 Well, look, anyone who's watched your episodes understands that that marketing is a multi-pronged approach, right? And playlisting is just one of them. What I have observed these days is that one of the more effective techniques from the playlisting side is to think about it as if you are teaching Spotify where to place your songs. So you can leverage these independent playlists to give Spotify clues about what they should associate your music with. So you're kind of shaping that similar artists, what do they call it, fans also like section on Spotify. The logic here is that the real meat and potatoes of Spotify is in their algorithmic stuff. And their editorial playlists are even shifting more and more algorithmic as well, right? They're looking for signals. They're looking for clues as to what should be put into that. So you can use independent playlists to teach Spotify where they should place your song. And what that means is that if you make like a super like Celtic music, right? Super niche. What you really want to do, don't go out there and try to get 100 playlists. Try find five that literally do Celtic music. That's it. And those playlists need to be full of all the artists that you think you should be associated with. So what's going to happen is Spotify is going to see that people are listening to your songs alongside these songs. And they're going to start clumping them together. And what you want to do is try to send a consistent and cohesive signal to Spotify. The worst thing you could do is get put into one of these fake New Music Friday playlists. Like one dead giveaway here is often just a really generic name of a playlist. Steer clear, right? But like today's top hits, you'll see that everywhere. Bad idea because A, it doesn't have any hits in it. It's just a bunch of people who paid for placement. And B, like they're not going to have Celtic music, right? So now your song is in there and Spotify's gone, wait a second, we thought they were Celtic, but they're next to an EDM song or whatever. So if you can use these playlists to sort of train Spotify and it's not a one-off thing, it's a slow and steady with each song, what that means is that by your fourth or fifth or sixth song, when you release it, Spotify already knows, oh, these guys make Celtic music. Like let's clump this with a bunch of other banjo playing. I'm going to get in trouble because it's not a banjo. Like whatever Celtic music is, right? But so Spotify now knows where to place your song. And what that means is that these release radar playlists, these algorithmic things that come up to make these recommendations, or also another powerful one is what Spotify plays next. So someone listens to an album, Spotify by default enables auto play. I've disabled it, I hate it. Like I listened to an album, I want to listen to the album. And when it ends, I want to be like, that was it, it's done. But by default, they automatically play other songs, right? They're trying to mint that money. They want to keep people listening and doing this stuff. So you kind of want to teach them that your song should be the next one to show up. So these are the types of things that you can use their independent playlist to leverage for. And in that mentality, it's almost like there's no one too small, right? You get on these Celtic playlists, they're not going to have a big audience. It's such a niche, tiny genre. But getting five of those listeners, if they're all focused on the same stuff, you can actually start to push Spotify in the direction of knowing where to place your music. So in my mind, I think that's one of the more, like the market is super saturated today, right? And if you're an artist coming into Spotify, hoping to get your one-to-one ratio on your payback or thousands of listeners overnight, the reality is that's not going to happen. Because everyone else is trying to do the same thing as well and tools like Submit Hub and Daily Playlist and all that, we've made it accessible for the average DIY artist to go out and push their song. So I think one of the more hands-on better strategies you can use is to target very specific playlists that align very well with the artists that you want to see yourself featured alongside. I love that, man. I love that because, I mean, there's even some playlists like the top TikTok songs and things like that that are actually legitimate, right? But they're still not specific, right? Because TikTok is almost like its own culture where you can have things that aren't the same genre, but still be relevant. But by that theory that you just stated, me getting on place on that legitimate playlist, which a lot of times they make it hard because you're not a hit on there, but like me trying to get on that playlist, it would actually serve me wrong in terms of training the algorithm, right? And I think that switches the mentality that people are approaching playlists with because now I'm not looking for a quick hit, right? Like when you learn that, oh well, all these playlists where you see these huge numbers in terms of growth, most of those are fake, right? Because even editorial, Spotify editorial playlists, most of them are not going to give you these massive shifts, then it becomes, well, what's the value of it? A lot of artists actually become pretty discouraged, but if you approach it more from that perspective, it's like, oh, the value is I'm training the algorithm, not trying to get out the gate. That becomes, that's so great because the last thing I'll say on that is it goes right along a strategy. We use what we call the coverage strategy for lack of better words, any channel, any outlet, it could be an Instagram page, it could be a TikTok influencer, it could be a playlist. But we first really, really leaning heavily with when we were looking at playlists is when you find those few quality playlists, right? And a lot of times because they genuinely do love music, we've had people like, now they're open, they're ready, like, oh man, I love your music. You should shoot them another song. They're excited to see another song from this artist. And then you keep getting your place in that same playlist, right? Their audience obviously will be similar, so they'll see you more than once, but I never really considered the algorithmic specificity that that comes with. So man, I really love you sharing that gym and we're gonna give this a title for this segment of that piece of music. Just for that segment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're gonna get you a couple, you know, $5,000. That's maybe a lot. I was having a chat with Ari Hustand. I don't know if you know him, he does Ari's take. Also like these informational things for indie artists. And he was talking about a playlist push campaign that he did many years ago. And he was super stoked. So he had done a submit-out campaign and he got a few approvals, but it didn't move the needle a lot. And then he went and did this playlist push campaign and within a day he picked up 10,000 streams and he was stoked. He was like, this is massive, this is great. And then a week later, he found that all of his similar artists, which he had been sort of working on for ages were completely wrong. It was artists that should not be aligned with his stuff as all. And so that was, it's that double edge so that you mentioned where you like stoked that you're getting a bunch of streams, but actually you might be hurting yourself a little bit. And then Ari also pointed out an interesting observation which I think straightforward to explain, but getting into these editorial playlists on Spotify, big overnight numbers, right? But terrible save and skip ratios. And often a little bit jumbled on their genres, but the save and the skip ratios are apparently a very important thing to Spotify in terms of determining whether a song is good or not. And the reason I think here is because Spotify is trying to shove these editorial playlists down everyone's throats. And so it's just the common people listening to these playlists, which is a good thing in a way, but most of them are putting this playlist on in the background, hitting shuffle and ignoring it, right? And that's a bad save to skip ratio. It doesn't look good for you. Whereas these independent playlists, they're hustling to get their listeners. They got to do Instagram advertising and they got to do it, like they're doing all sorts of stuff to try and keep their playlists engaged. And often what that means is that they are targeting people who are actively looking for new music and engaging with it. And so they're far more likely to actually be sitting there with your playlist, like listening to songs and being like, oh, I like that favorite, like that favorite. So yeah, it's this double edged sword because ultimately you're trying to teach Spotify so well that they chuck you in all their editorial playlists. And then maybe you're going to take a step back. I don't know the algorithm's not public. We don't know exactly what's going to happen. But yeah, I think it's an interesting train of thought. And so on Submit Hub, we're trying to create more awareness and transparency around how specific playlists are. So we can actually warn someone, like don't bother submitting to this playlist. It's going to muddle your formula. And actually we go a step further. And if we see that from someone who's applying, they're probably not going to get on Submit Hub because they're not helping.