 for our amazing guest, one of our favorites, Skye Mercer, who we've brought back. Skye, we were just reminiscing during the Chitty Chat Chat. I think you were one of the very first week of guests that we had when we started more than a year ago and we were talking about, oh no, you know, the sky is falling, how to protect your job, how to look for a new job. It was like, there are no jobs. I mean, you told me, you witnessed, you'd been hired by some clients to help them lay off people. I mean, oh my gosh. So we're gonna be talking about something completely different in this trajectory of COVID, but now we're talking COVID recovery. And today we're gonna talk about the top three HR policies that nonprofits really need to be looking at as we move into this new phase. Super interesting conversation. Before we get started, I wanna thank our presenting sponsors. Without you, we would not be here having these conversations as we've had. So check them out. They're doing amazing work throughout our country. And now is the time to get invested with them. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom is gonna be off this week. She is having a vacation first time in a long, long, long time. So it's pretty exciting for her. We'll be seeing her back next week. Okay. We are now officially in recovery, right? Do you think so, Skye? I think we are in recovery as evidenced by so many nonprofits opening their doors again and starting to begin recruitment for paid employees, not just volunteers. So that's really exciting. And just working with the cool nonprofit leaders I get to work with, hearing how they're planning to re-expand services this next year and hire. And all of these growth plans are just even back to where they were before. Whereas like you said, a year ago this exact same time, I was helping nonprofits lay people off. And so it is night and day difference. And I just, I feel very hopeful. Yeah, I do too. I have to say I like that you use that word. I do as well. Well, today we're gonna talk about the three top policies that we should all be looking at as we move through this recovery. And the first policy that you've brought up is telecommuting. I mean, we didn't have anything in line for, well, for most of us had no idea about this process before the pandemic. Then we rushed to get everybody telecommuting. That created a whole bunch of problems in itself. Now over a year later, people have become comfortable if not more than satisfied with this. Are we gonna see some problems with people wanting, not wanting, but being asked to come back? Yes, absolutely. If you believe the research that's out there, Lidler Mendelssohn did a survey. There's other organizations that have done surveys that clearly state leaders are way less comfortable with remote and hybrid work than employees want it. And according to Flex Jobs, 58% of survey respondents in their recent survey said they will look for another job if they are not allowed to, and I'm paraphrasing, keep the flexibility and the ability to work away from the office. Now, the cool thing is in my interactions with most nonprofit clients that I'm working with, they're very open to the hybrid work model where people are working from home. If it makes sense for their job, I know there's always that nuance, but I will say there are a number of ways to build in flexibility in scheduling and those types of things for the people who can't work from home because people want flexibility and control over their schedule. But the nonprofits that I've been talking to are very open to the concept of hybrid work where people are working away from the office and then in the office sometimes for that in-person connection. And each person is different, which is a unique situation. I've worked with people who say it's more stressful working from home. I've worked with people who love working from home, but I think majority will say that it saves them money, time, and if they have that option of being connected in a hybrid type environment, that it will be a positive thing. Yeah. You know, it's an interesting thing. I've got two questions about this. One is, if you're a small nonprofit and we have folks that watch the nonprofit show and I'll be really candid with you, sometimes there's such large organizations, there's a part of me that's like, oh my gosh, you shouldn't be watching our show. You should know these things, right? And then we have like tiny, tiny startups. We have everything on the spectrum. How do you, depending on your size, create a policy like this? Yeah. At the risk of oversimplifying, I'd like to point out what the CEO of GM said. I believe it was this past week they have 70,000 employees who are looking at coming back or working remotely. And she said, work appropriately. So whatever gives you drives the outcomes, drives the mission, drives the goals, makes sense for you, makes sense for your job, working out leaders and employees. So even these large organizations, now on the flip side, you have the CEO of JPMorgan Chasing. We all need to work brick and mortar for the rest of our lives. And it's like, well, you've been working remotely dispersed across the US for a really long time. So it doesn't quite make sense. But so I think that it can make sense for large organizations and small organizations. And the policy that I use, and I actually have a free download on my website, skyhrconsulting.com. It's a free work from home e-guide, how to create a compliant work from home policy. And it addresses all of the things that apply both to small nonprofits and to large nonprofits. Things like who owns the equipment when the equipment needs to come back, how security and confidentiality are handled, what does worker's comp look like? All of those, home office safety, all of the things that you need to make sure that whether you're large or small that you are addressing in your policy is in that e-guide. And I think that the other big dynamic, and I'm working with nonprofits on this too, not just my small business clients, now it's turned into not only having that telecommuting policy, but also how do I handle, say I'm an employer in Arizona, but I'm going to have a remote employee in Washington state. So how do I handle it? With my policy as the base, how do I create a telecommuting agreement? And I have a checklist to go through with clients. How do we handle unemployment in the other state? How do we handle worker's comp? Do we need a business license? There's all of this complexity and I'm