 Welcome to a simple approach for managing complexity by Jutta Eckstein and Jutta is joining us all the way from Germany today. So that's a true reflection of the global nature of Agile India. Over to you, Jutta. Thank you so much, Debbie, and welcome everyone. I'm glad to have you all here. One of the first things is I will run that whole session using mirror. And also, I would expect you to come to mirror at least at at one point in time. So you can join right now already I just shared the link in the chat so you can go there already. And take a look around and join me there but for now I'm also sharing my screen so you see mirror here as well, at least I do know that you see it fine. And the other thing that I want to share with you. Oh, I see the first person joining yeah. Is that unfortunately, john is not with me here today so he had an emergency and I just learned this morning that he can't make it. And he is safe. That's what he at least told me but he just, yeah, it's it's an emergency and that's unfortunately, you have to deal with me by myself. I hope I can make up for him. So I see a few people have joined the mirror ball and what I do right now is so don't be shocked if you are on mirror I do a drink everyone to me so you have the same few that I have. And I'm not sure I think we don't have late cameras right now but just in case we have I'm just sharing the mirror link once again. So the title of this session again is a simple approach to managing complexity and I guess that some of you have studied or learned about complexity quite some stuff and I or rather we believe that we might be able to share something with you which is a real simple tool actually we say approach here but it's maybe it's even a tool. And so I do. Yeah, so that's that's what it is oh I just see now that somebody else has joined I do another bring everyone to me so you see the same thing that I'm seeing and we go to presentation here and this is what's the goal is for this workshop. The goal is to understand that there are different perspectives on complexity, then that tool that I have mentioned before that's called the difference matrix, and then how you can benefit from complexity by in or decreasing differences and we want to do this by using a case study, which I'll share a bit later and which you can use by example and hopefully this helps you to transfer it to your own work. Now, the agenda we are at the moment at welcome and set the stage and I would then like to hear from your experiences understanding of complexity. And we will look into different models of complexity only quickly, and then learn about that tool the difference metrics for analyzing a situation then we will use that in the breakout rooms and then we debriefing forever. So that's the plan for this workshop and complexity, actually, is one part of that book of world we are living in right now. Luca stands for volatile uncertain complex and ambiguous and I'm pretty sure you almost all of you have heard about that. The thing is that we really have a hard time to make a real plan and and follow it through, we always have to be flexible and adapt and to accept kind of a complex situation as it is and deal with it and this how we can deal with it is what this workshop is really about. Let me see where we are now. So I want to share once more here the mirror link because I've seen a few more people have joined, and I want to invite you to join me on mirror because otherwise that will not work here. Let me see. We have six people here in mirror we have 22 in zoom so I really hope that you will coming. And come on. To go to the next slide. And so for that, I would need really you to be on mirror. And I see is a few more people have joined me and I do again from everyone to me. And what I'm asking you to do is crepe a sticky that you see down there on the mirror ball, and you type in what comes to your mind. When you hear the word complexity, whatever it is there's no right or wrong it's more or less just what what is it that comes to your mind and I see somebody else has joined so I'm sharing again the mirror link. And I, at least people who are not on mirror. Well what you can do in case you're joining us from a phone and you cannot go there you could also share what you would like to put on the mirror board with me in the chat, and I can put it up. What I see right now is difficult or a problem with multiple solution pathways. Oh, and it's an unknown field, it's difficult to understand takes time to understand and cross. What I see as well. Other star typing still. I have 10 people here so I do another friend everyone to me too many variables to manage too many moving parts. Let me see if I can put this in. Yes, so thank you channel and that's definitely also a possibility. Yes, I sent the link again and I'm happy to do that. I see. And I do another thing everyone to me don't be shocked that you are moved around but then you will find easier where we are. Okay, yeah with the chat that works so you just let me know what's possible that's strange why the link doesn't work. It works for some and there are more people who have joined I waited a little bit more often misuse let me see what I see here on the board. I see multiple issues problem space is not well defined to get a pinky here. Yes, you got that. Only someone understands it's not generic right so therefore it's also hard to, I don't know, have a recipe for it or something. I see the similarity I see there is the, the cause effect relationship. Yes, not understanding the picture is what I'm seeing over there. Currently what we are doing on neuro. That's what it is. It's fun yet