other services and encouraging better links we've had very very frustrating experience with them new ferry services going on that don't connect with trains and things like that I'll stop there I'm conscious of that bring in briefly Shana and then move to the next question if I know it was just in reference to other legislation because we also responded to the consultation on the socio economic duty and highlighted the challenges that remote areas have and that that should be considered as part of it when contracts or policies are being made that the challenges that remote areas endure should be considered as part of a socio economic duty not purely on a financial poverty basis so that links to transport and I think to this bill as well okay I'm going to move on to the next section if I may john convener and that's to do with the national islands plan I mean as things stand the bill says that there will be a plan says there has to be some consultation but doesn't go into any detail now I note that we've already had the statement made that there should be something right at the beginning of the bill about sustainable communities and that would therefore feed on but do you think I mean first of all do you do you agree that a national islands plan is a good idea but secondly perhaps more importantly should there be a bit more detail in the bill about what should be in the plan not so so I mean I think my last panel will get a bit confused but not so therefore we're not discussing at the moment what is in the plan but what should be in the bill about the plan and then also the timescale as to his 12 months realistic for bringing the plan into place I'm going to bring in on that I think the answer the initial answer to the question is yes the development of a national islands plan is a good thing I think in legislation it would be difficult to be too prescriptive I don't think it would be too helpful to be prescriptive in the legislation as to what that plan should be although I think as was mentioned in the last session there is a need I think to keep it focused on outcomes with a view to looking at its key outcomes that the government actually wishes to see for these outcomes is that like sustainable development is the kind of outcome it is at a at a fairly high level because there is a danger there is a danger that if it becomes too prescriptive that it does by the very nature of that prescription it becomes a tick pox exercise I think there is a need for the plan to outline where we want to be in five years time or in 10 years time what that direction of travel is and it's important then that it enables conversations to take place between the bodies involved and the communities so that there can actually be open dialogue between these agencies in terms of policy changes in terms of what the service changes because I think it's that dialogue that will determine how successful that this will be in future and I think the the bill itself and the plan should facilitate that dialogue. I'd like to bring Stephen in because the whole issue of planning and how detailed it is I think is fundamental. Under the Gallic Language Act we have a responsibility to develop a national Gallic language plan every five years so our experience relates I think quite closely to the idea of an island's plan every five years and that is something that we we go through consultation with all the stakeholders and we present to ministers for consideration and I think what the plan does is it gives a great focus to what we want to achieve for a specific thing in our case Gallic language and culture in this case it would be for the islands what are the overarching aims our plan is not a detailed document it sets strategy direction and we are currently on the third iteration the third draft of that our two previous plans have have definitely demonstrated improvements because we focused on what we wanted to see happening and research has shown that those plans have brought improvements and we've kept it at high level this in this iteration we're proposing that we also have a delivery an implementation plan that sits along the high level strategic plan so that may be something that the islands plan could develop that's not written down in legislation that's just a different approach that we're taking that's good I mean I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the act but does the act talk in more detail about the plan or is it like this that the act it's like this it's like this it's saying it will be prepared this is the period in which it will be prepared this is the process for approval and and this is how you go on to do your next one so it's very it's very similar in that way and what we would say having just been through the process of developing the third plan that 12 months would be very tight because we actually started at the consultation process the development process for the third plan in March 16 and we submitted it to ministers in June 17 and that was having had two plans already what what I would say because we are also members of the convention of the highlands and islands and a lot of the kind of discussions about the economy housing transport health education are happening there so there is perhaps a you know a body of work going on already that may feed into the islands plan that may enable it to be done within 12 months but I think that's tight John before I bring Stephen in do you want to pick up so maybe we can get an answer from Stephen the issue of time that that's shown as mentioned or the 12 months yeah happy to hear from him yes certainly I in our experience we view that as ambitious because of I think your points there made there shown her about the number of agencies involved in bringing those things together and our community's understanding how that all fits together and I just know within health and social care we've a three-year strategic plan our visions mapped out for that our consultation process was compressed and we're still going through iterations of people understanding what that means even with us establishing local planning forums for health and social care and bringing that up to the right maturity level and that's a real that's when you come into that sort of difficult balance of communities expectations aspirations as opposed to health and social care need and how we need to transform and support communities in delivering that and so when you match that to the other agencies plans it actually becomes complex to say the least but are we aligning it in the correct way because absolutely transport infrastructure