just so honored and so excited by the nonprofit leaders who are like, oh, we have an employees moving, we wanna hang on to that talent or yeah, we are open to remote work because we realize we may not be able to pay what the market is paying and we wanna give people this benefit or we're a family-driven organization and it's our core value. So it's really been cool to work with these nonprofit leaders doing that. Jared and I have been hearing more and more about the Clarion call to return to the office or to return to the campus. And then there's been these folks that have been like, yeah, well, I didn't really wanna say anything but I moved back home with my parents or the city that I was in was really crazy expensive and I could keep working but have a better lifestyle if I moved into the rural part of the state or whatever. And they hadn't really disclosed that since they were doing their jobs and everybody was working remotely. And so now you're right, all of these issues for taxes and payroll and oh my gosh, really interesting because that is something that nobody could have foreseen. Right. Recovery crazy. Okay, let's get on to policy number two. And this is something that is really an interesting thing that you brought up and that is safety protocols. What is that looking like? Yeah, so if anything has been talked to us by COVID and HR policies, it's that policies are dynamic. They are not static, they change. And so the CDC, the states, the even local public health districts are creating rules that employers need to be aware of and those rules change on the daily it seems right now especially if you're a multi-state nonprofit. So safety protocols, I'd say when you're putting together, you're revamping your safety policy, you're looking at things like masks, you're looking at things like cleaning the office and counter areas, you're looking at things like ventilation and air flow. Those are the main things that I see but I would say start with surveying your employees and volunteers. Start with either just informally, even a couple of quick questions online or a couple of quick questions in person. What do you see as our biggest safety gaps? Which safety protocols, looking at this list of safety protocols, which would you think we need to keep and which do you think we need to look at changing? The people on the frontline, they're important, they're the people who worked through this pandemic and met with clients and waged the battle of safety and they really deserve the recognition. And I think those are the people that are going to have the best ideas for how to modify your safety policy. I think that's a great comment because we don't ask our staff enough. We make decisions, we make assumptions and then it's just not, yeah, we set ourselves up for failure. I'm thinking of like all of the school, we have a lot of teachers in my family and I'm thinking of all of these educators who worked with the population that could not be vaccinated, right? I mean, they're working with kids or small kids and asking those men and women to put their own safety at risk. It's just brutal. And yet, how do you know what they're seeing unless you ask? So I appreciate you bringing that up. I also assume that this is one of those things that is changing daily. Yes, yeah, and it's going to continue to change. And so I think that safety, again, one of the positives that came out of the pandemic is that safety needs to be at the forefront of our conversations. Whether it's at, say you're meeting with your team once a week, at least once a month for all teams should be talking about safety for 15 minutes or obviously it's going to be the once a week talking about safety for certain teams. But to consistently integrate questions about safety into the conversation with employees to continue to integrate communication, training, to keep safety at the forefront because what we've learned is COVID is awful and people have lost a lot of lives to COVID and we've seen a decrease in colds and flus and these things that also negatively impacted employee and volunteers lives. And so some of the safety protocols the team might want to keep in place, especially the hand sanitizers everywhere. I know I appreciate that now. Whereas I wish it would have been there before it's great that it's there now. So I think having safety be at the forefront of your policies, of your HR practices is going to be very important. And as it ties back to that first policy telecommuting is talking about home office safety, having a home office safety checklist, talking about ergonomics for people who are on the computer all day, even things like how to turn off your blue light on your monitor because it really helps your eyes. There's all kinds of things that we should be talking about with frontline workers that are in the office as well as employees who are working from home. I love that you brought that up because you know, I have to admit I was thinking this of more of the nonprofit office or campus, I wasn't thinking of that aspect and you're right. I mean, if we are gonna have more of our workforce engaged in a hybrid method of working from home we better address that. Yeah, it's gotta be part of the discussion too, right? I mean, talking about the safety checklist for your home office, talking about the challenges that arise, looking at your equipment policy and your equipment budget for the year. I mean, there's a number of things that come into play when it comes to home office safety too. And then again, one of the most difficult workers comp claims you can get is repetitive motion injury or something that's related to computer work. But again, making sure that the frontline, the people who are in the building who are dealing with clients are really involved not only in the policy development but also in the training. We have a lot of employees, I think I do the same thing what you mentioned earlier. I'm the leader, I'm going to make the decision or I'm going to host the training or I'm gonna do the meeting on safety. I know. Yeah, delegation is empowerment and people know things that we don't know when we're not working on the frontline. So having an employee rotate and talk about safety, what's coming up in home office safety, some potential solutions, what's coming up in office safety, dealing with clients is a great way to not only empower employees and volunteers but to get them engaged in the safety policy making and training process. Yeah, that's wise. I appreciate you bringing