complex. Maybe it is. Yeah, having real stickies and walking up to a board would be probably be easier. And we have one more here, which says, Richard organizational structure. Additional Iraq. Call. No room for experiment. Yes. What else. Is there anything else no clarity about the outcome is what I've missed so far and starting from scratch instead of following the best practice well probably the thing is there's maybe no best practice yeah we have emerging patterns. Okay, wonderful. So we leave it as that, and you can, of course, still go there maybe now that I have your attention at this moment for the mirror. I want to share something that might help you to navigate in the mirror. So what we have done is, we have provided a kind of an agenda which might help you to find spaces easier and this is if you click on the top right corner there's this little note thing. So at the moment see my share screen so it pops up the note here at the top right corner if you click on that, then you see a list of well actually it's the slides we are at so at the moment we are at your experience understanding of complexity. We now move on in our agenda, and we'll go to Snowden and Stacy, and I guess we have heard of them. And then you click that away. So only quickly because we also have heard merchant practice already that was one of the things you found out. Which is here the complex space that that's there. Then, and there's also obvious where the thing is we know it all and then we have complicated and chaotic. I assume a lot of you know about that and I don't want to really dive into Knephen or David Snowden's work. Actually I assume there are more sessions on that even. I only want to ensure you know that there are different understandings and also kind of approaches towards complexity and Snowden and Knephen is just one. Another one is right of Stacy which I also only want to cover only briefly, which is Stacy is saying there's no agreement and no predictability. And then this means chaos. So this refers to the chaos path in Snowden's world then complete agreement. And if there's predictability that's kind of the simple obvious path and complex means you can't know the cause and effect and only pattern so it's pretty related to Snowden's work. The thing that's most different to Snowden's works is that the probes start with reflexive inquiry and reflexes inquiry means we think about how we are thinking at first before we start doing something. So this is again only meant right now for you getting an idea that there is actually other stuff out there other people who have their thoughts around complexity so we have right now Snowden and Stacy and now I want to move on to again another model, which is from Glenda E. Young and for the people who are on the board I bring everyone to me so you have the same few here. HSD human systems dynamics has also an approach or a perspective on complexity and the perspective is that whatever you are looking at is defined by three things. The one thing is a container. So this is kind of the circles you are seeing here. So something that brings people together so it could be us 24 people being interested in complexity and that's why we are a container because we are all part of that workshop here. Then there is the bigger container which is maybe the actual India conference because all of the people there are interested in the stuff actual India is presenting. So this is kind of whatever brings people together in a team group something that's called a container in HSD. Then the second element of that perspective on complexity is differences. So what you already see inside the circles that are present here of what I'm sharing that there are things that are different. So we have that's represented in Iowa with triangles or circles or rectangles or squares or ellipses or whatever. So there are things how the elements of the people, although they are in a group in a team differ. So it could be like I am in Germany. I assume most of you are in India but then I know Debbie is in the UK. Hi, what all brings us together is that topic here or actual India, but still there are differences amongst us. And then so we have containers. That's kind of what brings us together, then there are still the differences and the third thing is the exchanges that are going on. So how do we interact with each other. So that's at the moment, very clearly it's more or less me talking Singapore or Sunil. Yeah, very good to see that. Cool. And that will change well and it has changed already on that other mirror board where you participated and brought your perspective on complexity on the ball. So that's a way of an exchange that we have experienced here. So containers differences, exchanges, and the thing is, what we want to explore here in this session, how can we make use of that perspective on complexity to maybe have a better handle on really dealing with it and doing whatever we think would help us so far. And yeah, so now coming to the tool, which is the difference and exchanges metrics that's also a tool by HSD. Well, you can it's maybe already in the name differences in exchanges so the thing that's missing are the containers and we come to them. So the metrics as you can see looks at the relation between differences in exchanges and looks if those are low, or if they are high and where how do they intersect here. And if we now go through that. So let's take the first look at we have low differences here, we have high exchanges, and that situation is called reinforcing. I bet you have seen that also in in groups, maybe with your friends, maybe even in your professional life in a team, which is kind