cultural development all in impinges on all those areas so I do think 12 months down vicious can it be done anything can be done level of resource focus etc but at the moment I would I would suggest you might want to revisit that unless you're going to put more resources into that do you think that health which is your side I think isn't it should that be mentioned in the act are you relaxed as well that we just assume that's in the plan well I think because it's covering all public bodies health is picked up within that I don't think it should be a specific one there is I mean information that we've presented you'll know the way that we provide health across 23 inhabited islands we have resident presence on a few of those not all of those people have very different expectations as a consequence of the legacy around that if you start I think focusing in on a particular public body or agency you will raise expectations beyond what needs to be delivered and I use the word need again I'm going to bring Gail in now for me yeah thank you hello thanks for coming how do you expect public bodies to feed into the development of the plan to what extent do you expect to consult with your own stakeholders and do you think that there are any resource implications to the consultation exercise oh gosh that's a difficult question and Shona I think you're you're directly in the firelight because you've had experience of this before what our and I'll approach this perhaps from two angles both how we work with developing a national plan but also what we've done to some extent I think in in doing impact assessment for island communities in the third national galic language plan so we've got two approaches there in terms of consultation and building a plan um we we kind of it's fairly easy to recognise the galaxy stakeholders so um so we did some work with them bringing them together but then because the the viability the sustainability of the language is dependent on people having jobs people having housing people having education you know all the things we've talked about this morning we have we also work with the public bodies who whose role it is to deliver and support those services and functions so we consult with them in saying here are our ambitions how can you help us to deliver deliver on those ambitions and and deliver your own ambitions as well so that there's a collaboration between the two and in terms of who will actually draw up an island's plan I think to me it's not clear with gaelic the act set up board a gaelic and one of its main functions is to develop a national gaelic language plan when it says ministers will develop um a national islands plan my question was who how and and I'm not sure that you would want that level of detail in the bill itself but I think it's something that I would recommend exploring as to actually how that is going to be taken forward and who is it that's going to collaborate with all these bodies that are listed so that they know that they have a role in developing impact assessments in that there is this desire among Scottish ministers this ambition that there are sustainable island communities and what does that mean for them in terms of how they deliver a service their strategy is it from the outside to the in inside what does the financial modelling mean then for things like housing so I think you know I'm trying to do that within 12 months I think is is hugely ambitious so that's the kind of in developing a national plan that would be my perspective on that what we've done for our kind of island impact assessment in the gaelic plan is we've looked as as divey said about the high levels of gaelic speakers in the communities particularly in the western isles and in other of the west coast islands and said what do we need to do differently to support those communities as opposed to the growing communities around gaelic medium education in cities and towns so we've actually said there are different approaches needed and that's so we have to do that yeah in it but just make it clear with this this term island proofing which seems to be being used is going to come up as a separate section shortly say in if I could bring you in thanks thanks convener I think there's a clear role for community planning partnerships and as shona mentioned earlier on the convention of the highlands and islands I think it's going to be critically important that we're clear how these different groupings work together in terms of developing developing the plan because there is a there's already a lot of activity that's being undertaken within community planning partnerships I understand that it's easier for those of us that are located completely in islands because our focus is completely within islands and that that's maybe a bit more challenging for Argyll and Bute area and the Highland Council area but we've already been very focused in the islands in developing our local outcome improvement plans and looking towards the same the same challenges in effect that have been mentioned in relation to this bill and the national islands plan so there is already a body of work that's been undertaken and I think it would make sense to to make use of that that work I think there is always a danger that we end up tripping over one another because there are so many people involved or the same people involved in developing similar solutions but doing so in different guises and there is always a it's one of the challenges that we have in islands anyway is that we tend to come to a lot of groups wearing different hats with different responsibilities and it's sometimes hard to to keep the focus on why you're there and who you're actually representing but I I think it's been mentioned earlier about the plan I think it who is actually going to own the plan and coordinate the plan I think is the critical thing because there are these bodies already in existence who should be able to work together to involve all stakeholders and to pull together the plan we talked about the timescale as well being ambitious well I'm afraid that has to be ambitious and if we take too long over this then we won't get anywhere particularly quickly. With the community planning partnerships already being in place and the local improvement plans either completed or being worked on do you see any financial implications for the consultation phase? I would expect there will always be financial implications because we will have to change what we what we do although that should be part and parcel of what we're about in any case or I would hope that that's what one of the