that up because that's just an overall strong approach to management and especially as we're redefining our management and how we're going about this in this COVID recovery, this is a time for that discussion. Okay, now we're getting on to the like the dicey HR policy number three. Dun dun dun dun dun. Vaccinations. Okay, talk to us about that. I'd like to start with a disclaimer. I'm an HR person, not an attorney. And so this is not legal advice, but boy, Julia, we were talking about this, you and I, before the show started, I had emailed you some ideas last week when we were planning this show about vaccination policies. And guess what? On May 28th, the EEOC released guidance for employers on vaccinations. So it's just a great point and a great reminder that these things are changing frequently and leaders are in a really tough spot in needing to keep up with all of these things. But just to kind of highlight, you know, what the EEOC has said, you know, according to equal employment opportunity laws, they're not prohibiting policies requiring that employees who physically enter a workplace receive a COVID-19 vaccination. So long as such policies comply with reasonable accommodation provisions of the ADA, as long as they comply with Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. So if somebody has a sincerely held religious belief that they need an accommodation to not get a vaccination, the government is saying you very much need to take that into consideration and provide reasonable accommodation as appropriate. The part where they're, you know, kind of, again, it's just cloudy guidance because we're working things out as we go along is how employers incentivize vaccinations and making sure, you know, there's equity and fairness in that. So I encourage people to look at the new EEOC guidance you can get on eoc.gov to see what they're saying about incentives. But it's a long conversation among boards and staff and leadership about whether or not to require vaccinations. Now, some organizations like healthcare organizations, it's been crystal clear. You're seeing patients or you're seeing clients in a patient-type setting. Absolutely, this is 100%. They're saying related to the job, our policy is if you're doing that, you do need to provide proof of a vaccination unless you have a disability and need a reasonable accommodation or unless you have a religious belief and need an accommodation. So some organizations have taken that very clear-cut approach. Other organizations, you know, the leadership feels very strongly about it or employees feel very strongly about it, but the relation to the job isn't as clear. So they are working through those challenges. And I hope that this EEOC guidance is going to alleviate some of the concern because it gives clarity. The thing that I'm interested in seeing because based on my research and what I've seen over this past several months is most legal professionals, again, I'm not one, they tend to advise that you strongly encourage rather than require. And so I'm really curious, you know, after this EEOC guidance, if it even makes a change into their opinion or if their opinion stays the same. Well, you know, there's been a whole swaths of American commerce and government that has started in the last 15 years requiring their employees to have the annual flu shot. You know, and so I would imagine there's been some alignment to what that experience is. But this is, that's always been easy to get around to just say, oh yeah, I've had it. You know, and now with the whole concept of the COVID passports and we were all given those cards by the CDC. Do you have that always when you're wallet? Do you email it? I mean, all of these things, it's gonna really change. And then there's all this discussion about the COVID booster shots are gonna be coming down the pike. And so I would assume that's gonna put us into like a whole nother conversation because these things mutate and there are variants. So the policies that we set now and the reality of our public health is one thing where is it gonna be 30, 60, 90, 120 days? Yes, and I'm glad you brought up the flu shot because working with direct service providers in the state of Arizona, I was very used to having to check their TB and Hep B vaccination records. That was part of the job. You have to have had it or the employer will help you get it. So I mean, you're right. There have been vaccination requirements by employers in the past. This is just so new. I mean, it is really different. I think I read something like the last vaccination that was created, it took 25 years where if this one took less than a year or whatever it was. So I mean, it's a unique thing and people have a lot of opinions on it. So I think asking for the feedback and pre-framing, anytime you're asking for the feedback, here's what we're looking at doing. What are your thoughts on this? Knowing that we wanna hear you, we may make changes. We may not make changes based on the feedback, but we wanna hear you. We wanna see what we don't know and hear from our employees and volunteers. Again, I think it's gonna be really important with the vaccinations policy. Okay, we don't have a lot of time left. And before we leave this, I wanna know from your perspective. And again, we started this conversation. We have so many viewers that are super small and then we have viewers that are super big and not all of them have the same HR components or leadership. This is an HR issue, but it's also going to be a legal issue. So where would we find the best advice for our own nonprofits? I would say what I typically recommend doing with any policy or any written agreement is work with either in-house with your board with an HR consultant like me, draft everything up and then have an attorney do the final review. And I recommend it being an attorney that's specific to your area, specific to your organization. But I do think in terms of size, of course, anytime we increase the number of employees and volunteers, the complexity increases, in my opinion, the foundations of these policies stay the same regardless of size of organization. So something that's become crystal clear to me recently is that problems are not unique, meaning that the problem a large organization is facing, a small organization might be facing. Solutions are unique and they're very personal and they're very tied to the organization. So when you have more employees, I think that it can definitely increase the complexity, but the foundations