of we, we reinforce the ideas that we are having somebody stating something and then the other one is building upon this so this is often also how you can hopefully see in this picture, which is often great fun and it also feels good. Let's go on so this was we have high changes low differences kind of the opposite now is we have high differences and low exchanges as in this picture here, where we have that bridal pair probably going to the church or somewhere I don't know and then we have that guy on the beach and the differences can almost not be bigger than that so they really have nothing to do with each other. So it's really high differences and there's also not really an exchange the only kind of exchanges that the guy on the beach is observing them or staring at them we don't know the private pair ignores the guy completely so there's really not anything going on. Sometimes actually my impression is, we have a little bit like that on distributed teams sometimes that we also look more into what differentiates us, and then not having enough exchanges that brings us together just trying to bridge to your context here how how you can think of using already that metrics. Now going on in the metrics. We have if we have no differences and low exchanges. That's called belonging, and sometimes my feeling is, if a couple is together for really long time then they hardly speak to each other anymore because they know what the other one is thinking. And as the question, are we looking at these humans as examples of systems, you can really think of it like that and systems really in all dimensions because, well, the whole thing comes from human systems. And so the thing is saying well it always gets complex if there are people. And so it's system refers to humans or to people and in all sizes so it can be like with the, the uncoupling the bridal pair. There are only three people, or my example before when I just refer to containers kind of us 25 together in that workshop. So it's. Yes, and it's small and big. The uncoupling where not a lot of exchanges are happening sometimes you also can see that somebody is starting a sentence and another one is finishing it because it's kind of a group think thing. Actually to be very clear here. Most often what we experience for load differences so no matter if it's the one on the top here the reinforcing on the bottom, the belonging. This really feels good. It's a very comfortable situation it's very convenient it's cozy it is nice to be there. Yet, always a bit forward looking already a bit forward looking. It's a difficult space for being innovative. It's a great space for feeling safe. But yeah, not so much for being creative and having like new ideas. Now for the last one that's still open here. That is called emerging. And so we have high differences here, high exchanges. So they, as like in that picture, they don't have a lot to do with each other like they're in completely different positions that's the differences but as you can see they have kind of a dispute going on so there are high exchanges that we are seeing here. Now one thing that's really important to understand is that none of these four places on the metrics is necessarily better than the other. One thing is, if you are at one place you need to understand is this the place that helps you in your context like the example if you build an innovative product. Maybe, if you are on the low different side, it will be really difficult to do so because you really need new ideas, new perspectives, new something. And you don't have that you have this reinforcing and belonging thing. And on the other hand, if you are more in a situation where things need to be stabilized, then having too many differences might hinder you to do so. And it also again, as I said earlier, it could also mean if the differences are too high that you don't feel safe really, because you feel lost, you are the only one having this perspective and everyone else you feel this kind of in a different way looking at things probably everyone else also thinks they are alone and having that perspective only. So, that's kind of the, yeah, the point where we are at. Now, the question is, if you, if you get an understanding where you are with your, for example, your team, your organization, or again it could be with friends, and you feel like, well, where you are is not really where you need to be because, for example, it's all reinforcing and it's nice, but we need to be innovative. What can you do, and that's the next thing I would like to look at now. And so we still stick to that metrics here and going to the next slide here. So, we still have these I use same pictures differences exchanges and want to look wonder through the metrics. So if you are in the reinforcing part, then the one thing that you can do is increasing the differences. So, of course, it could also mean you bring in other people, for example, for increasing differences, you can also think about asking for opinions, and maybe even stressing that with kind of, I don't know if you're aware of those facilitation techniques very can use. Well, sometimes literally or imagine only by matching nation at different heads where you're there ahead for well, being a negative on the subject matter or positive or you're looking for facts or you are a dreamer or whatever so there are like different facilitation techniques the one is called the Walt Disney strategy the other one is called the bono heads, maybe I put this at least. Yeah, in the chat, and you can look it up. And that's the one thing. And the other thing is, you can ask for opinions chess like, or like, what would it be