main reasons that we're there is to serve our communities and while there is likely to be some additional cost as we move our feet to respond to a different requirement I think there is a there is an an increasing alignment of these policies and I think with the national islands plan that that for the islands areas can pool all of these together and give us a clear focus and give us a clear or steer that while there may be additional requirements initially that that should improve over time okay I think that neatly leads us on to the next section Mike. I want to drill down specifically on the whole issue of island proofing you'll be aware that in the bill and the annex to the bill there are over 60 public authorities that there is an hour would be a legal requirement for them to island proof any policy that they are initiatives that they're coming forward with and it's been great because all our witnesses says this is great island proofing is marvelous it's absolutely essential that island proofing is done but you know what certainly from this side of the desk it seems to me that there's a little bit of ambiguity about exactly how island proofing is going to be done and approached by all these 60 plus local public bodies so my question really is focused on this well just before I pose the question I just say one more thing what has come obvious is that lots of witnesses says that they tell us what the it mustn't be it mustn't be a tick box exercise it mustn't be somebody in there one of these headquarters in a Glasgow Edinburgh sitting down thinking oh well I've got to think about the islands now or I've thought about them there's tick box that's that's done so we know what it we don't want but how do you giving evidence now to us now how do you envisage the practicalities of island proofing what actually has to happen who would like to go on that David would you like to head off on that I think it can goes back to the the purpose we talked about in in the in the bill or the act when it comes along with a view to securing sustainable economically active populations on islands and I think if you have that kind of benchmark at the start of the process it's much easier to then start island proofing towards that benchmark so for example when you're talking about a new policy or a new service or or talking about education or or health is what you're talking about going to have a positive or negative impact on on that purpose and I think relating you know that all runs back to that I think the purpose of the bill about sustainably economically active island communities impact on the people of the islands how would you know so for example sitting in Edinburgh or Glasgow how would you know that for example um ferry services or schools for example or health service will that change in service improve the sustainability of that island or will it have a negative impact on the sustainability of that island's population and economically active population we could go back to them the point about the western islands for example we hear quite difficult stories about the projections of population I think island proofing should be about putting as many policies in place that make islands attractive to retaining people but also attracting people into the area and the policies should follow should flow through towards that so for example schools if there's not a school in the community it's not going to attract or it's not going to retain young families if there's employment and so on and so on is there housing available we talked in the earlier session about private business and so on some of the businesses we're talking about are probably quite small scale in terms of hotels and fish farms and so on and so on are we having are the policies around the table between public agencies and private businesses aligning to make sure that these aquaculture jobs are possible within that community so it's about thinking about when we're talking about building houses are they going the right place to make sure that happens I'd like to try and bring rhanald in and then and then I'll let you push it again safe rhanald has another opinion no it's not doing a different opinion but I think what I would say is an island impact assessment does not a self assessment I don't think that would be credible or could work I think in our evidence we suggested that there are models in terms of this two-stage process for the strategic environmental assessment or the equalities impact assessment that would suggest that there's a gateway or an office that you can consult about your your policy or plan that says there is no island impact now what that looks like where that would be based and how that you know how you ensure you have the you know the cut across to to be certain that there isn't an impact then I think that that is something that does require a bit of thought and attention I do think that that you know there's an awful lot of areas that wouldn't be having an island impact and you can actually probably address it quite quickly but you do still need to have I think some some skill or some somebody who can actually act as that gatekeeper and I don't know exactly what that would evolve or look like might do you want to come back that's what I was trying to get out I mean if I can just say we all agree that's what the policy should be people should be thinking about all of these things but my question really and you've answered this one really is the practical implication of something so the suggestion is there I think is that somebody sitting in office of Scottish water let's say in Glasgow whatever it is how do they know whether their initiative is going to have an impact on the island of one of the islands so should there be you know should there be a creation of a of an island's office staff by people who know we had that in the previous panel a point there that should there be an island's office staff by people who know about the islands where publicly 60 odd public bodies that could be their first port of call for instance would that be a practical way of dealing with this I mean I understand that you're saying it shouldn't be self-assessment I mean all of the islands want it once self-assessment I'm sure they do but it wouldn't be necessary practical for those 60 organisations so it's the practicalities I'm looking at for you answer that it's probably also fair to say that we heard last week on the western isles that unless you've actually lived on an island and know the problems of an island you don't really or have experienced problems of islands you don't know