of each of these policies, do we require vaccinations? How do we handle safety in the office, cleaning masks, sanitizing protocols? And then here are the components, like I said, in that free e-guide on my website, skyhrconsulting.com, those components are the same regardless and the policy decisions are the same regardless of the size of your organization. The complexity increases in how you administer it. So then let me, that makes me think of another question to ask you and that is would you advise our nonprofits to have separate policies for volunteers versus staff, employees and board? Yes, absolutely. What I usually do with my nonprofit clients is we build the handbook first because you're going to have legal requirements in there that may not apply to volunteers. And so we go through the employee handbook. We use that as a base for the volunteer handbook that we create because some of the things like paycheck timing, timekeeping rules may not apply to the volunteer, but we pull everything out that does matter, harassment, discrimination, these things still matter even if you're a volunteer or paid employee. So yes, I would recommend having one handbook for employees and then one handbook or I call it a training manual or a manual for volunteers. Okay, smart, yeah. And again, another aspect of this incredible speed with which things are changing. So I've got to believe that this is actually a living document that is being placed on your website or your staff portal, something of that nature so that it's always updated. It's always accessible and the latest update is available, right? Great point, Julia. And what's interesting about that is it's always, it always should have been, you know, but with COVID, now people are seeing, you know, doing an annual review of your policies. I mean, look at the state surpassing paid sick laws, paid leave laws, all kinds of things are happening like all the time now, whereas they used to be a longer period of time, but honestly looking at those policies, what's working, what's not on an annual basis, having that be a dynamic living document and then of course, knowing right now during this weird wonky time of coming out of the pandemic that there are probably going to be more reviews and more releases of your handbook than there normally would be. Right, and it's not a one and done thing. I mean, this isn't like, okay, you know, August 1st, good to go. I mean, this is something that we as professionals are going to really need to be looking at, you know, for a long time coming. Yeah, yeah, and so, and I will tie it back to that first policy to telecommuting. You know, before the pandemic, we may not have been as proactive as leaders to work on trust issues, to work on communication strategy, but really what the pandemic has done, in my opinion, has shined a light on all the problems that already existed, but then, you know, we're being more proactive in fixing them because of this big thing called the pandemic. So, I mean, I think keeping that in mind is really important because it's hard to not be overwhelmed as a nonprofit leader right now, but knowing that these things that you're working on, safety, so important regardless of the pandemic, trust, communication, you know, the vaccination policy probably wouldn't have come up for some organizations without the pandemic, but kind of keeping in mind that these are not bad things to be working on as an organization, and I've found with the nonprofit leaders I'm working with, they're some of the most open-minded, you know, values-driven leaders, and they really want to turn their values inward toward their employees in their policy-making, and that's exciting to be a part of. I love it that you said that because I think that's really true, and it makes this less of a concept of burden and more of a concept of management that we should be doing these things all along, and this is not just a punitive action or a knee-jerk reaction to something going on. These are things that we should have been talking about, and to be a strong manager or leader really should navigate you through that. Here's Skye's information. I just always love talking to you. I learned so much. You're super positive. You're very realistic, but yet you're empowering at the same time, and I just encourage anybody who has some of these questions or even if you're just dipping your toe into it, check out skyhrconsulting.com. What an incredible value to our viewers to be able to access that information, Skye. Thank you for making that available to us. Super, super important, and again, we love spending time with you. Make sure that you let me know what your thoughts are about this. I would love to know how your organization is working through this. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom, my trusty co-host, will be back next week and we'll get to hear about her exploring in another part of our country. I think she did have some nonprofits that she was gonna be visiting, so we'll hear all about that. Again, our presenting sponsors, we thank you wholeheartedly. Without you, we would not be here having this discussion. Hey, we've launched a new program, Fund Raising Events TV. Check us out. Just dedicated to the concept of raising money. We like to say from ballrooms to barns, from gallows to golf, we got you covered. So check out Fund Raising Events TV. Wow, okay, Skye, I need to totally look at our policies. I gotta witness to you, sister. I haven't done it for a while, Tiffany. You're one of the leaders I'm talking about. You're open-minded, you understand things are dynamic. They don't stay set in stone. So you will, and for those folks on the call too, I offer a complimentary HR discovery call to see if working with an HR consultant is right for you. I do believe wholeheartedly that the nonprofits who invest in employment practices are going to be the ones that are sustainable. Just like we invest in a CPA, we need to invest in an HR person at least to set up our systems before you go off and maintain them. So I'd be happy to hear from people on the call. Love it. It's really, without our people, without our staffs, we have no ability to serve. And so it's, I think, the linchpin of what's going on. It's been a pleasure, my friend. We're gonna touch base with you again and see what is cooking as we move through this journey of recovery. We'd like to remind everybody as we close out today's show, stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everybody. Thanks.