if we do the absolute opposite of what we are talking here so kind of bringing out what could be different. And again, it could be also possible to just bring in other people here. And then, then if we think of uncoupling here, decreasing differences is a possibility by identifying similarities and creating common truth stories so this is something that I find always super helpful in those distributed teams as I mentioned before that sometimes are based here sometimes I feel companies are even stressing the differences or though everyone senses the differences already so then there are these, which is also good of course but it's also bad the culture trainings that that are going on. And I often think shouldn't we focus more on similarities than on differences and the similarities could be for example, well, the whole team is really interested in actual or maybe it is interested in whatever Java or whatever it is so looking more for similarities and for common truth stories there definitely it's retrospectives that help a lot. Then going further, belonging, you can increase the exchanges by using questions and stories and let me see what Narayan is asking stressing the difference is probably done without understanding the human systems and the differences yes maybe that's the case that it's more like oh we need to understand all those differences otherwise we will not get together and sometimes I believe this is done too much or it's over done and if because people don't understand the complexity at hand I guess you're right I hope I pronounce your name kind of good. Yeah, and the last part is emerging where you can think of decreasing exchanges by reflection by separation by rest well you know that if people have a dispute sometimes it's good to take a pre first to all breathe in breath out take a deep breath and then go on and maybe even separate and then get together again. Now, of course, at least I think of course but you can imagine if you are in, for example, the reinforcing field here, you can do either increase differences. Or you can also increase exchanges right so I didn't put up like everything that's possible on all the areas, but with uncoupling you can decrease the differences, but you can also increase exchanges here and so on. And I guess you understand any questions so far. And I've watched the chat as good as I can while doing this. And of course you can also unmute yourself and if you do have any questions. Okay. This is what I had as the general input. Oh, yeah, as a general input as maybe looking in a different way at complexity and the next thing that I would like to do with you is looking at the case study and then looking at how that metrics can be used to find out what could be a next step. So now looking at the chat here if we increase the insects population crops will go down the difference will increase if we increase fertilizing uses just as crops insects will die but it will affect the animals very good example that that is absolutely kind of also what HSD is sometimes presenting it and it's also used in biology in some of the studies here. The thing is really that these basically it's really the three elements so the containers which are here are represented in those pictures. And they are placed on the matrix depending on how low or high the differences are and how low or high exchanges are and yes it's all related it all depends on each other very true. Okay, let's move on now sharing that case study with you. So, the case study is I start here on the left just highlighting it right now. You have been called in as a change agent, helping a startup in the cryptocurrency space to become more agile, especially in terms of self organization and participation. People expect from you because you're an actual coach and so you, you know what's going on here. And you do meet the founder and CEO was the top manager, along with a senior executive who has introduced you to the organization, and you are received warmly so it's a nice welcome that you're experiencing there. And in preparing your proposal you meet some other senior executives and briefly a middle manager, who is the company's interface with the user community. And after you receive the contract your primary point of contact is the middle manager who is too busy to talk to you. So that's kind of the first situation that you are seeing here. And then what you observe is the following. So the top manager. She likes the idea of the change very much. Well, she, she had that year anyway to have more self organization and participation and being more agile, but she is too busy to talk or listen to you. Then we have the senior senior executives and they are in charge of various facets of operations from designing applications for the blockchain to developing the blockchain software to addressing social impact to handling regulatory concerns. Then there is the community here. And there are various troops with different interests. Some people are interested in the cryptocurrency to rise to the moon so make a lot of money. Others and vision saving the planet with the technologies of using blockchain for whatever. And then there are many people who have a startup idea and use the community as a platform with the hope of getting funded. And there are like one or three community people who have taken a leak. Then the last part here is the middle manager. He seemed to not have a say on the change you are called in to introduce, but would be impacted by it the most so the change was becoming more agile, especially in terms of self organization and participation. He's also super busy, it is hard to get hold of him and if you