an island so perhaps you could bear that in mind with the person who you're thinking or the group that you're thinking ran of I'm going to bring you in and then Stephen as a person who's lived in an island and from an island and maybe I'm okay on safe ground that in all seriousness you know it might well be we talked we've talked about the preparation of the plan and I think a lot of the evidence you've heard has talked about co-production as an important element of that it might well be a co-production of the gateway facility it might well be you identify a number of key agencies who form that who act as at quite a high level you know the the first submission comes in and all of those agencies if they be at Borsnigallic or SNH or you know the local authorities all say well no we don't see an impact for for our areas how they manage that how they consult and how they engage to be through community planning or something else I think there's scope to come up with a concept and I think it links back to the the co-production of the the plan itself in any case I think you know you need to think about that as well as as a plan you need to think about what an island impact assessment looks like and how that process is going to work as well as writing out what the plan itself will look like thank you I'll bring Stephen in and then I'm going to move to Jamie thank you I suppose if I'm reading your question right how do we know it's going to have a domino effect how do we know that some change in health or social care will have that domino effect and and as we flagged you know people have clear expectations about what the type of health and social care should be provided to their communities and often that's based on history and legacy of but what's been in place to date and what might change so you know a simple example we might be changing dental services on an island because of new policy that's coming in around public dental services will that have a material impact in the short medium and long term on the viability of that community that community is no longer accessing services on their island with a very low frequency and and in the future they might have to travel to the mainland is that going to have a significant impact in health and well-being outcome terms you might argue 10 years down the line you will see that some people won't be able to travel for dental services and that has a knock-on effect in health and care services will that prevent people coming to move to the island if they don't feel there's a service there which can support their health needs that domino effect which will then trickle down you might argue was actually quite small because we might be talking about very small community and ways of mitigating that or actually is it one of those key building blocks which will have a ripple effect that in health and care care so terms we won't understand necessarily but maybe there are other colleagues in some of the community planning discussions we'll understand that will be the case yet we'll have to make a tough decision on what's required for that area there is is that what i'm picking up around that understand the point that you're making but who who makes that it's not you sitting in Oban making that decision or how do you find out whether the lack of a dentist and say more will affect them how do you find out you just look from your office in Oban are you just making that decision yourself i'm clear with our approach has always been about engaging with our communities we develop locality community engagement processes co-production processes around this and so we will continue to do that the bigger point to me is we'll do that as a silo in isolation will engage with some of the communities directly affected but we won't necessarily be thinking about that broader sustainability aspect at that point in time because people are concerned about how am i going to get my service going forward not the future of sustainability and viability on the island communities reflect that in and i think that's where we have a risk of people saying island proofing is going to slow and delay things because you're going to go through a number of hoops be they tick box or okay i'm going to bring Jamie in now thank you convener um i think that's leads on very nicely you've given a practical example there um of how this bill may affect you as an agency each we have a unique opportunity each of the panel members are uh part of an agency who will be directly affected and will have to produce these island impact assessments when the bill goes live so i'm very keen to sort of draw out of you um what you feel this bill places on you in terms of the onus to produce these impact assessments as it stands it applies to development delivery and redevelopment of any policy strategy or services that your agency performs the effect that it has on an island community and what can be done to improve or mitigate that decision and that could be any area of policy or service that you provide so it's very all-encompassing specifically on health how are you going to produce these island impact settings for every decision that you make to justify that decision to look at the effect that will have potential effect that will have on an island and then what happens next once you've produced that assessment does it just you just present it back to the minister and say well this is the effect this will have on an island but nothing actually happens to mitigate the effect that change may make so what are the practicalities around these island impact assessments and how can they actually improve life on an island um health seemed to uh and and as soon as he finished even you looked down and said i'm assuming that was because you wanted to speak indeed um absolutely we recognise how important across all our all our communities mainland rural as well as island communities health provision is health and care provision is and and i think it's going to be a real challenge for us to manage the expectation of what do we mean by island proofing and island impact assessment and how that operates in practice at the moment when we introduce service change we involve and engage our communities in that and as part of that we have a range of processes and which i've listed in in the evidence submitted that we would follow and assess against things and the outcome of that would be with those communities this is what we found and this is what we'd recommend as the change going forward in the form that was originally prescribed or actually has been developed and iterated through