do, he keeps talking and never listens. You learn that this is also his way of leading his team. The middle manager is holding regularly a space for the community for sharing information and allowing a few community groups to share the ideas of progress. Now, but I would like you to do next and I would first like to do it a little bit by example. I've prepared this, well, difference metrics and a few questions, and you will also see the same thing just in a minute for what you are working on. And there first of all what you see on the top there's the link to the case study so you can then always go back. And then you are at that case study right if you want to reread something here. However, then you need to search back where you were coming from so better remember where you have been, but one word about that later on. So, what we are looking at at first is what containers are you seeing. And the containers that you are seeing, maybe, and I see somebody is maybe entering already something there's the top manager for example, it's fine you can enter something that's that's fine. Senior executives. There's a middle manager. I don't know I can't even say it's us, like the coaches consultants are also here for example. And then, if you think of what kind of differences do you see and maybe we just look at the middle manager for now. We know that the middle manager is super busy. Then we heard that the guy won't listen and it seems the guy doesn't listen also to like other people. Then, I don't know what else comes up with to you. Maybe not convinced about the change that could be also something right. So, whatever comes to your mind when you look at the story again. And then what kind of exchanges are present in the case studies. Well, it's the main context still staying with the middle manager, main contact to community yeah never listen is also an exchange that's true very good point here. Then the irregular meetings. I like that super right so you just kind of collect those things and you can focus on one of the containers people groups. Like, we've now used the middle manager but you can also use another one, and not right the community would be one and then collect stuff for for them as well. You might have seen as well sorry that there are also more stickies down there at the bottom of the corner. And now so we have answered question one to three. The question far as place the containers on the difference metrics and if I now take the middle manager. Oops, and think of where should the manager go. And kind of at least if I take the middle manager in relation to myself or to us as the one who should introduce actual and probably the differences are high and maybe the exchanges are low yeah we can and then you can do exactly what we see here you can put those exchanges and differences together to have a little bit better understanding what you were thinking, or whatever helps you there. And then based on where you have placed the container or containers. What do you recommend as a first step. And for thinking of recommendations what you can do again is go to the upper right corner to the notes. And then go again to changing differences and exchanges and look there. And see what is it well now we place the middle manager down here at the uncoupling so we know what we can do we can do decrease differences or we can increase exchanges so now it's about coming up with an idea for a first step. And then you can go back to your group. So, I would now go into breakout rooms. And I would think that maybe only go into two. Right. Yeah, just be with me while you chat. Yeah, well and don't send people now. I just want to know if there are any questions you're having and maybe a little bit again for that so first of all again at the top you have the link to the case study where you always can go back and check back what was it but it's also fine if you use what you remember it could be except it's more or less understanding how you can use that metrics for coming up with an idea of what could be a next step so it's more or less again making complexity a bit more better manageable or you are able to deal with it. Once you are in a breakout room, you are because we are having to only so you will be in breakout room one or two. And if you are in breakout room one, then the ball to would work on would be the one for group one. And if you are in breakout room to you would be include to so it's true one either here. So that will be this one, or you are include to and of course you can also always scale down and then find your place. And I also need to watch the time where are we. Yeah, so I think we take 15 minutes indeed, and I will also set the timer on the mirror ball. And I will definitely go around and see if I can help you but now any questions. I'm sharing once more the mirror ball link and I see people are afraid of doing some work. So I'm not traveling out which is fine. Of course, we are all here in this system because we want to be here or we don't. So, any questions. Christina here question, can we choose the same container or when we see for example in in group one that group two was quick and they have chosen the senior executive then we should choose someone else or that doesn't matter actually you whatever you, you can go with your flow what what where you feel you can add the most. Yeah, thanks. So it can be the same but it doesn't have to. Yeah, whatever. And stealing is fine. Right. Okay. I'm set up your time I'm going to open the rooms now and the rooms will automatically shut after 15 minutes and you'll get a 15 second warning when your room is about to close so have lots of fun. And we will see you on the other side. Right, and I will join you in one of the other crew. Okay, it looks like you're all back. I would like first to ask you and I don't know you can share it in the chat but I would also welcome it if you unmute yourself then. And I would like to know just how, how was that experience first of all, and actually maybe we do a quick round, and just kind of like one statement and I stopped with, if you're here at Julia. You can unmute yourself. Well, and that's actually I seems not to be here but not yet and you just amuse yourself you would be next anyway for me. Sure, yeah so I could see the, you know what are the systems and the dynamics, we couldn't really, I think we needed more time to understand better what needed to be done because I think that needs more analysis. Exactly. You know, so what are the containers what are the differences and what are the exchanges that needs a little bit of people thought discussion. Right, right. So that's just like one thing here already so I was wondering if we are looking for context you're in, or we are giving you a case study. So if you would be together as a team, you would have had all the same context that might have been easier but now you had to kind of, yeah, understand that case study as well first. So yeah, that's definitely a one thing I see Kavita said, fantastic. That's good. I see clear. Do you want to share. How was it. So the persona you picked was the CEO we, I would like to take a look at this, just in a minute or so. And you are, and maybe that's good too so you're sharing that already so the problem statement was availability in my interest in CEO for a step regular governance meeting. So I would like to take your observation, ask for feedback on the change agents progress and ask if we are aligned to their vision. Very good. Low difference, low exchange that was for the CEO. And it was in the same crew. So it seems kind of a similar thing. Actually, we took a person as change agent. And then we try to understand what are the interactions he has with you or she has with other manager middle manager or senior executive manager. We try to based on the observations you had shared we try to put it across in that matrix we try to place it in different zone and then try to see what are the differences or exchanges they have, and then try to come up with. We could not get time to come up with, we could come up with some recommendations like regular review meetings or continue follow up kind of thing. So that's what we could understand and come up. So, maybe because you're going and I see Kavita and Sudarshan saying already they're in the same kind of same. Share mirror again and we take a look I think you have been in group two, and then we take later on another look into group one so that's for the others. It's clear. Do you want to talk us through. And maybe I make the metrics a bit better. Can you see this way. Yes, we can see. So what I see you have put the top manager as high exchange is low differences the community where everything is high I see seniors, everything senior executives everything is low and middle manager. Hi differences low exchanges. So, the, well the one thing is what I mean to say was it hard to place the different people or groups in the different areas. And now that we know we can hear you Yogesh maybe you want to. So first we concentrated on the middle manager because he has to directly report to him, we found out what are the differences, the change agent and middle manager has. So then we try to, it was easy to place in there, where the differences are right but the exchanges would be less, although the manager is not listening but he's busy but they will have more exchanges right so that's what we placed there. And the top manager was one of the one who recommended this idea of change agent and where we placed the differences are less but the exchanges are more exchanges are less but the differences are less so we placed placed him in the above and the left top okay. And senior executives what we understand is we might be wrong so we understood that the differences are the, because they are working on the execution part so and coming up with the software and all so we thought there is low interaction and low exchanges so we placed him there. And the last one community, the community and community are different kind of ideas and they, they are different, they have different kind of ideas and they wanted some wanted a startup some wanted like saving the planet they wanted. I return so they're like the differences were right and and the exchanges were also high so that's right. Right. Okay, so you found actually even yeah people for all the areas in the metrics. Actually, you said this one point by you don't know if it's right. Actually, I think this is not so important if it's right or not it's a kind of a thing if you are in a situation it's what you are observing. And how it looks to you, because also if you are looking at a complex situation. This is always complex from a given perspective as well. And, and therefore there's not really a right or wrong, but what you can then do and I see Sudash and you're saying well it was fun but we ran out of time. Then the next thing would based on where you think that crew team is coming up with an idea what you can try as a first step and then see if it helps you. Getting into a different position where you can make easier progress. Right. And yes of course it's it's always probably that the time is too short for everything. Anything else to add here. Yeah. So I just wanted to see if this is something similar to stakeholder mapping like a parallel