that engagement and i guess i put my head down a little because i'm thinking i've got 23 islands inhabited islands and some of those access services you could argue in an equitable way from those who have resident health and care services on the island and that's just about scale geography history legacy we we know we have to change the way we deliver health and care services going forward and people's expectations and aspirations are very high on those communities highly concerned about viability in those communities if there is a domino effect our biggest concern is we will absolutely look at health and care need and i use the word need again rather than aspiration or expectation because with if we don't focus on that we will no way have the resources to deliver that and with the challenges we're facing we cannot do that so we have a process at the moment which brings it to health and social care that bigger question how does that affect the future sustained between viability i think is where we need to sit that within either community planning partnerships or a and other agents sorry jemmy can i just bring in shenna and then come back to you please shen and this was purely to offer up our experience because as well as doing a national gallic language plan we we have the function of requiring public authorities to develop gallic language plans for their authority for their service so it's not the same as doing a gallic proofing exercise it's actually a more proactive approach so saying you deliver whatever service you're a local authority you deliver these services how are you going to support and promote gallic within your local local authority area and we have a team of officers who work with officers in the public authority and we do monitoring of those plans so that that's different from from proofing but it is another approach to saying and it may link to the island's plan of saying what is it that we expect to see and are those policies going to fulfil what we expect to see or not and that's maybe a way of measuring them okay john can i bring you in and then come back to jemmy sorry just because there are questions lining up here john thank you community it's specifically on that point jenna the view who pleases the plan then basically and is there an enforcement role i mean i know that sounds a very heavy term but if it's going to be meaningful there has to be some outcome and the outcome can't be that it's putting a shelf and doesn't have any relevance so is there any policing sort of role for um we have a monitoring um a monitoring role within within the board um so that the authorities are required to submit reports in progress and we do try to work in a collaborative way with the authorities um there is an ultimate sanction that the minister can intervene um if if the view is that the authority has failed um so so within the act there is that opportunity the other thing i was going to say sorry that i didn't mention was for developing language plans there is statutory guidance which tells the authorities you know how to do that so maybe in island proofing it's the statutory guidance that will actually describe how it's to be done and how it's to be implemented how it's to be monitored and and reviewed so that that may be one mechanism that answers your question. Jamie do you want to come back in thank you um that's this is a really interesting point the um nowhere in this build is actually used the words island proofing and it's really important that we know that um we talk about it a lot and that the intention of the bill is to island proof but all it actually is doing in part three is saying that island there must be an island community impact assessment indeed the only line that talks about regard to island communities says a relevant authority must have regard to island communities and carry out its functions full stop so there's no real island proofing going on my question is real island proofing would require potentially huge financial backing to properly island proof decisions so for example in a health environment instead of closing a GP service or a dentist surgery or what have you island proofing would mean that you wouldn't close it but that would require huge financial investment on the part of the agency to island proof your your strategy so how you know what are the have you seen any financial consequences of this bill or is it other financial concerns just in producing the impact assessments not in actually delivering properly island proof services. Stephen that looks like you're in the in the frame for this one. I think you're right island proofing suggests that you're providing a completely equitable playing field of all services for health and care and all those island communities so so butte could look across at island and say yep we've got equitable service provision there based on that and in in reality to achieve that you'd require not only a huge amount of finance but actually more importantly where you're going to find the workforce and resource to deliver that and resource in that's full its sense education training interdependencies partner employment all these sorts of things and and I think that makes it highly unlikely that that will ever be achieved. The key issue for us is when we're impacting assessment impact assessments all the ones that we do we're looking at what are our mitigations around some of the changes how we're preventing that being a significant change in service and and again we're under legislation that says if there is a significant change in service you have to go out to full consultation and there will be a ministerial decision on particularly around health services and that's something that we know we follow through etc but we are faced with really difficult choices in transforming health and social care going forward we know we've an aging workforce all the things that I don't want to repeat here but if we can't recruit a GP to an island what is the mitigation we need to put in as an impact assessment to ensure that that community needs for for GP services is met and that might be a very different model to what's in existence now and actually what we have had to put in place in certain of our islands so the proofing element is actually more about what's the alternative service delivery that meets the need balancing against expectation aspirations of those island communities who will see some of those changes that's threatening the potential viability of those services. Okay I mean does anyone else want to just pick up on this issue of cost for island proofing? I'm