method. For instance, is that is that right. Hi, well, you. I would say you can use this also for stakeholder analysis. However, it's not necessarily stakeholders. It was just like in this case we used it like these were all stakeholders. I guess what we are looking at. Yeah, maybe the community not well but they are still as well. You see it for all kinds of situations you are seeing and and maybe you remember when I was talking you through the matrix I was also just saying well if you are on your team. Maybe you can also think of where are we with that team in which area what do we need and maybe where we are it's it's exactly right for the context we are in for the product we are creating, but maybe not. And then you can think of what can you do in order to move to a different area on the matrix. So, it's a yes and answer. Okay, so maybe we take another look at the group one. And here we see already that's highlighted here the problem statement that was also put in the chat before. Yeah, and, but you said was you have been taking one of the containers, the CEO, and then you came up with like availability is probably the thing then the blessing introduction meeting. It's welcoming. And not part of the solution doesn't feel the need to be involved very true. Yeah. And so your idea was to share those observation and asking for feedback. Did you say asking for feedback that this is that you provide feedback as a change agent. I don't know. However, it's increasing the exchanges definitely kind of the thing that it's coming here. Ask the CEO for feedback. Thank you. And, and again, it's mainly as a step for increasing the exchanges because what you realized was with the CEO the problem is that the exchanges are too low maybe that the differences are low is not, not any problem here, and which is absolutely fine. So the thing is you look where where the container is and then come up with an idea of what needs to be done in order to get to a space where you can make your next move. The next question would be now. First of all, can you can you see this could help you. Can you think of using it, or is this too abstract for you, or maybe not enough experience now with this one session or and maybe for doing so. You can also already go here to reflection and next step so you would need to come back to the mirror ball but you can also again type it in and I type it for you. Definitely useful, but it needs, but it is a skill that needs to be practiced well probably like, like everything right that if you see a technique the first time and remember at the beginning I said well it's an approach but it's also a tool and what you need to practice with that's true. Maybe I put this also here and if you want to join me on the ball and putting what are your key insights and just put it here. Oops. The wrong thing here. I want to. Oh I like that yeah doing this at regular intervals. Can we put this already pre at the next steps maybe half. I know it's a shoot, but still I put it there. I'm pretty much. Ah, you edit even better. Very good. Very good you edit. While you're typing, but I really like about it, compared to Kenneth and or Stacy, the HSD has way more very simple practical tools that you can just use. And that's that's a, I think a really nice thing and still yeah, they need to be practice that's I agree. So what do we have a yoga says a methodical way to identify the complexity and how we can resolve with different personas. Yeah. And I want to slightly correct, because well it's a one way it's personas but it's, it's the real people whereas personas is something that you make up and and you could also use it for that of course. And we have here system thinking I will also take away and check all this strategy and HSD. Excellent. That's good. Really good. And yeah, you put in doing it at regular intervals to see if the differences and exchanges have moved from last time exactly so you see if whatever step you took, made a difference exactly. And create learning on viewing everything as a system container in HSD. Yes. Right. Right. Anything else that comes to your mind. A few people typing. Similar to actual health checks. Well, the thing is, the different metrics does not say the one place is healthier than the other because it all depends on context. It's, it's not touching. It's more an observation thing and then you're the one touching if this is the right place. We'll discuss with team on the HSD tech and how we can apply in our project. Yay. That's good. Is there anything that I missed a methodical way to identify the, the stakeholders. Yeah. There's one more typing templates would be helpful. Maybe what's after the B. Well, maybe you have the link now to the mirror balls you can use that perhaps as a template. Good. I suppose if this is what you have to share. There we are right now. And therefore I know there's a little bit time left but I think that's also fine. In case you have any more question you can ask them right now this is the time to ask the questions, because otherwise I will close that session in a few minutes. And for while you might have a question so I really want to thank you also in the name of john here. And actually HSD is also a thing that we have covered a lot in our bossa nova book. And by the way it's also available in India, both at Amazon but also notion press which might be cheaper I guess. And yeah, thank you so much for coming. And I hope really you can use it. Just want to check if there's anything else that I missed here now. So, um, you're so thank you so much for a fascinating session. Yeah, why everyone and thank you so much for coming and playing with me here.