very happy, Ronald, if you do that and then we'll move on to the next section. Just very quickly you know I do appreciate the point around island proofing but I'm not entirely sure that I agree that island proofing is having the same level of services in every island community as you have in every urban settlement or urban centre I think it's giving due regard to islands needs and I think that's the point that perhaps I should have been clearer and said earlier on but I think in our evidence we've suggested that there are some high level areas that seem to be particularly felt by island community sustainable population fuel poverty demographic shift that these are the the you know if we're actually able to address the the key areas that are impacting on island life and island sustainability then I think that's better than perhaps having you know too much of focus on having you know a comparable level of service between Bowmore and Bearsden you know I think it's getting it's it's finding the right balance and I think if we could really start seeing a shift with more sustainable populations and you know a higher average wage in a lot of our island areas where it's a real issue and fuel poverty is something I hear about in the Orkney community planning partnership and the Outer Hebrides community planning partnership much more so than I hear elsewhere I think that that for me is what island proofing is as if we can address the address these issues and I think the nature of the plan and the annual report and the refresh every five years means that we can we can shift what our focus is hopefully as we start addressing some of these these big challenges okay thank you we're going to move on to the next section which is Stuart thank you very much convener this is just a brief wrap up on costs we've covered costs related to consultation and I think we've just covered island proofing costs so it's basically I think just boils down to does the financial memorandum properly address the costs associated with the bill who would like to go on that I mean if anyone would like to you know is there enough money for the plan you know and the bill who would anyone like Ian you I think is there enough money I think it's a very open question I think the one thing I would say is that the way it's laid out it does make a suggestion that one size fits all and I think that's really what the island's the bill is looking to challenge very very difficult to you know to make an assessment on the actual costs and how they're actually going to fall but I'm not comfortable with the assumption that one size fits all and that therefore a cost for one agency will be the same you know right across right across the piece but other than that I realized the need to to cost it and at the moment I don't see any other way to do it but I think there is always that danger and I think that's what I see is the benefit of the bill and looking towards an island's policy is that we change our mindset from a one-size-fits-all view of public service. Does anyone else want to make a comment or is it does that summarise that I think it appears that there is no one else to make a comment then so that brings us neatly to the conclusion to for me to thank you on behalf of the committee Stephen, Ian, Ronald, David and Shona for the evidence that you've given including the written evidence that you've submitted it's been very useful and it will allow us to consider the points you've raised as we draw up our report so thank you I'd like to briefly suspend the meeting and ask members to stay in their seats while we allow the witnesses to to leave the room. Okay thank you we're now going to move on to agenda item 2 subordinate legislation and this is the consideration of two negative instruments as detailed on the agenda. Members should note that no motions to a null have been received in relation to these instruments and there have been no representations to the committee on these instruments. Would anyone like to make any comment Richard? Yes convener and I'll refer you to the instrument in regard to the M8, M73, M74 motorway change of speed limits. These regulations arise as a result of road works with improvements that were done on the M8, M73 and M74 and the regulations will reduce the speed limits from the national motorway speed limit of 72 in some cases 30, 40 and 50. Now I note that most of these are in regards to M8, M73 and M74 but also the A725 and the A726. Most are in regards to slip road exit or coming on to the motorway but there is also eastbound carriageway and the westbound carriageway, circular carriageway or certain parts of these roads. My point is that, although I am not against the SSI, my point is what action will be taken to inform drivers what the speed limit is as it has now been changed. It has been in there for a number of years in certain parts of these motorways and I would like drivers to know that it has been changed because, at the end of the day, police are going along these motorways and may capture drivers who do not know that the motorway in certain parts of these sections that the speed limit has changed. I would like the committee to comment on that. Richard, as your comment is specifically that you are not objecting to the order, would you be happy for the committee to write and raise this matter with the minister that we feel that it should be properly signposted with speed limits so that people are aware of that? Would that satisfy you? That would satisfy me and I would be very obliged for that. Before we go to a question of whether they agreed, there is the other instrument which is the closure of a railway station. I am afraid that I cannot but say that, as it does not exist anymore, it has been landscaped into the ground and removed. I am assuming that no-one has any comments about that. Therefore, I would like to ask the committee if we agree to both—sorry, John. Yes, convener, just for perhaps the council listener who may listen to this, it has, of course, been replaced by a superb piece of infrastructure and I think it would be appropriate to commend the work that has gone on in that area with the improvement. I absolutely do agree that the new station is infinitely better and I am glad that the new station has been built, as I am sure is everyone, but the other one does no longer exist. Subject to the committee's writing to the minister regarding the speed limits is that the committee happy that it does not want to make any other recommendations in relation to the instruments. That therefore is agreed and that concludes committee's business.